Hey all, long time no see. i just spent a week around some of the best musicians, at Milwuakee Irish Fest. I noticed that all of them play very soft. i have, for as long as i have been playing, always play at my maximum volume unless i intend to play with the dynamics. All these good people play soft unless they are playing with the dynamics. I am wondering whether this is something that i should be doing of not. i would apprciate any imput. thanks!
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Hey berserker, I thought that playing with all my might was the object of the game as well for quite some time. But Tanya's advice is good--and it's hard to relax and breathe while also playing with all your might. And being relaxed and breathing are really, really important to sounding good!
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
My parents and I went to a session one night. Liz Carroll was playing there. i was wowed by how quiet she played, if i had been on the other side of the room i probably wouldn't of heard her. So what i am driving at is how soft/relaxed should one be. If i really try i can be soft and sound as good as i can but obviously I don't always want to always play that soft.
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Hey AJ,
Sounds like you had a great time at Milwaukee!
As far as this soft/loud thing goes, most string instruments are fairly easy to play loudly. In fact, some fiddles don't fully respond until you really lean on them (and they're exhausting to play . Could be why so many sessions sound like a steam calliope coming in the door. I notice I tend to play louder after a stint of noisy sessions, and it takes conscious effort (or a collective glare from the family) to ratchet it down back in my own living room.
To me, one of the marks of a good player is the ability to control tone and emphasis at a whisper, to separate "dynamics" from volume. In other words, you want to be able to give a tune lift and pulse and fullness by leaning on certain notes even if you're playing quietly. If this doesn't come easily right away, don't give up...like everything else, it just takes conscious practice. Think about letting the (minimal) weight of the bow drive the volume, rather than pressing on the bow with your hand or arm. Your hand should stay relaxed, but weightless on the stick. Focus on that contact point between hair and string and aim for a soft but clear tone.
'Course it's also great fun to blast away and bounce tunes off the rafters. I think you'll find that they sound even better at full volume after you've mastered the quiet stuff too.
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Loud is best - and so say all bodhran,banjo,pa and rhythm guitar players (or so we are lead to believe by complaints posted).
Although I am imfamous for playing anglo con and pa (the loudest instruments known to man), when in my favorite sessions, I am there to learn from others, so its quietest stop and no basses. From recent noise postings, I wonder how many people actually practise at this level? Playing softly is something totally different and about projection and attack more than anything else.
I have got my corner trained so if anyone trys to blast out too loud, at the shhh command, we all pipe down to minimum volume to see if the foghorn notices. If they dont, we wait until they have got two bars in front of us then wind it back up. That really confuses them.
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Heh, yeah Em, I didn't play *at all* for the first two hours we all sat down in my living room, eh? And then we were off to that quiet little gig in the FOOTBALL STADIUM.... My arm still hurts from that one.
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Are you asking me? and do you mean recordings when i am not practicing? If that is the case, my favorites are liz carroll, tommy peoples and martin hayes, but i will also listen to anything from lunasa to jethro tull to bill monroe. it all depends n what mod i am in.
i guess i will just hve to work on relaxing to play softer, but how do you relax when you are bouncing a tune off the rafters?
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
AJ, try letting the fiddle set the volume. In other words, let it project instead of pushing harder to get the sound. It also might help to find a large echoey room to play in, the sort of place where the slightest touch of you bow produces waves of sound richoceting off the ceiling and walls. Big marble-floored hotel lobby, or a tiled indoor swimming pool. You'll send whole orchestras of sound up to the ceiling without any effort. Just try to play quietly--it'll require the lightest touch you can muster. Then carry that with you.
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Banjos, plural, can kill a nice sensitive bit of playing from the fiddles and flutes. One banjo per session is perfect, 2 tolerable, but above that....why would anyone else bother trying?
I think it's a generalisation, based on one persons experience, that good fiddle players play quietly. What about Austin Dawe, Kane O'Rourke, Breandan Mulkere or Brian Montague? Although it is true Sean Casey and Brian Rooney play quite quietly...and I've heard that Liz Carroll does the same.
