How on earth do Sean Keane & Kevin Burke do it?? How to they get that clean but dirty sound. I'm not talking about rolls, trills, triplets ect... but their bow move so fast yet have such an accurate and beautifull sound.
(In other words, please can i have some tips with my bowing)
A good personal teacher and lots and lots of practice and listening to yourself.
Good (but not necessarily expensive) hardware is also very useful to have. There are three components to getting a good tone out of a fiddle - the fiddle and strings itself, the bow, and the nut at the end of the bow.
The good personal teacher could be someone in the session who takes ten minutes off at the end of the session to give a beginner a few tips and instruction. I've seen that happen a few times.
Take every opportunity to watch good players closely, both live and on video - see how relaxed and fluid their bowing hand, wrist and arm are. That's what you've got to aim for.
In the absence of a personal teacher it's very well worth looking at Todd Ehle's fiddle teaching videos on YouTube. There are over 50 of them and they take the player right from the very beginning (how to hold the instrument etc) right up to a near-professional standard. Imo these videos are among the best around.
nice lazyhound, but who are you calling a nut? The Todd Ehle videos are good - and Kevin Burke has a couple of DVD tutorials. You could also say that Kevin Burke's sound comes from moving his bow fast and accurately - so get practicing!
I'd also say "experimentation". You've asked us "how do they?" but they likely didn't - they tried out different bow holds, different levels of pressure, different angles of attack, different patterns and forms, different amounts of rosin, etc. Give it all shot! Somewhere along the line you'll figure out a set-up that gives you that sound you want; and it may be a totally different sound from the one you set out to find.
Thank You so much. I've been playing since I was 4, but I still get irritaded about my sound, which is fine for classical music, but it's never the sound I'm looking for in traditional music. Any more tips are much appreciated.
Thanks again
Playing since the age of 4?? You should include that in your bio, so people know that you're not a newbie to the instrument. You have probably heard these before, but:
Slur when crossing strings (often)
Use open strings (mostly)
The less vibrato, the better
If you are going right back to that note, just leave your finger down
And nobody told me this exactly, but it seems right to me: Think of double-stops as a second instrument that sometimes joins in for emphasis, don't just saw away on two strings whenever you can.
Will knows what he is talking about, and that level of analytical detail might work best for a trained violinist. Me, I just watch and listen to a lot of good fiddlers, and try to imitate them as best I can.
"Listen to a player whose pulse and lift you aspire to. Listen till that sound fills and resonates in every molecule. Listen till you can hear the slurs and single bows. Then play." (will cpt, the very end of the post linked to above)
The following quotation from the Preface to Volume III of The Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music is, I believe, relevant to this discussion. The text within square brackets is my interpretation.
"Some features of the 'traditional style' have been referred to in the earlier preface [the preface to vol I]. Other features of it are the compromised semitones between Mi and Fa, Ti and Do [the quarter tones or 'trick' notes], together with the intricate syncopated bowings and the various graces and embellishments [ornaments]. A high pitch or rough robust tone, particularly in the old airs, is not in consonance with the traditional style on the Violin."
I don't play the fiddle but I do appreciate a good player. However it is generally the tune that I am listening to, and if the fiddle player plays that particular tune well - that's a bonus. Question arises, how would a fiddle player like this fit into this debate?
Er, um, well, needless to say Monsieur Carignan was quite amazing, but I do believe you may get a pint spilled on you if you try that sort of stuff in a session.
Some of the best advice I got was to watch the bows of the fiddle players you admire, as well as listen. See what part of the bow they use, when they go up versus down, when they use figure-8 cross-bowing. Use your ear: when you get to play with fiddlers whose sound you admire, try to match their sound almost exactly: blend.
I come from years and years of classical training. I was have an abysmal time crossing back and forth between the two styles. So for a good 6 months, I abandoned all classical playing and focused on fiddle music, a luxury I didn't have while in school. I think I'm finally become more satisfied with how I sound as a fiddler, so I've resumed playing classically, and segueing between the two styles is not so difficult now.
That Irish Fiddle Sound
That Irish Fiddle Sound
How on earth do Sean Keane & Kevin Burke do it?? How to they get that clean but dirty sound. I'm not talking about rolls, trills, triplets ect... but their bow move so fast yet have such an accurate and beautifull sound.
(In other words, please can i have some tips with my bowing)
Thank You
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by WobblingFiddle
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
A good personal teacher and lots and lots of practice and listening to yourself.
Good (but not necessarily expensive) hardware is also very useful to have. There are three components to getting a good tone out of a fiddle - the fiddle and strings itself, the bow, and the nut at the end of the bow.
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
The good personal teacher could be someone in the session who takes ten minutes off at the end of the session to give a beginner a few tips and instruction. I've seen that happen a few times.
Take every opportunity to watch good players closely, both live and on video - see how relaxed and fluid their bowing hand, wrist and arm are. That's what you've got to aim for.
In the absence of a personal teacher it's very well worth looking at Todd Ehle's fiddle teaching videos on YouTube. There are over 50 of them and they take the player right from the very beginning (how to hold the instrument etc) right up to a near-professional standard. Imo these videos are among the best around.
