What does it mean? Why not 'Pictish' music? What kind of music did the Celts actually play? Use of the term 'Celtic' seems to me to be feeble attempt to encompass a wide variety of the music from those islands across the English channel from the continent.
I've taken to calling it 'North Atlantic Trad' when I want to be inclusive. That would encompass fiddle music from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Northumberland, Newfoundland, & P.E.I.
Go back to The Dead and The Mothers. If you start looking for celtic music you might possibly start listening to Enya and that's not recommended. Even worse, a celtic chill-out CD might miraculously appear in your player and cause your friends to slay you.
I'm not sure if this post was directed at my previous post but as it is the first discussion straight after mine and references the word Celtic which i used im going to assume that it is. Im sorry if i offended you by using this word as it was truely not my intention to cause any offence in my post. You are right it probably was a feeble attempt to encompass a wide variety of music but i honestly didnt think too much about my use of the word, so for this i apologize. Thank you for bringing this to my attention and yes calling it 'North Atlantic Trad' is probably more fitting and will try use that from now on. Once again, sorry. Cheers
It's just that the word Celtic has been used in so many contexts that jar to us players of the music.
Enya, anything Scottish or Irish 'touristy' with Book of Kells lettering and knotwork, isn't there some cheesy band calling itself 'Celtic Women' or something ? Etc.........
All this gives us a bad name when we just want to play the tunes.
Otherwise it would be fine.
Except, do you pronounce it Seltic or Keltic ? There's another can of worms.
North Atlantic Trad? So, if we all got together and formed an organisation, then it would be: NATO
Next thing ye know, we'd be trying to undermine the UN!!
Around here, fiddle music is either "Celtic" or "bluegrass." Drives me nuts. I have found that it is labeled as such by people that don't know any better. Then there are those that think "jazz" should only refer to bebop.
I use the term celtic music often to describe the type of music I play, the reason being that I live in northern Ireland and usually when you mention Irish Traditional music, people immediately assume that you are a Wolfe Tones cover band. I once went to a session in Belfast and all it was was people singing rebel songs all night, with one or two hornpipes thrown in for good measure
I once heard the Smothers Brothers jokingly refer to old-time folk music as "Apple-Chain Music" (Appalachian Music) as part of their act at a night club. This was before their infamous television show on CBS (Columbia Brainwashing System).
Sometimes the lines between different types and styles of music are kinda blurry with one type or style blending easily and smoothly into another.
Ah right, If it helps you get your head straight over here in Scotland the word Celtic is used allot to describe the variety of music we are talking about and has even found itself used in one of the the biggest music festivals in Scotland called Celtic Connections. Celtic is not only used in music but to describe the Irish, Scottish, Welsh etc people and languages. I suppose this word can mean different things to diffferent people but the understanding of it i think is universal. Hope this helps
Celtic music is a fine term since it just means music from peoples who speak (or who recently spoke) Celtic languages. i.e., Ireland, Scotland, Isle of Man, Wales, Cornwall, and Brittany. (Some people try to lump in a kind of Spanish traditional music from Galicia as Celtic too, but given that there has been no Celtic language spoken there since roughly 1900 years ago, I think that’s a bit of a stretch!) The Celtic language group has very distinctive characteristics, and so labelling music according to the common linguistic heritage hardly seems out of order. In the same way, in Donegal many of the old people refer to Irish and Scottish music collectively as “Gaelic music”.
And in reply to Guernsey Pete's comment on the pronunciation of the word “Celtic”: It's Celtic with a hard C (K-sounding). (The S-pronunciation is simply a mistake.) In Goidelic Celtic languages (Irish, Scottish and Manx Gaelics) the ‘C’ is always hard.
Rhychwar - clearly you know little of the history of the region of NW Europe sometimes marked on maps as the "British Isles".
The original inhabitants of several parts of NW Europe - the so-called "British Isles" and also NW France - (e.g. Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany etc) were descended from the Celts.
Although the languages of the those regions then developed separately, they still retain much in common. Breton, for instance, had a 50% correlation with Welsh.
The English language, on the other hand, has Roman, Scandanavian, Germanic and French roots , following the invasions of the Romans, the Vikings, the Danes, the Angles, the Saxons and the Normans. Although Celts also lived in the region now known as England, they were largely driven out by the invaders.
The music of the Celtic / non-Celtic regions of the British Isles also developed separately. There are thousands of English trad tunes, but you certainly wouldn't describe many of them as being "Celtic".
Celtic, incidentally, is always pronounced with a hard "c" - unless your are referring to the Glasgow football club of that name, which is for some mysterious reason is always pronounced "Seltic".
"Setlic" is a Glasgow football (soccer) team. "Keltic" is anything else. I don't use the word to describe The Music, neither does anyone else I know on this half of the Atlantic but lots of people in America called it "Celtic" music.
I will however use the word Celtic in my academic writing because I am looking in part at 18th and 19th century constructions of Scottish Highland and Lowland identity and culture. 18th and 19th C writers differentiated the Highlands and Islands from the Lowlands and most of England as "Celtic" or "Gaelic" and fit it neatly into the whole British discourse of race and empire. I am not sure when people start using those words to describe the Highlanders and Islanders but I suspect it's around the time of the Lords of the Isles losing political power to the Stuarts. That's at least when Highland-Lowland divisions became more and more entrenched. Certainly in the 18th and 19th centuries the Highlands were characterized by many British and Scottish politicians, writers, etc. as a massive social problem and potentially dangerous (although some writers had the opposite view and wrote about how the Highlands were far healthier for mind and body than sites of urban decay like Glasgow and Edinburgh). At the same time intellectuals from the Enlightenment on were fascinated by how "different" it was from the urbanized, industrial regions of Scotland and quite a few people traveled around the Highlands as folklore collectors, writing anthropological accounts about the superstitions and habits of Highlanders and Islanders. These are described as Celtic or Gaelic and not only by Lowlanders. Some of the collectors were Highlanders and Islanders themselves and contributed to the discourse of two separate cultures/races in Scotland. In any case, it is useful to present the idea that a separate Celtic culture is a construct that emerged from 15th and 16th century politics but use it since it makes sense when writing about certain ideas specific to the people who lived in those regions.
Interesting that you use language as the defining characteristic of what is Celtic, Mix, considering the language that is most widely spoken in Ireland and Scotland is English.
The modern idea of 'Celiticism' is one of those dodgy Nineteenth Century inventions related fairly closely to eugenics, and something very closely related to British imperialism of that period. Anyone who thinks that 'Celtic' is a marketing term is right - it was originally used, in the context of the British Isles and Ireland, as a means to market an idea of Britishness, and the characteristics of the British race as inherently superior to the 'dark races'. The dash of 'Celtic' added romance, ingenuity, and spirit to the indomitable mixture of strength, determination and dogged courage that was the predominant feature of the Teutonic and Norman 'blood' that forged an Empire. All twaddle of course.
The 'Celts', in archaeological terms are the bronze age peoples of the region that now comprises Switzerland, Germany, and northern France. In linguistic terms it's those who speak Goidelic Celtic languages, such as the Irish, Scotish and Manx, and those who speak Brythonic Celtic languages, such as the Welsh, Cornish and Bretons. In reality, the English are part of this group, most Britons adopting the languages of the Saxon and Norman invaders over time. The southern English are more likely to share a strong genetic inheritance with these invading groups, but they're still largely 'Celtic' in terms of genomes.
The group of people who share most genomes with the bodies found in Celtic burial sites in La Tene (the defining archaeological site when it comes to Celtic remains) are actually Bavarians, according to recent research.
Most notions of 'Celticism' are just nonsense, really. The idea of a particular shared ancestry between Scots, Welsh, Irish, Manx, Cornish and Breton to the exclusion of the English, French, Swiss, German, Dutch etc. is not tenable. If it's there, its linguistic, rather than genetic, and considering that linguistic change is principally a social phenomenon, it makes little sense to continue using it as a notion of 'racial' identity, whatever that is.
It still works as a flawed means to define diddley, though it's a shame that it means good diddley gets mixed into the swill of 'Celtic Mood' music and suchlike.
"Why Celtic music" - So that you can identify people who don't know the difference between, or can't be bothered to distinguish, Scottish and Irish music etc.
A valuable term therefore.
Oh, I agree that the idea of a separate Celtic race is untenable but if you are looking at social practices, than the linguistic differentiation between Gaelic speakers and Scots speakers and English speakers is of fundamental importance.
"Celtic" was a very in word, I think, among cultural types in the late c19, who were fascinated by what was left of the Gaelic and Welsh-speaking cultures. I think the literature, folk-lore and and art were more gone into than the music, though - at any rate by outsiders to these cultures. It took the insider O'Neill - whether or not he knew Gaelic - to do this effectively - though I admit I don't know about Petrie or how significant his collection was.
The North Atlantic Trad idea is not at all bad: it implicitly recognises North America's importance in the world of Irish and UK trads and their derivatives and followers. But then, Norway's North Atlantic, too...
