Does anybody have a pointer to a good recording of this tune (preferably fiddle), or a good sheet music setting?
I used to have it on a tape a friend made me but lost it and never knew the performer -- I always meant to learn the tune. Nobody I know plays it, but I really like the tune.
Itīs a long time ago, but I think it was recorded by Frankie Gavin on one of the very early De Danaan LPīs, somewhere between 1975 and 1980. But I donīt have the LP, so I donīt know much more about it.
Sheet music of it can be found in OīNeillīs (Revised Ed.).
jennys welcome 2 charlIE is the absolute dogs nads tune, it is my favourite tune, this tune hasent be recorded much, its a big clare tune, bobby casey played it alot. he recorded it on a album called "irish trad. music from clare and galway", who he plays a long with other london based musicians raymon roland/ cant remaember the rest.. but a not source for the tune i think, they only play each part once fof some reason, it sounds a bit rushed, played a bit fast, and its got dodgy piano backing in it. jennys bang on charlie{ as i call it} it best played slow. paddy glackin recorded on an album with loads of sythns in the late seventies with a bloke called jessie? its a very dodgy experimental album...but there is a very good version of jennys on it, paddy glackin is a good source for tunes,
c ya kane orourke here ...do u live in london ? cause i ave got a good version of it, i would love 2 pass it on 2 u?
Hello!
I have this tune in a tape a friend of mine recorded for me. It is played after The Broken Pledge.The version is from De Dananns 2nd LP "Selected jigs+reels+songs" from 1977, Decca records. With Frankie Gavin, Charlie Piggot, Alec Finn, Johnny Monyhinon and Johnny "Ring" McDonagh. It's a very nice tune.
Hope you can find it!
Irina
Violadave, Paddy Glackin did record a cracking version of this tune, but it was on Doublin' - the duet album he recorded in the late 1970s with Paddy Keenan.
The synthy album you are thinking of was with the late Jolyon Jackson, and is called Hidden Ground. Jenny's Welcome is not on it, but it starts with "The Long Note", which actually is a 3-part single jig that was obviously at one time the same tune as Jenny's Welcome and remains an obvious cousin.
(To confuse the matter further, if you listen to a 4-part version of Jenny's Welcome to Charlie recorded by piper Seamus Ennis, it's much closer to The Long Note than the usual fiddle version of Jenny's Welcome as played by Paddy Glackin, De Dannan etc.)
Bobby Casey's version on "Casey in the Cowhouse" is a masterpiece. I also have a couple of versions on old records that are probably impossible to find today - one by Tommy Peoples, and another by a very young Sean Keane on a Comhaltas compilation. Both are exquisite.
It's a great tune traditionally chosen by the best fiddle players to demonstrate what they can do, so tread carefully....
Thank you,Brother Steve but I can assure you I don't play this tune - the post above was put there by Kane O'Rourke who does play it very well indeed. Cracking tune,though.
Dave
Kathleen Collins album has a great setting of this tune, she plays it in a west clare-galway style. I'm always leary when I hear about Donegal fiddlers try to play Clare Galway specialty tunes. Peoples & Glackin are good for the northern stuff but leave the swingy relaxed stuff to Casey & Gavin.
Sorry Brad...I just posted something close to Glackin's version in the tunes section. I like it as well as Bobby Casey's of Frankie Gavin's or Kevin Burke's versions, but for different reasons. Besides, Jenny's Welcome probably came to Galway and Clare via Donegal from that other Celtic land across the North Channel....
I agree Brad about the "relaxed & lilted," but most Scottish tunes can be readily "improved" (I can hear the howls from our Scottish fans already ) by playing them in a Clare, Galway, or Sligo style. And the difference between Clare or Sligo or Donegal styles is afterall a matter of personal taste, not quantifiable "best"-ness or "better-than." Some of us actually *like* the Donegal style, even on allegedly Clare tunes
Since we're talking amongst a glut of fiddlers here anyway, the difference in styles is primarily in the bowing, and less in the notes themselves. Yes, we might hear fewer rolls and slurred triplets in the Donegal version, more single bows and a more deliberate attack on the beat, but by and large the melody line will be the same.
Good lord, Dave -- hehe...I was *wondering* when I saw "your" post, which of course turned out to be Kane O'Rourke. It just didn't seem like your writing style at all. What the heck is a "dog nads" tune?
Does anyone know the story behind this tune? Who was Jenny? Who was Charley?
Kevin Glackin was just here in Denver, and during one of the workshops he gave a short "difference between ornamentation and bowing styles" lecture that was fascinating. His "cuts" were different from what I'm familiar with as cuts, being much closer to a roll than the grace note that I'm familiar with, plus he made use of a great deal more bowed triplets. While we all tried the worst bowed triplets you've ever heard in your life, he laughed and told us that we'll be working on them for the next ten years or so, and to not expect to get them until then.
