I play pianobox and use no bass i play frequently with oliver and we would have roughly the same style although he has more skils and tunes but when i say oliver's a good player people refuse to listen because of the pianobox factor
I have played in session (in france) with a continental button box, and never have had problems. I don't know if it would be the same in ireland ...
It isn't really usual to play with a such accordion, and some people don't like unusual things :(
well, I've heard box players tell me that the only thing worse than seeing a Round Case coming into a pub, is to see a large case (as in...a Piano Accordian).
When I asked why, they said it's because of the volume.
Personally I like them, and have played in sessions a good few times with a Piano Acc. player. Must be just a box-player-thing!
I wonder if the people who have a problem with the volume would say the same thing if Davey Spillane or Paddy Keenan came into a session with a set of pipes?
and...if I'm not mistaken...June herself plays with a group that have a Piano Acc. player (probably that lad in the clip, but I don't remember for sure). Great CD...band is called Siona, CD is called 'launching the boat'
I can't argue with it if it's played like that - great music.
I think it's a maligned instrument because it has such immense session wrecking potential (48 possible chords, 47 of them 'wrong' at any given point in a tune - and heaps of volume to boot) when in the wrong hands. noname2 - you do well not to use the basses if you're not sure how to use them - to use them well, you need to be a good melody player *and* a sensitive backer *and* you have to be able to do both at the same time without the one putting you off the other. And you need to have the ability to regulate the volume according to whom you are playing with. It's perhaps the players that don't realise those things that give it a bad name.
In my experience, even some highly accomplished players can be lacking where dynamics are concerned. Last year I was in a session with one of the best known and most highly respected piano accordion players in the Irish Traditional Music world. Whilst I could not fault their playing from a technical or stylistic point of view, I found the relentless volume overbearing and did not enjoy playing with them at all -they might as well have been playing alone. This is not a blanket criticism of the playing of this particular accordionist (who shall remain nameless) - perhaps they felt the need to play loud because of the acoustics of the venue or the level of background noise - but it serves to illustrate a characteristic of the instrument which does not always win it favour.
My honest opinion, and it may surprise some people on this site... is that that's a feckin excellent example of how good a piano box is in the right hands... and I listened to it 3 times
I was in fact in Glasgow at the weekend past, and had the pleasure of playing with two lads from Leeds, one of whom was playing a piano box (Paul) and used neither the basses, nor played at breakneck speed, nor played at all loudly. There was also Patrick on the banjo - together they were a pleasure to play with. So, it can most certainly be done.
I have no problem with the instrument itself, or with most other instruments used in traditional music - just like a car, it's the nut behind the wheel which is the critical component! Unless I'm dancing at a ceilidh - where piano box is ok in that setting, if I'm heading for a session and hear a piano box, I'll turn around and head for home, or another bar.. unless of course the nut behind the wheel is sound.
to be honest, this is just my personal taste, but to me it doesnt matter how goodit is played, i just dont like the sound that it produces, the volume, its a whole combination of things that lead to its sound. yea fine there are people who play it, but i dont like the sound. granted there loud button box players, but i prefer the sound (of the grey paolo's mainly, maybe a decent red or a nice briggs) and if it has couplers then the sound can be easily changed. the way it has to be played leads to nicer styles also. thats my opinion.
I'd just like to say "thanks' to dontheactor, who came up to our session on Monday and played with discretion and taste ( not words always found in connection with pas.....).
I must admit to having some prejudice against them, having played in three different bands with female players. What is it about female players of the pa, is it like them driving Chelsea Tractors (SUVs, or 4WDs, to you ) ? That they have this big thing and no-one can deny them their power ? Beats me. Even the best of these three ladies, after a time one came to hate the unrelenting tone and volume they produced.
I can't imagine anyone saying that wasn't some lovely playing, and the player did an excellent job making an equal sound with the other instruments, which is the whole point.
Again, and as usual, as with all instruments, it comes down to the player.
Can you hear any other instrument aside from yourself? Do you care?
More often than not, the PA gets a bad rep because many players can't and don't.
The friend I play the most with is a fluter. I LOVE to play the fiddle with him because I can play relaxed and gentle. The sound of the instruments mix together happily.
I've been there, sure. You get blasted out by someone with something, doesn't matter what, and sure enough, I'm bearing down harder and harder with my bowing arm to get more and more volume, perhaps I'll even tighten the bow up, and before I know it, my right arm feels like I just did 300 curls with a bank safe, and still all you can hear is someone with something, doesn't matter what.
Oh yes, and then I look over and the fluter is sitting there with his flute in his lap and that look on his face again.
Personally playing both the box and PA, the box is soooo much lighter to play. PA's can be boat anchors.
