I was talking on the phone with a lady who runs the website: Harp and Dragon, and I was talking to her about the Pakistani pipes she sells. I wanted to know about the quaility of her product and what she thinks about the very low opinion the Pakistanie pipes have. I was told that the quaility of the product has gone up greatly over the past two years, and that the reason for most of the negitivity was the people who buy them don't know how to play them and they blame the pipes and not themselfs.
Has anyone purchased a set of Pakistanie pipes in the past two years, or this past year and can give a review on them? The other reviews on this site seem to be from 2004-2006, and the lady told me the workmenship has greatly improved the past year. thanks, thangbrand
I have had the dubious experience of playing a Pakistani set within the past two years -- I wasn't impressed. I've not seen any evidence that the quality of the workmanship has gone up. If it has, that's brilliant -- means affordable and playable pipes -- but if it is too good to be true, it probably is. I haven't seen any evidence of it. Has anyone?
I don't know but there was an interesting discussion of C&F flute forum a while back as to constant negativity regarding instruments that are made in the far east and the fact that people continually referred to them as 'Pakistani' as a derogatory term. Didn't some chap in the British royals get in trouble recently for referring to his Paki chums??
I recall a long thread here not so long ago here re Plastic Paddies which I figured kinda harmless but got lots of peoples tails up! Whatever about that, the constant derogatory labelling of all these type of instruments as Paki etc., is most revealing and surely closer to racism. It seems to be OK to slag off the 'foreigners' but not poke fun at ourselves!!
'Pakistani' as an addition to 'pipes' (or flutes) has become derogatory because uilleann pipes made in the region are of abominable quality. Not because they are made by Pakistani.
Some pipes by non-pakistani makers are abominations as well by the way but elude a handy common name.
Nothing racist about it.
Interesting enough Jim Stone, the man objecting most to the use of 'Pakistani' as a derogatory term during the C&F discussion, recently put forward that all whistles made in India should be avoided, 'for health reasons'. A case of calling the kettle black?
OK, explain to me : instruments made in a particular place are of consistent poor workmanship to the extend the name of the place becomes a by-word for sub-standard instruments.
A 100 year old Willie Rowsome set will be useless to someone who doesn;t play the pipes. So willl a cheap, badly made set of pipes from wherever. The difference , of course, is the Rowsome set Can be played (by a piper), and often the cheap, badly-made set simply Cannot be played.
It should not. But facts are facts. If there are talented reputable instrument-makers in Pakistan, they should be heard from, and should defend themselves and repair "their" reputation.
As communities living together, we inevitably WILL be grouped with those we tolerate amongst us by a lot of people. It is a twisted kind of logic, and rather sad, IMHO.
Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas?
Heavy sigh...
The simple answer is that if she has any scruples she would not sell pipes from Pakistan.They are not of good enough quality to give the buyer what they want. With pipes you get what you pay for. They are difficult enough to play without trying to play a fundimentaly unplayable instrument.
About 12 odd years ago I spent nearly £1000 on a poor half set and despite getting up to gigging speed with them I could never get them reeded well enough to be reasonably in tune. My highland, border and smallpipes are from top makers so I just couldn'ythandle playing out of tune. It set me back for years and I stopped playing them for years until I bought a decent half set last year. If I had bought Pakistani pipes I would have been lucky to get anywhere with them.
If Pakistani makers want to be a player in the market then they need to be honest. There was a discussion previously where a former member (jig) tried to defend Highland pipes from Pakistan - he was completely out of order. Pakistan makers put (for examaple) MacLeod tartan bag covers on their pipes and then call them MacLeod pipes. Highly misleading to a naive buyer. If a company from Pakistan were to employ a decent craftsman, gave the pipes a genuine unashamed name and asked reputable pipers to try them and review them then they would gain some respect in the market.
At the moment, what is happening with both Highland and Uilleann pipes is that people who cannot afford pipes but desperately want to play them buy cheap pipes unaware they are throwing not just their money down the drain but also their enthusiasm for the instrument. Pipes are not like guitar where you can spend a couple of hundred and have something good enough to learn on. Even a decent set can sound dire to begin with.
I believe some opinions held that "paki" was offensive in the mouth of one of the heirs to the British throne, but that "Pakistani" would merely be descriptive. On the other hand, you have to be amazed what the papers will write about to avoid having to cover real news...
