Thank you for your response, kifarboy. But I don't think that you have perhaps quite understood the point that I was making. True, there are at least two tunes with "Chorus" in the title
I understand the point completely. The Chorus Jig appears under that name in several (US) collections, Ryan's Mammoth for example, and it's not a jig that's on offer.
A famous example from outside the Irish tradition is "Kemp's Jig", posted here as a hornpipe, which it really isn't, either. I think "jig" or "gigue" once had a more blurry meaning, for dancing in general. Like song and tune in the US.
"Jig" is a very old English name for dancing that involved jumping (e.g. "jigging up and down"). There was no implication that it would necessarily be in 6/8, 9/8 or 12/8 time, as is generally accepted today. Such old jigs were often in common time (4/4 or similar).
Similarly, 'rant', an energetic dance or its tune (chiefly a Scottish term), from C16 Dutch 'ranten', to rave, related to German 'ranzen', to gambol
(Source: Collins English Dictionary).
Kemp's Jig was a tune associated with William Kemp, a Morris dancer who danced from London to Norwich in Elizabethan times. In Morris dancing terms, a jig is a dance for a solo dancer, and doesn't have to be in a specific time signature.
Will Kemp was something of an Elizabethan musical superstar, but is more widely remembered as a member of the Lord Chamberlain's Men, Shakespeare's company from 1594.
He had a contract which guaranteed him a 'jigge' or 'gigue' at the end of each performance, in which he played fiddle, danced and did physical-theatre type stuff to the delight of the London crowds, who usually came after the dramatic performance for the hooley afterwards. For this pleasure they parted with a mere penny. Some of the tunes Kemp would have played made it into Playford's collection, and almost certainly some of these tunes are Irish in origin...
But the tune 'Kempe's Jigge' is associated with the London to Norwich danceathon he performed over nine days in 1600. It became known popularly as Kemp's Jig, and the tune was obvioulsy written in commemoration.
Of course, we're most familiar with the Hibernocentric definitions of tune types: 'Jig' means 6/8 (or 9/8 or 12/8), 'reel' means 2/2 ('cut' time) and 'hornpipe' means 4/4 with 'swing'.
But we need stray no further than Scotland to find tunes which, in Ireland, are considered hornpipes, played as, danced as and designated reels - The Flowers of Edinburgh being a classic example. Many English reels, on the other hand, are more like polkas in character, in Irish parlance (some even crop up as polkas in Ireland), whilst some English polkas would probably be regarded as 'barndances' in Ireland.
This is not to mention the 3/2 hornpipes in the English, Northumbrian and Border Scots traditions, 5/4 waltzes in Bavaria...
All the aforementioned are dance tunes, and their names derive from the dances they were composed (or adapted) to accompany. So the Foula reel is presumably a dance derived from, or related in some way to, other types of reel, but which happens to fit to a tune in 6/8 (or perhaps it fits equally well to tunes in 6/8 or 4/4 - I remember, from one of Tom Anderson's books, that there is also a tune in 4/4 used to accompany the dance).
One possible (though admittedly specious!) explanation is that someone who doesn't actually know (or care) about the difference between jigs, reels etc. (a landlord or somebody) may have got to name the odd tune, and that the title just stuck.
(I'm doing my best here, Mix )
More helpfully, perhaps, here is what 'The Fiddler's Companion' has to say about Da Foula Reel:-
FOULA REEL. AKA and see "Da Auld Foula Reel," "Da Shaalds O Foula," "The Aald Reel." Shetland, Jig. E Minor (sometimes G Major). Standard tuning. AABB. Hunter (1979) states the tune popularly used for country dances is known today as "Da Shaalds O Foula" or "Da Foula Shalds," but "The Foula Reel" is another tune altogether whose dance has been lost. Anderson & Georgeson (1970), however, assert there are many variations of both melody and dance (though most versions are in jig time, with only a few in reel time) that go by all four titles mentioned above. John Purser says the Foula Reel is still danced as a country dance in jig time. He thinks the tune had its origins on the Scottish mainland. Anderson & Georgeson (Da Mirrie Dancers), 1970; pg. 15. Barnes (English Country Dance Tunes, vol. 2), 2005; pg. 45. Hunter (Fiddle Music of Scotland), 1988; No. 288. Redwing Music RWMCD 5410, Abby Newton – “Castles, Kirks and Caves” (2001).
Traditionally in Scotland, the term "reel" referred to a lively dance tune, not to the meter of the tune. So there are many Scottish tunes in 6/8 that are called reels (particularly from the 18th century and before).
