I'm sorry but they just must. They are not an instrument and they totally do my head in. Please tell them to stop. This youtube is a perfect example of the abomination that are spoons. Can anyone give me any sort of reason why this lovely bit of music has been trashed?
Did you catch the attempted bodhran addition in the back right of screen. It looks like someone told her to give up and then she reappeared on screen doing a sort of dance, for want of a better description.
Great music from those girls and you can just about learn to block out the sound of the spoons if you try hard. Every time I hear spoons I can't help but hear the spoons murder song in my head.
LOL - a few years back we had a minor insurrection at our local over a spoons player. I have to admit, he didn't bother me that much - played in time, knew the tunes and tempos, etc - but he apparently wore the nerves raw on nearly everyone else in the place since he clickety-clacked the dinner ware on every single tune all night long. Frustration eventually boiled over and, rather than politely discuss the situation - he was driven from the pub under a flurry of insults and expletives. Poor b@stard never had a chance...
If memory serves - Mr. Phantom Button has a tune called the "spoons murder" that is worth a listen and laugh if you can find the link....
You gave me a good laugh there Jusa, "knew the tunes" LOL. I can just imagine him at home practicing the spoons, putting the tunes into sets and working out nice variations.
The Spoons Murder - found on It's No Secret Hammy Hamilton, Seamus Creagh, Con O Drisceoil
Spoons
The Spoons Murder
by Con O'Drisceoil
In the tavern one night we were sitting
I'm sure 'twas the last week in March;
From our drinks we were cautiously sipping
To ensure that our throats didn't parch.
We played music both lively and dacent
To bolster our spirits and hopes,
And we gazed at the females adjacent
And remarked on their curves and their slopes.
Til a gent wandered into the session
And decided to join in the tunes:
Without waiting to ask our permission
He took out a large pair of soup-spoons.
Our teeth in short time we were gritting
As he shook and he rattled his toys,
And the company's eardrums were splitting
With his ugly mechanical noise.
Hopping spoons off our heads to provoke us
He continued the music to kill;
Whether hornpipes, slow airs or Polkas
They all sounded like pneumatic drills.
Then he asked if we'd play any faster
As his talent he wished to display
With a grin on the face of the bastard
Like the cat as she teases her prey.
Our feelings by now were quite bloody
And politely we asked him to quit
We suggested a part of his body
Where those spoons might conveniently fit.
This monster we pestered and hounded
We implored him with curses and tears,
But in vain our appeals they resounded
In the desert between his two ears.
When I went out the back on a mission
He arrived as I finished my leak
He says "this is a mighty fine session
I think I'll come here every week".
When I heard this, with rage I was leppin'
No more of this torture I'd take
I looked 'round for a suitable weapon
To silence this damn rattlesnake.
Outside towards the yard I did sally
To find something to vanquish my foe.
I grabbed hold of a gentleman's Raleigh
With 15 speed gear and dynamo.
Then I battered this musical vandal
As I shouted with furious cries
"My dear man your last spoon you have handled
Say your prayers and await your demise."
With the bike I assailed my tormentor
As I swung in a frenzy of hate
Til his bones and his skull were in splinters
And his health in a very poor state.
And when I was no longer able
I forestalled any last minute hitch
By removing the gear-changing cable
And strangling the sonofabitch.
At the end of my onslaught ferocious
I stood back and surveyed the scene.
The state of the place was atrocious
Full of fragments of man and machine.
At the spoon's players remains I was staring
His condition was surely no joke
For his nose was clogged with ball-bearings
And his left eye was pierced by a spoke.
At the sight I was feeling quite squeamish
So I washed up and went back inside
Then I drank a half gallon of Beamish
For my throat in the struggle had dried.
Unpolluted by cutleries clattered
The music was pleasant and sweet
For the rest of the night nothing mattered
But the tunes and the tapping of feet
At the inquest the following September
The coroner said "I conclude
The deceased by himself was dismembered
As no sign could be found of a feud.
And the evidence shows that the fact is,
As reported to me by the Guards
He indulged in the foolhardy practice
Of trick-cycling in public house yards.
So if you're desperately keen on percussion
And to join in the tunes you can't wait
Be you Irishman, German, or Russian
Take a lesson from his awful fate.
If your spoons are the best silver-plated
Or the humblest of cheap stainless steel
If you play them abroad, you'll be hated
So just use them for eating your meals
I think it's in the documentary film Rocky Road to Dublin that you see spoons being played at a virtuoso level in a Dublin pub. The fiddle player, who wasn't actually on camera when the spoons player was being filmed, apparently was young Tommy Peoples - but he did briefly come into shot when the tune had finished.
(I hope I've remembered all that correctly - it's quite a while since I saw that film.)
dannym, it must have something to do with your age. And I don't mean that to be unkind...I find that the older I get, the more annoyed I am by sharp sounds like spoons and bones and percussion in general. Take care of your ears---stay away from loud music.
Now Jusa, tell the rest of the story.
The spoons in question were gigantic, and carved from rosewood!
When not rattling the spoons, he would busy himself with beating upon a djembe.
(sometimes WITH the spoons)
Everyone was most tolerant for weeks and weeks.
The final straw was when he showed up and announced that he had a PICKUP (mic)
installed in the spoons and was trying to decide what AMPLIFIER would be good
to bring along to the session.
Two people brought wirecutters to the session for the next three weeks - just in case.
ah...that's why I love my keyless delrin flute...trad, but not loud and whiney...at least the spoons player on that video had good rhythm. Imagine what it would have been like if the spooner had slowed down or speeded up?
Yes, his playing is precise, if simple and repetitive. I don't have a problem with what he's doing.
Some people don't like pipes, some don't like accordians, some don't like banjoes, some don't like pianos, some don't like bouzoukis - etc., etc. Some don't like it when a passerby performs a spontaneous made-up dance in response to music. No requirement that anyone else has to share their dislikes.
I'm loving that bloke at the end of the clip with the beard he just gives the slightest nod in acknowledgement of the grest music he has just heard. That's what you call good street music.
Good grief meself, spoons in the same category as pipes etc!!! Surely anyone with two ears, or even one, can hear that far from adding to the music that spoon racket is making a mockery of it.
These lassies have spent countless hours learning and honing their skills, listening, observing and practising. Then along comes Noddy with some kitchen untensils and goes clickety-clack. I wonder if they argue about different settings and how they should learn the tunes? One says to the other "You played a click there where it should have been a clack". "No I didn't, that's how it's written n the session.org", the other replied. "Aha, you should have learned it by ear" says the first spoonist.
No, sorry, everyone must pull together and stand up against spoonists, table bangers, coinists and pinters. They are an abomination.
How much of the problem is the need for and general inability to produce millisecond accuracy in the timing of a sharp click and how much that they are unneccesary and innapropriate even if played well ? Just occasionally (1 in a 100 maybe) it seems to fit in the same way that snappy percussion does in other situations (castanets, hard sole shoes, pipe band drummers , those box things in ceili bands).
