I recently acquired a Goodtime 19-Fret Special Tenor and I'm going to learn to play it. I already play the concertina to a decent standard so hopefully the knowledge I have of tunes etc will help me on my way.
But Im 26 now so this will probably require a lot more effort than when I learned the box a long time ago.
I will probably get a few lessons at some stage but I want to get as far as a I can on my own. From learning the box I learned the painful lesson that starting with the wrong technique can be a disaster and can lead to a lot of wasted time.
I have seen some threads on this website advising people on ways to learn in the past and they have provided good info. I have also discoivered Mike Keyes website which has been a great resource.
But I really wanted to nail down the 4 finger vs 3 finger approach and the pros and cons of each. Any opinions you have on this would be great. I am trying to get a feel for what % of people use each method?
Also, I am based on the Northside of Dublin and I'll be looking for lessons at some stage. Does anyone know of somebody suitable in my area?
In my opinion, is a good thing being comfortable with both methods.. I use 4 fingers with my bouzouki, and 3 fingers with my short scale tenor, but sometimes switch to 4 fingers if the tune I'm playing asks for it, like Dmin tunes.
Anyway, I think that the important hand is the other one.
Regarding 3 v 4 finger approach, I would agree with Ramiro. I don't think that there is any hard-and-fast rule - it very much depends on the particular tune.
In particular, the fourth finger seems to come into its own in tunes where you have to briefly leap up away from the first position in order to play a high "B" on the "E" string.
Probably even more important as you are using a long-scale tenor, where a slightly greater stretch is needed.
If you've never played any kind of fretted instrument before, you may well find that some tunes that lend themsleves to playing the box are more difficult to play well on the TB, and that the converse is true as well.
Beacuse of the similar tuning, most "fiddle" tunes lend themselves to the Irish tenor. The Kerry polkas are good ones to start with, as they are easy to play and also can be given a good "lift" with this particular instrument.
Do you really need to take formal lessons? Much can be learned using a combination of self-tution, attending workshops at festivals and by discussing technique with experienced players.
Enda Scahill has a new tutorial available through his website that may be a good investment. I haven't received mine yet (hopefully this week!), but Mike Keyes spoke highly of it.
As for 3 vs 4 finger, I would think that 4-finger would be easier with 19 frets due to the stretch needed. I use 3-finger myself, but that's because I started learning on mandolin, and my transition was to a 17 fret banjo .
I have been learning on a 19 fret banjo for only three months, and researched this site and any other information around about the 3 v 4 finger issue as well, and communicated with Mike Keyes about it as well.
What I am finding is that using the four finger approach, yes, the fingers sit more naturally with minimal if any movement, almost directly above the notes you want to play, which is great, and which, I think is the point Mike Keyes makes.
It seems to work really well. At first, the little finger was predictable weak, but as Mike Keyes says, I think, that quickly improved.
What I still notice though is that the third finger is just that much stronger and seems to make a difference to the flow of the tune or something which I can't quite put my finger on yet (pun intended, I suppose). Something about sounding more decisive I think, but that could be totally subjective.
Trying out the three finger approach I think I notice that the reaction is quicker, but I do a bit more moving around the neck and more chance of making a mistake, but that might improve with practice too probably, although at this stage it prompts me to look at the fretboard which I'd rather not get into the habit of doing.
Went to a masterclass at a festival in November and took particular note of what the tutor was doing in this regard - turned out he alternated between the two methods, I guess depending on what made more sense in the tune. It seemed to be an unconscious adjustment he made as well, which I found encouraging.
At this stage, I'm still using the four finger mode, but I do notice that the three finger mode is likely to catch up in the favorite stakes. Altogether a bit like a horse race eh.
Hope that isn't too confusing, I'm confused enough for all of us.
Yes Enda's book is great. It's a very methodical approach to the banjo. It surprised me though that he indicates three finger style on his fingering chart. It's what I use, having come from fiddle and mandolin. That was fine on my 17 fret but more difficult on the 19 fret I just got. I do find that 4 finger style is creeping in for certain tunes--particularly tunes where I'd like to keep the first finger down and then play the fifth fret (Drowsy Maggie for example).
