No, not bodhran players but a single fiddler, drunk on his own testosterone, turning a session into a p*ssing competition. How often does this happen and how do people deal with it?
We happen to have a VERY accomplished fiddle player, who is also one of the most mellow musicians imaginable, but.... Some time ago, we had a testosteronized bouzouki player show up who fit your description by dominating the scene, and wrecking the session. He launched on yet another tune at 90 wreckless mph, and was joined by our man, who after the obligatory third time through, continued to play the tune faster, louder and with more variations and ornaments thought possible. After about five minutes, the message was very clear, even to the protagonist, but to drive the nail completely through the board, our man went another five minutes, ending with a flair that would make John Philip Sousa blush, and a glare that shocked us all. The bouzouki player has not returned, and hopefully has warned his comrades to steer clear of our session. Not all sessions are so lucky to have that sort of solution. Therefore, this is a good question. My solution would be to stop playing entirely, and let the villain drown in his own p*ss. It might take a session or two, but I think he'd/she'd get the message and go elsewhere.
clogstepping ~ no specifics required, but I love a good story... Please, tell us more. And yes, most of us have been on the recieving end of an exploding ego maniac... It's a mess to clean up, shight everywhere...
Imagine the session as a dog sled team, and this person, whatever their instrument, is the 'driver', only one who not only likes to be in the driving seat, pushing us dogs on and maybe even using thier instrument as a weapon of torture, the whip. Now remember, we are not that far removed from the wild, we who are possessed by music. Too much of that whip and the wolves arise from the puppies and we'll have his guts for dinner...
Best to deal with it sooner than let it get that far, eh?
When living in the smoke, Dublin, or anyplace with more than one session going, it hasn't been unknown for instruments down or cases to close and more attention given to the pint. In some cases, and I know it's a cop out, we'd get up and leave and find someplace else to make music. But, I realize that isn't always an option. So, as hard as it is, someone has to deal with it, sooner rather than later. If they can't manage honesty and courtesy, well, they'll probably, hopefully, get up and find someplace else for their display...
eh? do you not think thats a silly thing to say about dublin ceolachan? i play in dublin and i cant say that it happens all the time. i dunno aout the other cities now though. but you're going to get that anywhere. i was at the ennis trad fest last year and in all honesty you could have been at any type of festival for the amount of people in pubs, not being able to hear music and what not. i wouldnt say that what you said is completely confined to cities though. you're always gonna get it somewhere. as far as yer man, the fiddle player, just te ll him to stop, you'd be doing him a favour! just put it to him politely.
If the player was ruining your afternoon or evening evening session, why not ruin his playing ego by asking him or her to stop so everyone can enjoy the time there.
I don't understand why didn't someone speak up and nip in the bud. Where was the session leader? Why tolerate that kind of bull droppings?
Is this fiddler a regular fixture at your session? Maybe he goes into 'must' no more than once or twice a year; in which case, you could make allowences for it. The next onset, sit behind him and have all the other gals do likewise so that he can't see any of you. It's only for that one night, possibly two consecutive session nights. He should be his old sweet self after about two weeks. You would only embarrass him if you told him about the things he got up to while he was in the grip of testosterone poisoning. Other, trickier remedies involve decanting the stuff.
Exhaust all other possible remedies first, before you resort to the pruning shears. Should it come to that, then do what you have to do humanely and quickly. Make a hash of it, and there's a good chance of property damage, injury to other sessioners, even death; in which case you would most certainly have to have him put down.
It's a religious thing, drinkin' your own p*ss and O-D-ing on the testosterone... Sorry clogstepping, I won't do it again... Coming down from that rush was awful ~ and I ended up having to get the bow rehaired, that damned cheap Chinese rosin...
I'm not referring to my usual session, which is a wonderfully well-run, friendly and enjoyable evening's activity. I'm thinking about something I've observed at festival sessions. Now I like hearing new and obscure tunes and am quite prepared to put the drum down for whole slices of sessions, and sit back to listen and learn. One set of new and obscure tunes is perfectly acceptable, even if there's only one player playing them with 15-20 other sessioners sitting round politiely observing. At a pinch I could take two consecutive sets if the tunes are good and the fiddler or other single instrumentalist is a pretty good player. But three - or more - consecutive sets (with each tune played not once but two/ three times round) of the new and obscure, known only to the one player, seems to me to be pushing the boundaries of session etiquette. I'm there to participate - if I wanted to watch a concert performance I'd go to one. There's not much chance to get any sort of session dynamic rolling when someone gets their head that far up their bum. People are polite. We down tools, ponder our drinks and chatted, others pack up and leave. I'll take the onions next time. Perhaps people who think they are gun players sometimes overlook the participatory nature of a good session. It's not a stage.
Playing too fast? Playing too flashy? Sometimes, the reverse is true ...