I find the sound a bit more legato actually. But that is not what one always wants. But there are several really good ITM PA players I have heard so will stay on the sidelines.
I'm not a fan - like Pete, I've played in too many sessions where there's been a loud,overbearing P**** A********, usually played by a woman. In one session I was the only fiddler in a small room full of accordions, at least one of which was amplified. They all played tunes I'd never ever heard outside that session and when they did play normal tunes they were in accordion friendly keys (ie C) I wasn't impressed and needless to say I haven't been back and not been a fan of accordions since.
That said, an accordion in good hands can be excellent (eg Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham)
I thought pianos were just big boxes with a something like a harp inside (said the man who has been playing piano for most of his life).
I agree completely with some of the comments about the volume of certain instruments being too loud.
If the instrument is so loud that you cannot hear anyone else at the session, then you either need to turn down the volume, stop playing the too-loud instrument, or switch to a quieter instrument.
Isn't there a simple relationship between volume and air pressure in the bellows?
I've never touched a PA, but somehow I would think it easier to play softly because fewer bellows reversals allows a lighter touch with the left arm, no?
"Can you hear any other instrument aside from yourself? Do you care?"
I care because I definitely want to be able to hear the other instruments at the session.
A session is unenjoyable and no fun for me if you can hear only one instrument and none of the others because that one instrument is too loud.
I don't play piano accordion and am not the least bit interested in learning how to play one.
I play piano and I do keep the volume turned down low so I can hear the other instruments.
Who are these people who set themselves up to dictate what instruments should or should not be used for playing the peoples music, and who gave them the right to do so? ??? I'm inclined to think, that sort of thinking came into vogue after the era of O'Riada, who came into Trad music late in life, criticised the way the music was played and dictated what instruments should be used. I certainly don't remember it before that time.
The session I was at last night was almost enough to turn me against the piano accordion for life. But, no, I shall stand my ground - it's the player, not the instrument.
Volume is perhaps the main issue with the piano accordion. As I said above, there are many otherwise capable players who seem oblivious to the amount of sound they produce and the effect it has on the other players. Perhaps dynamics is a neglected issue in traditional music teaching - it is popularly supposed to be *alien* to traditional music, although a listen to any of the best trad players will disprove this (even on instruments like the whistle or pipes, which are supposedly incapable of dynamic variation). But it is certainly true to say that there is not usually a great dynamic range employed in trad (Martin Hayes being one of the few exceptions) and many players tend to play close to the top of the dynamic range of their instrument (subject to their own playing technique) most of the time. That works fine for fiddles and flutes, but when it's a full-sized 120-bass piano box, that's a lot of noise to contend with (It is also worth noting that, to get maximum volume out of a flute fiddle requires good blowing or bowing technique, whilst getting maximum volume out of a piano box requires nothing but sheer brute force - not the case with a button box, where precise changes in bellows direction are essential to playing the right notes).
"getting maximum volume out of a piano box requires nothing but sheer brute force"
I know that is an unfair statement. I've tried playing one, so I know there is technique to it, but essentially, the harder you squeeze, the louder it plays.
An Honest opinion
An Honest opinion
I know that in the forums there has been argument over pianoboxes in irish music
Can those people who believe it has no place argue with this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sM1wcINZ8M
I play pianobox and use no bass i play frequently with oliver and we would have roughly the same style although he has more skils and tunes but when i say oliver's a good player people refuse to listen because of the pianobox factor
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by adamd
Re: An Honest opinion
nothin wrong with a piano box. Most people who argue against them prob just cant play them!!
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by Cradinski
Re: An Honest opinion
I have played in session (in france) with a continental button box, and never have had problems. I don't know if it would be the same in ireland ...
It isn't really usual to play with a such accordion, and some people don't like unusual things :(
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by RoLuPiN
Re: An Honest opinion
sorry for my english!
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by RoLuPiN
Re: An Honest opinion
That was great, thanks for sharing the link!
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by Glass of Beer
Re: An Honest opinion
well, I've heard box players tell me that the only thing worse than seeing a Round Case coming into a pub, is to see a large case (as in...a Piano Accordian).
When I asked why, they said it's because of the volume.
Personally I like them, and have played in sessions a good few times with a Piano Acc. player. Must be just a box-player-thing!
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by andy69
Re: An Honest opinion
I think it sounded great. Listened to it twice.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by Barry1963
Re: An Honest opinion
I wonder if the people who have a problem with the volume would say the same thing if Davey Spillane or Paddy Keenan came into a session with a set of pipes?
