I just bought the "O'Neill's 1001" re-issue by Walton's http://www.amazon.com/ONeills-1001-Dance-Music-Ireland/dp/0786616032 & I wish I had gotten my hands on it a long time ago. The tune choices are great, it's much more legible that the 1850, or original 1001. The settings are kind of funky, in a good way. I esp liked the setting of Paddy O'Raferty's Jig. Some settings are completely outdated, but at least it can be used a resource to see how it was played at one time & how the tradition has progressed.
The Krassen version is too fiddle-centric & leaves out some great tunes like; Mayor Harrison's Fedora, Bunker Hill & Contradiction, to name a few. Some of it's better points are that it's easy on the eyes, although it does write out every roll & grace note, which can be distracting, but at least it's not blotchy & the staff is legible. There's not too many errors in the notes & keys. It's somewhat reliable to get the bones of the tune your looking for, as long as it's in there. It can also be said that this book has a large collection of O'Carolan' music.
I feel the yellow & green "O'Neill's 1850" by Mel Bay is by far the worst edition; most tunes are written in the wrong key & there's alot of duds - just boring, forgetable tunes. When there is a tune that is still palyed the setting tends not to be the best. I also find the music illegible in that edition, whole tunes are written out on one line in very blotchy, tiny typeface. On the upside it has a good section of airs, but I still think those are best learned by ear.
All in all, I wish I had gotten myself this collection when I first got bit by the bug. Best value overall.
The 1850 has a lot of nice material the O'Neills left out of the 1001 though, such as Touhey's setting of the Grinder - very different than the usual, practically a different tune - or John Ennis's D setting of the Mills are Grinding, aka the Custom Gap; or the Belfast hornpipe. Etc. I usually use the 1850, and just ignore the faulty key sigs etc. Thought about going through and excerpting what's unique from it for an addendum to the 1001 but that would be a hefty bit of work.
well, yeah, the tunes are "outdated", in either one. It's a super grainy snapshot of the tradition in a small corner of America at a very particular time using a crappy medium (dots). Tunes, like dialects, drift over time. You could find some older settings in Ryan's mammoth collection, or even older settings in that thing all the "Jackson's" tunes are in, though.
This is the Walton's version and not a cover version of the Mel Bay book?
I was looking for the best '1001' and actually was finding the best versions at the OldMusicProject site on the web. Their transcriptions were most reflective of the arrangements the folks I have played with use.
Also, while acknowledging the original historical keys for a few of the tunes which don't work for some instruments, their sheets are written in ITM freindly keys.
This is why I am increasingly coming to our 'Dark Side' freind's view of spots. You need to learn the tune by ear so you know where the problems in the spots are. I use the approach where I learn the tune by ear, either mark-up or transcribe the thing to match the by ear learnt version and have a copy for file as I get older and the 'little grey cells' need a jog once in a while.
It's about time the Roche Collection was re-printed. There's some very good stuff in it, and Roche collected, researched and presented his material very professionally.
What do you need the book for if you've got the Edison cylinders?
(my copy of the big yellow O'Neill's is very well used. I havent got the 1001 - might invest!)
It's clear that many of the tunes that Roche transcribed with apparent skill from musicians in Ireland are older versions of what we know today, and often differ substantially from tunes of the same name in O'Neill and other collections. "Over the Bridge to Peggy" and "Touch Me If You Dare" are two obvious examples. I posted them here over Christmas.