I listened to the free sample lesson in Scoiltrad, and Kevin's bowed triplets (to me) have the same kind of feel and rhythm of a roll, when done on the flute or whistle.
I always thought that "Charlie" referred to Bonnie Prince Charlie, for some reason. Have no idea who Jenny might have been! If the tune originally from Scotland that would make sense. I love the version on De Dannan's album but after a brief try at it a year or so ago I decided it was beyond me. Maybe in ten years when my bowed triplets get better I'll give it another try
That makes as much sense as anything else, Chris! I wonder if it is Scottish?
I love the version on "Doublin'", by the way. I tend towards more Clare style, but if someone could wave a magic wand and make me play exactly like Kevin or Paddy Glackin, I wouldn't exactly fight them off.
I've heard that same Prince Charlie theory, too. But nothing to give it any more credibility.
Ahhh...bowed triplets. Simple really. All you need is lightspeed reflexes, impeccable timing, a delicate touch, a good bow with good hair and perfect rosin, and--for triplets that change notes--a left hand to match. Not to mention 20 years of listening to other fiddlers do them well, and _at least_ 10 years of practice. What's the problem?
Some tips, from someone who's been working on triplets for 20 years:
1. Relax--they're only crisp if you hold the bow softly. Kevin Burke says that the "grip" is the worst possible name for the pad on the stick where your fingers fall. Maybe it should be called the caress or the tickle.
2. Keep the motion as small as possible. A clean triplet happens mostly in the bow-hand index and middle fingers from the big knuckle down and the thumb side of the back of your hand. Yes, you're hand jiggles a little, but if you were holding a full glass of water in that hand, it wouldn't spill if you jiggled it as much as needed to play a triplet. We're talking a couple of millimeters of movement here, and the pinky side moves even less.
3. To get that relaxed, tiny motion, your hand should be dangling down from the wrist, limp as an old dog's nads. (Sorry, but O'Rourke started it....) If you're wrist is bent back or rigid, it won't work. For this reason, it's easier to play triplets from the middle of the bow up toward the tip rather than down near the frog.
Will
P.S. Zina, if my hint above didn't make it clear, put "go" in front of "nads" to unravel O'Rourke's mysterious praise for the tune.
Me either, Zina! But I've noticed that magic wands, not to mention musical gifts from the faires are sadly lacking nowadays. I guess we'll have to make do with lots of good advice (thanks Will!) and more hard work. And if anyone learns the story behind "Jenny's Welcome to Charlie" I'd love to hear it! Could be there isn't one.
Will mentions another story, briefly, in the "Tunes" part of the site, under the comments for this tune.
We will be drowning in fairies, magic wands and all sorts of magic paraphernalia this Christmas in the US, thanks to Harry Potter. We will be longing for the good old "Ticke Me Elmo" days. The only good thing that can come out of this is that, whenever interest in fake/trite magic goes up, Irish music goes up too. :^) I'm looking forward to Riverdance at Hogwarts!
Oh, speaking of resin, one of my classical friends (yup, I call her "Classical Girl") told me about that dustless resin! It's Hill's Jade resin. It's supposed to be expensive, dustless, and hard to find. Ask for it at your nearest violin shop. They'll love you for it, I'm sure. Heh.
I've got bowed triplets on the same note at least to where they don't completely embarrass me to trot out in public, although they're kind of hit or miss at this point still. The triplets that change notes however....aaargh. Most unfortunate.
I love the Potter books, they're great fun. And the movie looks great. But I can't decide whether to go see it or not, simply because I'm one of those people who gets an idea in her head from reading the books and gets really disappointed when movies are different (like, Hermione in the books is supposed to have extra curly, tangly hair). At least I hear the movie follows the book pretty closely. Although that's going to be pretty harsh in the fourth book.
I've an English friend whose mother makes her crazy because she has a thing against Irish people. D'you suppose the reason the Weasley's are always getting tagged for red hair and poverty is because of the old English attitude toward the irish?
Oh, right, bowed triplets! Sorry. Heh. Will, advice on coordinating up the left hand and the right?
Oh, and Kevin also showed us the mock cran on a fiddle, touches of the pinky on the left hand coordinated with singly bowed triplets from the bow. Yipes. Where exactly the pinky touches the string during the triplet escaped me. Does anyone else know? And how did this turn into fiddle ornamentation hell, anyway? *grin*
Thank you, Zina, for asking the question. I was afraid I might be the only one not understanding him...
And Iīm still wondering what "dodgy piano playing" means...
