I have now put up examples of slow rolls and articulation on the concertina,on sound lantern
.the point of this is to prove to Micheal Gill that they can be played and that concertinas can articulate.
it is not a question of whether you like my playing.,
it is aquestion of wthether they can be played on the concertina,they can be heard on sound lantern, they are filed as slow rolls under Richard Miles,or DickMiles
in theory and in practice a proper fiddle roll can be played on every note of the English and Duet concertina,something that cant be acheived on the fiddle
.it is impossible to play a proper fiddle roll on open strings,on the fiddle,so either something slightly different has to be done or a treble or a double stop,unless the fiddler has good technique which allows him,to shift position,in which casg he can play [for example] A B A G A,Without using the open string
.proper fidle rolls can also be played on the anglo concertina De Dc#D,is one example,there are also a couple more.
I think Michael Gill's right that it's impossible to make a roll sound exactly like a fiddle roll, but it's possible to imitate that sound. The most important thing is nailing the rhythm of it. My approach is very different to yours, Dick. A lot of fiddlers, when they play a roll, they make it "pop" by treating the grace notes as "blips", a bit like you get on the pipes. Michael's point about this is that, on the pipes, fiddle, flute, whistle, etc, these blips are achieved by _interrupting_ the rolling note. On the pipes, you lift a finger off for a split second, and on the fiddle you flick your finger down so that it hardly touches the string. That's what gives the roll its percussive effect. With a concertina - any type, anglo, english , duet, whatever - you can't interrupt a note like that, because if you keep your finger down on a lower note and play a higher note on top, the lower note will keep sounding unless you take your finger off. The only thing you can do is devise some system for yourself where you take your finger off the rolling note for a microsecond, and at the same time, play a higher note that is only a microsecond long, and then when you've finished playing the microsecond-long higher note, you put your finger back on the low note at exactly the right moment. This is extremely hard to do, and demands that you time your hands to do actions that feel very different and have very different functions on each side of the box. On one side of the box you're playing your rolling note, and on the other you're playing staccato "blip" notes that sound best if you can hardly hear them.
As for the issue of articulation, again, on the fiddle and pipes, cuts are achieved by interrupting the note. If you attempt to imitate that on the concertina, you need to keep your grace notes as short as possible, and time them just right. There are other things you can do to enhance the effect and attempt to imitate bow crunches and stuff - you can use sudden changes of bellows to send a kind of "shock" or "ripple" down them, or knock the bellows together, or slap the side of the concertina percussively WHILST you're doing a cut to make a kind of hiccup or coughing sound, a bit like the effect you get from the glottal stop which we use to articulate words in speech, making the difference between "the-apple" and "the...ʔAPPle".
Dow ,thankyou.
but the point is they can be done, I agree thay are not easy,and they will not sound exactly like the fiddle,but they wont on the button accordion either
because it a concertina,is not a stringed instrument
Micheal said you cant articulate on the banjo or the concertina,well he is wrong.
Dow, I know youwill agree with me ,that there is room for variety in style and if we all sounded the same it would be boring.
furthermore that the Important thing is to enjoy playing music,
I enjoyed your clip on sound lantern, you are a very good player
I really don't think Michael's trying to be nasty or scathing, it's just his way of making the point that all you can do on a concertina (because of the mechanics of how it produces sound) is attempt to imitate pipe and fiddle ornaments, but because it's not possible to make them work in the same way, they're always going to be approximations of that sound.
let us also remember that how rolls are played by fiddlers varies as well,some like to emphasise the first note more than others there is no right way,some like to use different notes to cut the main note,for example some fiddlers might play a b roll ,b d b a b,some prefer bc#bab.
I find it much easier to use four note ornamentation more like a banjo or a fiddler trebling bc# bb or b bc#b, or to get apipey sound b low e b b all of which is acceptable.
<< I really don't think Michael's trying to be nasty or scathing,>>
that would be a first eh?
I'm not sure about this imitation idea, Perhaps some players do try, but why? A fiddle can't copy pipers ornaments, a piper cant do what a fiddler can , etc etc. Use the ornaments that you enjoy playing where and when you enjoy playing them. Seems simple to me...
This whole idea of their being a hierarchy of instruments? I think its come from some imaginative 'blurb' writers on CD covers. If CD's is all the real exposure you have then I can see how this idea might spread.. All instruments get respect in the ITM community, and all good players do too. For their music, if not their personalities!
Also all this anti-guitar, or anti -Bodhran stuff?! I have never actually encountered this in real life sessions. Spoons, well thats another matter! [I joke, I joke] Maybe this kind of thing happens in England or America? I dont know...
No-one knocks guitars or bodhráns, Ionannas. They're absolutely fine used correctly. It's only when people try to make musical instruments out of them that anybody gets upset.
before I get started, (I've not listened to the clip yet, a bit busy) it's worth clearing up that while every instrument has its own articulations specific to it, the roll we speak of is exactly the same on the fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle (with the exception of open strings and all holes covered etc). There are not fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle versions of the roll. A roll is a roll.
I don't know, dick, quite honestly I don't think the roll you demonstrate sounds all that roll like to my ears. It's ok, but it seems to be only an approximation of what seems possible on a fiddle. Oddly it sounds a bit midi-like truth be told -- a bit mechanical as opposed to musical in fact. Or maybe it's just a matter of taste. Not sure I buy it. But I'll defer to more seasoned ears/players than myself. My 2 cents worth.
<<There are two styles of playing rolls. One is to play melodically, like [Michael] Coleman. I think of it as an older style because I don't hear modern players play it so much. James Kelly plays them. it's more like a turn, where you actually hear both grace notes, the grace note above and the grace note below>.> Dale Russ
....and of course the type of roll exemplified by Kevin Burke.
Which of these Rolls is exactly the same as a pipers roll? or a Fluters roll then ?
Ionannas, fluters and fiddlers can do any of the types of roll you mention. The two extremes are the open, melodic (or notey) roll exemplified by Coleman, Kelly, and Seamus Connolly. The other is the poppy, percussive roll typical of Kevin Burke's playing. Lots of fiddlers do both, as fits their mood and the tune. Most fluters tend to favor the more open, notey roll, but again, some play a poppier, more percussive roll, and most do both.
Point is, these flute and fiddle rolls are rhythmically and melodically identical, not mere approximations of each other.
What dickens does sounds to me like an approximation, and not a particularly successful one. It sounds like a concertina trying to play a roll, and not managing it. As opposed to coming up with a more rhythmically suitable, concertina-specific articulation to use in place of a roll. Just my $0.02.
<<Point is, these flute and fiddle rolls are rhythmically and melodically identical, not mere approximations of each other.>>
Point is that they are not.
The first has a 5 beat phrase the second 3, they are both melodically and rhythmically different.
Llig says that pipe fiddle and whistle rolls are exactly the same.How can this be when just on the fiddle there are 2 types of roll. The first goes Da De Da Da Dum, the second Da Da Dum.
I agree with that too - that a roll is a roll, whether it be on pipes, fiddle, flute, or whistle. The only difference is that depending on the instrument you can sometimes use different notes to cut with, like on a low E roll on whistle you can cut using one of your top fingers to get a really clean, poppy sound, whereas on the fiddle it's unlikely that you'd cut much higher than a G, just because of the finger stretch. Could be wrong on this - correct me if I am. But the basic idea of the roll is the same - it performs the same function, and the rhythmic effect is the same (assuming that it's the same player on both the instruments you're comparing).
No, both take the space of 3 1/8th notes. note, above, note, below, note.
Da De Da Da Dum effectively a turn. 5 notes heard .
.Da Da Dum effectively 3 notes.with the cut above and and below , not taking any time, simply percussive, blips.
Now as to the note above, this varies depending on the note we are rolling from. A roll on E can use typically F, F# or G. A whistlers however can use AB or C# as the high note. So there are a number of different ways to Roll. depending on the feel required and instrument played.
Heh, well it would be easier if we could play these rolls to each other instead of trying to type about them--"dancing about architecture" eh?
Ion, if we're talking long rolls, yes, there are open, notey rolls and crunchy percussive ones. I can play both on fiddle and flute. They are the same. Sure, I can choose different fingers for the cuts and taps, but I can do that on both instruments as well. The point is, I can and do play rolls on both flute and fiddle that are SO identical in their timing and articulation of the notes, cuts, and taps that any differences are imperceivable. The same is not possible on some other instruments.
Ionanass, It does not _have_ to be 5 notes heard, 7 note rolls are common on pipes and whistles but they fit into the length of 3 1/8th notes but I'm sure you know that. Like you say they can be played many ways, especially on flute or whistle because of the nature of the instrument, as long as the timing is right.
I didn't know that Bogman, thanks. Would they be called rolls?
If the two main types of long roll were identical there would not be 2 types at all, right? and the various fingering possibilities show that there are a variety of rolls,that vary on different instruments. It is very unlikely that anyone uses a high C# to roll to on the fiddle, while that is standard on the whistle. I dont see there can be any argument here.
A concertina roll is effectively a 5 note roll, I gather. I dont know which high notes are common, not being a concertina player myself. Is it simple enough to cut with a selection of higher note like the whistle?ie E roll with A, B C# as the higher notes?
Ion, yes there are two types of long rolls. And BOTH can be played on both flute and fiddle. So a fluter and fiddler could choose (and often do, when they know each other well) to play the same type of roll at the same time. In other words, they can match each other extremely closely. Some other instruments cannot replicate these rolls.
Or are you just winding up the argument for argument's sake?
Not At all will. I'm not arguing with the facts, just clarifying them.
<< yes there are two types of long rolls. And BOTH can be played on both flute and fiddle>>
Exactly.
Except, of course, where they are different! Eg; you cannot cut with a high C~ on the fiddle. So melodically there are obvious differences. Rhythmically there are 2 types , although according to bogman there are other possibilities not available to the fiddle on pipes; a 7 note roll in the space of 3 1/8th notes.
If something differs by 20% it can not , by any stretch of the imagination, be described, as llig does, as exactly the same.