How about MAD - Modal And Diatonic... These are the characteristics which I believe set apart trad in the era of Classical dominance: musically (leaving aside for now its social connotations) it was archaic, and was neither easily assimilable by mainstream music nor able to assimilate very much of this in turn. The two streams seem to run surprisingly separately through the modern era.
Gregorian Trad?... European Catholic church music must have laid down the base for a good deal of the trad musical tradition - though I know nothing about how secular and /or Gaelic music might have developed or survived independently of church musical norms or regulation.
It was invented by American marketing executives so they could sell music from the western extremities of Europe. As someone said, we don't know what music the Celts played, if they played any.
People who play Irish traditional should it call it 'Irish traditional music', or 'Welsh/Breton/Scottish traditional music' as the case may be. There seems to be a desire to give the music a certain 'New Age' aura which it never had to begin with. The likes of Johnny Doherty, Julia Clifford or Matt Molloy are certainly a long way from Enya or Liverdance. They would be totally mystified at the 'Celtic' label.
Anyone who refers to 'diddley music' should not be taken too seriously. This is a derogatory term employed by Irish people who despise traditional music. It is akin to calling jazz 'N***er music'.
So, lets be proud to call it Irish traditional music and forget all the dewy-eyed American 'Celtic' nonsense!
"It was invented by American marketing executives so they could sell music from the western extremities of Europe. As someone said, we don't know what music the Celts played, if they played any."
No, while "Celtic" certainly is an invented term and identity, it wasn't American marketing executives who invented it. As I said above, it was used heavily in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to describe Ireland, parts of Scotland and presumably parts of Wales. Those American marketing executives have tapped into archetypes that have been around for upwards of 20 years.
I use the term *trad* on this board to appease everyone. Given certain past discussions there are many reasons to object to the term. However, no one has yet communicated in a single world what it is I play in session when the session includes tunes from Ireland, Scotland, Breton, (U. S. & Canada). I will use the word trad & that all I need. It is very unlikely I will object to anyone using the term celtic.
Cheers!
SS wrote:
" it was used heavily in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to describe Ireland, parts of Scotland and presumably parts of Wales. "
-as evidenced by such 19th century literary/cultural movements as the 'Celtic Twighlight' ...Yeats and Lady Gregory and their like who championed a certain kind of Irish culture and view of that culture...& most of whom were Anglo Irish strangely enough...I think much of what they wanted was to displell the racist 'stage irish' stereotype which by then was firmly in place
Is there a schedule that this thread comes out every so often??
Celtic is what they do on PBS to provide a portion of unwashed masses with some government agency somewhere's established minimum daily requirement of music in 6/8 by bodhran players with ponty tails in dago tees, and comely young lasses in evening gowns. I think we have all agreed at this juncure how significant this is in maintaining awareness in the proletariat of the cultural importance of our timeless art form.
The other group that seems to use the phrase 'Celtic' are the churchies I work with who have St. Pat's Liturgies penciled in on their calendars to remind them to go out and find a token piper, box player and violinist willing to make believe he/she is a fiddler to play Irish esque stuff written by the church music mill in Chicago.
Diddley isn't fundamentally derogatory. It's a more useful distinction than 'Celtic' music. I use it to differentiate between Irish music (diddley-dee), and English music (rumpty-tumpty).
This does come up every so often - anyone have the references to earlier threads ?
I refer everyone to the excellent series on the history of Scotland currently being broadcast on one of the terrestial channels here in the UK. Interestingly, Scotland is so called because it is where the Duns Scotae ( ?sp? ) settled, they being a tribe from Ireland, and the Highland gaelic is referred to in John Prebble's excellent book on Culloden and the Highland Clearances as Irish - the lairds might have been literate and multilingual but their clan members only spoke Irish. Which was banned for generations after Culloden as an act of imperialism.
In his introduction for Alain Stivell's first concert performance at the Royal Festival Hall many years ago, Karl Dallas said that at one time one could travel over much of Europe speaking some form of Gaelic. Well, maybe, and maybe not. The Celtic Twilight has a lot to answer for.
Passionate disagreements over word usage are neither unique to the Irish nor to those giddily sludging Irish DNA around elsewhere.
My lawyer/barrister/driver says many of his fellow Navajo find the very word "bin-kie-jinh-jih-dez-jay" (which means "offensive") to be an offensive word in and of itself. So they refrain from calling anything "bin-kie-jinh-jih-dez-jay." Therefore, nothing is offensive except the word that describes offensiveness.
Are words as painstakingly parsed by most members of, say, the Havasupai, Yavapai, or Hualapai tribes? No. No, they are not.
I don't use the "c" word much but it is at least more descriptive than words for other music genres, like "heavy metal". Now that really is meaningless.
Well I have no problem with the term 'Celtic' to describe the music. It is a term used a lot in Scotland and I am sure further afield to describe the music of the 'Celtic peoples' - and whilst the links between the modern Celtic nations of Scotland (the whole of Scotland), Wales, Ireland, Cornwall, Brittany and Mann and the original central European Celtic peoples may be largely linguistic and of course archaeological rather than actual clearly defined genetics that is no reason for the term not to be used. There have been huge cultural interchanges as well as movements of people between all these nations over the past couple of thousand years and clear and strong links between the music.
To call it Pictish music would not suffice because the Irish were not Picts and, in fact the term only really ever applied to the unconquered peoples to the north of the Antonine Wall. Those south of the wall were Britons - although they were arguably, historically the same people.
The Bretons were were the people living in North-West France whose ancestors came across from Britain at an earlier point and took the name with them - many of them then went back with the Norman Invasion of England in 1066 (the Normans were originally Scandanavian settlers in what is now called Normandy - but that is another story).
You may not get many folk in sessions here describing the music they are playing as Celtic music as such as they would probably just say they were playing tunes or Scottish/Irish music - but that does not mean that the term is immediately recognisable and understood for what it means.
People need to get off their high horses and just relax a little about the whole thing.
Alistair
P.S. I would hate to think that the subject I spent years studying at University got its name because of over-eager American marketing executives or Nineteenth Century romanticists.
I wonder to what extent diatonic and modal folk/trad, with roots in pre-Classical music, is a continuum from IR /UK eastward across Europe, bounded by Moorish / Arab / Byzantine / Turkish traditions in the South and East. I've heard rather little Continental folk to go on, but it includes a lot of Scandi tunes just like English ones and French ones that are just like IR / UK ones in the modes used. I know very little about Mediaeval music, but wonder whether its building-blocks - the ones trad rested on, anyway - were not substantially the same across Western Europe.
I see the trad of the UK nations and Ireland as being very much one entity, with musical forms and structures in common and very many shared tunes. I think a pervasive and inclusive Classical tradition ran it very thin in England but left it alone in Ireland, where it was not so pervasive and by no means inclusive - sizeable communities were marginalised, and the trad remained their music. (Don't get me wrong about the Classical music tradition in Britain: I admire and like it. I want to enjoy and appreciate both!)
clear and strong links between the music?! I call bullsh*t. There may be clear and strong links between scottish and irish, but I'm not convinced by any link with welsh that excludes english or any link with breton which excludes the rest of France or scandinavia.
There have also been studies by ethnomusicologists who have come to these conclusions - and are the main foundation of my opinion.
I am beginning to enjoy taking a 'dark side' perspective to these threads.
Alistair
I think the issue in your PS has to do with the horse and cart ordering.
The topic was totally appropriate and proper for your studies. The American Marketing execs just have a knack of stealing ideas, beating the to unrecognizable pulps, mercilessly overmarketing them and then leaving them for the next 'hot' topic.
Actually, 'Celtic' is well off the radar of most Americans after its fleeting fame. Replaced by Indian slum kid movies. I just don't know how they will mass market Indian food. (It is wonderful if you appreciate it, but not for the collective pallete of the Western masses)
I would disagree that the modal musics of France are similar to those of ireland. French music is much more based on the bagpipes and tends to only span an octave and a 5th, to have the same root note whether in majorish or minorish - unlike irish with a clear Emin/Dmaj kind of duality, to have very few mixolydian tunes and to include modes not found in irish music.
"Celtic" on a CD means either it's New Age noodling from the USA, or
Scottish tunes with a synthesizer and cello in the background.
However I think Gerry 'fiddle' O'Connor and Tommy Peoples can truly be called Celtic in the undegraded sense of the word - the way they cross national boundaries with their respective styles.
The term "Celtic" has a long and honorable history in comparative linguistics, and properly describes a group of related Indo-European languages (including Irish, Scots Gaelic, Welsh, Breton, etc.). It wasn't just a romantic.imperialist invention, though it does date back to the 19th century. What we call "Celtic" music is the music of peoples who live in places with a recent Celtic linguistic background. But there isn't much basis for saying that the music itself was the kind of music the original Celts had -- we don't really know anything about real Celtic music, and in fact we don't know very much about their language either.