You know what else needs to stop? Bodhran players who play the wooden edge of the drum. That kills my ears, especially because it always takes me by surprise---here they are, going along, thumpety-thump, which is usually okay, and then *THWACK*, and I look around to see where that horrible sound came from, and then *THWACK*, there it goes again, several times more until the end of the tune. Ugh.
All percussion instruments are unnecessary and therefore inappropriate in Irish diddley music. The music itself is so complexly percussive that any addition is mere repetition.
There are so many subtle ways of accenting notes and having some fecking clack or thwack or whump or thump right on the nose of someone's decision to bow or not, tongue or not, cut or not, is like looking at a marvellous painting with a sheet of tracing paper over it.
Heed these words all you clackers, thwackers, whumpers and thumpers. Give up NOW. If you like this music and want to play it, then learn all of it, not just half of it. Learn to play a proper feckin' instrument.
It is nice to see how the guy in the background stops the bodhran player before the bodran completely ruins the music. The spoons are ok in my opinion ;)
I think what I find most shocking in this thread is the number of people who have listened to the original video and commented "that's not too bad". It isn't! The whole situation is horrible. Even assuming spoons can be played well, these are not. They may be "in time", but they are played in a manner that is unrelated to the tunes that are being played.
Not only that but this whole "participative" thing really gets my goat. These girls are playing some music together and this guy appears with some spoons (and then the one with the bodhran). What do they think it is? some kind of free for all where barging in and clacking away is acceptable? I can't think of any actual musician who would actually think that joining in without so much as a "by your leave" is acceptable social behaviour
(of course, there is the possibility that he is actually a mate of theirs, but... seems kind of unlikely to me).
Way to rip the calico in that second tune by the way.
I'll make no "bones" about it. If someone has "forked" out for a set of "spoons" to use with TM, I reckon that we should all stick the "knife" in. We've enough on our "plate" without having to worry about offal or cutlery! "Food" for thought, maybe?
On the other hand, maybe we should all take our cue from this pub name:
We have a regular spoon player at one session. He is most welcome.
At another session a few weeks ago I had the Honour of having Christy Barry accompanying a few fiddle tunes, on spoons so that was Fiddle, Bodhran and spoons .
Any instrument played badly deserves slagging , any instrument played well deserves praise.
You guys are great, absolutely hilarious. Thanks for the morning smiles.
I second the motions by the right honorable representative from Edinburgh. There is something patently offensive about taking the time and dedication to properly learn tunes on a melody instrument, only to have some ignoramus beat something poorly without regard to what you're doing.
Sure, melody and accompanying instruments can be played horrendously as well, without regard for the racket they are making, or what the other musicians are doing, and that's quite offensive as well, but there's something particularly grating about poor percussion.
That being said, I'm lucky to play with a real ace of a goat skin whacker who has been a drummer his whole life. He listens to the music, he plays with interest and sensitivity, but then again, the man is a drummer, it's what he does. Played in pipe bands, jazz quartets, rock bands, etc.
Unfortunately, percussion, more than any other instrument, seems to attract large quantities that special kind of eejit that doesn't care what sort of noise they are making, or what the other musicians are playing.
"Have you ever been to a session where someone is beating a Susato whistle against table" asks Silver Spear. I know people who would think that was marginally preferable to actually blowing on a Susato.
I've never heard bones played tastefully. I don't think it's possible---they're just too loud by their nature.
And the spoons in the original clip were played well enough. The issues are that a) they're too loud (no volume control), and b) they clash with the instruments.
Bogman - I'm sure you thought I was joking when I said the spooner in question "knew" the tunes. Actually the man told he had spent quite a bit of time working out "spoon parts" to Cup of Tea and few other reels. What can you say, you gotta tip your hat for the effort, I suppose...
Fr. Jack! Clearly your memory of the event is better than mine - I had completely forgotten about his threats to bring in electrified spoons and an amp.
I have a set of bones made by a member here on the site...Steve Brown. Who's also a great player and a champion player ....the bones he made me a lovely. And have a lovely dry soft sound. Not loud. You can vary the tone if need be. There are diff ways to do that. And good bones players, like good bodhran players, know how to do that AND be musically interesting while not competing with the melody players.
but we've been down this boringroad before on The Session. suffice it to say good bohdran players and bones players exist...you can hear them on recordings if you choose and if you've never met any...what can I say?
and btw...if you don't play either instrument you simply have NO idea of either's possibilities and/ or the technical skill required to do either justice.
If you and MG don't like em...hey, that's your choice. No worries. Each to their own.
I don't play the pipes, but I have conciderably more than just an idea of their possibilities and/ or the technical skill required to do them justice. You have a silly argument.
And though you are right, in that it's an irelavance that I dislike percussion instruments in Irish diddley muisc, what is not irrelavent is that percussion instruments are unnecessary and therefore inappropriate in Irish diddley music. The music itself is so complexly percussive that any addition is mere repetition.
Kennedy, neccessary or not, because "b) they clash with the instruments" they were not "played well enough." Its a bit like letting most non-percussionists loose with a triangle, unless they are accompanying their own singing.
mtodd, if you can find me a YouTube clip of someone playing bones who you think does a nice job of it and that isn't too loud, I'm willing to watch. Until then, I remain very skeptical. I think a lot of people who play these percussion instruments don't realize how loud they sound to others. Or they do, and they sit off to the side so that they're not in the middle of things. Or they do, and they sit next to you anyway and make it hard to hear which tune is playing.
That being said, I'm not attacking bodhrans. I sat right next to a bodhran plaer last week who had a really quiet one that made a nice sound, and he had a good sense of rhythm too. I wish that were the case with every bodhran player I meet. So many of them just sound like tom toms played with drumsticks. It's awful.
''percussion instruments are unnecessary and therefore 'inappropriate in Irish diddley music.''''
Oh christ,So now not only can Mary MacNammara not play Irish music right but the Traditional drum of Ireland is ''inappropriate in Irish diddley music.''
Not only do you spout gibberish like that but you manage to do it in an offensive manner.! unbelievable. 'diddley music'
Michael, what do you mean by 'unnecessary and therefore inappropriate'. Spoons are hideous, end of story. But tasteful and, most importantly, infrequently played, percussion instruments like bodhrán and bones can be quite a nice accompaniment to tunes played on certain instruments I find. Mary Bergin's first album springs to mind.
Guitar accompaniment is unnecessary, but I don't think it's inappropriate if it's played well. I would also consider guitar to be largely percussive, if it's strummed. Do you play only with other melody players, all the time?
Happy New Year llig!
Still spouting rubbish I see - "the music itself is so complexly percussive" is simply nonsense. I imagine you mean rhythmical and even then then it's not that complex, really.