WRT flutes, in my experience it's much harder to control the dynamics of the wooden species (regardless of the system, ie Boehm or simple) vis a vis the silver chap. I have noticed though that good players tend to come through strongly, nevertheless, eg Marcus Hernon, Cathal McConnell and Niall Keegan...also Paul Gallagher - but maybe the other players were displaying due deference thus playing a few decibels down...
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
In the teaching of IT fiddle, as far as technique goes, there are all the usual things - good straight bowing, intonation, dynamics, tone production etc *but*, unlike classical training, not much is made of tone *projection*, which can involve bowing heavier, faster and nearer the bridge (which will sound rougher to the player, but fine to a listener 5 feet away). Players in a session usually have no need for great volume, so they go for the softer close-to-the fingerboard tone. Plus the fact that good fiddle players in a session will want to hear the other intruments well (including their own) - another reason for the softer tone.....a confident brutal attack might be fine for a Paganini caprice - but not necessarily for a tuneful and lyrical honrpipe!
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
AJ & I have a friend who had the good fortune to be able to back Liz Carroll with his guitar, just the two of them. Much to his chagrin -- as he described it -- he buried her, had to quickly adopt a gentler playing style so as to allow her to shine through. She plays very quietly.
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
A distinction should be made between volume and intensity. Having less of the former does not necessarily translate into less of the latter. For the great players, it is usually the opposite. They sometimes seem like they are playing loudly, but in fact what you are experiencing is precision-guided intensity. I don't play fiddle, but on the flute it is quite difficult to maintain a very quiet but intense tone; however, being able to play a tune (on flute) on low volume but high intesity gives you dynamic room to "punch" the rhythm/accents. Also, saves on air supply, but boy does your embochure (i can never spell that freaking word!) burn.
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
It's funny. A friend from a town where the trad quality can tend to be not so good is here visiting for a week. Now, this isn't the center of the trad universe, but the quality of music can be quite good. One of his first remarks at a session was, "everyone plays so quietly!" His later comment was, "But, they're really good!" I had that reaction when I first moved here from where he came from. Now that I've played the music more and traveled some I've realized that it's not soft here; it's pretty normal volume.
Of course people often equate loud and fast with good, but as we know, that's not the case. I find that especially with fiddle players the louder and faster someone is playing the less likely I am to actually take something of their playing away with me. It's gimmicky. I don't know that good fiddle players try to play softly but I imagine that they're in control of their instruments. You don't want to push the instrument to its max volume all the time because there's nowhere to go for when the emotion strikes to really hit it.
I think it can take a little time to readjust your ears to appreciate the intricacies and expression that mark a really good player. Not to knock any particular players, but you have to clear your senses of high octane pseudo-trad sh!t that can cloud your tastes. Loud and fast does not equal good. It can be exciting but it isn't meaningful; it won't stick with you and get you through hard times.
Now, when you're playing with someone the goal is to play *with* them. Part of being a good trad musician is having the grace to play nicely with others. I find that when people are really blasting away volume wise (not intensity wise) that they're not actually listening to anybody but themselves. They're in the middle of a conversation and they're yelling.
I play flute and have never had to try to play quietly, as I had pretty quiet flutes. But I recently came into Hamilton and now I'm learning about volume. It's takes some skill to keep a good embouchure while trying not to blow the people around you away with this tank.
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Another reason is that the great fiddlers will usually have pretty good fiddles (and bows!), and are more likely to use high quality composition core covered strings which are very responsive and have a wide dynamic range.
Trevor
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
my action is very low and if i play real loud/hard the tone suffers somewhat if it is something difficult to play..sometimes, when i am playing thru my amp and baggs unit it is much better sounding to turn up a bit and not play so hard..then, there are times when i am possessed like paganini where i mimic and improvise like his style as played with all the pyrotechnics and it sounds great to play loud and maniacally..you still have to be at a level where you are accurate and have good bow control..as for all the lovely minor key and modal tunes i have found in your styles the dynamics call for the quieter playing...more meditative and it connects so well with one's inner spirit
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Yeah, I want to know about the Top Ten Sandwich Shops in Clonmel, Trevor, could you help us out with that?