If I were starting banjo fresh without fiddle and mandolin experience, I probably would've gone with four finger style.
I use 4 fingers and am not going to change.I got Enda Scahills book and 2 CDs and would advise you to get it and go slowly through it step by step.Its very hard to change the habits of a lifetime so get some one on one lessons ASAP no book can beat real lessons
As all of you know, I am an advocate of the four finger system and my reasons are both due to teachers (Gerry O'Connor), practice and logic, but if you read my review of Enda Scahill's tutor, you will see that left hand technique it is a minor point (but important) overall.
I can play the tenor banjo both ways, I have been a mandolin player for four decades now, but I am more comfortable with the four finger style because I deliberately decided to use it in order to separate my mandolin style from my banjo style. If you have a teacher who advocates the three finger style, go with it. Right hand technique is much more important.
There are times when the tune dictates which left hand style is used as has been pointed out above. The important thing to remember is that as a beginner you have to establish a good basic technique before you can develop a style. The best banjo players have distinctive styles and they vary technique to fit their style, not the other way around. Just yesterday, on the banjohangout, the question of DUD DUD vs DUD UDU in jigs was discussed. I am an advocate of the former but use the latter a lot just because my technical abilities are not so good as to be able to play DUD DUD all the time, especially at speed. Enda Scahill made the point that either technique could be used depending on how lyrical you wanted to make the jig. I realized at that point that strict adherence to the "rules" made it hard to play a distinctive style at times.
But in the beginning you have to establish a basic technique, one that comes automatically and naturally, before you can explore the more sophisticated aspects of the instrument. This is true of any performance method in any field. If you don't have that base, you can't advance without reaching some dead end due to the lack of basic technique. Once you have a base to work from, you can do almost anything you can think of including "breaking the rules."
Three vs. four finger technique is not a mutually exclusive proposition but you have to have some perspective before you go from one to the other. This way you don't run into cognitive dissonance problems; instead you are just using variations of your natural technique.
I'll second (or third, as the case may be) the idea that there is no hard and fast rule. I can use both 3 and 4 fingering styles. I started on bouzouki, and learned 4 finger style first, but switched to 3 finger style on the banjo (both short and long scale).
I went through a period of time where I would switch between the two in any given tune, and used to practice switching back and forth to the point where I could do it easily. What this taught me was the ability to think more about the notes, and less about the fingers, which can help get past the "kinesthetic learning" that we all start out with, where you just remember where your fingers go next. (It's a useful stage in the learning process, but you ultimately need to make the connection between where the fingers go, and what notes are coming out, so that you can play a tune, instead of playing a sequence of fingerings...)
Having said all this, I would point out that I use 3 finger style almost exclusively now, even on long scale bouzouki. I do have rather large hands, but having a proper left hand placement is key, where movement up and down the neck is relaxed, and anchored with the thumb on the back of the neck. This allows even people with small hands to reach things comfortably in the 3 finger style.
Since you already play an instrument, you probably already know the mantra, but *relaxation is key*. If your hand hurts at any point in time, whether it be from stretching to reach the B, sore finger tips from pressing on the strings too hard, or tensing up from trying to play faster than you can, then you need to work on relaxing. If you watch an experienced player, the amount of energy that they expend while playing is almost none, and it looks effortless.
I also picked up Enda's tutor, and he does go into the minutiae of things, from how to hold the pick, to how to position both the instrument and your hands. It would have been useful to me when I was first starting for sure! But part of the fun of learning to play an instrument is the journey of discovery along the way
A very interesting comment made by the Reverend, regarding "kinesthetic" learning - i.e. playing by remembering a sequence of notes, as opposed to remembering the individual notes that need to be played.
I use my own terminology to describe these two methods: the first method I call "vector" playing and the the second method I call "bitmap" playing!
To expand on what the Reverend has already stated, I would add that a mastery of the second method is essential should you at any time wish to play from sheet music.
However, the first ("vector") method seems to carry an advantage in circumstances where you are trying to pick up a tune by ear, e.g. at a pub session!