OK you don't like percussion . Nobody does when it's played insensitively and for my taste spoons and clicking coins are horrible. But good bodhran playing is great to hear. Let's not chuck the baby out with the bath water when it comes to discussing the role of percussion in music making.
Hi Floss the Teathers, I never knew that! Amazing what you learn each day. And in turn I wish I didn't know what a "money shot" was - there I was naively assuming it was the trajectory of a coin being tossed into a hat...until I discovered Heineken!
...and back on the subject at hand (as it were), when I worked in radio drama, any live effects involving cutlery (not just spoons!) would require really quiet use of said implements, as the sound is known to "cut through" other sounds - ie, it's very easily audible because of the particular frequencies being those at which our ears are most sensitive (centered around 2kHz).
So aside from the musical argument, there's an acoustic one, which is about players being sensitive to the sounds around them and the way these particular things are more than usually audible.
I like the playing of the three young women in the Comhaltas clip but (like others above) there is something pretty insensitive about the way the people in the background feel it's OK to just blarge on in and add their stuff to the music. Still, if you perform in a public place (the street), then I guess you can't really complain.
That's the thing, I would imagine for passers by it would be a great to see talented young musicians playing in the street. But I'm sure the musicians (the ones playing the real instruments) would soon get sick of it if every second person who's worked out how to bang two things together thinks it's ok just to pile in. It really is gross ignorance.
llig, you're mixing up the meaning of percussive with rythmical. percussive relates to something that is operated by striking. i think what you are trying to say is the music has rythm in itself so that it does not necessarily need a bodhran, bones, etc. but i would disagree with the comment about repetition, it is not entirely repetition. tasteful bodhran players like jonny ringo and colm murphy play to the beat of the tune, subtley throwing in counterpoints. it is the counterpoint is playing around with the standard rythm of the tune. putting emhasis in different rythms can change the sound of tune entirely. to say bodhran playing is repetition sounds like it makes sense. but what people might take from that is that you mean a session without a bodhran sound the same as one with. i think you're nit picking a bit much.if you looked you could say that there is repetition in everything. if someone plays two different tunes in G you could say that they are just repeating the same notes only in a different order. irish music is in itself repetition of tunes. but does it really matter?
Look i don't know what all the fuss is about "Spoon players" are welcome in sessions round my parts just so long as Uri Geller is sitting in on the session too.
"Is "over-the-top-foot stomping" a bit like overarm bowling?
I'd quite like to see this in a session.
- Chris"
Umm, well actually, you wouldn't. I had one two weeks ago at my session. A young Mexican kid who was sh*te-faced drunk and stomping so loud I could hardly hear anything else. Fortunately our hammered dulcimer player got rid of him inside of about 30 seconds. LOL
Hmmm... hammered dulcimer is percussion, right?
Bodhran and spoons players are certainly welcome at my session, Just as long as they don't feel the need to play with EVERY tune or song.
Not every ITM tune should have percussion. But some tunes are just plain better with it. I have to admit though, I prefer the spoons in small quantities. They're great for intros or the final rousing 16 bars of a hearty set of jigs or reels. Just not ALL the way through the set.
Not that rythmically complex? I suppose that would be why so many people spend so much time trying to master and understand diddley music. And why so many people who are otherwise excellent musicians are only able to render a pale imitation.
Oh well... at least you guys make for an entertaining read.
I don't really mind a good spoon player as long as he or she is playing in right key, but I have to confess I'm a tad bit jealous of them, because having just played a very hard tune that took me ages to learn, the spoon player is the one person in a session that most tourists wants to have a chat with eg: "How do you hold the spoons and can my wife have a go" "Can you guys play something fast for my wife" and then the final insult is when the tourist is leaving and he directs his appreciation to the spoon player "How often do you play here and thanks for the wonderful music" Then again let us not forget the dancer or dancers. You know the ones, just like the girl in Bogman's utube link. They take over the only vacant patch of ground right in front of my chair and to everybody's delight (except the musicians) they thrill the crowd with their lack of timing and expertise and end up falling over the musicians. Oh..the joys of playing Traditional music..now where is that guy with the coin and the glass........
ITM is incredibly rich and complex rhythmically... when played right. Scottish Traditional music also. That is why playing with a good percussionist is such fun, they respond to every twist and turn, return and extemporise upon the rhythms within each tune . Each tune is also unique in these contours. IMO This is also why playing with bad percussionists/rhythm players is so dire, because they stomp all over the subtleties with their one size fits all approach. So I can certainly sympathise with the sentiment ...Arrgghhh!
No, I'm not mixing up the meanings of percussive with rhythmic at all.
The rhythmic elements of the music are of course vital. The specific placings of notes as accents, a little before the beat for that apprehensive feeling, a little after for that hold your breath thing, bang on for the drive ... and all in just a couple of bars.
Percussive and rhythmic are linked, of course. But in its physical nature, the music is percussive. That's how you play it. Think of how you tap the holes on your flute and pipes, Think of how you strike certain notes with just your breath. Think of how you flick or tap a string. Think of how you apply that tiny extra pressure to crunch some notes with your bow
Think of the subtleties of little taps and flicks, and the delicacy of striking the muisc with nothing more than your breath.
And then think of the obliteration of all that music by meaningless thwacks and ear splitting clacks.
ah, but is it not up to the player to make it percussive? ive heard lots of players who simply play straight down the line mechanical music. so really would it not be truer to say that the percussive element is more subjective rather than it actually being in the music?
I agree with you Llig. Spoons are for soups and desserts, period.
You could certainly say there 's a percussive element to the use of ornamentation on the flute, whistle, or pipes with all those cuts, taps, etc. A cran is certainly percussive as well as rhythmic.
Put another way: your run of the mill bad spoons player is as useless as t1ts on a bull, to borrow one from Tansey.
That's a nice music video Llig. Not sure about the rhythm guitar (a percussion instrument) in the second tune though. I don't think it belonged there really. Nice music though. Hee hee . . .
>The 'spoon' is actually a very basic shot in pornographic films >because it reveals all the parts that Heineken usually failed >to reach.
We've never had this style of spoons down at the OM, but there is always hope. Although I can imagine it would be rather intrusive.
The consensus here appears to be that the racket of spoons kills the massed ranks of fiddles & accordeons. I'm rather afraid that Mrs Pitchfork has been badly short changed.
The reason the spoons sound distracting is because we're not used to hearing them on a regular basis. If more people learned to play them and brought them to sessions, we'd all get more used to them and we'd be able to appreciate their more subtle aspects.
''percussion instruments are unnecessary and therefore 'inappropriate in Irish diddley music.''''
Only in your opinion Michael. Only in your opinion. Which is simply that...an opinion, not gospel.
98% of the time your insights into this music are dead on...but this is not one of those times. And as far as the bodhran having no place in ITM? Simply not true. I refer you to a series of 3 scholarly articles that appeared during the 07/08 year in Comhaltas' magazine which outlined how the drum HAS in fact had a long (albeit somewhat covert) relationship with ITM...in the hundreds of years in fact.
