a) Yes, please!
b) No, thanks.
c) Well, I guess, if you must, but will you kindly go fetch me a pint first and then sit outside the circle.
d) O.K., but only if you play bodhran or harp.
e) Flippin' heck!
Please assume instrument proficiency is not an issue. The musician (guitarist, CBOMist, keyboardist, etc) posing the question is competent and tasteful.
...but what if I've never played with them before? How do I know that they are competent and tasteful? Do I have ESP? Super powers? If so, why I am working for a living and not fabulously wealthy? Are there already backers there? What if my hard-studying yet still slightly shaky buddy is there already backing with the instrument in question? Do I kick him aside to try out the newbie? Let two of the same accompanying instrument flail away, driving the flute player bananas because he can't make his gentle diddles heard over the combined din of two guitars, keyboards (on piano settings, please) bodhrans, or what have you?
So many questions! AAA! Too early, I need more coffee for such weighty philosophical questions.
...and then there's the time (last week) I was too nice so we ended up with 14 musicians, consisting of a box, harmonica, 2 fiddles, flute, hammered dulcimer...and 8 drummers and strummers, most of them with questionable etiquette. (read that as: all playing at the same time without listening to the racket they were making)
Ah-yup. Never again. Thankfully, this made me finally realize the value of being strict when trying to maintain session quality, or sanity, in this case.
Accompanists! Regulate thyself, or thy shall be regulated!
...and I nearly forgot, we could have had a concertina player too, though she became horrified at the scene and departed, which further increased my enlightenment. She has gladly accepted my apologies and agreed to assist me in the future with regulation of the whacking and strumming hordes. Thank goodness for dear friends.
Ah yes, welcome indeed to the world of elightenment. Just say "no". It's so easy. Don't be swayed by embarasment. Don't be week. Welcome indeed to the glorious longterm satisfaction of the outcome of spoiling some eedjit's night. Look to the future and thou shall reep rewards. Be strong.
SWFL with the snowbirds all showing up for the season you've got a good reason to remind the backers they need to remember that they are indeed backers, and while everyone is welcome, please take turns amongst yourselves or otherwise manage the din to the level of backing. It may not be clear to them exactly what that means at first but how about if we just stop playing in the middle of the tune? "Sorry, I couldn't hear the other melody players." Give me a sign when you are being artistic vs. frustrated and I'll act accordingly. Hopefully it won't take too many aborts to make the point. Oh and I think the idea of grouping the melody players together is a good one too.
That said, to get back to the topic which I read as "Do you like good backing." the answer from this flute player is 1). Emphasis on the "good." Mainly because when I take a breath or otherwise pause the music completely stops. Dead air. Which is OK, and can be used to great artistic effect, but it's nice to have notes ring out for a few milliseconds like they do on a fiddle or guitar so you can have a moment to lick your lips to keep them from sticking to your teeth or to have a swallow once in a while when in the middle of a mighty set of reels.
Re-reading what I just I suppose I should acknowledge that playing with other melody players also gives me a chance to pause while the music continues, so I'd say I could be happy just with melody instruments too. But for a "production" sound, and maybe that assumes some modern production values that have no place in ITM, some backing by a guitar and/or bodhran is a good thing for the modern (punter?) listener. But if we're talking production here, the sound engineer has that volume slider to make sure it's really backing.
Thank you Mr. Llig. You are my backbone inspiration.
...and Mr. cjp's flutery is a necessary component of my weekly musical joy. He's also a bit more forceful than I, so I'm sure he can help me keep the musical peace.
I have to agree with Zippydw. As someone still in the learning stages of this music, I've recently had the good fortune to play with someone lightyears ahead of me in talent, who plays backup when not on the fiddle. He makes the music really exciting and I try to rise to the occasion. The crowd in the pub seems to like it.
Asking the question shows a degree of awareness and courtesy that deserves recognition.
Things can be "managed" even if the answer is "no thanks, not this one."
There's a very competent multi-intrumentalist around the Oxford area (some may know who I mean) who will quite often start a set with something quite obscure, which he gets to play solo, then he moves on into something more familiar which brings everyone in.
Yes, absolutely, within reason. But melody players should dominate, even locally; I recall a medium-sized session where I was sandwiched between a guitarist and a bouzouki player who was playing chords, and I couldn't hear any melody players besides myself. Not good. Things went a lot better when I moved a few seats away, but the experiece did make me wonder how orchestra players manage, stuck as they are with their own kind.
Mind you, the backers I play with tend to be responsible enough to realize that, say, three good guitarists backing does not sound three times as good as one good guitarist.
I'm slowly transforming into one of those grumpy pipers who thinks the ideal session may.... just may, be a group of melody players with no backing.
That said, I do like and appreciate tasteful strummers and drummers but am growing less tolerant of the "wall of sound" you get when you have a giant herd of backers who don't listen to each other (or anyone else). Was at a session a couple months ago with about four or five melody players and seven or eight strummers and drummers, only one or two of which had a clue. Not good. A fiddle player, who is a lovely fiddler player, started a set and I could not hear her through the racket between her and me. I bailed after that and went home.
Another time there was a beginner guitarist sitting next to me who was playing really loudly but kind of in the right key. Until I played the Virginia Reel, which always seems to throw backers who don't know it. He was playing something odd and I stopped mid-tune and said, "You're in the wrong key." He said, "What key is it?" I answered, "Uhh.... E dorian/D-ish. I don't know." I resumed the tune, he resumed playing, faffing around trying to find he key. Argh.
Good backers bring out something in the music. Melody players-only brings out something else. I like both but the melody-players-only always sounds really cool, possibly because it is somewhat of a novelty at sessions as it doesn't happen that often.
This is not really answering the topic but just something I wanted to share
Yesterday my husband (an ex-rock-guitarist before I met him) got his guitar out after 15 years of me begging him to accompany my flute (silver boehm). We played a bit of Beatles stuff and it sounded pretty cool - then I produced my wooden whistle and launched into some Irish. Wow did we make some great music!
Was it "traditional?" - no I guess not, but it really brought my whistle to life. It brought out something in my playing - sort of free and joyful.
