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Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I have been playing Irish Traditional music since I was a young child. Needless to say I live and breathe it still. I play a variety of instruments, but the one I am most asked to play is the Guitar.
As I have got older, I am increasingly of the opinion that the music needs no accompaniment!
I enjoy listening to the music without "backing" as I can fill in the harmony in my own head, without listening to someone else's "perscribed" chords.
As a result, I began just picking tunes on the guitar (not backing them) along with the rest of the melody players.
To my surprise, very few people in the group were happy to play without my accompaniment and i went back to filling in the harmony.
Why is it that trad players feel the need for "backing" all the time?
What is the role of the Guitar in Traditional Irish music?
Should it be there at all? If so, what part should it play?
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
thats an interesting question. i play bouzouki myself and some dadgad guitar.
i also agree that irish music does not 'need' backin as such. of course it doesn't, but that does not cut it out altogether. its always nice to have the choice between the two.
why is it that trad players feel the need for backing all the time?
to be honest im not sure, but i dont think that trad players feel the need all the time, i wud say however that some do. maybe it is a confidence thing and backing provides some sort of comfort blanket as you say, particularly in a concert situation where the melody player wud be more nervous than wud be playing in a session. also if the backer is that good, the melody player wud just like playing with them, feeding off of each other to enhance the performance (in a concert situation). alos in a session its enjoyable aswell if the backing is good.
what is the role of the guitar in traditional music?
this is the vague part.depending on a persons versatility and expertise on the instrument it can be either melody or rythmical backing. in terms of melody picking, randal bays in the US is the best in the world at that. its all subjective really, it neither needs it nor does it not need it. it should be there, there have been many classic recordings featuring guitar backing. if the others you play with are not happy with you picking, then maybe go home work on it a bit more and then when you have improved go back and try again. although i haven't heard you play so you may be pretty good already!lol.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
"You must be good if your mates insist on you doing it!"
By this logic and reasoning, I guess I must be a better piano player than I think I am because the other musicians at the local sessions seem to want me to participate in the sessions on a regular basis.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
To slightly paraphrase Oscar Wilde; There's only one thing worse than being accompanied by a room full of guitarists when playing a tune, and that is to not be accompanied by any of them.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Guitar is my primary weapon, but it still sounds like a bit of a novelty to me in ITM. I’d rather hear some Alec Finn-ish bouzouki for accompaniment (which, oddly enough, does *not* sound like a novelty to me). I play lots of Irish tunes on guitar – plectrum and fingerstyle – but I’ve never felt that it was really on the same plane as fiddle, flute, etc. Of course, that won’t stop me from playing it. I took up the fiddle 30+ years ago because I wanted the Real Deal.
Today, guitar backing in ITM is widely accepted and often brilliantly done, but sometimes I get a bit tired of the relentless “orchestration” aspect of it. It can distract too much from the purity of the tune and of great fiddling or fluting or piping. And, while I’m complaining, am I the only one who thinks adding bass-fiddle or -guitar is one toke over the line? I mean, it becomes a wall of sound that would make Phil Spector proud.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I dunno if I'd say comfort blanket; I've sat through a few sessions with rock star guitar players who threw a wet blanket over the melody with their reckless strumming. However, when you get to sit in with a guitar player who knows the music - it can be an absolute pleasure. A good guitar player creates all sorts of shapes and textures for the tunes to dance over. I'm lucky that our town has some quality guitar players who regularly attend sessions. It's a blast to play with folks like that.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Hi Coelman, you say you enjoy listening to music without backing as you can fill in the harmony in your own head without someone else's prescribed chords.
Isn't playing and listening to music all about getting the music out of someone's head and into the air? Yes a poor guitarist can be a drag but so can a poor melody player. It might be a revelation to hear someone else's interpretation rather than what's in your own head. That's a session isn't it?
On the other hand, in a noisy pub, a guitar can keep duelling rhythms in line.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I'm of the opinion that a good accompaniment can be as important rhythmically as harmonically;
that less is more;
that the standard tuning of a guitar does not always make the best accompaniment;
that one harmonic accompanist per session is sufficient.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
PS it's snowing here in London ( UK ); we have a blanket of snow. What was this about Global Warming ? Or has someone just turned off the Gulf Stream, as was predicted ? It never normally snows before January much - you only get snow in London at Christmas, even, in Hollywood movies.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
not really because i said it is subjective then i said straight after that the music neither needs nor does it not need it. that is what i was referring to when i said that.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Playing guitar in a session is not just about strumming a few orchestrated chords, or just playing along with the melody. When played with a certain sensitivity It's about lifting the music, adding to its texture, and contributing to the overall groove. It's also a good tool for adding a few bass lines here and there, which are often lacking (apart from when there's a good box player in the room). Like it or not, the guitar has become an integral part of ITM. Get used to it, because it's not going to go away. If you think that the fiddle/pipes/whistle are the only real deal in this music, then perhaps you should start some exclusive sessions. Sure the music sounds great when it's nicely played with no accompaniment. but it also sounds fantastic when lifted up by a great guitar player, as long as there's no competition involved.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Wow Joel, dealt with some guitar prejudice in your time, have ya?
You said it, 'a great guitar player'. This is why I called it a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands, and there are plenty of wrong hands who think that they're right when they're not.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
“Playing guitar in a session is not just about strumming a few orchestrated chords, …”
I don’t know if Joel was responding to my comment, but I don’t disagree with any of it. But by “orchestration,” I don’t mean just the choice of chords. All those things that the guitar player does amount to orchestration. I’m a great admirer of several of those players, but sometimes it feels like an overdose and then I need a big dose of nekid fiddle.
As a guitar player, I thought I could get away with suggesting that the guitar is a junior member of the melody club. Oh, well.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Side story: Early at our last session, there were only 4 players, as everyone hadn't arrived yet. My husband was playing guitar, and got up to get a drink at the bar. The two fiddlers and the flute player refused to start playing until he came back. Shocked us both. They said they couldn't keep time without him.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
At the local sessions SWFL Fiddler, there are no signs referring to shooting or not shooting the piano player.....yet.