Paki is definitely offensive if someone from outside that ethnic group or nationality uses it. It should be remembered that sometimes people will put up with great offense in attempts to be included within a group - for instance the late Sammy Davis Junior put up with a lot of racist banter to be included in the so-called 'Rat Pack'.
30 years ago the use of the description 'Mickey Mouse' was often applied to cheap and unreliable products, because the Disney Corps charged such a high license fee that things made with their logo had to be produced very cheaply to be profitable.
It seems that 'Pakistani', not as a racist slur but just as a comment on the quality of goods, continues this tradition.
From the Mid-East mfg, website,
"We are very particular from whom we import products. Our exclusive supplier in Pakistan is our sister company, Mid-East Mfg, Sialkot, Pakistan. "
Google Harp and Dragon, you'll find that they do advertise pipes from this company.
p.s. So, in this case, I am assuming that when someone is using the terms "Pakistani pipes" they are indeed referring to a geographical location where said pipes were manufactured.
Anyone who has played flutes from Pakistan can see that they are very seriously sub-par, and the consensus seems to be that their pipes are rubbish too. They are often wasting precious hardwood without producing anything of worth, and the end product is only suitable for use as biomass fuel. But there’s also the issue of whether we should ever buy instruments, or anything else, from a state with such appalling human rights. Some Chinese violins are, if the experts are to be believed, of an excellent standard. But, as civilized human beings, shouldn’t we take into account that China and is a dictatorship that harvests organs from prisoners for commercial sale, that conducts forced abortions and forced sterilizations on Tibetan women, and that has concentration camps in Tibet. Look here: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4110415/Dispatches__Repressive_Regimes_Undercover_in_Tibet_2008_03_31_
And, likewise, should we not simply rule out Pakistani instruments simply because there is a high likelihood they are made by child slaves?
Music expresses the highest nature of humanity. Surely no good person could enjoy playing an instrument they knew to be the result of suffering (no matter what it’s quality). Who would buy cheap violins from the Nazis, knowing how their money was being spent?
To answer the above question, "Pakistani pipes" refers to pipes made in Pakistan, not pipes generally of poor workmanship. You can of course buy UK/American/Irish/European instruments of subpar quality but there are also excellent makers in these countries. If there are any highly skilled and conscientious Pakistani pipemakers, they certainly haven't made themselves known.
cag......"When you use the full word Pakistani any racism flies undercover, anyone who thinks or claims it is never there is being foolish.
Does anyone know exactly where they are made..?"
Ehhh - Where do you think they're from?
Sometimes PC is so extreme that it almost smacks of racism.
What about using the full word 'Irish' or 'Scottish' or dare I say it, 'Indian'?
A number of workshops, apparently all in Sialkot, turn out pipes and flutes. All of abominable quality and all under flying under different company names (basically anonymously) some of which are trying to be misleading (Geoffrey pipes trying to feed of Geoff Wooff's reputation for example).
No single maker from Pakistan has stepped out of anonymity with his product, or out of the depths of sub-par manufacture,. Until that happens 'Pakistani made' is fairly understood as synonymous with poor quality.
Exactly kifarboy, that was my point about GHB from Pakistan. The name MacLeod suggests they are, or are related to the reputable Scottish maker. They hide behind a name and fool people on ebay.
By the way, when those in the music education field come across those type of instruments (produced and sold cheaply, usually at a "big box" store of some kind), they are referred to as ISO's... Instrument Shaped Objects.
uilleann pipes
uilleann pipes
I was talking on the phone with a lady who runs the website: Harp and Dragon, and I was talking to her about the Pakistani pipes she sells. I wanted to know about the quaility of her product and what she thinks about the very low opinion the Pakistanie pipes have. I was told that the quaility of the product has gone up greatly over the past two years, and that the reason for most of the negitivity was the people who buy them don't know how to play them and they blame the pipes and not themselfs.
Has anyone purchased a set of Pakistanie pipes in the past two years, or this past year and can give a review on them? The other reviews on this site seem to be from 2004-2006, and the lady told me the workmenship has greatly improved the past year. thanks, thangbrand
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by thangbrand
Re: uilleann pipes
I have had the dubious experience of playing a Pakistani set within the past two years -- I wasn't impressed. I've not seen any evidence that the quality of the workmanship has gone up. If it has, that's brilliant -- means affordable and playable pipes -- but if it is too good to be true, it probably is. I haven't seen any evidence of it. Has anyone?
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: uilleann pipes
Who'd trust a lady who runs a website called harp and dragon?