I guess it would be the same with another melody instrument but for someone who normally plays alone (no sessions near) it was so much fun.
Taminka
Accompanists throw me off. I end up listening to the accompaniment as though it were a second melody player (which is what I'm accustomed to and comfortable with), and then I got tossed off my own tune and I start trying to follow the accompaniment instead. It's weird >_>
'and then I got tossed off my own tune and I start trying to follow the accompaniment instead. It's weird'
Don't forget that there are plenty of melody players tossing off their tunes with no regard for rhythm, tuning, or their fellow melody players, let alone the backers. I've seen and heard it all too many times in sessions: the out-of-tune fiddle players battling away in the competition to outscrape their neighbours with their jerky sawing and tune butchery. Apparently this is perfectly OK if you learnt from another butcher who also has no respect for technique or appreciation for the violin (perhaps the most perfect of instruments in the right hands). As long as you learn in a 'traditional' way from another person you can call it 'the music' even if you can't play a note in time or in tune. This then gives you an automatic right to criticise, deride and make cheap jokes about anyone who plays 'backing' on another instrument that only appeared thirty years into the fifty years of 'tradition'.
This applies equally to other melody players. You can strangle the pipes like a dying cat, or parp through an out of tune whistle that sounds like an explosion in a plastic recorder factory, but it doesn't matter as long as you can claim to have learnt in a 'traditional' way. This is what gives modern folk music a bad name. Quality is not important. Only tradition matters.
Backing has an important place in this music. Do you any of you have a right to tell someone to stop? Is it your session? Perhaps you own the pub? I wish I could tell the out-of-tune melody players to 'take turns amongst themselves'. I wish I had the courage to tell the 'herd' of scrapers, tooters, parpers and melodic murderers that their 'wall of sound' is offensive and disgraceful to the beauty of this music. I wish I had the courage to 'just say no'.
I never differentiate between strummers and tune players. Everyone in the ensemble should have an equal place. Crap strummers or tune players get equal treatment
When I'm driving behind a learner driver I always slow down and give them room for manoeuvre. I don't blast my horn or get impatient. I don't wind my window down and shout at them. I don't tell them which roads they can drive on. I didn't write the Highway Code. Perhaps you did.
Me? I'm usually the crap tune player who chooses sessions very tactfully. Some are friendly for learners, some are not, others to varying degrees. It's just the way of it. Is it a situation that I am happy with all the time; no, usually not (as anyone who knows me can attest), but that's how sessions are. There is no overall "Highway Code" one way or another but rather decisions you have to make on a session-by-session basis. Will I add anything if I play here (usually not). In that case, will I be detrimental (depends).
I got an agreed rule. The tune should be more prominent than the noodles, the strum and the whack. Why should anyone suffer that, for any reason?
Actually, that isn't a rule, it's just common sense.
Another piece of common sense would be for the alpha to deal with these problems, if the group can not, or soon there won't BE a session for anyone, as they'll all get sick of it and split. "Who needs this nonsense? I'm out."
So, screw egalitarianism resulting in total crap. I'm going for decency, and will enforce it if people can't do it themselves. It's not a public road, it's a private track on someone's property, despite the quaint title of 'public house', and that someone asked me to start the session.
No idea why I took that so personally, Joel, my apologies. No harm meant.
Joel, this isn't kindergarten. If someone comes in and p*sses in the punchbowl, you can ask them please to stop. You can be nice about it, in fact you should, but in the end either the miserable sod who can't play will leave, or someone you enjoy playing with will. Which do you prefer?
Backing seems to be the easy way to join in. Therefore you get folks who won't dedicate the blood sweat and tears that it takes to learn the melody. Most don't even take the time to learn acceptable chords or rythmn patterns to a tune. These people think they can sit down and, if you tell them the key, they can do a fine job. They never heard the tune. They don't even give the tune a listening to in order find out how it goes. If you ask them what type (jig, reel) of tune it is, they can't tell you. When you ask them to start a tune, they either can't because they don't know specific tunes or they just start strumming wildly a "d" chord and everyone else is suppose to know what it is!!
And Jon is right. These people will drive tune players away.
Idiot learning drivers shouldn't be tolerated, either. If they are dangerous, rude or don't bother learning the laws of the road, they should be kicked off the road.
Well, idiot *learning* drivers are allowed on the road, under certain strict conditions.
Perhaps idiot learning players should be allowed to attend sessions if accompanied by a session player of a certain number of years' experience, and if wearing a big hat with "STUDENT GUITARIST" in bright red letters? (or other instrument, replace as necessary. the hat, I guess, isn't needed for some - the bodhran gives it away...)
You'll ask, how do you know who's the student? Well, that's easy, they're the ones who give themselves away - say, calling a tune a song, or something....
(I can't get around the image of a bodhran with a chicken brake!)
To be honest... I rarely take my guitar to a session these days as one guitar player is usually enough. (And there is always more than one) It can really detract from the rhythm that the session is trying to portray.
I much prefrer to play fiddle at a session. But sometimes will take out the octave mando where i can play both rhythm/melody sometimes.
Right, but unfortunately its quite possible to play the 'notes of the tune' but with no rhythm, or very poor rhythm. no swing, lift or drive. These factors ,drive etc, all stem from a mastery of rhythm, or lack of it.
I often take my guitar to sessions, there are so many fiddlers around here and few guitarists. I've yet to receive 'the look'. In fact, the general reaction is great.
I like to run my own sessions with the fiddle, so I can play my favorite tunes in odd keys or whatever I like. All welcome as long the ground rules are understood.
Hey Llig,,, I am a rhythm player. Which ever instrument i choose to play on. (Melody, Backing) It's a by-product of my dancing days.
I guess what I meant to say was "whether I was playing backing or Melody". Damn the written english language and it's different ways of interpreting it!
I agree with you... there IS Rhythm in the melody... and a good backer will play along with that.
I'm the one who started this thread, and I must say it has been very helpful to me.