It is clear that there are options on flute that are simply not available to the fiddle.
I think what Will is saying is that they CAN do the same long rolls. But because flutes and whistle have so many different grace note and tonguing possibilities there are more variants of the long roll than on other instruments. It's relatively simple to do 7 notes in the space of three 1/8's (or even two 1/8 notes) compared to others instruments as you don't have to do anything in order to play the main note. For example with this A{c}A{B}A{G}A once you have played the first A then you only have to play the other notes and the A sound automatically. Hope I'm clearer than mud
I never said they couldn't do the same thing In fact I agreed with you ....
I said rolls are not all exactly the same. Specifically on fiddle flute and pipes .But more generally; every player will instil their rolls with their own essence. In fact every roll is different., unless we are talking about Midi and I dont think we are. That is part of the Beauty of this music, the individual interpretation.
Ion, of course every roll comes out nuanced and different every time. No one is suggesting otherwise. But that's an "angels on the head of a pin" debate. That doesn't negate the reality that a concertina "roll" is audibly and substantially different.
That's a high C# on the D string Ben,rolling on the E , the example used throughout my posts. On the Whistle any finger can be raised as the high note of a roll, as long as its above the 'root' note.
<<That doesn't negate the reality that a concertina "roll" is audibly and substantially different.>>
I have not argued that point at all. The concertina roll we heard here is a roll, containing 5 notes, a turn, similar to the older style of fiddle roll.
"...high C# on the D string..., rolling on the E."
I can't fathom what you're on about there. Why would anyone go into 2nd or 3rd position to catch a cut for rolling the E? But that's not to say that a fiddler can't roll the E by cutting with F nat, F#, G, G#, or even A (fourth finger).
Well, that's *not* what I understood you to mean. Interesting, though ... I know you can do different things but, as others have said, so what? And by the way, I don't agree that you *can* cut with a C# on an E roll on whistle. Well, you can't on mine, anyway. The upper note, when you raise the appropriate finger for a C#, will sound as more or less a B nat. If you raise the same finger when rolling on the F#, you will find that the cut note sounds as a C nat.
I've now tried these 'rolls'. I don't think I like them. I think I'll stick to the ones that sound more like the whistle sound I like. Which happen to be quite like fiddle rolls ... remarkably like ...
Yeah, I picked up on that too--cutting the E with a C# on fiddle or whistle doesn't make much sense. Can't say I've ever heard any decent players do that.
While I like the sentiment that there is nothing wrong with the concertina for Irish music (the articulation it produces seems to me adequate to reproduce the desired idiom), I think the clip is a nice example of how *not* to convince people that the concertina is suitable to irish music.
Firstly:
It seems straight forward that there are opposing camps who believe they are right. The cans and the can'ts. There is no reconciliation here. Dickens truly believes that what his clip shows is a roll. Leaving the side issue of the specific notes used, I say the most important thing to get is the timing. It's not really five notes, it's a percussive thing. Dickens thinks he has it, I know he doesn't. But does that matter? I'm not sure. I'd like to defend his right to play however he wants. Rather like the defenders of Lady Chatterly, even though they knew it was a rubbish book.
The lack of any chance of a reconciliation should, in theory, draw a line under the whole thing. However, I fear it won't.
It doesn't really matter that some people will listen to Dickens' clip and think, yeah, well that's a roll alright. And others might say, "I don't think the roll you demonstrate sounds all that roll like, it sounds a bit midi-like truth be told." It's unfortunately irrelevant. Because it's irreconcilable.
I don't really know what to say, I'm at a bit of a loss. I know he'll come back and with a deep sigh I'll probably respond. To be honest, I'm a bit depressed about it and that annoys me.
However, I keep my mind open on the bigger picture and although I'm of the opinion that rolls can't be played on the concertina - and Dickens' clip obviously reinforces that - I would still dearly love to be proved wrong. And besides, the whole conversation pales into insignificance when I listen to Edel Fox play.
Secondly:
I want to take the bloke's fingers, strap 'em into a vice and smack 'em with a feckin lump hammer. The feckin useless git.
Don't look at the fingers - if it *sounds* like a roll, its a roll. If it doesn't,
it's just flopping around or melodic variation, to be kind. The technique
used to make that sound is irrelevant. That's what I think anyhow.
Ah, bagels are one of my specialties. The dough is easy, it's all in a good proper boil.
Of course, what constitutes a boil varies, depending on elevation, amount of salt added to the water, minerals and other constituents present in the water, whether the heat source is constant or not, even the size of the pot. Maybe I'll post a youtube vid of me boiling some water...properly.
Will I tried making them only once and they were like rocks. My
aunt Ruth made dynamite ones, using a baking stone. I'll give it
another shot some time. I have few regrets about leaving the USA,
but the bagels --- that's a big one.
this is hilarious. You may well be able to "do" rolls on a concertina, what do I know. However, I don't think that what I heard were rolls. Rolls don't make any sense. They are much more than the sum of their parts and simply sticking the parts together doesn't make that whole. You can play all the parts on a piano if you like.
What I mean, Random, is that you don't have to do an "official" roll
the way rolls are usually described. What does it matter, so long as it
sounds right? Going back to Dow's post above - that's not a description
of a "proper fiddle roll" - but it makes a roll-like sound - which is the
object of the game - NOT proving that you can play the textbook
sequence of notes. If the "proper" way doesn't sound right, why would
you use that technique -- nobody gives you points for it.
Huh? I can't find anything in Dow's posts that describes a non-standard roll on fiddle. I must be misunderstanding you, Hup.
But bear in mind: there's almost always more than one right way to play this music, but there are also many wrong ways to play it.
E.g., I've seen and heard really good Irish fiddlers cut a first finger roll with middle, ring, or fourth finger. I rarely use middle myself for such a cut, but routinely use either ring or fourth finger to do both percussive and melodic rolls. They sound "right" either way.
The fact that I've also heard fiddlers annihilate rolls by cutting with the same fingers doesn't mean the technique itself is wrong. It's their execution that's the problem.
before I get started, (I've not listened to the clip yet, a bit busy) it's worth clearing up that while every instrument has its own articulations specific to it, the roll we speak of is exactly the same on the fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle (with the exception of open strings and all holes covered etc). There are not fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle versions of the roll. A roll is a roll.
so spoke Micheal Gill.
just another example of this mans ignorance,whistle players do have to use different notes for their rolls[check out Geraldine Cotters whistle tutor]AN E Roll is eaede,a fiddler would not play an e roll thus,but would play it e f# e de,an a roll is a c#a g e ,a fiddler most often plays abaga.
Micheal Gills post tell us much about himself.
now in conversations over the years,with other English concertina players,including Alistair Anderson,I have discussed fiddle style rolls,and how thay are played on the english concertina,the general consensus is that there is an emphasis on the first note and that the notes used to cut are on the opposite sideof the instrument to the main note.[as played in my clip]
so an English concertina player could play a whistle type roll on the e,or a fiddle type roll.
I stipulate in my tutor that my way is not the only way,but I happen to know it is very similiar to Alistair Andersons approach.
Alistair Anderson is a player I rate highly,and I take more notice of his opinion than MichealGill,and although he now specialises in Northumbrian music,he has recorded irish tunes very successfully.
I repeat ,Articulation is used on both the banjo and the Concertina,despiteGills suggestions to the contrary.
Concertina rolls and accordion rolls[even when using the same notes] will always sound different to fiddle rolls,but that is not a reason for not doing them.
concertina rolls on the anglo comncertina can vary too,it is possible to do fiddle style rolls to some extent,or to do what Edel Fox does[which is different again].
Secondly:
I want to take the bloke's fingers, strap 'em into a vice and smack 'em with a feckin lump hammer. The feckin useless git
so spoke MichealGill.
well, I would like to take a fecking lump hammer and smash it in your mouth.
if you got to my my space you will see remarks their from players like Tim Edey,praising my playing.
I saw ya many years ago at Broadstairs folk club in Kent and always remember your great songs and concertina playing. I spend alot of my time in Dingle these days so not too far from yourself
"whistle players do have to use different notes for their rolls[check out Geraldine Cotters whistle tutor]AN E Roll is eaede,a fiddler would not play an e roll thus,but would play it e f# e de,an a roll is a c#a g e ,a fiddler most often plays abaga."
Sorry dickens, that's just not accurate. Whistle can easily play eaede OR e f# e de and both of the A variants too, not to mention various others. Tutors books should not be taken as gospel.
p.s. I'm not taking sides here but the whistle is not a good instrument to compare to a concertina when it comes to rolls as the flexibility for rolls is one of the whistles strengths.
I am talking about e on the d string,all the irish fiddlers I know play it e f# e d e,or egede,the following tutors confirm this: Matt Crannitch,and Paul Mcnevin.
I have not encountered any Irish fiddlers,here in ireland who roll eaede,because it leaves the fiddler with two unfavourable options,using the litle finger[or open string] for the a .
you may do it differently in America,
but I have never met a fiddler here in Ireland who rolls EAEDE.
Regardless, the point isn't what notes you cut and tap with, but the general premise of cutting with a note above and tapping with a note below. It really doesn't matter which finger you use in the percussive style of roll because you don't let the pitch sound--it's just an interruption of the string or air flow.
Timing and a sense of pulse is what makes it a roll and not some muddy mulligan of noise.
Herein lies the crux of the matter, Mr llig seems to think there is but one way to roll, which is a exactly the same on fiddle whistle and pipes.
It is clear is it not that he is simply incorrect. We have discovered numerous variants of the roll, as performed on different instrument.
Even on the fiddle, there are 2 clearly different rolls. the percussive type with a 3 beat, and the old style, with a 5 beat. Llig seems to simply be ignorant of the older style, So if it doesn't fit withing his concept of right, it must be wrong. Well Mr Gill, not only are you foul mouthed but an ignoramus as well.
His comment earlier, was exceedingly offensive The most unpleasant and objectionable thing I have seen on this forum, I am astounded that those comments have not been remarked upon, or deleted and he has not been banned.
