Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
if you knew your history of trad in the US you'd know that these kind of fusions with trad and jazz musicians were very common then.
The point I'm making is that lots of people get all stuck up about people who experiment with things in the tradition but as this illustrates experimentation has always been an important part of the tradition, it's what keeps it alive.
Still I don't think this was anything more than a bit of light hearted entertainment, the musicians are clearly having fun and what's wrong with that?!!
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I do enjoy adventureous combinations of musics in the alchemic sense of things. I do experiment but leave that sort of playing at home, not in a common session.
Nonetheless, it can have a tendency to make a session drag and upset the host.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
The Transcriber has been very vague here.
When you say "They've been doing it since the 1920's," you mean that traditional players were mixing Irish music and Jazz? If you mean the addition of piano and guitar accompaniment and the occasional saxophone that actually played the tune (as close as possible I might add) than I think that you haven't really done your listening and you might be taking someone else's word for this.
Some of the instrumentation was incorporated alright, but as far as fusing the two styles.... No, that has been a recent phenomena, and it's grotesque in many ways.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
"Some of the instrumentation was incorporated alright, but as far as fusing the two styles.... No, that has been a recent phenomena, and it's grotesque in many ways."
Did you listen to the track I posted sailor?
The swing and general rhythm and the backing on the track is clearly derived from swing jazz. In fact the whole piano backing style that developed around then that you hear on many recordings claiming to be 'pure' and 'traditional' was clearly influenced by swing jazz.
Cosmic Ray, experimentation has always been an important part of the tradition, all you have to do is compare a handful of different players to hear the different styles, ornamentations, rhythms and approaches to variations, how did all this come about other than through experimentation? If people didn't experiment it would all sound the same, I guess this is why some Comhaltas bred players often sound the same, they're not encouraged to experiment and thus find their own voice in the music.
Aside from this the addition of regulators to the pipes, the introduction of instruments like concertina, accordion, banjo, guitar and piano etc., are all a result of some sort of experimentation because there was a point in the history of this music where none of those instruments were used.
The addition of certain dance forms to the tradition is another form of experimentation. It's common to hear Mazurka's played in sessions nowadays but there was a time when they weren't played at all.
All sorts of instruments were used in trad back in the 1920's including clarinet, piccolo and saxophone. The sounds and styles they developed then wouldn't really work in a session today but the point is the session as we know it is a very recent phenomenon in terms of the history of the tradition and is itself another example of 'experimentation'. The whole idea of a large group of people playing the music together is somewhat against the original nature of what was primarily a soloists tradition.
Go find yourself some old archive recordings of players like Killoran, Neillidh Boyle, Con Cassidy, Leo Rowsome, Paddy Canny, Tommy Potts, Padraig O'Keeffe etc. In them you'll hear a great wealth of individuality and experimentation that very few players dare to develop today.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
More power to those who want to push boundaries and experiment. Still, the music I find most satisfying is not that where people are trying to be different, it's the stuff where they can't seem to play it any other way.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Sigh, all the great players of the past pushed boundaries and experimented in some way, that's how they found their own voice, they didn't necessarily find their own style by mixing with jazz musicians or the like but still they found their own way through experimenting, be it conscious experimentation or not.
The whole idea that musicians just magically developed a style without actually thinking about it in some way is a joke. Most of the top players through the ages were intelligent people who thought seriously about the music. If people didn't think about what they were doing they'd all sound the same, which is exactly what's happening nowadays.
Even Tansey agrees with that as he said as much on the programme 'Canúintí Ceoil' a while back.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
All valid points Transcriber. You are right. The accompaniment is swingy. But Killoran was not playing Jazz, Trazz or anything of the kind.
I have listened to that track and all the other tracks of Killoran's big band stuff and everything else Killoran recorded bar a few tracks.
I think the word Jazz must have been the word that threw me. His accompanists on those big band tracks were definitely swingy as were some of Morrison's but they don't sound jazzy. Jazz is something different to me, something more blues derived. I don't really like those big band tracks of his, his accompaniment was very commercial and appealing to the masses.
I don't think all accompaniment was influenced directly by Jazz as you say. Out of the tradition yes, but a conscious effort to incorporate the two, I really don't think so.
And more to the point, Kilorran is not playing jazz there nor was his fiddle playing influenced by Jazz, nor Morrison's nor Coleman's and he was the first to have guitar accompaniment. The Jazzy Trad players of today have not only brought in Swingy backing but they have used Jazz style improv into Irish music which sounds cat.
Experimentation yes, but to a detrimental degree, and not comparable to the experimentation of Killoran, Neillidh Boyle, Con Cassidy, Leo Rowsome, Paddy Canny, Tommy Potts, Padraig O'Keeffe etc.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Some good points here. As far as experimenting goes, the word itself conjures up all kinds of weird images in my head! I think the important thing to consider is the degree to which the experimentation takes place - is it within the tradition or pulling from other sources. In the context of early 20th century Irish music the first piano players were studio musicians with little if any experience of Irish music and pretty much invented accompaniment in ITM, save for regulators on the pipes, or the harp. So they had to rely on what they knew - be it jazz, classical, swing, etc. Some done an extremely good job.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Killoran stayed well within the bounds of traditional music, I have a few tapes of recordings he sent over to Clare around 1960 as well as material he recorded here on his visits. The only thing swingey about anything there may be your man McKenna on the electric guitar. The lp with a late incarnation of the band doesn't sound anything like this 78 either.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
"I don't think all accompaniment was influenced directly by Jazz as you say. Out of the tradition yes, but a conscious effort to incorporate the two, I really don't think so."