I picked up the octave mandolin last November and immediately became fascinated with ITM. The obvious 'easiest' thing for me to do was to learn chords and focus on backing. However, after doing this for a couple of weeks I realised that not only was this unsatisfying, I was not making much progress learning accompaniment by ear, nor was I making progress remembering the tunes that I could figure out. I changed course and began learning the melody, and the flower opened up. I started to 'get it' rhythmically, and began to conceptualise backing in a different way. Listening to Donal and Andy (and many others of couse e.g. Alec Finn) helped, of course.
I just had my first formal lesson yesterday with a fiddler who also plays mandolin. He began straight away to put me to rights on my rhythm. He is very much of the opinion that before I even begin to think about backing a tune, I have the melody down cold. My goal in backing is to conceptualise it more as 'chordal counter-melody', rather than 'rhythm strumming' on all but the fastest tunes. this is what I hear Donal, Alec, et al. doing.
Also, thanks for such a vigorous response one of my first few attempts at starting a discussion.
Yep, it seems that in just a couple of months you have found out for your self the second most important mantra that should without fail be adhered to. Namely: Learn the tunes.
The funny thing is, that those are often synonymous for me.
My wife and I were just discussing this issue yesterday. For my whole life, it seems, whenever I listen to any music that grabs me, I immediately begin to 'learn the tune.' This doesn't mean that I try to learn how to play the music, necessarily, just that I begin to imagine how I would go about playing it. I really have a difficult time listening to music purely for pleasure. It is not impossible, just difficult.
It is either a blessing or a curse. Sometimes both. So, llig, I guess that means my personal musical mantra is 'listen and learn'.
Yeah, listen and learn is pretty good. But with this music especially, trying to imagine how you personally would go about playing it is not enough. Much more important is to listen to how really good players go about playing it. Listen listen listen, until it seeps through your bones.
Rhychawr Catsmeat: I totally agree. 'Chordal counter melody' is exactly what a decent backer achieves.
feardearg: thank you for your very kind words. It only took me 25 years of blood (literally sometimes), sweat and tears.
Jon Kiparsky: I can see it now: your first driving lesson. You were a genius driver. You were born with the talent for taking corners and braking at roundabouts. You must have been steeped and immersed in the tradition of driving since early childhood. Your mastery at the wheel must be saluted SIr! No dots or words from the highway Code were needed for you! I imagine your first session was the same. You probably sat and knocked out a couple of tunes like a virtuoso.
I'm a backer at my local session. We're a typical bunch of session musicians I suppose, with plenty of variety when it comes to experience and competence. I thought that was the point of a session. There are also a fair number of regular punters who come to the pub to listen to the music every week, and yes Llig it makes us feel good when they give us a round of applause.
I know many of the tunes I accompany. If someone starts a tune I don't know, I stop and listen for a while. If I think I understand it I'll have a go. If I get it wrong I'll stop. Good backing is not the easy way of joining in. It's a skill in its own right and takes many years to get to even a basic level of competence. The guitar is not an easy instrument. Sure you can learn a few chords in a day but that's not the point. I've seen more beginners on the fiddle who blunder and scrape their way through mangled tunes (ruining it for everyone else), than I have seen beginner guitarists do. In fact it is often very difficult to hear the backers at all over the wall of jumbled sound that comes from over-eager melody executioners who are desparately trying to out-saw their fellow carpenters. I'm sure there are plenty of melody players who will take offence at all this, but imagine how us backers feel at the but end of your constant snipes and childish jokes at our expense. I know a bodhran player for example, who would knock spots of any of the (mostly) feeble out of tune/time scrapings that appear on Sound Lantern, often offered by the most vociferous, smug and self-styled 'experts' who claim to know 'the music'. I was going to say 'you know who you are' but on reflection I think you probably don't. I expect you're too busy laughing at someone who bothers to take time learning their instrument properly, rather than slavishly trying to copy someone else in the 'traditional' way.
I had a quick look at some pub sessions on Youtube. Surprise surprise! I found some videos from Sandy Bells in Edinburgh. I don't have much work to do at the moment and I was feeling a bit ruffled and pedantic, so I looked at 5 videos and did a quick count of a few things including:
Joel, I'm emailing your words to some folks. This is an excellent description of how to be nuanced and skillful with accompaniment. Fine playing on MySpace as well. If ever in the swamp you’d be welcomed here. Heck, we welcome everyone, which is how I get into situations like the above in the first place.
"I know many of the tunes I accompany. If someone starts a tune I don't know, I stop and listen for a while. If I think I understand it I'll have a go. If I get it wrong I'll stop. Good backing is not the easy way of joining in. It's a skill in its own right and takes many years to get to even a basic level of competence. The guitar is not an easy instrument."
ha ha Joel, much truth you speek. I'm in two of those you tube videos, one's not really that bad, the other is a truly awful sound. I can't remember either of them, but I'm possitive I'd be just about packing up. As for the rest, I probably already packed up - if I was there at all. Bell's can be pretty crap most nights. especially the weekend. But when it's good, when the bar is empty and when there is no one struggling, it's really really good.
By the way, If I can quote myself from futher up:
"I never differentiate between strummers and tune players. Everyone in the ensemble should have an equal place."
Actually, Joel, when I learned to drive, I was first put in a place where there were no other cars for me to endanger, and when I demonstrated some competence, I was allowed to drive in traffic, with an experienced driver beside me, ready to take control of the vehicle if I had any trouble - fortunately, that didn't happen. When I had some experience, I was - and still am - subject to correction if what I do causes a problem for others on the road.
When I started playing tunes, it was quite similar: first, I played with other players, a little more experienced than me, one on one. When I learned something about what I was doing, I was able to go to sessions, but the session was run by a fellow who knew how to put the brake on someone who lost control of their instrument before they could crash the tune. And even today, I like to know that if I or another cause trouble for the session as a whole, that someone, be they a "leader" or just another player, will try to resolve the problem, if necessary by taking someone off the road.
The analogy's yours, not mine, but I like it. The main difference is that we don't have traffic cops at a session, we can settle these things politely amongst ourselves.