While you're at it, what I'd really like is a Top Ten List of Fleadh Moments, where you heard a player that moved your soul, or witnessed a session that knocked your socks off, or received a piece of advice that really turned your playing around... that would be lovely, contributions from all attendees would be wonderful! (comments on attractive men totally 100% optional :P )
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Sheesh, Em, I was in Clonmel for only 8 days so what would I be wanting to go to *10* sandwich shops for
Anyway, this is a little off-topic, so I'm preparing some sort of account of Clonmel and hope to get it posted today or tomorrow as a separate thread. There are some memorable moments, but I don't know whether they'll run to 10.
Trevor
why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Hey all, long time no see. i just spent a week around some of the best musicians, at Milwuakee Irish Fest. I noticed that all of them play very soft. i have, for as long as i have been playing, always play at my maximum volume unless i intend to play with the dynamics. All these good people play soft unless they are playing with the dynamics. I am wondering whether this is something that i should be doing of not. i would apprciate any imput. thanks!
AJ
# Posted on August 22nd 2003 by berserker
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Hey berserker, I thought that playing with all my might was the object of the game as well for quite some time. But Tanya's advice is good--and it's hard to relax and breathe while also playing with all your might. And being relaxed and breathing are really, really important to sounding good!
# Posted on August 22nd 2003 by Andee
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
My parents and I went to a session one night. Liz Carroll was playing there. i was wowed by how quiet she played, if i had been on the other side of the room i probably wouldn't of heard her. So what i am driving at is how soft/relaxed should one be. If i really try i can be soft and sound as good as i can but obviously I don't always want to always play that soft.
# Posted on August 22nd 2003 by berserker
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Hey AJ,
. Could be why so many sessions sound like a steam calliope coming in the door. I notice I tend to play louder after a stint of noisy sessions, and it takes conscious effort (or a collective glare from the family) to ratchet it down back in my own living room.
Sounds like you had a great time at Milwaukee!
As far as this soft/loud thing goes, most string instruments are fairly easy to play loudly. In fact, some fiddles don't fully respond until you really lean on them (and they're exhausting to play
To me, one of the marks of a good player is the ability to control tone and emphasis at a whisper, to separate "dynamics" from volume. In other words, you want to be able to give a tune lift and pulse and fullness by leaning on certain notes even if you're playing quietly. If this doesn't come easily right away, don't give up...like everything else, it just takes conscious practice. Think about letting the (minimal) weight of the bow drive the volume, rather than pressing on the bow with your hand or arm. Your hand should stay relaxed, but weightless on the stick. Focus on that contact point between hair and string and aim for a soft but clear tone.
'Course it's also great fun to blast away and bounce tunes off the rafters. I think you'll find that they sound even better at full volume after you've mastered the quiet stuff too.
# Posted on August 22nd 2003 by Will CPT
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Will is one of the quietest players I know.
# Posted on August 22nd 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Loud is best - and so say all bodhran,banjo,pa and rhythm guitar players (or so we are lead to believe by complaints posted).
Although I am imfamous for playing anglo con and pa (the loudest instruments known to man), when in my favorite sessions, I am there to learn from others, so its quietest stop and no basses. From recent noise postings, I wonder how many people actually practise at this level? Playing softly is something totally different and about projection and attack more than anything else.
I have got my corner trained so if anyone trys to blast out too loud, at the shhh command, we all pipe down to minimum volume to see if the foghorn notices. If they dont, we wait until they have got two bars in front of us then wind it back up. That really confuses them.
# Posted on August 23rd 2003 by geoffwright
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Who do you listen to?