I would agree - there's not much *jazz* in there, per se. The choice of instrumentation borrows from the popular dance bands of the day, which were jazz-influenced - no doubt, many of the musicians in Killoran's orchestra also played in mainstream dance bands.
Was Killoran responsible for all the orchestration? If so, he clearly had a better understanding of how to marry traditional tunes with chords than most of the 'accompanists' that appeared on early Irish music recordings.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
...The fact that it was done a long time ago doesn't make it 'traditional', any more than it was 'traditional' back then. If Paddy Killoran had started a trend of playing Irish traditional music with dance band accompaniment, which had gained such popularity as to become the norm, and that had continued, unbroken, to the present day, then it might feasibly vie for the title of 'traditional'.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Speaking as a backup musician/accompanist who plays piano and bass, I usually try to make what I am playing fit together with whatever rhythm the melody player or players decide to use and the rhythm depends on what type of music we are playing.
The pianist and composer Eubie Blake (who was born in 1883 and died in 1983), never would use the word "jazz" to describe music because he was taught that it was a vulgar term with dirty sexual connotations.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I've so far heard little by way of jazz interacting with trad that's impressed me, and then it's been jazz and trad playing side by side, but not fusion. This includes:
Swing accompaniment with *some* tunes, *sometimes*;
Moving Hearts' air A Tribute To Peadar O'Donnell, played first on pipes and then on sax - really impressive, IMO, because it's an impressive air (but I found much of their stuff tedious);
The odd track by Kathryn Tickell, along with The Brazz Brothers or Andy Sheppard.
I think there are trad tunes - possibly mainly pensive ones - that a good, brass-based jazz band could treat really impressively without destroying their essence, but I don't remember having heard this done. (I've a feeling they do this more in the Balkans...)
Our American cousins may know the most about linking up trad with jazz - and what can mix and what can't - as musos must have played Old Time and jazz there at fairly close quarters for a very long time.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
People from Bob Wills to Willie Johnson were mixing jazz and trad fiddle tunes long before anyone noticed or cared much. i.e before the Blessed Folk Revival. Anyone who mixed jazz and folk after the BFR was considered an innovative ground-breaking fusion artist doing something that nobody had ever heard before and possibly a threat to the very existence of Traditional Music
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Ah you're a funny old bunch, so easy to get ye worked up about something......
I posted this track and discussion as a bit of provocative fun, I generally prefer solo playing myself and am not too found of jazz style variations on tunes and all that but still I'm open-minded and think people should just be given freedom to try new things out without fear of ridicule from self-appointed keepers of the tradition.
This track just goes to show that one of the old acknowledged masters of the tradition was open to these things and while some of these experiments might be disastrous, others end up being wonderful.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
The clarinet was a main instrument of Danish trad in the old days. To me this has nothing to do with jazz, just an uncommon instrument in Irish trad...
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I believe clarinets come in different key arrangements and tunings, and maybe clarinet tradheads in particular places have preference for one or another sort - maybe different from what jazzers or modern Classical musos might use, though I wouldn't know.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
The clarinet evolved through different key systems like the flute.
Today there are two main ones - Boehm and Deutsches System. Some
New Orleans-style trad players like using the Albert System. In classical,
some people are using recreated early Classical instruments with only
a couple of keys on them for authenticity with Mozart and Beethoven.
I don't know much about these instruments.
If I play Irish Trad on the clarinet, I would use an A clarinet because
the keys of D and G sit easily on it (fingered as F and Bb) and it has a
darker
sound.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
amongthelillies has his head in the sand! I think you're the only one who thinks I meant that particularly track kept the tradition alive!!! The tradition has been kept alive by players continually coming up with new ways of expressing themselves, most of the acknowledged masters of the tradition did something new.
As I said posting that track was a bit of provocative fun. Oh and if you want an even more extreme example of an older mix of jazz styles and trad check out the Flanagan Brothers. The whole concept is old swing jazz style backing with the tunes, there's even a saxophone. John Carty's band At the Racket is a tribute to them. They've some hilarious songs which mix swing jazz style singing and backing with trad melodies.
I do think continuo is right in thinking the word jazz is throwing people. I'm not talking about Miles Davis or John Coltrane here, I mean old swing jazz from the 1920's, it clearly had an important influence on Irish American trad musicians. There are loads of recordings with a kind of swing band backing and with clarinets and saxes and guitars and banjos strumming and the whole trad piano oompah style definitely came from swing jazz.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Lads, fact is, these people were making a living, Killoran's orchestra played in his own 'saloon' and was meant to draw the punters. So what did he, and Flanagan's, do? Yes he played popular music as well as Irish music and mixed it a bit. Experimentation? Keeping the tradition alive? Bonkers. Making a living, being practical, being a child of his time. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing different from PJ Murrihy and god knows what other popular dance group out there that mixes in a bit of C&W and a few pop songs for the audience(today's popular music).