I found when learning bowed triplets ( I play them a lot because they are better than my rolls!) that they are easier to play in hornpipes than in reels. I donīt know why. Maybe itīs because this swinging rhythm has a triplet feel to it already, or because they are played a little slower...
To play them with satisfying results I have to play the first note on a downbow, if I have to play the first note on an upbow the result is usually disappointing... The funny thing about it is that it works as long as I donīt worry about bow directions. As soon as I start trying to think ahead and plan it I will be on an upbow when I arrive at the spot. Itīs always fifty-fifty...
One addition to Willīs perfect explananation: I consciously stiffen the whole bow arm during the triplet. The only thing that moves is the wrist (and/ or the fingers). Itīs like banging the arm into a wall. The energy of the motion is still there but it is projected to the fingertips, where itīs needed at that moment. And it doesnīt work when you try to play with low volume, probably not enough energy there then. So try to play loud!
As far as time goes: I have been playing them for the last seventeen or eighteen years and still havenīt got them to the point where they work every time... I donīt want to discourage anybody. I think the trick is to increase the success rate with practise. Try to play it whenever you want to. When it works be happy, when it does not there will always be another chance.
Jorg (and Zina and Christine and fiddlers all),
Not that my triplets are the picture of consistency or clarity (some nights are better than others), but I've had good results from NOT stiffening the forearm. This came after years of doing it with a stiff arm (in fact, thinking that the locked forearm muscle was responsible for generating the snap to do the triplet), but with mixed results. Then I watched a bunch of great fiddlers up close at a session in Washington D.C.--Eileen Ivers, Paul O'Shaughnessy, Brian Conway, and some wizard I still don't know the name of--and saw that their forearms all stayed loose. Their triplets all came from the hand and fingers--the wrist and arm were as relaxed as during any other change in bow direction. So I've been working on that ever since (2 years now), and it has really helped. Kevin Burke demonstrated the same thing at a workshop here back in September, and a fiddling friend says Martin Hayes (at a fiddle camp) emphasized the relaxed arm too.
Ivers was amazing--perfect triplets with hardly any movement of her bow hand and no tension in the forearm (or anywhere else that I could see). I was maybe 5-10 feet from most of these folks when they were playing, so I could see when muscles and fingers fired. The LACK of effort and tension was what jumped out at me the most.
So...maybe it's part of the learning curve. We focus on that muscle in the forearm that gets sore when we're first learning triplets, but eventually you want to relax that very muscle and let the hand and fingers do the work with much less effort. You'll know you're getting it when your forearm no longer gets tired despite playing bowed triplets all night long. And you can do them soft or loud--that's dependent on bow pressure, not the vigor of the triplet.
Will
Zina, my understanding is that the pinky (or whatever finger(s) you use) can land just about anywhere because you're only tapping the string, not actually pressing it down for a clear, particular pitch. This is the same mindset to carry into your rolls and cut notes--all the finger flicks (and even open strings) that are grace notes to the main tone aren't meant to carry pitch. All they do is interrupt the main tone, breaking it into a series of blips. Of course, our fingers usually go close to where they would land "in position," just out of habit, but the actual placement (and pitch) doesn't matter. Again, I've heard Burke and others explain it this way, and it works in practice.
Just got back from the tunes section and Iīm very curious what a frog might mean in a more `mundane senseī, as you put it... This is threatening to become a great lesson in colloquial English (or is it American?) for me! Canīt comment on the tune though. My ABC sightreading abilities arenīt up to it yet.
Whenever Iīve seen somebody who played like you described it I thought it was just happening to fast to detect the stiffening forearm. It happens at great speed. I remember a particular Donegal fiddler (never learned his name) where I heard those triplets all the time and couldnīt see him play them... Amazing!
The idea with the stiff arm came to me because it worked. Like with many other techniques I stayed with the one that seemed to give the best results. It has done so far. Until somebody mentions a better way. Maybe itīs time for a change again. Iīll try it.
Jörg.
I like H.P. too, Zina, just not enough to buy the hardcover editions.
I just finished reading #3 and now i'm waiting anxiously for #4 to come out in softcover.
Jorg, I can imagine your confusion. I still remember 7th grade German class, everyone dutifully repeating after the teacher such useful real-life phrases as, "Ich kann meine gummischuhe nicht gefinden," and "Haben sie eine gute fahrt!" with about half the boys regularly sent to the hall because they were laughing so hard they were blowing bubbles out their noses....
So...frog, as I meant it when I first blurted it out at the session, is the piece of wood that holds the hair to one end of your bow stick. But frogs also grow from tadpoles into little amphibians, and the image of banging one of them on a sofa was enough to make one guitar player blow beer foam bubbles out of his nose. As for other possible shall we say suggestive interpretations of the simple word frog, I leave that to everyone's own overactive imaginations....
