The Session >> Discussions >> Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
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Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
{music begins 1:21} http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=ofKcN1a8ObM
Fionna Ritchie introduces the video;
" Seamus & Eileen . . . are experimenting w/some of the rhythms & the melodies in the music & playing w/them a bit . . . these people are so rooted in the source of the music . . . the are both very young & youthful . . . they represent this next generation of Irish music & players like these are really helping to spark that interest."
Would have been nice to see the original musicians in 1994. By chance, on Friday night, my friend had an extra ticket to Eileen Ivers with Leo Travera, Buddy Connolly, Greg Anderson and, Tommy McDonnell.
She was billed as the Jimi Hendrix of Irish fiddle. Has anyone every heard her go crazy with feedback during some of those New York sessions? Or pull out a can of lighter fluid?
any gripes?
She did torture Buddy Connolly at one point with a mano y mano jam. She was unfazed while poor Buddy was sweating. Also, they played a polka at a speed which all but removed the rhythm. Tommy McDonnell surrounds himself with a full drum kit (for all the rock fans). His bodhran solo was sparse. Greg Anderson kept tuning his bozouki, but I only remember one tune where he actually played it.
How good were they?
Tommy & Eileen are genuinely lovely people. If I ever show up in the Bronx I would love to have Tommy take me around to sessions. [Somehow I doubt the music would be traditional Irish] Even with all the fanfare Eileen still gives the trad musicians some sweet bits. She has a wild streak & still feels right at home with traditionalist. I love good bass playing, which Leo Travera does well. All in all a fun night.
As wild as Eileen can get with rhythms, arrangements, etc... she can still sit down in a traditional session and just blend in with everyone else. You'll never hear her using anything but traditional technique within a session, and a fine traditional musician she is. Her shows have a lot less "tradition" to them.
I disagree with the statement that she can just 'blend in' with other trad players - I can hear her a mile off - with that sticato bow bounce thing she does and her weighted glissando into a note - two techniques foreign to the technical ornimentation of ITM fiddle players and make her stand out as a mile.
This whole notion of trazzy players being able to don their trad caps and play just as good as the purists is rubbish. If you know what you're listening to, you can hear it a mile off, usually in the ornamentation and occassionally in the tune selection
Being purist and trazzy is a bit more than just a choice of repertoire. It's an outlook on the music based apon a fair amount. This is why you see none of the purist delving into commercial trazz tripe for glory or financial reward, and why those that try and cross the two never hold any acclaim amongst those who actually know their stuff.
Eileen Ivers is not a good trad fiddle player. Fair play to her for what she does, I have no interest in it personally, but to call her a trad player is a mis-representation of her and trad music.
Didnt she used to bill herself as playing 'Nouveau Irish Music...'?
.......which would be far more accurate.
I'm sure I remember seeing this in some of her publicity a long time ago, during riverdance's heyday. In fact I think this phrase was on her poster - anyone remember this?
I think I'd broadly agree with you there Skip. I think she possibly could be a good trad fiddle player, if she wanted. But she's not, and that's fine of course.
But what you can't deny, is that she's a bloody good fiddle player, whether you like it or not.
she's not a 'bloody good fiddle player'. for what she does and what she is advertising herself as she is not THAT great at all. there are a huge number people doing tihngs similar to her. I dont have a problem with her because i just dont listen to her, but i still dont think she is top quality. stephane grapelli was top quality. think more along those lines.
irishfiddler32, I didn't pass comment on your ear or how 'mighty fine' it is. I merely stated that I disagreed with your judgement. It would appear by the subsequent responses, it is an opinion held by a few.
Regardless of how good your ear is, it's hard to hear anything when your head is up you a*se.
Okay, Random, thanks. I see what you were getting at.
I don't agree with people who would dismiss her as 'trazzy' (new one on me!). I have lots of friends who would have differing opinions about how well they like her playing but none (including my good friend Con McGinley from Donegal at 90+) would consider her outside 'the tradition' - whatever that means. Just maybe a bit wild as a player!