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
thats it kilfarboy.
i think you're being a bit naive transcriber. from the things you say it comes across to me as if you're misinterpreting it. what you're saying is that it is stuff like that that kept music alive, well thats like saying that nowadays it is things like that 'music for a found harmonium' dance track that will keep the music alive. thats wrong, i wouldn't call either experimentation, in both cases its essentially the same tune and in both its simply to make money as kilfarboy said. if you thought that the piano backers for example were being revolutionary in the way they accompanied, then no, its because they would not have at all been used to backing irish music rythms and melodies. its not fusion, it was an attempt to accompany a type of music that was alien to them. as far as 'at the racket 'goes, i dont think having a saxophone makes them fusion. there were plenty of ceili bands with saxophone, thats like saying de danann is a mixture of irish and greek music simply because alec finn plays a greek bouzouki. no. maybe at the rackets songs that are from that time may very have been influenced by swing jazz but looking at most songs from that era, most of which were songs sung regularly back in ireland, its doubtful that there was much influence. i would think its foolish to say that music like the one on the track was responsible for the music today, simply because there are far more influential recordings of the same musician and other musicians also.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
The thing is, traditional music does not, neither then or now, exist in a vacuum. There has always been and there will always be interaction with other elements of popular culture. Traditional singers have always sung popular songs alongside traditional ones. I have heard singers sing big Child ballads only to follow them by 'Red river Valley', Nothing strange or experimental about it.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
As well as that, transcriber thinks that just because it was in the 1920s or 30s that everyone was more traditional. Dropping names like Killoran and The Flanagans to show how Jazzy those old players could be with there interpretations. Did it ever dawn on him that there were traditionalists or purists (for a lack of a better word) back then and also people who were not so 'purist'.
There has always been the purist element in Irish music, and there have always been people who play Irish music who will absorb popular music and dish out Irish music in a pseudo pop Irish way.
I agree with C-Ray, I think the transcriber is a numb nuts, but he probably has a job as a professor of Irish music somewhere. He likes to drop these names but he hasn't listened to the music.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I think a lot of the 'jazz' that the 'purists' have issue with being cross-pollinated with trad music didn't even exist as a music or element of the 'jazz' genre back in the 20s/30s.
The people that come up on discussions that some members have a go at and call untraditional (like Ivers, etc.) do not take their foreign influences from ragtime, dixieland or Swing, which were the predominant jazz styles of that age and location. Their music is influenced by much more modern sub-genres within the collective term 'Jazz'. Also these influences have more more of an effect on their melodic ornamentation and variation, whereas the examples you site from the 20s had the foreign element influencing predominately the backing.
Like the term 'classical' music, Jazz encompasses an awful lot of different musical styles within it. It's a general term that ranges from Lassus and Palestrina all the way to shockhausen and Steve Reich. Jazz is the same; a wide range of music falls under that one name. I don't you fully grasp that; you apply the terminology so liberally.
Kilfarboy has got it pretty much on the nose. You should take stock.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
'what you're saying is that it is stuff like that that kept music alive'
Jesus H Christ, no that is not what I'm saying!!! If you read my post directly before your post you'll see I wrote
'I think you're the only one who thinks I meant that particularly track kept the tradition alive!!! The tradition has been kept alive by players continually coming up with new ways of expressing themselves, most of the acknowledged masters of the tradition did something new.'
As I said this track is no more than a bit of fun, but I find it interesting all the same, it shows an historical precedent for a great and respected musician doing something outside of what people might consider 'traditional' that's all.
I'd ask you all to read that post again before all jumping on my back and telling me I'm an idiot. I guess you all just don't like being provoked........
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I think you have it wrong there, there was nothing to provoke there in that track. It was an American based dance band from the first half or so of the 20th century.
I am not provoked either by the 1950 re-makes of some McKenna flute 78s with a background of brushed drum and bass, I am not provoked by Dan Sullivan's piano introduction of The Blackbird, I love it actually. McKenna's electric swing guitar that backed Killoran, well I don't find it provoking but I don't like it much. The Old Ireland Quartet's use of the cello? The Kilfenora playing the Blue Bell polka on sax? Nah, at the end of the day it's just bands playing for dances, nothing particularly innovative, nothing much that lasted.
Tommy Potts incorporating all sorts of things, now that's more challenging and (thought) provoking.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
It probably doesn't provoke you kilfarboy because you know all about that music and obviously have a very good knowledge of it which I respect completely.
I'm not saying this track is particularly amazing or anything, I mean how many times do I have to say it. I just put it there as a way of showing that back then people were mixing trad with all sorts of instrumental combinations and different backing styles because it was fun, nowadays if people do it they tend to get slated because it's not 'traditional' even though the Ceili Band itself developed from this old swing jazz mix. That's the one thing that has lasted from that era for better or worse.