On the stiff arm thing, Jorg, For years, I too thought the sudden tightening of the forearm worked just fine. But I encourage you to work toward minimizing the stopping motion down to the hand and fingers and letting that forearm stay relaxed. It really made a difference in my triplets, and in those of a good fiddler in our session. It's worth a try, and if you don't like the results, it shouldn't keep you from going back to your original approach.
Number 4 (Goblet of Fire) is Rowling's best yet. Let's hope she doesn't get too preachy and full of herself in the following three volumes. I get to read the hardcover because I have young boys with a doting grandma who likes books.
Bowed triplets? I don't know how I do them, but I like to get near the middle of the bow, to get some crunch or articulation into them. If the triplet is taken at the tip of the bow, you might as well just slur the notes together, because the change in bow will be barely distinguishable, unless all three are done on the same note.
Also, in a tune like Harvest Home, (the b-part) one either has to take the triplets beginning sometimes with a down bow, and beginning sometimes with an up bow, or else it becomes necessary to slur one bow across a string crossing.
All this talk about bowed triplets had me getting my fiddle out to experiment and it occurred to me that (duh!) where I was fingering the three seperate note triplets, I could be bowing them instead. Or bowing them sometimes and fingering them other times. Is this the right idea? Course, whatever kind I do from here on out I'm going to be thinking "limp! Nads!!" . Thanks so much for that! As Zina has been known to say....*snort!*
Well...if the limp nads don't work, just bang your frog!
Funny about triplets that move from note to note (e.g., |(3dd^c de fde^c| or |eA (3^cBA eA (3^cBA|)...to my ear, some sound better slurred, and some bowed separately, some broadly (equal spacing between each note), and some with more "tkch." This notion sort of evolved on it own in my playing, without much conscious thought. But now I recognize that I usually only slur triplets that run up the fingerboard (e.g., |(3AB^c defd| and single bow nearly everything else. You can use a slur on these up runs because the fingers are hammering down on the notes, helping articulate them more clearly than if you were pulling off on a downhill run (such as (3^cBA...). Of course, I single bow the uphill runs fairly often, too, just for added punch.
It also depends on what speed you're playing at. Bowed triplets in a slow air can be awkward at best--better to slur them. But in medium paced, quiet little hornpipes or whatever, light bowed triplets give a jauntiness that slurs can't match.
Of course it also depends on whether you're aiming for a Sligo smoothness, a Clare lyricism, or the straightforwardness of the Donegal sound....
Will
I hadn't thought of that, Will! You're right, it is more natural to slur-bow the up triplets and single bow the others, I hadn't really thought about it, I just do it. (Not that my singlebowed triplets are ever used in public at the moment.)
I believe it was Bloomfield who started the whole *snort* thing, and Scott who kept it up. *grin* Don't go blaming it on ME, Chris... hehehe.
Hmmm, interesting. More great info! So far, all my slurred triplets have been downhill. But I don't have many tunes where triplets are used yet. I've just started getting into them because of the Walton's cd/book sets that I just discovered. They seem to use them a lot. "Upstairs in a Tent" is the one I'm trying now from them.
Yep, frog banging, sport of champions! Zina, the first time you e-mailed me and used the *snort* thing I nearly fell off my chair laughing. It was so....descriptive!
This Jenny is apparently the same Jenny as that who is famed for Picking Cockles. Take away all but the first two parts of her Welcome to Charlie, add a sharp or two and Bob's your uncle.......
I took a lesson from a Sligo fiddler who lives here in Denver now name of Marianne Gardiner. We worked on bowed triplets. I haven't been using enough pressure on them. Perhaps that'll help in the future.
Yes, but Chris, look at the situation in which we first e-mailed. Snorting was the only way to deal with it. *snicker*
Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Hi there,
Does anybody have a pointer to a good recording of this tune (preferably fiddle), or a good sheet music setting?
I used to have it on a tape a friend made me but lost it and never knew the performer -- I always meant to learn the tune. Nobody I know plays it, but I really like the tune.
Thanks,
Rich
# Posted on November 13th 2001 by Rich
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Hi, Rich!
Itīs a long time ago, but I think it was recorded by Frankie Gavin on one of the very early De Danaan LPīs, somewhere between 1975 and 1980. But I donīt have the LP, so I donīt know much more about it.
Sheet music of it can be found in OīNeillīs (Revised Ed.).
Jörg!