Ionannas, I routinely use both types of rolls on fiddle and flute. The percussive roll is the same on either instrument, and the more even, open roll is the same on each instrument.
I think of both of them having a 5 count, but I suspect that's just a semantic difference in how we're talking about it, and we do mean the same thing.
Of course, winds can also do types of rolls that fiddles can't and vice versa. But that doesn't nullify the ability to do essentially identical rolls.
I don't think it's helpful to hang the crux of an argument on something you assume I think. And then in the next sentence to say that I am wrong to think what you assume I think.
Of course there is not one roll. And neither is there only two. James Kelly's marvellous playing in particular is splendid testament to this. But all these rolls (excepting the side issue of the specific notes) are the same on the fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes. And there are, of course, other percussive things made to sound much like fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes rolls designed for other instruments incapable of fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes rolls.
It is unfortunate that Dickens is still hung up on the side issue of which specific notes to use. It's unclear why he doesn't hear that it's in the timing. All his quotes of what rolls are are from books, and this may have something to do with him not hearing it. Conjecture.
I don't think it's helpful to describe what rolls are. Much better to give examples. But then that can backfire, as we've seen here.
And I don't think that being a little "foul mouthed" is helpful either. But then nothing on this thread is ever going to help anyone, so I might as well be honest about how I feel about it. As said, at the very least, it's revealing. I care about the music,
let us also remember that how rolls are played by fiddlers varies as well,some like to emphasise the first note more than others there is no right way,some like to use different notes to cut the main note,for example some fiddlers might play a b roll ,b d b a b,some prefer bc#bab.
I find it much easier to use four note ornamentation more like a banjo or a fiddler trebling bc# bb or b bc#b, or to get apipey sound b low e b b all of which is acceptable..
micheal gill, this is what I said in my earlier post,
I demonstrated a fiddle style roll,on the concertina just to show that it is possible,the point is that there is an emphasis on the first note but this will vary from player to player,the other important point,is that on the English concertina,the easiest thing to do is to cut on the opposite side[note used is not so important,but I prefer note above and note below]others may prefer different notes.
it is aload of crap to suggest that Idont listen to other musicians,but get my ideas purely from written music,I do both.
in fact my favourite ornamentations are not rolls,but single grace notes /and four note ornamentaion and octave triplets and four note pipey effects e [lowb]ee.hence there are no rolls used on my reels on you tube,and not much on my jigs on either sound lantern or you tube.
but since you made the provocative and trolling /flaming statement,that rolls and articulation were not possible on the concertina and the banjo,i felt duty bound to reply.
Edel Fox,uses a d roll which goes thus, a d then[high d] b d d ,or something very similiar.
incidentally, she said to me lovely playing on an english concertina[and I have a roomful of witnesses].
Ienclose an interview with SimonThoumire
Posted 15 August 2005
Playing the English Concertina—My Technique
Simon Thoumire
simon@scottishtraditionalmusic.com
How did your technique come about?
I think it came right from the start when Edinburgh player Tom Ward got me the 48 key wooden ended Lachenal. He didn't teach, but he gave me a copy of Alistair Anderson's beginners instruction book "Concertina Work Shop" and I taught myself from there. As far as I can remember, there were no pictures in the book to show how the instrument should be held, so, instead of holding it straight down with the buttons going horizontal to my leg in what I later learned was the conventional manner, I started off holding it at an angle of 90 degrees so my hands were quite far up. Six months later, when I got my 56 key Wheatstone Æola, I got into the habit of holding it with my hands at 45 degrees, probably because it was a heavier instrument. Also, I decided to not use the pinky holders because I felt that it was really restrictive and stopped me getting down to the notes.
Nowadays I still hold the concertina at around 45 degrees, and with the thumb straps loosening over time and being really wide, I can move my hands up and down the key board instead of just my fingers. As a result, I can play right down the bottom end of my 56 key instrument with my index and middle fingers. I don't use my third finger that much on the left-hand side of the concertina. I think this came about as the result of constantly practicing "rolls" with only my index and middle fingers. I do use my third finger if I'm playing an F natural to F sharp (that's the F's above middle C on the left hand). I'll use the middle finger to the third finger for a grace note. But other than that, if I'm not doing some sort of chromatism, I find not using the third finger a really good thing, because it doesn't get in the way. Of course, I do use the third finger if I'm doing chords, but that's a different thing entirely. My right hand is using normal fingering, i.e.using all three fingers. Although, if I'm doing a roll on the far right, I would still use my index and middle finger, But that's more out of laziness because I never spent time working out my rolls on my middle and third finger. What I find about the conventional technique of the concertina going parallel with the leg is that it really restricts getting down to the lower notes quickly. And the whole thing of having to bend the index finger right down to the bottom notes of the instruments is very hard to do. Basically, my technique works for me insofar as it gives me greater flexibility and full command of the keyboard.
What has come out of using this technique?
When I was very young, I remember going along to a workshop taken by Scottish concertina player Norman Chalmers. He was talking about concertina players who do "rolls" just using their index and middle fingers. It was the first time I had heard this and it fascinated me. I think he was actually talking about Anglo players but I misheard and took the idea home to start work on. It is now quite at the centre of my technique. It is very rhythmical and gives me a choice of different styles. It can be legato or staccato and, it is great for playing rhythms.
I am particularly interested in lightness of playing. When I play my bellows I will get in 8 octaves of G, up and down on the one bellow without loss of clarity. I think this is because I have worked hard to develop very good bellows pressure. I feel the bellows pressure in my left hand (I hold the concertina on my right knee and I pull out with my left hand) and I would describe my control of the bellows as very steady and very light. I'm not really into bellows shakes because I feel it takes away a bit from the player's control of the instrument. For example, pulling out the bellows, the control is in the left hand and not in the bellows. I can play fast or slow, accelerate or decelerate, always being in total control of what's going on. It is very effective in, for example, slow airs or adding vibrato. It's all about bellows work.
I am often asked about octave playing. It is one of the things I've developed in my playing to allow me to get different sounds. If I am playing in a scale of G starting above middle C on the left hand, I can play the octave below (at the same time) all the way up and down without thinking about it . Basically my right hand is mimicking what the left hand does (and vice versa). In other words, anything that I do in the middle octave around middle C, I can duplicate with the other hand. So, if I'm playing in a scale of A major I find it very easy to play the octave above or below without thinking about it - the hand just seems to go there. Working in inverse (as it seems) does not perhaps sound obvious or natural, but in a way that's not what's happening, because the hands are still moving in the same direction. It gives a very nice effect as well—using bellows control and a little bit of vibrato moving up the scale and octaves in intervals of thirds and fifths. Also, the octave thing can be in any interval, so moving up the keyboard in thirds or sevenths or flat ninths or whatever, is actually quite fun.
When I was very young my dad played a lot of jazz in the house and I was very interested in making my music swing. To get the effect I was looking for, I started to "dot" everything, like a fast hornpipe. Then, through listening to musicians like Louis Armstrong, The Hot Five, and Johnny Dodds etc. it came to me how to swing the music. Swing exists on the second and fourth beats of the bar, unlike a lot of traditional music which is played on the first and third beats. So now, when I play a reel, I'm quite conscious that I'm playing the rhythm on the second and fourth beat (which is termed as playing on the up beat of the bar). I'm controlling this with the bellows—playing little pushes and pulls.
The other thing about my technique is that it allows me to play very fast—while not sounding too fast(!). There are so many fast tunes and jigs as well as the beautiful slow airs in the celtic repertoire (as you will hear on my CD The Big Day In), so to be able to play them requires good technique and loads of practice.
I'm very familiar with Simon's playing and I've never heard him play a roll. What he's talking about here is his trademark shotgun triplet thing. He does it by "rolling" his fingers across the button. You can call it what you like.
Do you not play rolls on your reels because you can't?
I would like to hear what you refer to as a roll from Edel Fox. As I've always said, I keep an open mind, and although I'm of the opinion that you can't play rolls on a concertina, if anyone can change my mind, it will be her.
(and I'm happy for you that most people are more polite than I)
I occasionally use short rolls in reels[two grace notescutting before and after],on a dotted crotchet.
and long rolls on a dotted crotchet in jig time.
but I think other forms of ornamentation preferable.
however on occasions I do use them
I prefer to use other forms of ornamentation,my favourite being four note trebles in jigs,generally playing note above,and using two different rhythms,turning either the first or the second quaver into two semiquavers
I also use octave triplets, triplets,modal chord triplets,single grace notes,octave doubles.double stops and octaves
two note,doubles,on same note,but playing the first one like a grace note,which i do by rolling two fingers across the button.
Micheal Gill also said,you cant articulate on the banjo and the concertina.
if this is not a flaming/ trolling remark,then nothing is,I can only conclude that he is a personal friend of Jeremys,and so is allowed to do and say anything.
look if you want to hear edel fox play aroll, listen on youtube,Ihavent got time for thiscrap .
I never said that. I said that certain articulations available to you on the fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle, certain articulations particular to Irish music, are not available to you on the concertina and banjo.
I can't speak for old-timey, I'm not interested in it. And I can't speak for how easy either is, it's irrelevant. But for Irish diddley music, there is very little you can't do on the flute that you can do on the fiddle, and vice versa.
Yes, concertinas and banjos and piano accordions, etc, are on a second tier, because they are not capable of the required articulations. But the flute? No way. The flute is the tops, the essence, the business of the music
.thats what you said,now stop wasting time,they are capable of the required articulations.
you are a flaming troll
Where did I say you "can't" articulate on the banjo and the concertina?
That thread you quoted from above was about someone suggesting the flute was not as versatile as the fiddle. Of course the simple system flute is not as versatile as the fiddle, But this is not the case with Irish music, because they share the ability to perform the many necessary articulations. Other instruments articulate in different ways
A young girl showed up early at our session this evening with her Dad, asking who the banjo players were. Now this girl has been to the session before playing fiddle, not half badly as I recall; turns out she wants to learn the banjo because of it's sound - go figure...
a more appropriate place to play a melodic roll/turn on the concertina,could be a slower O Carolan pIece.
