And not that there aren't lots of great traditional guitarists who use DADGAD, because there are loads. But there are loads of lazy players who just can't be bothered to learn nice chords so they just drone away in D formations and use capos instead.
standard tuning doesn't sound better with irish music. too many bar chords, it might suit other types of music better but dadgad suits irish music better because its more melodic and open. and it doesnt matter if a capo is used, the object of accompaniment is to blend with the melody player and make the music sound good, its not about you showing off. alec finn uses a capo for his bouzouki, granted it is only 3 string, but even he says that same thing. yes there are lots of lazy players, like all instruments, but dont let that make a bad impression of the tuning, thats a reflection on the person.
In Drop D the only time I would accompany using a capo is if the instruments are tuned up like Eflat whistles. Otherwise there is really no need for a capo
The argument about tunings for guitar accompaniment (?background?!) will never be solved except to say that it is a matter of personal taste and in the right hands any tuning can sound right. Cahill uses standard without any Bar chords!
I just finished watching In Bruges (great movie, by the way) so I feel even more than usual like this conversation can't end well. Put me down for Drop D, with a capo sometimes.
Lisaniska, the only times I hear about the open C sus 2 tuning is when you mention it. I must say you got me intrigued, as I've never heard a guitar being played in this tuning. Do you know of any recordings or clips on the Internet that you would consider good examples?
Personally, I use EADGBE and drop D. I also use a QuickDraw capo - more so now than I used to. I wouldn't say that one tuning is better than the other for traditional music - there are examples of top-notch playing in both tunings, as well as other tunings. What I would say though, is barré chords generally (but not exclusively), sound crap...
Must say, I prefer the idea of "Bar chords" - and play them quite frequently myself
It really boils down to your competency and mastery of whatever tuning you please. To paraphrase Pierre Bensusan, it's best to be a "master of one" than a "jack of all" tunings because at the end of the day, your innate artistry is (ideally) what's driving your music, not the confines or idioms of any one particular tuning.
That said, my tuning of choice for accompanying Irish traditional music is DADGAD, as my profile name attests to! After years of fumbling around with standard EADGBE in other genres, I discovered Irish music and DADGAD tuning around the same time. I really haven't looked back since. Something about it, presumably the presence of "G as the fourth amidst the fifths of the other strings, places DADGAD in an advantageous range for accompanying (and playing melody!) in Irish traditional music.
THAT said, there are a host of master guitarists who utilize other tunings with truly inspirational results:
DENNIS CAHILL - standard tuning and a commanding knowledge of the fretboard & theory drive his collaboration with fiddler Martin Hayes
PAT EGAN - guitarist and singer with the band Chulrua, as well as a close friend and mentor. Pat "makes standard tuning sound like something else". You really owe it to yourself to grab a lesson just to learn his chord shapes.
MICK MOLONEY, DONAL LUNNY, ANDY O'BRIEN - all have used standard tuning to great effect
And of course you then have all the legendary "Dropped D" players as well: Arty McGlynn, Seamie O'Dowd, John Doyle, Donal Clancy.
If you're looking for inspirational DADGAD players, look no further than:
DAITHI SPROULE - "The Iron Man" with Tommy Peoples
JOHN BLAKE - probably the most tasteful and agreeable backing I've heard. Much in demand...see Harry Bradley, the Kane sisters, Teada, Mick Leahy & Lamond Gillespie, Angelina Carberry, Colm Gannon, Jesse Smith, for his accompaniment (as well as flute and piano)
MICHEAL O'DOMHNAILL - one of the pioneers of 'atmospheric' accompaniment. See has work with the Bothy Band and Kevin Burke.
The main thing is that it's not the TUNING that makes the player in all the above cases, and all the other masters (didn't even get into the "Cooney school"). Quite the opposite! Don't be afraid to experiment.
Ultimately it is the guitarist and not the tuning that matters the most. Either and any tuning can sound good in the right hands.
Other great standard tuning players would include Tony Byrne, Ian Carr, Anna Massie and Finlay Napier.
Paul Brady tends to accompany in open G with a C in the bass I think (CGDGBE).
Users of CGCGCD and other similar C tunings would include Martin Simpson, Dougie MacLean and John Doyle (albeit he is more famous for playing in dropped D)
EADGBE, Dropped D, Open G, DADGAD, there is more tunings than sense.
It really doesn't matter as long as you get a fitting sound out of your desired tuning but to me DADGAD is the best tuning for Irish Trad andI agree with the guy who said about the laziness of some DADGADer's with capo's although for some of the #/flat key's it sounds rubbish without a capo or is nearly impossible to finger.
Everyone has the own different view. Play what you feel suits best.
Oh, absolutely - laziness abounds the accompaniment world. Generally I would use a capo for tunes in C (capo 3 playin A sounds really nice on my guitar!) and E and Bb. But there is no real reason for neading a capo for any of the really common keys and that includes F!
Oh, almost forgot - another name for standard tuned guitar playing - Kris Drever - just incredible what he can do with the guitar:
As Seamus O' Dowd (another great guitarist) said in ceird an cheoil, guitar is one of the easiest to learn but one of the hardest to master.
It's a pity more don't follow Pierre Bensusan's view to explore the instrument they play and "keep bordem at bay and mediocrity at bay" as Van Morrison said. Then again some people aren't as fascinated by their instrument's versatility as I am and settle with old three chord tricks.
Check out Frank Kilkenny's book and CD : Accompanying Irish Music On Guitar. It goes through various tunings and has lots of examples for you to try in each. One of the nice things about it is that it has examples of tunes both with and wthout backing so you can experiment yourself and see what works best for you. I prefer to play in double dropped D myself for no other reason than two of my favourite players use it - Donogh Hennessy and Jim Murray. Sadly I sound nothing like either which sort of illustrates the other side of what Donough has said earier: in the wrong hands ....
I would advise anybody getting in to Irish accompaniment to learn both standard and DADGAD and to spend the time and effort to understand the benefits of each and to learn exactly what those benefits derive from. A good way to provoke that learning is to listen to some characteristic DADGAD sounds and then try to duplicate them in standard, and vice versa. As a bonus, you’ll find that some of the DADGADisms can be produced in standard with a little (or no) extra effort or stretch. The modes based on A have plenty of juicy (and easy) open string possibilities in standard. Also E, which can also cover G if you capo at the third fret.
I think DADGAD is brilliant for this music, but it’s important to learn how to avoid the easy ruts that can sound monotonous or muddy after a while.
For backing, for myself, Dropped D is the best of both worlds. You are easily and usually able to get more variation in the sound than in DADGAD with the capo moved around (though the best DADGAD players may not need to do that capo thing).
Standard is fine if you are a Pat Egan etc. but for most players, it doesn't seem to flow as fluidly as would DADGAD or Dropped D. I admire Pat and others in standard, who can fill the tunes so well without that D Drone. Perhaps I depend on it too much. One player in standard I really like, and people in the NY area would know him, is John Dillon. He's one of the best standard players I ever heard. Just dead on with everything.
In dropped D I never "need" a capo, yet I seem to have more access to notes in a tune when switching to partial melody in the key of A major, by using the capo on the second fret using a G formation. Just like it better for ready access to melody notes due to the setup of the notes and strings in that key, yet for some reason for something like Mason's Apron, I prefer a plain old capo-less A major configuration and a simpler non melodic based backing. It all depends on the tune of course and what you want to do with it. Some tunes take you in one direction and others in a different one.
The same goes for some tunes in E Minor, when they are particularly haunting and slow melodies, I love the sound of them in the D Minor configuration made by a capo on second fret. This is not "lazy" playing, it's actually easier in Em configuration without the capo. One can just as well go without a capo in nearly any situation....unless an E flat session starts up...but I would prefer to tune up a half step... but due to the way the strings are laid out in various keys, some things sound a bit better by using a capo and creating a different configuration. The key of F is another I think sounds better capoed on fret three and played in the D formations, though is more easily found in dropped D without one, in fact, just sliding a few chords on the lower three strings around without changing the fingering works. Just to my ear sounds like there is more light in it played capoed to play in F. Again depends on the tune and whether it is asking for lighter or darker backing, which is also just a matter of taste.
With dropped D, in general, it's much easier to play and can give a fuller sound with that low D drone going on, but lest anyone I give a lesson to who is a beginner gets lazy...or is looking for "easy", they learn standard chording first. it is a great solid background in getting to know the instreument. They can later shift it over to dropped D or whatever else they like. They also need hand exercises from day one to prevent the death grip on the neck, which prevents fluid playing in any tuning.
It astounds me how many people want to pick up guitar because they think it will be easy, no matter what tuning. In many ways the instrument is extremely complex and therefore very versatile. To my mind it is really a form of harp which you create the different string lengths with the fretting hand. Also to be a decent backup or accompanist you at some point really have to start deeply thinking, and at lightening speed, about what it is you are doing or going to do next etc. It can be very improvisational in any key, so long as you know the music and stick with it. Ultimately it makes things more intersting to vary the sounds, in any tuning, rather than strum the same few chords over and over. There are so many sounds you can create as you go along.
Once someone has practiced so much they have command over their hands and know the fingerboard intimately, the whole thing can open up and be endlessly enjoyable, spontaneous, creative, no matter what the tuning. It's all about what you do with it. it's why I love backing more than melody playing, in many ways more of a challenge.... and there is so much more to it than the right key or the right tuning or ways of playing chords. One thing that keeps hitting home is that you have to develop the ability, if you are serious about it, to adapt to each new melody player's phrasing, and in effect change your own playing in subtle ways to suit their style. They should never have to adapt to you, they should in fact be able to forget all about you and do their thing and feel confident that you'll be right there with them.
OK... sorry the quick answer to the question... the first line,.. I like Dropped D.... darn, the tech writing part of me gets off on tangents! feel free to ignore all in between!! LOL!
Someone was asking for names of people who use the CGCGCD tuning. The tuning is more popular among fingerpickers, but it is also Ged Foley's base tuning. He usually capos it at 2 to give him a D base for accompaniment.
He may have changed his style more recently, but this was the tuning he used back in '02 when I took his class at Swannanoa.
"Given good guitar players, DADGAD sound s better."
BBliss - How can you be sure that some of these good guitar players that you thought were in DADGAD were not actually using dropped D, or some other tuning, and making it sound like DADGAD?
BBliss - How can you be sure that some of these good guitar players that you thought were in DADGAD were not actually using dropped D, or some other tuning, and making it sound like DADGAD?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by ragaman
Ah, good question Ragman. Fortunately most sessions I attend are not elite and we actually talk to each other.
bodhran bliss. you don't play an instrument. you play a single drum. maybe even well. but you know which tuning is 'best' for accompanying music. huh... what tuning should I use on my fiddle ( I use drop D tuning on my guitar.)?
I Use EADGBE when I'm Backing a melody player and I usually play with DADGAD or other alternative tuning for the fingerpicking but I like the sound of the chords when backing a tune with DAGDAD even if there are new chords positions to learn.
The harder things to for me to do is to understand whitch kind of guitar tuning is playing a guitarist in a recording.
BYE
Martin "an Irishman in Italy"
I am also "Accused" of playing DADGAD quite often, when it is actually Dropped D. I am not a very chord based backer, more a "run based" and partial melody based, as a pianist would be, so when they don't see sensible looking chording going on they assume it's DADGAD. I do play DADGAD for tunes and sometimes an open G but rarely. keep meaning to try LowC but keep getting derailed, as lately all my practice time leads to the harp these days. I have gotten totally addicted to the thing, obsessed, forget to eat, work, clean things up etc! It's a drug!
All you fingerstyle players, you ought to give it a go on harp for fun... it's utterly mindbendingly addictive, and very similar to finger playing on guitar, esp. the right hand...and also much easier to find the tunes on. The hand mechanics and technique, that is the hard part, takes a long time to gain any command as it would to be able to play any instrument well, and I still struggle as my one year harp anniversary rolls around next month, but it is coming along.
It would be interesting to build a seven string guitar in do-re-mi like a harp! In basic D and capo... speaking of which, the levers on the harp make the key changes, so you do the same thing just higher or lower.... as you would with a capo in DADGAD if played that way.
One great harper I know tried to go from harp to fingerstyle guitar and found it way too confusing and complicated and jumped ship fast. She asked how in the world one ever remembers all those different left hand positions, and felt she lost the left hand due to having to fret, and had to figure how to do with the thumb what the left harp hand did, while playing the tune with the other fingers. I did gain a very healthy respect for anyone who can play a fingerstyle guitar tune of any kind in any tuning after the harp, since you both play melody AND backup yourself with the thumb all on one hand. Guitar is very hard and complex to play tunes on, period, requires more memory I think. Not to say harp or anything is easy, but on a basic level as for finding tunes harp is more sensible by a long shot. Whoever laid out guitar may have had torture on their mind! The ones who first laid harp out were way less sadistic. And I think they, and lutes are a sort of small harp, fretting makes the different string lengths. Any fretted stringed thing really when you think about it, is in a sense a porta harp... play some O'Carolan's on guitar, it sounds very much like harp, especially when in an open tuning.
So let's try harp tuning next on guitar, like the white keys on the piano. There's a guy in NJ building those seven stringers, will have to explore than further! See how they are tuned. Logically would seem like it would be standard and the lowest string a D drone though.
I got the most improved player's medal from the beginners harp class when I attended the Gaelic college at St Ann's on Cape Breton Island in 2006 (starting form zero I improved infinitely, obviously).
I think it was tuned CDEFGABCDEFGABCDEFGABC or some such.
What I really liked though was the idea of thinking ahead and setting your hands - kind of like you do on the piano, but it's far more satisfying plucking strings.
For backing tunes I use standard tuning on guitar, but then that's mainly Scottish tunes. Scottish tunes are often in A and I prefer standard for that.
I know very few Irish tunes (which are often in D, I think). I do think, though, that I can make a reasonable stab at modal (i.e., non-3rd type thingy) chords in standard tuning.
bodhran bliss. you don't play an instrument. you play a single drum. maybe even well. but you know which tuning is 'best' for accompanying music. huh... what tuning should I use on my fiddle ( I use drop D tuning on my guitar.)?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Farr
On your fiddle I would use the same tuning as I use on my mandolin.
But then I use standard tuning on the guitar.
Fortunately I do not have to tune the whistle, or the harmonica or blues harp.
The banjo, I just use eadg, or GDAE whichever way you look at it.
Now having illustrated that people living in San Francisco shouldn't be presumptuous about strangers living in Ireland, I will answer your question.
I would tune your fiddle GDAE, or eadg whichever way you look at it.
However you can feel free to tune it whatever way you want.
bodhran bliss. you don't play an instrument. you play a single drum. maybe even well. but you know which tuning is 'best' for accompanying music.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Farr
As for the "maybe even well" all I can humbly say is "you better believe it". Absolutely brilliant.
As to the second bit, yes I do know which tuning sounds best. You don't need to know anything about music, just have ears and a tongue.
Ramiro, I don't have a bouzouki, but have a mandola, tuned CGDA, which is very good for backing in D, which I suppose is the same thing, except that the strings are in unison.
Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Do more guitarists playing background for TIM use DADGAD tuning or the normal Spanish EADGBE tuning?
Which is more common and why?
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Cape Cod Struggler
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
DADGAD, because it's easier to get away with being lazy.
EADGBE sounds better, but it's harder.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Robert Ryan
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Not that I'm opinionated or anything...
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Robert Ryan
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
And not that there aren't lots of great traditional guitarists who use DADGAD, because there are loads. But there are loads of lazy players who just can't be bothered to learn nice chords so they just drone away in D formations and use capos instead.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Robert Ryan
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Droning away in D formations and using a capo sounds a lot better, and fits better with the music.
I listen, so I know.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I listen too and it depends on the ability and capability of the guitarist whether lazy or hard. So there! Horses for courses aint it?
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
standard tuning doesn't sound better with irish music. too many bar chords, it might suit other types of music better but dadgad suits irish music better because its more melodic and open. and it doesnt matter if a capo is used, the object of accompaniment is to blend with the melody player and make the music sound good, its not about you showing off. alec finn uses a capo for his bouzouki, granted it is only 3 string, but even he says that same thing. yes there are lots of lazy players, like all instruments, but dont let that make a bad impression of the tuning, thats a reflection on the person.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
granted there are good player using standard tuning, but really with the drop D, but even they have to use capos sometimes.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
In Drop D the only time I would accompany using a capo is if the instruments are tuned up like Eflat whistles. Otherwise there is really no need for a capo
The argument about tunings for guitar accompaniment (?background?!) will never be solved except to say that it is a matter of personal taste and in the right hands any tuning can sound right. Cahill uses standard without any Bar chords!
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Donough
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
forget all that _ it's open C sus 2 = CGCGCD thanks to Tommy O'Sullivan and within the decade this will be mainstream
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by lisaniska
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I just finished watching In Bruges (great movie, by the way) so I feel even more than usual like this conversation can't end well. Put me down for Drop D, with a capo sometimes.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I think that the main criterion should not be the complexity of the fingerings but the sound you want.
It's easy to play in E dorian or aeolian with EADGBE tuning (The Rights of Man) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LLOeJQzDSw&feature=channel
but tou can get some nices sounds in DADGAD while playing in this key with capo 2 (Eddy Kelly's) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEvwV5JvTM&feature=channel_page
or without capo (Drowsy Maggie) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5PJEwZ12rQ&feature=channel_page
My final choice for the tuning is the sound I get. The second criterion is the difficulty of the fingerings because I'm not Tony McManus
You can have a "boroque like" sound using EADGBE (Carolan's Draught) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIkFKHja5rU&feature=channel_page
But you can also approach DADGAD sound with standard tuning in some keys like E, A or G (Rodney's Glory) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFe9-MMWfiU&feature=channel_page
The only real difficulty is to play in D using EADGBE because of the lack of D bass. That's why I use DADGAD most of the time when I play in this key (Out on the Ocean) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7IuzrK_7iI&feature=channel_page
But dropped D could also be a good solution, depending of the sound effect I want to have...
The links I give are for finger picking, but it would be the same for chords backing.
Oupf ! First time I write a so long text in english since I was in highschool... Just hope you will understand what I mean
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Jean2
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Donough really hit the nail on the head here.
Lisaniska, the only times I hear about the open C sus 2 tuning is when you mention it. I must say you got me intrigued, as I've never heard a guitar being played in this tuning. Do you know of any recordings or clips on the Internet that you would consider good examples?
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by EastPole
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Personally, I use EADGBE and drop D. I also use a QuickDraw capo - more so now than I used to. I wouldn't say that one tuning is better than the other for traditional music - there are examples of top-notch playing in both tunings, as well as other tunings. What I would say though, is barré chords generally (but not exclusively), sound crap...
Must say, I prefer the idea of "Bar chords" - and play them quite frequently myself
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
It really boils down to your competency and mastery of whatever tuning you please. To paraphrase Pierre Bensusan, it's best to be a "master of one" than a "jack of all" tunings because at the end of the day, your innate artistry is (ideally) what's driving your music, not the confines or idioms of any one particular tuning.
That said, my tuning of choice for accompanying Irish traditional music is DADGAD, as my profile name attests to! After years of fumbling around with standard EADGBE in other genres, I discovered Irish music and DADGAD tuning around the same time. I really haven't looked back since. Something about it, presumably the presence of "G as the fourth amidst the fifths of the other strings, places DADGAD in an advantageous range for accompanying (and playing melody!) in Irish traditional music.
THAT said, there are a host of master guitarists who utilize other tunings with truly inspirational results:
DENNIS CAHILL - standard tuning and a commanding knowledge of the fretboard & theory drive his collaboration with fiddler Martin Hayes
PAT EGAN - guitarist and singer with the band Chulrua, as well as a close friend and mentor. Pat "makes standard tuning sound like something else". You really owe it to yourself to grab a lesson just to learn his chord shapes.
MICK MOLONEY, DONAL LUNNY, ANDY O'BRIEN - all have used standard tuning to great effect
And of course you then have all the legendary "Dropped D" players as well: Arty McGlynn, Seamie O'Dowd, John Doyle, Donal Clancy.
If you're looking for inspirational DADGAD players, look no further than:
DAITHI SPROULE - "The Iron Man" with Tommy Peoples
JOHN BLAKE - probably the most tasteful and agreeable backing I've heard. Much in demand...see Harry Bradley, the Kane sisters, Teada, Mick Leahy & Lamond Gillespie, Angelina Carberry, Colm Gannon, Jesse Smith, for his accompaniment (as well as flute and piano)
MICHEAL O'DOMHNAILL - one of the pioneers of 'atmospheric' accompaniment. See has work with the Bothy Band and Kevin Burke.
The main thing is that it's not the TUNING that makes the player in all the above cases, and all the other masters (didn't even get into the "Cooney school"). Quite the opposite! Don't be afraid to experiment.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by DADGADLad
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
^ After leaving out Paul Brady as well!
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by DADGADLad
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
And Dick Gaughan!
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Ultimately it is the guitarist and not the tuning that matters the most. Either and any tuning can sound good in the right hands.
Other great standard tuning players would include Tony Byrne, Ian Carr, Anna Massie and Finlay Napier.
Paul Brady tends to accompany in open G with a C in the bass I think (CGDGBE).
Users of CGCGCD and other similar C tunings would include Martin Simpson, Dougie MacLean and John Doyle (albeit he is more famous for playing in dropped D)
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Try Martin Carthy's CGCDGA tuning. I use double dropped D. DADGBD.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by dafydd
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
EADGBE, Dropped D, Open G, DADGAD, there is more tunings than sense.
It really doesn't matter as long as you get a fitting sound out of your desired tuning but to me DADGAD is the best tuning for Irish Trad andI agree with the guy who said about the laziness of some DADGADer's with capo's although for some of the #/flat key's it sounds rubbish without a capo or is nearly impossible to finger.
Everyone has the own different view. Play what you feel suits best.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Irish DADGAD
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Oh, absolutely - laziness abounds the accompaniment world. Generally I would use a capo for tunes in C (capo 3 playin A sounds really nice on my guitar!) and E and Bb. But there is no real reason for neading a capo for any of the really common keys and that includes F!
Oh, almost forgot - another name for standard tuned guitar playing - Kris Drever - just incredible what he can do with the guitar:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EQVGDpnLgOE&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DRUUhUST5XE
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
As Seamus O' Dowd (another great guitarist) said in ceird an cheoil, guitar is one of the easiest to learn but one of the hardest to master.
It's a pity more don't follow Pierre Bensusan's view to explore the instrument they play and "keep bordem at bay and mediocrity at bay" as Van Morrison said. Then again some people aren't as fascinated by their instrument's versatility as I am and settle with old three chord tricks.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Irish DADGAD
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Check out Frank Kilkenny's book and CD : Accompanying Irish Music On Guitar. It goes through various tunings and has lots of examples for you to try in each. One of the nice things about it is that it has examples of tunes both with and wthout backing so you can experiment yourself and see what works best for you. I prefer to play in double dropped D myself for no other reason than two of my favourite players use it - Donogh Hennessy and Jim Murray. Sadly I sound nothing like either which sort of illustrates the other side of what Donough has said earier: in the wrong hands ....
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Carl McAndrew
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
as an ex-guitar player i thought i might pipe in here with my old favourite-DGDGBD. Very handy for playing in lots of keys/modes , whatever.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I listen too and it depends on the ability and capability of the guitarist whether lazy or hard. So there! Horses for courses aint it?
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by john knoss
Wow John, that is deep.
When we have a discussion such as this I assume we are discussing competent players.
There would be little point in discussing the merits of a certain make of flute if no-one played the thing.
In short, Matt Molloy is going to better than me on a £50 flute than I am on a Sam Murray flute as I cannot play.
Given good guitar players, DADGAD sound s better.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I would advise anybody getting in to Irish accompaniment to learn both standard and DADGAD and to spend the time and effort to understand the benefits of each and to learn exactly what those benefits derive from. A good way to provoke that learning is to listen to some characteristic DADGAD sounds and then try to duplicate them in standard, and vice versa. As a bonus, you’ll find that some of the DADGADisms can be produced in standard with a little (or no) extra effort or stretch. The modes based on A have plenty of juicy (and easy) open string possibilities in standard. Also E, which can also cover G if you capo at the third fret.
I think DADGAD is brilliant for this music, but it’s important to learn how to avoid the easy ruts that can sound monotonous or muddy after a while.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I have played the guitar for 7 years and EADGBE is the best.
The other one is for blues slide guitar.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by Oscar music
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I play in open G, with a bottleneck, sounds sort of like a cross between Blind Willie Johnson & Johnny Fean.
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by strayaway
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
For backing, for myself, Dropped D is the best of both worlds. You are easily and usually able to get more variation in the sound than in DADGAD with the capo moved around (though the best DADGAD players may not need to do that capo thing).
Standard is fine if you are a Pat Egan etc. but for most players, it doesn't seem to flow as fluidly as would DADGAD or Dropped D. I admire Pat and others in standard, who can fill the tunes so well without that D Drone. Perhaps I depend on it too much. One player in standard I really like, and people in the NY area would know him, is John Dillon. He's one of the best standard players I ever heard. Just dead on with everything.
In dropped D I never "need" a capo, yet I seem to have more access to notes in a tune when switching to partial melody in the key of A major, by using the capo on the second fret using a G formation. Just like it better for ready access to melody notes due to the setup of the notes and strings in that key, yet for some reason for something like Mason's Apron, I prefer a plain old capo-less A major configuration and a simpler non melodic based backing. It all depends on the tune of course and what you want to do with it. Some tunes take you in one direction and others in a different one.
The same goes for some tunes in E Minor, when they are particularly haunting and slow melodies, I love the sound of them in the D Minor configuration made by a capo on second fret. This is not "lazy" playing, it's actually easier in Em configuration without the capo. One can just as well go without a capo in nearly any situation....unless an E flat session starts up...but I would prefer to tune up a half step... but due to the way the strings are laid out in various keys, some things sound a bit better by using a capo and creating a different configuration. The key of F is another I think sounds better capoed on fret three and played in the D formations, though is more easily found in dropped D without one, in fact, just sliding a few chords on the lower three strings around without changing the fingering works. Just to my ear sounds like there is more light in it played capoed to play in F. Again depends on the tune and whether it is asking for lighter or darker backing, which is also just a matter of taste.
With dropped D, in general, it's much easier to play and can give a fuller sound with that low D drone going on, but lest anyone I give a lesson to who is a beginner gets lazy...or is looking for "easy", they learn standard chording first. it is a great solid background in getting to know the instreument. They can later shift it over to dropped D or whatever else they like. They also need hand exercises from day one to prevent the death grip on the neck, which prevents fluid playing in any tuning.
It astounds me how many people want to pick up guitar because they think it will be easy, no matter what tuning. In many ways the instrument is extremely complex and therefore very versatile. To my mind it is really a form of harp which you create the different string lengths with the fretting hand. Also to be a decent backup or accompanist you at some point really have to start deeply thinking, and at lightening speed, about what it is you are doing or going to do next etc. It can be very improvisational in any key, so long as you know the music and stick with it. Ultimately it makes things more intersting to vary the sounds, in any tuning, rather than strum the same few chords over and over. There are so many sounds you can create as you go along.
Once someone has practiced so much they have command over their hands and know the fingerboard intimately, the whole thing can open up and be endlessly enjoyable, spontaneous, creative, no matter what the tuning. It's all about what you do with it. it's why I love backing more than melody playing, in many ways more of a challenge.... and there is so much more to it than the right key or the right tuning or ways of playing chords. One thing that keeps hitting home is that you have to develop the ability, if you are serious about it, to adapt to each new melody player's phrasing, and in effect change your own playing in subtle ways to suit their style. They should never have to adapt to you, they should in fact be able to forget all about you and do their thing and feel confident that you'll be right there with them.
OK... sorry the quick answer to the question... the first line,.. I like Dropped D.... darn, the tech writing part of me gets off on tangents! feel free to ignore all in between!! LOL!
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Someone was asking for names of people who use the CGCGCD tuning. The tuning is more popular among fingerpickers, but it is also Ged Foley's base tuning. He usually capos it at 2 to give him a D base for accompaniment.
He may have changed his style more recently, but this was the tuning he used back in '02 when I took his class at Swannanoa.
jeff
# Posted on December 15th 2008 by jeff_willner
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
"Given good guitar players, DADGAD sound s better."
BBliss - How can you be sure that some of these good guitar players that you thought were in DADGAD were not actually using dropped D, or some other tuning, and making it sound like DADGAD?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I tried to play Standard, but I don't like the tone.
I play DADGAD, Cappo the 5'th fret - leave it there.
The tone is nice, and its light rather than thumpy and heavy, which I don't like.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
BBliss - How can you be sure that some of these good guitar players that you thought were in DADGAD were not actually using dropped D, or some other tuning, and making it sound like DADGAD?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by ragaman
Ah, good question Ragman. Fortunately most sessions I attend are not elite and we actually talk to each other.
That's how I know.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
irisnevins, your spot on!!
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by CFlood
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
bodhran bliss. you don't play an instrument. you play a single drum. maybe even well. but you know which tuning is 'best' for accompanying music. huh... what tuning should I use on my fiddle ( I use drop D tuning on my guitar.)?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Farr
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I Use EADGBE when I'm Backing a melody player and I usually play with DADGAD or other alternative tuning for the fingerpicking but I like the sound of the chords when backing a tune with DAGDAD even if there are new chords positions to learn.
The harder things to for me to do is to understand whitch kind of guitar tuning is playing a guitarist in a recording.
BYE
Martin "an Irishman in Italy"
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by CORK
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I am also "Accused" of playing DADGAD quite often, when it is actually Dropped D. I am not a very chord based backer, more a "run based" and partial melody based, as a pianist would be, so when they don't see sensible looking chording going on they assume it's DADGAD. I do play DADGAD for tunes and sometimes an open G but rarely. keep meaning to try LowC but keep getting derailed, as lately all my practice time leads to the harp these days. I have gotten totally addicted to the thing, obsessed, forget to eat, work, clean things up etc! It's a drug!
All you fingerstyle players, you ought to give it a go on harp for fun... it's utterly mindbendingly addictive, and very similar to finger playing on guitar, esp. the right hand...and also much easier to find the tunes on. The hand mechanics and technique, that is the hard part, takes a long time to gain any command as it would to be able to play any instrument well, and I still struggle as my one year harp anniversary rolls around next month, but it is coming along.
It would be interesting to build a seven string guitar in do-re-mi like a harp! In basic D and capo... speaking of which, the levers on the harp make the key changes, so you do the same thing just higher or lower.... as you would with a capo in DADGAD if played that way.
One great harper I know tried to go from harp to fingerstyle guitar and found it way too confusing and complicated and jumped ship fast. She asked how in the world one ever remembers all those different left hand positions, and felt she lost the left hand due to having to fret, and had to figure how to do with the thumb what the left harp hand did, while playing the tune with the other fingers. I did gain a very healthy respect for anyone who can play a fingerstyle guitar tune of any kind in any tuning after the harp, since you both play melody AND backup yourself with the thumb all on one hand. Guitar is very hard and complex to play tunes on, period, requires more memory I think. Not to say harp or anything is easy, but on a basic level as for finding tunes harp is more sensible by a long shot. Whoever laid out guitar may have had torture on their mind! The ones who first laid harp out were way less sadistic. And I think they, and lutes are a sort of small harp, fretting makes the different string lengths. Any fretted stringed thing really when you think about it, is in a sense a porta harp... play some O'Carolan's on guitar, it sounds very much like harp, especially when in an open tuning.
So let's try harp tuning next on guitar, like the white keys on the piano. There's a guy in NJ building those seven stringers, will have to explore than further! See how they are tuned. Logically would seem like it would be standard and the lowest string a D drone though.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
I got the most improved player's medal from the beginners harp class when I attended the Gaelic college at St Ann's on Cape Breton Island in 2006 (starting form zero I improved infinitely, obviously).
I think it was tuned CDEFGABCDEFGABCDEFGABC or some such.
What I really liked though was the idea of thinking ahead and setting your hands - kind of like you do on the piano, but it's far more satisfying plucking strings.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
For backing tunes I use standard tuning on guitar, but then that's mainly Scottish tunes. Scottish tunes are often in A and I prefer standard for that.
I know very few Irish tunes (which are often in D, I think). I do think, though, that I can make a reasonable stab at modal (i.e., non-3rd type thingy) chords in standard tuning.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
bodhran bliss. you don't play an instrument. you play a single drum. maybe even well. but you know which tuning is 'best' for accompanying music. huh... what tuning should I use on my fiddle ( I use drop D tuning on my guitar.)?
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Farr
On your fiddle I would use the same tuning as I use on my mandolin.
But then I use standard tuning on the guitar.
Fortunately I do not have to tune the whistle, or the harmonica or blues harp.
The banjo, I just use eadg, or GDAE whichever way you look at it.
Now having illustrated that people living in San Francisco shouldn't be presumptuous about strangers living in Ireland, I will answer your question.
I would tune your fiddle GDAE, or eadg whichever way you look at it.
However you can feel free to tune it whatever way you want.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
bodhran bliss. you don't play an instrument. you play a single drum. maybe even well. but you know which tuning is 'best' for accompanying music.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Farr
As for the "maybe even well" all I can humbly say is "you better believe it". Absolutely brilliant.
As to the second bit, yes I do know which tuning sounds best. You don't need to know anything about music, just have ears and a tongue.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Donald, have you tried a GDAE tuned bouzouki for backing in A? I like it.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Ramiro, I don't have a bouzouki, but have a mandola, tuned CGDA, which is very good for backing in D, which I suppose is the same thing, except that the strings are in unison.
# Posted on December 16th 2008 by DonaldK
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
Yes, the same thing, I suppose.
# Posted on December 17th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
no one seems to of caught onto the power this tunning offers
# Posted on December 30th 2008 by lisaniska
Re: Guitar tuning DADGAD or EADGBE?
CGCGCD _ happy new guitaring . . .
and trust me on it
# Posted on December 31st 2008 by hungry grass