# Posted on November 13th 2001 by Joerg Froese
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
jennys welcome 2 charlIE is the absolute dogs nads tune, it is my favourite tune, this tune hasent be recorded much, its a big clare tune, bobby casey played it alot. he recorded it on a album called "irish trad. music from clare and galway", who he plays a long with other london based musicians raymon roland/ cant remaember the rest.. but a not source for the tune i think, they only play each part once fof some reason, it sounds a bit rushed, played a bit fast, and its got dodgy piano backing in it. jennys bang on charlie{ as i call it} it best played slow. paddy glackin recorded on an album with loads of sythns in the late seventies with a bloke called jessie? its a very dodgy experimental album...but there is a very good version of jennys on it, paddy glackin is a good source for tunes,
c ya kane orourke here ...do u live in london ? cause i ave got a good version of it, i would love 2 pass it on 2 u?
# Posted on November 13th 2001 by biggus dave
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Hello!
I have this tune in a tape a friend of mine recorded for me. It is played after The Broken Pledge.The version is from De Dananns 2nd LP "Selected jigs+reels+songs" from 1977, Decca records. With Frankie Gavin, Charlie Piggot, Alec Finn, Johnny Monyhinon and Johnny "Ring" McDonagh. It's a very nice tune.
Hope you can find it!
Irina
# Posted on November 13th 2001 by aniri
Paddy Glackin
Violadave, Paddy Glackin did record a cracking version of this tune, but it was on Doublin' - the duet album he recorded in the late 1970s with Paddy Keenan.
The synthy album you are thinking of was with the late Jolyon Jackson, and is called Hidden Ground. Jenny's Welcome is not on it, but it starts with "The Long Note", which actually is a 3-part single jig that was obviously at one time the same tune as Jenny's Welcome and remains an obvious cousin.
(To confuse the matter further, if you listen to a 4-part version of Jenny's Welcome to Charlie recorded by piper Seamus Ennis, it's much closer to The Long Note than the usual fiddle version of Jenny's Welcome as played by Paddy Glackin, De Dannan etc.)
Bobby Casey's version on "Casey in the Cowhouse" is a masterpiece. I also have a couple of versions on old records that are probably impossible to find today - one by Tommy Peoples, and another by a very young Sean Keane on a Comhaltas compilation. Both are exquisite.
It's a great tune traditionally chosen by the best fiddle players to demonstrate what they can do, so tread carefully....
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Thank you,Brother Steve but I can assure you I don't play this tune - the post above was put there by Kane O'Rourke who does play it very well indeed. Cracking tune,though.
Dave
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by biggus dave
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Kathleen Collins album has a great setting of this tune, she plays it in a west clare-galway style. I'm always leary when I hear about Donegal fiddlers try to play Clare Galway specialty tunes. Peoples & Glackin are good for the northern stuff but leave the swingy relaxed stuff to Casey & Gavin.
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Mad Baloney
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Sorry Brad...I just posted something close to Glackin's version in the tunes section. I like it as well as Bobby Casey's of Frankie Gavin's or Kevin Burke's versions, but for different reasons. Besides, Jenny's Welcome probably came to Galway and Clare via Donegal from that other Celtic land across the North Channel....
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Will this tune sounds best relaxed & lilted, perhaps this tune was written in SW Ireland & drifted to the "other celtic nations".
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Mad Baloney
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
I agree Brad about the "relaxed & lilted," but most Scottish tunes can be readily "improved" (I can hear the howls from our Scottish fans already
) by playing them in a Clare, Galway, or Sligo style. And the difference between Clare or Sligo or Donegal styles is afterall a matter of personal taste, not quantifiable "best"-ness or "better-than." Some of us actually *like* the Donegal style, even on allegedly Clare tunes 
Since we're talking amongst a glut of fiddlers here anyway, the difference in styles is primarily in the bowing, and less in the notes themselves. Yes, we might hear fewer rolls and slurred triplets in the Donegal version, more single bows and a more deliberate attack on the beat, but by and large the melody line will be the same.
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Good lord, Dave -- hehe...I was *wondering* when I saw "your" post, which of course turned out to be Kane O'Rourke. It just didn't seem like your writing style at all.
What the heck is a "dog nads" tune?
Does anyone know the story behind this tune? Who was Jenny? Who was Charley?
Kevin Glackin was just here in Denver, and during one of the workshops he gave a short "difference between ornamentation and bowing styles" lecture that was fascinating. His "cuts" were different from what I'm familiar with as cuts, being much closer to a roll than the grace note that I'm familiar with, plus he made use of a great deal more bowed triplets. While we all tried the worst bowed triplets you've ever heard in your life, he laughed and told us that we'll be working on them for the next ten years or so, and to not expect to get them until then.
Zina
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Zina Lee
Bowed triplets
I listened to the free sample lesson in Scoiltrad, and Kevin's bowed triplets (to me) have the same kind of feel and rhythm of a roll, when done on the flute or whistle.