Da Shaalds o Foula is probably a more appropriate name for the tune also known as Da Foula Reel. As far as I know, Da Foula Reel is a dance for which Da Shaalds o Foula was used and so it probably took on the dance name.
Not to speak of a whole bunch of slow airs on this site that are put under the headings of anything but. That's the only bloody opinion you're getting from me. I have Doom Bar to drink don't you know.
Ah, Pipes - but a rant is not strictly a reel - although the time signature is the same (4/4). Reels have a lot more notes than rants.
The structure of a rant is similar to that of a a hornpipe, except (unlike hornpipes) is played with very little or no "swing".
Rants should be played with a very heavy emphasis on the first beat of the bar, and with a similar (although somewhat less) heavy emphasis on the third beat of the bar.
This emphasis is needed to fit in with the "rant step" - a feature of this particular dance (called a "rant") which originates from the NE of England and the border country.
I'll stop now (before anyone accuses me of ranting on about it!)
Deceptive Tune Titles?
Deceptive Tune Titles?
Da Foula Reel is a jig. Cumberland Reel is also a jig.
Zeak Waltz (recently submitted by me) turns out to be a hornpipe.
Q. Can anyone explain these anomalies?
Q. Can anyone quote any other examples?
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
The Chorus jig
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Thank you for your response, kifarboy. But I don't think that you have perhaps quite understood the point that I was making. True, there are at least two tunes with "Chorus" in the title
e.g.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/779
(a reel)
and
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5314
(a jig)
But the first tune isn't known as the "Chorus Jig". Neither is the second one known as as the "Chorus Reel"
(As far as I know!)
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
I understand the point completely. The Chorus Jig appears under that name in several (US) collections, Ryan's Mammoth for example, and it's not a jig that's on offer.
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
A famous example from outside the Irish tradition is "Kemp's Jig", posted here as a hornpipe, which it really isn't, either. I think "jig" or "gigue" once had a more blurry meaning, for dancing in general. Like song and tune in the US.
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Kemp's Jig:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7093
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
"Jig" is a very old English name for dancing that involved jumping (e.g. "jigging up and down"). There was no implication that it would necessarily be in 6/8, 9/8 or 12/8 time, as is generally accepted today. Such old jigs were often in common time (4/4 or similar).
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Similarly, 'rant', an energetic dance or its tune (chiefly a Scottish term), from C16 Dutch 'ranten', to rave, related to German 'ranzen', to gambol
(Source: Collins English Dictionary).
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Kemp's Jig was a tune associated with William Kemp, a Morris dancer who danced from London to Norwich in Elizabethan times. In Morris dancing terms, a jig is a dance for a solo dancer, and doesn't have to be in a specific time signature.
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by cathycook
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
kilfarboy - my apologies - I wasn't of aware of the US collections.
fidkid - good thought. Hadn't thought to mention that one.
lazyhound - yes - from the French - "gigue" (hence the use of the word "gig" used to mean an engagement for a band etc.)
P.K. The only tunes that I have seen with "rant" in the title are in 4/4 time.
None of what has been said so far explains "Foula Reel".
Of course, it's dance as well as a tune. I'm not familiar with the figures used in this dance, but does it include a figure-of-eight?
If so, this might explain the use of the word "reel" - even though the tune is in jig (6/8) time.
And what about "Zeak Waltz"?
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Will Kemp was something of an Elizabethan musical superstar, but is more widely remembered as a member of the Lord Chamberlain's Men, Shakespeare's company from 1594.
He had a contract which guaranteed him a 'jigge' or 'gigue' at the end of each performance, in which he played fiddle, danced and did physical-theatre type stuff to the delight of the London crowds, who usually came after the dramatic performance for the hooley afterwards. For this pleasure they parted with a mere penny. Some of the tunes Kemp would have played made it into Playford's collection, and almost certainly some of these tunes are Irish in origin...
But the tune 'Kempe's Jigge' is associated with the London to Norwich danceathon he performed over nine days in 1600. It became known popularly as Kemp's Jig, and the tune was obvioulsy written in commemoration.
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Of course, we're most familiar with the Hibernocentric definitions of tune types: 'Jig' means 6/8 (or 9/8 or 12/8), 'reel' means 2/2 ('cut' time) and 'hornpipe' means 4/4 with 'swing'.
But we need stray no further than Scotland to find tunes which, in Ireland, are considered hornpipes, played as, danced as and designated reels - The Flowers of Edinburgh being a classic example. Many English reels, on the other hand, are more like polkas in character, in Irish parlance (some even crop up as polkas in Ireland), whilst some English polkas would probably be regarded as 'barndances' in Ireland.
This is not to mention the 3/2 hornpipes in the English, Northumbrian and Border Scots traditions, 5/4 waltzes in Bavaria...