I'm not a fiddler, so I'm not really one to judge styles or anything, but I at least thought I would direct everyone to a DVD called "From Shore to Shore: Irish Traditional Music in New York City". Although it contains performances and interviews with Brian Conway, Martin Wynne, Paddy Reynolds, and plenty of other well names, of most relevance to this discussion is an interview with Eileen Ivers where she explains her upbringing and how her style has changed. The documentary was made in 1993 (re-released on DVD in 2006), so inevitably her style has changed a bit since then, but it would definitely help shed a bit of light onto this discussion. Here's where you can find it:
Hey Skip
When was the last time you sat in a seisun with EIleen? Really I'd like to know that--- I'd find it very hard to believe that you would have the response you did if you had. I've had many the local seisun with Eileen and she's a fantastic trad player ---How many times did she garner the All-Ireland fiddle title? Yes her playing has evolved quite a bit over the years but she's never forgotten her roots---Coleen has also played in seisuns with her so she does know of what she speaks .
it's been a few years at least, since I don't live in the states and only infrequently travel over. But I stand by my comments, that nasty glissando and sppicato-esk bowing technique permeates her playing, even when in a 'local session'.
And don't try and validate people's musical worth by competitive success. Michael Coleman entered the Sligo Feis Ceoil in 1909 and in 1910. He came tied third both times. So is Ivers a better fiddle player than Coleman? I think not.
It has to be remembered that "traditional" music (I know it's an impossible thing to define, but at least in the way that I take Skip to mean it) hardly predominates in the vast majority of Irish music "sessions" around the world.
Hey dr_funckywhatever, I watched that clip and after 40 seconds, I struggled to master all my self composure and not fling my feckin lap top through the feckin window.
"... and there it took root in the soil" AAAAAAGGGHHH Feck feckin off.
Anyway, onwards:
She says, "In my heart, Irish traditional music first and foremost, and later on, look at that, oh wow, there's MUSIC"
I suppose it's all summed up when the narrator says: "today, people pay to hear her play."
And didn't I love the references to the "diddle ee dee stuff"?
But, it doesn't matter. I like her for what she is. It doesn't matter that that's not the way I like to play. It doesn't matter that that's generally not the music that I like to hear. She's still terrific. She loves it.
Totally uncalled for response, Skip. I wasn't rude to you in the least, so there was no need to make the a*se comment. I played in a recorded session last October with Eileen, and when I listen to the CD, I can't pick out her playing amongst the fiddlers (there were 3 or 4 of us). Her performances are one thing, and her session playing another...that was my only point.
Yep, irishfiddler32 is absolutely right. I used to think she was an incredible fiddle player, but just disliked most of the stuff she was recording, and thought her style too far gone. .. Then one night, three or four years ago, I witnessed her playing from 3.00-4.30am in a tiny session in a pub in East Durham. Apart from the four or five people playing, there were only three or four others in the pub listening. It was without doubt the most incredible music I have heard and, though those she was playing with were all top-notch, known trad players, the incredible dynamics of the joint sound were being created by her, subtly but unmistakably. I watched the other brilliant musicians just watch her in awe as they were playing, and I counted my lucky stars I'd decided to just pop in on the way back to my bed. No bow bouncing, no flashy stuff. Completely traditional, and a truly magical, magical experience to listen to it. And yes, miles beyond Coleman, great though he was. This has been stated many times here, but I'll say it again: the very top trad players can play in a myriad of different ways and styles, and often go down a particular route for whatever reason suits them. But they can always play straight when they want to.
I especially like the part where she whips out the wah wah pedal while Bredan Begley jumps off his Marshall stack in the first one. The amount of distortion he gets is *hot!!!*
Per Mr. Canlon:
"I can hear her a mile off - with that sticato bow bounce thing she does and her weighted glissando into a note - two techniques foreign to the technical ornimentation of ITM fiddle players and make her stand out as a mile."
Per a story associated with Danny Meehan:
"There are many myths and legends built around the playing od Danny Meehan in London but one that I know is true is: He was playing fiddle in a pub and a classical player asked him about the pizzicato style he was using and Danny looked at him bemused and said 'Ah now don't be putting fancy names to just picking at the strings.'"
And for lligity leach'em: I agree--she loves what she's doing, and I don't think anyone could claim that those clips of her as a young one are "trazzy."
"I know what I'm listening to, Skip...I have a mighty fine ear, as a matter of fact."
"I played in a recorded session last October with Eileen, and when I listen to the CD, I can't pick out her playing amongst the fiddlers (there were 3 or 4 of us)"
What a mighty fine ear you must have - unable to pick out her amongst 3 other fiddle players! One of them being yourself! Truly your ear is on a par with Mozart and his transcription of Allegri's Miserere.