OCarolan was influenced by baroque musicians,and approved of the use of the turn.
and no I am not going to demonsrate it,Idont have the time to waste on this rubbish.
[.A young girl showed up early at our session this evening with her Dad, asking who the banjo players were. Now this girl has been to the session before playing fiddle, not half badly as I recall; turns out she wants to learn the banjo because of it's sound - go figure...]
I am not surprised that people should want to learn the banjo,it is an instrument with great drive,and unlike the simple system flute,can play the full range of notes,needed for traditional music,that doesnt make it better, just different,to put instruments into a tiers system is puerile/ childish,and starts to introduce a competitive feel between instruments.
any instrument that allows people to make music is good.end of story
I did ,very nice too,but the ornament was not a roll,it was a four note twiddle,a long roll SLOW ROLL or turn consists of five notes..
the simple systyem flute as I understand it [plesae correct me if Iam wrong, Iam not a flute player]has afew notes at the bottom end range of the violin,that are missing.[or is it that they are difficult to play]
is it possible to play the home ruler on the simple system flute flute,playing all the bottom notes?
Right oh ... If this whole thread has been hanging on a mere semantic misunderstanding, I'll eat my fiddle, and wash it down with the fecking lump hammer.
Let's start again ...
You can't play slow rolls - the very common form of articulation used in Irish traditional music (re the example posted above) - on a concertina. (Dickens calls them four note twiddles, but it's of no consequesnce what either of us call them)
Agree or disagree?
If agree, example please?
(ps. http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/310 and do you really honestly think that the flute and the pipes do not have what is "needed" to play Irish music because they can't go below the bottom D?)
Don't know why I skipped over this thread when it was posted a week ago (possibly because I anticipated a discussion that was upwards of 90% p*ssing match - don't know where I could have gotten that idea, really) - however -
Grab your tinwhistle ~
cut > play a single note, swiftly raise&lower a single finger (above the lowest covered hole), that's it
tap (strike) > play a single note, switly uncover&cover the hole directly below the lowest covered hole.
Same on flutes.
Pipes are the same, though they are a tricky lot.
Fiddlers are really tricky. I have no idea how they do a cut. Taps must be similar to flute/whistle/pipes.
So when all else fails, TD &M, keep a tinwhistle handy.
Thanks; I don't have any tin whistles, but i have a pair of ocarinas and the principles are similar.
And for the most part, as far as ornaments/articulations go, where wind players lift a finger, fiddlers put one down, and vice versa. Not too complicated, really....
There is another way to do a cut than what I described. cover&uncover the lowest covered hole.
Slightly different effect..
I just don't know how a fiddler can do a cut above & a cut below.
Shhhhhh! Sorry, I didn't see that catheter. I'll tell the nurse, on my way out, that I tucked you all in for the night and left the night light on. Would you like him to bring you some hot milk and cinammon? I'll ask him stop in to check your pulses in the next hour or so... Some of you don't look so good... ~
Llig, I wonder, you seem congenitally unable to see the fallacies in your argument. Blindly defying reason. You seem to lack the basic understanding of the word exact for example.
Is there any point in discussing anything with you when you seem unable to concede a point? Rolls differ, on the various instruments ,in their rhythms, in the notes used. and even by the same player on different instruments. So tell me, how can you say they are exactly the same when they clearly are not?
It appears to me that you seem to be saying , in your argument, that a roll is exactly the same as a roll. without reference to the actual things themselves, which vary considerably.
You seem to have an understanding of rolls that is cyclical; A roll is only a roll if you say it is a roll. Can you not see, from your own comment above that Dickens roll as played on the link, is a roll by your own definition? note , note above, note, note below, note. ...' exactly the same'.
Perhaps you do have a rational argument that does not consist of ' because I said so' I would be interested in hearing it.
llig you need to listen to Matt Molloy more closely. Different!
Fiddlers have talents I do not understand, Good ones are able to emulate the sound you get from say a cran on flute or pipes.
For the most part flutes have certain articulations which fiddles have to do differently.
On the other hand fiddlers play articulations which flutes do not have.
The recent discussions about Doherty's bowing.
Anything along those lines flutes or box players will try to mimic. But at some point one has to get creative.
Viva La Diférence!
Nowhere have I not embraced the many many ways of playing rolls. Yes, viva La diférence, But don't underestimate the power of unison, and the very important learning hurdle of copying your betters.
A roll maybe the note, note above, note, note below, note, but that is not what defines in. The definition is in the timing. But anyway, I'm not interested in the definition any more, the whole semantic argument is impossible to resolve. You can call what ever you want a roll. is doesn't matter. Dickens calls his note, note above, note, note below, note on his clip a roll, and he calls Matt Molloy's roll a four note twiddle. It doesn't matter. It's utterly irrelevant
What matters is that that sound, that very very common sound in Irish music, that is exampled by Matt Molloy on the clip I posted is done exactly the same on the fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes. It sounds exactly the same on the fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes. I don't believe it can be done on a concertina. But I would love to be proved wrong.
I'm not interested in the argument of "'cause I said so". Please please prove me wrong. Show me.
To be honest ~ I do not want to be here. TD&M helped get me into this mess.
Michael, your last post is correct ~ if you get the sound of a long roll (on fiddle) similar to the way I hear it on flute . . .or more precisely the way someone like Matt Molloy hears it (better ears), then that (the sound) is the real deal. No bones about it.
I do not play fiddle & simply do not know 'how' you articulate on fiddle.* That is O.K.
The sound (including timing) is what's relevant
I am back. again. because you mentioned a clip of Matt Molloy. Which now I have to go find because it is Matt Molloy & . . . when I made the comment (about listening more closely to MM) I did not know you had included a clip, Not surprised though,
Cheers!
* I do not know how you ornament/ articulate in order to produce the same effect (sound) as on flute. There are subtleties for any instrument.
Thanks random. Yeah, the thing is, you get the same sound on the fiddle by doing exactly the same thing that you do on the flute. You articulate in exactly the same way ... brief interruptions of the note, above and below.
And that clip of Matt Molloy is truly sublime. He has the reputation of overdoing it, but you can't say that of these jigs. Very very simple and sublime, and the timing is so beautiful
While it is true that dickens is playing all the notes for a roll - it does not sound like a roll. The timing is shot and it sounds wrong.
the timing is not shot[what Iam playing is a turn[classical terminology]or a roll[as Micheal Coleman would have played it].
there is an emphasis on the first part of the roll as I believe there should be.
wrong,wrong.[ha ha ha]
I love people who pontificate about what is right and wrong.,
carry on, standardise everything.
[He has the reputation of overdoing it,]quote micheal gill.
what reputation,more session bullsh*t,why cant you just say his playing is good,you carping back biter.
Dickens - I am not having a go at you in the slightest. It just doesnt sound exactly what I think of when I think of a roll. If you like it then go for it, play the way you want.
Don't go back to the semantic argument, it's of no consequence now that I asked for an Irish sounding roll and you astonishingly missinterpreted me and gave me a classical turn. Get over it.
Matt Moolloy is my favourite musician. I dissagree with some peoples' opinion that he over does it. Do you want me to say he "is" the best? Do you want me to say his playing "is" good? I'm not going to take your bait and pontificate on what "is" right.
However, I stand do stand with baited breath and the lump hammer on by plate ... Is it possible to reproduce that very very common sound in Irish music, that is exampled by Matt Molloy on the clip I posted?
Sorry, my typing goes awry when I'm being goaded ....
I do stand with baited breath and the lump hammer on by plate, knife and fork at the ready ... Is it possible to reproduce that very very common sound in Irish music, that is exampled by Matt Molloy on the clip I posted, on the concertina?
BB
.I said that I only use rolls/Turns occassionally,
I gave detailed descriptions of the ornamentation I use,and what I prefer.
Gill,I would rather you said nothing at all.
as far as Iam concerned, and here we will have to disagree,a classical turn and a roll are one and the same.
if its good enough for Coleman its good enough for me.
Some good stuff here. A lttle more eratic than Matt Molloy, but lovely all the same. It's dificult for anyone to compare it with Dickens now his clip is removed.
shame about the piano player,the recording would be better without her.,but Colemans playing is excellent,bear in mind it was probably first take,and no editing.
llig,it is good manners to credit your sources,presumably you have permission?
Comments
Playing rolls on a DG box
Playing rolls on a DG box
Have any of the DG box players among you worked out how to successfully play rolls - and which notes are best suited for rolls on the instrument?
I've experimented with rolling some notes on the G row without much progress, so I'm hoping others have fared better. I'm ok with ornamenting using cross-row triplets and some single-note triplets. The different arrangement of notes on the DG means I'll never reproduce the sound of rolls on a chromatic box, but I'll still try ...
Are there any commercial videos or dvds on irish chromatic box techniques you've seen that explained rolls in a way that was transferrable to the DG box?
Flipin heck, dicky ickey whicky pickens, I think I'd rather stab myself straight in between my ears with a rusty barbecue skewer than have to listen to that clip again.
However, in the interests of not allowing my taste to interfere with the conversation at hand ... There were no rolls.
slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I have now put up examples of slow rolls and articulation on the concertina,on sound lantern
.the point of this is to prove to Micheal Gill that they can be played and that concertinas can articulate.
it is not a question of whether you like my playing.,
it is aquestion of wthether they can be played on the concertina,they can be heard on sound lantern, they are filed as slow rolls under Richard Miles,or DickMiles
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=17163
slow rolls on concertina
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
in theory and in practice a proper fiddle roll can be played on every note of the English and Duet concertina,something that cant be acheived on the fiddle
.it is impossible to play a proper fiddle roll on open strings,on the fiddle,so either something slightly different has to be done or a treble or a double stop,unless the fiddler has good technique which allows him,to shift position,in which casg he can play [for example] A B A G A,Without using the open string
.proper fidle rolls can also be played on the anglo concertina De Dc#D,is one example,there are also a couple more.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/19215/commenPr
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Sorry Michael.
