I just got another Irish flute a couple of months ago and since I now have two, I started giving 'lessons' to a friend of mine who's played classical flute for years.
I'm just teaching her tunes and making her play them by ear and she is progressing quite well. But do you have any tips how to help her get rid of the breathing that you use with classical flute?
I was a classical flutist also at first, but I haven't a notion, when I got rid of the 'classical breathing'. Maybe it just takes some time..
"classical breathing" - what is that? Do you mean breathing from the diaphgragm? Taking big deep breaths when you can, supporting your tone properly using the abdominal muscles? If so then you shouldn't change it for this sort of music.
If you're talking about a vibrato that you can't turn off - which is incidentally not a particularly nice effect in classical music either... - then you should know it is usually a sign of too weak abdominal support. This leads to the muscles wobbling and a rather nasty involuntary vibrato that results from this inconstant pressure.
A nice good classical vibrato is under the control of the player and there should be no need to ask how to turn it off...
If you're talking embouchure and have only ever learnt one shape of embouchure then you may need to learn another. In the trad world, the embouchure hole is often much more covered by the lips, the air dierection is more down into the flute rather than accross it and the lip hole is mostly more closed. But not to the point of pinching off the air - that is where a good strong support from the abdomen comes in.
And learn _not_ to tongue by default. This doesn't mean tonuing is always wrong, just that always tonguing is wrong.
Actually, I meant with classical breathing WHERE you breath. Like playing a phrase at a time and starting to see that the phrases are not the same and don't have to be the same every time you play the same tune.
I am have recently started to play Irish flute,about a year now, after playing classical clarinet for twenty years. I think the main difference between 'classical breathing' and breathing in ITM is that you have to train yourself to breathe in places that you wouldn't dream of in classical music, leaving notes out or cutting notes short. This is something I am stuggling with. In most classical music there are rests in which to take discreet breaths, or you can take a breath at the end of a phrase. In ITM I find myself running out of breath before I have decided where I can take a breath, or If I force myself to take a breath I lose my place in the tune. I find this is worse if I learn a tune from dots first. If I learn a tune by ear first (something else I am struggling with) I can copy Where to breathe from the person playing the tune that I am learning from.
I agree, I have the same problem with my low whistle playing. Learning where other people are breathing helps enormously, but getting beyond that copying thing takes another leap. You have to treat the breaths as part of the tune. It's not a rest, were there is a natural break, like in classical pieces. The breath is a percusive thing that helps drive the tune.
And learning this is helping my fiddle playing no end.
Breathing is an important element of style in this music (indeed, in all flute music). It is not about unlearning habits, rather about taking responsibility for the decision yourself, since no handy composer has helpfully written in where to do it. There are various places that I like to use.
e.g. in a jig, drop the middle note of a triplet, or convert a long roll into a triplet with the middle note being the breath.
in reels, long rolls are also good options for splitting up. Dropping the last note of a four note group also work, particularly where you think the tune has a natural bit of phrasing.
Any long note is a candidate for chopping short and having a breath, while any short note is a candidate for dropping entirely. Be very aware of how you volume and tone are affected by breathing. e.g. if you play a note quietly, breath in and then with nice full lungs play the next note loudly thenpeople will here that. So you'd better be doing at a place in the tune where that is ok.
And there is also the option when not playing solo of just letting your fingers continue to play along (silently) while breathing in.
Try to avoid breathing at the end of every part of the tune - in fact try to always have more possible breathing places worked out than you need so that you can vary between repetitions.
That's good advice, all stuff I've been working out, and the trick, as with all of this, is to do it subconsciously. And, for example, on the fiddle it's great to vary a long roll into a triplet with the middle note being a short lift of the bow.
Another thing you hear good flute players do, especially at a tempo where there simply isn't time to fill your lungs in these short spaces, is to take three or four breaths in 6 or 7 bars and then have enough air to play through the end of the tune and half way through the next.
Absolutely, I call them top-up breaths. No need to play to the end of your lungs and then take a huge (and very noticeable) breath when you can get a long way taking lots of small very sips of air.
As a former classical flutist turned Irish, I found it helps to think about the breathing being part of the rhythm of the tune, like a percussion effect. I noticed this when I first started listening to Altan recordings. The breathing is done at shorter intervals than in classical music and there is usually no break in the tune to squeeze a breath in, so you strategically skip a note or two and put a breath in place of it without breaking the rhythm of the tune. It takes practice because hit must be done deliberately and anticipated to work right.
I think jigs are easier on any instrument. But I still think you should be trying to play reels from the start. You will probably progress quicker with jigs and so get more satisfaction out of them initially, but if anything, that means it's even more important to try to play reels from the start, because they'll need more practice.
start by figuring a place to breathe in every measure, then work your way down until you're comfortable, then keep changing the places you take your breath. i think it was Jack Coen who said, "breathe when you need to".
Thanks for the good advice!! We actually started with a reel, but the next tune was a jig and I've taught her more jigs now at the beginning since they really are easier. Easier to explain
I notice that when I teach her a tune, bit by bit, she takes breaths where I do, but then when I write down the tunes for her to practice at home (she can remember them quite well but that takes also time when you've always had sheet music..) she starts phrasing them the way I've written them. It helps a bit if I use letters to write down the music because that's not what she's used to.
I find this a really interesting project because I started with classical flute as well and have now been playing ITM for five years. I notice similarities in our progress. It took me a longer time to get there though since there are no sessions round here and very few trad musicians and that usually local trad.
I've always found it helpful to whistle or hum tune when not playing an instrument. Here you can readily practice dropping notes and changing phrases whilst keeping the rhythm. And of course, because you need to breath, you're forced to.
In the long run i think your classical training will be an asset. in the short run, however, it'll mess you up. but you'll firgure it out. just give it time. where when and how to breathe in a tune will become second nature. effortless even. you'll see.
Teaching the flute
Teaching the flute
I just got another Irish flute a couple of months ago and since I now have two, I started giving 'lessons' to a friend of mine who's played classical flute for years.
I'm just teaching her tunes and making her play them by ear and she is progressing quite well. But do you have any tips how to help her get rid of the breathing that you use with classical flute?
I was a classical flutist also at first, but I haven't a notion, when I got rid of the 'classical breathing'. Maybe it just takes some time..
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by mear
Re: Teaching the flute
"classical breathing" - what is that? Do you mean breathing from the diaphgragm? Taking big deep breaths when you can, supporting your tone properly using the abdominal muscles? If so then you shouldn't change it for this sort of music.
If you're talking about a vibrato that you can't turn off - which is incidentally not a particularly nice effect in classical music either... - then you should know it is usually a sign of too weak abdominal support. This leads to the muscles wobbling and a rather nasty involuntary vibrato that results from this inconstant pressure.
A nice good classical vibrato is under the control of the player and there should be no need to ask how to turn it off...
If you're talking embouchure and have only ever learnt one shape of embouchure then you may need to learn another. In the trad world, the embouchure hole is often much more covered by the lips, the air dierection is more down into the flute rather than accross it and the lip hole is mostly more closed. But not to the point of pinching off the air - that is where a good strong support from the abdomen comes in.
And learn _not_ to tongue by default. This doesn't mean tonuing is always wrong, just that always tonguing is wrong.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Teaching the flute
Actually, I meant with classical breathing WHERE you breath. Like playing a phrase at a time and starting to see that the phrases are not the same and don't have to be the same every time you play the same tune.
Oh, well, I guess it just comes with practice.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by mear
Re: Teaching the flute
I am have recently started to play Irish flute,about a year now, after playing classical clarinet for twenty years. I think the main difference between 'classical breathing' and breathing in ITM is that you have to train yourself to breathe in places that you wouldn't dream of in classical music, leaving notes out or cutting notes short. This is something I am stuggling with. In most classical music there are rests in which to take discreet breaths, or you can take a breath at the end of a phrase. In ITM I find myself running out of breath before I have decided where I can take a breath, or If I force myself to take a breath I lose my place in the tune. I find this is worse if I learn a tune from dots first. If I learn a tune by ear first (something else I am struggling with) I can copy Where to breathe from the person playing the tune that I am learning from.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by neilowen
Re: Teaching the flute
I agree, I have the same problem with my low whistle playing. Learning where other people are breathing helps enormously, but getting beyond that copying thing takes another leap. You have to treat the breaths as part of the tune. It's not a rest, were there is a natural break, like in classical pieces. The breath is a percusive thing that helps drive the tune.
And learning this is helping my fiddle playing no end.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by ...
Re: Teaching the flute
Breathing is an important element of style in this music (indeed, in all flute music). It is not about unlearning habits, rather about taking responsibility for the decision yourself, since no handy composer has helpfully written in where to do it. There are various places that I like to use.
e.g. in a jig, drop the middle note of a triplet, or convert a long roll into a triplet with the middle note being the breath.
in reels, long rolls are also good options for splitting up. Dropping the last note of a four note group also work, particularly where you think the tune has a natural bit of phrasing.
Any long note is a candidate for chopping short and having a breath, while any short note is a candidate for dropping entirely. Be very aware of how you volume and tone are affected by breathing. e.g. if you play a note quietly, breath in and then with nice full lungs play the next note loudly thenpeople will here that. So you'd better be doing at a place in the tune where that is ok.
And there is also the option when not playing solo of just letting your fingers continue to play along (silently) while breathing in.
Try to avoid breathing at the end of every part of the tune - in fact try to always have more possible breathing places worked out than you need so that you can vary between repetitions.
Chris
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Teaching the flute
That's good advice, all stuff I've been working out, and the trick, as with all of this, is to do it subconsciously. And, for example, on the fiddle it's great to vary a long roll into a triplet with the middle note being a short lift of the bow.
Another thing you hear good flute players do, especially at a tempo where there simply isn't time to fill your lungs in these short spaces, is to take three or four breaths in 6 or 7 bars and then have enough air to play through the end of the tune and half way through the next.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by ...
Re: Teaching the flute
Absolutely, I call them top-up breaths. No need to play to the end of your lungs and then take a huge (and very noticeable) breath when you can get a long way taking lots of small very sips of air.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Teaching the flute
As a former classical flutist turned Irish, I found it helps to think about the breathing being part of the rhythm of the tune, like a percussion effect. I noticed this when I first started listening to Altan recordings. The breathing is done at shorter intervals than in classical music and there is usually no break in the tune to squeeze a breath in, so you strategically skip a note or two and put a breath in place of it without breaking the rhythm of the tune. It takes practice because hit must be done deliberately and anticipated to work right.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by jasonlburnfield
Re: Teaching the flute
For what its worth, I found that jigs have obvious and natural places to take breaths compared to reels, so start your student off with them.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by jtrout
Re: Teaching the flute
I think jigs are easier on any instrument. But I still think you should be trying to play reels from the start. You will probably progress quicker with jigs and so get more satisfaction out of them initially, but if anything, that means it's even more important to try to play reels from the start, because they'll need more practice.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by ...
Re: Teaching the flute
Lots of listening--and time--helped me to change breathing habits when transitioning from classical to Irish flute playing.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by mcswiss
Re: Teaching the flute
start by figuring a place to breathe in every measure, then work your way down until you're comfortable, then keep changing the places you take your breath. i think it was Jack Coen who said, "breathe when you need to".
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by Dont
Re: Teaching the flute
Thanks for the good advice!! We actually started with a reel, but the next tune was a jig and I've taught her more jigs now at the beginning since they really are easier. Easier to explain
I notice that when I teach her a tune, bit by bit, she takes breaths where I do, but then when I write down the tunes for her to practice at home (she can remember them quite well but that takes also time when you've always had sheet music..) she starts phrasing them the way I've written them. It helps a bit if I use letters to write down the music because that's not what she's used to.
I find this a really interesting project because I started with classical flute as well and have now been playing ITM for five years. I notice similarities in our progress. It took me a longer time to get there though since there are no sessions round here and very few trad musicians and that usually local trad.
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by mear
Re: Teaching the flute
I've always found it helpful to whistle or hum tune when not playing an instrument. Here you can readily practice dropping notes and changing phrases whilst keeping the rhythm. And of course, because you need to breath, you're forced to.
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Teaching the flute
In the long run i think your classical training will be an asset. in the short run, however, it'll mess you up. but you'll firgure it out. just give it time. where when and how to breathe in a tune will become second nature. effortless even. you'll see.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by Brendan