Blimey. Thanks for those replies. When I clicked on the 'post' button I wondered if I had gone a bit too far!
Jon: on rereading my post I think I was getting a bit personal. Thanks for your measured reply and sorry if I caused any offence. I'm sure you're a great musician (and driver).
Speaking as an accompanist, one thing which aggravates me is melody players who have no sense of rhythm. They depend too much on me to keep the rhythm steady when it is supposed to be a team effort and we are supposed to be working together.
As an accompanist, I feel as if I am working both with and against (both pulling and pushing) the rhythm or rhythms of the melody players. If there is no "with" and just "against", that doesn't work and you end up with a muddled mess that only vaguely resembles the tune you are trying to play.
If you are going to play melody, you should start with a rhythm and a speed which you are comfortable with and can sustain all of the way through the tune you are trying to play instead of starting at one speed and slowing down or speeding up before you get to the end.
Joel McDermott, well put, and thankyou! Another member here observed that the worst offenses against The Music where she was, were not perpetrated by strummers and drummers, but by melody players.
Sometimes when I am picking up a tune on the fly it is very important to hear everything that is being played by the strongest melody player. That is self evident for anyone playing melody.
So this is just a friendly reminder for backers. Listen to the strongest player & allow them whatever room they need to get the tune out there. Thanks!
Can't say I'm very keen on the wall of sour sound either. Quarter-tone dissonances, however perfect in unison, are awful. Sorry, I'm still out of sorts from a recent experience with that version of "melody" playing.
All in all, that has to be the most dismal assessment of Irish Music, what with its not-so-subtle condemnation of the melody players; let alone what it says about drummers.
'Speaking as an accompanist, one thing which aggravates me is melody players who have no sense of rhythm. They depend too much on me to keep the rhythm steady when it is supposed to be a team effort and we are supposed to be working together.'
My brother is a drummer and percussionist. He's been playing for a long time and he is an exceptional player. He is well known (and in demand) for his 'musical' approach to the drums: he really listens to other musicians/singers and aims to lift and become an overall part of the music, adding to its subtlety and shifting moods. He is not interested in the wall of sound and never goes out to show off or to prove how good he is. He's interested in groove and foundations. He's played in loads of different bands, from blues and rock to Cuban style music. He's even brought a cajon (yes a cajon!) to our session a few times, which went down surprisingly well.
Anyway, my brother is often frustrated by other musicians who assume that it is his responsibility to keep time. The said musicians often become a bit lazy as a result of their over-reliance on his rhythm. In my opinion Fauxcelt is absolutely right. Any ensemble music should be a team effort and everybody should take responsibility for rhythm and groove.
Llig said 'I never differentiate between strummers and tune players. Everyone in the ensemble should have an equal place.' Encouraging words and very true. Like Fauxcelt I would add that 'everyone in the ensemble should take equal responsibility'.
When I am using my genuine imitation piano (a Roland EP-90 Digital Piano) at a session, I try to keep the volume turned down low enough so I can hear the melody players clearly.
I am trying to enhance the musical experience for everyone instead of ruining it or wrecking it.
I am not there to show off how clever or how talented I am. Instead, I am there at the session to participate in an activity (making music with other people) which I genuinely enjoy.
I do try to make it enjoyable for the other musicians although I am playing a non-traditional, atypical instrument.
If I did turn the volume all of the way up on my Digital Piano, it would drown out all of the other instruments--except for bagpipes.
No, I have never turned the volume all of the way up at a session but I did it once at home as a test to see just how loud it could be.
Never differentiate between strummers and tune players
Rhych you meant well with this bit,
"Please assume instrument proficiency is not an issue."
However, I am not sure that is always possible. Except in a strictly hypothetical sense. Turned out a little more interesting. Also, you have to jive that with Michael's spot on comment, "Everyone in the ensemble should have an equal place." I'll remember this one. Great discussion!
;)
Would you like some accompaniment?
Would you like some accompaniment?
a) Yes, please!
b) No, thanks.
c) Well, I guess, if you must, but will you kindly go fetch me a pint first and then sit outside the circle.
d) O.K., but only if you play bodhran or harp.
e) Flippin' heck!
Please assume instrument proficiency is not an issue. The musician (guitarist, CBOMist, keyboardist, etc) posing the question is competent and tasteful.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
f) Yes, but hold the mayo.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
As in the clinic, the county or the condiment?
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Take your pickle.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Competent and tasteful? Hoo-ha. Option A then.
...but what if I've never played with them before? How do I know that they are competent and tasteful? Do I have ESP? Super powers? If so, why I am working for a living and not fabulously wealthy? Are there already backers there? What if my hard-studying yet still slightly shaky buddy is there already backing with the instrument in question? Do I kick him aside to try out the newbie? Let two of the same accompanying instrument flail away, driving the flute player bananas because he can't make his gentle diddles heard over the combined din of two guitars, keyboards (on piano settings, please) bodhrans, or what have you?
So many questions! AAA! Too early, I need more coffee for such weighty philosophical questions.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Everyone gets a shot where we play. But they can get told to stop fairly promptly.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
They get shot, llig! That's getting a bit drastic. Isn't it?
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
oh, sorry, you mean you buy them a dram?
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Yes, I'd much rather play along with others as than by myself.
Doesn't matter if it's rhythym or other melody players.
Mary
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Antikhntr
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
I always believed that for most music, in playing together, the value of the whole is greater than the sum of the individual parts.
I enjoy solo work, or playing alone to a point. But I have always found that the intensity of the music feeds off of the work of many players.
Also, accompaniment most frequently helps improve the quality of the weaker players.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
...and then there's the time (last week) I was too nice so we ended up with 14 musicians, consisting of a box, harmonica, 2 fiddles, flute, hammered dulcimer...and 8 drummers and strummers, most of them with questionable etiquette. (read that as: all playing at the same time without listening to the racket they were making)
Ah-yup. Never again. Thankfully, this made me finally realize the value of being strict when trying to maintain session quality, or sanity, in this case.
Accompanists! Regulate thyself, or thy shall be regulated!