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by glauber
I mean bowed triplets on the same note, of course.
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by glauber
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
He does them the same way on bowed triplets NOT on the same note, Glauber! I'm dreadful at it. Guess I'd better start on that ten year's practice.
zls
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
I always thought that "Charlie" referred to Bonnie Prince Charlie, for some reason. Have no idea who Jenny might have been! If the tune originally from Scotland that would make sense. I love the version on De Dannan's album but after a brief try at it a year or so ago I decided it was beyond me. Maybe in ten years when my bowed triplets get better I'll give it another try
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by soft black stars
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
That makes as much sense as anything else, Chris! I wonder if it is Scottish?
I love the version on "Doublin'", by the way. I tend towards more Clare style, but if someone could wave a magic wand and make me play exactly like Kevin or Paddy Glackin, I wouldn't exactly fight them off.
Zina
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
I've heard that same Prince Charlie theory, too. But nothing to give it any more credibility.
Ahhh...bowed triplets. Simple really. All you need is lightspeed reflexes, impeccable timing, a delicate touch, a good bow with good hair and perfect rosin, and--for triplets that change notes--a left hand to match. Not to mention 20 years of listening to other fiddlers do them well, and _at least_ 10 years of practice. What's the problem?
Some tips, from someone who's been working on triplets for 20 years:
1. Relax--they're only crisp if you hold the bow softly. Kevin Burke says that the "grip" is the worst possible name for the pad on the stick where your fingers fall. Maybe it should be called the caress or the tickle.
2. Keep the motion as small as possible. A clean triplet happens mostly in the bow-hand index and middle fingers from the big knuckle down and the thumb side of the back of your hand. Yes, you're hand jiggles a little, but if you were holding a full glass of water in that hand, it wouldn't spill if you jiggled it as much as needed to play a triplet. We're talking a couple of millimeters of movement here, and the pinky side moves even less.
3. To get that relaxed, tiny motion, your hand should be dangling down from the wrist, limp as an old dog's nads. (Sorry, but O'Rourke started it....) If you're wrist is bent back or rigid, it won't work. For this reason, it's easier to play triplets from the middle of the bow up toward the tip rather than down near the frog.
Will
P.S. Zina, if my hint above didn't make it clear, put "go" in front of "nads" to unravel O'Rourke's mysterious praise for the tune.
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Did I mention that the notes are now in the tunes section?
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Me either, Zina! But I've noticed that magic wands, not to mention musical gifts from the faires are sadly lacking nowadays. I guess we'll have to make do with lots of good advice (thanks Will!) and more hard work. And if anyone learns the story behind "Jenny's Welcome to Charlie" I'd love to hear it! Could be there isn't one.
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by soft black stars
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Will mentions another story, briefly, in the "Tunes" part of the site, under the comments for this tune.
We will be drowning in fairies, magic wands and all sorts of magic paraphernalia this Christmas in the US, thanks to Harry Potter. We will be longing for the good old "Ticke Me Elmo" days. The only good thing that can come out of this is that, whenever interest in fake/trite magic goes up, Irish music goes up too. :^) I'm looking forward to Riverdance at Hogwarts!
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by glauber
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Oh, speaking of resin, one of my classical friends (yup, I call her "Classical Girl") told me about that dustless resin! It's Hill's Jade resin. It's supposed to be expensive, dustless, and hard to find.
Ask for it at your nearest violin shop. They'll love you for it, I'm sure. Heh.
I've got bowed triplets on the same note at least to where they don't completely embarrass me to trot out in public, although they're kind of hit or miss at this point still. The triplets that change notes however....aaargh. Most unfortunate.
I love the Potter books, they're great fun. And the movie looks great. But I can't decide whether to go see it or not, simply because I'm one of those people who gets an idea in her head from reading the books and gets really disappointed when movies are different (like, Hermione in the books is supposed to have extra curly, tangly hair). At least I hear the movie follows the book pretty closely. Although that's going to be pretty harsh in the fourth book.
I've an English friend whose mother makes her crazy because she has a thing against Irish people. D'you suppose the reason the Weasley's are always getting tagged for red hair and poverty is because of the old English attitude toward the irish?
Oh, right, bowed triplets! Sorry. Heh. Will, advice on coordinating up the left hand and the right?
Oh, and Kevin also showed us the mock cran on a fiddle, touches of the pinky on the left hand coordinated with singly bowed triplets from the bow. Yipes. Where exactly the pinky touches the string during the triplet escaped me. Does anyone else know? And how did this turn into fiddle ornamentation hell, anyway? *grin*
zls
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Zina Lee
P.S.
So, a dog's nads tune is GOOD? Wow. It boggles the mind. *grin*
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Thank you, Zina, for asking the question. I was afraid I might be the only one not understanding him...