As I said it was meant to be a bit of provocative fun but some people didn't see it that way and took it way too seriously. Then I suppose I got a bit caught up in that myself because people were completely misquoting and misinterpreting me.
Anyway, I've had enough of all this nonsense, think I'll just get back to transcribing..........
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I don't think you can necessarily say 'the' ceiliband developed from the swing jazz mix.
US based dance bands like Killoran's are a local development and I wouldn't class them as 'Ceili' bands. I am not so sure the development of the Ceiliband in Ireland is rooted in 'Jazz/swing' as quite a few of the early bands in Ireland were set up by the local PP to provide (relatively) healthy entertainment in the parish halls, in other words to keep the parishioners away from the 'jungle music' of the commercial dance hall.
I don't think there were a lot of traditional musicians who had a foot in both camps, unlike Liam Walsh who recorded many 78 rpms as a piper but also played the sax in his own dance band. I am told though he kept the two kinds of music quite separate though.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
'I don't think you can necessarily say 'the' ceiliband developed from the swing jazz mix.'
Well it did according to Sean O'Riada, who hated Ceili Bands and decried the introduction of what he called a jazz rhythm section to the music.
People in Ireland heard all those old records being produced in the US and some were hugely influenced by them, that's how all the Michael Coleman clones developed and also most likely how the idea of a piano, drum kit and a bass backing the music in a ceili band situation developed.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
This is great great great. Transcriber is doomed for life on this forum. He can change his user name but until he learns to shut his trap he'll be spotted a mile a way. Goon on ye all!!!!
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Yes, some were a bit harder on Transcriber than he deserved, that's what I think anyway. It's very easy to keep saying someone is out of his depth and all that. It's more useful to discuss things and exchange information than it is to shoot someone down. it's harder too because your risk being shot down in turn.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I have nothing against transcriber's posting this Killoran (?) track - I was interested to hear it - nor against his other comments. The matter of how ITM and related trads change in their treatment of the music, or mix or hybridise with other traditions, is something I enjoy mulling over. With experiments of the latter kind, I judge whether one works or doesn't, not whether or not it should have been made.
I don't believe that every great player has necessarily invented a technique or individual style previously unheard that many have thereafter used - though I don't doubt that some have. Nor do novelties or novelty combinations make players great, though great players can involve themselves in such. I'd put the Killoran track in this category - of passing historical interest, but not an important signpost in the history of ITM and its influences from other music, and not *in itself* proof that Killoran was a trailblazer. The jazz element there was too mild and separate for me to see it as a jazz / ITM collaboration, let alone hybrid.
But thanks, transcriber - even if you've gone - for bringing it to our notice.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Who in their right mind would ever want to come from Eton or HARROW?
Transcriber put it up as a point, not a question. It is expected that the retorts he got were argumentative in nature. In fairness, most of the replies were informative, well articulated and addressed the subject matter in question. Fair play to Kilfarboy; he disagreed and put his point across well. If this site has any worth other than discussing bridges from cheap banjos, it will derive from people talking about the tradition in an informative way, with valid examples to back them up.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Well it did according to Sean O'Riada, who hated Ceili Bands and decried the introduction of what he called a jazz rhythm section to the music.
People in Ireland heard all those old records being produced in the US and some were hugely influenced by them, that's how all the Michael Coleman clones developed and also most likely how the idea of a piano, drum kit and a bass backing the music in a ceili band situation developed.
*The problem with taking Ó Riada at face value is that he talked a lot of nonsense, and many of his comments (like this) were totally uninformed. But it's understandable that people would take his comments as authoritative given his status in traditional music.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I am reading an excellent book that touches on the mixing of jazz and trad in the old dance halls of Boston. It is called "See You at the Hall: Boston's Golden Age of Irish Music and Dance," by Susan Gedutis, with an introduction by Mick Moloney. Extensive interviews of musicians like Joe Derrane who played trad, played swing, and mixed trad and swing. Highly recommended!!!!
......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
They've been doing it since the 1920's, that's longer than pub sessions have been in existence!
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=22836
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
if you knew your history of trad in the US you'd know that these kind of fusions with trad and jazz musicians were very common then.
The point I'm making is that lots of people get all stuck up about people who experiment with things in the tradition but as this illustrates experimentation has always been an important part of the tradition, it's what keeps it alive.
Still I don't think this was anything more than a bit of light hearted entertainment, the musicians are clearly having fun and what's wrong with that?!!
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I do enjoy adventureous combinations of musics in the alchemic sense of things. I do experiment but leave that sort of playing at home, not in a common session.
Nonetheless, it can have a tendency to make a session drag and upset the host.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=wul2qgpq_4g&NR=1
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9g7w284jOM&feature=related
or Glenn Miller's Orchestra playing Little Brown Jug or American Patrol
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by snorre
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
The Transcriber has been very vague here.