There are many excellent recording without bodhrans. There are many with. There are many BAD recordings of ITM without bodhrans, and some with. And the same goes for other instruments that are in the accompaniment category.
It's a matter of taste as Kennedy alluded to, and too often, I agree with her, taste is lacking...
Kennedy: I appreciate your take on the bones...indeed I have a pair that are lovely but simply too loud to the point that they are intursive...so I stopped using them...Steve Brown's pair aren't like that...but even then a player is best to use them sparingly and not just simply click clack away through the whole of a tune....the idea is to do it only for a few phrases here and there.
You know, about two years ago I met a piper/player [I won't say who since it would be name dropping] who hails from your neck of the woods -- Scotland...well known. Makes a variety of pipes, & he was over in Nova Scotia for a festival [Boxwood]. He heard me playing bodhran with some people and actually came over and asked if we could have a few tunes together....which we did for 15 minutes or so. He loved my playing. Now I didn't ask him, it was the reverse. We had a great time and he was quite complimentary and loved the style/sound of the drum [an O'kane] with his border pipes.
...what can I say? He is a great player and maker and he appreciates bodhran. You don't. So what?
sorry, this last bit below is addressed to MG, not Kennedy.
"You know, about two years ago I met a piper/player [I won't say who since it would be name dropping] who hails from your neck of the woods -- Scotland...well known. Makes a variety of pipes, & he was over in Nova Scotia for a festival [Boxwood]. He heard me playing bodhran with some people and actually came over and asked if we could have a few tunes together....which we did for 15 minutes or so. He loved my playing. Now I didn't ask him, it was the reverse. We had a great time and he was quite complimentary and loved the style/sound of the drum [an O'kane] with his border pipes
...what can I say? He is a great player and maker and he appreciates bodhran. You don't. So what?
Great clip Llig, but that was a harsh cut-off, I was grooving and working.
We've been down this path a million times, but here goes again.
Ya got eejits. Eejits play all kinds of instruments. Percussion and accompanying instruments attract more eejits than melody instruments, probably because of some (mistaken) perception of how 'easy' they are to play. They're also more dangerous, sound-wise. You can diddle quietly with a flute or fiddle...but then again, a shrieky noodling whistle or box is also quite lethal.
So again, as usual, the problem is not instruments, it's eejits.
Or, as someone said on here one of the previous times I spouted this from my soapbox, "Instruments don't kill sessions, eejits with instruments kill sessions."
I don't dislike the bodhran per say. In good recordings it can be very effective. My two fav bodhran players are Christy Moor and Donal Lunny. I think my favourite bodhran recording is Donnal Lunny playing on a David Hammond record.
Recorded arranged music is a different thing to thwacking away against diddley tunes.
And I'm not interested in discussing bad players, we are all in agreement on that. I'm interested in discussing good percussion players, and the pointlessness of it. The pointlessness of merely tunelessy repeating what the tune is already doing.
And as for the mantra of the NRA. banning guns really does save lives. Of that there is no doubt.
Donal's playing is quite lovely and hugely subtle, I'll agree with you there. I'd bet it's also greatly informed by the fact he plays a melody instrument[s] and so he understands the music at an entirely different level than most bodhran players who do not play a melody instrument. He leaves players "room" and it shows.
You are correct Llig. Listening to Clare FM Kitchen Session now. I don't think I've ever heard a single piece of percussion on this show, and it sounds just lovely.
'Room' is the key word. Constant accompaniment is claustrophobic, I agree.
SWFL Fiddler,
if you're listening to the second show, at 72' 45'' a set of 2 jigs starts (Queen Of The Fair + The Carraroe) with a backing of something that sounds like bones to my ears. But it's a much less piercing sound than that of the spoons in the clip linked by Bogman.
Aha! Thanks Ramiro, yes, I'm giving it a listen now. I've fallen into a Saturday morning ritual of listening to the show.
We have a Kitchen Session percussion sighting! (hearing?)
Talk about room, the lads and lasses didn't give Paula much 'room' to ruminate as she usually does, eh? Not that I don't enjoy hearing her dulcet tones, mind you, but it's nice to hear them keep cracking away it at.
Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKC8OK_jYP0
I'm sorry but they just must. They are not an instrument and they totally do my head in. Please tell them to stop. This youtube is a perfect example of the abomination that are spoons. Can anyone give me any sort of reason why this lovely bit of music has been trashed?
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
But the girls are fantastic! Really lovely playing on their part. Thanks for posting it, Bogman, even if it was to complain about the spoons ;)
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Glass of Beer
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Did you catch the attempted bodhran addition in the back right of screen. It looks like someone told her to give up and then she reappeared on screen doing a sort of dance, for want of a better description.
Great music from those girls and you can just about learn to block out the sound of the spoons if you try hard. Every time I hear spoons I can't help but hear the spoons murder song in my head.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Donough
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
LOL - a few years back we had a minor insurrection at our local over a spoons player. I have to admit, he didn't bother me that much - played in time, knew the tunes and tempos, etc - but he apparently wore the nerves raw on nearly everyone else in the place since he clickety-clacked the dinner ware on every single tune all night long. Frustration eventually boiled over and, rather than politely discuss the situation - he was driven from the pub under a flurry of insults and expletives. Poor b@stard never had a chance...
If memory serves - Mr. Phantom Button has a tune called the "spoons murder" that is worth a listen and laugh if you can find the link....
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
You gave me a good laugh there Jusa,
"knew the tunes" LOL. I can just imagine him at home practicing the spoons, putting the tunes into sets and working out nice variations.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Please, please Mr P Button, put your tune up here in some way so that I can learn it.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/7549
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Jumper
The Spoons Murder - found on It's No Secret Hammy Hamilton, Seamus Creagh, Con O Drisceoil
Spoons
The Spoons Murder
by Con O'Drisceoil
In the tavern one night we were sitting
I'm sure 'twas the last week in March;
From our drinks we were cautiously sipping
To ensure that our throats didn't parch.
We played music both lively and dacent
To bolster our spirits and hopes,
And we gazed at the females adjacent
And remarked on their curves and their slopes.
Til a gent wandered into the session
And decided to join in the tunes:
Without waiting to ask our permission
He took out a large pair of soup-spoons.
Our teeth in short time we were gritting
As he shook and he rattled his toys,
And the company's eardrums were splitting
With his ugly mechanical noise.
Hopping spoons off our heads to provoke us
He continued the music to kill;
Whether hornpipes, slow airs or Polkas
They all sounded like pneumatic drills.
Then he asked if we'd play any faster
As his talent he wished to display
With a grin on the face of the bastard
Like the cat as she teases her prey.
Our feelings by now were quite bloody
And politely we asked him to quit
We suggested a part of his body
Where those spoons might conveniently fit.
This monster we pestered and hounded
We implored him with curses and tears,
But in vain our appeals they resounded
In the desert between his two ears.