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by Cradinski
Re: An Honest opinion
and...if I'm not mistaken...June herself plays with a group that have a Piano Acc. player (probably that lad in the clip, but I don't remember for sure). Great CD...band is called Siona, CD is called 'launching the boat'
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by andy69
Re: An Honest opinion
I've not heard the term "pianobox" before - I assume that this discussion is referring to the piano accordian.
RoLuPiN - do you play what the French call an "accordeon diatonique"?
If so, this would be quite different from the piano accordian.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An Honest opinion
I never heard of a piano box either, im just goin with the flow!!!!
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by Cradinski
Re: An Honest opinion
I can't argue with it if it's played like that - great music.
I think it's a maligned instrument because it has such immense session wrecking potential (48 possible chords, 47 of them 'wrong' at any given point in a tune - and heaps of volume to boot) when in the wrong hands. noname2 - you do well not to use the basses if you're not sure how to use them - to use them well, you need to be a good melody player *and* a sensitive backer *and* you have to be able to do both at the same time without the one putting you off the other. And you need to have the ability to regulate the volume according to whom you are playing with. It's perhaps the players that don't realise those things that give it a bad name.
In my experience, even some highly accomplished players can be lacking where dynamics are concerned. Last year I was in a session with one of the best known and most highly respected piano accordion players in the Irish Traditional Music world. Whilst I could not fault their playing from a technical or stylistic point of view, I found the relentless volume overbearing and did not enjoy playing with them at all -they might as well have been playing alone. This is not a blanket criticism of the playing of this particular accordionist (who shall remain nameless) - perhaps they felt the need to play loud because of the acoustics of the venue or the level of background noise - but it serves to illustrate a characteristic of the instrument which does not always win it favour.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: An Honest opinion
More Oliver
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uV1zDuqrlEU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlGPKsz_23Y
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by ScoilCheoilnaBotha
Re: An Honest opinion
BTW I have also known button box players play unbearably loud.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: An Honest opinion
Ragman - a perfect summing up - you've said it all - amost.
There is something that I've seen a lot of piano accordian players do which you didn't mention:
Instead of going cleanly from one note to the next, I've seen some players using the backs of their nails to play every note in between ...
.. not keen on that at all.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An Honest opinion
My honest opinion, and it may surprise some people on this site... is that that's a feckin excellent example of how good a piano box is in the right hands... and I listened to it 3 times
I was in fact in Glasgow at the weekend past, and had the pleasure of playing with two lads from Leeds, one of whom was playing a piano box (Paul) and used neither the basses, nor played at breakneck speed, nor played at all loudly. There was also Patrick on the banjo - together they were a pleasure to play with. So, it can most certainly be done.
I have no problem with the instrument itself, or with most other instruments used in traditional music - just like a car, it's the nut behind the wheel which is the critical component! Unless I'm dancing at a ceilidh - where piano box is ok in that setting, if I'm heading for a session and hear a piano box, I'll turn around and head for home, or another bar.. unless of course the nut behind the wheel is sound.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: An Honest opinion
to be honest, this is just my personal taste, but to me it doesnt matter how goodit is played, i just dont like the sound that it produces, the volume, its a whole combination of things that lead to its sound. yea fine there are people who play it, but i dont like the sound. granted there loud button box players, but i prefer the sound (of the grey paolo's mainly, maybe a decent red or a nice briggs) and if it has couplers then the sound can be easily changed. the way it has to be played leads to nicer styles also. thats my opinion.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: An Honest opinion
that was to say *fine there are people who play it well*
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: An Honest opinion
I'd just like to say "thanks' to dontheactor, who came up to our session on Monday and played with discretion and taste ( not words always found in connection with pas.....).
I must admit to having some prejudice against them, having played in three different bands with female players. What is it about female players of the pa, is it like them driving Chelsea Tractors (SUVs, or 4WDs, to you ) ? That they have this big thing and no-one can deny them their power ? Beats me. Even the best of these three ladies, after a time one came to hate the unrelenting tone and volume they produced.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: An Honest opinion
I can't imagine anyone saying that wasn't some lovely playing, and the player did an excellent job making an equal sound with the other instruments, which is the whole point.
Again, and as usual, as with all instruments, it comes down to the player.
Can you hear any other instrument aside from yourself? Do you care?
More often than not, the PA gets a bad rep because many players can't and don't.
The friend I play the most with is a fluter. I LOVE to play the fiddle with him because I can play relaxed and gentle. The sound of the instruments mix together happily.
I've been there, sure. You get blasted out by someone with something, doesn't matter what, and sure enough, I'm bearing down harder and harder with my bowing arm to get more and more volume, perhaps I'll even tighten the bow up, and before I know it, my right arm feels like I just did 300 curls with a bank safe, and still all you can hear is someone with something, doesn't matter what.