When you say "They've been doing it since the 1920's," you mean that traditional players were mixing Irish music and Jazz? If you mean the addition of piano and guitar accompaniment and the occasional saxophone that actually played the tune (as close as possible I might add) than I think that you haven't really done your listening and you might be taking someone else's word for this.
Some of the instrumentation was incorporated alright, but as far as fusing the two styles.... No, that has been a recent phenomena, and it's grotesque in many ways.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by The Sailor on the Rock
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
"and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?"
Seamus Tansey actually.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Gerry1972
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
"Some of the instrumentation was incorporated alright, but as far as fusing the two styles.... No, that has been a recent phenomena, and it's grotesque in many ways."
Did you listen to the track I posted sailor?
The swing and general rhythm and the backing on the track is clearly derived from swing jazz. In fact the whole piano backing style that developed around then that you hear on many recordings claiming to be 'pure' and 'traditional' was clearly influenced by swing jazz.
Cosmic Ray, experimentation has always been an important part of the tradition, all you have to do is compare a handful of different players to hear the different styles, ornamentations, rhythms and approaches to variations, how did all this come about other than through experimentation? If people didn't experiment it would all sound the same, I guess this is why some Comhaltas bred players often sound the same, they're not encouraged to experiment and thus find their own voice in the music.
Aside from this the addition of regulators to the pipes, the introduction of instruments like concertina, accordion, banjo, guitar and piano etc., are all a result of some sort of experimentation because there was a point in the history of this music where none of those instruments were used.
The addition of certain dance forms to the tradition is another form of experimentation. It's common to hear Mazurka's played in sessions nowadays but there was a time when they weren't played at all.
All sorts of instruments were used in trad back in the 1920's including clarinet, piccolo and saxophone. The sounds and styles they developed then wouldn't really work in a session today but the point is the session as we know it is a very recent phenomenon in terms of the history of the tradition and is itself another example of 'experimentation'. The whole idea of a large group of people playing the music together is somewhat against the original nature of what was primarily a soloists tradition.
Go find yourself some old archive recordings of players like Killoran, Neillidh Boyle, Con Cassidy, Leo Rowsome, Paddy Canny, Tommy Potts, Padraig O'Keeffe etc. In them you'll hear a great wealth of individuality and experimentation that very few players dare to develop today.
Lecture over........
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
More power to those who want to push boundaries and experiment. Still, the music I find most satisfying is not that where people are trying to be different, it's the stuff where they can't seem to play it any other way.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by fidkid
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Sigh, all the great players of the past pushed boundaries and experimented in some way, that's how they found their own voice, they didn't necessarily find their own style by mixing with jazz musicians or the like but still they found their own way through experimenting, be it conscious experimentation or not.
The whole idea that musicians just magically developed a style without actually thinking about it in some way is a joke. Most of the top players through the ages were intelligent people who thought seriously about the music. If people didn't think about what they were doing they'd all sound the same, which is exactly what's happening nowadays.
Even Tansey agrees with that as he said as much on the programme 'Canúintí Ceoil' a while back.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
All valid points Transcriber. You are right. The accompaniment is swingy. But Killoran was not playing Jazz, Trazz or anything of the kind.
I have listened to that track and all the other tracks of Killoran's big band stuff and everything else Killoran recorded bar a few tracks.
I think the word Jazz must have been the word that threw me. His accompanists on those big band tracks were definitely swingy as were some of Morrison's but they don't sound jazzy. Jazz is something different to me, something more blues derived. I don't really like those big band tracks of his, his accompaniment was very commercial and appealing to the masses.
I don't think all accompaniment was influenced directly by Jazz as you say. Out of the tradition yes, but a conscious effort to incorporate the two, I really don't think so.
And more to the point, Kilorran is not playing jazz there nor was his fiddle playing influenced by Jazz, nor Morrison's nor Coleman's and he was the first to have guitar accompaniment. The Jazzy Trad players of today have not only brought in Swingy backing but they have used Jazz style improv into Irish music which sounds cat.
Experimentation yes, but to a detrimental degree, and not comparable to the experimentation of Killoran, Neillidh Boyle, Con Cassidy, Leo Rowsome, Paddy Canny, Tommy Potts, Padraig O'Keeffe etc.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by The Sailor on the Rock
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Some good points here. As far as experimenting goes, the word itself conjures up all kinds of weird images in my head! I think the important thing to consider is the degree to which the experimentation takes place - is it within the tradition or pulling from other sources. In the context of early 20th century Irish music the first piano players were studio musicians with little if any experience of Irish music and pretty much invented accompaniment in ITM, save for regulators on the pipes, or the harp. So they had to rely on what they knew - be it jazz, classical, swing, etc. Some done an extremely good job.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Gerry1972
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Killoran stayed well within the bounds of traditional music, I have a few tapes of recordings he sent over to Clare around 1960 as well as material he recorded here on his visits. The only thing swingey about anything there may be your man McKenna on the electric guitar. The lp with a late incarnation of the band doesn't sound anything like this 78 either.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
"I don't think all accompaniment was influenced directly by Jazz as you say. Out of the tradition yes, but a conscious effort to incorporate the two, I really don't think so."