As for comparisons to big Danny Meehan - their techniques are wildly different, pizzicato (plucking of strings) is evident in his virtuoso playing, but he's not unique for it at all. Spiccato bowing is completely different; bouncing of the bow.
And as for Doodle:
"Completely traditional, and a truly magical, magical experience to listen to it. And yes, miles beyond Coleman, great though he was."
Words fail me. As Mark Twain once said; "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I'll leave this discussion to the ensuing Ivers fan club, that seems to have ignorance as a prerequisite for membership. Enjoy spray painting your fiddles blue; I'm sure they'll sound wicked awesome afterwards.
All words that represent the vaporous fame of the American artist. It is not a country, nor has it ever been one, that has produced great artists that have risen to fame (few exceptions). The ones that had the most creative genius and honest understanding of what it meant to create art, write or play music were from Africa, Europe, and Asia. The genuine artist's, the ones that rebelled against the system and produced art for themselves first and foremost were always neglected in their own life times, for the most part. There hasn't been an American born Irish musician that can play as good as the Irish since Johnny McGreevy, he was born in the first decade of the 20th century.
I think Eileen is a bag of tricks, and that's just perfect for the American masses, and always will be!!!
Somehow I manage to enjoy people even when they become obsessed by their ideals.
Good thing the end result is still a 'world' of music.
Keep playing the way you want. Cheers..
What do I think?
I am not a fiddler. I find myself listening to Eileen on the basis of what I read here. What would members such as Will, fiddleruairi, or Michael listen for?.
I was pleasantly surprised to find she has a good handle on diddley . . . she also enjoys her effects pedal, running through the audiences, gesturing, getting Tommy up front . . . performing. This was not one for the old purists. Most of the people in the audience were older than Eileen. It is good to know my fellow old timers (Chico) are not all home on Friday night; blogging about their gripes.
Immigrant Soul is not the 1st band I think of when t comes to pushing the limits of Irish music. Quite simply they are a fusion band & Irish tunes play a part. Still, no bag of tricks can disguise Eileen's deeper ability. She may not be a worthy pure drop player. If so this is because she spreads herself too thin.
To repeat, I am not a fiddler. I agree with Michael, "she's a bloody good fiddle player, whether you like it or not."
;)
Thanks Michael. It isn't a direct question. I had to break it down. She played some straight up fiddle music but then she had this effects pedal. I got lost. Granted, I was the only person in the audience breaking it down. It is a byproduct of joining in on these discussions.
what i look for? well if we're talking about what eileen is doin in her line of work, well this video is good representation of how to play wild. you've probably seen it before.
"As for comparisons to big Danny Meehan - their techniques are wildly different, pizzicato (plucking of strings) is evident in his virtuoso playing, but he's not unique for it at all. Spiccato bowing is completely different; bouncing of the bow."
The intended comparison wasn't between Ms. Ivers and Mr. Meehan.
Ah, you got down to the rub of the discussion! Good on ya on.
"The ones that had the most creative genius and honest understanding of what it meant to create art, write or play music were from Africa, Europe, and Asia."
Like Hemingway? Coltrane? Hendrix? Whitman?
"There hasn't been an American born Irish musician that can play as good as the Irish since Johnny McGreevy, he was born in the first decade of the 20th century."
This may be true, but we need you to list every American born Irish musician you've ever heard to verify the claim. Even though it's a rather small country, there might be a couple of musicians you've never heard of that might make the claim moot.
"I think Eileen is a bag of tricks, and that's just perfect for the American masses, and always will be!!!"
Well luckily the ould sod produced these girls to keep the tradition pure!
"There hasn't been an American born Irish musician that can play as good as the Irish since Johnny McGreevy, he was born in the first decade of the 20th century."
"There hasn't been an American born Irish musician that can play as good as the Irish since Johnny McGreevy, he was born in the first decade of the 20th century"
There are plenty of Americans who play Irish music just as well as their counterparts in Ireland, Many of them have had Irish born teachers who were living legends of the music--but of course because they weren't sitting in a little cottage in Clare or thereabouts they couldn't be as good.
I've heard some very obnoxious things said on this message board from time to time --this is one of them.
Cracking stuff, lads! Close-minded comments and resort to insult from Skip, and nationalist tripe from Sailor. It would have been interesting to discuss this thread topic further in a rational and vaguely civilised manner, but I'm obviously wasting my time.