When I went out the back on a mission
He arrived as I finished my leak
He says "this is a mighty fine session
I think I'll come here every week".
When I heard this, with rage I was leppin'
No more of this torture I'd take
I looked 'round for a suitable weapon
To silence this damn rattlesnake.
Outside towards the yard I did sally
To find something to vanquish my foe.
I grabbed hold of a gentleman's Raleigh
With 15 speed gear and dynamo.
Then I battered this musical vandal
As I shouted with furious cries
"My dear man your last spoon you have handled
Say your prayers and await your demise."
With the bike I assailed my tormentor
As I swung in a frenzy of hate
Til his bones and his skull were in splinters
And his health in a very poor state.
And when I was no longer able
I forestalled any last minute hitch
By removing the gear-changing cable
And strangling the sonofabitch.
At the end of my onslaught ferocious
I stood back and surveyed the scene.
The state of the place was atrocious
Full of fragments of man and machine.
At the spoon's players remains I was staring
His condition was surely no joke
For his nose was clogged with ball-bearings
And his left eye was pierced by a spoke.
At the sight I was feeling quite squeamish
So I washed up and went back inside
Then I drank a half gallon of Beamish
For my throat in the struggle had dried.
Unpolluted by cutleries clattered
The music was pleasant and sweet
For the rest of the night nothing mattered
But the tunes and the tapping of feet
At the inquest the following September
The coroner said "I conclude
The deceased by himself was dismembered
As no sign could be found of a feud.
And the evidence shows that the fact is,
As reported to me by the Guards
He indulged in the foolhardy practice
Of trick-cycling in public house yards.
So if you're desperately keen on percussion
And to join in the tunes you can't wait
Be you Irishman, German, or Russian
Take a lesson from his awful fate.
If your spoons are the best silver-plated
Or the humblest of cheap stainless steel
If you play them abroad, you'll be hated
So just use them for eating your meals
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by David Levine
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Would I be hated if I said I didn't mind them...???
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by dannym
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I think it's in the documentary film Rocky Road to Dublin that you see spoons being played at a virtuoso level in a Dublin pub. The fiddle player, who wasn't actually on camera when the spoons player was being filmed, apparently was young Tommy Peoples - but he did briefly come into shot when the tune had finished.
(I hope I've remembered all that correctly - it's quite a while since I saw that film.)
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
At least they weren't bones. Bones are worse.
dannym, it must have something to do with your age. And I don't mean that to be unkind...I find that the older I get, the more annoyed I am by sharp sounds like spoons and bones and percussion in general. Take care of your ears---stay away from loud music.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Now Jusa, tell the rest of the story.
The spoons in question were gigantic, and carved from rosewood!
When not rattling the spoons, he would busy himself with beating upon a djembe.
(sometimes WITH the spoons)
Everyone was most tolerant for weeks and weeks.
The final straw was when he showed up and announced that he had a PICKUP (mic)
installed in the spoons and was trying to decide what AMPLIFIER would be good
to bring along to the session.
Two people brought wirecutters to the session for the next three weeks - just in case.
J
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Fr.Jack
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
ah...that's why I love my keyless delrin flute...trad, but not loud and whiney...at least the spoons player on that video had good rhythm. Imagine what it would have been like if the spooner had slowed down or speeded up?
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Yes, his playing is precise, if simple and repetitive. I don't have a problem with what he's doing.
Some people don't like pipes, some don't like accordians, some don't like banjoes, some don't like pianos, some don't like bouzoukis - etc., etc. Some don't like it when a passerby performs a spontaneous made-up dance in response to music. No requirement that anyone else has to share their dislikes.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by meself
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Kennedy, please add to your list, those f'in eejits who click away at a Pint Tumbler with a coin!
They get right up my nose ... too!
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Rubbish ... some people like music, and some eedjits don't know what music is.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I'm loving that bloke at the end of the clip with the beard he just gives the slightest nod in acknowledgement of the grest music he has just heard. That's what you call good street music.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by upmine3
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Good grief meself, spoons in the same category as pipes etc!!! Surely anyone with two ears, or even one, can hear that far from adding to the music that spoon racket is making a mockery of it.
These lassies have spent countless hours learning and honing their skills, listening, observing and practising. Then along comes Noddy with some kitchen untensils and goes clickety-clack. I wonder if they argue about different settings and how they should learn the tunes? One says to the other "You played a click there where it should have been a clack". "No I didn't, that's how it's written n the session.org", the other replied. "Aha, you should have learned it by ear" says the first spoonist.
No, sorry, everyone must pull together and stand up against spoonists, table bangers, coinists and pinters. They are an abomination.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
too right
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9423
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
funny.
"Well, that's the way I learned it in County..."
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I'm sure someone can come up with a "stop the spoons" T-shirt.
I've heard "spoons" in reference to sleeping positions...maybe that's how they breed?
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
How much of the problem is the need for and general inability to produce millisecond accuracy in the timing of a sharp click and how much that they are unneccesary and innapropriate even if played well ? Just occasionally (1 in a 100 maybe) it seems to fit in the same way that snappy percussion does in other situations (castanets, hard sole shoes, pipe band drummers , those box things in ceili bands).
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by David50
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
You know what else needs to stop? Bodhran players who play the wooden edge of the drum. That kills my ears, especially because it always takes me by surprise---here they are, going along, thumpety-thump, which is usually okay, and then *THWACK*, and I look around to see where that horrible sound came from, and then *THWACK*, there it goes again, several times more until the end of the tune. Ugh.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
It could always be worse.
Have you ever been to a session where someone is beating a Susato whistle against table on all the tunes they didn't know?
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Tambourines....Nooooo...must...repress...memory...arrgh!
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
All percussion instruments are unnecessary and therefore inappropriate in Irish diddley music. The music itself is so complexly percussive that any addition is mere repetition.
There are so many subtle ways of accenting notes and having some fecking clack or thwack or whump or thump right on the nose of someone's decision to bow or not, tongue or not, cut or not, is like looking at a marvellous painting with a sheet of tracing paper over it.
Heed these words all you clackers, thwackers, whumpers and thumpers. Give up NOW. If you like this music and want to play it, then learn all of it, not just half of it. Learn to play a proper feckin' instrument.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
It is nice to see how the guy in the background stops the bodhran player before the bodran completely ruins the music. The spoons are ok in my opinion ;)
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by houlberg
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I think what I find most shocking in this thread is the number of people who have listened to the original video and commented "that's not too bad". It isn't! The whole situation is horrible. Even assuming spoons can be played well, these are not. They may be "in time", but they are played in a manner that is unrelated to the tunes that are being played.
Not only that but this whole "participative" thing really gets my goat. These girls are playing some music together and this guy appears with some spoons (and then the one with the bodhran). What do they think it is? some kind of free for all where barging in and clacking away is acceptable? I can't think of any actual musician who would actually think that joining in without so much as a "by your leave" is acceptable social behaviour
(of course, there is the possibility that he is actually a mate of theirs, but... seems kind of unlikely to me).