I would agree - there's not much *jazz* in there, per se. The choice of instrumentation borrows from the popular dance bands of the day, which were jazz-influenced - no doubt, many of the musicians in Killoran's orchestra also played in mainstream dance bands.
Was Killoran responsible for all the orchestration? If so, he clearly had a better understanding of how to marry traditional tunes with chords than most of the 'accompanists' that appeared on early Irish music recordings.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
...The fact that it was done a long time ago doesn't make it 'traditional', any more than it was 'traditional' back then. If Paddy Killoran had started a trend of playing Irish traditional music with dance band accompaniment, which had gained such popularity as to become the norm, and that had continued, unbroken, to the present day, then it might feasibly vie for the title of 'traditional'.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
...Then again, the fact that he used different instruments to the norm doesn't necssarily make it 'not tradtional' either.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Speaking as a backup musician/accompanist who plays piano and bass, I usually try to make what I am playing fit together with whatever rhythm the melody player or players decide to use and the rhythm depends on what type of music we are playing.
The pianist and composer Eubie Blake (who was born in 1883 and died in 1983), never would use the word "jazz" to describe music because he was taught that it was a vulgar term with dirty sexual connotations.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I've so far heard little by way of jazz interacting with trad that's impressed me, and then it's been jazz and trad playing side by side, but not fusion. This includes:
Swing accompaniment with *some* tunes, *sometimes*;
Moving Hearts' air A Tribute To Peadar O'Donnell, played first on pipes and then on sax - really impressive, IMO, because it's an impressive air (but I found much of their stuff tedious);
The odd track by Kathryn Tickell, along with The Brazz Brothers or Andy Sheppard.
I think there are trad tunes - possibly mainly pensive ones - that a good, brass-based jazz band could treat really impressively without destroying their essence, but I don't remember having heard this done. (I've a feeling they do this more in the Balkans...)
Our American cousins may know the most about linking up trad with jazz - and what can mix and what can't - as musos must have played Old Time and jazz there at fairly close quarters for a very long time.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by nicholas
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
People from Bob Wills to Willie Johnson were mixing jazz and trad fiddle tunes long before anyone noticed or cared much. i.e before the Blessed Folk Revival. Anyone who mixed jazz and folk after the BFR was considered an innovative ground-breaking fusion artist doing something that nobody had ever heard before and possibly a threat to the very existence of Traditional Music
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by Bren
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Ah you're a funny old bunch, so easy to get ye worked up about something......
I posted this track and discussion as a bit of provocative fun, I generally prefer solo playing myself and am not too found of jazz style variations on tunes and all that but still I'm open-minded and think people should just be given freedom to try new things out without fear of ridicule from self-appointed keepers of the tradition.
This track just goes to show that one of the old acknowledged masters of the tradition was open to these things and while some of these experiments might be disastrous, others end up being wonderful.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Transcriber - I'm with you there.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by nicholas
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
The clarinet was a main instrument of Danish trad in the old days. To me this has nothing to do with jazz, just an uncommon instrument in Irish trad...
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by houlberg
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I believe clarinets come in different key arrangements and tunings, and maybe clarinet tradheads in particular places have preference for one or another sort - maybe different from what jazzers or modern Classical musos might use, though I wouldn't know.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by nicholas
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
The clarinet evolved through different key systems like the flute.
Today there are two main ones - Boehm and Deutsches System. Some
New Orleans-style trad players like using the Albert System. In classical,
some people are using recreated early Classical instruments with only
a couple of keys on them for authenticity with Mozart and Beethoven.
I don't know much about these instruments.
If I play Irish Trad on the clarinet, I would use an A clarinet because
the keys of D and G sit easily on it (fingered as F and Bb) and it has a
darker
sound.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Hup
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I hate the way people always say "experimentation has always been an important part of the tradition, it's what keeps it alive" as if it is a fact.
Maybe he was gettin paid a few bob for it?
Maybe he enjoyed havin a bit of craic with musos from other styles, like most good musos do sometimes?
Saying it is what kept the tradition alive is bollox imo.
/rant over
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by dee.
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Maybe the problem here is the use of the word jazz - conjures up a different sound image to people today.
Anyhoo, Dan Sullivan and James Morrison are two that also went further than most. [No time to write any more].
And those who seem to be satisfied with the way things are - who are the most famous and valued trad players? The ones who did things differently.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by continuo
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
amongthelillies has his head in the sand! I think you're the only one who thinks I meant that particularly track kept the tradition alive!!! The tradition has been kept alive by players continually coming up with new ways of expressing themselves, most of the acknowledged masters of the tradition did something new.
As I said posting that track was a bit of provocative fun. Oh and if you want an even more extreme example of an older mix of jazz styles and trad check out the Flanagan Brothers. The whole concept is old swing jazz style backing with the tunes, there's even a saxophone. John Carty's band At the Racket is a tribute to them. They've some hilarious songs which mix swing jazz style singing and backing with trad melodies.