‘…while "Celtic" certainly is an invented term and identity…’
First of all, all terms are invented! ‘Celt’ is, I believe, a term invented by the ancient Greeks, and used extensively by the Romans. Terms are generally invented because they do some useful work in classification. The reason terms come into common usage is that (in general) they pick out natural groups, the members of which share common features. There is a distinction between ‘self-identification’ and the use of terms in the context of scholarship. Few 18th century Irish or Scottish Gaels would have identified their culture as Celtic, but few would have known that their common language belonged to the Celtic branch of Indo-European. Their languages were, nevertheless, Celtic.
“Interesting that you use language as the defining characteristic of what is Celtic, Mix, considering the language that is most widely spoken in Ireland and Scotland is English.” –Robert Ryan’
It’s interesting that ‘Robert Ryan’ dismisses the “common linguistic heritage” of various Celtic nations in virtue of their being dominated by the British Empire and its language. Traditional Irish music is the traditional music of the Gaelic speaking Irish. Traditional Scottish music is the traditional music of the Gaelic speaking Scottish people (even the music of the Borders is largely derived from Gaelic musical culture.) If the term ‘Celtic’ is not palatable to some hereabouts, perhaps we can at least use the term ‘Gaelic Music’ for Irish, Scottish, and Manx music.
The idea that the shared language and culture of the originators of the music is now irrelevant to the music’s classification, due to the violent suppression of both Irish and Scots Gaelic by the Empire, is really quite offensive!
Yeah, gw it doesn't matter. It's only because of the record companies
that the word is annoying, as Guernsey Pete and strayaway implied.
I don't want to be connected with that stuff
"Record companies"? They seem to label almost everything in this category as Folk, World, or Ethnic. "Trad" to many people means Dixieland jazz.
If someone asks me what I play, I usually reply "Celtic".
If they are still interested, I will explain further. Because I am almost equally interested in Irish, English, and Scottish music, including the variations found in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, but haven't pursued Welsh, Breton, or Galician, I don't have a better short description, and I think it pointless to launch into a wordy qualification when the polite enquirer has already switched off.
"Ah right, If it helps you get your head straight over here in Scotland the word Celtic is used allot to describe the variety of music we are talking about and has even found itself used in one of the the biggest music festivals in Scotland called Celtic Connections."
Athough English may be the most widely spoken language in Ireland, Scotland and Wales today, that was not formerly the case. You only need to look at the place names on maps of those areas to understand that.
The language of those regions (and some parts of England and France) all derive from Celtic. Take for example, the English word "black"
Irish : dubh
Scots Gaelic: dubh
Welsh : du
Breton :du
Cornish : du
I don't use the term "Celtic music" myself, but if someone else used it I would take it to mean music from those regions whose previously widely spoken language derived from Celtic. And those regions don't include England.
Which is why the expression "North Atlantic trad" is ridiculous.
The connection between language and culture (which would include music) is admittedly somewhat tenous, and difficult to prove. However, my heart tells me that there must be some connection.
The big difference between "Celtic" music (diddley, if you like) and English music (umpty dumpty, if you like) would seem to suggest though that there is some connection between language and music.
"Celtic" is a handy grab-all term and as has been repeatedly stated above, many people in Scotland are happy enough to use it to encompass the varieties of music they play, including music of Shetland which is arguably more Nordic than Celtic.
There may be more accurate terms but they are not going to serve the purpose of being a) concise and b) widely understood.
The fact that there is some wafty ambient stuff out there called Celtic by "record companies" (I think some are overestimating their influence - anyway, it's dwindling rapidly) is neither here nor there
Mix- i like your theory, but i don't think it travels well. i mean most of what we call "mountain music" here is based in scottish and irish music. And thuogh the dialect can be very thick, it's still English. I'm sure it would interest you to know (if you son't already) there was a sizeable settlement os Gaelic-speaking Highlanders in the Cape Fear region of Southeastern North Carolina. They wore kilts and all and thrived for a few generations: http://www.northcarolinahistory.org/
www.northcarolinahistory.org/encyclopedia/110/entry
to be more specific. i still don't get this "link" thing...
except youtube. one of my fav mountain tunes, by some young "fogies": http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=sfTFBtvIcSY
Pipes - the linguistic part of what I said was factual - not theory!
As we all know, the immigants from Europe (including those from Scotland and Ireland) took their music with them, although much of this developed into new forms, such as the "mountain music" that you mention.
Since many of the immigrants were English speaking at the time of their immigration, it's hardly surprising that their descendants are still speaking a form of it today.
Whilst I'm aware that there are many forms of American "traditional" music e.g. "mountain", Cajun etc. I wouldn't attempt to classify it, as my knowledge on the subject is very much incomplete.
For the same reason , I think that Rhychwar was ill-advised to come up with the term "North Atlantic trad", as it shows (amongst other things) that he knows little or nothing about English traditional music (the latter being very different from Irish or Scottish trad).
I've often heard the term "old-timey" used in connection with American traditional music. Does this mean the same as "mountain music" - or is that a different form?
(If responding, some examples of tune names and their "classicifation" might be useful).
Every word is a blend of two denotations:
a) similarities between what the word applies to
b) differences from what the word does not apply to.
But a word also has connotations, and these can be many.
All of these elements can be discussed and the discussion never ends, because the denotation is never perfect (not all ITM is the same, for instance), and the connotations always fuel the discussion with some sort of emotional engagement.
When it comes to music, applying names to it often seem to steal its soul. Take "classical music" as an example. Genres are there for music historians and critics to have something they can sell as science. I don't want to contribute to that.
I've always considered the terms synonymous, although mountain music doesn't seem to get used as much nowadays. Except by some of the people who play it! If you wanted to skin it a bit thinner, I suppose you could argue that old-timey refers to rural music, even down in the hollers and the flatlands, but since it's in the more remote mountainous areas that this music has survived, it has become by de facto mountain music.
Granted, I don't live in Scotland, but I lived there for a while and have been going back for 25 years, and I've never heard anyone describe their music as "Celtic". My friends there know perfectly well what's Scottish, what's Irish, and what's Shetland (actually more "nordic", as Bren said). They might play at "Celtic" music festivals, but that's because that's where the work is, not because they identify themselves as "Celtic" artists. If they use any kind of descriptor at all, they'll usually just say they play traditional music. And here's a Shetland tune. And this is an old Scottish song. And play us an Irish tune, maybe we'll know it (and usually they do).
It's a marketing term, pure and simple. Some of us are old enough to remember record stores---the good ones always had large sections devoted to all the major genres---jazz, country, gospel, Celtic, etc. And the ones with the real music geeks would break down those sections further, so the Celtic section would have subsections for Irish, Scottish, Welsh, etc. It was great when you wanted to go buy a record, you knew exactly where to look. And then the music promoters started presenting "Celtic" festivals. Again, a great thing---at one festival, you could see an Irish band, some Scottish pipers, and lots of mixtures who played a bit of everything. Which is fine, it was an avenue for the music, a way of bringing it to larger audiences and helping it to grow. (and then it grew in weird directions, but that's another topic)
The unfortunate result of all this marketing, though, is that the general public started to get the impression that it's all "Celtic"---they lost the ability to make the distinctions between one genre and another. So now you get people who start learning to play and want to know how they can learn "Celtic" "songs"---usually by themselves, at home, from a book.
I tell people I play Irish fiddle. They usually have some vague idea of what that means. They know it's not bluegrass. I don't mention that I also play some Scottish tunes, because that would get me the deer-in-the-headlights look. But that's okay. I don't have to educate everyone I meet. But I'll be dam*ed if I'm going to tell people I play "Celtic" music.
Nicholas - as you say, the Irish Scottish and English traditions do have some tunes in common, owing mainly to travel of people between those countries. But is that sufficient reason to lump them together?
Consider what can happen if you go to an Irish session (in England, at any rate) and play an English tune. The chances are that no-one will join in with you. You might even get glared at!
Even if no-one there has ever heard the tune before, the structure and style of the tune would in most cases be enough for them to tell them that the tune was English in origin!
Mix and fidkid- i would say you're about right there. old-time music can be found indigenously all over the US in different styles. Much of it is derived from "mountain" music in some way
- "mountain music" is what the mountain people here in south central Appalachia call their traditional music
But Mix - if you tweaked and slightly modified the same English tune up into an Irish-style 4/4 hornpipe or polka or reel or jig, it might well pass for an Irish one in an Irish session, or be adequate to go in a ceilidh set. The bar structure, rhythm and mode / scale / key of the tune would very likely be parallelled in Irish music already. Playing speeds, styles, purposes of music, certain instruments - yes, different from Ireland, or less typical or usual there; 3/2s nearly absent from Ireland - and so on; but I still think the basic components of the music in UK and IR have a great deal in common, even if one can distinguish "typical" English and Irish music sharply and immediately when they're played.
Being from North Dakota (very flat), I've never heard Old-Time referred to as "mountain" music. One can go to "Old-Time" contests, but the winners are playing in what's called Texas Contest Style (which isn't every old at all), and then there are those that call it all Bluegrass, although it isn't.
I guess that's what happens when mere humans try to put a handle on something; sometimes it gets confusing.
Nicholas - I can see your point, and understand what you mean about "tweaking" etc.