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
...and I nearly forgot, we could have had a concertina player too, though she became horrified at the scene and departed, which further increased my enlightenment. She has gladly accepted my apologies and agreed to assist me in the future with regulation of the whacking and strumming hordes. Thank goodness for dear friends.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
So would I like some accompaniment? Could I get a little less, perhaps?
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Ah yes, welcome indeed to the world of elightenment. Just say "no". It's so easy. Don't be swayed by embarasment. Don't be week. Welcome indeed to the glorious longterm satisfaction of the outcome of spoiling some eedjit's night. Look to the future and thou shall reep rewards. Be strong.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
" Don't be week."
No.
You're right, it was easy.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
SWFL with the snowbirds all showing up for the season you've got a good reason to remind the backers they need to remember that they are indeed backers, and while everyone is welcome, please take turns amongst yourselves or otherwise manage the din to the level of backing. It may not be clear to them exactly what that means at first but how about if we just stop playing in the middle of the tune? "Sorry, I couldn't hear the other melody players." Give me a sign when you are being artistic vs. frustrated and I'll act accordingly. Hopefully it won't take too many aborts to make the point. Oh and I think the idea of grouping the melody players together is a good one too.
That said, to get back to the topic which I read as "Do you like good backing." the answer from this flute player is 1). Emphasis on the "good." Mainly because when I take a breath or otherwise pause the music completely stops. Dead air. Which is OK, and can be used to great artistic effect, but it's nice to have notes ring out for a few milliseconds like they do on a fiddle or guitar so you can have a moment to lick your lips to keep them from sticking to your teeth or to have a swallow once in a while when in the middle of a mighty set of reels.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by cjp
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Re-reading what I just I suppose I should acknowledge that playing with other melody players also gives me a chance to pause while the music continues, so I'd say I could be happy just with melody instruments too. But for a "production" sound, and maybe that assumes some modern production values that have no place in ITM, some backing by a guitar and/or bodhran is a good thing for the modern (punter?) listener. But if we're talking production here, the sound engineer has that volume slider to make sure it's really backing.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by cjp
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Thank you Mr. Llig. You are my backbone inspiration.
...and Mr. cjp's flutery is a necessary component of my weekly musical joy. He's also a bit more forceful than I, so I'm sure he can help me keep the musical peace.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
I have to agree with Zippydw. As someone still in the learning stages of this music, I've recently had the good fortune to play with someone lightyears ahead of me in talent, who plays backup when not on the fiddle. He makes the music really exciting and I try to rise to the occasion. The crowd in the pub seems to like it.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by boxielady
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
OH NO!!!
Not that old ''performance" chestnut again.
"It's OK 'cause the punters like it"
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Irish music without the bodhran is like George Bush without Dick Cheney.
Nothing.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Asking the question shows a degree of awareness and courtesy that deserves recognition.
Things can be "managed" even if the answer is "no thanks, not this one."
There's a very competent multi-intrumentalist around the Oxford area (some may know who I mean) who will quite often start a set with something quite obscure, which he gets to play solo, then he moves on into something more familiar which brings everyone in.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Yes, absolutely, within reason. But melody players should dominate, even locally; I recall a medium-sized session where I was sandwiched between a guitarist and a bouzouki player who was playing chords, and I couldn't hear any melody players besides myself. Not good. Things went a lot better when I moved a few seats away, but the experiece did make me wonder how orchestra players manage, stuck as they are with their own kind.
Mind you, the backers I play with tend to be responsible enough to realize that, say, three good guitarists backing does not sound three times as good as one good guitarist.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
I'm slowly transforming into one of those grumpy pipers who thinks the ideal session may.... just may, be a group of melody players with no backing.
That said, I do like and appreciate tasteful strummers and drummers but am growing less tolerant of the "wall of sound" you get when you have a giant herd of backers who don't listen to each other (or anyone else). Was at a session a couple months ago with about four or five melody players and seven or eight strummers and drummers, only one or two of which had a clue. Not good. A fiddle player, who is a lovely fiddler player, started a set and I could not hear her through the racket between her and me. I bailed after that and went home.
Another time there was a beginner guitarist sitting next to me who was playing really loudly but kind of in the right key. Until I played the Virginia Reel, which always seems to throw backers who don't know it. He was playing something odd and I stopped mid-tune and said, "You're in the wrong key." He said, "What key is it?" I answered, "Uhh.... E dorian/D-ish. I don't know." I resumed the tune, he resumed playing, faffing around trying to find he key. Argh.
Good backers bring out something in the music. Melody players-only brings out something else. I like both but the melody-players-only always sounds really cool, possibly because it is somewhat of a novelty at sessions as it doesn't happen that often.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
'Irish music without the bodhran is like George Bush without Dick Cheney.'
Yeah so what you're saying is that the bodhran is like Dick Cheney, a belligerent instrument of terror.............
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by The Tune Composer
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
(Asked by pretty girl with jangle-box...)
"yeah, sit on my knee, twangle away...."
(Asked by ordinary bloke with jangle-box...)
"S*d off !"
I cannot remember ever having said these.
But there are a lot of things I cannot remember.
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
This is not really answering the topic but just something I wanted to share
Yesterday my husband (an ex-rock-guitarist before I met him) got his guitar out after 15 years of me begging him to accompany my flute (silver boehm). We played a bit of Beatles stuff and it sounded pretty cool - then I produced my wooden whistle and launched into some Irish. Wow did we make some great music!
Was it "traditional?" - no I guess not, but it really brought my whistle to life. It brought out something in my playing - sort of free and joyful.
I guess it would be the same with another melody instrument but for someone who normally plays alone (no sessions near) it was so much fun.