A couple of newcomers turned up at one of our local sessions recently. They didn't wait for the regular players to start the session, but decided to kick it off themselves. OK, maybe not quite in accordance with session etiquette, but every dog is allowed one bite, so they say.
The tune? 'Twas Winster Gallop. Not the most esoteric tune in the book, but hey, we're not tune snobs, and being a polite bunch we all joined in. But the speed ... not Winster Gallop ... not Winster Canter not Winster trot - nor even Winster Walk. If that horse was on its way to the knackers yard it would have died before it got there. I've heard livlier funeral marches. We put that horse out of its misery at the end of the second time through.
Then followed loud protest from one of the newcomers: "But we've only played it twice!"
Yup- doesn't happen too often out here- we're in the boonies and most of us know each other but there IS one fiddle player that once he got going, well, I'd just sigh, put the fiddle away and call it a night- your basic one-man-show warp speed tunes only he knows sort of performance-not what I'd call a session for sure. Haven't seen him around for awhile now-am sure he must be out there but I just avoid running in the same circle.
It is a problem though if it happens repeatedly- I think if there is a session leader they need to be strong enough to at least confine this sort of thing to only the tunes he gets to start so at least most of the session is free of this.
Can be rough- there was a guy who attended sessions that I played at that insisted on playing really loudly(went through fiddle strings every few weeks!), and his timing was really off and he insisted he was in the right and the rest of us were wrong- the session leader there finally did talk to him but it was hard to get through to him. I used to shudder seeing him walk in, especially if he came to other sessions I was playing in as well. Haven't seen him in ages either- maybe they eventually burn out or sense the vibes???
I attend an open mike night occasionally. There is a fiddler who frequently asks me to join him for a couple tunes.
The problem is, he is not much of a fiddler yet, but seems satisfied with where he is at, and no harm. But he plays reels at his current level of skill, which is at a funereal pace which simply kills the tunes, IMHO or at least my personal taste.
What to do? I do not wish to appear a snob, he is a really fine fellow, and he simply loves to play. But I have not yet been able to bite the bullet and grind through a tune at 45 beats per second with him.
Sigh.
I'm one of the slower players in my sessions. I usually just sit out when somebody has run away with a tune. But if I start one myself, and somebody grabs on and ups the tempo where I can't keep up anymore, I usually say something at the end, like: "Hey, I thought the rule was that everyone follows the tempo of the starter. You left me in the dust on that one!" Usually everyone gets the point and is more careful next time around. Just a thought.
Festivals do attract hotshots. There's a lot of energy at festivals. It would be nice if the universal session etiquette could be observed at festivals more. It would be nice if the universal session etiquette could be observed at more sessions. Hotshots are a fact of life. They can be thwarted somewhat. Next time one of 'em is on a tear, you should lean in front of them to ask the person across from you what they think of the prospects of the local sports team this year. Use your parade ground voice.
This seems to be a universal problem. There is a fellow who occasionally attends one of my regular sessions and while a nice guy to chat with, he is overly enthusiastic about starting tunes. When he really gets going, it is impossible to squeeze in a tune edgewise. Most of his repertoire is pretty obscure so you end up with the one-man show. When he gets on a starting-every-set-roll, I'm pretty much done as I can't be bothered jostling for space.
Quite right, Jeremy Hughes. There's an unwritten rule which dicates that everybody should follow the tempo set by the person starting the set.
But there's another unwritten rule that says that you shouldn't lead a tune unless you are competent to do so. Competence would include the ablilty to play it at something approximating to the correct speed. Presumably, you are able to do this.
However, in the example I quoted in my earlier post to this thread, the persons concerned were playing a polka at about 30 beats per minute - pretty much dirge speed.
I totally disagree Im afraid clog - especially at a festival session. If there are a thousand tunes that get played that noone knows - then people should be putting effort in and learning other tunes. I mean really - we could sit here and play the kesh for 30 years, or go out and learn new tunes..no? Ive never understood why people seem to want other people at sessions to hold *their* hand and play tunes that *they*know so that *they* feel included. What? Go learn a fecking tune - really its not that hard and I'm not your babysitter. Some people call me a snob..but you know what - I'm actually not, I just play tunes that other people are too lazy to learn, as far as I'm concerned thats their problem - not mine!
Oh - and Ps the people who think that I'm a session snob or tune nazi as I have been called in the past seriously know hardly and tunes and if you play tunes that they dont know - which is pretty likely as they dont know anything - then somehow you are in the wrong. WTF?? Seriously
Yes, I would agree with you bb. I think learning tunes is a very important part of continually learning more about trad. Fair enough if it's a slow session, play all the old standards but surely everyone loves learning tunes. Our session usually has only 2 or 3 leads players and a couple of others so it's not typical but we always try to play a new set or two every week.
On the other hand we will always try to play a fair scattering of standards when there are visiting lead players. Mainly to be welcoming but also because the old tunes are Sooo much better when you haven't flogged them to death every week for months or years on end.