I've been playing just over 2 years. I started with 4 finger but moved on to 3 finger. I haven't got the longest fingers in the world, and do struggle at times with my 19 fret, and do find the 17 fret easier. I'm not sure that I should have changed, but most videos of accomplished T B players seem to use 3 finger. So I guess it's just a case of sticking with it. I can't have the shortest fingers in T B circles? Don't concentrate on left hand more than the right. Right hand technique is very important.
I started on banjo a little over a yr ago and I got Gerry O's beginner DVD with it. He used 4 finger technique in the video so that's what I started with. I use the same fingering on mandolin as well.
I disagree with gile in that most players I see (youtube) use four fingers.
I think the reverend makes a great point about knowing what note need to be played next as opposed to what finger.
I'm just getting to that stage now where my ears are taking control of where I need to put my fingers and not my memory of tab.
This guy does it well in this tune, going from pinky to ring finger for the fifth fret.
Anyway. whatever fingering route you decide, I'd recommend you practice scales and getting used to moving your fingers from string to string and fret to fret. And various cross picking exercises for the right hand.
Lots of good advice already given above.
I learned the 3 finger Fiddle/Mandolin fingering as a kid. I then taught a girl the 4 finger method when I was about 16 so that I could learn it too and practice using it (cheeky perhaps!)
Now I use a combination of both as has been said above. I realise that for someone learning for the first time it's important to pick a method and stick with it for the time being.
The big advantage that the 4 finger method has that I can see, is that for a beginner starting off it forces you to use your little finger and make it stronger. 24 years of playing and mine is still on the weak side! The obvious downside is that a weak little finger can make the initial stages of learning banjo an additional burden.
The 3 finger method is easy to learn and for adults, the stretch shouldn't be a big problem.
Earlier in this post, mikeyes was discussing two picking methods for playing jigs:
DUD DUD
versus
DUD UDU
He concluded that DUD DUD was the superior method, albeit a little more difficult.
Somewhat later, a thought occurred to me. I'm told that DUD UDU is the default bowing method for jigs on the fiddle, and also the the default method with the tipper on the bodhran. This being the case, should it also be the default method on the tenor banjo?
And then another thought occurred to me. What method do I use? Shock horror - I didn't even know! I actually had to get my tenor banjo out of its case and play half-a-dozen jigs to find out. I then discovered that I always used the DUD DUD method - never the other way. Am I using the superior method, as mikeyes suggests? If so, it's a matter of pure luck, as although I've been playing for quite a few years, I've never had a lesson, or even read a tutorial.
I satarted playing jigs DUD UDU, and then made the effort to change to DUD DUD. My rythm improved substantially, and it wasn't that hard, just a bit of work.
And I don't think that DUD UDU is the default bowing method for jigs on the fiddle. I'm not a fiddler myself, but this topic has been discussed here before.
Ramiro - glad to know that I'm not the only one using DUD DUD for jigs on tenor banjo!
Regarding the fiddle, I've taken up this instrument only just recently. I have been taken some lessons, and I'm lucky to have one of the best fiddlers in England as my teacher. He is RCM Grade 8 qualifed, and was young musician of the year at Sidmouth a couple of years back.
It was he who advised me that DUD UDU was the "default" method of bowing for jigs, so that was the method that I should be using initially.
I have never learned "Irish Tenor Banjo" technique, but do enjoy playing ITM tunes on that instrument.
Left-hand: 4-fingers (I have small hands). Avoid barres. g-a-b on 1st string played with fingers 1-2-4. I do try to add some left-hand ornamentation, with varying degree of success.
Right-hand: Strict alternate picking where possible (slip-jigs become a little more tricky). Whilst DUD DUD encourages good rhythm for jigs, it is equally possible to learn good rhythm using alternate picking (try repeating DUD on 4th string, UDU on 1st string). Triplets, of course, ruin everything which is why learning a comprehensive picking method would be of benefit.
Ramiro - again, without wishing to hijack this thread, the default method of jig bowing was given to me on the basis of being a beginner, and on that basis I'm sure that it was sound advice. Naturally, as you became more experenced you would be varying this - to suit particular tunes or various national or regional playing styles.
Incidently, another piece of basic advice that I was given was to avoid slurring the bow when crossing strings.