# Posted on August 23rd 2003 by sorefingers
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Heh, yeah Em, I didn't play *at all* for the first two hours we all sat down in my living room, eh? And then we were off to that quiet little gig in the FOOTBALL STADIUM.... My arm still hurts from that one.
# Posted on August 23rd 2003 by Will CPT
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Are you asking me? and do you mean recordings when i am not practicing? If that is the case, my favorites are liz carroll, tommy peoples and martin hayes, but i will also listen to anything from lunasa to jethro tull to bill monroe. it all depends n what mod i am in.
i guess i will just hve to work on relaxing to play softer, but how do you relax when you are bouncing a tune off the rafters?
AJ
# Posted on August 23rd 2003 by berserker
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
AJ, try letting the fiddle set the volume. In other words, let it project instead of pushing harder to get the sound. It also might help to find a large echoey room to play in, the sort of place where the slightest touch of you bow produces waves of sound richoceting off the ceiling and walls. Big marble-floored hotel lobby, or a tiled indoor swimming pool. You'll send whole orchestras of sound up to the ceiling without any effort. Just try to play quietly--it'll require the lightest touch you can muster. Then carry that with you.
# Posted on August 23rd 2003 by Will CPT
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Liz Carroll, Cathal Hayden and Zoe Conway are my favourites. I have'nt a clue why they play soft if they indeed play soft at all.
# Posted on August 23rd 2003 by Celtic1234
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Banjos, plural, can kill a nice sensitive bit of playing from the fiddles and flutes. One banjo per session is perfect, 2 tolerable, but above that....why would anyone else bother trying?
I think it's a generalisation, based on one persons experience, that good fiddle players play quietly. What about Austin Dawe, Kane O'Rourke, Breandan Mulkere or Brian Montague? Although it is true Sean Casey and Brian Rooney play quite quietly...and I've heard that Liz Carroll does the same.
WRT flutes, in my experience it's much harder to control the dynamics of the wooden species (regardless of the system, ie Boehm or simple) vis a vis the silver chap. I have noticed though that good players tend to come through strongly, nevertheless, eg Marcus Hernon, Cathal McConnell and Niall Keegan...also Paul Gallagher - but maybe the other players were displaying due deference thus playing a few decibels down...
Danny.
# Posted on August 23rd 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
In the teaching of IT fiddle, as far as technique goes, there are all the usual things - good straight bowing, intonation, dynamics, tone production etc *but*, unlike classical training, not much is made of tone *projection*, which can involve bowing heavier, faster and nearer the bridge (which will sound rougher to the player, but fine to a listener 5 feet away). Players in a session usually have no need for great volume, so they go for the softer close-to-the fingerboard tone. Plus the fact that good fiddle players in a session will want to hear the other intruments well (including their own) - another reason for the softer tone.....a confident brutal attack might be fine for a Paganini caprice - but not necessarily for a tuneful and lyrical honrpipe!
Jim
# Posted on August 23rd 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
AJ & I have a friend who had the good fortune to be able to back Liz Carroll with his guitar, just the two of them. Much to his chagrin -- as he described it -- he buried her, had to quickly adopt a gentler playing style so as to allow her to shine through. She plays very quietly.
# Posted on August 23rd 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
A distinction should be made between volume and intensity. Having less of the former does not necessarily translate into less of the latter. For the great players, it is usually the opposite. They sometimes seem like they are playing loudly, but in fact what you are experiencing is precision-guided intensity. I don't play fiddle, but on the flute it is quite difficult to maintain a very quiet but intense tone; however, being able to play a tune (on flute) on low volume but high intesity gives you dynamic room to "punch" the rhythm/accents. Also, saves on air supply, but boy does your embochure (i can never spell that freaking word!) burn.
# Posted on August 24th 2003 by Brendan
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Because they can. It's part of being good. Try it
# Posted on August 24th 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
It's funny. A friend from a town where the trad quality can tend to be not so good is here visiting for a week. Now, this isn't the center of the trad universe, but the quality of music can be quite good. One of his first remarks at a session was, "everyone plays so quietly!" His later comment was, "But, they're really good!" I had that reaction when I first moved here from where he came from. Now that I've played the music more and traveled some I've realized that it's not soft here; it's pretty normal volume.