All the aforementioned are dance tunes, and their names derive from the dances they were composed (or adapted) to accompany. So the Foula reel is presumably a dance derived from, or related in some way to, other types of reel, but which happens to fit to a tune in 6/8 (or perhaps it fits equally well to tunes in 6/8 or 4/4 - I remember, from one of Tom Anderson's books, that there is also a tune in 4/4 used to accompany the dance).
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Ragaman - with reference to that 4/4 tune for the Foula Reel, do you have the abc of it, by any chance?
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
One possible (though admittedly specious!) explanation is that someone who doesn't actually know (or care) about the difference between jigs, reels etc. (a landlord or somebody) may have got to name the odd tune, and that the title just stuck.
)
(I'm doing my best here, Mix
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
More helpfully, perhaps, here is what 'The Fiddler's Companion' has to say about Da Foula Reel:-
FOULA REEL. AKA and see "Da Auld Foula Reel," "Da Shaalds O Foula," "The Aald Reel." Shetland, Jig. E Minor (sometimes G Major). Standard tuning. AABB. Hunter (1979) states the tune popularly used for country dances is known today as "Da Shaalds O Foula" or "Da Foula Shalds," but "The Foula Reel" is another tune altogether whose dance has been lost. Anderson & Georgeson (1970), however, assert there are many variations of both melody and dance (though most versions are in jig time, with only a few in reel time) that go by all four titles mentioned above. John Purser says the Foula Reel is still danced as a country dance in jig time. He thinks the tune had its origins on the Scottish mainland. Anderson & Georgeson (Da Mirrie Dancers), 1970; pg. 15. Barnes (English Country Dance Tunes, vol. 2), 2005; pg. 45. Hunter (Fiddle Music of Scotland), 1988; No. 288. Redwing Music RWMCD 5410, Abby Newton – “Castles, Kirks and Caves” (2001).
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Traditionally in Scotland, the term "reel" referred to a lively dance tune, not to the meter of the tune. So there are many Scottish tunes in 6/8 that are called reels (particularly from the 18th century and before).
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by fiddlebliss
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Da Shaalds o Foula is probably a more appropriate name for the tune also known as Da Foula Reel. As far as I know, Da Foula Reel is a dance for which Da Shaalds o Foula was used and so it probably took on the dance name.
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by DonaldK
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Reel of Tulloch (more of a strathspey).
Red River Jig (more of a reel).
Big John MacNeil (actually no bigger than you or me).
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by meself
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Well, I think you've pretty much cracked it, sessioneers!
... but what a about that Zeak Waltz (a hornpipe, and from Cornwall, I'm told).
So, what sayeth the followers of Trelawney, St. Piran and the black-and-white flag. Your opinion is required!
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Suggested tune to accompany The Penzance Broom Dance, apparently. Beyond that, a case of 'zeak and ye shall find'.
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
This is all very interesting...
I remember once dancing the Virginia reel at a friend's wedding, but I swear the DJ (!) played a jig.
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by jasonb
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Not to speak of a whole bunch of slow airs on this site that are put under the headings of anything but. That's the only bloody opinion you're getting from me. I have Doom Bar to drink don't you know.
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Amen, P-K, "Ezekiel and ye shall find"?
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
this oul thing:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1310
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Morpeth Rant, Pipes?
So why is this tune title deceptive?
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Hmm...
Perhaps the "Scarlet Pimpernel" was a Cornishman - and there was a French connection ..
... as in ...
"They zeak him 'ere, they zeak him there,
Those Frenchies zeak him everywhere,
Is he in Heaven? Or is he in Hell?
That damn*ed accurs-ed Pimpernel ! "
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
just cause it's called a "rant",when it's a reel
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Ah, Pipes - but a rant is not strictly a reel - although the time signature is the same (4/4). Reels have a lot more notes than rants.
The structure of a rant is similar to that of a a hornpipe, except (unlike hornpipes) is played with very little or no "swing".
Rants should be played with a very heavy emphasis on the first beat of the bar, and with a similar (although somewhat less) heavy emphasis on the third beat of the bar.
This emphasis is needed to fit in with the "rant step" - a feature of this particular dance (called a "rant") which originates from the NE of England and the border country.
I'll stop now (before anyone accuses me of ranting on about it!)
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Mix, so far as I am concerned, you may continue to "Rant" and rave all you want about music. I thought that was one of the purposes of this web site.
# Posted on January 18th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
Danger! Rant alert!
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Deceptive Tune Titles?
interesting, Mix. I never knew about the "rant"
# Posted on January 19th 2009 by pipewatcher