Taminka
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Taminka
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Accompanists throw me off. I end up listening to the accompaniment as though it were a second melody player (which is what I'm accustomed to and comfortable with), and then I got tossed off my own tune and I start trying to follow the accompaniment instead. It's weird >_>
--DtM
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Dan the Man
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
'and then I got tossed off my own tune and I start trying to follow the accompaniment instead. It's weird'
Don't forget that there are plenty of melody players tossing off their tunes with no regard for rhythm, tuning, or their fellow melody players, let alone the backers. I've seen and heard it all too many times in sessions: the out-of-tune fiddle players battling away in the competition to outscrape their neighbours with their jerky sawing and tune butchery. Apparently this is perfectly OK if you learnt from another butcher who also has no respect for technique or appreciation for the violin (perhaps the most perfect of instruments in the right hands). As long as you learn in a 'traditional' way from another person you can call it 'the music' even if you can't play a note in time or in tune. This then gives you an automatic right to criticise, deride and make cheap jokes about anyone who plays 'backing' on another instrument that only appeared thirty years into the fifty years of 'tradition'.
This applies equally to other melody players. You can strangle the pipes like a dying cat, or parp through an out of tune whistle that sounds like an explosion in a plastic recorder factory, but it doesn't matter as long as you can claim to have learnt in a 'traditional' way. This is what gives modern folk music a bad name. Quality is not important. Only tradition matters.
Backing has an important place in this music. Do you any of you have a right to tell someone to stop? Is it your session? Perhaps you own the pub? I wish I could tell the out-of-tune melody players to 'take turns amongst themselves'. I wish I had the courage to tell the 'herd' of scrapers, tooters, parpers and melodic murderers that their 'wall of sound' is offensive and disgraceful to the beauty of this music. I wish I had the courage to 'just say no'.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Well, there's always the robot option:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/395195_msftsong08.html
(where's the smiley for an evil snicker?)
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Now, now. Everyone knows that the ideal session is a mandola and a bouzouki (and a couple of chaps named Irvine and Lunny sitting behind 'em).
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Don't forget Christy Moore on the bodhran!
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
How does Christy tune his bodhran, anyway?
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Possibly to Ed Boyd's guitar?
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
I never differentiate between strummers and tune players. Everyone in the ensemble should have an equal place. Crap strummers or tune players get equal treatment
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
But how do you dish out that treatment in a session you didn't start, a pub you didn't build and a tradition that has no agreed rules?
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
If you are the crap tune player you learn where you can play and where you can't.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
When I'm driving behind a learner driver I always slow down and give them room for manoeuvre. I don't blast my horn or get impatient. I don't wind my window down and shout at them. I don't tell them which roads they can drive on. I didn't write the Highway Code. Perhaps you did.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
(A) Anytime, anywhere...
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Leendah
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Me? I'm usually the crap tune player who chooses sessions very tactfully. Some are friendly for learners, some are not, others to varying degrees. It's just the way of it. Is it a situation that I am happy with all the time; no, usually not (as anyone who knows me can attest), but that's how sessions are. There is no overall "Highway Code" one way or another but rather decisions you have to make on a session-by-session basis. Will I add anything if I play here (usually not). In that case, will I be detrimental (depends).
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
I got an agreed rule. The tune should be more prominent than the noodles, the strum and the whack. Why should anyone suffer that, for any reason?
Actually, that isn't a rule, it's just common sense.
Another piece of common sense would be for the alpha to deal with these problems, if the group can not, or soon there won't BE a session for anyone, as they'll all get sick of it and split. "Who needs this nonsense? I'm out."
So, screw egalitarianism resulting in total crap. I'm going for decency, and will enforce it if people can't do it themselves. It's not a public road, it's a private track on someone's property, despite the quaint title of 'public house', and that someone asked me to start the session.
No idea why I took that so personally, Joel, my apologies. No harm meant.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Joel, this isn't kindergarten. If someone comes in and p*sses in the punchbowl, you can ask them please to stop. You can be nice about it, in fact you should, but in the end either the miserable sod who can't play will leave, or someone you enjoy playing with will. Which do you prefer?
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Backing seems to be the easy way to join in. Therefore you get folks who won't dedicate the blood sweat and tears that it takes to learn the melody. Most don't even take the time to learn acceptable chords or rythmn patterns to a tune. These people think they can sit down and, if you tell them the key, they can do a fine job. They never heard the tune. They don't even give the tune a listening to in order find out how it goes. If you ask them what type (jig, reel) of tune it is, they can't tell you. When you ask them to start a tune, they either can't because they don't know specific tunes or they just start strumming wildly a "d" chord and everyone else is suppose to know what it is!!
And Jon is right. These people will drive tune players away.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by feardearg
Driving idiots
Idiot learning drivers shouldn't be tolerated, either. If they are dangerous, rude or don't bother learning the laws of the road, they should be kicked off the road.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by feardearg
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Well, idiot *learning* drivers are allowed on the road, under certain strict conditions.
Perhaps idiot learning players should be allowed to attend sessions if accompanied by a session player of a certain number of years' experience, and if wearing a big hat with "STUDENT GUITARIST" in bright red letters? (or other instrument, replace as necessary. the hat, I guess, isn't needed for some - the bodhran gives it away...)
You'll ask, how do you know who's the student? Well, that's easy, they're the ones who give themselves away - say, calling a tune a song, or something....
(I can't get around the image of a bodhran with a chicken brake!)
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Joel McDermott! You had me going, but then I went to your myspace page (http://www.myspace.com/joelmcdermottmusic) . Very, very nice. I was overwhelmed.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by feardearg
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
To be honest... I rarely take my guitar to a session these days as one guitar player is usually enough. (And there is always more than one) It can really detract from the rhythm that the session is trying to portray.
I much prefrer to play fiddle at a session. But sometimes will take out the octave mando where i can play both rhythm/melody sometimes.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by davydd
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
This polarisation of rhythm and melody really feckin annoys me. Like there's no rhythm IN the melody.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Right, but unfortunately its quite possible to play the 'notes of the tune' but with no rhythm, or very poor rhythm. no swing, lift or drive. These factors ,drive etc, all stem from a mastery of rhythm, or lack of it.
In fact, the general reaction is great.
I often take my guitar to sessions, there are so many fiddlers around here and few guitarists. I've yet to receive 'the look'.
I like to run my own sessions with the fiddle, so I can play my favorite tunes in odd keys or whatever I like. All welcome as long the ground rules are understood.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
But, nicholas, how do you know there are things you can't remember?