I'll never tire of that. EvePr
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/19215/comments
Thats the proper liPr
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I think Michael Gill's right that it's impossible to make a roll sound exactly like a fiddle roll, but it's possible to imitate that sound. The most important thing is nailing the rhythm of it. My approach is very different to yours, Dick. A lot of fiddlers, when they play a roll, they make it "pop" by treating the grace notes as "blips", a bit like you get on the pipes. Michael's point about this is that, on the pipes, fiddle, flute, whistle, etc, these blips are achieved by _interrupting_ the rolling note. On the pipes, you lift a finger off for a split second, and on the fiddle you flick your finger down so that it hardly touches the string. That's what gives the roll its percussive effect. With a concertina - any type, anglo, english , duet, whatever - you can't interrupt a note like that, because if you keep your finger down on a lower note and play a higher note on top, the lower note will keep sounding unless you take your finger off. The only thing you can do is devise some system for yourself where you take your finger off the rolling note for a microsecond, and at the same time, play a higher note that is only a microsecond long, and then when you've finished playing the microsecond-long higher note, you put your finger back on the low note at exactly the right moment. This is extremely hard to do, and demands that you time your hands to do actions that feel very different and have very different functions on each side of the box. On one side of the box you're playing your rolling note, and on the other you're playing staccato "blip" notes that sound best if you can hardly hear them.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Dow
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
As for the issue of articulation, again, on the fiddle and pipes, cuts are achieved by interrupting the note. If you attempt to imitate that on the concertina, you need to keep your grace notes as short as possible, and time them just right. There are other things you can do to enhance the effect and attempt to imitate bow crunches and stuff - you can use sudden changes of bellows to send a kind of "shock" or "ripple" down them, or knock the bellows together, or slap the side of the concertina percussively WHILST you're doing a cut to make a kind of hiccup or coughing sound, a bit like the effect you get from the glottal stop which we use to articulate words in speech, making the difference between "the-apple" and "the...ʔAPPle".
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Dow
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Dow ,thankyou.
but the point is they can be done, I agree thay are not easy,and they will not sound exactly like the fiddle,but they wont on the button accordion either
because it a concertina,is not a stringed instrument
Micheal said you cant articulate on the banjo or the concertina,well he is wrong.
Dow, I know youwill agree with me ,that there is room for variety in style and if we all sounded the same it would be boring.
furthermore that the Important thing is to enjoy playing music,
I enjoyed your clip on sound lantern, you are a very good player
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I really don't think Michael's trying to be nasty or scathing, it's just his way of making the point that all you can do on a concertina (because of the mechanics of how it produces sound) is attempt to imitate pipe and fiddle ornaments, but because it's not possible to make them work in the same way, they're always going to be approximations of that sound.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Dow
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
let us also remember that how rolls are played by fiddlers varies as well,some like to emphasise the first note more than others there is no right way,some like to use different notes to cut the main note,for example some fiddlers might play a b roll ,b d b a b,some prefer bc#bab.
I find it much easier to use four note ornamentation more like a banjo or a fiddler trebling bc# bb or b bc#b, or to get apipey sound b low e b b all of which is acceptable.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
That's true. The most important thing is that what you're doing is rhythmically meaningful, I suppose...
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Dow
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
<< I really don't think Michael's trying to be nasty or scathing,>>
that would be a first eh?
I'm not sure about this imitation idea, Perhaps some players do try, but why? A fiddle can't copy pipers ornaments, a piper cant do what a fiddler can , etc etc. Use the ornaments that you enjoy playing where and when you enjoy playing them. Seems simple to me...
This whole idea of their being a hierarchy of instruments? I think its come from some imaginative 'blurb' writers on CD covers. If CD's is all the real exposure you have then I can see how this idea might spread.. All instruments get respect in the ITM community, and all good players do too. For their music, if not their personalities!
Also all this anti-guitar, or anti -Bodhran stuff?! I have never actually encountered this in real life sessions. Spoons, well thats another matter! [I joke, I joke] Maybe this kind of thing happens in England or America? I dont know...
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
No-one knocks guitars or bodhráns, Ionannas. They're absolutely fine used correctly. It's only when people try to make musical instruments out of them that anybody gets upset.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I totally agree Ionannas, it's people who ruin sessions not the instrument they play.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
A bumper sticker or T-shirt in the making ? Reverend ?
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by david_h
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
before I get started, (I've not listened to the clip yet, a bit busy) it's worth clearing up that while every instrument has its own articulations specific to it, the roll we speak of is exactly the same on the fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle (with the exception of open strings and all holes covered etc). There are not fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle versions of the roll. A roll is a roll.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
LOL and choking, Ben!
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Bob himself
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I don't know, dick, quite honestly I don't think the roll you demonstrate sounds all that roll like to my ears. It's ok, but it seems to be only an approximation of what seems possible on a fiddle. Oddly it sounds a bit midi-like truth be told -- a bit mechanical as opposed to musical in fact. Or maybe it's just a matter of taste. Not sure I buy it. But I'll defer to more seasoned ears/players than myself. My 2 cents worth.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by mtodd
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
<<There are two styles of playing rolls. One is to play melodically, like [Michael] Coleman. I think of it as an older style because I don't hear modern players play it so much. James Kelly plays them. it's more like a turn, where you actually hear both grace notes, the grace note above and the grace note below>.> Dale Russ
....and of course the type of roll exemplified by Kevin Burke.
Which of these Rolls is exactly the same as a pipers roll? or a Fluters roll then ?
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Ionannas, fluters and fiddlers can do any of the types of roll you mention. The two extremes are the open, melodic (or notey) roll exemplified by Coleman, Kelly, and Seamus Connolly. The other is the poppy, percussive roll typical of Kevin Burke's playing. Lots of fiddlers do both, as fits their mood and the tune. Most fluters tend to favor the more open, notey roll, but again, some play a poppier, more percussive roll, and most do both.
Point is, these flute and fiddle rolls are rhythmically and melodically identical, not mere approximations of each other.
What dickens does sounds to me like an approximation, and not a particularly successful one. It sounds like a concertina trying to play a roll, and not managing it. As opposed to coming up with a more rhythmically suitable, concertina-specific articulation to use in place of a roll. Just my $0.02.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
<<Point is, these flute and fiddle rolls are rhythmically and melodically identical, not mere approximations of each other.>>
Point is that they are not.
The first has a 5 beat phrase the second 3, they are both melodically and rhythmically different.
Llig says that pipe fiddle and whistle rolls are exactly the same.How can this be when just on the fiddle there are 2 types of roll. The first goes Da De Da Da Dum, the second Da Da Dum.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Ionannas, I'm talking about long rolls. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be bringing short rolls into the discussion.
Long roll: note - tap (above) - note - cut (below) - note
Short roll: cut (above) - note - cut (below) - note
The long roll fills the space of three eighth notes. The short roll fills the space of two eighth notes.
Both are possibly and commonly played--indentically--on flute, whistle, pipes, and fiddle.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
oops: "possible"
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Very common on pipes and whistles. This looong roll is common too. e.g. lonnng roll on A - A{c}A{B}A{G}A
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Here you go, david_h
http://www.cafepress.com/ITMGoodies.320108546
http://www.cafepress.com/ITMGoodies.320107178
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Reverend
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I agree with that too - that a roll is a roll, whether it be on pipes, fiddle, flute, or whistle. The only difference is that depending on the instrument you can sometimes use different notes to cut with, like on a low E roll on whistle you can cut using one of your top fingers to get a really clean, poppy sound, whereas on the fiddle it's unlikely that you'd cut much higher than a G, just because of the finger stretch. Could be wrong on this - correct me if I am. But the basic idea of the roll is the same - it performs the same function, and the rhythmic effect is the same (assuming that it's the same player on both the instruments you're comparing).
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Dow
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
No, both take the space of 3 1/8th notes. note, above, note, below, note.
Da De Da Da Dum effectively a turn. 5 notes heard .
.Da Da Dum effectively 3 notes.with the cut above and and below , not taking any time, simply percussive, blips.
Now as to the note above, this varies depending on the note we are rolling from. A roll on E can use typically F, F# or G. A whistlers however can use AB or C# as the high note. So there are a number of different ways to Roll. depending on the feel required and instrument played.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
<<The only difference is that depending on the instrument you can sometimes use different notes to cut with>>
Cross post with Dow.. Its clear that the various rolls are NOT exactly the same. That's the point I am making here.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Heh, well it would be easier if we could play these rolls to each other instead of trying to type about them--"dancing about architecture" eh?
Ion, if we're talking long rolls, yes, there are open, notey rolls and crunchy percussive ones. I can play both on fiddle and flute. They are the same. Sure, I can choose different fingers for the cuts and taps, but I can do that on both instruments as well. The point is, I can and do play rolls on both flute and fiddle that are SO identical in their timing and articulation of the notes, cuts, and taps that any differences are imperceivable. The same is not possible on some other instruments.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Ionanass, It does not _have_ to be 5 notes heard, 7 note rolls are common on pipes and whistles but they fit into the length of 3 1/8th notes but I'm sure you know that. Like you say they can be played many ways, especially on flute or whistle because of the nature of the instrument, as long as the timing is right.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I didn't know that Bogman, thanks. Would they be called rolls?
If the two main types of long roll were identical there would not be 2 types at all, right? and the various fingering possibilities show that there are a variety of rolls,that vary on different instruments. It is very unlikely that anyone uses a high C# to roll to on the fiddle, while that is standard on the whistle. I dont see there can be any argument here.
A concertina roll is effectively a 5 note roll, I gather. I dont know which high notes are common, not being a concertina player myself. Is it simple enough to cut with a selection of higher note like the whistle?ie E roll with A, B C# as the higher notes?