But ever been to one of those what I would call "hard-core" Irish sessions in England? Some of those folks will put their instruments down in disgust even if you start what they would consider to be a "nursery" Irish tune - such as Merry Blacksmith or Tobin's Favourite.
I don't think that your idea would work in such places!
Maybe, Mix! But that strikes me as a boredom or intolerance factor at work, determining which tunes are "in" and which are "out". Sessions define their clan repertoire (!), newbie tunes arouse impatience, all the rest of it - quite understandable, and to be sussed out and handled carefully by sensible newbies and visitors - even if (hopefully) it isn't written in stone.
Some English music sessions might have the same aversion to Irish tunes or to elementary English tunes. (Though I've had the impression in the past that a number of Engtrad musos have had a significantly higher threshhold of boredom when it comes to dag tunes than many Irtrad ones!...)
I agree with that last impression Nicholas, which is a real shame. Too many people seem to think that English trad. is limited to dull Morris tunes in D and G, and they seem largely unaware of the wealth of beautiful, exciting tunes available in all shapes, sizes, rhythms and modes. Long live Playford, and long live 3/2s...
Certainly, nicholas and Robert Ryan - all the traditions have good tunes - and quite a few bad ones as well!
My favourite local session is a "mixed" one: Irish, Scottish, English - also tunes from other counties. Plenty of songs as well, in the breaks between session playing. And even the occasional humerous poem or monologue. On Monday this week (the day after Burn's night) someone gave us a rendering of a Burn's poem.
This session attracts quite a high number of foreign visitors - musicians, singers and people who just come to listen.
This combination of regulars and vistors from all over the world promotes great diversity - every week is enjoyable, and no two weeks are ever the same.
"even the occasional humerous poem ..."
Mix O'Lydian, in some sessions that would get you the elbow.
Nordic music? I used to explain my mountain recreation as "Nordic skiing" which usually drew blank looks. "Cross-country skiing" gave most people an inkling of what I was talking about, but is not accurate, at least in these parts.
"Some of us are old enough to remember record stores"
At one time, kennedy, much of indigenous American music was sold under the categories of Race, Country, or Square Dance. Jazz meant Paul Whiteman, not Louis Armstrong, because Armstrong could be found under Race.
But if you get the idea where to look, what does it matter (at least for organizational purposes)? Is the music store manager going to create a new category and take the Irish Traditional music (if any) out of the World section?
"I simply play - what? The whistle."
Don't you then have to explain what a "whistle" is, de facto, and if "clarinet" or "recorder" gain recognition, further explain why you don't play those instruments? And then still explain what kind of music you play?"
Celtic? I guess it will serve as well as anything else. No term I can think of is inclusive enough to serve for all occasions.
But then, that which we call Rock often is not. And what the heck is Pop? Everything from Sinatra to Billy Idol? How about Smooth Jazz (hate that one)? The radio stations that play it play Michael McDonald and Stevie Wonder - neither smooth nor jazz to yours truly. What about Country? Should that include Garth Brooks? How about The Eagles?
I think Bill Clinton got it right when he said it all depends upon what "is" is.
The only reason you need a term at all is to talk to people who don't play the music. In which case, it depends on how much you really want them to understand, or only give them a short answer that satisfies their polite curiosity. I rarely talk about The Music to people who don't already know what it is. Among friends, it's "tunes" or "music".
As a broad category, it is useful to narrow things down. What I find amusing is Canadian music, which in the US, they don't know where to put. In my local Borders store, Great Big Sea and Natalie McMaster end up in Celtic, while Le Vent Du Nord and the Duhks end up in Folk. Dougie MacLean can be found in both categories.
I am in a group that plays both Scots and Irish music, and we used 'Celtic' in our name to indicate we weren't just playing Irish stuff. We were surprised when we got calls to play at odd events like pagan festivals, but evidently some folk's view of what Celtic means is pretty interesting!!!!
Whatta f#ckin' bunch ya all are.
Do plastic Paddies play Celtic music, Diddley Music or Irish/Scottish/Welsh/breton/Cornish/Canadian Maritimes traditional music? Jesus , Mary and Joseph who the fk cares what you call it!!!
"Don't you then have to explain what a "whistle" is, de facto, and if "clarinet" or "recorder" gain recognition, further explain why you don't play those instruments? And then still explain what kind of music you play?"
Well, oldstrings, this is how it goes...
When I say "the whistle" (the Croatian equivalent, actually), most people just give me an "is that a real instrument?" look, but some ask further.
To those I say "Irish whistle". So most of them just give me the "ah, the Dubliners, the Pogues" look, or the "Lord of the Dance?" look. Some ask further.
And then I say I mostly play old tunes from Ireland and Scotland, but also Croatian and Macedonian and any other tunes that "like" the sound of the whistle, which was actually made of tin, so the English name is "tin whistle".
So then I usually get the "wow, how interesting" look. And through this standard filter a few "Could I hear you play" have reached me, but none of these: "I play something like that, too. We could try together."
So, I agree with fidkids - the more they ask, the more you tell them. Especially in a country where ITM is foreign. But hey, here people think of it as the Pogues, not "Celtic chillout"!
Well Kennedy if someone asks me what sort of music I play I would either say traditional music or Scottish & Irish music or more than likely folk music but just because people dont often say they are playing Celtic music that doesn't mean that is not what it is, on its broadest level.
The term 'Celtic' did not originate as a marketing term. It is the music that has emerged from the Celtic countries. I fail to see what is contraversial or upsetting about that! it may now be used as a term to categorise music in music stores but not in the ones I have been to. Up here the categories tend to be 'folk', 'Irish' and 'Scottish' and all the good stuff is in the folk section. The Scottish and Irish sections are reserved for the twee and the compilations as well as all the Scottish piping albums.
I've not seen Celtic used to classify music in Scotland or Ireland either but it is used in America. Covers everything from Enya to Irish Drinking Song CDs to Lunasa.
Anyway, I like the term folk music which encompasses all the Irish tunes I play, the smaller number of Scottish ones, the odd Cape Breton tune, and whatever else. That's only one I picked up here, since in the US folk music means something else and it wouldn't make much sense to tell people you play folk music on the bagpipes. They'd be wondering how in hell you play Bob Dylan an Joan Baez on the bagpipes. When I am in the US or talking to Americans I say Irish traditional music.
I once made the mistake of telling a sports fan that I play "Celtic' music and this dummy (who was trying to be clever and failed miserably) proceeded to correct my pronounciation ("Seltik" instead of "Keltik") and tell me that I was obviously playing "Boston basketball music".
"gw, why are you even "contributing" to this discussion?"
Why? Because the world is round...
Had you had been reading/posting here for as long as I have you too might have realized that the "Celtic" controversy is a dog-eared topic--ie, a silly excuse to pontificate on being and nothingness without knowing anything about phenomenology.
gw - "reading/posting here for long time", maybe...
... I note that you live near San Fransico, USA.
But have you ever spent any time Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Brittany? That's also quite important in the understanding of the ethnic culture of those regions.
Why 'Celtic' music?
Why 'Celtic' music?
What does it mean? Why not 'Pictish' music? What kind of music did the Celts actually play? Use of the term 'Celtic' seems to me to be feeble attempt to encompass a wide variety of the music from those islands across the English channel from the continent.
I've taken to calling it 'North Atlantic Trad' when I want to be inclusive. That would encompass fiddle music from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Northumberland, Newfoundland, & P.E.I.
Diddley music is good, too.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Go back to The Dead and The Mothers. If you start looking for celtic music you might possibly start listening to Enya and that's not recommended. Even worse, a celtic chill-out CD might miraculously appear in your player and cause your friends to slay you.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by strayaway
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I'm not sure if this post was directed at my previous post but as it is the first discussion straight after mine and references the word Celtic which i used im going to assume that it is. Im sorry if i offended you by using this word as it was truely not my intention to cause any offence in my post. You are right it probably was a feeble attempt to encompass a wide variety of music but i honestly didnt think too much about my use of the word, so for this i apologize. Thank you for bringing this to my attention and yes calling it 'North Atlantic Trad' is probably more fitting and will try use that from now on. Once again, sorry. Cheers
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by frewster
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Does anybody know who invented the term "celtic music"? Maybe Alan Stivell with his panceltism?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
It's just that the word Celtic has been used in so many contexts that jar to us players of the music.
Enya, anything Scottish or Irish 'touristy' with Book of Kells lettering and knotwork, isn't there some cheesy band calling itself 'Celtic Women' or something ? Etc.........
All this gives us a bad name when we just want to play the tunes.
Otherwise it would be fine.
Except, do you pronounce it Seltic or Keltic ? There's another can of worms.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
North Atlantic Trad? So, if we all got together and formed an organisation, then it would be: NATO
Next thing ye know, we'd be trying to undermine the UN!!