Roche isn't easy to get hold of (I was lucky in that my copy was given to me) and I haven't seen any indications that it is going to be reprinted. However, I've just come across this website http://www.qmcorp.net/webabc/bigfolder/roche.abc which usefully contains the ABCs of over 100 tunes from the Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music. It's a 40KB text file that's easy to copy and paste. The tunes listed are:
Maids of Tramore
Maids of Glenroe
Pigeon's Tail
Butter Boys
Morduant's
Welcome to Ireland
Boys of Ballycahill
Out Beyond the Moor
Little Drummers
Little Bag of Meal aka Humors of Mullinafauna
Wheels of the World aka Day After the Fair
Mountain Brow
Gardener's Daughter
Hag's Grave
Teresa Halpin's
Rose of Castletown
Wild Fire Chase
Windy Gap
Maid Amongst the Roses
Outdoor Relief
Pretty Maid of Bulgaden
Miss Looney's
Scotch Sally
Purty Girl
Laune Rangers
Greenwood Lasses
Back of the Change
Spatter the Dew
Turnpike Gate (1st & 2nd settings)
Polly Put the Kettle On
Stick the Minister
Woodcock Hill
Mountain Ranger
Galloping O'Hogan
Girl of the House
Killaloe Boat
Strap the Razor
You'll Go A-Hunting No More
Standing Abbey
Standard Hornpipe
Molly Brallaghan
What Call Have You to Me Ned
Firm Old Tune
Pattern Day
Eastern Harper
Brian the Brave aka Poll Ha'penny
Pride of Glennanair
Whiskey in the Jar
Salley Picker
Family Dinner
Pure Drop
Jolly Tinker
Dashing White Sergeant
Over the Moor to Maggie
Women's Cliff
Black Horse
The Mower
Cock Your Pistol Charlie
Echoes of Killarney
Man in the Moon
Golden Pass
Paddy Be Aisy
Skin the Peelers
Berwick Jockey
Up in the Garret I Am
Looping
New Widow Well Married
Ruffle the (Old) Hag
Love Won't You Marry Me?
Repeal of the Union
Knocktoran Fair
Riding on a Load of Hay
Pat Murphy the Piper
Kate of Garnevilla
Bob and Joan
Boy from the Mountain
Marching to Drogheda
Green Flag
Lord St Clair's
Wayside Waggon
Low Road to the City
O'Flaherty's Gamble
Tripping Thro' the Meadows
Jolly Plumber
Bumper Allen's Delight
Over the Bridge to Peggy
Humors of Old Knockaney
Melodious Foot of the Glen
Crooked Way to Dublin
Priest's Leap
Truthful John
Caffler's Courtship
Shanahan's Rambles
Hatter from Nenagh
Thirsty for a Drink
Follies of Youth
Awkward Clown's Antics aka Emmett Kelly's
The Girl for Me
The Politician
Farewell to Liberty
Cockled Old Man
Galbally Farmer aka Rakes of Kildare
Hills of Tipperary
Country Dance
Buckskin Breeches
Dogs in the Barley
Morning Dew
Bruise the Pease
Fair Haired Lad
All the Way to Galway
Merry Pedlar
Humors of Limerick
Hunt the Cat
Lodge Gate
Thieving Magpie
Lonesome Wedding
... and I'm not apologising for such a long list. It's not every day that such gems appear!
A few more facts about the Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music.
The first volume came out in 1909. The three volume edition of 571 tunes was published in 1927. I don't know when Ossian Publications last published it (my copy dates back to 1982).
There is a wide variety of tunes: polkas (there hardly any in the “1001”), reels, hornpipes, jigs (in all varieties), set dances, marches, waltzes (including many that are useful for ceilis), flings, mazurkas, quadrilles, schottisches, tunes for the figures in a few set dances such as the Orange and Green, a respectable number of airs, long dances (“Walls of Limerick”, “Siege of Ennis”, “Bridge of Athlone”, “The Cotillion” etc), and non-Irish dance tunes that are often played in ceilis. There are also two lengthy (multi-page!) fiddle tunes that are best decribed as “virtuoso” and wouldn't have been out of place in the hands of J Scott Skinner (Variations on “The Fox Chase”, and “Contented I Am”). The final tune in the book is, appropriately, “Amhrán na n-Óglach” (in D).
Many tunes are named in Irish, and don't necessarily have English translations, so a small pocket dictionary may be handy for the non-Irish reader.
The music is printed large and clear, and if there are any significant errors I have yet to spot them.
Roche's attention to detail comes out in those tunes where he indicates those notes that are played ¼ tone sharp.