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Ion, yes there are two types of long rolls. And BOTH can be played on both flute and fiddle. So a fluter and fiddler could choose (and often do, when they know each other well) to play the same type of roll at the same time. In other words, they can match each other extremely closely. Some other instruments cannot replicate these rolls.
Or are you just winding up the argument for argument's sake?
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Not At all will. I'm not arguing with the facts, just clarifying them.
<< yes there are two types of long rolls. And BOTH can be played on both flute and fiddle>>
Exactly.
Eg; you cannot cut with a high C~ on the fiddle. So melodically there are obvious differences. Rhythmically there are 2 types , although according to bogman there are other possibilities not available to the fiddle on pipes; a 7 note roll in the space of 3 1/8th notes.
Except, of course, where they are different!
If something differs by 20% it can not , by any stretch of the imagination, be described, as llig does, as exactly the same.
It is clear that there are options on flute that are simply not available to the fiddle.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I think what Will is saying is that they CAN do the same long rolls. But because flutes and whistle have so many different grace note and tonguing possibilities there are more variants of the long roll than on other instruments. It's relatively simple to do 7 notes in the space of three 1/8's (or even two 1/8 notes) compared to others instruments as you don't have to do anything in order to play the main note. For example with this A{c}A{B}A{G}A once you have played the first A then you only have to play the other notes and the A sound automatically. Hope I'm clearer than mud
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by bogman
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Ion, just because two instruments CAN do different things doesn't mean they CAN'T also do the same thing. Your reasoning there loses me.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I never said they couldn't do the same thing In fact I agreed with you ....
I said rolls are not all exactly the same. Specifically on fiddle flute and pipes .But more generally; every player will instil their rolls with their own essence. In fact every roll is different., unless we are talking about Midi and I dont think we are. That is part of the Beauty of this music, the individual interpretation.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Hang on ... WHY can't you cut with a high c' on the fiddle? I do it often. Lots of people do.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Yep, me too, Ben.
Ion, of course every roll comes out nuanced and different every time. No one is suggesting otherwise. But that's an "angels on the head of a pin" debate. That doesn't negate the reality that a concertina "roll" is audibly and substantially different.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
That's a high C# on the D string Ben,rolling on the E , the example used throughout my posts. On the Whistle any finger can be raised as the high note of a roll, as long as its above the 'root' note.
<<That doesn't negate the reality that a concertina "roll" is audibly and substantially different.>>
I have not argued that point at all. The concertina roll we heard here is a roll, containing 5 notes, a turn, similar to the older style of fiddle roll.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
"...high C# on the D string..., rolling on the E."
I can't fathom what you're on about there. Why would anyone go into 2nd or 3rd position to catch a cut for rolling the E? But that's not to say that a fiddler can't roll the E by cutting with F nat, F#, G, G#, or even A (fourth finger).
This is silly.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Well, that's *not* what I understood you to mean. Interesting, though ... I know you can do different things but, as others have said, so what? And by the way, I don't agree that you *can* cut with a C# on an E roll on whistle. Well, you can't on mine, anyway. The upper note, when you raise the appropriate finger for a C#, will sound as more or less a B nat. If you raise the same finger when rolling on the F#, you will find that the cut note sounds as a C nat.
I've now tried these 'rolls'. I don't think I like them. I think I'll stick to the ones that sound more like the whistle sound I like. Which happen to be quite like fiddle rolls ... remarkably like ...
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
He's talking about some weird sort of whistle roll, Will ... we cross-posted. See if my above post makes anything clear ...
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Yeah, I picked up on that too--cutting the E with a C# on fiddle or whistle doesn't make much sense. Can't say I've ever heard any decent players do that.
Methinks Ionas doth protest too much....
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
While I like the sentiment that there is nothing wrong with the concertina for Irish music (the articulation it produces seems to me adequate to reproduce the desired idiom), I think the clip is a nice example of how *not* to convince people that the concertina is suitable to irish music.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Tirno
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Can't really comment, but this Concertina sounds class to me
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=E7qLCr9GBeM
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by dee.
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Whatever the instrument some ppl can just make it sing, they are different instruments, who cares about rolls etc.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by dee.
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
"Who cares about rolls, etc."
Anyone who wants to play this music (and not something that sounds more like old timey or Morris or Moravian folk music) well does care.
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Right oh ...
There's two ways into this:
Firstly:
It seems straight forward that there are opposing camps who believe they are right. The cans and the can'ts. There is no reconciliation here. Dickens truly believes that what his clip shows is a roll. Leaving the side issue of the specific notes used, I say the most important thing to get is the timing. It's not really five notes, it's a percussive thing. Dickens thinks he has it, I know he doesn't. But does that matter? I'm not sure. I'd like to defend his right to play however he wants. Rather like the defenders of Lady Chatterly, even though they knew it was a rubbish book.
The lack of any chance of a reconciliation should, in theory, draw a line under the whole thing. However, I fear it won't.
It doesn't really matter that some people will listen to Dickens' clip and think, yeah, well that's a roll alright. And others might say, "I don't think the roll you demonstrate sounds all that roll like, it sounds a bit midi-like truth be told." It's unfortunately irrelevant. Because it's irreconcilable.
I don't really know what to say, I'm at a bit of a loss. I know he'll come back and with a deep sigh I'll probably respond. To be honest, I'm a bit depressed about it and that annoys me.
However, I keep my mind open on the bigger picture and although I'm of the opinion that rolls can't be played on the concertina - and Dickens' clip obviously reinforces that - I would still dearly love to be proved wrong. And besides, the whole conversation pales into insignificance when I listen to Edel Fox play.
Secondly:
I want to take the bloke's fingers, strap 'em into a vice and smack 'em with a feckin lump hammer. The feckin useless git.
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by llig leahcim
S l o w r o l l s
Keep in mind you can learn an awful lot from watching the people who play at your local session.
# Posted on February 14th 2005 by Kerri Brown
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by Random_notes
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Don't look at the fingers - if it *sounds* like a roll, its a roll. If it doesn't,
it's just flopping around or melodic variation, to be kind. The technique
used to make that sound is irrelevant. That's what I think anyhow.
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by Hup
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I've yet to meet the fiddler who could make a proper bagel nor the piper whose baguette is to die for.
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
The dough gets the strings all sticky ...
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by Hup
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Ah, bagels are one of my specialties. The dough is easy, it's all in a good proper boil.
Of course, what constitutes a boil varies, depending on elevation, amount of salt added to the water, minerals and other constituents present in the water, whether the heat source is constant or not, even the size of the pot. Maybe I'll post a youtube vid of me boiling some water...properly.
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Will I tried making them only once and they were like rocks. My
aunt Ruth made dynamite ones, using a baking stone. I'll give it
another shot some time. I have few regrets about leaving the USA,
but the bagels --- that's a big one.
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by Hup
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Nobody makes good bagels in Australia? Sounds like an opportunity.....
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
this is hilarious. You may well be able to "do" rolls on a concertina, what do I know. However, I don't think that what I heard were rolls. Rolls don't make any sense. They are much more than the sum of their parts and simply sticking the parts together doesn't make that whole. You can play all the parts on a piano if you like.
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by pavlf
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Ha ha. Very nice Reverend.
(had been waiting for the real disussion to fade or go silly)
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by david_h
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Come on, Will. Show us your boil. Post a jpg.
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/images/dress-up/makeup/fx/boil-wart-bullet-fitted.jpg
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
. . . articulation
"The technique . . . is irrelavent."
~ telekinetic rolls?
# Posted on October 23rd 2008 by Random_notes
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
What I mean, Random, is that you don't have to do an "official" roll
the way rolls are usually described. What does it matter, so long as it
sounds right? Going back to Dow's post above - that's not a description
of a "proper fiddle roll" - but it makes a roll-like sound - which is the
object of the game - NOT proving that you can play the textbook
sequence of notes. If the "proper" way doesn't sound right, why would
you use that technique -- nobody gives you points for it.
# Posted on October 24th 2008 by Hup
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Huh? I can't find anything in Dow's posts that describes a non-standard roll on fiddle. I must be misunderstanding you, Hup.
But bear in mind: there's almost always more than one right way to play this music, but there are also many wrong ways to play it.
E.g., I've seen and heard really good Irish fiddlers cut a first finger roll with middle, ring, or fourth finger. I rarely use middle myself for such a cut, but routinely use either ring or fourth finger to do both percussive and melodic rolls. They sound "right" either way.
The fact that I've also heard fiddlers annihilate rolls by cutting with the same fingers doesn't mean the technique itself is wrong. It's their execution that's the problem.
# Posted on October 24th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I can't find anything in my posts that describes a roll at all. I was describing how you do the cut part of a roll by interrupting the rolling note.
# Posted on October 24th 2008 by Dow
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
before I get started, (I've not listened to the clip yet, a bit busy) it's worth clearing up that while every instrument has its own articulations specific to it, the roll we speak of is exactly the same on the fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle (with the exception of open strings and all holes covered etc). There are not fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle versions of the roll. A roll is a roll.
so spoke Micheal Gill.
just another example of this mans ignorance,whistle players do have to use different notes for their rolls[check out Geraldine Cotters whistle tutor]AN E Roll is eaede,a fiddler would not play an e roll thus,but would play it e f# e de,an a roll is a c#a g e ,a fiddler most often plays abaga.
Micheal Gills post tell us much about himself.
now in conversations over the years,with other English concertina players,including Alistair Anderson,I have discussed fiddle style rolls,and how thay are played on the english concertina,the general consensus is that there is an emphasis on the first note and that the notes used to cut are on the opposite sideof the instrument to the main note.[as played in my clip]
so an English concertina player could play a whistle type roll on the e,or a fiddle type roll.
I stipulate in my tutor that my way is not the only way,but I happen to know it is very similiar to Alistair Andersons approach.
Alistair Anderson is a player I rate highly,and I take more notice of his opinion than MichealGill,and although he now specialises in Northumbrian music,he has recorded irish tunes very successfully.
I repeat ,Articulation is used on both the banjo and the Concertina,despiteGills suggestions to the contrary.