And Iīm still wondering what "dodgy piano playing" means...
I found when learning bowed triplets ( I play them a lot because they are better than my rolls!) that they are easier to play in hornpipes than in reels. I donīt know why. Maybe itīs because this swinging rhythm has a triplet feel to it already, or because they are played a little slower...
To play them with satisfying results I have to play the first note on a downbow, if I have to play the first note on an upbow the result is usually disappointing... The funny thing about it is that it works as long as I donīt worry about bow directions. As soon as I start trying to think ahead and plan it I will be on an upbow when I arrive at the spot. Itīs always fifty-fifty...
One addition to Willīs perfect explananation: I consciously stiffen the whole bow arm during the triplet. The only thing that moves is the wrist (and/ or the fingers). Itīs like banging the arm into a wall. The energy of the motion is still there but it is projected to the fingertips, where itīs needed at that moment. And it doesnīt work when you try to play with low volume, probably not enough energy there then. So try to play loud!
As far as time goes: I have been playing them for the last seventeen or eighteen years and still havenīt got them to the point where they work every time... I donīt want to discourage anybody. I think the trick is to increase the success rate with practise. Try to play it whenever you want to. When it works be happy, when it does not there will always be another chance.
Jörg!
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Joerg Froese
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Jorg (and Zina and Christine and fiddlers all),
Not that my triplets are the picture of consistency or clarity (some nights are better than others), but I've had good results from NOT stiffening the forearm. This came after years of doing it with a stiff arm (in fact, thinking that the locked forearm muscle was responsible for generating the snap to do the triplet), but with mixed results. Then I watched a bunch of great fiddlers up close at a session in Washington D.C.--Eileen Ivers, Paul O'Shaughnessy, Brian Conway, and some wizard I still don't know the name of--and saw that their forearms all stayed loose. Their triplets all came from the hand and fingers--the wrist and arm were as relaxed as during any other change in bow direction. So I've been working on that ever since (2 years now), and it has really helped. Kevin Burke demonstrated the same thing at a workshop here back in September, and a fiddling friend says Martin Hayes (at a fiddle camp) emphasized the relaxed arm too.
Ivers was amazing--perfect triplets with hardly any movement of her bow hand and no tension in the forearm (or anywhere else that I could see). I was maybe 5-10 feet from most of these folks when they were playing, so I could see when muscles and fingers fired. The LACK of effort and tension was what jumped out at me the most.
So...maybe it's part of the learning curve. We focus on that muscle in the forearm that gets sore when we're first learning triplets, but eventually you want to relax that very muscle and let the hand and fingers do the work with much less effort. You'll know you're getting it when your forearm no longer gets tired despite playing bowed triplets all night long. And you can do them soft or loud--that's dependent on bow pressure, not the vigor of the triplet.
Will
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Will CPT
Crans on fiddle
Zina, my understanding is that the pinky (or whatever finger(s) you use) can land just about anywhere because you're only tapping the string, not actually pressing it down for a clear, particular pitch. This is the same mindset to carry into your rolls and cut notes--all the finger flicks (and even open strings) that are grace notes to the main tone aren't meant to carry pitch. All they do is interrupt the main tone, breaking it into a series of blips. Of course, our fingers usually go close to where they would land "in position," just out of habit, but the actual placement (and pitch) doesn't matter. Again, I've heard Burke and others explain it this way, and it works in practice.
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Thanks, Will.
Just got back from the tunes section and Iīm very curious what a frog might mean in a more `mundane senseī, as you put it... This is threatening to become a great lesson in colloquial English (or is it American?) for me! Canīt comment on the tune though. My ABC sightreading abilities arenīt up to it yet.
Whenever Iīve seen somebody who played like you described it I thought it was just happening to fast to detect the stiffening forearm. It happens at great speed. I remember a particular Donegal fiddler (never learned his name) where I heard those triplets all the time and couldnīt see him play them... Amazing!
The idea with the stiff arm came to me because it worked. Like with many other techniques I stayed with the one that seemed to give the best results. It has done so far. Until somebody mentions a better way. Maybe itīs time for a change again. Iīll try it.
Jörg.
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Joerg Froese
Harry Potter
I like H.P. too, Zina, just not enough to buy the hardcover editions.
I just finished reading #3 and now i'm waiting anxiously for #4 to come out in softcover.
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by glauber
Mundane Frogs
Jorg, I can imagine your confusion. I still remember 7th grade German class, everyone dutifully repeating after the teacher such useful real-life phrases as, "Ich kann meine gummischuhe nicht gefinden," and "Haben sie eine gute fahrt!" with about half the boys regularly sent to the hall because they were laughing so hard they were blowing bubbles out their noses....