In my view, very important parts of the tri-partite collection are the detailed and erudite Introduction, Foreword, Prefaces to Volumes I and III, and the invaluable historical information in the Note On Irish Dancing.
The “Bridge of Athlone” in the 1850 is another nice unique item - a beautiful Bb hornpipe that Coleman played first in his "Banks" medley - of "Barn Dances," btw. Nothing to do with the Celidh dance far as I can tell. Can go nicely on the flute or pipes in G. There are plenty more examples of alternate settings in there but like I said what a chore it'd be collating them all.
My Roche is from Oak publishing, 1983. It apparently gathered dust for 13 years.
"Interesting that on Amazon US its 16$ whereas in Sterling its a hefty 36 quid"
Gedpipes, I wonder if someone in the UK who ordered up that 16$ item from Amazon.com (in the US) would find themselves paying shipping and possibly import duty sufficient to bring the end cost up close to the £36 they'd be paying for an Amazon.co.uk order here in England. Do you know if the Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk Roches are the same edition or publisher? If not, that could affect the price.
O'Neill's 1001
O'Neill's 1001
I just bought the "O'Neill's 1001" re-issue by Walton's http://www.amazon.com/ONeills-1001-Dance-Music-Ireland/dp/0786616032 & I wish I had gotten my hands on it a long time ago. The tune choices are great, it's much more legible that the 1850, or original 1001. The settings are kind of funky, in a good way. I esp liked the setting of Paddy O'Raferty's Jig. Some settings are completely outdated, but at least it can be used a resource to see how it was played at one time & how the tradition has progressed.
The Krassen version is too fiddle-centric & leaves out some great tunes like; Mayor Harrison's Fedora, Bunker Hill & Contradiction, to name a few. Some of it's better points are that it's easy on the eyes, although it does write out every roll & grace note, which can be distracting, but at least it's not blotchy & the staff is legible. There's not too many errors in the notes & keys. It's somewhat reliable to get the bones of the tune your looking for, as long as it's in there. It can also be said that this book has a large collection of O'Carolan' music.
I feel the yellow & green "O'Neill's 1850" by Mel Bay is by far the worst edition; most tunes are written in the wrong key & there's alot of duds - just boring, forgetable tunes. When there is a tune that is still palyed the setting tends not to be the best. I also find the music illegible in that edition, whole tunes are written out on one line in very blotchy, tiny typeface. On the upside it has a good section of airs, but I still think those are best learned by ear.
All in all, I wish I had gotten myself this collection when I first got bit by the bug. Best value overall.
# Posted on January 14th 2009 by Brad Maloney
Re: O'Neill's 1001
The 1850 has a lot of nice material the O'Neills left out of the 1001 though, such as Touhey's setting of the Grinder - very different than the usual, practically a different tune - or John Ennis's D setting of the Mills are Grinding, aka the Custom Gap; or the Belfast hornpipe. Etc. I usually use the 1850, and just ignore the faulty key sigs etc. Thought about going through and excerpting what's unique from it for an addendum to the 1001 but that would be a hefty bit of work.
# Posted on January 14th 2009 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: O'Neill's 1001
"Some settings are completely outdated"? Errr ... come again? What kind of music are you wanting to play?
# Posted on January 14th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: O'Neill's 1001
I think he means that the way they're scored in O'Neill's is very different from the way they're now usually played in sessions.
# Posted on January 14th 2009 by Robert Ryan
Re: O'Neill's 1001
well, yeah, the tunes are "outdated", in either one. It's a super grainy snapshot of the tradition in a small corner of America at a very particular time using a crappy medium (dots). Tunes, like dialects, drift over time. You could find some older settings in Ryan's mammoth collection, or even older settings in that thing all the "Jackson's" tunes are in, though.
# Posted on January 14th 2009 by reenactor
Re: O'Neill's 1001
This is the Walton's version and not a cover version of the Mel Bay book?