I couldn't agree more bb. To me a good session is one when I go and don't know the tunes being played because it means I'll go away with, at least the basis of, a whole load of new tunes beginning to be engrained in the brain. I work at learning new tunes, outside of the session, and when I'm sitting in the session hearing them for the 1st (or what is actually subconsciously the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or umpteenth time). There's nothing better than hearing and learning new tunes through the session and its incredibly satisfying to then play them right on the 3rd time though or the next time at the session, and then putting your own mark on them. A few standards never go amiss, but the less common ones keep my interest levels up alot more than those as common as muck... ....its just the way I'm built.
If I made the effort to travel to a festival... ...i'd expect that to be even more the case... ...as too the reciprocal delivery of tunes that few of the festival locals have in their regular diet.
at any big session there will be a proportion of players who can't play properly. They possibly don't know it , and probably will join in with tunes they can't play
so keep away from big sessions unless you can cope with lowest common denominator stuff. It can be good fun and possibly benefits beginners, but I'll concede that it can also be hard work for others
But bb, I think clogstepping is referring to the folks whose idea of a good session is to pick all, or most of the tunes; and then play them solo all night long. While some of you folks are fine enough musicians to carry this off, plenty of others aren't quite ready to emerge as solo players yet. Anyway, soloing all night long isn't what sessioning is about.
Yes, but clogs did say that three sets of obscure tunes were pushing it. But I say if everyone learnt them then they wouldnt be obscure anymore. Anyhow - you can't be a mind reader, especially at a festival where you play with people you've just met or hardly ever see. How are you supposed to know what tunes everyone knows? Unless you go down the kesh, St Annes, miss Mcleods path. Any that is lame because there are so many great tunes out there - do we really have to be playing the same 20 over and over again?
Not having a go at you clogs - just my idea of a nightmare session are the ones with no new tunes
Some of us reside where live Trad is scarce, and where it is any thing but at home. Our few, regular sessions need must be more inclusive of all skill levels. Any festival session here draws musicians from far and wide; usually with good representation of the intermediate-and-above levels of skill. They can be mad for tunes. Manic is a better way to describe it. Both women and men indulge in session hogging; so it's not testosterone poisoning. It can be likened more to the sensation of coming up to the surface to breathe, after a long spell under water.
I said three CONSECUTIVE sets - so nine new tunes in a row (and then some). I like to hear new tunes. And I'm willing to learn as many as I can. But wouldn't a considerate player play a couple of new tunes (by him/herself), then play something everyone can join in, then maybe throw in another couple of new tunes. Doesn't a session benefit from leavening - some new tunes, some more familiar? That's what I reckon a good session leader should be aiming for anyway.
You've got to "admire" the sheer social ineptitude of somebody playing solo for that long and thinking that it is appreciated by the rest of the session.
Sorry to barge in but this looked like an interesting discussion. Here's a little scenario of what can happen (particularly at festivals) Bob (fiddle) and Rob (flute) meet up for the first time in years. "Let's get a few tunes" . They crack away, few minutes later Jimmy and Timmy come along. Jimmy's a good guitarist, Timmy's just getting started on the box. Bob knows jimmy from home so invites him in. After a few more tunes they let Timmy knock out a couple of tunes ( nice one mate, been practicing eh?) Jo and Mo are kind of entry-level players too (both fiddle) but decide to pull out the fiddles and sit in anyway ( do you know the maid behind the bar, Timmy?) and so on and so on. Within 20 mins, Bob and Rob are bored to tears. Sure they could leave and go somewhere else, but 1) they're halfway through a pint 2) the girls are cute in here 3) they were there first. Screw it, let's play some crazy, fast, obscure nonsense if it'll get rid of these clowns!
Harsh? Yes
Selfish? Yes
Petty? Probably
Can you blame them? Not a bit (in my opinion)
This type of thing sound familiar to anyone? It does to me..... In fact i'm sure, looking back throughout my playing career i've been every character in the story.
I think clogstepping and I are more or less saying the same things. I love hearing new tunes but also hearing old ones. That's not the issue. My gripe is with people who start more than one contiguous set, playing tunes only they know. This sort is really opportunistic about starting tunes at every gap between sets so there's no space for anyone else to get one in unless they're even faster out of the starting gate. To boot they might not have the playing ability to back the attitude (at the moment I can't think of any really good players offhand who do this -- why is it always the mediocre ones). What are you doing here if you just want to listen to yourself *all* night? Honestly!
If I wanted a long solo performance, I'd go to a gig.
If I wanted a race, I'd find the local track and watch the thoroughbreds.
That said, the other almost-as-annoying scenario is definitely the session that hasn't seen a new tune in ten years. Sure, they are all playing together but there's no life in it You want to hear new tunes now and then!