I was originally a guitar player, (including some classical training) and used four fingers. Taking up mandolin, three fingers seemed the natural order. When I got into tenor banjo, I was not happy with the results, and concentrated on the four finger approach, including sometimes painful development of the little finger strength.
I have no idea when I use downstroke or upstroke, except sometimes when something is not working out, I will stop and analyze what I am doing. Having purchased Enda Scahill's book, I intend to follow the exercises to discover the errors of my ways.
Thank you all for your very helpful comments.
I think for now I will proceed with the 4 finger method to have as a "learning base". Although, with time I will practice the 3 finger method and keep an open mind about shifting between both techniques. The challenge of moving between different fingering techniques is something very apparent to concertina playing so at least I know the extent of the challenge ahead - all part of the enjoyment
Also, in the relation to right hand technique for jog playing, the DUD DUD vs DUD UDU comments have been very useful.
The DUD UDU method would probably be most natural but I can understand how DUD DUD adds a bit more "punch" to the rhythm and hence I will practice this method.
I bought GOC's DVD tutorial and I've ordered Enda's tutorial also - hopefully will give me enough perspectives to get me started anyway.
I think I’m making decent progress. Spending countless hours moving up and down the scales (4 finger) and I've now moved on to butchering the lilting banshee (x ornamentation of course), as you do. Haven’t tackled the high B yet.
Having great fun with it.
Anyway, cheers again for all the input.
I'm sure I'll be back on requesting help on ornamentation at some stage.
Learning Banjo - Advice
Learning Banjo - Advice
Hi All,
I recently acquired a Goodtime 19-Fret Special Tenor and I'm going to learn to play it. I already play the concertina to a decent standard so hopefully the knowledge I have of tunes etc will help me on my way.
But Im 26 now so this will probably require a lot more effort than when I learned the box a long time ago.
I will probably get a few lessons at some stage but I want to get as far as a I can on my own. From learning the box I learned the painful lesson that starting with the wrong technique can be a disaster and can lead to a lot of wasted time.
I have seen some threads on this website advising people on ways to learn in the past and they have provided good info. I have also discoivered Mike Keyes website which has been a great resource.
But I really wanted to nail down the 4 finger vs 3 finger approach and the pros and cons of each. Any opinions you have on this would be great. I am trying to get a feel for what % of people use each method?
Also, I am based on the Northside of Dublin and I'll be looking for lessons at some stage. Does anyone know of somebody suitable in my area?
Cheers for your help in advance.
Cathal
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by CathalC
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
In my opinion, is a good thing being comfortable with both methods.. I use 4 fingers with my bouzouki, and 3 fingers with my short scale tenor, but sometimes switch to 4 fingers if the tune I'm playing asks for it, like Dmin tunes.
Anyway, I think that the important hand is the other one.
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
Cathal -
Regarding 3 v 4 finger approach, I would agree with Ramiro. I don't think that there is any hard-and-fast rule - it very much depends on the particular tune.
In particular, the fourth finger seems to come into its own in tunes where you have to briefly leap up away from the first position in order to play a high "B" on the "E" string.
Probably even more important as you are using a long-scale tenor, where a slightly greater stretch is needed.
If you've never played any kind of fretted instrument before, you may well find that some tunes that lend themsleves to playing the box are more difficult to play well on the TB, and that the converse is true as well.
Beacuse of the similar tuning, most "fiddle" tunes lend themselves to the Irish tenor. The Kerry polkas are good ones to start with, as they are easy to play and also can be given a good "lift" with this particular instrument.
Do you really need to take formal lessons? Much can be learned using a combination of self-tution, attending workshops at festivals and by discussing technique with experienced players.
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
Enda Scahill has a new tutorial available through his website that may be a good investment. I haven't received mine yet (hopefully this week!), but Mike Keyes spoke highly of it.
As for 3 vs 4 finger, I would think that 4-finger would be easier with 19 frets due to the stretch needed. I use 3-finger myself, but that's because I started learning on mandolin, and my transition was to a 17 fret banjo .
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by Thomaston
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
I have been learning on a 19 fret banjo for only three months, and researched this site and any other information around about the 3 v 4 finger issue as well, and communicated with Mike Keyes about it as well.