I was looking for the best '1001' and actually was finding the best versions at the OldMusicProject site on the web. Their transcriptions were most reflective of the arrangements the folks I have played with use.
Also, while acknowledging the original historical keys for a few of the tunes which don't work for some instruments, their sheets are written in ITM freindly keys.
This is why I am increasingly coming to our 'Dark Side' freind's view of spots. You need to learn the tune by ear so you know where the problems in the spots are. I use the approach where I learn the tune by ear, either mark-up or transcribe the thing to match the by ear learnt version and have a copy for file as I get older and the 'little grey cells' need a jog once in a while.
# Posted on January 14th 2009 by zippydw
Re: O'Neill's 1001
It's about time the Roche Collection was re-printed. There's some very good stuff in it, and Roche collected, researched and presented his material very professionally.
# Posted on January 14th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: O'Neill's 1001
What do you need the book for if you've got the Edison cylinders?
(my copy of the big yellow O'Neill's is very well used. I havent got the 1001 - might invest!)
# Posted on January 14th 2009 by RichardB
Re: O'Neill's 1001
I've only seen the Roche collection once & I didn't get to sit down with it, I've heard it is very good.
Kevin maybe we can cull out the goodies from 1850, do you have more favorites?
# Posted on January 14th 2009 by Brad Maloney
Re: O'Neill's 1001
It's clear that many of the tunes that Roche transcribed with apparent skill from musicians in Ireland are older versions of what we know today, and often differ substantially from tunes of the same name in O'Neill and other collections. "Over the Bridge to Peggy" and "Touch Me If You Dare" are two obvious examples. I posted them here over Christmas.
Roche isn't easy to get hold of (I was lucky in that my copy was given to me) and I haven't seen any indications that it is going to be reprinted. However, I've just come across this website http://www.qmcorp.net/webabc/bigfolder/roche.abc which usefully contains the ABCs of over 100 tunes from the Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music. It's a 40KB text file that's easy to copy and paste. The tunes listed are:
Maids of Tramore
Maids of Glenroe
Pigeon's Tail
Butter Boys
Morduant's
Welcome to Ireland
Boys of Ballycahill
Out Beyond the Moor
Little Drummers
Little Bag of Meal aka Humors of Mullinafauna
Wheels of the World aka Day After the Fair
Mountain Brow
Gardener's Daughter
Hag's Grave
Teresa Halpin's
Rose of Castletown
Wild Fire Chase
Windy Gap
Maid Amongst the Roses
Outdoor Relief
Pretty Maid of Bulgaden
Miss Looney's
Scotch Sally
Purty Girl
Laune Rangers
Greenwood Lasses
Back of the Change
Spatter the Dew
Turnpike Gate (1st & 2nd settings)
Polly Put the Kettle On
Stick the Minister
Woodcock Hill
Mountain Ranger
Galloping O'Hogan
Girl of the House
Killaloe Boat
Strap the Razor
You'll Go A-Hunting No More
Standing Abbey
Standard Hornpipe
Molly Brallaghan
What Call Have You to Me Ned
Firm Old Tune
Pattern Day
Eastern Harper
Brian the Brave aka Poll Ha'penny
Pride of Glennanair
Whiskey in the Jar
Salley Picker
Family Dinner
Pure Drop
Jolly Tinker
Dashing White Sergeant
Over the Moor to Maggie
Women's Cliff
Black Horse
The Mower
Cock Your Pistol Charlie
Echoes of Killarney
Man in the Moon
Golden Pass
Paddy Be Aisy
Skin the Peelers
Berwick Jockey
Up in the Garret I Am
Looping
New Widow Well Married
Ruffle the (Old) Hag
Love Won't You Marry Me?