You must have missed my few exceptions!!!!I have alot of admiration for Jimmy and Walt. Emerson and Henry Miller too, and plenty of other American writers and musicians. Greed did not drive those artists you listed and each of them had a dislike for America. They rebelled and became well known, after they died. They were not appealing to the masses at all. Eileen is.
I wouldn't put Hemingway and Whitman in the same sentence, but that's a matter of taste. I won't hold it against you.
Making sweeping generalizations about a whole country's people, especially negative generalizations? Didn't we just have a huge discussion about that?????
I heard in Eileen's playing, an easiness with her instrument, strong roots in tradition, & the desire to play anything & everything.
She is free, I hope, to explore various styles & genres.
I do not believe she has to satisfy all the purist who could care less about listening to her in session.
I wholeheartedly thank all who have read this thread & willingly consider Eileen Ivers one of our community of tradition.
For those who feel she does not strictly follow the tradition thank you for sharing your opinions.
Anything concerning Irish traditional music which is ground in stone symbolizes a tombstone.
;)
"Greed did not drive those artists you listed and each of them had a dislike for America. They rebelled and became well known, after they died. They were not appealing to the masses at all..."
"I wouldn't put Hemingway and Whitman in the same sentence, but that's a matter of taste. I won't hold it against you."
That's okay, I won't hold against you the fact that Hendrix headlined the Woodstock festival (I'm sure no one there had ever heard of him), that Trane gained broad public appeal for his recording of "My Favorite Things" or that good old Uncle Walt published patriotic poetry supporting the Union.
Also, thank you for your list of American born Irish musicians that proves that no one born in the States since Johnny McGreevy is as good as the Irish.
"I wholeheartedly thank all who have read this thread & willingly consider Eileen Ivers one of our community of tradition.
For those who feel she does not strictly follow the tradition thank you for sharing your opinions."
Geez you really think something of yourself don't ya!
I will say this about Eileen's performance. If you are going to tip the scales bring in some funky players. Not just Dr. Leo Travera. Some brass (sax or trumpet) or timbales ~ someone Like Shelia E.
Dr. Funk,
We won't hold it against HIM that he supported the Union! By the way I like those people so you're arguing with the wind. They weren't POPULAR artists of their time. I apologize to everyone about the Johnny McGreevy comment. A bit over the top I agree. I'm not going to name every American Irish musician that I've ever heard of.
Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
{music begins 1:21}
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=ofKcN1a8ObM
Fionna Ritchie introduces the video;
" Seamus & Eileen . . . are experimenting w/some of the rhythms & the melodies in the music & playing w/them a bit . . . these people are so rooted in the source of the music . . . the are both very young & youthful . . . they represent this next generation of Irish music & players like these are really helping to spark that interest."
Would have been nice to see the original musicians in 1994. By chance, on Friday night, my friend had an extra ticket to Eileen Ivers with Leo Travera, Buddy Connolly, Greg Anderson and, Tommy McDonnell.
She was billed as the Jimi Hendrix of Irish fiddle. Has anyone every heard her go crazy with feedback during some of those New York sessions? Or pull out a can of lighter fluid?
any gripes?
She did torture Buddy Connolly at one point with a mano y mano jam. She was unfazed while poor Buddy was sweating. Also, they played a polka at a speed which all but removed the rhythm. Tommy McDonnell surrounds himself with a full drum kit (for all the rock fans). His bodhran solo was sparse. Greg Anderson kept tuning his bozouki, but I only remember one tune where he actually played it.
How good were they?
Tommy & Eileen are genuinely lovely people. If I ever show up in the Bronx I would love to have Tommy take me around to sessions. [Somehow I doubt the music would be traditional Irish] Even with all the fanfare Eileen still gives the trad musicians some sweet bits. She has a wild streak & still feels right at home with traditionalist. I love good bass playing, which Leo Travera does well. All in all a fun night.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
As far as you could possibly get from the stuff I like.
Thanks for posting though.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
just awful.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
As wild as Eileen can get with rhythms, arrangements, etc... she can still sit down in a traditional session and just blend in with everyone else. You'll never hear her using anything but traditional technique within a session, and a fine traditional musician she is. Her shows have a lot less "tradition" to them.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by irishfiddler32
Eileen Ivers
Thanks Colleen.