What I am finding is that using the four finger approach, yes, the fingers sit more naturally with minimal if any movement, almost directly above the notes you want to play, which is great, and which, I think is the point Mike Keyes makes.
It seems to work really well. At first, the little finger was predictable weak, but as Mike Keyes says, I think, that quickly improved.
What I still notice though is that the third finger is just that much stronger and seems to make a difference to the flow of the tune or something which I can't quite put my finger on yet (pun intended, I suppose). Something about sounding more decisive I think, but that could be totally subjective.
Trying out the three finger approach I think I notice that the reaction is quicker, but I do a bit more moving around the neck and more chance of making a mistake, but that might improve with practice too probably, although at this stage it prompts me to look at the fretboard which I'd rather not get into the habit of doing.
Went to a masterclass at a festival in November and took particular note of what the tutor was doing in this regard - turned out he alternated between the two methods, I guess depending on what made more sense in the tune. It seemed to be an unconscious adjustment he made as well, which I found encouraging.
At this stage, I'm still using the four finger mode, but I do notice that the three finger mode is likely to catch up in the favorite stakes. Altogether a bit like a horse race eh.
Hope that isn't too confusing, I'm confused enough for all of us.
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
Yes Enda's book is great. It's a very methodical approach to the banjo. It surprised me though that he indicates three finger style on his fingering chart. It's what I use, having come from fiddle and mandolin. That was fine on my 17 fret but more difficult on the 19 fret I just got. I do find that 4 finger style is creeping in for certain tunes--particularly tunes where I'd like to keep the first finger down and then play the fifth fret (Drowsy Maggie for example).
If I were starting banjo fresh without fiddle and mandolin experience, I probably would've gone with four finger style.
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by iampeterfonda
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
I use 4 fingers and am not going to change.I got Enda Scahills book and 2 CDs and would advise you to get it and go slowly through it step by step.Its very hard to change the habits of a lifetime so get some one on one lessons ASAP no book can beat real lessons
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by Red Robin
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2582/comments
Mike Keyes gives a comprehensive comment in this thread, and other good stuff in there as well:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7598/comments
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
As all of you know, I am an advocate of the four finger system and my reasons are both due to teachers (Gerry O'Connor), practice and logic, but if you read my review of Enda Scahill's tutor, you will see that left hand technique it is a minor point (but important) overall.
I can play the tenor banjo both ways, I have been a mandolin player for four decades now, but I am more comfortable with the four finger style because I deliberately decided to use it in order to separate my mandolin style from my banjo style. If you have a teacher who advocates the three finger style, go with it. Right hand technique is much more important.
There are times when the tune dictates which left hand style is used as has been pointed out above. The important thing to remember is that as a beginner you have to establish a good basic technique before you can develop a style. The best banjo players have distinctive styles and they vary technique to fit their style, not the other way around. Just yesterday, on the banjohangout, the question of DUD DUD vs DUD UDU in jigs was discussed. I am an advocate of the former but use the latter a lot just because my technical abilities are not so good as to be able to play DUD DUD all the time, especially at speed. Enda Scahill made the point that either technique could be used depending on how lyrical you wanted to make the jig. I realized at that point that strict adherence to the "rules" made it hard to play a distinctive style at times.
But in the beginning you have to establish a basic technique, one that comes automatically and naturally, before you can explore the more sophisticated aspects of the instrument. This is true of any performance method in any field. If you don't have that base, you can't advance without reaching some dead end due to the lack of basic technique. Once you have a base to work from, you can do almost anything you can think of including "breaking the rules."
Three vs. four finger technique is not a mutually exclusive proposition but you have to have some perspective before you go from one to the other. This way you don't run into cognitive dissonance problems; instead you are just using variations of your natural technique.
Mike Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by mikeyes
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
I'll second (or third, as the case may be) the idea that there is no hard and fast rule. I can use both 3 and 4 fingering styles. I started on bouzouki, and learned 4 finger style first, but switched to 3 finger style on the banjo (both short and long scale).