Speaking as an experienced backup musician/accompanist, I don't participate in sessions to show how clever or how skilled or how experienced I am.
Instead, I am there to try to enhance the tunes which the melody players are playing with subtle, understated, and steady accompaniment.
It is the melody players who are supposed to be in the forefront and getting the biggest share of the attention.
I think this is the proper attitude for a backup musician/accompanist no matter what instrument you are playing.
Yes, Guernsey Pete, our scientists here in the United States have temporarily turned off the Gulf Stream as part of a scientific experiment just to mess with your mind because we don't think you get enough snow in the winter.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
SWFL Fiddler: I've never encountered any guitar prejudice (apart from on this site maybe). Any instrument can be a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands. I've heard bad fiddlers competing for attention with each other and it's not pretty.
Bob Himself: you are totally right.
Fauxcelt: ah the piano works beautifully in ITM. I'd love to come to your session. Please ask the scientists to turn on the gulf Stream again. It's not funny any more and I'm cold. Accompaniment can have another role if it's used sparingly: when I feel very comfortable with a tune I also try to interpret and improvise around the melody. Someone mentioned on another discussion that this is more difficult than playing the melody itself, but I don't think that's true. Improvisation can work very nicely if it is subtle, tasteful and firmly in the background.
The guitarist's most important role is to listen to everyone else. A good listener will lift and add colour to the music. A bad listener will bang out the 'prescribed' chords and annoy everyone else.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Backing tunes at a session is a sort of quantum musical effect - the very act of doing it transforms the music into something else.
I do say this respectfully to all the excellent guitarists out there, but, really, if you want to back tunes, no matter how subtly, unobtrusively, etc. (i.e., moving towards a vanishing point where you disappear - why is the intelligent advice always couched in these terms? - hmmm), then join/form a band, and arrange the tunes into performance pieces. That's fine, wonderful, etc., and you might get gigs. But please, leave us melody players alone.
I have never, not once, in over 40 years of playing in sessions, seen or heard an experienced melody player deliberately ask a guitarist to back them. Ever. There is a reason for that.
If you don't understand why backing changes the music into something else then may I suggest you don't understand the question in the first place.
Ask yourself, what's the difference between James Galway + orchestra and Seamus Tansey, solo, playing the same reel?
But maybe I'm horribly out of date, passe, a relic, unable to comprehend the evolutionary process...
Only last week I was accused, vicariously, of being rude to a guitarist (of undoubted high calibre) when he came to the blythe and asked politely if it was ok to play. I replied, equally politely, ok but please would you mind playing quietly. He then did. It still diminished the evening for me. Sorry, "X", but that's the truth.
We learn the tunes for a whole lifetime; they evolve naturally in the playing and have their own beauty, rhythms and power, which I believe is uncategorizable in a musical sense; can't we just leave them to articulate this in their own, uniquely eloquent way without having to force them into the meat grinder of chordal muzakness?
I expect some people will now be rude, hostile, etc. Fine, but I've only tried to put a point of view.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
"Backing tunes at a session is a sort of quantum musical effect - the very act of doing it transforms the music into something else."
Ah, the "Observer Effect". Yes, and of course the same is true of *any* two or more musicians playing together, otherwise there would be very little point in playing together in the first instance!
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Joel McDermott, if the scientists would listen to me, I would ask them to turn the Gulf Stream on again but they won't listen to a mere musician like me.
We are having some cold weather here but no snow yet. The earliest I have known it to snow here is in the last week of November.
If you ever do come to Arkansas, you are welcome to sit in at one of the local sessions.
maxF, when I accompany the other musicians at the local sessions, I go out of my way to try to avoid forcing any tunes into any kind of meat grinder or any other chordal muzakness because I am well aware that doesn't work and it would only hurt the music instead of enhancing it.
Some of the melody players at the local sessions have trouble maintaining a steady beat and rhythm when they are playing.
There is a delicate balance between accompanying properly and destroying a tune from being too heavy-handed (and I mean that literally). Some musicians learn how to do this more quickly than others.
Also, if someone is unable or unwilling or doesn't have the time, energy, effort, and/or money for lessons so they can learn how to play one of the so-called "traditional" melody instruments, would you be willing to deny them the pleasure of playing and enjoying this music with other musicians who like it as much as they do?
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Great Scott man! Mr. fauxcelt describes all every melody player is asking for from any accompanying instrument, dead goats included.
Also Joel, you’re right, any instrument is dangerous in the wrong hands. From experience, I see a lot more wrong hands figuring they can whale away on three chords or a piece of goat skin than four strings and a bow. Something about the learning curve discouraging folks, or encouraging them to try things without following some of Mr. fauxcelt’s excellent ideas.
Any more outbursts like that from him and we’re going to lock him in a room with iris nevins until they finish the Accompanists’ Bible. Hallelujah. I’m converted.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
"Ah, the "Observer Effect". Yes, and of course the same is true of *any* two or more musicians playing together, otherwise there would be very little point in playing together in the first instance!" - Yes, of course, Rick, but if it's 2 or more melody players, then you still have the tune, but if there's a guitar involved then the tune, in my opinion, loses its edge and wildness and the melody players are distracted, and, if you like, led astray, and have to make some sort of compromise.
No, Laurence, it's not a question of denying anyone anything - are you suggesting that people take up the guitar to back tunes because it's "easy" (which, of course, it isn't) and/or they haven't got the time, etc to learn melody instruments? Isn't that a bit insulting to good guitarists? I'm sure that's not what you meant!
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I love listening to the unaccompanied stuff -- Kitty Lie Over, etc. It can be brilliant. However, a really good guitarist can help stabilize my somewhat wavering rhythm and yes, provides a comfort blanket when I end up doing the accidental solo at a session. You feel a little less lonely and exposed when someone is strumming (competently) along with you.
Of course, if the guitarist stops playing, then it's time to panic. Oh, f*ck, I am screwing this up so badly that I can't even be accompanied! Aaaaagh!!!!!!
The music doesn't *need* accompaniment but accompaniment can add something to it. What I don't understand is this sort of either or attitude some people get about it. Either you are into the unaccompanied "pure drop" music or you are into bands and unaccompanied. I like listening to solo instrumentalists (so long as it's not me) as much as the next guy, but I also like listening to Session A9. Why can't you appreciate both for what they are and the different things they express, instead inflicting value judgments on it and saying one is better or more authentic than the other.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I just got home from our weekly session where everyone was laughing with, and at, each other (apart from Gallileo, who was sitting in the corner looking a bit grumpy). I was strumming guitar (mostly in the key of T) and occasionally took a bow to it. The fiddle players were fingerpicking some harp tunes, and the whistle players played with tippers. The goat-botherers struggled with the plectrum at first, but soon got used to it, and gave us a lovely rendition of Danny Boy. The ocarina section was a bit out of sorts until someone produced a pair of Polish peckle pipes, at which point the trombonist got up and left (he objected to their use of the capo). Then we sang Oh Lordy Pick a Bale of Cotton. We all had an excellent fight in the beer garden, followed by a communal wrap in the soothing guitar blanket of righteousness. Thanks for another great night everyone.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Joel,
I cannot begin to comprehend how you dare to make such a comment, after having witnessed your supposed "mastery" of the triangle at this evening's session; to say it was the musical equivalent of hearing a dozen cats on heat being methodically (but slowly) strained through a mangle would not even begin to do it justice, as you were evidently incapable of delivering that degree of finesse...
Great session tho', helped not inconsiderably by some extremely tasty guitar playing
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
MaxF - yes but that is *you* - that is what *you* think about backers. Please do not lump me or any other melody player who actually has a clue in with yourself ie - "But please, leave us melody players alone." Please, I am begging. If in 40 years of playing you have never heard a melody player asking for a backer then I get the feeling you havent been out much...or anywhere away from london much. Big wide world out there - huge- massive.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Joel - For some reason your line way back there still has me in stitches: "Please ask the scientists to turn on the gulf Stream again. It's not funny any more and I'm cold. "
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Max & bb: maybe you should start a band together. It could be a fusion of ITM and Cuban music to warm us all up. Call it The Ballydesmond Social Club. Max on guitar and bb on nose flute. I'll bring the sheet music and sit in on triangle. I'll also mix the drinks. Guinness and rum, with a dash of coke – cooley libre.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Fab idea, Joel - but to make it super authentic, please can we have Val Doonican on (bad) vibes and Des O'Connor on pithy epithet? And can I play euphonium please?
For the backing, you know.
Actually, the carpet in my front room has fantastic backing - I think I'll take it along to the blythe tonight - naturally the lads will beg and plead for it to accompany them. Hessian brilliant.
I still love that session with raw melody.
With all the rhythm, lift, drive, accent . . . right there coming from the melody players.
Guitarists ~ use 'em if you got them. But do they know the melody?
& since when is it good advice to say, "yes, but please play very quietly"?
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Hi Random_notes there's a few vacancies at the Ballydesmond Social Club (our new ITM/Cuban supergroup) now Max has moved to the euphonium. You can play the guitar, Cuban Tres, bongos or maracas. Choice is yours. Ry Cooder wants to make a film about us. In Watford.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Ry is very good on any instrument. This thread is coming unraveled.
My bad up there. I thought it was ceolachan's thread. Wondered why he was playing so much guitar.
Good luck with your fantasies all of you.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Ahem... back to the thread: what is the role of the guitar in traditional Irish music? Should it be there at all?
The guitar is quite new to ITM, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. In the last fifty years it has become a popular feature of the 'modern' session, alongside other newcomers such as the tenor banjo, mandolin, box, modern pipes etc. Perhaps a real return to 'traditional' music would mean a session full of fiddlers and whistlers?
'I still love that session with raw melody.
With all the rhythm, lift, drive, accent . . . right there coming from the melody players.'
So do I, but there's nothing wrong with adding a little extra texture. The rhythm, lift, drive and accent of ITM are very attractive to guitarists, because we use all these things too. I use a non-standard tuning (CGCGCD), which lends itself to modal tunes and I don't play jazzy chords or tinker with the rhythms (much). My aim is to do what Fauxcelt has so eloquently described above. When you have a room full of musicians all playing the same melody, why not add to the fun with a few bass runs or some chords on the off-beat?
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Well, no matter what anybody thinks is the proper role, there’s no denying that the guitar has transformed the music. There are legions of people for whom guitar-orchestrated diddley is the very definition of the music. I think it’s been, by and large, a brilliant innovation and, at the same time, I need my pure drop. Well, not actually at the same time. That wouldn’t work, would it?
As for playing melody on the guitar, as I’ve said before, it feels more like bringing diddley into the guitar world than bringing the guitar into diddley. Some wise person remarked here not long ago that fingerstyle “Celtic guitar” sounds right at home in the harp tradition. Maybe more so than in the session tradition? But I’m not talking about ”proper” roles, just observing how things seem to fall into place (in my possibly warpped pre-senile mind). And I have quite happily played fingerstyle tunes in sessions.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
SWFL Fiddler, my wife won't allow you or anyone else to lock me up in a room with another woman--not even irisnevins.
We would have to work on this proposed Accompanist's Bible in an unlocked and open room.
Would you be willing to include other types of goats besides dead goats in your list of accompanying instruments?
Perhaps these other types of goats would be perfect for this proposed band called the Ballydesmond Social Club.
Silver Spear, I like your comments about accompanying and I agree completely with what you said.
Random_notes, if you really want to unRavel this thread, maybe you should try playing music by a certain French composer.
Bob himself, I don't know what type of brownies these people are chewing but I do know that I want one--especially if the brownies don't have nuts in them.
maxF, I am not suggesting that someone deliberately try to learn how to play guitar so they can accompany Irish or any other type of music. Many, many years ago, I did try to learn how to play the guitar and gave it up because it felt so Wrong to me.
Then, purely by accident, I picked up a bass guitar at a party and just started playing it. Playing bass guitar felt so right and so natural that I bought one of my own as soon as possible and learned how to play it properly.
I like to listen to Irish and Scottish music both accompanied and unaccompanied. It sounds equally good to me either way.
If someone doesn't want accompaniment or backing at the local session, all they have to do is state that they want to play solo and politely ask the rest of us to respect their wishes. Yes, we will sit there quietly and listen although we prefer to all try to play along with any and all tunes that someone plays at our local sessions.
I thought that you were trying to say that if someone is unable and/or unwilling or cannot invest the time, effort, energy, and money into learning to play one of the more traditional melody instruments such as fiddle or flute and they can only participate in sessions as a backup musician/accompanist, then they probably shouldn't try asking to participate in your local session as well as not even bothering to learn how to play this music at all because you never want to have to play with backup and/or accompaniment of any type whatsoever.
If I misunderstood you, I would like to know. I don't have a problem with people who prefer to play unaccompanied. It just means that I won't go to their session because I enjoy playing music too much for my own good. If I can't participate by playing music and must only listen, that can be boring for me.
I have been playing music for most of my life and I can't imagine what my life might have been like without music.
I hope this reply makes sense to you because all of your comments have made sense to me--even the silly ones.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Sigh - I dont know why I or anyone else bothers. this site is famous for people thinking *their* way is the only way. Never mind that some people may like different stuff...its wrong! Wrong I tells ya! Wrong, wrong, wrong and....stupid...and wrong!
bb - my real name.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Guitars are fine at session. Just a matter of how it all sounds together.
Having said that there is one good reason to be wary though.
2 weeks ago I was sitting around a campfire jam session. I did not play that evening (& nothing Irish was played) There were some good musicians.
The instruments?
~ 1 mandolin
~ 1 bass fiddle
~ 1 tambourine
.
.
.
~ 6 guitars
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Joel, you will have to ask the scientific experts about the Gulf Stream.
I agree with you that six guitars is too many. I play my acoustic bass regularly with a guitar and mandolin group. We have two guitars and two mandolins right now. We used to have four guitars and three mandolins but two of the guitarists quit due to family obligations (one of the guitarists is a music teacher who has five children).
One of the guitarists who is still playing music with this group is a guitar teacher. We tried performing with ten of her guitar students once. It was such an "interesting" experience that we haven't done it again. The cacophony of twelve guitars, two mandolins, and one bass fiddle is difficult to describe.
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
As someone whose entry point into ITM was guitar backup, I have had a wide range of experiences. My feeling is that accompaniment, whether it is guitar or something else, can be a great asset or a disaster - it really depends on the situation. Like every thing on this site, the opinions varies. You have the parochial people who have fixed and intransigent positions and you have others who might be willing to see other points of view. In any case, common sense usually applies. Assuming you have some, and assuming you have some ability to play, common sense will generally not fail you. You have to read the situation and see if you what you are doing fits, and, is welcome. Some guitar players DO skip that step and plough away, and that the results can be unfortunate, and it feeds the fire of giving guitar players a bad name. But to say that it is never good is just silly. When done right, it really does fill out the sound and most melody players I know welcome it.
I would advise would be accompanist to show up prepared and weave their way in until they strike the right balance. You will know it when you are there. And you will sure know it when you are not!
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Excellent timing and playing interesting chords can enhance any melody player. It is rare to find a good guitarist. It is good to find a rare guitarist. Often, this leaves me to play with my metronome.
Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I have been playing Irish Traditional music since I was a young child. Needless to say I live and breathe it still. I play a variety of instruments, but the one I am most asked to play is the Guitar.
As I have got older, I am increasingly of the opinion that the music needs no accompaniment!
I enjoy listening to the music without "backing" as I can fill in the harmony in my own head, without listening to someone else's "perscribed" chords.
As a result, I began just picking tunes on the guitar (not backing them) along with the rest of the melody players.
To my surprise, very few people in the group were happy to play without my accompaniment and i went back to filling in the harmony.
Why is it that trad players feel the need for "backing" all the time?
What is the role of the Guitar in Traditional Irish music?
Should it be there at all? If so, what part should it play?
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by ceolman
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
1. lack of confidence or technique or both (like me)
2. on its own, melodic, in a band, accompaniment a la Mc Glynn
3 secondary and in context
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Get ready for about a hundred different replies
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by upmine3
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Some people want guitar to cover their sloppy playing.
Some like the harmonic color it provides.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
thats an interesting question. i play bouzouki myself and some dadgad guitar.
i also agree that irish music does not 'need' backin as such. of course it doesn't, but that does not cut it out altogether. its always nice to have the choice between the two.
why is it that trad players feel the need for backing all the time?
to be honest im not sure, but i dont think that trad players feel the need all the time, i wud say however that some do. maybe it is a confidence thing and backing provides some sort of comfort blanket as you say, particularly in a concert situation where the melody player wud be more nervous than wud be playing in a session. also if the backer is that good, the melody player wud just like playing with them, feeding off of each other to enhance the performance (in a concert situation). alos in a session its enjoyable aswell if the backing is good.
what is the role of the guitar in traditional music?
this is the vague part.depending on a persons versatility and expertise on the instrument it can be either melody or rythmical backing. in terms of melody picking, randal bays in the US is the best in the world at that. its all subjective really, it neither needs it nor does it not need it. it should be there, there have been many classic recordings featuring guitar backing. if the others you play with are not happy with you picking, then maybe go home work on it a bit more and then when you have improved go back and try again. although i haven't heard you play so you may be pretty good already!lol.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Get a tenor guitar. Ha.
If you like melody without guitar, start playing a melody instrument, and come back to guitar refreshed. Worked for me.
'...randal bays in the US is the best in the world at that... its all subjective really..'
Isn't that a contradiction?
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
PS I think 'Ceolman' has been here before..
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I like it when it's good. It's not needed at all, but when it's good, it's great.
You must be good if your mates insist on you doing it!
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Whatcha saying Hugo? Got us a former troll in disguise?
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
"You must be good if your mates insist on you doing it!"
By this logic and reasoning, I guess I must be a better piano player than I think I am because the other musicians at the local sessions seem to want me to participate in the sessions on a regular basis.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
This week I have been listening to "John Williams plays Bach" on a Walkman.
Now it does not need any "backing" but there are violins and other orchestral instruments playing.
Fills it out, gives it a bit polish.
Maybe not needed on a CD but essential at a noisy session in a pub.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Ceolman is a new member actually! Might have been a troll in another life???!
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by ceolman
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Then excuse us ceolman, we're a little troll-shy 'round these parts. Had a rough patch a little while back, all manner of nonsense.
fauxcelt, you've GOT to be doing something right then.
If you come back one day and the "Don't" has been scratched off the "Don't Shoot the Piano Player" sign, then worry.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Some people just like it. I am one of those people. Amazing huh?
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by bb
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
To slightly paraphrase Oscar Wilde; There's only one thing worse than being accompanied by a room full of guitarists when playing a tune, and that is to not be accompanied by any of them.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Rick Payman
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Guitar is my primary weapon, but it still sounds like a bit of a novelty to me in ITM. I’d rather hear some Alec Finn-ish bouzouki for accompaniment (which, oddly enough, does *not* sound like a novelty to me). I play lots of Irish tunes on guitar – plectrum and fingerstyle – but I’ve never felt that it was really on the same plane as fiddle, flute, etc. Of course, that won’t stop me from playing it. I took up the fiddle 30+ years ago because I wanted the Real Deal.
Today, guitar backing in ITM is widely accepted and often brilliantly done, but sometimes I get a bit tired of the relentless “orchestration” aspect of it. It can distract too much from the purity of the tune and of great fiddling or fluting or piping. And, while I’m complaining, am I the only one who thinks adding bass-fiddle or -guitar is one toke over the line? I mean, it becomes a wall of sound that would make Phil Spector proud.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I dunno if I'd say comfort blanket; I've sat through a few sessions with rock star guitar players who threw a wet blanket over the melody with their reckless strumming. However, when you get to sit in with a guitar player who knows the music - it can be an absolute pleasure. A good guitar player creates all sorts of shapes and textures for the tunes to dance over. I'm lucky that our town has some quality guitar players who regularly attend sessions. It's a blast to play with folks like that.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Hi Coelman, you say you enjoy listening to music without backing as you can fill in the harmony in your own head without someone else's prescribed chords.
Isn't playing and listening to music all about getting the music out of someone's head and into the air? Yes a poor guitarist can be a drag but so can a poor melody player. It might be a revelation to hear someone else's interpretation rather than what's in your own head. That's a session isn't it?
On the other hand, in a noisy pub, a guitar can keep duelling rhythms in line.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by pheen
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
A wet blanket he says! DAHA!
Seriously, a guitar is a dangerous weapon. If it's orchestrated, it will dictate a feel, that orchestration Bob himself speaks of.
When a player is subtle, like Jusa Nutter's saying, that's when it's real good.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I'm of the opinion that a good accompaniment can be as important rhythmically as harmonically;
that less is more;
that the standard tuning of a guitar does not always make the best accompaniment;
that one harmonic accompanist per session is sufficient.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
PS it's snowing here in London ( UK ); we have a blanket of snow. What was this about Global Warming ? Or has someone just turned off the Gulf Stream, as was predicted ? It never normally snows before January much - you only get snow in London at Christmas, even, in Hollywood movies.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
not really because i said it is subjective then i said straight after that the music neither needs nor does it not need it. that is what i was referring to when i said that.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Playing guitar in a session is not just about strumming a few orchestrated chords, or just playing along with the melody. When played with a certain sensitivity It's about lifting the music, adding to its texture, and contributing to the overall groove. It's also a good tool for adding a few bass lines here and there, which are often lacking (apart from when there's a good box player in the room). Like it or not, the guitar has become an integral part of ITM. Get used to it, because it's not going to go away. If you think that the fiddle/pipes/whistle are the only real deal in this music, then perhaps you should start some exclusive sessions. Sure the music sounds great when it's nicely played with no accompaniment. but it also sounds fantastic when lifted up by a great guitar player, as long as there's no competition involved.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Wow Joel, dealt with some guitar prejudice in your time, have ya?
You said it, 'a great guitar player'. This is why I called it a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands, and there are plenty of wrong hands who think that they're right when they're not.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
“Playing guitar in a session is not just about strumming a few orchestrated chords, …”
I don’t know if Joel was responding to my comment, but I don’t disagree with any of it. But by “orchestration,” I don’t mean just the choice of chords. All those things that the guitar player does amount to orchestration. I’m a great admirer of several of those players, but sometimes it feels like an overdose and then I need a big dose of nekid fiddle.
As a guitar player, I thought I could get away with suggesting that the guitar is a junior member of the melody club. Oh, well.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Side story: Early at our last session, there were only 4 players, as everyone hadn't arrived yet. My husband was playing guitar, and got up to get a drink at the bar. The two fiddlers and the flute player refused to start playing until he came back. Shocked us both. They said they couldn't keep time without him.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Merry Mary
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
At the local sessions SWFL Fiddler, there are no signs referring to shooting or not shooting the piano player.....yet.
Speaking as an experienced backup musician/accompanist, I don't participate in sessions to show how clever or how skilled or how experienced I am.
Instead, I am there to try to enhance the tunes which the melody players are playing with subtle, understated, and steady accompaniment.
It is the melody players who are supposed to be in the forefront and getting the biggest share of the attention.
I think this is the proper attitude for a backup musician/accompanist no matter what instrument you are playing.
Yes, Guernsey Pete, our scientists here in the United States have temporarily turned off the Gulf Stream as part of a scientific experiment just to mess with your mind because we don't think you get enough snow in the winter.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by fauxcelt
Accompaniment ?
Melody ~ that is what a tune is. Beautiful!
That is my comfort.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
SWFL Fiddler: I've never encountered any guitar prejudice (apart from on this site maybe). Any instrument can be a dangerous weapon in the wrong hands. I've heard bad fiddlers competing for attention with each other and it's not pretty.
Bob Himself: you are totally right.
Fauxcelt: ah the piano works beautifully in ITM. I'd love to come to your session. Please ask the scientists to turn on the gulf Stream again. It's not funny any more and I'm cold. Accompaniment can have another role if it's used sparingly: when I feel very comfortable with a tune I also try to interpret and improvise around the melody. Someone mentioned on another discussion that this is more difficult than playing the melody itself, but I don't think that's true. Improvisation can work very nicely if it is subtle, tasteful and firmly in the background.
The guitarist's most important role is to listen to everyone else. A good listener will lift and add colour to the music. A bad listener will bang out the 'prescribed' chords and annoy everyone else.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Backing tunes at a session is a sort of quantum musical effect - the very act of doing it transforms the music into something else.
I do say this respectfully to all the excellent guitarists out there, but, really, if you want to back tunes, no matter how subtly, unobtrusively, etc. (i.e., moving towards a vanishing point where you disappear - why is the intelligent advice always couched in these terms? - hmmm), then join/form a band, and arrange the tunes into performance pieces. That's fine, wonderful, etc., and you might get gigs. But please, leave us melody players alone.
I have never, not once, in over 40 years of playing in sessions, seen or heard an experienced melody player deliberately ask a guitarist to back them. Ever. There is a reason for that.
If you don't understand why backing changes the music into something else then may I suggest you don't understand the question in the first place.
Ask yourself, what's the difference between James Galway + orchestra and Seamus Tansey, solo, playing the same reel?
But maybe I'm horribly out of date, passe, a relic, unable to comprehend the evolutionary process...
Only last week I was accused, vicariously, of being rude to a guitarist (of undoubted high calibre) when he came to the blythe and asked politely if it was ok to play. I replied, equally politely, ok but please would you mind playing quietly. He then did. It still diminished the evening for me. Sorry, "X", but that's the truth.
We learn the tunes for a whole lifetime; they evolve naturally in the playing and have their own beauty, rhythms and power, which I believe is uncategorizable in a musical sense; can't we just leave them to articulate this in their own, uniquely eloquent way without having to force them into the meat grinder of chordal muzakness?
I expect some people will now be rude, hostile, etc. Fine, but I've only tried to put a point of view.
They laughed at Marconi, you know.
Max
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by pfft
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
"Backing tunes at a session is a sort of quantum musical effect - the very act of doing it transforms the music into something else."
Ah, the "Observer Effect". Yes, and of course the same is true of *any* two or more musicians playing together, otherwise there would be very little point in playing together in the first instance!
Maybe Marconi was a very funny fellow
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Rick Payman
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
“They laughed at Marconi, you know.”
Yeah, but that was because of his name.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
maxF is right
Irish tunes can be domesticated and detoxed, but it sure aint ITM
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Joel McDermott, if the scientists would listen to me, I would ask them to turn the Gulf Stream on again but they won't listen to a mere musician like me.
We are having some cold weather here but no snow yet. The earliest I have known it to snow here is in the last week of November.
If you ever do come to Arkansas, you are welcome to sit in at one of the local sessions.
maxF, when I accompany the other musicians at the local sessions, I go out of my way to try to avoid forcing any tunes into any kind of meat grinder or any other chordal muzakness because I am well aware that doesn't work and it would only hurt the music instead of enhancing it.
Some of the melody players at the local sessions have trouble maintaining a steady beat and rhythm when they are playing.
There is a delicate balance between accompanying properly and destroying a tune from being too heavy-handed (and I mean that literally). Some musicians learn how to do this more quickly than others.
Also, if someone is unable or unwilling or doesn't have the time, energy, effort, and/or money for lessons so they can learn how to play one of the so-called "traditional" melody instruments, would you be willing to deny them the pleasure of playing and enjoying this music with other musicians who like it as much as they do?
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Great Scott man! Mr. fauxcelt describes all every melody player is asking for from any accompanying instrument, dead goats included.
Also Joel, you’re right, any instrument is dangerous in the wrong hands. From experience, I see a lot more wrong hands figuring they can whale away on three chords or a piece of goat skin than four strings and a bow. Something about the learning curve discouraging folks, or encouraging them to try things without following some of Mr. fauxcelt’s excellent ideas.
Any more outbursts like that from him and we’re going to lock him in a room with iris nevins until they finish the Accompanists’ Bible. Hallelujah. I’m converted.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
"Ah, the "Observer Effect". Yes, and of course the same is true of *any* two or more musicians playing together, otherwise there would be very little point in playing together in the first instance!" - Yes, of course, Rick, but if it's 2 or more melody players, then you still have the tune, but if there's a guitar involved then the tune, in my opinion, loses its edge and wildness and the melody players are distracted, and, if you like, led astray, and have to make some sort of compromise.
No, Laurence, it's not a question of denying anyone anything - are you suggesting that people take up the guitar to back tunes because it's "easy" (which, of course, it isn't) and/or they haven't got the time, etc to learn melody instruments? Isn't that a bit insulting to good guitarists? I'm sure that's not what you meant!
And they laughed at Copernicus too, actually
Max
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by pfft
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I love listening to the unaccompanied stuff -- Kitty Lie Over, etc. It can be brilliant. However, a really good guitarist can help stabilize my somewhat wavering rhythm and yes, provides a comfort blanket when I end up doing the accidental solo at a session. You feel a little less lonely and exposed when someone is strumming (competently) along with you.
Of course, if the guitarist stops playing, then it's time to panic. Oh, f*ck, I am screwing this up so badly that I can't even be accompanied! Aaaaagh!!!!!!
The music doesn't *need* accompaniment but accompaniment can add something to it. What I don't understand is this sort of either or attitude some people get about it. Either you are into the unaccompanied "pure drop" music or you are into bands and unaccompanied. I like listening to solo instrumentalists (so long as it's not me) as much as the next guy, but I also like listening to Session A9. Why can't you appreciate both for what they are and the different things they express, instead inflicting value judgments on it and saying one is better or more authentic than the other.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I usually think Oh f*ck the guitarist has screwed this up so badly I can't play along with him
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I just got home from our weekly session where everyone was laughing with, and at, each other (apart from Gallileo, who was sitting in the corner looking a bit grumpy). I was strumming guitar (mostly in the key of T) and occasionally took a bow to it. The fiddle players were fingerpicking some harp tunes, and the whistle players played with tippers. The goat-botherers struggled with the plectrum at first, but soon got used to it, and gave us a lovely rendition of Danny Boy. The ocarina section was a bit out of sorts until someone produced a pair of Polish peckle pipes, at which point the trombonist got up and left (he objected to their use of the capo). Then we sang Oh Lordy Pick a Bale of Cotton. We all had an excellent fight in the beer garden, followed by a communal wrap in the soothing guitar blanket of righteousness. Thanks for another great night everyone.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Joel,
I cannot begin to comprehend how you dare to make such a comment, after having witnessed your supposed "mastery" of the triangle at this evening's session; to say it was the musical equivalent of hearing a dozen cats on heat being methodically (but slowly) strained through a mangle would not even begin to do it justice, as you were evidently incapable of delivering that degree of finesse...
Great session tho', helped not inconsiderably by some extremely tasty guitar playing
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Rick Payman
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Ssshh... the auld triangle remains a secret for now. Possibly the subject for another discussion?
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
MaxF - yes but that is *you* - that is what *you* think about backers. Please do not lump me or any other melody player who actually has a clue in with yourself ie - "But please, leave us melody players alone." Please, I am begging. If in 40 years of playing you have never heard a melody player asking for a backer then I get the feeling you havent been out much...or anywhere away from london much. Big wide world out there - huge- massive.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by bb
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Joel - For some reason your line way back there still has me in stitches: "Please ask the scientists to turn on the gulf Stream again. It's not funny any more and I'm cold. "
::giggle fit::
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by fuzzygreen
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Sorry, that's Bush's strategy on global warming--the U.S. has an embargo on Cuban air leaving the western hemisphere....
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Nope, never been anywhere much, just down the end of our street really...
Hoopy-doop.
Max (my real name)
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by pfft
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Max & bb: maybe you should start a band together. It could be a fusion of ITM and Cuban music to warm us all up. Call it The Ballydesmond Social Club. Max on guitar and bb on nose flute. I'll bring the sheet music and sit in on triangle. I'll also mix the drinks. Guinness and rum, with a dash of coke – cooley libre.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I enjoy playing with a good backer. I enjoy playing without a backer. I can't play with a bad backer, [ someone who doesn't know the tunes ]
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I backed a horse once at twenty to one. It came in at quarter past three.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
If an accompanist had a large posterior, would the backer then have much back?
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Fab idea, Joel - but to make it super authentic, please can we have Val Doonican on (bad) vibes and Des O'Connor on pithy epithet? And can I play euphonium please?
For the backing, you know.
Actually, the carpet in my front room has fantastic backing - I think I'll take it along to the blythe tonight - naturally the lads will beg and plead for it to accompany them. Hessian brilliant.
Can't wait!!!!!!!!!!!
Max (still my real name)
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by pfft
Hello ceolachan
I still love that session with raw melody.
With all the rhythm, lift, drive, accent . . . right there coming from the melody players.
Guitarists ~ use 'em if you got them. But do they know the melody?
& since when is it good advice to say, "yes, but please play very quietly"?
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
To get back to backing... can a backer back when he's got a bad back, or would it make him a bad backer?
Max you should take the underlay as well and get in a few flamenco tunes.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by McDermott
Euphonium accompaniment - melody
If you are any good on euphonium you can play melody. With all the ornamentation.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Hi Random_notes there's a few vacancies at the Ballydesmond Social Club (our new ITM/Cuban supergroup) now Max has moved to the euphonium. You can play the guitar, Cuban Tres, bongos or maracas. Choice is yours. Ry Cooder wants to make a film about us. In Watford.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Ry is very good on any instrument. This thread is coming unraveled.
My bad up there. I thought it was ceolachan's thread. Wondered why he was playing so much guitar.
Good luck with your fantasies all of you.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
What kinda brownies y'all chewing?
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Ahem... back to the thread: what is the role of the guitar in traditional Irish music? Should it be there at all?
The guitar is quite new to ITM, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. In the last fifty years it has become a popular feature of the 'modern' session, alongside other newcomers such as the tenor banjo, mandolin, box, modern pipes etc. Perhaps a real return to 'traditional' music would mean a session full of fiddlers and whistlers?
'I still love that session with raw melody.
With all the rhythm, lift, drive, accent . . . right there coming from the melody players.'
So do I, but there's nothing wrong with adding a little extra texture. The rhythm, lift, drive and accent of ITM are very attractive to guitarists, because we use all these things too. I use a non-standard tuning (CGCGCD), which lends itself to modal tunes and I don't play jazzy chords or tinker with the rhythms (much). My aim is to do what Fauxcelt has so eloquently described above. When you have a room full of musicians all playing the same melody, why not add to the fun with a few bass runs or some chords on the off-beat?
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Well, no matter what anybody thinks is the proper role, there’s no denying that the guitar has transformed the music. There are legions of people for whom guitar-orchestrated diddley is the very definition of the music. I think it’s been, by and large, a brilliant innovation and, at the same time, I need my pure drop. Well, not actually at the same time. That wouldn’t work, would it?
As for playing melody on the guitar, as I’ve said before, it feels more like bringing diddley into the guitar world than bringing the guitar into diddley. Some wise person remarked here not long ago that fingerstyle “Celtic guitar” sounds right at home in the harp tradition. Maybe more so than in the session tradition? But I’m not talking about ”proper” roles, just observing how things seem to fall into place (in my possibly warpped pre-senile mind). And I have quite happily played fingerstyle tunes in sessions.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
SWFL Fiddler, my wife won't allow you or anyone else to lock me up in a room with another woman--not even irisnevins.
We would have to work on this proposed Accompanist's Bible in an unlocked and open room.
Would you be willing to include other types of goats besides dead goats in your list of accompanying instruments?
Perhaps these other types of goats would be perfect for this proposed band called the Ballydesmond Social Club.
Silver Spear, I like your comments about accompanying and I agree completely with what you said.
Random_notes, if you really want to unRavel this thread, maybe you should try playing music by a certain French composer.
Bob himself, I don't know what type of brownies these people are chewing but I do know that I want one--especially if the brownies don't have nuts in them.
maxF, I am not suggesting that someone deliberately try to learn how to play guitar so they can accompany Irish or any other type of music. Many, many years ago, I did try to learn how to play the guitar and gave it up because it felt so Wrong to me.
Then, purely by accident, I picked up a bass guitar at a party and just started playing it. Playing bass guitar felt so right and so natural that I bought one of my own as soon as possible and learned how to play it properly.
I like to listen to Irish and Scottish music both accompanied and unaccompanied. It sounds equally good to me either way.
If someone doesn't want accompaniment or backing at the local session, all they have to do is state that they want to play solo and politely ask the rest of us to respect their wishes. Yes, we will sit there quietly and listen although we prefer to all try to play along with any and all tunes that someone plays at our local sessions.
I thought that you were trying to say that if someone is unable and/or unwilling or cannot invest the time, effort, energy, and money into learning to play one of the more traditional melody instruments such as fiddle or flute and they can only participate in sessions as a backup musician/accompanist, then they probably shouldn't try asking to participate in your local session as well as not even bothering to learn how to play this music at all because you never want to have to play with backup and/or accompaniment of any type whatsoever.
If I misunderstood you, I would like to know. I don't have a problem with people who prefer to play unaccompanied. It just means that I won't go to their session because I enjoy playing music too much for my own good. If I can't participate by playing music and must only listen, that can be boring for me.
I have been playing music for most of my life and I can't imagine what my life might have been like without music.
I hope this reply makes sense to you because all of your comments have made sense to me--even the silly ones.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Sigh - I dont know why I or anyone else bothers. this site is famous for people thinking *their* way is the only way. Never mind that some people may like different stuff...its wrong! Wrong I tells ya! Wrong, wrong, wrong and....stupid...and wrong!
bb - my real name.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by bb
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
But bb: you are RIGHT!!!! Funny kind of name though... Why not capital letters?
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by McDermott
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Guitars are fine at session. Just a matter of how it all sounds together.
Having said that there is one good reason to be wary though.
2 weeks ago I was sitting around a campfire jam session. I did not play that evening (& nothing Irish was played) There were some good musicians.
The instruments?
~ 1 mandolin
~ 1 bass fiddle
~ 1 tambourine
.
.
.
~ 6 guitars
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
6 guitars? Oi yoi yoi! I take it all back! Plenty of firewood though...
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by McDermott
Joel Mc ~
No instruments were harmed in the making of this session.
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
I suppose it's just as well, considering our attempts to cut carbon emissions. Can we have the Gulf Stream back now? Please?
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by McDermott
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Joel, you will have to ask the scientific experts about the Gulf Stream.
I agree with you that six guitars is too many. I play my acoustic bass regularly with a guitar and mandolin group. We have two guitars and two mandolins right now. We used to have four guitars and three mandolins but two of the guitarists quit due to family obligations (one of the guitarists is a music teacher who has five children).
One of the guitarists who is still playing music with this group is a guitar teacher. We tried performing with ten of her guitar students once. It was such an "interesting" experience that we haven't done it again. The cacophony of twelve guitars, two mandolins, and one bass fiddle is difficult to describe.
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
As someone whose entry point into ITM was guitar backup, I have had a wide range of experiences. My feeling is that accompaniment, whether it is guitar or something else, can be a great asset or a disaster - it really depends on the situation. Like every thing on this site, the opinions varies. You have the parochial people who have fixed and intransigent positions and you have others who might be willing to see other points of view. In any case, common sense usually applies. Assuming you have some, and assuming you have some ability to play, common sense will generally not fail you. You have to read the situation and see if you what you are doing fits, and, is welcome. Some guitar players DO skip that step and plough away, and that the results can be unfortunate, and it feeds the fire of giving guitar players a bad name. But to say that it is never good is just silly. When done right, it really does fill out the sound and most melody players I know welcome it.
I would advise would be accompanist to show up prepared and weave their way in until they strike the right balance. You will know it when you are there. And you will sure know it when you are not!
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by johnnevin
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Thank you johnnevin, I couldn't have said it better myself.
Your comment is similar to my own experiences as a backup musician/accompanist.
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Guitar accompaniment - A comfort blanket for the melody player?
Excellent timing and playing interesting chords can enhance any melody player. It is rare to find a good guitarist. It is good to find a rare guitarist. Often, this leaves me to play with my metronome.
# Posted on November 6th 2008 by Leendah