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by andy69
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Around here, fiddle music is either "Celtic" or "bluegrass." Drives me nuts. I have found that it is labeled as such by people that don't know any better. Then there are those that think "jazz" should only refer to bebop.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I was not directing this post at anyone, frewster. I'm just trying to get it clear in my mind.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I use the term celtic music often to describe the type of music I play, the reason being that I live in northern Ireland and usually when you mention Irish Traditional music, people immediately assume that you are a Wolfe Tones cover band. I once went to a session in Belfast and all it was was people singing rebel songs all night, with one or two hornpipes thrown in for good measure
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Cradinski
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I once heard the Smothers Brothers jokingly refer to old-time folk music as "Apple-Chain Music" (Appalachian Music) as part of their act at a night club. This was before their infamous television show on CBS (Columbia Brainwashing System).
Sometimes the lines between different types and styles of music are kinda blurry with one type or style blending easily and smoothly into another.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Celtic. Phooey. It's a marketing term.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Ah right, If it helps you get your head straight over here in Scotland the word Celtic is used allot to describe the variety of music we are talking about and has even found itself used in one of the the biggest music festivals in Scotland called Celtic Connections. Celtic is not only used in music but to describe the Irish, Scottish, Welsh etc people and languages. I suppose this word can mean different things to diffferent people but the understanding of it i think is universal. Hope this helps
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by frewster
Re: Why 'Celtic' music? Why Not?
Celtic music is a fine term since it just means music from peoples who speak (or who recently spoke) Celtic languages. i.e., Ireland, Scotland, Isle of Man, Wales, Cornwall, and Brittany. (Some people try to lump in a kind of Spanish traditional music from Galicia as Celtic too, but given that there has been no Celtic language spoken there since roughly 1900 years ago, I think that’s a bit of a stretch!) The Celtic language group has very distinctive characteristics, and so labelling music according to the common linguistic heritage hardly seems out of order. In the same way, in Donegal many of the old people refer to Irish and Scottish music collectively as “Gaelic music”.
And in reply to Guernsey Pete's comment on the pronunciation of the word “Celtic”: It's Celtic with a hard C (K-sounding). (The S-pronunciation is simply a mistake.) In Goidelic Celtic languages (Irish, Scottish and Manx Gaelics) the ‘C’ is always hard.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Unless you are buying a Cavan newspaper called 'The Anglo Celt' or 'The Selt' for short.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Rhychwar - clearly you know little of the history of the region of NW Europe sometimes marked on maps as the "British Isles".
The original inhabitants of several parts of NW Europe - the so-called "British Isles" and also NW France - (e.g. Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany etc) were descended from the Celts.
Although the languages of the those regions then developed separately, they still retain much in common. Breton, for instance, had a 50% correlation with Welsh.
The English language, on the other hand, has Roman, Scandanavian, Germanic and French roots , following the invasions of the Romans, the Vikings, the Danes, the Angles, the Saxons and the Normans. Although Celts also lived in the region now known as England, they were largely driven out by the invaders.
The music of the Celtic / non-Celtic regions of the British Isles also developed separately. There are thousands of English trad tunes, but you certainly wouldn't describe many of them as being "Celtic".
Celtic, incidentally, is always pronounced with a hard "c" - unless your are referring to the Glasgow football club of that name, which is for some mysterious reason is always pronounced "Seltic".
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"Setlic" is a Glasgow football (soccer) team. "Keltic" is anything else. I don't use the word to describe The Music, neither does anyone else I know on this half of the Atlantic but lots of people in America called it "Celtic" music.
I will however use the word Celtic in my academic writing because I am looking in part at 18th and 19th century constructions of Scottish Highland and Lowland identity and culture. 18th and 19th C writers differentiated the Highlands and Islands from the Lowlands and most of England as "Celtic" or "Gaelic" and fit it neatly into the whole British discourse of race and empire. I am not sure when people start using those words to describe the Highlanders and Islanders but I suspect it's around the time of the Lords of the Isles losing political power to the Stuarts. That's at least when Highland-Lowland divisions became more and more entrenched. Certainly in the 18th and 19th centuries the Highlands were characterized by many British and Scottish politicians, writers, etc. as a massive social problem and potentially dangerous (although some writers had the opposite view and wrote about how the Highlands were far healthier for mind and body than sites of urban decay like Glasgow and Edinburgh). At the same time intellectuals from the Enlightenment on were fascinated by how "different" it was from the urbanized, industrial regions of Scotland and quite a few people traveled around the Highlands as folklore collectors, writing anthropological accounts about the superstitions and habits of Highlanders and Islanders. These are described as Celtic or Gaelic and not only by Lowlanders. Some of the collectors were Highlanders and Islanders themselves and contributed to the discourse of two separate cultures/races in Scotland. In any case, it is useful to present the idea that a separate Celtic culture is a construct that emerged from 15th and 16th century politics but use it since it makes sense when writing about certain ideas specific to the people who lived in those regions.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Interesting that you use language as the defining characteristic of what is Celtic, Mix, considering the language that is most widely spoken in Ireland and Scotland is English.
The modern idea of 'Celiticism' is one of those dodgy Nineteenth Century inventions related fairly closely to eugenics, and something very closely related to British imperialism of that period. Anyone who thinks that 'Celtic' is a marketing term is right - it was originally used, in the context of the British Isles and Ireland, as a means to market an idea of Britishness, and the characteristics of the British race as inherently superior to the 'dark races'. The dash of 'Celtic' added romance, ingenuity, and spirit to the indomitable mixture of strength, determination and dogged courage that was the predominant feature of the Teutonic and Norman 'blood' that forged an Empire. All twaddle of course.
The 'Celts', in archaeological terms are the bronze age peoples of the region that now comprises Switzerland, Germany, and northern France. In linguistic terms it's those who speak Goidelic Celtic languages, such as the Irish, Scotish and Manx, and those who speak Brythonic Celtic languages, such as the Welsh, Cornish and Bretons. In reality, the English are part of this group, most Britons adopting the languages of the Saxon and Norman invaders over time. The southern English are more likely to share a strong genetic inheritance with these invading groups, but they're still largely 'Celtic' in terms of genomes.
The group of people who share most genomes with the bodies found in Celtic burial sites in La Tene (the defining archaeological site when it comes to Celtic remains) are actually Bavarians, according to recent research.
Most notions of 'Celticism' are just nonsense, really. The idea of a particular shared ancestry between Scots, Welsh, Irish, Manx, Cornish and Breton to the exclusion of the English, French, Swiss, German, Dutch etc. is not tenable. If it's there, its linguistic, rather than genetic, and considering that linguistic change is principally a social phenomenon, it makes little sense to continue using it as a notion of 'racial' identity, whatever that is.
It still works as a flawed means to define diddley, though it's a shame that it means good diddley gets mixed into the swill of 'Celtic Mood' music and suchlike.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"Why Celtic music" - So that you can identify people who don't know the difference between, or can't be bothered to distinguish, Scottish and Irish music etc.
A valuable term therefore.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Oh, I agree that the idea of a separate Celtic race is untenable but if you are looking at social practices, than the linguistic differentiation between Gaelic speakers and Scots speakers and English speakers is of fundamental importance.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"Celtic" was a very in word, I think, among cultural types in the late c19, who were fascinated by what was left of the Gaelic and Welsh-speaking cultures. I think the literature, folk-lore and and art were more gone into than the music, though - at any rate by outsiders to these cultures. It took the insider O'Neill - whether or not he knew Gaelic - to do this effectively - though I admit I don't know about Petrie or how significant his collection was.
The North Atlantic Trad idea is not at all bad: it implicitly recognises North America's importance in the world of Irish and UK trads and their derivatives and followers. But then, Norway's North Atlantic, too...
How about MAD - Modal And Diatonic... These are the characteristics which I believe set apart trad in the era of Classical dominance: musically (leaving aside for now its social connotations) it was archaic, and was neither easily assimilable by mainstream music nor able to assimilate very much of this in turn. The two streams seem to run surprisingly separately through the modern era.
Gregorian Trad?... European Catholic church music must have laid down the base for a good deal of the trad musical tradition - though I know nothing about how secular and /or Gaelic music might have developed or survived independently of church musical norms or regulation.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
The term 'Celtic music' is entirely meaningless.
It was invented by American marketing executives so they could sell music from the western extremities of Europe. As someone said, we don't know what music the Celts played, if they played any.
People who play Irish traditional should it call it 'Irish traditional music', or 'Welsh/Breton/Scottish traditional music' as the case may be. There seems to be a desire to give the music a certain 'New Age' aura which it never had to begin with. The likes of Johnny Doherty, Julia Clifford or Matt Molloy are certainly a long way from Enya or Liverdance. They would be totally mystified at the 'Celtic' label.
Anyone who refers to 'diddley music' should not be taken too seriously. This is a derogatory term employed by Irish people who despise traditional music. It is akin to calling jazz 'N***er music'.
So, lets be proud to call it Irish traditional music and forget all the dewy-eyed American 'Celtic' nonsense!
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by amhrán
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Mix, you are correct; I know very little about the region and the music. That is precisely why I posed the question, and why I frequent this board.
I want to learn more. I appreciate all the responses to my question.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"It was invented by American marketing executives so they could sell music from the western extremities of Europe. As someone said, we don't know what music the Celts played, if they played any."