I went through a period of time where I would switch between the two in any given tune, and used to practice switching back and forth to the point where I could do it easily. What this taught me was the ability to think more about the notes, and less about the fingers, which can help get past the "kinesthetic learning" that we all start out with, where you just remember where your fingers go next. (It's a useful stage in the learning process, but you ultimately need to make the connection between where the fingers go, and what notes are coming out, so that you can play a tune, instead of playing a sequence of fingerings...)
Having said all this, I would point out that I use 3 finger style almost exclusively now, even on long scale bouzouki. I do have rather large hands, but having a proper left hand placement is key, where movement up and down the neck is relaxed, and anchored with the thumb on the back of the neck. This allows even people with small hands to reach things comfortably in the 3 finger style.
Since you already play an instrument, you probably already know the mantra, but *relaxation is key*. If your hand hurts at any point in time, whether it be from stretching to reach the B, sore finger tips from pressing on the strings too hard, or tensing up from trying to play faster than you can, then you need to work on relaxing. If you watch an experienced player, the amount of energy that they expend while playing is almost none, and it looks effortless.
I also picked up Enda's tutor, and he does go into the minutiae of things, from how to hold the pick, to how to position both the instrument and your hands. It would have been useful to me when I was first starting for sure! But part of the fun of learning to play an instrument is the journey of discovery along the way
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by Reverend
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
A very interesting comment made by the Reverend, regarding "kinesthetic" learning - i.e. playing by remembering a sequence of notes, as opposed to remembering the individual notes that need to be played.
I use my own terminology to describe these two methods: the first method I call "vector" playing and the the second method I call "bitmap" playing!
To expand on what the Reverend has already stated, I would add that a mastery of the second method is essential should you at any time wish to play from sheet music.
However, the first ("vector") method seems to carry an advantage in circumstances where you are trying to pick up a tune by ear, e.g. at a pub session!
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
I've been playing just over 2 years. I started with 4 finger but moved on to 3 finger. I haven't got the longest fingers in the world, and do struggle at times with my 19 fret, and do find the 17 fret easier. I'm not sure that I should have changed, but most videos of accomplished T B players seem to use 3 finger. So I guess it's just a case of sticking with it. I can't have the shortest fingers in T B circles? Don't concentrate on left hand more than the right. Right hand technique is very important.
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by gilezzznik
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
I started on banjo a little over a yr ago and I got Gerry O's beginner DVD with it. He used 4 finger technique in the video so that's what I started with. I use the same fingering on mandolin as well.
I disagree with gile in that most players I see (youtube) use four fingers.
I think the reverend makes a great point about knowing what note need to be played next as opposed to what finger.
I'm just getting to that stage now where my ears are taking control of where I need to put my fingers and not my memory of tab.
This guy does it well in this tune, going from pinky to ring finger for the fifth fret.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaQkODzv_Kw
Anyway. whatever fingering route you decide, I'd recommend you practice scales and getting used to moving your fingers from string to string and fret to fret. And various cross picking exercises for the right hand.
Good luck.
Ken
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by salmoncove
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
Lots of good advice already given above.
I learned the 3 finger Fiddle/Mandolin fingering as a kid. I then taught a girl the 4 finger method when I was about 16 so that I could learn it too and practice using it (cheeky perhaps!)
Now I use a combination of both as has been said above. I realise that for someone learning for the first time it's important to pick a method and stick with it for the time being.
The big advantage that the 4 finger method has that I can see, is that for a beginner starting off it forces you to use your little finger and make it stronger. 24 years of playing and mine is still on the weak side! The obvious downside is that a weak little finger can make the initial stages of learning banjo an additional burden.
The 3 finger method is easy to learn and for adults, the stretch shouldn't be a big problem.
Enda Scahill
http://www.endascahill.com
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by Enda Scahill
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
Earlier in this post, mikeyes was discussing two picking methods for playing jigs:
DUD DUD
versus
DUD UDU
He concluded that DUD DUD was the superior method, albeit a little more difficult.
Somewhat later, a thought occurred to me. I'm told that DUD UDU is the default bowing method for jigs on the fiddle, and also the the default method with the tipper on the bodhran. This being the case, should it also be the default method on the tenor banjo?