Way to rip the calico in that second tune by the way.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Tirno
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
There are millions of us out there llig. If we send out an sos, oh never mind
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
millions? Gee, thanks for reminding me.
I guess there's trillions of mosquitos too. Feckin parasites the lot of you
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Plastic coffee spoons are alright, so long as they have a layer of congealed coffee, whitener and sugar on them to dull the high freeks a bit.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
... and they're in the room next door
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
...sealed inside a vacuum canister...
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Ragaman speaks with some authority on this subject because, as some will remember, in a previous incarnation he was known as "spoon"
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by murfbox
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
... in a fish tank full of pirañas
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
...with a little drop of blood just to sharpen up their appetite
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by john knoss
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
... a bit of goat's blood
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I'll make no "bones" about it. If someone has "forked" out for a set of "spoons" to use with TM, I reckon that we should all stick the "knife" in. We've enough on our "plate" without having to worry about offal or cutlery! "Food" for thought, maybe?
On the other hand, maybe we should all take our cue from this pub name:
http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/24/24651/Live_and_Let_Live_Inn/Blagdon
Bodhrans? Look on the bright side - more bodhrans, less goats!
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
We have a regular spoon player at one session. He is most welcome.
At another session a few weeks ago I had the Honour of having Christy Barry accompanying a few fiddle tunes, on spoons so that was Fiddle, Bodhran and spoons .
Any instrument played badly deserves slagging , any instrument played well deserves praise.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
You guys are great, absolutely hilarious. Thanks for the morning smiles.
I second the motions by the right honorable representative from Edinburgh. There is something patently offensive about taking the time and dedication to properly learn tunes on a melody instrument, only to have some ignoramus beat something poorly without regard to what you're doing.
Sure, melody and accompanying instruments can be played horrendously as well, without regard for the racket they are making, or what the other musicians are doing, and that's quite offensive as well, but there's something particularly grating about poor percussion.
That being said, I'm lucky to play with a real ace of a goat skin whacker who has been a drummer his whole life. He listens to the music, he plays with interest and sensitivity, but then again, the man is a drummer, it's what he does. Played in pipe bands, jazz quartets, rock bands, etc.
Unfortunately, percussion, more than any other instrument, seems to attract large quantities that special kind of eejit that doesn't care what sort of noise they are making, or what the other musicians are playing.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
"Have you ever been to a session where someone is beating a Susato whistle against table" asks Silver Spear. I know people who would think that was marginally preferable to actually blowing on a Susato.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by RichardB
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Bones? Bodhrans?
Well, what about over-the-top-foot stomping my lads? You don't think THAT's intrusive?
Like everything...it's a matter of taste and restraint.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Every festival organiser should book this man!
http://www.skepticreport.com/psychicpowers/urispoon.htm
Hmmmmm ..... I wonder if he gives lessons.
If so, they should book him to take a class at Miltown, this year!
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I've never heard bones played tastefully. I don't think it's possible---they're just too loud by their nature.
And the spoons in the original clip were played well enough. The issues are that a) they're too loud (no volume control), and b) they clash with the instruments.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Is "over-the-top-foot stomping" a bit like overarm bowling?
I'd quite like to see this in a session.
- Chris
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Bogman - I'm sure you thought I was joking when I said the spooner in question "knew" the tunes. Actually the man told he had spent quite a bit of time working out "spoon parts" to Cup of Tea and few other reels. What can you say, you gotta tip your hat for the effort, I suppose...
Fr. Jack! Clearly your memory of the event is better than mine - I had completely forgotten about his threats to bring in electrified spoons and an amp.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
kennedy
you're wrong. I play bones. Well, and tastefully.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
ps. you're also wrong about the loudness factor
I have a set of bones made by a member here on the site...Steve Brown. Who's also a great player and a champion player ....the bones he made me a lovely. And have a lovely dry soft sound. Not loud. You can vary the tone if need be. There are diff ways to do that. And good bones players, like good bodhran players, know how to do that AND be musically interesting while not competing with the melody players.
but we've been down this boringroad before on The Session. suffice it to say good bohdran players and bones players exist...you can hear them on recordings if you choose and if you've never met any...what can I say?
and btw...if you don't play either instrument you simply have NO idea of either's possibilities and/ or the technical skill required to do either justice.
If you and MG don't like em...hey, that's your choice. No worries. Each to their own.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I don't play the pipes, but I have conciderably more than just an idea of their possibilities and/ or the technical skill required to do them justice. You have a silly argument.
And though you are right, in that it's an irelavance that I dislike percussion instruments in Irish diddley muisc, what is not irrelavent is that percussion instruments are unnecessary and therefore inappropriate in Irish diddley music. The music itself is so complexly percussive that any addition is mere repetition.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Kennedy, neccessary or not, because "b) they clash with the instruments" they were not "played well enough." Its a bit like letting most non-percussionists loose with a triangle, unless they are accompanying their own singing.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by David50
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
mtodd, if you can find me a YouTube clip of someone playing bones who you think does a nice job of it and that isn't too loud, I'm willing to watch. Until then, I remain very skeptical. I think a lot of people who play these percussion instruments don't realize how loud they sound to others. Or they do, and they sit off to the side so that they're not in the middle of things. Or they do, and they sit next to you anyway and make it hard to hear which tune is playing.
That being said, I'm not attacking bodhrans. I sat right next to a bodhran plaer last week who had a really quiet one that made a nice sound, and he had a good sense of rhythm too. I wish that were the case with every bodhran player I meet. So many of them just sound like tom toms played with drumsticks. It's awful.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
''percussion instruments are unnecessary and therefore 'inappropriate in Irish diddley music.''''
Oh christ,So now not only can Mary MacNammara not play Irish music right but the Traditional drum of Ireland is ''inappropriate in Irish diddley music.''
Not only do you spout gibberish like that but you manage to do it in an offensive manner.! unbelievable. 'diddley music'
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Michael, what do you mean by 'unnecessary and therefore inappropriate'. Spoons are hideous, end of story. But tasteful and, most importantly, infrequently played, percussion instruments like bodhrán and bones can be quite a nice accompaniment to tunes played on certain instruments I find. Mary Bergin's first album springs to mind.
Guitar accompaniment is unnecessary, but I don't think it's inappropriate if it's played well. I would also consider guitar to be largely percussive, if it's strummed. Do you play only with other melody players, all the time?
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I never said Mary McNammara couldn't play Irish music, just that she can't play it like the pipes, fiddle and flute.
And you may like to note that one does not give offence, one takes offence.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
'I've heard "spoons" in reference to sleeping positions' quoth Mark Harmer.
The 'spoon' is actually a very basic shot in pornographic films because it reveals all the parts that Heineken usually failed to reach.
I wish I didn't know that.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Happy New Year llig!