I had a real strong sense of that each time she spoke to her audience. She is fun & friendly.
# Posted on November 23rd 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Well I happen to like it, however, I think I must have missed the point of this posting.
What is the discussion about?
It's hardly a new recording or even new to Youtube. Is it controversial?
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by Rob
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
I disagree with the statement that she can just 'blend in' with other trad players - I can hear her a mile off - with that sticato bow bounce thing she does and her weighted glissando into a note - two techniques foreign to the technical ornimentation of ITM fiddle players and make her stand out as a mile.
This whole notion of trazzy players being able to don their trad caps and play just as good as the purists is rubbish. If you know what you're listening to, you can hear it a mile off, usually in the ornamentation and occassionally in the tune selection
Being purist and trazzy is a bit more than just a choice of repertoire. It's an outlook on the music based apon a fair amount. This is why you see none of the purist delving into commercial trazz tripe for glory or financial reward, and why those that try and cross the two never hold any acclaim amongst those who actually know their stuff.
Eileen Ivers is not a good trad fiddle player. Fair play to her for what she does, I have no interest in it personally, but to call her a trad player is a mis-representation of her and trad music.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Didnt she used to bill herself as playing 'Nouveau Irish Music...'?
.......which would be far more accurate.
I'm sure I remember seeing this in some of her publicity a long time ago, during riverdance's heyday. In fact I think this phrase was on her poster - anyone remember this?
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by Gerry1972
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
I think I'd broadly agree with you there Skip. I think she possibly could be a good trad fiddle player, if she wanted. But she's not, and that's fine of course.
But what you can't deny, is that she's a bloody good fiddle player, whether you like it or not.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
I know what I'm listening to, Skip...I have a mighty fine ear, as a matter of fact.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by irishfiddler32
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
she's not a 'bloody good fiddle player'. for what she does and what she is advertising herself as she is not THAT great at all. there are a huge number people doing tihngs similar to her. I dont have a problem with her because i just dont listen to her, but i still dont think she is top quality. stephane grapelli was top quality. think more along those lines.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Thanks everyone for your comments. Rob, I had never seen Eileen Ivers before. I was curious if anyone here has sessioned with her.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
irishfiddler32, I didn't pass comment on your ear or how 'mighty fine' it is. I merely stated that I disagreed with your judgement. It would appear by the subsequent responses, it is an opinion held by a few.
Regardless of how good your ear is, it's hard to hear anything when your head is up you a*se.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Okay, Random, thanks. I see what you were getting at.
I don't agree with people who would dismiss her as 'trazzy' (new one on me!). I have lots of friends who would have differing opinions about how well they like her playing but none (including my good friend Con McGinley from Donegal at 90+) would consider her outside 'the tradition' - whatever that means. Just maybe a bit wild as a player!
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by Rob
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
I'm not a fiddler, so I'm not really one to judge styles or anything, but I at least thought I would direct everyone to a DVD called "From Shore to Shore: Irish Traditional Music in New York City". Although it contains performances and interviews with Brian Conway, Martin Wynne, Paddy Reynolds, and plenty of other well names, of most relevance to this discussion is an interview with Eileen Ivers where she explains her upbringing and how her style has changed. The documentary was made in 1993 (re-released on DVD in 2006), so inevitably her style has changed a bit since then, but it would definitely help shed a bit of light onto this discussion. Here's where you can find it:
http://www.cherrylaneproductions.com/s2s/s2s.html
If that doesn't work, try http://www.celticgrooves.com. I'm sure you can find it elsewhere, but that's at least a start.
# Posted on November 24th 2008 by Jason G
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Hey Skip
When was the last time you sat in a seisun with EIleen? Really I'd like to know that--- I'd find it very hard to believe that you would have the response you did if you had. I've had many the local seisun with Eileen and she's a fantastic trad player ---How many times did she garner the All-Ireland fiddle title? Yes her playing has evolved quite a bit over the years but she's never forgotten her roots---Coleen has also played in seisuns with her so she does know of what she speaks .
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by fiddlefamily
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw794E40NAk
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
it's been a few years at least, since I don't live in the states and only infrequently travel over. But I stand by my comments, that nasty glissando and sppicato-esk bowing technique permeates her playing, even when in a 'local session'.