Concertina rolls and accordion rolls[even when using the same notes] will always sound different to fiddle rolls,but that is not a reason for not doing them.
concertina rolls on the anglo comncertina can vary too,it is possible to do fiddle style rolls to some extent,or to do what Edel Fox does[which is different again].
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Secondly:
I want to take the bloke's fingers, strap 'em into a vice and smack 'em with a feckin lump hammer. The feckin useless git
so spoke MichealGill.
well, I would like to take a fecking lump hammer and smash it in your mouth.
if you got to my my space you will see remarks their from players like Tim Edey,praising my playing.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
11 Oct 2008 22:18
Hi Dick
I saw ya many years ago at Broadstairs folk club in Kent and always remember your great songs and concertina playing. I spend alot of my time in Dingle these days so not too far from yourself
hope we meet one day again tim edey
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
"whistle players do have to use different notes for their rolls[check out Geraldine Cotters whistle tutor]AN E Roll is eaede,a fiddler would not play an e roll thus,but would play it e f# e de,an a roll is a c#a g e ,a fiddler most often plays abaga."
Sorry dickens, that's just not accurate. Whistle can easily play eaede OR e f# e de and both of the A variants too, not to mention various others. Tutors books should not be taken as gospel.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by bogman
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
p.s. I'm not taking sides here but the whistle is not a good instrument to compare to a concertina when it comes to rolls as the flexibility for rolls is one of the whistles strengths.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by bogman
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Besides, most Irish fiddlers I know would almost always play an e roll by playing eaede--precisely the pattern dickens says they don't. Goofy.
Every time someone plays a "wrong" tap or cut, a faerie dies....
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Or egede
And I assume we're talking about EAEDE or EGEDE anyway, not the upper octave.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I am talking about e on the d string,all the irish fiddlers I know play it e f# e d e,or egede,the following tutors confirm this: Matt Crannitch,and Paul Mcnevin.
I have not encountered any Irish fiddlers,here in ireland who roll eaede,because it leaves the fiddler with two unfavourable options,using the litle finger[or open string] for the a .
you may do it differently in America,
but I have never met a fiddler here in Ireland who rolls EAEDE.
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Oisin MacDiarmada often plays his first finger rolls that way, for one.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Regardless, the point isn't what notes you cut and tap with, but the general premise of cutting with a note above and tapping with a note below. It really doesn't matter which finger you use in the percussive style of roll because you don't let the pitch sound--it's just an interruption of the string or air flow.
Timing and a sense of pulse is what makes it a roll and not some muddy mulligan of noise.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
''percussive style of roll ''
Herein lies the crux of the matter, Mr llig seems to think there is but one way to roll, which is a exactly the same on fiddle whistle and pipes.
It is clear is it not that he is simply incorrect. We have discovered numerous variants of the roll, as performed on different instrument.
Even on the fiddle, there are 2 clearly different rolls. the percussive type with a 3 beat, and the old style, with a 5 beat. Llig seems to simply be ignorant of the older style, So if it doesn't fit withing his concept of right, it must be wrong. Well Mr Gill, not only are you foul mouthed but an ignoramus as well.
His comment earlier, was exceedingly offensive The most unpleasant and objectionable thing I have seen on this forum, I am astounded that those comments have not been remarked upon, or deleted and he has not been banned.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Maire O'Keefe showed me an open string roll where you cut with the 4th then the 1st finger.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by airport
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Ionannas, I routinely use both types of rolls on fiddle and flute. The percussive roll is the same on either instrument, and the more even, open roll is the same on each instrument.
I think of both of them having a 5 count, but I suspect that's just a semantic difference in how we're talking about it, and we do mean the same thing.
Of course, winds can also do types of rolls that fiddles can't and vice versa. But that doesn't nullify the ability to do essentially identical rolls.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I don't think it's helpful to hang the crux of an argument on something you assume I think. And then in the next sentence to say that I am wrong to think what you assume I think.
Of course there is not one roll. And neither is there only two. James Kelly's marvellous playing in particular is splendid testament to this. But all these rolls (excepting the side issue of the specific notes) are the same on the fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes. And there are, of course, other percussive things made to sound much like fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes rolls designed for other instruments incapable of fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes rolls.
It is unfortunate that Dickens is still hung up on the side issue of which specific notes to use. It's unclear why he doesn't hear that it's in the timing. All his quotes of what rolls are are from books, and this may have something to do with him not hearing it. Conjecture.
I don't think it's helpful to describe what rolls are. Much better to give examples. But then that can backfire, as we've seen here.
And I don't think that being a little "foul mouthed" is helpful either. But then nothing on this thread is ever going to help anyone, so I might as well be honest about how I feel about it. As said, at the very least, it's revealing. I care about the music,
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
let us also remember that how rolls are played by fiddlers varies as well,some like to emphasise the first note more than others there is no right way,some like to use different notes to cut the main note,for example some fiddlers might play a b roll ,b d b a b,some prefer bc#bab.
I find it much easier to use four note ornamentation more like a banjo or a fiddler trebling bc# bb or b bc#b, or to get apipey sound b low e b b all of which is acceptable..
micheal gill, this is what I said in my earlier post,
I demonstrated a fiddle style roll,on the concertina just to show that it is possible,the point is that there is an emphasis on the first note but this will vary from player to player,the other important point,is that on the English concertina,the easiest thing to do is to cut on the opposite side[note used is not so important,but I prefer note above and note below]others may prefer different notes.
it is aload of crap to suggest that Idont listen to other musicians,but get my ideas purely from written music,I do both.
in fact my favourite ornamentations are not rolls,but single grace notes /and four note ornamentaion and octave triplets and four note pipey effects e [lowb]ee.hence there are no rolls used on my reels on you tube,and not much on my jigs on either sound lantern or you tube.
but since you made the provocative and trolling /flaming statement,that rolls and articulation were not possible on the concertina and the banjo,i felt duty bound to reply.
Edel Fox,uses a d roll which goes thus, a d then[high d] b d d ,or something very similiar.
incidentally, she said to me lovely playing on an english concertina[and I have a roomful of witnesses].
Ienclose an interview with SimonThoumire
Posted 15 August 2005
Playing the English Concertina—My Technique
Simon Thoumire
simon@scottishtraditionalmusic.com
How did your technique come about?
I think it came right from the start when Edinburgh player Tom Ward got me the 48 key wooden ended Lachenal. He didn't teach, but he gave me a copy of Alistair Anderson's beginners instruction book "Concertina Work Shop" and I taught myself from there. As far as I can remember, there were no pictures in the book to show how the instrument should be held, so, instead of holding it straight down with the buttons going horizontal to my leg in what I later learned was the conventional manner, I started off holding it at an angle of 90 degrees so my hands were quite far up. Six months later, when I got my 56 key Wheatstone Æola, I got into the habit of holding it with my hands at 45 degrees, probably because it was a heavier instrument. Also, I decided to not use the pinky holders because I felt that it was really restrictive and stopped me getting down to the notes.
Nowadays I still hold the concertina at around 45 degrees, and with the thumb straps loosening over time and being really wide, I can move my hands up and down the key board instead of just my fingers. As a result, I can play right down the bottom end of my 56 key instrument with my index and middle fingers. I don't use my third finger that much on the left-hand side of the concertina. I think this came about as the result of constantly practicing "rolls" with only my index and middle fingers. I do use my third finger if I'm playing an F natural to F sharp (that's the F's above middle C on the left hand). I'll use the middle finger to the third finger for a grace note. But other than that, if I'm not doing some sort of chromatism, I find not using the third finger a really good thing, because it doesn't get in the way. Of course, I do use the third finger if I'm doing chords, but that's a different thing entirely. My right hand is using normal fingering, i.e.using all three fingers. Although, if I'm doing a roll on the far right, I would still use my index and middle finger, But that's more out of laziness because I never spent time working out my rolls on my middle and third finger. What I find about the conventional technique of the concertina going parallel with the leg is that it really restricts getting down to the lower notes quickly. And the whole thing of having to bend the index finger right down to the bottom notes of the instruments is very hard to do. Basically, my technique works for me insofar as it gives me greater flexibility and full command of the keyboard.
What has come out of using this technique?
When I was very young, I remember going along to a workshop taken by Scottish concertina player Norman Chalmers. He was talking about concertina players who do "rolls" just using their index and middle fingers. It was the first time I had heard this and it fascinated me. I think he was actually talking about Anglo players but I misheard and took the idea home to start work on. It is now quite at the centre of my technique. It is very rhythmical and gives me a choice of different styles. It can be legato or staccato and, it is great for playing rhythms.
I am particularly interested in lightness of playing. When I play my bellows I will get in 8 octaves of G, up and down on the one bellow without loss of clarity. I think this is because I have worked hard to develop very good bellows pressure. I feel the bellows pressure in my left hand (I hold the concertina on my right knee and I pull out with my left hand) and I would describe my control of the bellows as very steady and very light. I'm not really into bellows shakes because I feel it takes away a bit from the player's control of the instrument. For example, pulling out the bellows, the control is in the left hand and not in the bellows. I can play fast or slow, accelerate or decelerate, always being in total control of what's going on. It is very effective in, for example, slow airs or adding vibrato. It's all about bellows work.
I am often asked about octave playing. It is one of the things I've developed in my playing to allow me to get different sounds. If I am playing in a scale of G starting above middle C on the left hand, I can play the octave below (at the same time) all the way up and down without thinking about it . Basically my right hand is mimicking what the left hand does (and vice versa). In other words, anything that I do in the middle octave around middle C, I can duplicate with the other hand. So, if I'm playing in a scale of A major I find it very easy to play the octave above or below without thinking about it - the hand just seems to go there. Working in inverse (as it seems) does not perhaps sound obvious or natural, but in a way that's not what's happening, because the hands are still moving in the same direction. It gives a very nice effect as well—using bellows control and a little bit of vibrato moving up the scale and octaves in intervals of thirds and fifths. Also, the octave thing can be in any interval, so moving up the keyboard in thirds or sevenths or flat ninths or whatever, is actually quite fun.