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Well, if you stand at a certain crossroads at midnight...
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by Robert Ryan
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
nice lazyhound, but who are you calling a nut? The Todd Ehle videos are good - and Kevin Burke has a couple of DVD tutorials. You could also say that Kevin Burke's sound comes from moving his bow fast and accurately - so get practicing!
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by airport
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Thank you very much, I'll have a look at the vids.
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by WobblingFiddle
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Good tips so far (well, except for the crossroads thing). I would add, "Be patient, and keep at it."
It takes years, to get really really good at anything. Those guys didn't learn to play like that overnight.
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
I'd also say "experimentation". You've asked us "how do they?" but they likely didn't - they tried out different bow holds, different levels of pressure, different angles of attack, different patterns and forms, different amounts of rosin, etc. Give it all shot! Somewhere along the line you'll figure out a set-up that gives you that sound you want; and it may be a totally different sound from the one you set out to find.
--DtM
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by Dan the Man
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Thank You so much. I've been playing since I was 4, but I still get irritaded about my sound, which is fine for classical music, but it's never the sound I'm looking for in traditional music. Any more tips are much appreciated.
Thanks again
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by WobblingFiddle
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Playing since the age of 4?? You should include that in your bio, so people know that you're not a newbie to the instrument. You have probably heard these before, but:
Slur when crossing strings (often)
Use open strings (mostly)
The less vibrato, the better
If you are going right back to that note, just leave your finger down
And nobody told me this exactly, but it seems right to me: Think of double-stops as a second instrument that sometimes joins in for emphasis, don't just saw away on two strings whenever you can.
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Wobbling, I'm not a fiddler. Here are some hints from someone who is;
Re: (Bowing) . . .
October 30th 2004 by Will CPT
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/4823/comments#comment101243
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Well, as a first day using the discussion board, I honestly could not be happier! Thank you all so much.
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by WobblingFiddle
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Will knows what he is talking about, and that level of analytical detail might work best for a trained violinist. Me, I just watch and listen to a lot of good fiddlers, and try to imitate them as best I can.
Monkey see, monkey do. Monkey hear, monkey play.
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
I think I'm the same: Monkey see, monkey do. Monkey hear, monkey play.
I think I try as hard as I can to sound like a beautiful clean big toned classical player, But I'm not very good at it so I sound like a fiddler.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
I'm sure you're beautiful and clean, Michael. Don't change the subject.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
"Monkey hear, monkey play." (mickray and llig)
"Listen to a player whose pulse and lift you aspire to. Listen till that sound fills and resonates in every molecule. Listen till you can hear the slurs and single bows. Then play." (will cpt, the very end of the post linked to above)
We seem to be in agreement.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
As ever Will
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Peace and tranquility have settled on the Mustard Board
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Donough
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
I had nothing to do with it, Donough!
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by feardearg
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Not so fast. I'm still waiting for a photo and scratch-n-sniff from llig, so we can judge for ourselves whether he is beautiful and clean.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
The following quotation from the Preface to Volume III of The Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music is, I believe, relevant to this discussion. The text within square brackets is my interpretation.
"Some features of the 'traditional style' have been referred to in the earlier preface [the preface to vol I]. Other features of it are the compromised semitones between Mi and Fa, Ti and Do [the quarter tones or 'trick' notes], together with the intricate syncopated bowings and the various graces and embellishments [ornaments]. A high pitch or rough robust tone, particularly in the old airs, is not in consonance with the traditional style on the Violin."
Note that last sentence.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
I don't play the fiddle but I do appreciate a good player. However it is generally the tune that I am listening to, and if the fiddle player plays that particular tune well - that's a bonus. Question arises, how would a fiddle player like this fit into this debate?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HzTDtHARW70
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Er, um, well, needless to say Monsieur Carignan was quite amazing, but I do believe you may get a pint spilled on you if you try that sort of stuff in a session.
...and now for something completely different...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF0b35jn-Ts
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
If you're wearing socks when watching that one - hang on to them!
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
"Monkey hear, monkey play" HA! You guys slay me. Spot on, as always.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
FTAOD, my post referred to the Carrignan http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HzTDtHARW70
There are one or two fiddle players in the Bristol area who could some sort of approximation to that, but they wouldn't dare (would they?)
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Some of the best advice I got was to watch the bows of the fiddle players you admire, as well as listen. See what part of the bow they use, when they go up versus down, when they use figure-8 cross-bowing. Use your ear: when you get to play with fiddlers whose sound you admire, try to match their sound almost exactly: blend.
I come from years and years of classical training. I was have an abysmal time crossing back and forth between the two styles. So for a good 6 months, I abandoned all classical playing and focused on fiddle music, a luxury I didn't have while in school. I think I'm finally become more satisfied with how I sound as a fiddler, so I've resumed playing classically, and segueing between the two styles is not so difficult now.
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by meredithrachael
Re: That Irish Fiddle Sound
Besides constant practice and a good ear, how about the innate quality of fiddle & bow. This fact was sadly overlooked.
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by hauke