And don't try and validate people's musical worth by competitive success. Michael Coleman entered the Sligo Feis Ceoil in 1909 and in 1910. He came tied third both times. So is Ivers a better fiddle player than Coleman? I think not.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=GW9Jqsrj8xo&feature=related
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
It has to be remembered that "traditional" music (I know it's an impossible thing to define, but at least in the way that I take Skip to mean it) hardly predominates in the vast majority of Irish music "sessions" around the world.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Hey dr_funckywhatever, I watched that clip and after 40 seconds, I struggled to master all my self composure and not fling my feckin lap top through the feckin window.
"... and there it took root in the soil" AAAAAAGGGHHH Feck feckin off.
Anyway, onwards:
She says, "In my heart, Irish traditional music first and foremost, and later on, look at that, oh wow, there's MUSIC"
I suppose it's all summed up when the narrator says: "today, people pay to hear her play."
And didn't I love the references to the "diddle ee dee stuff"?
But, it doesn't matter. I like her for what she is. It doesn't matter that that's not the way I like to play. It doesn't matter that that's generally not the music that I like to hear. She's still terrific. She loves it.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Totally uncalled for response, Skip. I wasn't rude to you in the least, so there was no need to make the a*se comment. I played in a recorded session last October with Eileen, and when I listen to the CD, I can't pick out her playing amongst the fiddlers (there were 3 or 4 of us). Her performances are one thing, and her session playing another...that was my only point.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by irishfiddler32
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Yep, irishfiddler32 is absolutely right. I used to think she was an incredible fiddle player, but just disliked most of the stuff she was recording, and thought her style too far gone. .. Then one night, three or four years ago, I witnessed her playing from 3.00-4.30am in a tiny session in a pub in East Durham. Apart from the four or five people playing, there were only three or four others in the pub listening. It was without doubt the most incredible music I have heard and, though those she was playing with were all top-notch, known trad players, the incredible dynamics of the joint sound were being created by her, subtly but unmistakably. I watched the other brilliant musicians just watch her in awe as they were playing, and I counted my lucky stars I'd decided to just pop in on the way back to my bed. No bow bouncing, no flashy stuff. Completely traditional, and a truly magical, magical experience to listen to it. And yes, miles beyond Coleman, great though he was. This has been stated many times here, but I'll say it again: the very top trad players can play in a myriad of different ways and styles, and often go down a particular route for whatever reason suits them. But they can always play straight when they want to.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Doodle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TRJQtf_x44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82QbRGHuWX8
I especially like the part where she whips out the wah wah pedal while Bredan Begley jumps off his Marshall stack in the first one. The amount of distortion he gets is *hot!!!*
Per Mr. Canlon:
"I can hear her a mile off - with that sticato bow bounce thing she does and her weighted glissando into a note - two techniques foreign to the technical ornimentation of ITM fiddle players and make her stand out as a mile."
Per a story associated with Danny Meehan:
"There are many myths and legends built around the playing od Danny Meehan in London but one that I know is true is: He was playing fiddle in a pub and a classical player asked him about the pizzicato style he was using and Danny looked at him bemused and said 'Ah now don't be putting fancy names to just picking at the strings.'"
And for lligity leach'em: I agree--she loves what she's doing, and I don't think anyone could claim that those clips of her as a young one are "trazzy."
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Ha!
"I know what I'm listening to, Skip...I have a mighty fine ear, as a matter of fact."
"I played in a recorded session last October with Eileen, and when I listen to the CD, I can't pick out her playing amongst the fiddlers (there were 3 or 4 of us)"
What a mighty fine ear you must have - unable to pick out her amongst 3 other fiddle players! One of them being yourself! Truly your ear is on a par with Mozart and his transcription of Allegri's Miserere.
As for comparisons to big Danny Meehan - their techniques are wildly different, pizzicato (plucking of strings) is evident in his virtuoso playing, but he's not unique for it at all. Spiccato bowing is completely different; bouncing of the bow.
And as for Doodle:
"Completely traditional, and a truly magical, magical experience to listen to it. And yes, miles beyond Coleman, great though he was."
Words fail me. As Mark Twain once said; "Never argue with a fool; onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
I'll leave this discussion to the ensuing Ivers fan club, that seems to have ignorance as a prerequisite for membership. Enjoy spray painting your fiddles blue; I'm sure they'll sound wicked awesome afterwards.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
No need to be nasty Mr. Canlon, in doing so you do more to make yourself look like a fool, than make others look like fools.....