So...frog, as I meant it when I first blurted it out at the session, is the piece of wood that holds the hair to one end of your bow stick. But frogs also grow from tadpoles into little amphibians, and the image of banging one of them on a sofa was enough to make one guitar player blow beer foam bubbles out of his nose. As for other possible shall we say suggestive interpretations of the simple word frog, I leave that to everyone's own overactive imaginations....
On the stiff arm thing, Jorg, For years, I too thought the sudden tightening of the forearm worked just fine. But I encourage you to work toward minimizing the stopping motion down to the hand and fingers and letting that forearm stay relaxed. It really made a difference in my triplets, and in those of a good fiddler in our session. It's worth a try, and if you don't like the results, it shouldn't keep you from going back to your original approach.
Will
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Will CPT
Potter
Number 4 (Goblet of Fire) is Rowling's best yet. Let's hope she doesn't get too preachy and full of herself in the following three volumes. I get to read the hardcover because I have young boys with a doting grandma who likes books.
Hermoine rules!
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Bowed triplets? I don't know how I do them, but I like to get near the middle of the bow, to get some crunch or articulation into them. If the triplet is taken at the tip of the bow, you might as well just slur the notes together, because the change in bow will be barely distinguishable, unless all three are done on the same note.
Also, in a tune like Harvest Home, (the b-part) one either has to take the triplets beginning sometimes with a down bow, and beginning sometimes with an up bow, or else it becomes necessary to slur one bow across a string crossing.
# Posted on November 14th 2001 by scottythefiddler
Bowed Triplets
All this talk about bowed triplets had me getting my fiddle out to experiment and it occurred to me that (duh!) where I was fingering the three seperate note triplets, I could be bowing them instead. Or bowing them sometimes and fingering them other times. Is this the right idea? Course, whatever kind I do from here on out I'm going to be thinking "limp! Nads!!" . Thanks so much for that! As Zina has been known to say....*snort!*
# Posted on November 15th 2001 by soft black stars
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Well...if the limp nads don't work, just bang your frog!
Funny about triplets that move from note to note (e.g., |(3dd^c de fde^c| or |eA (3^cBA eA (3^cBA|)...to my ear, some sound better slurred, and some bowed separately, some broadly (equal spacing between each note), and some with more "tkch." This notion sort of evolved on it own in my playing, without much conscious thought. But now I recognize that I usually only slur triplets that run up the fingerboard (e.g., |(3AB^c defd| and single bow nearly everything else. You can use a slur on these up runs because the fingers are hammering down on the notes, helping articulate them more clearly than if you were pulling off on a downhill run (such as (3^cBA...). Of course, I single bow the uphill runs fairly often, too, just for added punch.
It also depends on what speed you're playing at. Bowed triplets in a slow air can be awkward at best--better to slur them. But in medium paced, quiet little hornpipes or whatever, light bowed triplets give a jauntiness that slurs can't match.
Of course it also depends on whether you're aiming for a Sligo smoothness, a Clare lyricism, or the straightforwardness of the Donegal sound....
Will
# Posted on November 15th 2001 by Will CPT
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
I hadn't thought of that, Will! You're right, it is more natural to slur-bow the up triplets and single bow the others, I hadn't really thought about it, I just do it. (Not that my singlebowed triplets are ever used in public at the moment.)
I believe it was Bloomfield who started the whole *snort* thing, and Scott who kept it up. *grin* Don't go blaming it on ME, Chris... hehehe.
zls
# Posted on November 16th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
Hmmm, interesting. More great info! So far, all my slurred triplets have been downhill. But I don't have many tunes where triplets are used yet. I've just started getting into them because of the Walton's cd/book sets that I just discovered. They seem to use them a lot. "Upstairs in a Tent" is the one I'm trying now from them.
Yep, frog banging, sport of champions! Zina, the first time you e-mailed me and used the *snort* thing I nearly fell off my chair laughing. It was so....descriptive!
# Posted on November 16th 2001 by soft black stars
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
This Jenny is apparently the same Jenny as that who is famed for Picking Cockles. Take away all but the first two parts of her Welcome to Charlie, add a sharp or two and Bob's your uncle.......
# Posted on November 17th 2001 by granama
Re: Jennny's Welcome to Charley
That Jenny. She sure gets round.
I took a lesson from a Sligo fiddler who lives here in Denver now name of Marianne Gardiner. We worked on bowed triplets. I haven't been using enough pressure on them. Perhaps that'll help in the future.
Yes, but Chris, look at the situation in which we first e-mailed. Snorting was the only way to deal with it. *snicker*
Zina
# Posted on November 17th 2001 by Zina Lee