Repeal of the Union
Knocktoran Fair
Riding on a Load of Hay
Pat Murphy the Piper
Kate of Garnevilla
Bob and Joan
Boy from the Mountain
Marching to Drogheda
Green Flag
Lord St Clair's
Wayside Waggon
Low Road to the City
O'Flaherty's Gamble
Tripping Thro' the Meadows
Jolly Plumber
Bumper Allen's Delight
Over the Bridge to Peggy
Humors of Old Knockaney
Melodious Foot of the Glen
Crooked Way to Dublin
Priest's Leap
Truthful John
Caffler's Courtship
Shanahan's Rambles
Hatter from Nenagh
Thirsty for a Drink
Follies of Youth
Awkward Clown's Antics aka Emmett Kelly's
The Girl for Me
The Politician
Farewell to Liberty
Cockled Old Man
Galbally Farmer aka Rakes of Kildare
Hills of Tipperary
Country Dance
Buckskin Breeches
Dogs in the Barley
Morning Dew
Bruise the Pease
Fair Haired Lad
All the Way to Galway
Merry Pedlar
Humors of Limerick
Hunt the Cat
Lodge Gate
Thieving Magpie
Lonesome Wedding
... and I'm not apologising for such a long list. It's not every day that such gems appear!
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: O'Neill's 1001
Note the juxtaposition in the above list (and in Roche's pages) of "The Politician" and "Farewell to Liberty".
Times haven't changed.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: O'Neill's 1001
A few more facts about the Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music.
The first volume came out in 1909. The three volume edition of 571 tunes was published in 1927. I don't know when Ossian Publications last published it (my copy dates back to 1982).
There is a wide variety of tunes: polkas (there hardly any in the “1001”), reels, hornpipes, jigs (in all varieties), set dances, marches, waltzes (including many that are useful for ceilis), flings, mazurkas, quadrilles, schottisches, tunes for the figures in a few set dances such as the Orange and Green, a respectable number of airs, long dances (“Walls of Limerick”, “Siege of Ennis”, “Bridge of Athlone”, “The Cotillion” etc), and non-Irish dance tunes that are often played in ceilis. There are also two lengthy (multi-page!) fiddle tunes that are best decribed as “virtuoso” and wouldn't have been out of place in the hands of J Scott Skinner (Variations on “The Fox Chase”, and “Contented I Am”). The final tune in the book is, appropriately, “Amhrán na n-Óglach” (in D).
Many tunes are named in Irish, and don't necessarily have English translations, so a small pocket dictionary may be handy for the non-Irish reader.
The music is printed large and clear, and if there are any significant errors I have yet to spot them.
Roche's attention to detail comes out in those tunes where he indicates those notes that are played ¼ tone sharp.
In my view, very important parts of the tri-partite collection are the detailed and erudite Introduction, Foreword, Prefaces to Volumes I and III, and the invaluable historical information in the Note On Irish Dancing.
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: O'Neill's 1001
Most Irish tune titles in Roche have English translations. It's fine for reference but I never took much from it for playing. YMMV.
The Ossian edition is from 1982 (God, is it really that long ago already).
# Posted on January 15th 2009 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: O'Neill's 1001
Interesting that on Amazon US its 16$ whereas in Sterling its a hefty 36 quid
# Posted on January 16th 2009 by gedpipes
Re: O'Neill's 1001
The “Bridge of Athlone” in the 1850 is another nice unique item - a beautiful Bb hornpipe that Coleman played first in his "Banks" medley - of "Barn Dances," btw. Nothing to do with the Celidh dance far as I can tell. Can go nicely on the flute or pipes in G. There are plenty more examples of alternate settings in there but like I said what a chore it'd be collating them all.
My Roche is from Oak publishing, 1983. It apparently gathered dust for 13 years.
# Posted on January 16th 2009 by Kevin Rietmann
Re: O'Neill's 1001
"Interesting that on Amazon US its 16$ whereas in Sterling its a hefty 36 quid"
Gedpipes, I wonder if someone in the UK who ordered up that 16$ item from Amazon.com (in the US) would find themselves paying shipping and possibly import duty sufficient to bring the end cost up close to the £36 they'd be paying for an Amazon.co.uk order here in England. Do you know if the Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk Roches are the same edition or publisher? If not, that could affect the price.
# Posted on January 17th 2009 by lazyhound