The other good one was a session in a place I used to live where some of the regulars really, really wanted to play the same old sets to death, whereas a few of us, including the session's leader, were more into exploring the music, bringing new sets to the table. The former group would get bored because they hadn't had St. Anne's or whatever yet and spiral into their own wee circle, fiddling or strumming quietly to each other, their own mini session. The session leader understandably had very little patience for this behaviour and would caustically yell things across the room like, "Do you want to play that where the class can hear?"
Third unwritten rule - don't play two consecutive tunes no-one else knows, unless you have a very valid reason. If you have got to the second tune and no-one has joined in, give it a rest.
A valid reason might be that you are coming to the next session and will play the same pair of tunes again, hoping someone has picked up bits of it.
By the same token, if there are good musicians there and they don't join in, you might have simply picked the wrong tunes (or wrong time to play them)
chrysophylax, I think I know exactly what you mean! Oh the times I must have really p*ssed others off.... and I cringe with embarrasment again and again when I think of it. Trying to be more considerate these days.
I think it all comes down to 'gauging' the session in which you're playing and not trying to impose your style over others. If you sit in a session of beginners and insist on starting fast, more obscure tunes, what's the point? Why don't you play with people who are actually going to play with you, is it because you need admirers to feel better about yourself? Sometimes I wonder why some sessionners won't simply stay home and play while looking at their reflection in the mirror...
I suppose everyone overindulges now and again. Especially in festival situations it's easy to get carried away. And i'm sure we've all come across (or been one of) those characters who are used to being the biggest fish in whatever small pond they're used to playing in, and try and pull the same stunts they usually pull. It can brutal to watch. Or wickedly entertaining depending on your mood!
Sometimes the interplay between really good (and competitive) players can result in an intense & exciting musical experience but those outside 'the zone' can have a completely different perspective.
DB That's a useful observation. It pays to put yourself in the other person's shoes at times and perhaps just sitting back, chilling out and enjoying a good performance is what's called for.
When I play new and obscure tunes with friends at sessions, I always come armed with the knowledge of where they can find the tune (e.g. Fakebook, O'Neill's, Recordings, The Session...&c.). That way, if anyone has an interest in joining in at a future date, they can get off their duff in between and look it up, be prepared, and join in. i have a rule in a three-tune set. First tune: Maybe obscure. Second tune: Played in sessions before. Third tune: the old standards never hurt anybody. That way, everyone is satisfied.
As for speed. Always push the envelope while being considerate as possible. New players will never improve unless challenged.
How about go around the circle and everyone gets a pick (more or less, not being rigid about it)? At big jams/festivals this seems to work well. Honestly a very, very easy solution. No one is going to know (and LIKE) everything. At least this way everyone gets a chance to pick their "pet" tune. And it keeps one person from taking over a session.
Session wreckers
Session wreckers
No, not bodhran players but a single fiddler, drunk on his own testosterone, turning a session into a p*ssing competition. How often does this happen and how do people deal with it?
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by zepherin
Re: Session wreckers
Doesn't sound as though your question is theoretical - presumably you've raised it as result of some recent experience ...
So, spill the beans - which session would this be, then?
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Session wreckers
Mix - you don't really expect an answer do you?
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by zepherin
Re: Session wreckers
We happen to have a VERY accomplished fiddle player, who is also one of the most mellow musicians imaginable, but.... Some time ago, we had a testosteronized bouzouki player show up who fit your description by dominating the scene, and wrecking the session. He launched on yet another tune at 90 wreckless mph, and was joined by our man, who after the obligatory third time through, continued to play the tune faster, louder and with more variations and ornaments thought possible. After about five minutes, the message was very clear, even to the protagonist, but to drive the nail completely through the board, our man went another five minutes, ending with a flair that would make John Philip Sousa blush, and a glare that shocked us all. The bouzouki player has not returned, and hopefully has warned his comrades to steer clear of our session. Not all sessions are so lucky to have that sort of solution. Therefore, this is a good question. My solution would be to stop playing entirely, and let the villain drown in his own p*ss. It might take a session or two, but I think he'd/she'd get the message and go elsewhere.
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by jtrout
Re: Session wreckers
I'd just ask him to stop. I don't understand the problem.
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Session wreckers
clogstepping ~ no specifics required, but I love a good story... Please, tell us more. And yes, most of us have been on the recieving end of an exploding ego maniac... It's a mess to clean up, shight everywhere...
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Session wreckers
Imagine the session as a dog sled team, and this person, whatever their instrument, is the 'driver', only one who not only likes to be in the driving seat, pushing us dogs on and maybe even using thier instrument as a weapon of torture, the whip. Now remember, we are not that far removed from the wild, we who are possessed by music. Too much of that whip and the wolves arise from the puppies and we'll have his guts for dinner...
Best to deal with it sooner than let it get that far, eh?
When living in the smoke, Dublin, or anyplace with more than one session going, it hasn't been unknown for instruments down or cases to close and more attention given to the pint. In some cases, and I know it's a cop out, we'd get up and leave and find someplace else to make music. But, I realize that isn't always an option. So, as hard as it is, someone has to deal with it, sooner rather than later. If they can't manage honesty and courtesy, well, they'll probably, hopefully, get up and find someplace else for their display...
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Session wreckers
eh? do you not think thats a silly thing to say about dublin ceolachan? i play in dublin and i cant say that it happens all the time. i dunno aout the other cities now though. but you're going to get that anywhere. i was at the ennis trad fest last year and in all honesty you could have been at any type of festival for the amount of people in pubs, not being able to hear music and what not. i wouldnt say that what you said is completely confined to cities though. you're always gonna get it somewhere. as far as yer man, the fiddle player, just te ll him to stop, you'd be doing him a favour! just put it to him politely.
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Session wreckers
If the player was ruining your afternoon or evening evening session, why not ruin his playing ego by asking him or her to stop so everyone can enjoy the time there.
I don't understand why didn't someone speak up and nip in the bud. Where was the session leader? Why tolerate that kind of bull droppings?
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by Cape Cod Struggler
Re: Session wreckers
Is this fiddler a regular fixture at your session? Maybe he goes into 'must' no more than once or twice a year; in which case, you could make allowences for it. The next onset, sit behind him and have all the other gals do likewise so that he can't see any of you. It's only for that one night, possibly two consecutive session nights. He should be his old sweet self after about two weeks. You would only embarrass him if you told him about the things he got up to while he was in the grip of testosterone poisoning. Other, trickier remedies involve decanting the stuff.
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session wreckers
Exhaust all other possible remedies first, before you resort to the pruning shears. Should it come to that, then do what you have to do humanely and quickly. Make a hash of it, and there's a good chance of property damage, injury to other sessioners, even death; in which case you would most certainly have to have him put down.
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session wreckers
stop playing and talk
# Posted on November 8th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: Session wreckers
Peel an entire 50 lbs bag of onions at the table?
Oh, and dont forget to make constant references to the television show Allo, allo.
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Session wreckers
It's a religious thing, drinkin' your own p*ss and O-D-ing on the testosterone... Sorry clogstepping, I won't do it again... Coming down from that rush was awful ~ and I ended up having to get the bow rehaired, that damned cheap Chinese rosin...
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Session wreckers
I'm not referring to my usual session, which is a wonderfully well-run, friendly and enjoyable evening's activity. I'm thinking about something I've observed at festival sessions. Now I like hearing new and obscure tunes and am quite prepared to put the drum down for whole slices of sessions, and sit back to listen and learn. One set of new and obscure tunes is perfectly acceptable, even if there's only one player playing them with 15-20 other sessioners sitting round politiely observing. At a pinch I could take two consecutive sets if the tunes are good and the fiddler or other single instrumentalist is a pretty good player. But three - or more - consecutive sets (with each tune played not once but two/ three times round) of the new and obscure, known only to the one player, seems to me to be pushing the boundaries of session etiquette. I'm there to participate - if I wanted to watch a concert performance I'd go to one. There's not much chance to get any sort of session dynamic rolling when someone gets their head that far up their bum. People are polite. We down tools, ponder our drinks and chatted, others pack up and leave. I'll take the onions next time. Perhaps people who think they are gun players sometimes overlook the participatory nature of a good session. It's not a stage.
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by zepherin
Re: Session wreckers
Playing too fast? Playing too flashy? Sometimes, the reverse is true ...
A couple of newcomers turned up at one of our local sessions recently. They didn't wait for the regular players to start the session, but decided to kick it off themselves. OK, maybe not quite in accordance with session etiquette, but every dog is allowed one bite, so they say.
The tune? 'Twas Winster Gallop. Not the most esoteric tune in the book, but hey, we're not tune snobs, and being a polite bunch we all joined in. But the speed ... not Winster Gallop ... not Winster Canter not Winster trot - nor even Winster Walk. If that horse was on its way to the knackers yard it would have died before it got there. I've heard livlier funeral marches. We put that horse out of its misery at the end of the second time through.
Then followed loud protest from one of the newcomers: "But we've only played it twice!"
Argghh!!!
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Session wreckers
Yup- doesn't happen too often out here- we're in the boonies and most of us know each other but there IS one fiddle player that once he got going, well, I'd just sigh, put the fiddle away and call it a night- your basic one-man-show warp speed tunes only he knows sort of performance-not what I'd call a session for sure. Haven't seen him around for awhile now-am sure he must be out there but I just avoid running in the same circle.
It is a problem though if it happens repeatedly- I think if there is a session leader they need to be strong enough to at least confine this sort of thing to only the tunes he gets to start so at least most of the session is free of this.
Can be rough- there was a guy who attended sessions that I played at that insisted on playing really loudly(went through fiddle strings every few weeks!), and his timing was really off and he insisted he was in the right and the rest of us were wrong- the session leader there finally did talk to him but it was hard to get through to him. I used to shudder seeing him walk in, especially if he came to other sessions I was playing in as well. Haven't seen him in ages either- maybe they eventually burn out or sense the vibes???
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by fiddlinfarmer
Re: Session wreckers
I attend an open mike night occasionally. There is a fiddler who frequently asks me to join him for a couple tunes.
The problem is, he is not much of a fiddler yet, but seems satisfied with where he is at, and no harm. But he plays reels at his current level of skill, which is at a funereal pace which simply kills the tunes, IMHO or at least my personal taste.
What to do? I do not wish to appear a snob, he is a really fine fellow, and he simply loves to play. But I have not yet been able to bite the bullet and grind through a tune at 45 beats per second with him.
Sigh.
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by Piece
Re: Session wreckers
per minute, not second
sorry
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by Piece
Re: Session wreckers
I'm one of the slower players in my sessions. I usually just sit out when somebody has run away with a tune. But if I start one myself, and somebody grabs on and ups the tempo where I can't keep up anymore, I usually say something at the end, like: "Hey, I thought the rule was that everyone follows the tempo of the starter. You left me in the dust on that one!" Usually everyone gets the point and is more careful next time around. Just a thought.
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by Jeremy Hughes
Re: Session wreckers
Festivals do attract hotshots. There's a lot of energy at festivals. It would be nice if the universal session etiquette could be observed at festivals more. It would be nice if the universal session etiquette could be observed at more sessions. Hotshots are a fact of life. They can be thwarted somewhat. Next time one of 'em is on a tear, you should lean in front of them to ask the person across from you what they think of the prospects of the local sports team this year. Use your parade ground voice.
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session wreckers
This seems to be a universal problem. There is a fellow who occasionally attends one of my regular sessions and while a nice guy to chat with, he is overly enthusiastic about starting tunes. When he really gets going, it is impossible to squeeze in a tune edgewise. Most of his repertoire is pretty obscure so you end up with the one-man show. When he gets on a starting-every-set-roll, I'm pretty much done as I can't be bothered jostling for space.
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session wreckers
Quite right, Jeremy Hughes. There's an unwritten rule which dicates that everybody should follow the tempo set by the person starting the set.
But there's another unwritten rule that says that you shouldn't lead a tune unless you are competent to do so. Competence would include the ablilty to play it at something approximating to the correct speed. Presumably, you are able to do this.
However, in the example I quoted in my earlier post to this thread, the persons concerned were playing a polka at about 30 beats per minute - pretty much dirge speed.
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Session wreckers
Heh.. Maybe it was Martin Hayes, playing The Britches Full of Stitches!
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Session wreckers
At any rate, mea culpa mea culpa, mea maxima f****** culpa, I'm sure.
But I things have gotten better since I switched from caffeine to alcohol.
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Session wreckers
I totally disagree Im afraid clog - especially at a festival session. If there are a thousand tunes that get played that noone knows - then people should be putting effort in and learning other tunes. I mean really - we could sit here and play the kesh for 30 years, or go out and learn new tunes..no? Ive never understood why people seem to want other people at sessions to hold *their* hand and play tunes that *they*know so that *they* feel included. What? Go learn a fecking tune - really its not that hard and I'm not your babysitter. Some people call me a snob..but you know what - I'm actually not, I just play tunes that other people are too lazy to learn, as far as I'm concerned thats their problem - not mine!
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by bb
Re: Session wreckers
Oh - and Ps the people who think that I'm a session snob or tune nazi as I have been called in the past seriously know hardly and tunes and if you play tunes that they dont know - which is pretty likely as they dont know anything - then somehow you are in the wrong. WTF?? Seriously
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by bb
Re: Session wreckers
Yes, I would agree with you bb. I think learning tunes is a very important part of continually learning more about trad. Fair enough if it's a slow session, play all the old standards but surely everyone loves learning tunes. Our session usually has only 2 or 3 leads players and a couple of others so it's not typical but we always try to play a new set or two every week.
On the other hand we will always try to play a fair scattering of standards when there are visiting lead players. Mainly to be welcoming but also because the old tunes are Sooo much better when you haven't flogged them to death every week for months or years on end.
# Posted on November 9th 2008 by bogman
Re: Session wreckers
PPS - I've read my post again and it kind of looks like I'm telling Clogs to go learn a new tune - I wasnt though - I just meant people in general!
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Session wreckers
I couldn't agree more bb. To me a good session is one when I go and don't know the tunes being played because it means I'll go away with, at least the basis of, a whole load of new tunes beginning to be engrained in the brain. I work at learning new tunes, outside of the session, and when I'm sitting in the session hearing them for the 1st (or what is actually subconsciously the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or umpteenth time). There's nothing better than hearing and learning new tunes through the session and its incredibly satisfying to then play them right on the 3rd time though or the next time at the session, and then putting your own mark on them. A few standards never go amiss, but the less common ones keep my interest levels up alot more than those as common as muck... ....its just the way I'm built.
If I made the effort to travel to a festival... ...i'd expect that to be even more the case... ...as too the reciprocal delivery of tunes that few of the festival locals have in their regular diet.
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by Jamie
Re: Session wreckers
at any big session there will be a proportion of players who can't play properly. They possibly don't know it , and probably will join in with tunes they can't play
so keep away from big sessions unless you can cope with lowest common denominator stuff. It can be good fun and possibly benefits beginners, but I'll concede that it can also be hard work for others
we were all beginners once
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: Session wreckers
But bb, I think clogstepping is referring to the folks whose idea of a good session is to pick all, or most of the tunes; and then play them solo all night long. While some of you folks are fine enough musicians to carry this off, plenty of others aren't quite ready to emerge as solo players yet. Anyway, soloing all night long isn't what sessioning is about.
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session wreckers
Right on jamie - thats the same as me. I am happy to sit in a session and hear new tunes all night - it makes me motivated!
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Session wreckers
Yes, but clogs did say that three sets of obscure tunes were pushing it. But I say if everyone learnt them then they wouldnt be obscure anymore. Anyhow - you can't be a mind reader, especially at a festival where you play with people you've just met or hardly ever see. How are you supposed to know what tunes everyone knows? Unless you go down the kesh, St Annes, miss Mcleods path. Any that is lame because there are so many great tunes out there - do we really have to be playing the same 20 over and over again?
Not having a go at you clogs - just my idea of a nightmare session are the ones with no new tunes
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Session wreckers
Some of us reside where live Trad is scarce, and where it is any thing but at home. Our few, regular sessions need must be more inclusive of all skill levels. Any festival session here draws musicians from far and wide; usually with good representation of the intermediate-and-above levels of skill. They can be mad for tunes. Manic is a better way to describe it. Both women and men indulge in session hogging; so it's not testosterone poisoning. It can be likened more to the sensation of coming up to the surface to breathe, after a long spell under water.
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session wreckers
Yes - i live where trad is very scarce - doesnt mean I am going to play the Kesh at sessions
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Session wreckers
Oh, go on. Play it. Go on.
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by Bren
Re: Session wreckers
True, a nightmarre session is all the same tunes, over and over again; week after week month after month.......
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session wreckers
There can be nightmare discussions too. [ Chuckles to self ]
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Session wreckers
I said three CONSECUTIVE sets - so nine new tunes in a row (and then some). I like to hear new tunes. And I'm willing to learn as many as I can. But wouldn't a considerate player play a couple of new tunes (by him/herself), then play something everyone can join in, then maybe throw in another couple of new tunes. Doesn't a session benefit from leavening - some new tunes, some more familiar? That's what I reckon a good session leader should be aiming for anyway.
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by zepherin
Re: Session wreckers
You've got to "admire" the sheer social ineptitude of somebody playing solo for that long and thinking that it is appreciated by the rest of the session.
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by TaoCat
Re: Session wreckers
Sorry to barge in but this looked like an interesting discussion. Here's a little scenario of what can happen (particularly at festivals) Bob (fiddle) and Rob (flute) meet up for the first time in years. "Let's get a few tunes" . They crack away, few minutes later Jimmy and Timmy come along. Jimmy's a good guitarist, Timmy's just getting started on the box. Bob knows jimmy from home so invites him in. After a few more tunes they let Timmy knock out a couple of tunes ( nice one mate, been practicing eh?) Jo and Mo are kind of entry-level players too (both fiddle) but decide to pull out the fiddles and sit in anyway ( do you know the maid behind the bar, Timmy?) and so on and so on. Within 20 mins, Bob and Rob are bored to tears. Sure they could leave and go somewhere else, but 1) they're halfway through a pint 2) the girls are cute in here 3) they were there first. Screw it, let's play some crazy, fast, obscure nonsense if it'll get rid of these clowns!
Harsh? Yes
Selfish? Yes
Petty? Probably
Can you blame them? Not a bit (in my opinion)
This type of thing sound familiar to anyone? It does to me..... In fact i'm sure, looking back throughout my playing career i've been every character in the story.
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by chrysophylax
Re: Session wreckers
LOL. I can appreciate that scenario!
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by zepherin
Re: Session wreckers
I think clogstepping and I are more or less saying the same things. I love hearing new tunes but also hearing old ones. That's not the issue. My gripe is with people who start more than one contiguous set, playing tunes only they know. This sort is really opportunistic about starting tunes at every gap between sets so there's no space for anyone else to get one in unless they're even faster out of the starting gate. To boot they might not have the playing ability to back the attitude (at the moment I can't think of any really good players offhand who do this -- why is it always the mediocre ones). What are you doing here if you just want to listen to yourself *all* night? Honestly!
If I wanted a long solo performance, I'd go to a gig.
If I wanted a race, I'd find the local track and watch the thoroughbreds.
That said, the other almost-as-annoying scenario is definitely the session that hasn't seen a new tune in ten years. Sure, they are all playing together but there's no life in it You want to hear new tunes now and then!
The other good one was a session in a place I used to live where some of the regulars really, really wanted to play the same old sets to death, whereas a few of us, including the session's leader, were more into exploring the music, bringing new sets to the table. The former group would get bored because they hadn't had St. Anne's or whatever yet and spiral into their own wee circle, fiddling or strumming quietly to each other, their own mini session. The session leader understandably had very little patience for this behaviour and would caustically yell things across the room like, "Do you want to play that where the class can hear?"
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session wreckers
Third unwritten rule - don't play two consecutive tunes no-one else knows, unless you have a very valid reason. If you have got to the second tune and no-one has joined in, give it a rest.
A valid reason might be that you are coming to the next session and will play the same pair of tunes again, hoping someone has picked up bits of it.
By the same token, if there are good musicians there and they don't join in, you might have simply picked the wrong tunes (or wrong time to play them)
# Posted on November 10th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Session wreckers
chrysophylax, I think I know exactly what you mean! Oh the times I must have really p*ssed others off.... and I cringe with embarrasment again and again when I think of it. Trying to be more considerate these days.
# Posted on November 11th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Session wreckers
Silver Spear - you've got it in one. That's exactly the situation I'm trying to describe. You expressed it far more eloquently though!
# Posted on November 11th 2008 by zepherin
Re: Session wreckers
I think it all comes down to 'gauging' the session in which you're playing and not trying to impose your style over others. If you sit in a session of beginners and insist on starting fast, more obscure tunes, what's the point? Why don't you play with people who are actually going to play with you, is it because you need admirers to feel better about yourself? Sometimes I wonder why some sessionners won't simply stay home and play while looking at their reflection in the mirror...
# Posted on November 11th 2008 by Azalin
Re: Session wreckers
I suppose everyone overindulges now and again. Especially in festival situations it's easy to get carried away. And i'm sure we've all come across (or been one of) those characters who are used to being the biggest fish in whatever small pond they're used to playing in, and try and pull the same stunts they usually pull. It can brutal to watch. Or wickedly entertaining depending on your mood!
# Posted on November 11th 2008 by chrysophylax
Re: Session wreckers
I agree with Azalin.
# Posted on November 11th 2008 by bb
Re: Session wreckers
hi clogs,
Sometimes the interplay between really good (and competitive) players can result in an intense & exciting musical experience but those outside 'the zone' can have a completely different perspective.
Aren't sessions fascinating
# Posted on November 12th 2008 by dogbox
Re: Session wreckers
DB That's a useful observation. It pays to put yourself in the other person's shoes at times and perhaps just sitting back, chilling out and enjoying a good performance is what's called for.
# Posted on November 12th 2008 by zepherin
Re: Session wreckers
When I play new and obscure tunes with friends at sessions, I always come armed with the knowledge of where they can find the tune (e.g. Fakebook, O'Neill's, Recordings, The Session...&c.). That way, if anyone has an interest in joining in at a future date, they can get off their duff in between and look it up, be prepared, and join in. i have a rule in a three-tune set. First tune: Maybe obscure. Second tune: Played in sessions before. Third tune: the old standards never hurt anybody. That way, everyone is satisfied.
As for speed. Always push the envelope while being considerate as possible. New players will never improve unless challenged.
# Posted on November 14th 2008 by croi
Re: Session wreckers
Not everyone goes down to the pub to be "improved" or "challenged"
# Posted on November 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Session wreckers
Maybe not Bren - but those who do should not feel they have to hold back just because others don't want to improve.
# Posted on November 14th 2008 by bb
Re: Session wreckers
Jeez, I can stay home and get nagged at. I don't need to go to the pub.
# Posted on November 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Session wreckers
You're probably being nagged to play a different tune every once in a while!
# Posted on November 14th 2008 by croi
Re: Session wreckers
My wife says I am so imperfect that trying to improve me would be a waste of time, energy, and effort.
# Posted on November 14th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Session wreckers
All the more reason to go to the pub, croi.
It's not a bloody nightschool
Although, hmm - just off for a spot of self-improvement, dear ..
# Posted on November 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Session wreckers
My wife wouldn't believe me if I told her that.
# Posted on November 17th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Session wreckers
How about go around the circle and everyone gets a pick (more or less, not being rigid about it)? At big jams/festivals this seems to work well. Honestly a very, very easy solution. No one is going to know (and LIKE) everything. At least this way everyone gets a chance to pick their "pet" tune. And it keeps one person from taking over a session.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Hyla
Re: Session wreckers
Q. Would "Pet of the Pipers" qualify as a ""pet tune"?
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Session wreckers
Sure
Maybe even Saddle the Pony.
# Posted on December 11th 2008 by Hyla
Re: Session wreckers
Cat in the cupboard?
# Posted on December 12th 2008 by Hyla