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by ...
Re: uilleann pipes
I don't know but there was an interesting discussion of C&F flute forum a while back as to constant negativity regarding instruments that are made in the far east and the fact that people continually referred to them as 'Pakistani' as a derogatory term. Didn't some chap in the British royals get in trouble recently for referring to his Paki chums??
I recall a long thread here not so long ago here re Plastic Paddies which I figured kinda harmless but got lots of peoples tails up! Whatever about that, the constant derogatory labelling of all these type of instruments as Paki etc., is most revealing and surely closer to racism. It seems to be OK to slag off the 'foreigners' but not poke fun at ourselves!!
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: uilleann pipes
'Pakistani' as an addition to 'pipes' (or flutes) has become derogatory because uilleann pipes made in the region are of abominable quality. Not because they are made by Pakistani.
Some pipes by non-pakistani makers are abominations as well by the way but elude a handy common name.
Nothing racist about it.
Interesting enough Jim Stone, the man objecting most to the use of 'Pakistani' as a derogatory term during the C&F discussion, recently put forward that all whistles made in India should be avoided, 'for health reasons'. A case of calling the kettle black?
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: uilleann pipes
nothing racist about it all FFF.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by gedpipes
Re: uilleann pipes
OK, explain to me : instruments made in a particular place are of consistent poor workmanship to the extend the name of the place becomes a by-word for sub-standard instruments.
Where does this take a turn towards racism?
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: uilleann pipes
A 100 year old Willie Rowsome set will be useless to someone who doesn;t play the pipes. So willl a cheap, badly made set of pipes from wherever. The difference , of course, is the Rowsome set Can be played (by a piper), and often the cheap, badly-made set simply Cannot be played.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: uilleann pipes
Where does this take a turn towards racism?
It should not. But facts are facts. If there are talented reputable instrument-makers in Pakistan, they should be heard from, and should defend themselves and repair "their" reputation.
As communities living together, we inevitably WILL be grouped with those we tolerate amongst us by a lot of people. It is a twisted kind of logic, and rather sad, IMHO.
Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas?
Heavy sigh...
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Piece
Re: uilleann pipes
The simple answer is that if she has any scruples she would not sell pipes from Pakistan.They are not of good enough quality to give the buyer what they want. With pipes you get what you pay for. They are difficult enough to play without trying to play a fundimentaly unplayable instrument.
About 12 odd years ago I spent nearly £1000 on a poor half set and despite getting up to gigging speed with them I could never get them reeded well enough to be reasonably in tune. My highland, border and smallpipes are from top makers so I just couldn'ythandle playing out of tune. It set me back for years and I stopped playing them for years until I bought a decent half set last year. If I had bought Pakistani pipes I would have been lucky to get anywhere with them.
If Pakistani makers want to be a player in the market then they need to be honest. There was a discussion previously where a former member (jig) tried to defend Highland pipes from Pakistan - he was completely out of order. Pakistan makers put (for examaple) MacLeod tartan bag covers on their pipes and then call them MacLeod pipes. Highly misleading to a naive buyer. If a company from Pakistan were to employ a decent craftsman, gave the pipes a genuine unashamed name and asked reputable pipers to try them and review them then they would gain some respect in the market.
At the moment, what is happening with both Highland and Uilleann pipes is that people who cannot afford pipes but desperately want to play them buy cheap pipes unaware they are throwing not just their money down the drain but also their enthusiasm for the instrument. Pipes are not like guitar where you can spend a couple of hundred and have something good enough to learn on. Even a decent set can sound dire to begin with.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by bogman
Re: uilleann pipes
http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34434
http://uilleannforum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: uilleann pipes
I believe some opinions held that "paki" was offensive in the mouth of one of the heirs to the British throne, but that "Pakistani" would merely be descriptive. On the other hand, you have to be amazed what the papers will write about to avoid having to cover real news...
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: uilleann pipes
Paki is definitely offensive if someone from outside that ethnic group or nationality uses it. It should be remembered that sometimes people will put up with great offense in attempts to be included within a group - for instance the late Sammy Davis Junior put up with a lot of racist banter to be included in the so-called 'Rat Pack'.
30 years ago the use of the description 'Mickey Mouse' was often applied to cheap and unreliable products, because the Disney Corps charged such a high license fee that things made with their logo had to be produced very cheaply to be profitable.