Max
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by pfft
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
"the 'notes of the tune' but with no rhythm". I don't play with such people.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Hey Llig,,, I am a rhythm player. Which ever instrument i choose to play on. (Melody, Backing) It's a by-product of my dancing days.
I guess what I meant to say was "whether I was playing backing or Melody". Damn the written english language and it's different ways of interpreting it!
I agree with you... there IS Rhythm in the melody... and a good backer will play along with that.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by davydd
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
"You have a lovely style. It's reminiscent of a midi file."
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
good
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
I'm the one who started this thread, and I must say it has been very helpful to me.
I picked up the octave mandolin last November and immediately became fascinated with ITM. The obvious 'easiest' thing for me to do was to learn chords and focus on backing. However, after doing this for a couple of weeks I realised that not only was this unsatisfying, I was not making much progress learning accompaniment by ear, nor was I making progress remembering the tunes that I could figure out. I changed course and began learning the melody, and the flower opened up. I started to 'get it' rhythmically, and began to conceptualise backing in a different way. Listening to Donal and Andy (and many others of couse e.g. Alec Finn) helped, of course.
I just had my first formal lesson yesterday with a fiddler who also plays mandolin. He began straight away to put me to rights on my rhythm. He is very much of the opinion that before I even begin to think about backing a tune, I have the melody down cold. My goal in backing is to conceptualise it more as 'chordal counter-melody', rather than 'rhythm strumming' on all but the fastest tunes. this is what I hear Donal, Alec, et al. doing.
Also, thanks for such a vigorous response one of my first few attempts at starting a discussion.
Cheers!
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Yep, it seems that in just a couple of months you have found out for your self the second most important mantra that should without fail be adhered to. Namely: Learn the tunes.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
"What's the first?" He asked, naively.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
I thought you might work it out for yourself
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Sorry, that's a bit cruel. It's "Listen listen listen"
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
The funny thing is, that those are often synonymous for me.
My wife and I were just discussing this issue yesterday. For my whole life, it seems, whenever I listen to any music that grabs me, I immediately begin to 'learn the tune.' This doesn't mean that I try to learn how to play the music, necessarily, just that I begin to imagine how I would go about playing it. I really have a difficult time listening to music purely for pleasure. It is not impossible, just difficult.
It is either a blessing or a curse. Sometimes both. So, llig, I guess that means my personal musical mantra is 'listen and learn'.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Rhychawr Catsmeat
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Yeah, listen and learn is pretty good. But with this music especially, trying to imagine how you personally would go about playing it is not enough. Much more important is to listen to how really good players go about playing it. Listen listen listen, until it seeps through your bones.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Rhychawr Catsmeat: I totally agree. 'Chordal counter melody' is exactly what a decent backer achieves.
feardearg: thank you for your very kind words. It only took me 25 years of blood (literally sometimes), sweat and tears.
Jon Kiparsky: I can see it now: your first driving lesson. You were a genius driver. You were born with the talent for taking corners and braking at roundabouts. You must have been steeped and immersed in the tradition of driving since early childhood. Your mastery at the wheel must be saluted SIr! No dots or words from the highway Code were needed for you! I imagine your first session was the same. You probably sat and knocked out a couple of tunes like a virtuoso.
I'm a backer at my local session. We're a typical bunch of session musicians I suppose, with plenty of variety when it comes to experience and competence. I thought that was the point of a session. There are also a fair number of regular punters who come to the pub to listen to the music every week, and yes Llig it makes us feel good when they give us a round of applause.
I know many of the tunes I accompany. If someone starts a tune I don't know, I stop and listen for a while. If I think I understand it I'll have a go. If I get it wrong I'll stop. Good backing is not the easy way of joining in. It's a skill in its own right and takes many years to get to even a basic level of competence. The guitar is not an easy instrument. Sure you can learn a few chords in a day but that's not the point. I've seen more beginners on the fiddle who blunder and scrape their way through mangled tunes (ruining it for everyone else), than I have seen beginner guitarists do. In fact it is often very difficult to hear the backers at all over the wall of jumbled sound that comes from over-eager melody executioners who are desparately trying to out-saw their fellow carpenters. I'm sure there are plenty of melody players who will take offence at all this, but imagine how us backers feel at the but end of your constant snipes and childish jokes at our expense. I know a bodhran player for example, who would knock spots of any of the (mostly) feeble out of tune/time scrapings that appear on Sound Lantern, often offered by the most vociferous, smug and self-styled 'experts' who claim to know 'the music'. I was going to say 'you know who you are' but on reflection I think you probably don't. I expect you're too busy laughing at someone who bothers to take time learning their instrument properly, rather than slavishly trying to copy someone else in the 'traditional' way.
I had a quick look at some pub sessions on Youtube. Surprise surprise! I found some videos from Sandy Bells in Edinburgh. I don't have much work to do at the moment and I was feeling a bit ruffled and pedantic, so I looked at 5 videos and did a quick count of a few things including:
Fiddle players: 8
Guitarists: 9
Bodhran players: 3
Bouzouki players: 3
Flute players: 4
Banjo players: 2
Double Bass (!) players: 1
PA players: 2
Whistle players: 2
Harmonica players: 1
Singers: 1
Wall of sound; constant
Eye contact: 0
Smiling: 0
Self styled folk police telling the backers to stop: 0
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Try listening to Alec Finn. Him the bestest.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Joel, I'm emailing your words to some folks. This is an excellent description of how to be nuanced and skillful with accompaniment. Fine playing on MySpace as well. If ever in the swamp you’d be welcomed here. Heck, we welcome everyone, which is how I get into situations like the above in the first place.
"I know many of the tunes I accompany. If someone starts a tune I don't know, I stop and listen for a while. If I think I understand it I'll have a go. If I get it wrong I'll stop. Good backing is not the easy way of joining in. It's a skill in its own right and takes many years to get to even a basic level of competence. The guitar is not an easy instrument."