No, while "Celtic" certainly is an invented term and identity, it wasn't American marketing executives who invented it. As I said above, it was used heavily in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to describe Ireland, parts of Scotland and presumably parts of Wales. Those American marketing executives have tapped into archetypes that have been around for upwards of 20 years.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Sorry, 200 years. Forgot a zero.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I use the term *trad* on this board to appease everyone. Given certain past discussions there are many reasons to object to the term. However, no one has yet communicated in a single world what it is I play in session when the session includes tunes from Ireland, Scotland, Breton, (U. S. & Canada). I will use the word trad & that all I need. It is very unlikely I will object to anyone using the term celtic.
Cheers!
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
SS wrote:
" it was used heavily in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to describe Ireland, parts of Scotland and presumably parts of Wales. "
-as evidenced by such 19th century literary/cultural movements as the 'Celtic Twighlight' ...Yeats and Lady Gregory and their like who championed a certain kind of Irish culture and view of that culture...& most of whom were Anglo Irish strangely enough...I think much of what they wanted was to displell the racist 'stage irish' stereotype which by then was firmly in place
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
deja vu all over again.....
Is there a schedule that this thread comes out every so often??
Celtic is what they do on PBS to provide a portion of unwashed masses with some government agency somewhere's established minimum daily requirement of music in 6/8 by bodhran players with ponty tails in dago tees, and comely young lasses in evening gowns. I think we have all agreed at this juncure how significant this is in maintaining awareness in the proletariat of the cultural importance of our timeless art form.
The other group that seems to use the phrase 'Celtic' are the churchies I work with who have St. Pat's Liturgies penciled in on their calendars to remind them to go out and find a token piper, box player and violinist willing to make believe he/she is a fiddler to play Irish esque stuff written by the church music mill in Chicago.
Sorry....of topic?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I think Robert Ryan has said all that needs to be said. An excellent post.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Diddley isn't fundamentally derogatory. It's a more useful distinction than 'Celtic' music. I use it to differentiate between Irish music (diddley-dee), and English music (rumpty-tumpty).
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
This does come up every so often - anyone have the references to earlier threads ?
I refer everyone to the excellent series on the history of Scotland currently being broadcast on one of the terrestial channels here in the UK. Interestingly, Scotland is so called because it is where the Duns Scotae ( ?sp? ) settled, they being a tribe from Ireland, and the Highland gaelic is referred to in John Prebble's excellent book on Culloden and the Highland Clearances as Irish - the lairds might have been literate and multilingual but their clan members only spoke Irish. Which was banned for generations after Culloden as an act of imperialism.
In his introduction for Alain Stivell's first concert performance at the Royal Festival Hall many years ago, Karl Dallas said that at one time one could travel over much of Europe speaking some form of Gaelic. Well, maybe, and maybe not. The Celtic Twilight has a lot to answer for.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Passionate disagreements over word usage are neither unique to the Irish nor to those giddily sludging Irish DNA around elsewhere.
My lawyer/barrister/driver says many of his fellow Navajo find the very word "bin-kie-jinh-jih-dez-jay" (which means "offensive") to be an offensive word in and of itself. So they refrain from calling anything "bin-kie-jinh-jih-dez-jay." Therefore, nothing is offensive except the word that describes offensiveness.
Are words as painstakingly parsed by most members of, say, the Havasupai, Yavapai, or Hualapai tribes? No. No, they are not.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Shouldn't you say "Diné", NPDECO?
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I don't use the "c" word much but it is at least more descriptive than words for other music genres, like "heavy metal". Now that really is meaningless.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by Mike Floorstand
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Well I have no problem with the term 'Celtic' to describe the music. It is a term used a lot in Scotland and I am sure further afield to describe the music of the 'Celtic peoples' - and whilst the links between the modern Celtic nations of Scotland (the whole of Scotland), Wales, Ireland, Cornwall, Brittany and Mann and the original central European Celtic peoples may be largely linguistic and of course archaeological rather than actual clearly defined genetics that is no reason for the term not to be used. There have been huge cultural interchanges as well as movements of people between all these nations over the past couple of thousand years and clear and strong links between the music.
To call it Pictish music would not suffice because the Irish were not Picts and, in fact the term only really ever applied to the unconquered peoples to the north of the Antonine Wall. Those south of the wall were Britons - although they were arguably, historically the same people.
The Bretons were were the people living in North-West France whose ancestors came across from Britain at an earlier point and took the name with them - many of them then went back with the Norman Invasion of England in 1066 (the Normans were originally Scandanavian settlers in what is now called Normandy - but that is another story).
You may not get many folk in sessions here describing the music they are playing as Celtic music as such as they would probably just say they were playing tunes or Scottish/Irish music - but that does not mean that the term is immediately recognisable and understood for what it means.
People need to get off their high horses and just relax a little about the whole thing.
Alistair
P.S. I would hate to think that the subject I spent years studying at University got its name because of over-eager American marketing executives or Nineteenth Century romanticists.
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I wonder to what extent diatonic and modal folk/trad, with roots in pre-Classical music, is a continuum from IR /UK eastward across Europe, bounded by Moorish / Arab / Byzantine / Turkish traditions in the South and East. I've heard rather little Continental folk to go on, but it includes a lot of Scandi tunes just like English ones and French ones that are just like IR / UK ones in the modes used. I know very little about Mediaeval music, but wonder whether its building-blocks - the ones trad rested on, anyway - were not substantially the same across Western Europe.
I see the trad of the UK nations and Ireland as being very much one entity, with musical forms and structures in common and very many shared tunes. I think a pervasive and inclusive Classical tradition ran it very thin in England but left it alone in Ireland, where it was not so pervasive and by no means inclusive - sizeable communities were marginalised, and the trad remained their music. (Don't get me wrong about the Classical music tradition in Britain: I admire and like it. I want to enjoy and appreciate both!)
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
clear and strong links between the music?! I call bullsh*t. There may be clear and strong links between scottish and irish, but I'm not convinced by any link with welsh that excludes english or any link with breton which excludes the rest of France or scandinavia.
There have also been studies by ethnomusicologists who have come to these conclusions - and are the main foundation of my opinion.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Tirno
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I am beginning to enjoy taking a 'dark side' perspective to these threads.
Alistair
I think the issue in your PS has to do with the horse and cart ordering.
The topic was totally appropriate and proper for your studies. The American Marketing execs just have a knack of stealing ideas, beating the to unrecognizable pulps, mercilessly overmarketing them and then leaving them for the next 'hot' topic.
Actually, 'Celtic' is well off the radar of most Americans after its fleeting fame. Replaced by Indian slum kid movies. I just don't know how they will mass market Indian food. (It is wonderful if you appreciate it, but not for the collective pallete of the Western masses)
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I would disagree that the modal musics of France are similar to those of ireland. French music is much more based on the bagpipes and tends to only span an octave and a 5th, to have the same root note whether in majorish or minorish - unlike irish with a clear Emin/Dmaj kind of duality, to have very few mixolydian tunes and to include modes not found in irish music.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Tirno
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
What's in a name? A dog-turd by any other name would smell just as sh*te.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"Celtic" on a CD means either it's New Age noodling from the USA, or
Scottish tunes with a synthesizer and cello in the background.
However I think Gerry 'fiddle' O'Connor and Tommy Peoples can truly be called Celtic in the undegraded sense of the word - the way they cross national boundaries with their respective styles.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Hup
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
fidkid--
Yes—sorry.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Thanks for the info on French music, tirno. I didn't know that.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
The term "Celtic" has a long and honorable history in comparative linguistics, and properly describes a group of related Indo-European languages (including Irish, Scots Gaelic, Welsh, Breton, etc.). It wasn't just a romantic.imperialist invention, though it does date back to the 19th century. What we call "Celtic" music is the music of peoples who live in places with a recent Celtic linguistic background. But there isn't much basis for saying that the music itself was the kind of music the original Celts had -- we don't really know anything about real Celtic music, and in fact we don't know very much about their language either.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Feadaire
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
‘…while "Celtic" certainly is an invented term and identity…’
First of all, all terms are invented! ‘Celt’ is, I believe, a term invented by the ancient Greeks, and used extensively by the Romans. Terms are generally invented because they do some useful work in classification. The reason terms come into common usage is that (in general) they pick out natural groups, the members of which share common features. There is a distinction between ‘self-identification’ and the use of terms in the context of scholarship. Few 18th century Irish or Scottish Gaels would have identified their culture as Celtic, but few would have known that their common language belonged to the Celtic branch of Indo-European. Their languages were, nevertheless, Celtic.
“Interesting that you use language as the defining characteristic of what is Celtic, Mix, considering the language that is most widely spoken in Ireland and Scotland is English.” –Robert Ryan’
It’s interesting that ‘Robert Ryan’ dismisses the “common linguistic heritage” of various Celtic nations in virtue of their being dominated by the British Empire and its language. Traditional Irish music is the traditional music of the Gaelic speaking Irish. Traditional Scottish music is the traditional music of the Gaelic speaking Scottish people (even the music of the Borders is largely derived from Gaelic musical culture.) If the term ‘Celtic’ is not palatable to some hereabouts, perhaps we can at least use the term ‘Gaelic Music’ for Irish, Scottish, and Manx music.