I do think continuo is right in thinking the word jazz is throwing people. I'm not talking about Miles Davis or John Coltrane here, I mean old swing jazz from the 1920's, it clearly had an important influence on Irish American trad musicians. There are loads of recordings with a kind of swing band backing and with clarinets and saxes and guitars and banjos strumming and the whole trad piano oompah style definitely came from swing jazz.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Lads, fact is, these people were making a living, Killoran's orchestra played in his own 'saloon' and was meant to draw the punters. So what did he, and Flanagan's, do? Yes he played popular music as well as Irish music and mixed it a bit. Experimentation? Keeping the tradition alive? Bonkers. Making a living, being practical, being a child of his time. Nothing more, nothing less. Nothing different from PJ Murrihy and god knows what other popular dance group out there that mixes in a bit of C&W and a few pop songs for the audience(today's popular music).
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Good man kilfarboy, you hit the proverbial nail on the head!
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Gerry1972
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
thats it kilfarboy.
i think you're being a bit naive transcriber. from the things you say it comes across to me as if you're misinterpreting it. what you're saying is that it is stuff like that that kept music alive, well thats like saying that nowadays it is things like that 'music for a found harmonium' dance track that will keep the music alive. thats wrong, i wouldn't call either experimentation, in both cases its essentially the same tune and in both its simply to make money as kilfarboy said. if you thought that the piano backers for example were being revolutionary in the way they accompanied, then no, its because they would not have at all been used to backing irish music rythms and melodies. its not fusion, it was an attempt to accompany a type of music that was alien to them. as far as 'at the racket 'goes, i dont think having a saxophone makes them fusion. there were plenty of ceili bands with saxophone, thats like saying de danann is a mixture of irish and greek music simply because alec finn plays a greek bouzouki. no. maybe at the rackets songs that are from that time may very have been influenced by swing jazz but looking at most songs from that era, most of which were songs sung regularly back in ireland, its doubtful that there was much influence. i would think its foolish to say that music like the one on the track was responsible for the music today, simply because there are far more influential recordings of the same musician and other musicians also.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
The thing is, traditional music does not, neither then or now, exist in a vacuum. There has always been and there will always be interaction with other elements of popular culture. Traditional singers have always sung popular songs alongside traditional ones. I have heard singers sing big Child ballads only to follow them by 'Red river Valley', Nothing strange or experimental about it.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
As well as that, transcriber thinks that just because it was in the 1920s or 30s that everyone was more traditional. Dropping names like Killoran and The Flanagans to show how Jazzy those old players could be with there interpretations. Did it ever dawn on him that there were traditionalists or purists (for a lack of a better word) back then and also people who were not so 'purist'.
There has always been the purist element in Irish music, and there have always been people who play Irish music who will absorb popular music and dish out Irish music in a pseudo pop Irish way.
I agree with C-Ray, I think the transcriber is a numb nuts, but he probably has a job as a professor of Irish music somewhere. He likes to drop these names but he hasn't listened to the music.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by The Sailor on the Rock
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I think a lot of the 'jazz' that the 'purists' have issue with being cross-pollinated with trad music didn't even exist as a music or element of the 'jazz' genre back in the 20s/30s.
The people that come up on discussions that some members have a go at and call untraditional (like Ivers, etc.) do not take their foreign influences from ragtime, dixieland or Swing, which were the predominant jazz styles of that age and location. Their music is influenced by much more modern sub-genres within the collective term 'Jazz'. Also these influences have more more of an effect on their melodic ornamentation and variation, whereas the examples you site from the 20s had the foreign element influencing predominately the backing.
Like the term 'classical' music, Jazz encompasses an awful lot of different musical styles within it. It's a general term that ranges from Lassus and Palestrina all the way to shockhausen and Steve Reich. Jazz is the same; a wide range of music falls under that one name. I don't you fully grasp that; you apply the terminology so liberally.
Kilfarboy has got it pretty much on the nose. You should take stock.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
'what you're saying is that it is stuff like that that kept music alive'
Jesus H Christ, no that is not what I'm saying!!! If you read my post directly before your post you'll see I wrote
'I think you're the only one who thinks I meant that particularly track kept the tradition alive!!! The tradition has been kept alive by players continually coming up with new ways of expressing themselves, most of the acknowledged masters of the tradition did something new.'
As I said this track is no more than a bit of fun, but I find it interesting all the same, it shows an historical precedent for a great and respected musician doing something outside of what people might consider 'traditional' that's all.
I'd ask you all to read that post again before all jumping on my back and telling me I'm an idiot. I guess you all just don't like being provoked........
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I think you have it wrong there, there was nothing to provoke there in that track. It was an American based dance band from the first half or so of the 20th century.
I am not provoked either by the 1950 re-makes of some McKenna flute 78s with a background of brushed drum and bass, I am not provoked by Dan Sullivan's piano introduction of The Blackbird, I love it actually. McKenna's electric swing guitar that backed Killoran, well I don't find it provoking but I don't like it much. The Old Ireland Quartet's use of the cello? The Kilfenora playing the Blue Bell polka on sax? Nah, at the end of the day it's just bands playing for dances, nothing particularly innovative, nothing much that lasted.