And then another thought occurred to me. What method do I use? Shock horror - I didn't even know! I actually had to get my tenor banjo out of its case and play half-a-dozen jigs to find out. I then discovered that I always used the DUD DUD method - never the other way. Am I using the superior method, as mikeyes suggests? If so, it's a matter of pure luck, as although I've been playing for quite a few years, I've never had a lesson, or even read a tutorial.
Any thoughts, fellow Irish tenorites?
# Posted on January 2nd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
I satarted playing jigs DUD UDU, and then made the effort to change to DUD DUD. My rythm improved substantially, and it wasn't that hard, just a bit of work.
And I don't think that DUD UDU is the default bowing method for jigs on the fiddle. I'm not a fiddler myself, but this topic has been discussed here before.
# Posted on January 2nd 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
Ramiro - glad to know that I'm not the only one using DUD DUD for jigs on tenor banjo!
Regarding the fiddle, I've taken up this instrument only just recently. I have been taken some lessons, and I'm lucky to have one of the best fiddlers in England as my teacher. He is RCM Grade 8 qualifed, and was young musician of the year at Sidmouth a couple of years back.
It was he who advised me that DUD UDU was the "default" method of bowing for jigs, so that was the method that I should be using initially.
# Posted on January 2nd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
Don't want to hijack Cathal's thread, but check this one regarding bowing:
)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17308/
DUD UDU sound Donegal-ish to me (which is not a bad thing
# Posted on January 2nd 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
I have never learned "Irish Tenor Banjo" technique, but do enjoy playing ITM tunes on that instrument.
which is why learning a comprehensive picking method would be of benefit.
Left-hand: 4-fingers (I have small hands). Avoid barres. g-a-b on 1st string played with fingers 1-2-4. I do try to add some left-hand ornamentation, with varying degree of success.
Right-hand: Strict alternate picking where possible (slip-jigs become a little more tricky). Whilst DUD DUD encourages good rhythm for jigs, it is equally possible to learn good rhythm using alternate picking (try repeating DUD on 4th string, UDU on 1st string). Triplets, of course, ruin everything
# Posted on January 2nd 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
Ramiro - again, without wishing to hijack this thread, the default method of jig bowing was given to me on the basis of being a beginner, and on that basis I'm sure that it was sound advice. Naturally, as you became more experenced you would be varying this - to suit particular tunes or various national or regional playing styles.
Incidently, another piece of basic advice that I was given was to avoid slurring the bow when crossing strings.
# Posted on January 2nd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
I was originally a guitar player, (including some classical training) and used four fingers. Taking up mandolin, three fingers seemed the natural order. When I got into tenor banjo, I was not happy with the results, and concentrated on the four finger approach, including sometimes painful development of the little finger strength.
I have no idea when I use downstroke or upstroke, except sometimes when something is not working out, I will stop and analyze what I am doing. Having purchased Enda Scahill's book, I intend to follow the exercises to discover the errors of my ways.
# Posted on January 3rd 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
Folks,
Thank you all for your very helpful comments.
I think for now I will proceed with the 4 finger method to have as a "learning base". Although, with time I will practice the 3 finger method and keep an open mind about shifting between both techniques. The challenge of moving between different fingering techniques is something very apparent to concertina playing so at least I know the extent of the challenge ahead - all part of the enjoyment
Also, in the relation to right hand technique for jog playing, the DUD DUD vs DUD UDU comments have been very useful.
The DUD UDU method would probably be most natural but I can understand how DUD DUD adds a bit more "punch" to the rhythm and hence I will practice this method.
Cheers again,
Cathal
# Posted on January 4th 2009 by CathalC
Re: Learning Banjo - Advice
Quick update......
I bought GOC's DVD tutorial and I've ordered Enda's tutorial also - hopefully will give me enough perspectives to get me started anyway.
I think I’m making decent progress. Spending countless hours moving up and down the scales (4 finger) and I've now moved on to butchering the lilting banshee (x ornamentation of course), as you do. Haven’t tackled the high B yet.
Having great fun with it.
Anyway, cheers again for all the input.
I'm sure I'll be back on requesting help on ornamentation at some stage.
Cathal
# Posted on January 12th 2009 by CathalC