Still spouting rubbish I see - "the music itself is so complexly percussive" is simply nonsense. I imagine you mean rhythmical and even then then it's not that complex, really.
OK you don't like percussion . Nobody does when it's played insensitively and for my taste spoons and clicking coins are horrible. But good bodhran playing is great to hear. Let's not chuck the baby out with the bath water when it comes to discussing the role of percussion in music making.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Hi Floss the Teathers, I never knew that! Amazing what you learn each day. And in turn I wish I didn't know what a "money shot" was - there I was naively assuming it was the trajectory of a coin being tossed into a hat...until I discovered Heineken!
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
...and back on the subject at hand (as it were), when I worked in radio drama, any live effects involving cutlery (not just spoons!) would require really quiet use of said implements, as the sound is known to "cut through" other sounds - ie, it's very easily audible because of the particular frequencies being those at which our ears are most sensitive (centered around 2kHz).
So aside from the musical argument, there's an acoustic one, which is about players being sensitive to the sounds around them and the way these particular things are more than usually audible.
I like the playing of the three young women in the Comhaltas clip but (like others above) there is something pretty insensitive about the way the people in the background feel it's OK to just blarge on in and add their stuff to the music. Still, if you perform in a public place (the street), then I guess you can't really complain.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
That's the thing, I would imagine for passers by it would be a great to see talented young musicians playing in the street. But I'm sure the musicians (the ones playing the real instruments) would soon get sick of it if every second person who's worked out how to bang two things together thinks it's ok just to pile in. It really is gross ignorance.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
llig, you're mixing up the meaning of percussive with rythmical. percussive relates to something that is operated by striking. i think what you are trying to say is the music has rythm in itself so that it does not necessarily need a bodhran, bones, etc. but i would disagree with the comment about repetition, it is not entirely repetition. tasteful bodhran players like jonny ringo and colm murphy play to the beat of the tune, subtley throwing in counterpoints. it is the counterpoint is playing around with the standard rythm of the tune. putting emhasis in different rythms can change the sound of tune entirely. to say bodhran playing is repetition sounds like it makes sense. but what people might take from that is that you mean a session without a bodhran sound the same as one with. i think you're nit picking a bit much.if you looked you could say that there is repetition in everything. if someone plays two different tunes in G you could say that they are just repeating the same notes only in a different order. irish music is in itself repetition of tunes. but does it really matter?
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Look i don't know what all the fuss is about "Spoon players" are welcome in sessions round my parts just so long as Uri Geller is sitting in on the session too.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by upmine3
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
"It really is gross ignorance."
Yes - it's as if the stinking masses felt some ownership of OUR music ... Lets get it out of the street and into the concert hall where it belongs!
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by meself
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
"Is "over-the-top-foot stomping" a bit like overarm bowling?
I'd quite like to see this in a session.
- Chris"
Umm, well actually, you wouldn't. I had one two weeks ago at my session. A young Mexican kid who was sh*te-faced drunk and stomping so loud I could hardly hear anything else. Fortunately our hammered dulcimer player got rid of him inside of about 30 seconds. LOL
Hmmm... hammered dulcimer is percussion, right?
Bodhran and spoons players are certainly welcome at my session, Just as long as they don't feel the need to play with EVERY tune or song.
Not every ITM tune should have percussion. But some tunes are just plain better with it. I have to admit though, I prefer the spoons in small quantities. They're great for intros or the final rousing 16 bars of a hearty set of jigs or reels. Just not ALL the way through the set.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
They have quite good comedy value on silly tunes too
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by snowyowl
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Not that rythmically complex? I suppose that would be why so many people spend so much time trying to master and understand diddley music. And why so many people who are otherwise excellent musicians are only able to render a pale imitation.
Oh well... at least you guys make for an entertaining read.
# Posted on January 22nd 2009 by Tirno
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I don't really mind a good spoon player as long as he or she is playing in right key, but I have to confess I'm a tad bit jealous of them, because having just played a very hard tune that took me ages to learn, the spoon player is the one person in a session that most tourists wants to have a chat with eg: "How do you hold the spoons and can my wife have a go" "Can you guys play something fast for my wife" and then the final insult is when the tourist is leaving and he directs his appreciation to the spoon player "How often do you play here and thanks for the wonderful music" Then again let us not forget the dancer or dancers. You know the ones, just like the girl in Bogman's utube link. They take over the only vacant patch of ground right in front of my chair and to everybody's delight (except the musicians) they thrill the crowd with their lack of timing and expertise and end up falling over the musicians. Oh..the joys of playing Traditional music..now where is that guy with the coin and the glass........
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
ITM is incredibly rich and complex rhythmically... when played right. Scottish Traditional music also. That is why playing with a good percussionist is such fun, they respond to every twist and turn, return and extemporise upon the rhythms within each tune . Each tune is also unique in these contours. IMO This is also why playing with bad percussionists/rhythm players is so dire, because they stomp all over the subtleties with their one size fits all approach. So I can certainly sympathise with the sentiment ...Arrgghhh!
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
No, I'm not mixing up the meanings of percussive with rhythmic at all.
The rhythmic elements of the music are of course vital. The specific placings of notes as accents, a little before the beat for that apprehensive feeling, a little after for that hold your breath thing, bang on for the drive ... and all in just a couple of bars.
Percussive and rhythmic are linked, of course. But in its physical nature, the music is percussive. That's how you play it. Think of how you tap the holes on your flute and pipes, Think of how you strike certain notes with just your breath. Think of how you flick or tap a string. Think of how you apply that tiny extra pressure to crunch some notes with your bow
Think of the subtleties of little taps and flicks, and the delicacy of striking the muisc with nothing more than your breath.
And then think of the obliteration of all that music by meaningless thwacks and ear splitting clacks.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Your spoons player could take up the bodhran or get a banjo with a fuzz tone!
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by zippydw
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
tell me "percussive" is not a relevant word to describe this terrific music.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X-cmK0WXPAw&NR=1
And does anyone really think it could be enhanced by some thwacking and clacking?
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
ah, but is it not up to the player to make it percussive? ive heard lots of players who simply play straight down the line mechanical music. so really would it not be truer to say that the percussive element is more subjective rather than it actually being in the music?
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I agree with you Llig. Spoons are for soups and desserts, period.
You could certainly say there 's a percussive element to the use of ornamentation on the flute, whistle, or pipes with all those cuts, taps, etc. A cran is certainly percussive as well as rhythmic.
Put another way: your run of the mill bad spoons player is as useless as t1ts on a bull, to borrow one from Tansey.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
fiddleruairi: It's in the music. Not the dots on the printed page, but the living aural tradition as performed by its best living exponents.
If a player is not conveying that, than they are a not playing with correct style.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Of course it's up to the tune player to make it percussive. That's a no brainer.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
tell me "percussive" is not a relevant word to describe this terrific music.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=X-cmK0WXPAw&NR=1
And does anyone really think it could be enhanced by some thwacking and clacking?