It seems that 'Pakistani', not as a racist slur but just as a comment on the quality of goods, continues this tradition.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: uilleann pipes
When you use the full word Pakistani any racism flies undercover, anyone who thinks or claims it is never there is being foolish.
Does anyone know exactly where they are made..?
# Posted on January 20th 2009 by cag
Re: uilleann pipes
From the Mid-East mfg, website,
"We are very particular from whom we import products. Our exclusive supplier in Pakistan is our sister company, Mid-East Mfg, Sialkot, Pakistan. "
Google Harp and Dragon, you'll find that they do advertise pipes from this company.
# Posted on January 20th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: uilleann pipes
p.s. So, in this case, I am assuming that when someone is using the terms "Pakistani pipes" they are indeed referring to a geographical location where said pipes were manufactured.
# Posted on January 20th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: uilleann pipes
Anyone who has played flutes from Pakistan can see that they are very seriously sub-par, and the consensus seems to be that their pipes are rubbish too. They are often wasting precious hardwood without producing anything of worth, and the end product is only suitable for use as biomass fuel. But there’s also the issue of whether we should ever buy instruments, or anything else, from a state with such appalling human rights. Some Chinese violins are, if the experts are to be believed, of an excellent standard. But, as civilized human beings, shouldn’t we take into account that China and is a dictatorship that harvests organs from prisoners for commercial sale, that conducts forced abortions and forced sterilizations on Tibetan women, and that has concentration camps in Tibet. Look here: http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4110415/Dispatches__Repressive_Regimes_Undercover_in_Tibet_2008_03_31_
And, likewise, should we not simply rule out Pakistani instruments simply because there is a high likelihood they are made by child slaves?
Music expresses the highest nature of humanity. Surely no good person could enjoy playing an instrument they knew to be the result of suffering (no matter what it’s quality). Who would buy cheap violins from the Nazis, knowing how their money was being spent?
# Posted on January 20th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: uilleann pipes
Good post, whistleblower.
To answer the above question, "Pakistani pipes" refers to pipes made in Pakistan, not pipes generally of poor workmanship. You can of course buy UK/American/Irish/European instruments of subpar quality but there are also excellent makers in these countries. If there are any highly skilled and conscientious Pakistani pipemakers, they certainly haven't made themselves known.
# Posted on January 20th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: uilleann pipes
"If there are any highly skilled and conscientious Pakistani pipemakers, they certainly haven't made themselves known."
And would maybe be better of not doing so...
# Posted on January 20th 2009 by David50
Re: uilleann pipes
cag......"When you use the full word Pakistani any racism flies undercover, anyone who thinks or claims it is never there is being foolish.
Does anyone know exactly where they are made..?"
Ehhh - Where do you think they're from?
Sometimes PC is so extreme that it almost smacks of racism.
What about using the full word 'Irish' or 'Scottish' or dare I say it, 'Indian'?
# Posted on January 20th 2009 by bogman
Re: uilleann pipes
A number of workshops, apparently all in Sialkot, turn out pipes and flutes. All of abominable quality and all under flying under different company names (basically anonymously) some of which are trying to be misleading (Geoffrey pipes trying to feed of Geoff Wooff's reputation for example).
No single maker from Pakistan has stepped out of anonymity with his product, or out of the depths of sub-par manufacture,. Until that happens 'Pakistani made' is fairly understood as synonymous with poor quality.
# Posted on January 20th 2009 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: uilleann pipes
Exactly kifarboy, that was my point about GHB from Pakistan. The name MacLeod suggests they are, or are related to the reputable Scottish maker. They hide behind a name and fool people on ebay.
# Posted on January 20th 2009 by bogman
Re: uilleann pipes
By the way, when those in the music education field come across those type of instruments (produced and sold cheaply, usually at a "big box" store of some kind), they are referred to as ISO's... Instrument Shaped Objects.
# Posted on January 20th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: uilleann pipes
I wrote up a fairly detailed review of "Geoffrey" brand Pakistani Uilleann bagpipes, purchased on eBay, that you might be interested in reading:
http://celtinstmakers.net/?p=48
Please consider purchase from a reputable maker.
# Posted on January 25th 2009 by hpinson
Re: uilleann pipes
"But there’s also the issue of whether we should ever buy instruments, or anything else, from a state with such appalling human rights"
Does this apply to buying from states who abuse human rights in places such as er Guantanamo? Iraq? Afghanistan? just asking
Ged
# Posted on January 26th 2009 by gedpipes