Tommy Potts incorporating all sorts of things, now that's more challenging and (thought) provoking.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
It probably doesn't provoke you kilfarboy because you know all about that music and obviously have a very good knowledge of it which I respect completely.
I'm not saying this track is particularly amazing or anything, I mean how many times do I have to say it. I just put it there as a way of showing that back then people were mixing trad with all sorts of instrumental combinations and different backing styles because it was fun, nowadays if people do it they tend to get slated because it's not 'traditional' even though the Ceili Band itself developed from this old swing jazz mix. That's the one thing that has lasted from that era for better or worse.
As I said it was meant to be a bit of provocative fun but some people didn't see it that way and took it way too seriously. Then I suppose I got a bit caught up in that myself because people were completely misquoting and misinterpreting me.
Anyway, I've had enough of all this nonsense, think I'll just get back to transcribing..........
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I don't think you can necessarily say 'the' ceiliband developed from the swing jazz mix.
US based dance bands like Killoran's are a local development and I wouldn't class them as 'Ceili' bands. I am not so sure the development of the Ceiliband in Ireland is rooted in 'Jazz/swing' as quite a few of the early bands in Ireland were set up by the local PP to provide (relatively) healthy entertainment in the parish halls, in other words to keep the parishioners away from the 'jungle music' of the commercial dance hall.
I don't think there were a lot of traditional musicians who had a foot in both camps, unlike Liam Walsh who recorded many 78 rpms as a piper but also played the sax in his own dance band. I am told though he kept the two kinds of music quite separate though.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
'I don't think you can necessarily say 'the' ceiliband developed from the swing jazz mix.'
Well it did according to Sean O'Riada, who hated Ceili Bands and decried the introduction of what he called a jazz rhythm section to the music.
People in Ireland heard all those old records being produced in the US and some were hugely influenced by them, that's how all the Michael Coleman clones developed and also most likely how the idea of a piano, drum kit and a bass backing the music in a ceili band situation developed.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
anyway I feel like a complete nerd now so I'm definitely stopping responding to any more of this...........
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Good decision Transcriber you're out of your depth.
"...back then people were mixing trad with all sorts of instrumental combinations and different backing styles because it was fun"
Wrong again.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Gerry1972
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
This is great great great. Transcriber is doomed for life on this forum. He can change his user name but until he learns to shut his trap he'll be spotted a mile a way. Goon on ye all!!!!
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by The Grand Spy
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Yes, some were a bit harder on Transcriber than he deserved, that's what I think anyway. It's very easy to keep saying someone is out of his depth and all that. It's more useful to discuss things and exchange information than it is to shoot someone down. it's harder too because your risk being shot down in turn.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I have nothing against transcriber's posting this Killoran (?) track - I was interested to hear it - nor against his other comments. The matter of how ITM and related trads change in their treatment of the music, or mix or hybridise with other traditions, is something I enjoy mulling over. With experiments of the latter kind, I judge whether one works or doesn't, not whether or not it should have been made.
I don't believe that every great player has necessarily invented a technique or individual style previously unheard that many have thereafter used - though I don't doubt that some have. Nor do novelties or novelty combinations make players great, though great players can involve themselves in such. I'd put the Killoran track in this category - of passing historical interest, but not an important signpost in the history of ITM and its influences from other music, and not *in itself* proof that Killoran was a trailblazer. The jazz element there was too mild and separate for me to see it as a jazz / ITM collaboration, let alone hybrid.
But thanks, transcriber - even if you've gone - for bringing it to our notice.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by nicholas
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Who in their right mind would ever want to come from Eton or HARROW?
Transcriber put it up as a point, not a question. It is expected that the retorts he got were argumentative in nature. In fairness, most of the replies were informative, well articulated and addressed the subject matter in question. Fair play to Kilfarboy; he disagreed and put his point across well. If this site has any worth other than discussing bridges from cheap banjos, it will derive from people talking about the tradition in an informative way, with valid examples to back them up.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
"Who in their right mind would ever want to come from Eton or HARROW?"
Definitely not me.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by Gerry1972
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
Well it did according to Sean O'Riada, who hated Ceili Bands and decried the introduction of what he called a jazz rhythm section to the music.
People in Ireland heard all those old records being produced in the US and some were hugely influenced by them, that's how all the Michael Coleman clones developed and also most likely how the idea of a piano, drum kit and a bass backing the music in a ceili band situation developed.
*The problem with taking Ó Riada at face value is that he talked a lot of nonsense, and many of his comments (like this) were totally uninformed. But it's understandable that people would take his comments as authoritative given his status in traditional music.
# Posted on November 30th 2008 by continuo
Re: ......and who said trad and jazz mixing isn't traditional?
I am reading an excellent book that touches on the mixing of jazz and trad in the old dance halls of Boston. It is called "See You at the Hall: Boston's Golden Age of Irish Music and Dance," by Susan Gedutis, with an introduction by Mick Moloney. Extensive interviews of musicians like Joe Derrane who played trad, played swing, and mixed trad and swing. Highly recommended!!!!
# Posted on December 1st 2008 by AlBrown