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
ha ha Joel, much truth you speek. I'm in two of those you tube videos, one's not really that bad, the other is a truly awful sound. I can't remember either of them, but I'm possitive I'd be just about packing up. As for the rest, I probably already packed up - if I was there at all. Bell's can be pretty crap most nights. especially the weekend. But when it's good, when the bar is empty and when there is no one struggling, it's really really good.
By the way, If I can quote myself from futher up:
"I never differentiate between strummers and tune players. Everyone in the ensemble should have an equal place."
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Actually, Joel, when I learned to drive, I was first put in a place where there were no other cars for me to endanger, and when I demonstrated some competence, I was allowed to drive in traffic, with an experienced driver beside me, ready to take control of the vehicle if I had any trouble - fortunately, that didn't happen. When I had some experience, I was - and still am - subject to correction if what I do causes a problem for others on the road.
When I started playing tunes, it was quite similar: first, I played with other players, a little more experienced than me, one on one. When I learned something about what I was doing, I was able to go to sessions, but the session was run by a fellow who knew how to put the brake on someone who lost control of their instrument before they could crash the tune. And even today, I like to know that if I or another cause trouble for the session as a whole, that someone, be they a "leader" or just another player, will try to resolve the problem, if necessary by taking someone off the road.
The analogy's yours, not mine, but I like it. The main difference is that we don't have traffic cops at a session, we can settle these things politely amongst ourselves.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Blimey. Thanks for those replies. When I clicked on the 'post' button I wondered if I had gone a bit too far!
Jon: on rereading my post I think I was getting a bit personal. Thanks for your measured reply and sorry if I caused any offence. I'm sure you're a great musician (and driver).
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Speaking as an accompanist, one thing which aggravates me is melody players who have no sense of rhythm. They depend too much on me to keep the rhythm steady when it is supposed to be a team effort and we are supposed to be working together.
As an accompanist, I feel as if I am working both with and against (both pulling and pushing) the rhythm or rhythms of the melody players. If there is no "with" and just "against", that doesn't work and you end up with a muddled mess that only vaguely resembles the tune you are trying to play.
If you are going to play melody, you should start with a rhythm and a speed which you are comfortable with and can sustain all of the way through the tune you are trying to play instead of starting at one speed and slowing down or speeding up before you get to the end.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Joel McDermott, well put, and thankyou! Another member here observed that the worst offenses against The Music where she was, were not perpetrated by strummers and drummers, but by melody players.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Sometimes when I am picking up a tune on the fly it is very important to hear everything that is being played by the strongest melody player. That is self evident for anyone playing melody.
So this is just a friendly reminder for backers. Listen to the strongest player & allow them whatever room they need to get the tune out there. Thanks!
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Can't say I'm very keen on the wall of sour sound either. Quarter-tone dissonances, however perfect in unison, are awful. Sorry, I'm still out of sorts from a recent experience with that version of "melody" playing.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
'Irish music without the bodhran is like George Bush without Dick Cheney.'
Yeah so what you're saying is that the bodhran is like Dick Cheney, a belligerent instrument of terror.............
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Bring back Tigh Hughes!
Exactly. With loads of POWER which can be abused.
# Posted on January 9th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
All in all, that has to be the most dismal assessment of Irish Music, what with its not-so-subtle condemnation of the melody players; let alone what it says about drummers.
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
what sort of a gimp discussion is this???
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by CFlood
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
This post from Fauxcelt is really important:
'Speaking as an accompanist, one thing which aggravates me is melody players who have no sense of rhythm. They depend too much on me to keep the rhythm steady when it is supposed to be a team effort and we are supposed to be working together.'
My brother is a drummer and percussionist. He's been playing for a long time and he is an exceptional player. He is well known (and in demand) for his 'musical' approach to the drums: he really listens to other musicians/singers and aims to lift and become an overall part of the music, adding to its subtlety and shifting moods. He is not interested in the wall of sound and never goes out to show off or to prove how good he is. He's interested in groove and foundations. He's played in loads of different bands, from blues and rock to Cuban style music. He's even brought a cajon (yes a cajon!) to our session a few times, which went down surprisingly well.
Anyway, my brother is often frustrated by other musicians who assume that it is his responsibility to keep time. The said musicians often become a bit lazy as a result of their over-reliance on his rhythm. In my opinion Fauxcelt is absolutely right. Any ensemble music should be a team effort and everybody should take responsibility for rhythm and groove.
Llig said 'I never differentiate between strummers and tune players. Everyone in the ensemble should have an equal place.' Encouraging words and very true. Like Fauxcelt I would add that 'everyone in the ensemble should take equal responsibility'.
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
"He's even brought a cajon (yes a cajon!) to our session a few times, which went down surprisingly well."
...and that takes cajones, doesn't it?
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
You bet. Cajones of steel, especially as you have to sit on the thing while it's thumping and rattling underneath you!
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
When I am using my genuine imitation piano (a Roland EP-90 Digital Piano) at a session, I try to keep the volume turned down low enough so I can hear the melody players clearly.
I am trying to enhance the musical experience for everyone instead of ruining it or wrecking it.
I am not there to show off how clever or how talented I am. Instead, I am there at the session to participate in an activity (making music with other people) which I genuinely enjoy.
I do try to make it enjoyable for the other musicians although I am playing a non-traditional, atypical instrument.
If I did turn the volume all of the way up on my Digital Piano, it would drown out all of the other instruments--except for bagpipes.
No, I have never turned the volume all of the way up at a session but I did it once at home as a test to see just how loud it could be.
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by fauxcelt
Never differentiate between strummers and tune players
Rhych you meant well with this bit,
"Please assume instrument proficiency is not an issue."
However, I am not sure that is always possible. Except in a strictly hypothetical sense. Turned out a little more interesting. Also, you have to jive that with Michael's spot on comment, "Everyone in the ensemble should have an equal place." I'll remember this one. Great discussion!
;)
# Posted on January 10th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Would you like some accompaniment?
Joel - eye contact? smiling? at sessions?! whatever next....!! :0 ;)
Your Myspace playing is lovely (and I've just realised we've played together in the past, I'll mail).
# Posted on January 11th 2009 by suesinger