Oh yes, and then I look over and the fluter is sitting there with his flute in his lap and that look on his face again.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: An Honest opinion
What was the name of the topless girl's accordion band? 'Ladies in Pain'?
C'mon. there's nothing wrong with a good PA players. Like the other instruments the problem is the bad PA players.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by zippydw
Re: An Honest opinion
Personally playing both the box and PA, the box is soooo much lighter to play. PA's can be boat anchors.
I find the sound a bit more legato actually. But that is not what one always wants. But there are several really good ITM PA players I have heard so will stay on the sidelines.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by zippydw
Re: An Honest opinion
I'm not a fan - like Pete, I've played in too many sessions where there's been a loud,overbearing P**** A********, usually played by a woman. In one session I was the only fiddler in a small room full of accordions, at least one of which was amplified. They all played tunes I'd never ever heard outside that session and when they did play normal tunes they were in accordion friendly keys (ie C) I wasn't impressed and needless to say I haven't been back and not been a fan of accordions since.
That said, an accordion in good hands can be excellent (eg Aly Bain and Phil Cunningham)
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by snowyowl
Re: An Honest opinion
I thought pianos were just big boxes with a something like a harp inside (said the man who has been playing piano for most of his life).
I agree completely with some of the comments about the volume of certain instruments being too loud.
If the instrument is so loud that you cannot hear anyone else at the session, then you either need to turn down the volume, stop playing the too-loud instrument, or switch to a quieter instrument.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: An Honest opinion
Isn't there a simple relationship between volume and air pressure in the bellows?
I've never touched a PA, but somehow I would think it easier to play softly because fewer bellows reversals allows a lighter touch with the left arm, no?
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by polkageist
Re: An Honest opinion
Depends whether it's adiabatic or isothermal expansion.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: An Honest opinion
WTF mate. Everyone knows those aren't mutually exclusive.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by polkageist
Re: An Honest opinion
"Can you hear any other instrument aside from yourself? Do you care?"
I care because I definitely want to be able to hear the other instruments at the session.
A session is unenjoyable and no fun for me if you can hear only one instrument and none of the others because that one instrument is too loud.
I don't play piano accordion and am not the least bit interested in learning how to play one.
I play piano and I do keep the volume turned down low so I can hear the other instruments.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: An Honest opinion
I play piano accordion and I think that it depends entirely on the player and whether they are a sensetive musician.
# Posted on January 16th 2009 by jimbob
Re: An Honest opinion
Who are these people who set themselves up to dictate what instruments should or should not be used for playing the peoples music, and who gave them the right to do so? ??? I'm inclined to think, that sort of thinking came into vogue after the era of O'Riada, who came into Trad music late in life, criticised the way the music was played and dictated what instruments should be used. I certainly don't remember it before that time.
# Posted on January 16th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: An Honest opinion
The session I was at last night was almost enough to turn me against the piano accordion for life. But, no, I shall stand my ground - it's the player, not the instrument.
Volume is perhaps the main issue with the piano accordion. As I said above, there are many otherwise capable players who seem oblivious to the amount of sound they produce and the effect it has on the other players. Perhaps dynamics is a neglected issue in traditional music teaching - it is popularly supposed to be *alien* to traditional music, although a listen to any of the best trad players will disprove this (even on instruments like the whistle or pipes, which are supposedly incapable of dynamic variation). But it is certainly true to say that there is not usually a great dynamic range employed in trad (Martin Hayes being one of the few exceptions) and many players tend to play close to the top of the dynamic range of their instrument (subject to their own playing technique) most of the time. That works fine for fiddles and flutes, but when it's a full-sized 120-bass piano box, that's a lot of noise to contend with (It is also worth noting that, to get maximum volume out of a flute fiddle requires good blowing or bowing technique, whilst getting maximum volume out of a piano box requires nothing but sheer brute force - not the case with a button box, where precise changes in bellows direction are essential to playing the right notes).
# Posted on January 16th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: An Honest opinion
"to get maximum volume out of a flute fiddle"
to get maximum volume out of a flute *OR* fiddle
# Posted on January 16th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: An Honest opinion
"getting maximum volume out of a piano box requires nothing but sheer brute force"
I know that is an unfair statement. I've tried playing one, so I know there is technique to it, but essentially, the harder you squeeze, the louder it plays.
# Posted on January 16th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: An Honest opinion
Aha! Ho ho! So quit squeezing the beejeebus out of the thing then, eh ragaman? The truth leaks out...
# Posted on January 16th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: An Honest opinion
...I've never tried playing Irish music on it.
# Posted on January 16th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: An Honest opinion
...No disrespect to such fine players as Oliver Loughlin, but that was the best thin *I* ever did for Irish music.
# Posted on January 16th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig