Has anyone in this great community any idea why guitars and bouzoukis are not used in Ceili bands? I have bought all the three books and CDs of Comhaltas Foinn Seisiun and I found that the bands playing the tunes have no guitars/bouzukis. Should guitars/bouzukis regarded as late-comers to Irish traditional/folk music?
Good question - do away with the drums as well if you ask me. Bring in the pipes, dulcimer, bodhrans. Try winning with that combo at the all ireland though see how far you get.
"Should guitars/bouzukis regarded as late-comers to Irish traditional/folk music?"
That is what they are, relative to the fiddle, pipes, concertina etc. They are also late-comers compared to the piano, albeit only marginally on the grand scheme of things. The concept of the ceili band in Ireland, as I understand it, only really came into being in the mid-1930s with the Dance Hall Act. At that time, the piano featured heavily in popular music and was a ubiquitous instrument for informal music making (much like the guitar is today), and was also gaining popularity as an accompanying instrument for Irish traditional music.
So the ceili band 'formula' became established at a time when the piano was fashionable and thus, the piano became integral to it. But perhaps the reason why its use in ceili bands has persisted to the present day, whilst plucked instruments have become the dominant form of accompaniment in 'performance' bands and sessions, is that it is particularly well suited to providing the kind of punctuated rhythm that set dancers require. (I am not a dancer myself, but I would imagine this to be the case).
This kind of rhythm can, of course, be produced on plucked strings as well. But an unamplified guitar or bouzouki could never compete in volume with 30-odd melody instruments and a snare drum, whilst a piano could. There may well have been ceili bands that tried using electric guitar*, but no doubt this was frowned upon by many trad players of the day. Nowadays, with everything plugged in (most ceili bands use digital pianos) or miked up - and the possibility of amplifying an acoustic guitar without making it sound like an electric - this is perhaps less of an issue than it was. But the existing formula seems to work, so it's probably here to stay for a while yet.
*In English 'ceilidh' bands, a 'rock'-type rhythm section (electric guitar, bass and drums) has become almost de rigeur - to the detriment of the tunes, I think.
"Try winning with that combo at the all ireland though see how far you get."
A good point. A lot of ceili bands in Ireland are more concerned with winning medals than playing for dancers. If they don't fit the mould, they don't stand a chance.
When did you last hear a ceili band playing for dancing, or is there a separate set of musos who play for 'social' dances to those who compete in the fleadh, etc. ?
As I understand it, the Dance Hall Act nearly killed all music, with the complete approval of the Church who wanted to limit the opportunities for fornication, by setting down strict rules as to what did, and didn't, go on in public.
Mainly because the ceili band emerged at a time (c1910s-20s on) when the guitar wasn't a popular instrument, and no one knew what a bouzouki was. Oh, and for those who think the ceili band is about competitions and medals, check out why the Ballinakill and Aughrim Slopes and other bands started up - for playing at dances.
I wouldn't say that the 3 Comhaltas Foinn Seisiun Cds are played by a ceilidh band, and there is a bouzouki player in them (Oliver Longuet according to the credits).
some of the best bands I have danced to had guitars and Zouks but they were not Ceili Bands.
I am surprised to hear that Llig prefers drums and Pianos both of which are more often weapons of reel destruction in my experiance.
The Tulla and Kilfenora Céilí bands are two that immediately come to mind who play for dancing. Also there are two other guitarists who provide very tasty backing on certain of the Foinn Seisiún CDs (Enda Cloke and Joey Doyle). As for céilí bands my guess is that it's probably making the best use of the limited number (10 max for competition) of instruments at your disposal. Piano and drums will provide a stronger rhythmic effect for dancers than either a guitar or bouzouki.
And every ceili band I ever danced to and played with over the past 50 years had drums and sometimes a piano. Many had a bass fiddle, and many had a sax player., They were all great lively bands and great to dance to, so there ya go.........one mans' meat etc.......
There are a number of very good ceili bands playing in Ireland (and America) for dancing. Clare alone has the Tulla, Kilfenora, Four Courts, Turloughmore, Michael Sexton and Pat Walsh to name five right away and there must easily be another 20-30 scattered around the rest of the island if you look at any issue of Set Dancing News.
Just in case I offended anyone, I was trying to get information rather than suggest that ceili bands DIDN'T play for dancing.
I hope that clears that up.
Who said that céilí bands don't play for dancing? That is exactly the reason why the bands were set up in the first place. Guitars and Bouzukis are NOT irish instruments and just because someone plays an irish tune on them still doesn't make them one
Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
Has anyone in this great community any idea why guitars and bouzoukis are not used in Ceili bands? I have bought all the three books and CDs of Comhaltas Foinn Seisiun and I found that the bands playing the tunes have no guitars/bouzukis. Should guitars/bouzukis regarded as late-comers to Irish traditional/folk music?
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by nemethmik
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
It's just that they are not necessary, they muddy the rhythm and add nothing. Worse than pointless, as far as dancing goes.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by ...
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
Good question - do away with the drums as well if you ask me. Bring in the pipes, dulcimer, bodhrans. Try winning with that combo at the all ireland though see how far you get.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
"Should guitars/bouzukis regarded as late-comers to Irish traditional/folk music?"
That is what they are, relative to the fiddle, pipes, concertina etc. They are also late-comers compared to the piano, albeit only marginally on the grand scheme of things. The concept of the ceili band in Ireland, as I understand it, only really came into being in the mid-1930s with the Dance Hall Act. At that time, the piano featured heavily in popular music and was a ubiquitous instrument for informal music making (much like the guitar is today), and was also gaining popularity as an accompanying instrument for Irish traditional music.
So the ceili band 'formula' became established at a time when the piano was fashionable and thus, the piano became integral to it. But perhaps the reason why its use in ceili bands has persisted to the present day, whilst plucked instruments have become the dominant form of accompaniment in 'performance' bands and sessions, is that it is particularly well suited to providing the kind of punctuated rhythm that set dancers require. (I am not a dancer myself, but I would imagine this to be the case).
This kind of rhythm can, of course, be produced on plucked strings as well. But an unamplified guitar or bouzouki could never compete in volume with 30-odd melody instruments and a snare drum, whilst a piano could. There may well have been ceili bands that tried using electric guitar*, but no doubt this was frowned upon by many trad players of the day. Nowadays, with everything plugged in (most ceili bands use digital pianos) or miked up - and the possibility of amplifying an acoustic guitar without making it sound like an electric - this is perhaps less of an issue than it was. But the existing formula seems to work, so it's probably here to stay for a while yet.
*In English 'ceilidh' bands, a 'rock'-type rhythm section (electric guitar, bass and drums) has become almost de rigeur - to the detriment of the tunes, I think.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
"Try winning with that combo at the all ireland though see how far you get."
A good point. A lot of ceili bands in Ireland are more concerned with winning medals than playing for dancers. If they don't fit the mould, they don't stand a chance.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
When did you last hear a ceili band playing for dancing, or is there a separate set of musos who play for 'social' dances to those who compete in the fleadh, etc. ?
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
As I understand it, the Dance Hall Act nearly killed all music, with the complete approval of the Church who wanted to limit the opportunities for fornication, by setting down strict rules as to what did, and didn't, go on in public.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
Mainly because the ceili band emerged at a time (c1910s-20s on) when the guitar wasn't a popular instrument, and no one knew what a bouzouki was. Oh, and for those who think the ceili band is about competitions and medals, check out why the Ballinakill and Aughrim Slopes and other bands started up - for playing at dances.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by continuo
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
I wouldn't say that the 3 Comhaltas Foinn Seisiun Cds are played by a ceilidh band, and there is a bouzouki player in them (Oliver Longuet according to the credits).
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
"When did you last hear a ceili band playing for dancing"
Last month. I don't think it's really that rare.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by hotsauce
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
some of the best bands I have danced to had guitars and Zouks but they were not Ceili Bands.
I am surprised to hear that Llig prefers drums and Pianos both of which are more often weapons of reel destruction in my experiance.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
The Tulla and Kilfenora Céilí bands are two that immediately come to mind who play for dancing. Also there are two other guitarists who provide very tasty backing on certain of the Foinn Seisiún CDs (Enda Cloke and Joey Doyle). As for céilí bands my guess is that it's probably making the best use of the limited number (10 max for competition) of instruments at your disposal. Piano and drums will provide a stronger rhythmic effect for dancers than either a guitar or bouzouki.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
And every ceili band I ever danced to and played with over the past 50 years had drums and sometimes a piano. Many had a bass fiddle, and many had a sax player., They were all great lively bands and great to dance to, so there ya go.........one mans' meat etc.......
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
There are a number of very good ceili bands playing in Ireland (and America) for dancing. Clare alone has the Tulla, Kilfenora, Four Courts, Turloughmore, Michael Sexton and Pat Walsh to name five right away and there must easily be another 20-30 scattered around the rest of the island if you look at any issue of Set Dancing News.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by clareman
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
very few ~ if any ~ of the ceili bands in the US were formed for competition reasons....they play for dancing!
# Posted on December 12th 2008 by Ceolagusrince
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
Just in case I offended anyone, I was trying to get information rather than suggest that ceili bands DIDN'T play for dancing.
I hope that clears that up.
# Posted on December 12th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
Who said that céilí bands don't play for dancing? That is exactly the reason why the bands were set up in the first place. Guitars and Bouzukis are NOT irish instruments and just because someone plays an irish tune on them still doesn't make them one
# Posted on January 11th 2009 by ennisman
Re: Guitars and Bouzoukis not used in Ceili Bands
it could be argued that piano, banjo, drums or any other instrument are not irish so that does not really answer his question
# Posted on November 9th 2011 by palethinboy