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
I do. A bodhran MIGHT stop Mairtin stomping his foot to provide the missing thwacking and clacking.
Given the choice between a bodhran and a melody player stomping their foot, I vote for the bodhran.
But not by the lady on the clip which started the thread. At least the spoons player had a rhythm, whether you like it or not.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
That's a nice music video Llig. Not sure about the rhythm guitar (a percussion instrument) in the second tune though. I don't think it belonged there really. Nice music though. Hee hee . . .
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by McDermott
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Aaaaah now I get it!
Fiddlers who hit their fiddles, flutists who hit their flutes and so on play percussively in this most percussive of music genres.
Gosh, it's no wonder that other forms of music can't hold a candle to this rhythmically wonderful and percussively complex art form.
Can I go to bed now?
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
>The 'spoon' is actually a very basic shot in pornographic films >because it reveals all the parts that Heineken usually failed >to reach.
We've never had this style of spoons down at the OM, but there is always hope. Although I can imagine it would be rather intrusive.
The consensus here appears to be that the racket of spoons kills the massed ranks of fiddles & accordeons. I'm rather afraid that Mrs Pitchfork has been badly short changed.
- chris
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I look at this differently.
The reason the spoons sound distracting is because we're not used to hearing them on a regular basis. If more people learned to play them and brought them to sessions, we'd all get more used to them and we'd be able to appreciate their more subtle aspects.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Jmbu
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
''percussion instruments are unnecessary and therefore 'inappropriate in Irish diddley music.''''
Only in your opinion Michael. Only in your opinion. Which is simply that...an opinion, not gospel.
98% of the time your insights into this music are dead on...but this is not one of those times. And as far as the bodhran having no place in ITM? Simply not true. I refer you to a series of 3 scholarly articles that appeared during the 07/08 year in Comhaltas' magazine which outlined how the drum HAS in fact had a long (albeit somewhat covert) relationship with ITM...in the hundreds of years in fact.
There are many excellent recording without bodhrans. There are many with. There are many BAD recordings of ITM without bodhrans, and some with. And the same goes for other instruments that are in the accompaniment category.
It's a matter of taste as Kennedy alluded to, and too often, I agree with her, taste is lacking...
Kennedy: I appreciate your take on the bones...indeed I have a pair that are lovely but simply too loud to the point that they are intursive...so I stopped using them...Steve Brown's pair aren't like that...but even then a player is best to use them sparingly and not just simply click clack away through the whole of a tune....the idea is to do it only for a few phrases here and there.
You know, about two years ago I met a piper/player [I won't say who since it would be name dropping] who hails from your neck of the woods -- Scotland...well known. Makes a variety of pipes, & he was over in Nova Scotia for a festival [Boxwood]. He heard me playing bodhran with some people and actually came over and asked if we could have a few tunes together....which we did for 15 minutes or so. He loved my playing. Now I didn't ask him, it was the reverse. We had a great time and he was quite complimentary and loved the style/sound of the drum [an O'kane] with his border pipes.
...what can I say? He is a great player and maker and he appreciates bodhran. You don't. So what?
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
sorry, this last bit below is addressed to MG, not Kennedy.
"You know, about two years ago I met a piper/player [I won't say who since it would be name dropping] who hails from your neck of the woods -- Scotland...well known. Makes a variety of pipes, & he was over in Nova Scotia for a festival [Boxwood]. He heard me playing bodhran with some people and actually came over and asked if we could have a few tunes together....which we did for 15 minutes or so. He loved my playing. Now I didn't ask him, it was the reverse. We had a great time and he was quite complimentary and loved the style/sound of the drum [an O'kane] with his border pipes
...what can I say? He is a great player and maker and he appreciates bodhran. You don't. So what?
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Great clip Llig, but that was a harsh cut-off, I was grooving and working.
We've been down this path a million times, but here goes again.
Ya got eejits. Eejits play all kinds of instruments. Percussion and accompanying instruments attract more eejits than melody instruments, probably because of some (mistaken) perception of how 'easy' they are to play. They're also more dangerous, sound-wise. You can diddle quietly with a flute or fiddle...but then again, a shrieky noodling whistle or box is also quite lethal.
So again, as usual, the problem is not instruments, it's eejits.
Or, as someone said on here one of the previous times I spouted this from my soapbox, "Instruments don't kill sessions, eejits with instruments kill sessions."
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Bones tastefully played.
Cf:
"Gol Na Mban San Ar"
by Sean O'Riada
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
I don't dislike the bodhran per say. In good recordings it can be very effective. My two fav bodhran players are Christy Moor and Donal Lunny. I think my favourite bodhran recording is Donnal Lunny playing on a David Hammond record.
Recorded arranged music is a different thing to thwacking away against diddley tunes.
And I'm not interested in discussing bad players, we are all in agreement on that. I'm interested in discussing good percussion players, and the pointlessness of it. The pointlessness of merely tunelessy repeating what the tune is already doing.
And as for the mantra of the NRA. banning guns really does save lives. Of that there is no doubt.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Donal's playing is quite lovely and hugely subtle, I'll agree with you there. I'd bet it's also greatly informed by the fact he plays a melody instrument[s] and so he understands the music at an entirely different level than most bodhran players who do not play a melody instrument. He leaves players "room" and it shows.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Yep, "room" is the key to it. I've never ever had a percussion player of any sort give me enough room. I find it claustrophobic.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
And too I think "room" also means a good bodhran player knows when to quit! silence is often golden..
But also I think there's a kind of *sonic fatigue* that sets in from too much thwacking and clacking by us percussionists.
Less can so often be more when it comes to bodhran.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
You are correct Llig. Listening to Clare FM Kitchen Session now. I don't think I've ever heard a single piece of percussion on this show, and it sounds just lovely.
'Room' is the key word. Constant accompaniment is claustrophobic, I agree.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
There are also some banjos (a melody instrument) that can have a very percussive sound, especially in the smaller ensembles.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Christy Moore on a bodhran?
Tee hee.
# Posted on January 23rd 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
SWFL Fiddler,
if you're listening to the second show, at 72' 45'' a set of 2 jigs starts (Queen Of The Fair + The Carraroe) with a backing of something that sounds like bones to my ears. But it's a much less piercing sound than that of the spoons in the clip linked by Bogman.
# Posted on January 24th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
btw, that set of reels at the end is a real cracker!
# Posted on January 24th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Arrgghhh...the spoons must stop
Aha! Thanks Ramiro, yes, I'm giving it a listen now. I've fallen into a Saturday morning ritual of listening to the show.
We have a Kitchen Session percussion sighting! (hearing?)
Talk about room, the lads and lasses didn't give Paula much 'room' to ruminate as she usually does, eh? Not that I don't enjoy hearing her dulcet tones, mind you, but it's nice to hear them keep cracking away it at.
# Posted on January 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler