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A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
The survival of the traditional music of Ireland down through the centuries is impressive. Even as the language waned, the music retained it's vitaliy. Today, it retains the ability to move people from this island and from foreign shores. The transportative quality in the music, (which in my view is a lot of what music is all about,) expressing itself in different hues from the wistfulness of the slow reels of Clare to the frenetic energy of Donegal, is undeniable.
Should we preserve this immensely powerful musical form as a matter of historical record. Should we freeze it in time and say thus far and no further?
Should we seek to ostracise the upstarts who would seek to contribute today to that tradition by composing new tunes, dancing on the graves of their ancestors?
If the website is "not really for new compositions," why is this so?
Many new compositions that I have heard are sheer drudge but some of them are hauntingly beautiful. Also, the anonymity of this site gives people the opportunity to put new compositions to a wider audience without themselves feeling overly exposed. At one stage or another every tune in the tune book was itself composed. Why shouldn't the session be a forum in which composers feel welcome?
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
New compositions can and do get into the tune database. I don't think it's really a case of discouraging new composition.
I think the rules are more about making sure that the tunes in the database are a part of the tradition, whether composed centuries ago or months ago.
If anyone could submit as many original compositions as they wanted, well, you know what would happen to the tune database. It would be full of stuff that hasn't been vetted as sessions and isn't part of the tradition.
Here's how I think it's supposed to work: compose a tune that you think is good, then take it to sessions and see how others like it. If people like the tune they'll learn it, and it will make its way to other sessions. Soon enough, someone will add it to the tune database because it's a new tune they learned that isn't in the database yet.
So I don't think the rules here are trying to preserve the old and ignore the new, but rather to make sure that tunes have succeeded in becoming part of sessions before becoming part of the session.org tune database.
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
I think attempts to freeze a tradition without allowing anything new leads to stagnation. The best new tunes will survive the test of time and be absorbed into the tradition, the rubbish ones will be forgotten after a while.
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
Freezing it in time and saying thus far and no further is not subtle enough. How about just having ther same old conversations over and over and over and over
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
with all the wannabe popstars in irish music maybe a return to the old style really is a step forward. there is so much experimentation with the music especially rythmically which i think is stupid because people try to put rock, or funky rythms into tunes that are dance music tunes and have a set rythimcal pattern. more would be achived by experimenting with melody, try something with the melody of the tune. anyone can add a rock rythm to a tune, we have all listend to pop music. it is far more difficult to experiment with melody, or compose a good tune. that is what the greats of the 1920s did. experimenting with melody and ornamentation but not rythm. thats why they were great. maybe a return to this might actually be a change from the norm.
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
You've opened some can of worms here Macamoo!
Some interesting reading would be the Crosbhealach an Cheoil - the Crossroads Conference 1996. Here you'll read the opinions of respected traditional and contemporary Irish musicians.
It was Sean O'Riada who planted the idea that irish traditional music flows through time not unlike a river, picking up some things and depositing others along the way.
In my own humble opinion, we are all influenced by the music around us. Even the aforementioned heroes of the 1920's (Coleman, Morrison etc) were influenced by the old time music they would have come across on their emigration to the states and beyond.
Experimentation with melody is also no new thing. Ornamentation and variation is an integral part of the tradition and always has been. Musicians such as the late Tommy Potts and the very much alive and kicking John Carty have achieved great things with tasteful experimentation with the old melodies.
Carty has also written some wonderful tunes that are now very much part of the tradition. If a new tune is respectful to what has gone before, chances are it will survive with the best of the old stuff!
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
"Should we freeze it in time and say thus far and no further? "
You can do what you like. The music has long since evolved and you're as irrelevant to "the tradition" as I am.
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
We had a fella in tonight who never repeats himself - except for his habit of saying to the company, "You know this tune?" then playing a bit of it just so we recognise it. Then saying something along the lines of, "I have it this way." And proceeds to astonish us with the absolute sheer melodic brilliance of variation.
But he's one of the best whistle/flute players.
The moral is, try this at home, but be open to the strong possibility that it's not gonna be any good.
A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
The survival of the traditional music of Ireland down through the centuries is impressive. Even as the language waned, the music retained it's vitaliy. Today, it retains the ability to move people from this island and from foreign shores. The transportative quality in the music, (which in my view is a lot of what music is all about,) expressing itself in different hues from the wistfulness of the slow reels of Clare to the frenetic energy of Donegal, is undeniable.
Should we preserve this immensely powerful musical form as a matter of historical record. Should we freeze it in time and say thus far and no further?
Should we seek to ostracise the upstarts who would seek to contribute today to that tradition by composing new tunes, dancing on the graves of their ancestors?
If the website is "not really for new compositions," why is this so?
Many new compositions that I have heard are sheer drudge but some of them are hauntingly beautiful. Also, the anonymity of this site gives people the opportunity to put new compositions to a wider audience without themselves feeling overly exposed. At one stage or another every tune in the tune book was itself composed. Why shouldn't the session be a forum in which composers feel welcome?
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Macamoo
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
New compositions can and do get into the tune database. I don't think it's really a case of discouraging new composition.
I think the rules are more about making sure that the tunes in the database are a part of the tradition, whether composed centuries ago or months ago.
If anyone could submit as many original compositions as they wanted, well, you know what would happen to the tune database. It would be full of stuff that hasn't been vetted as sessions and isn't part of the tradition.
Here's how I think it's supposed to work: compose a tune that you think is good, then take it to sessions and see how others like it. If people like the tune they'll learn it, and it will make its way to other sessions. Soon enough, someone will add it to the tune database because it's a new tune they learned that isn't in the database yet.
So I don't think the rules here are trying to preserve the old and ignore the new, but rather to make sure that tunes have succeeded in becoming part of sessions before becoming part of the session.org tune database.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Marklar
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
I think attempts to freeze a tradition without allowing anything new leads to stagnation. The best new tunes will survive the test of time and be absorbed into the tradition, the rubbish ones will be forgotten after a while.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by cathycook
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
Freezing it in time and saying thus far and no further is not subtle enough. How about just having ther same old conversations over and over and over and over
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by ...
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
with all the wannabe popstars in irish music maybe a return to the old style really is a step forward. there is so much experimentation with the music especially rythmically which i think is stupid because people try to put rock, or funky rythms into tunes that are dance music tunes and have a set rythimcal pattern. more would be achived by experimenting with melody, try something with the melody of the tune. anyone can add a rock rythm to a tune, we have all listend to pop music. it is far more difficult to experiment with melody, or compose a good tune. that is what the greats of the 1920s did. experimenting with melody and ornamentation but not rythm. thats why they were great. maybe a return to this might actually be a change from the norm.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
You've opened some can of worms here Macamoo!
Some interesting reading would be the Crosbhealach an Cheoil - the Crossroads Conference 1996. Here you'll read the opinions of respected traditional and contemporary Irish musicians.
It was Sean O'Riada who planted the idea that irish traditional music flows through time not unlike a river, picking up some things and depositing others along the way.
In my own humble opinion, we are all influenced by the music around us. Even the aforementioned heroes of the 1920's (Coleman, Morrison etc) were influenced by the old time music they would have come across on their emigration to the states and beyond.
Experimentation with melody is also no new thing. Ornamentation and variation is an integral part of the tradition and always has been. Musicians such as the late Tommy Potts and the very much alive and kicking John Carty have achieved great things with tasteful experimentation with the old melodies.
Carty has also written some wonderful tunes that are now very much part of the tradition. If a new tune is respectful to what has gone before, chances are it will survive with the best of the old stuff!
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by ceolman
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
"Should we freeze it in time and say thus far and no further? "
You can do what you like. The music has long since evolved and you're as irrelevant to "the tradition" as I am.
And as relevant.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Bren
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
llig, how very dare you suggest we are repeating ourselves !
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
We had a fella in tonight who never repeats himself - except for his habit of saying to the company, "You know this tune?" then playing a bit of it just so we recognise it. Then saying something along the lines of, "I have it this way." And proceeds to astonish us with the absolute sheer melodic brilliance of variation.
But he's one of the best whistle/flute players.
The moral is, try this at home, but be open to the strong possibility that it's not gonna be any good.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by ...
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
Yeah llig, how very dare you suggest we are repeating ourselves !
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
Good angle, Bren. We are all basically irrelevant.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
...and totally relevant at the same time! For without anyone playing it...
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
Only this morning, I was looking at myself in the mirror and saying, "I'm irrelevant, I'm irrelevant." But that might be a different story.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: A living tradition? Some thoughts from a devil's advocate.
You're irrelevant man!, as they said to Joe Merrick
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Bren