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Popular, rich, famous.
All words that represent the vaporous fame of the American artist. It is not a country, nor has it ever been one, that has produced great artists that have risen to fame (few exceptions). The ones that had the most creative genius and honest understanding of what it meant to create art, write or play music were from Africa, Europe, and Asia. The genuine artist's, the ones that rebelled against the system and produced art for themselves first and foremost were always neglected in their own life times, for the most part. There hasn't been an American born Irish musician that can play as good as the Irish since Johnny McGreevy, he was born in the first decade of the 20th century.
I think Eileen is a bag of tricks, and that's just perfect for the American masses, and always will be!!!
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by The Sailor on the Rock
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Doodle. Doodle. Doodle. You really are an All - American -Doodle.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by The Sailor on the Rock
Eileen Ivers & the forum comments
Somehow I manage to enjoy people even when they become obsessed by their ideals.
Good thing the end result is still a 'world' of music.
Keep playing the way you want. Cheers..
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Random_notes
Eileen
What do I think?
I am not a fiddler. I find myself listening to Eileen on the basis of what I read here. What would members such as Will, fiddleruairi, or Michael listen for?.
I was pleasantly surprised to find she has a good handle on diddley . . . she also enjoys her effects pedal, running through the audiences, gesturing, getting Tommy up front . . . performing. This was not one for the old purists. Most of the people in the audience were older than Eileen. It is good to know my fellow old timers (Chico) are not all home on Friday night; blogging about their gripes.
Immigrant Soul is not the 1st band I think of when t comes to pushing the limits of Irish music. Quite simply they are a fusion band & Irish tunes play a part. Still, no bag of tricks can disguise Eileen's deeper ability. She may not be a worthy pure drop player. If so this is because she spreads herself too thin.
To repeat, I am not a fiddler. I agree with Michael, "she's a bloody good fiddle player, whether you like it or not."
;)
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
"what would I listen for?"
I don't really understand the question, I just listen to all of it, I don't like to break it down. That's Will's job
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Thanks Michael. It isn't a direct question. I had to break it down. She played some straight up fiddle music but then she had this effects pedal. I got lost. Granted, I was the only person in the audience breaking it down. It is a byproduct of joining in on these discussions.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
what i look for? well if we're talking about what eileen is doin in her line of work, well this video is good representation of how to play wild. you've probably seen it before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXvl6RKtcsk
cant see eileen playing some michael jackson, but that its brill fiddle playing
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Mr. Canlon wrote:
"As for comparisons to big Danny Meehan - their techniques are wildly different, pizzicato (plucking of strings) is evident in his virtuoso playing, but he's not unique for it at all. Spiccato bowing is completely different; bouncing of the bow."
The intended comparison wasn't between Ms. Ivers and Mr. Meehan.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
As for Mr. on the Rock's assertions:
Ah, you got down to the rub of the discussion! Good on ya on.
"The ones that had the most creative genius and honest understanding of what it meant to create art, write or play music were from Africa, Europe, and Asia."
Like Hemingway? Coltrane? Hendrix? Whitman?
"There hasn't been an American born Irish musician that can play as good as the Irish since Johnny McGreevy, he was born in the first decade of the 20th century."
This may be true, but we need you to list every American born Irish musician you've ever heard to verify the claim. Even though it's a rather small country, there might be a couple of musicians you've never heard of that might make the claim moot.
"I think Eileen is a bag of tricks, and that's just perfect for the American masses, and always will be!!!"
Well luckily the ould sod produced these girls to keep the tradition pure!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBgoucRv2xo&feature=related
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
"There hasn't been an American born Irish musician that can play as good as the Irish since Johnny McGreevy, he was born in the first decade of the 20th century."
What about Jesse Smith?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDZLa2bG30g
After watching that video, I certainly would call him trazzy. Not to his face anyway!
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by skip canlon
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Ha ha! That's great!
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
"There hasn't been an American born Irish musician that can play as good as the Irish since Johnny McGreevy, he was born in the first decade of the 20th century"
There are plenty of Americans who play Irish music just as well as their counterparts in Ireland, Many of them have had Irish born teachers who were living legends of the music--but of course because they weren't sitting in a little cottage in Clare or thereabouts they couldn't be as good.
I've heard some very obnoxious things said on this message board from time to time --this is one of them.
# Posted on November 25th 2008 by fiddlefamily
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Cracking stuff, lads! Close-minded comments and resort to insult from Skip, and nationalist tripe from Sailor. It would have been interesting to discuss this thread topic further in a rational and vaguely civilised manner, but I'm obviously wasting my time.
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Doodle
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
"Like Hemingway? Coltrane? Hendrix? Whitman?"
You must have missed my few exceptions!!!!I have alot of admiration for Jimmy and Walt. Emerson and Henry Miller too, and plenty of other American writers and musicians. Greed did not drive those artists you listed and each of them had a dislike for America. They rebelled and became well known, after they died. They were not appealing to the masses at all. Eileen is.
I wouldn't put Hemingway and Whitman in the same sentence, but that's a matter of taste. I won't hold it against you.
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by The Sailor on the Rock
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
What's wrong with the masses? Or is it just that, as is often noted, they are "always other people"?
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by pavlf
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Making sweeping generalizations about a whole country's people, especially negative generalizations? Didn't we just have a huge discussion about that?????
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by AlBrown
Eileen Ivers
I heard in Eileen's playing, an easiness with her instrument, strong roots in tradition, & the desire to play anything & everything.
She is free, I hope, to explore various styles & genres.
I do not believe she has to satisfy all the purist who could care less about listening to her in session.
I wholeheartedly thank all who have read this thread & willingly consider Eileen Ivers one of our community of tradition.
For those who feel she does not strictly follow the tradition thank you for sharing your opinions.
Anything concerning Irish traditional music which is ground in stone symbolizes a tombstone.
;)
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
"Greed did not drive those artists you listed and each of them had a dislike for America. They rebelled and became well known, after they died. They were not appealing to the masses at all..."
"I wouldn't put Hemingway and Whitman in the same sentence, but that's a matter of taste. I won't hold it against you."
That's okay, I won't hold against you the fact that Hendrix headlined the Woodstock festival (I'm sure no one there had ever heard of him), that Trane gained broad public appeal for his recording of "My Favorite Things" or that good old Uncle Walt published patriotic poetry supporting the Union.
Also, thank you for your list of American born Irish musicians that proves that no one born in the States since Johnny McGreevy is as good as the Irish.
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Eileen Ivers
Thanks Doodle. I missed your earlier comments about Eileen playing in session. I really was hoping for some 1st hand experiences.
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
"I wholeheartedly thank all who have read this thread & willingly consider Eileen Ivers one of our community of tradition.
For those who feel she does not strictly follow the tradition thank you for sharing your opinions."
Geez you really think something of yourself don't ya!
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Gerry1972
VocalDivaSteed
No, not really.
Just want to agree to disagree.
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Well THANK you SO much Random_notes I totally disagree!
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Gerry1972
Eileen Ivers
You feel she does not strictly follow the tradition?
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Nah jst yanking your chain. Hadn't you better be getting back to archivey type stuff??
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Gerry1972
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
sorry im thinking of funkystein
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Gerry1972
V_D_S
I would rather get back to playing.
Thanks for the interlude.
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Dr. Funk
I will say this about Eileen's performance. If you are going to tip the scales bring in some funky players. Not just Dr. Leo Travera. Some brass (sax or trumpet) or timbales ~ someone Like Shelia E.
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Random_notes
Anytime. I'll let you get back to it because by the sounds of it you need the practice.
Happy sessioning!
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by Gerry1972
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
if it weren't for great innovators we'd all still be banging rocks together like that guy at Will's session in Montana
# Posted on November 26th 2008 by airport
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Dr. Funk,
We won't hold it against HIM that he supported the Union! By the way I like those people so you're arguing with the wind. They weren't POPULAR artists of their time. I apologize to everyone about the Johnny McGreevy comment. A bit over the top I agree. I'm not going to name every American Irish musician that I've ever heard of.
# Posted on November 27th 2008 by The Sailor on the Rock
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
eileen ivers does not play traditional irish music.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by skip canlon
S. c.
Please enlighten us. who does play traditional irish music?
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Eileen Ivers, Seumas Egan, John Doyle, & Kimati Dinizulu '94
Apparently Michael Coleman qualifies.
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by Doodle
Ivers, Egan, Doyle, Dinizulu
Thanks Doodle ~ how about during the last 40 - 50 - 60 years?
# Posted on November 29th 2008 by Random_notes