Of course people often equate loud and fast with good, but as we know, that's not the case. I find that especially with fiddle players the louder and faster someone is playing the less likely I am to actually take something of their playing away with me. It's gimmicky. I don't know that good fiddle players try to play softly but I imagine that they're in control of their instruments. You don't want to push the instrument to its max volume all the time because there's nowhere to go for when the emotion strikes to really hit it.
I think it can take a little time to readjust your ears to appreciate the intricacies and expression that mark a really good player. Not to knock any particular players, but you have to clear your senses of high octane pseudo-trad sh!t that can cloud your tastes. Loud and fast does not equal good. It can be exciting but it isn't meaningful; it won't stick with you and get you through hard times.
Now, when you're playing with someone the goal is to play *with* them. Part of being a good trad musician is having the grace to play nicely with others. I find that when people are really blasting away volume wise (not intensity wise) that they're not actually listening to anybody but themselves. They're in the middle of a conversation and they're yelling.
I play flute and have never had to try to play quietly, as I had pretty quiet flutes. But I recently came into Hamilton and now I'm learning about volume. It's takes some skill to keep a good embouchure while trying not to blow the people around you away with this tank.
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by jerball
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Another reason is that the great fiddlers will usually have pretty good fiddles (and bows!), and are more likely to use high quality composition core covered strings which are very responsive and have a wide dynamic range.
Trevor
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Welcome back Trevor!
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Thanks Will, I've just spent a week in Clonmel at the Scoil Éigse and the Fleadh.
Trevor
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
So Trevor, start a new thread and let us pick your brains! Tell us all about it.
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
*jealous*
When can we expect the full report, T? Also perhaps a Top Ten Clonmel List? heh.
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by emily_bmore
GMTA Harmon.
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
GMTA indeed. I too would like to know who the ten best looking single men in Clonmel are....
Oh, that's *not* what you were after, Em?
(ah, Rose'll have my head on this one, for sure... ;o)
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Rose??!!! She can get in line behind me!!! Jaysus, stick the knife & pull it again Harmon.....
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
my action is very low and if i play real loud/hard the tone suffers somewhat if it is something difficult to play..sometimes, when i am playing thru my amp and baggs unit it is much better sounding to turn up a bit and not play so hard..then, there are times when i am possessed like paganini where i mimic and improvise like his style as played with all the pyrotechnics and it sounds great to play loud and maniacally..you still have to be at a level where you are accurate and have good bow control..as for all the lovely minor key and modal tunes i have found in your styles the dynamics call for the quieter playing...more meditative and it connects so well with one's inner spirit
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by hugedave
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
LOL, Sorry Em, just couldn't resist. ;o) I assume you meant players or tunes or sessions or perhaps sandwich shops....
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Yeah, I want to know about the Top Ten Sandwich Shops in Clonmel, Trevor, could you help us out with that?
While you're at it, what I'd really like is a Top Ten List of Fleadh Moments, where you heard a player that moved your soul, or witnessed a session that knocked your socks off, or received a piece of advice that really turned your playing around... that would be lovely, contributions from all attendees would be wonderful! (comments on attractive men totally 100% optional :P )
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
Sheesh, Em, I was in Clonmel for only 8 days so what would I be wanting to go to *10* sandwich shops for
Anyway, this is a little off-topic, so I'm preparing some sort of account of Clonmel and hope to get it posted today or tomorrow as a separate thread. There are some memorable moments, but I don't know whether they'll run to 10.
Trevor
# Posted on August 25th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: why do all the great fiddle players play so soft?
When someone is playing quietly and well, you'll be drawn in, compelled to listen, but you'll just ignore someone who's playing badly and quietly.
# Posted on September 1st 2003 by nastyweegirl