The idea that the shared language and culture of the originators of the music is now irrelevant to the music’s classification, due to the violent suppression of both Irish and Scots Gaelic by the Empire, is really quite offensive!
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Who feckin' cares! If it was referred to as "Sh*te" music then there might be a reason to p*ss and moan.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by GDub
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
gw, why are you even "contributing" to this discussion?
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Yeah, gw it doesn't matter. It's only because of the record companies
that the word is annoying, as Guernsey Pete and strayaway implied.
I don't want to be connected with that stuff
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Hup
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Hup you missed a few discussions
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"Record companies"? They seem to label almost everything in this category as Folk, World, or Ethnic. "Trad" to many people means Dixieland jazz.
If someone asks me what I play, I usually reply "Celtic".
If they are still interested, I will explain further. Because I am almost equally interested in Irish, English, and Scottish music, including the variations found in Newfoundland and Nova Scotia, but haven't pursued Welsh, Breton, or Galician, I don't have a better short description, and I think it pointless to launch into a wordy qualification when the polite enquirer has already switched off.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"Celtic. Phooey. It's a marketing term."
"Ah right, If it helps you get your head straight over here in Scotland the word Celtic is used allot to describe the variety of music we are talking about and has even found itself used in one of the the biggest music festivals in Scotland called Celtic Connections."
So the two sides do agree...
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Athough English may be the most widely spoken language in Ireland, Scotland and Wales today, that was not formerly the case. You only need to look at the place names on maps of those areas to understand that.
The language of those regions (and some parts of England and France) all derive from Celtic. Take for example, the English word "black"
Irish : dubh
Scots Gaelic: dubh
Welsh : du
Breton :du
Cornish : du
I don't use the term "Celtic music" myself, but if someone else used it I would take it to mean music from those regions whose previously widely spoken language derived from Celtic. And those regions don't include England.
Which is why the expression "North Atlantic trad" is ridiculous.
The connection between language and culture (which would include music) is admittedly somewhat tenous, and difficult to prove. However, my heart tells me that there must be some connection.
The big difference between "Celtic" music (diddley, if you like) and English music (umpty dumpty, if you like) would seem to suggest though that there is some connection between language and music.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"Celtic" is a handy grab-all term and as has been repeatedly stated above, many people in Scotland are happy enough to use it to encompass the varieties of music they play, including music of Shetland which is arguably more Nordic than Celtic.
There may be more accurate terms but they are not going to serve the purpose of being a) concise and b) widely understood.
The fact that there is some wafty ambient stuff out there called Celtic by "record companies" (I think some are overestimating their influence - anyway, it's dwindling rapidly) is neither here nor there
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Bren
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Mix- i like your theory, but i don't think it travels well. i mean most of what we call "mountain music" here is based in scottish and irish music. And thuogh the dialect can be very thick, it's still English. I'm sure it would interest you to know (if you son't already) there was a sizeable settlement os Gaelic-speaking Highlanders in the Cape Fear region of Southeastern North Carolina. They wore kilts and all and thrived for a few generations:
http://www.northcarolinahistory.org/
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
www.northcarolinahistory.org/encyclopedia/110/entry
to be more specific. i still don't get this "link" thing...
except youtube. one of my fav mountain tunes, by some young "fogies":
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=sfTFBtvIcSY
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Pipes - the linguistic part of what I said was factual - not theory!
As we all know, the immigants from Europe (including those from Scotland and Ireland) took their music with them, although much of this developed into new forms, such as the "mountain music" that you mention.
Since many of the immigrants were English speaking at the time of their immigration, it's hardly surprising that their descendants are still speaking a form of it today.
Whilst I'm aware that there are many forms of American "traditional" music e.g. "mountain", Cajun etc. I wouldn't attempt to classify it, as my knowledge on the subject is very much incomplete.
For the same reason , I think that Rhychwar was ill-advised to come up with the term "North Atlantic trad", as it shows (amongst other things) that he knows little or nothing about English traditional music (the latter being very different from Irish or Scottish trad).
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Pipes - a question for you (or indeed anyone).
I've often heard the term "old-timey" used in connection with American traditional music. Does this mean the same as "mountain music" - or is that a different form?
(If responding, some examples of tune names and their "classicifation" might be useful).
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
i agree it's an poor designation. it totally ignores the Mid- atlantic tradition:
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=NGcnvwGLyqA
i see your point
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Every word is a blend of two denotations:
a) similarities between what the word applies to
b) differences from what the word does not apply to.
But a word also has connotations, and these can be many.
All of these elements can be discussed and the discussion never ends, because the denotation is never perfect (not all ITM is the same, for instance), and the connotations always fuel the discussion with some sort of emotional engagement.
When it comes to music, applying names to it often seem to steal its soul. Take "classical music" as an example. Genres are there for music historians and critics to have something they can sell as science. I don't want to contribute to that.
I simply play - what? The whistle.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by deFacto
Old timey vs mountain
I've always considered the terms synonymous, although mountain music doesn't seem to get used as much nowadays. Except by some of the people who play it! If you wanted to skin it a bit thinner, I suppose you could argue that old-timey refers to rural music, even down in the hollers and the flatlands, but since it's in the more remote mountainous areas that this music has survived, it has become by de facto mountain music.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
haha just noticed my crossposter's username and my-third-to-last word
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Granted, I don't live in Scotland, but I lived there for a while and have been going back for 25 years, and I've never heard anyone describe their music as "Celtic". My friends there know perfectly well what's Scottish, what's Irish, and what's Shetland (actually more "nordic", as Bren said). They might play at "Celtic" music festivals, but that's because that's where the work is, not because they identify themselves as "Celtic" artists. If they use any kind of descriptor at all, they'll usually just say they play traditional music. And here's a Shetland tune. And this is an old Scottish song. And play us an Irish tune, maybe we'll know it (and usually they do).
It's a marketing term, pure and simple. Some of us are old enough to remember record stores---the good ones always had large sections devoted to all the major genres---jazz, country, gospel, Celtic, etc. And the ones with the real music geeks would break down those sections further, so the Celtic section would have subsections for Irish, Scottish, Welsh, etc. It was great when you wanted to go buy a record, you knew exactly where to look. And then the music promoters started presenting "Celtic" festivals. Again, a great thing---at one festival, you could see an Irish band, some Scottish pipers, and lots of mixtures who played a bit of everything. Which is fine, it was an avenue for the music, a way of bringing it to larger audiences and helping it to grow. (and then it grew in weird directions, but that's another topic)
The unfortunate result of all this marketing, though, is that the general public started to get the impression that it's all "Celtic"---they lost the ability to make the distinctions between one genre and another. So now you get people who start learning to play and want to know how they can learn "Celtic" "songs"---usually by themselves, at home, from a book.
I tell people I play Irish fiddle. They usually have some vague idea of what that means. They know it's not bluegrass. I don't mention that I also play some Scottish tunes, because that would get me the deer-in-the-headlights look. But that's okay. I don't have to educate everyone I meet. But I'll be dam*ed if I'm going to tell people I play "Celtic" music.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Nicholas - as you say, the Irish Scottish and English traditions do have some tunes in common, owing mainly to travel of people between those countries. But is that sufficient reason to lump them together?
Consider what can happen if you go to an Irish session (in England, at any rate) and play an English tune. The chances are that no-one will join in with you. You might even get glared at!
Even if no-one there has ever heard the tune before, the structure and style of the tune would in most cases be enough for them to tell them that the tune was English in origin!
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
the "coincidence" does coincide well with what i was saying, fidkid
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by deFacto
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Mix and fidkid- i would say you're about right there. old-time music can be found indigenously all over the US in different styles. Much of it is derived from "mountain" music in some way
- "mountain music" is what the mountain people here in south central Appalachia call their traditional music
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
But Mix - if you tweaked and slightly modified the same English tune up into an Irish-style 4/4 hornpipe or polka or reel or jig, it might well pass for an Irish one in an Irish session, or be adequate to go in a ceilidh set. The bar structure, rhythm and mode / scale / key of the tune would very likely be parallelled in Irish music already. Playing speeds, styles, purposes of music, certain instruments - yes, different from Ireland, or less typical or usual there; 3/2s nearly absent from Ireland - and so on; but I still think the basic components of the music in UK and IR have a great deal in common, even if one can distinguish "typical" English and Irish music sharply and immediately when they're played.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
So if there still were those record stores with a good stock of "the music often categorised as Celtic" how should the CDs be on the shelved ?
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by David50
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Being from North Dakota (very flat), I've never heard Old-Time referred to as "mountain" music. One can go to "Old-Time" contests, but the winners are playing in what's called Texas Contest Style (which isn't every old at all), and then there are those that call it all Bluegrass, although it isn't.
I guess that's what happens when mere humans try to put a handle on something; sometimes it gets confusing.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Nicholas - I can see your point, and understand what you mean about "tweaking" etc.
But ever been to one of those what I would call "hard-core" Irish sessions in England? Some of those folks will put their instruments down in disgust even if you start what they would consider to be a "nursery" Irish tune - such as Merry Blacksmith or Tobin's Favourite.
I don't think that your idea would work in such places!
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
that's what i mean. it's a region-specific term.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
>> This does come up every so often - anyone have the references to earlier threads ?
Here's a few...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16996
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13720
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1127/comments#comment17465
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Reverend
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
From now on, I use 'trad'. Just 'trad' in my iTunes list.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Maybe, Mix! But that strikes me as a boredom or intolerance factor at work, determining which tunes are "in" and which are "out". Sessions define their clan repertoire (!), newbie tunes arouse impatience, all the rest of it - quite understandable, and to be sussed out and handled carefully by sensible newbies and visitors - even if (hopefully) it isn't written in stone.
Some English music sessions might have the same aversion to Irish tunes or to elementary English tunes. (Though I've had the impression in the past that a number of Engtrad musos have had a significantly higher threshhold of boredom when it comes to dag tunes than many Irtrad ones!...)
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I agree with that last impression Nicholas, which is a real shame. Too many people seem to think that English trad. is limited to dull Morris tunes in D and G, and they seem largely unaware of the wealth of beautiful, exciting tunes available in all shapes, sizes, rhythms and modes. Long live Playford, and long live 3/2s...
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Yes, Long Live 3/2s
Having said that . . .
Pete, & the rest of you still hanging on, here are some related discussions, etc.
celtic or not celtic
December 16th 2001 by lars
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/displ
ay/237
I searched but could not find the other discussion which took place at the same time as this
one. The other had a great commentary by Alf Tupper.
Respected Guitarists in Celtic Music*
September 20th 2007 by hraefnswudu
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/displ
ay/15213
* Duck Baker's essay "The Term Celtic"
seems to have vanished.
alternative ITM site;
http://www.celticcafe.com/archive/Books/melhuish/index.htm
"Celtic Tides: Traditional Music in a New Age," written by Martin Melhuish
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
This should work better
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/237
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15213
at least you could link to http://www.celticcafe.com
;)
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Certainly, nicholas and Robert Ryan - all the traditions have good tunes - and quite a few bad ones as well!
My favourite local session is a "mixed" one: Irish, Scottish, English - also tunes from other counties. Plenty of songs as well, in the breaks between session playing. And even the occasional humerous poem or monologue. On Monday this week (the day after Burn's night) someone gave us a rendering of a Burn's poem.
This session attracts quite a high number of foreign visitors - musicians, singers and people who just come to listen.
This combination of regulars and vistors from all over the world promotes great diversity - every week is enjoyable, and no two weeks are ever the same.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Sorry, typo. Counties, I meant countries of course!
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Celtic commentary
found the rebuttal to *celtic*
At the time Alf was Danny & random was muse;
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15244/comments#comment314666
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"even the occasional humerous poem ..."
Mix O'Lydian, in some sessions that would get you the elbow.
Nordic music? I used to explain my mountain recreation as "Nordic skiing" which usually drew blank looks. "Cross-country skiing" gave most people an inkling of what I was talking about, but is not accurate, at least in these parts.
"Some of us are old enough to remember record stores"
At one time, kennedy, much of indigenous American music was sold under the categories of Race, Country, or Square Dance. Jazz meant Paul Whiteman, not Louis Armstrong, because Armstrong could be found under Race.
But if you get the idea where to look, what does it matter (at least for organizational purposes)? Is the music store manager going to create a new category and take the Irish Traditional music (if any) out of the World section?
"I simply play - what? The whistle."
Don't you then have to explain what a "whistle" is, de facto, and if "clarinet" or "recorder" gain recognition, further explain why you don't play those instruments? And then still explain what kind of music you play?"
'North Atlantic Trad"
Would that include this?
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Rx3lQyK1FA4
Okay, I'm going to take a nap now.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Celtic? I guess it will serve as well as anything else. No term I can think of is inclusive enough to serve for all occasions.
But then, that which we call Rock often is not. And what the heck is Pop? Everything from Sinatra to Billy Idol? How about Smooth Jazz (hate that one)? The radio stations that play it play Michael McDonald and Stevie Wonder - neither smooth nor jazz to yours truly. What about Country? Should that include Garth Brooks? How about The Eagles?
I think Bill Clinton got it right when he said it all depends upon what "is" is.
# Posted on January 27th 2009 by Ailin
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
The only reason you need a term at all is to talk to people who don't play the music. In which case, it depends on how much you really want them to understand, or only give them a short answer that satisfies their polite curiosity. I rarely talk about The Music to people who don't already know what it is. Among friends, it's "tunes" or "music".
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
As a broad category, it is useful to narrow things down. What I find amusing is Canadian music, which in the US, they don't know where to put. In my local Borders store, Great Big Sea and Natalie McMaster end up in Celtic, while Le Vent Du Nord and the Duhks end up in Folk. Dougie MacLean can be found in both categories.
I am in a group that plays both Scots and Irish music, and we used 'Celtic' in our name to indicate we weren't just playing Irish stuff. We were surprised when we got calls to play at odd events like pagan festivals, but evidently some folk's view of what Celtic means is pretty interesting!!!!
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Whatta f#ckin' bunch ya all are.
Do plastic Paddies play Celtic music, Diddley Music or Irish/Scottish/Welsh/breton/Cornish/Canadian Maritimes traditional music? Jesus , Mary and Joseph who the fk cares what you call it!!!
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by shanty
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Well, now - you've been told!
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by meself
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"Don't you then have to explain what a "whistle" is, de facto, and if "clarinet" or "recorder" gain recognition, further explain why you don't play those instruments? And then still explain what kind of music you play?"
Well, oldstrings, this is how it goes...
When I say "the whistle" (the Croatian equivalent, actually), most people just give me an "is that a real instrument?" look, but some ask further.
To those I say "Irish whistle". So most of them just give me the "ah, the Dubliners, the Pogues" look, or the "Lord of the Dance?" look. Some ask further.
And then I say I mostly play old tunes from Ireland and Scotland, but also Croatian and Macedonian and any other tunes that "like" the sound of the whistle, which was actually made of tin, so the English name is "tin whistle".
So then I usually get the "wow, how interesting" look. And through this standard filter a few "Could I hear you play" have reached me, but none of these: "I play something like that, too. We could try together."
So, I agree with fidkids - the more they ask, the more you tell them. Especially in a country where ITM is foreign. But hey, here people think of it as the Pogues, not "Celtic chillout"!
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by deFacto
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I'll concede you one thing, Rhychwar ...
The Tam Lin (Glasgow reel) is sometimes called "A Night on the Titanic"
So that one would definitely be "North Atlantic Trad"
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Well Kennedy if someone asks me what sort of music I play I would either say traditional music or Scottish & Irish music or more than likely folk music but just because people dont often say they are playing Celtic music that doesn't mean that is not what it is, on its broadest level.
The term 'Celtic' did not originate as a marketing term. It is the music that has emerged from the Celtic countries. I fail to see what is contraversial or upsetting about that! it may now be used as a term to categorise music in music stores but not in the ones I have been to. Up here the categories tend to be 'folk', 'Irish' and 'Scottish' and all the good stuff is in the folk section. The Scottish and Irish sections are reserved for the twee and the compilations as well as all the Scottish piping albums.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
Alistair,
I've not seen Celtic used to classify music in Scotland or Ireland either but it is used in America. Covers everything from Enya to Irish Drinking Song CDs to Lunasa.
Anyway, I like the term folk music which encompasses all the Irish tunes I play, the smaller number of Scottish ones, the odd Cape Breton tune, and whatever else. That's only one I picked up here, since in the US folk music means something else and it wouldn't make much sense to tell people you play folk music on the bagpipes. They'd be wondering how in hell you play Bob Dylan an Joan Baez on the bagpipes. When I am in the US or talking to Americans I say Irish traditional music.
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
I once made the mistake of telling a sports fan that I play "Celtic' music and this dummy (who was trying to be clever and failed miserably) proceeded to correct my pronounciation ("Seltik" instead of "Keltik") and tell me that I was obviously playing "Boston basketball music".
# Posted on January 28th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
"gw, why are you even "contributing" to this discussion?"
Why? Because the world is round...
Had you had been reading/posting here for as long as I have you too might have realized that the "Celtic" controversy is a dog-eared topic--ie, a silly excuse to pontificate on being and nothingness without knowing anything about phenomenology.
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by GDub
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
gw - "reading/posting here for long time", maybe...
... I note that you live near San Fransico, USA.
But have you ever spent any time Ireland, Scotland, Wales or Brittany? That's also quite important in the understanding of the ethnic culture of those regions.
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
The term can't bother some musicians in Scotland that much:
http://www.footstompin.com/forum?forumid=3
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by David50
Re: Why 'Celtic' music?
A discussion like this is bound to attract those who are more bothered by it so I wouldn't take it as representative
# Posted on January 29th 2009 by Bren