When I was very young my dad played a lot of jazz in the house and I was very interested in making my music swing. To get the effect I was looking for, I started to "dot" everything, like a fast hornpipe. Then, through listening to musicians like Louis Armstrong, The Hot Five, and Johnny Dodds etc. it came to me how to swing the music. Swing exists on the second and fourth beats of the bar, unlike a lot of traditional music which is played on the first and third beats. So now, when I play a reel, I'm quite conscious that I'm playing the rhythm on the second and fourth beat (which is termed as playing on the up beat of the bar). I'm controlling this with the bellows—playing little pushes and pulls.
The other thing about my technique is that it allows me to play very fast—while not sounding too fast(!). There are so many fast tunes and jigs as well as the beautiful slow airs in the celtic repertoire (as you will hear on my CD The Big Day In), so to be able to play them requires good technique and loads of practice.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I'm very familiar with Simon's playing and I've never heard him play a roll. What he's talking about here is his trademark shotgun triplet thing. He does it by "rolling" his fingers across the button. You can call it what you like.
Do you not play rolls on your reels because you can't?
I would like to hear what you refer to as a roll from Edel Fox. As I've always said, I keep an open mind, and although I'm of the opinion that you can't play rolls on a concertina, if anyone can change my mind, it will be her.
(and I'm happy for you that most people are more polite than I)
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I occasionally use short rolls in reels[two grace notescutting before and after],on a dotted crotchet.
and long rolls on a dotted crotchet in jig time.
but I think other forms of ornamentation preferable.
however on occasions I do use them
I prefer to use other forms of ornamentation,my favourite being four note trebles in jigs,generally playing note above,and using two different rhythms,turning either the first or the second quaver into two semiquavers
I also use octave triplets, triplets,modal chord triplets,single grace notes,octave doubles.double stops and octaves
two note,doubles,on same note,but playing the first one like a grace note,which i do by rolling two fingers across the button.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I'd like to invite you all over for some fresh baked rolls. I have fresh ground coffee too.
No tea though, you'll have to BYOT.
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Micheal Gill also said,you cant articulate on the banjo and the concertina.
if this is not a flaming/ trolling remark,then nothing is,I can only conclude that he is a personal friend of Jeremys,and so is allowed to do and say anything.
look if you want to hear edel fox play aroll, listen on youtube,Ihavent got time for thiscrap .
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I never said that. I said that certain articulations available to you on the fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle, certain articulations particular to Irish music, are not available to you on the concertina and banjo.
Does anyone dispute this?
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I can't speak for old-timey, I'm not interested in it. And I can't speak for how easy either is, it's irrelevant. But for Irish diddley music, there is very little you can't do on the flute that you can do on the fiddle, and vice versa.
Yes, concertinas and banjos and piano accordions, etc, are on a second tier, because they are not capable of the required articulations. But the flute? No way. The flute is the tops, the essence, the business of the music
.thats what you said,now stop wasting time,they are capable of the required articulations.
you are a flaming troll
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Where did I say you "can't" articulate on the banjo and the concertina?
That thread you quoted from above was about someone suggesting the flute was not as versatile as the fiddle. Of course the simple system flute is not as versatile as the fiddle, But this is not the case with Irish music, because they share the ability to perform the many necessary articulations. Other instruments articulate in different ways
Does anyone dispute this?
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I'm getting a little tired of hearing banjos being referred to as "second-tier" instruments; how the h*ll did they get all the way up there
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Rick Payman
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Rick, I think banjos are second tier because you have to toss them from at least that high up to really do any damage to the things....
# Posted on October 29th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Cheers Will, it's all becoming clearer now...
A young girl showed up early at our session this evening with her Dad, asking who the banjo players were. Now this girl has been to the session before playing fiddle, not half badly as I recall; turns out she wants to learn the banjo because of it's sound - go figure...
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by Rick Payman
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Matt Molloy
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=18349
re the begining of the first time through the second part of the first tune.
# Posted on October 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
a more appropriate place to play a melodic roll/turn on the concertina,could be a slower O Carolan pIece.
OCarolan was influenced by baroque musicians,and approved of the use of the turn.
and no I am not going to demonsrate it,Idont have the time to waste on this rubbish.
[.A young girl showed up early at our session this evening with her Dad, asking who the banjo players were. Now this girl has been to the session before playing fiddle, not half badly as I recall; turns out she wants to learn the banjo because of it's sound - go figure...]
I am not surprised that people should want to learn the banjo,it is an instrument with great drive,and unlike the simple system flute,can play the full range of notes,needed for traditional music,that doesnt make it better, just different,to put instruments into a tiers system is puerile/ childish,and starts to introduce a competitive feel between instruments.
any instrument that allows people to make music is good.end of story
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
You don't think that the simple system flute has the full range of notes needed for traditional Irish music?
Did you listen to that clip of Matt Molloy?
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I did ,very nice too,but the ornament was not a roll,it was a four note twiddle,a long roll SLOW ROLL or turn consists of five notes..
the simple systyem flute as I understand it [plesae correct me if Iam wrong, Iam not a flute player]has afew notes at the bottom end range of the violin,that are missing.[or is it that they are difficult to play]
is it possible to play the home ruler on the simple system flute flute,playing all the bottom notes?
# Posted on October 31st 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Right oh ... If this whole thread has been hanging on a mere semantic misunderstanding, I'll eat my fiddle, and wash it down with the fecking lump hammer.
Let's start again ...
You can't play slow rolls - the very common form of articulation used in Irish traditional music (re the example posted above) - on a concertina. (Dickens calls them four note twiddles, but it's of no consequesnce what either of us call them)
Agree or disagree?
If agree, example please?
(ps. http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/310 and do you really honestly think that the flute and the pipes do not have what is "needed" to play Irish music because they can't go below the bottom D?)
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Sorry, I meant, if you think you can, examples please.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Don't know why I skipped over this thread when it was posted a week ago (possibly because I anticipated a discussion that was upwards of 90% p*ssing match - don't know where I could have gotten that idea, really) - however -
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19506/comments#comment407921
...if anyone could explain to me the difference between a cut and a tap, why, I'd be much obliged.
-TD&M, who's apparently been doing short rolls all wrong
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Grab your tinwhistle ~
cut > play a single note, swiftly raise&lower a single finger (above the lowest covered hole), that's it
tap (strike) > play a single note, switly uncover&cover the hole directly below the lowest covered hole.
Same on flutes.
Pipes are the same, though they are a tricky lot.
Fiddlers are really tricky. I have no idea how they do a cut. Taps must be similar to flute/whistle/pipes.
So when all else fails, TD &M, keep a tinwhistle handy.
I too did not follow the above thread. But check out the 'locomotive analogy' about what to do with the cuts & taps you just mastered;
Tin whistle: cuts and taps....
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1703/comments#comment29677
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Random_notes
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Thanks; I don't have any tin whistles, but i have a pair of ocarinas and the principles are similar.
And for the most part, as far as ornaments/articulations go, where wind players lift a finger, fiddlers put one down, and vice versa. Not too complicated, really....
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
There is another way to do a cut than what I described. cover&uncover the lowest covered hole.
Slightly different effect..
I just don't know how a fiddler can do a cut above & a cut below.
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Random_notes
* recovery
sorry > uncover&recover
# Posted on November 1st 2008 by Random_notes
Visiting hours are over ~
Shhhhhh! Sorry, I didn't see that catheter. I'll tell the nurse, on my way out, that I tucked you all in for the night and left the night light on. Would you like him to bring you some hot milk and cinammon? I'll ask him stop in to check your pulses in the next hour or so... Some of you don't look so good...
~ 
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Thanks for the description Random. Yes that's it. And it's exactly the same on the fiddle
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Llig, I wonder, you seem congenitally unable to see the fallacies in your argument. Blindly defying reason. You seem to lack the basic understanding of the word exact for example.
Is there any point in discussing anything with you when you seem unable to concede a point? Rolls differ, on the various instruments ,in their rhythms, in the notes used. and even by the same player on different instruments. So tell me, how can you say they are exactly the same when they clearly are not?
It appears to me that you seem to be saying , in your argument, that a roll is exactly the same as a roll. without reference to the actual things themselves, which vary considerably.
You seem to have an understanding of rolls that is cyclical; A roll is only a roll if you say it is a roll. Can you not see, from your own comment above that Dickens roll as played on the link, is a roll by your own definition? note , note above, note, note below, note. ...' exactly the same'.
Perhaps you do have a rational argument that does not consist of ' because I said so' I would be interested in hearing it.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
This is where I say ~ w/all due respect
llig you need to listen to Matt Molloy more closely. Different!
Fiddlers have talents I do not understand, Good ones are able to emulate the sound you get from say a cran on flute or pipes.
For the most part flutes have certain articulations which fiddles have to do differently.
On the other hand fiddlers play articulations which flutes do not have.
The recent discussions about Doherty's bowing.
Anything along those lines flutes or box players will try to mimic. But at some point one has to get creative.
Viva La Diférence!
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by Random_notes
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Nowhere have I not embraced the many many ways of playing rolls. Yes, viva La diférence, But don't underestimate the power of unison, and the very important learning hurdle of copying your betters.
A roll maybe the note, note above, note, note below, note, but that is not what defines in. The definition is in the timing. But anyway, I'm not interested in the definition any more, the whole semantic argument is impossible to resolve. You can call what ever you want a roll. is doesn't matter. Dickens calls his note, note above, note, note below, note on his clip a roll, and he calls Matt Molloy's roll a four note twiddle. It doesn't matter. It's utterly irrelevant
What matters is that that sound, that very very common sound in Irish music, that is exampled by Matt Molloy on the clip I posted is done exactly the same on the fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes. It sounds exactly the same on the fiddle, flute, whistle and pipes. I don't believe it can be done on a concertina. But I would love to be proved wrong.
I'm not interested in the argument of "'cause I said so". Please please prove me wrong. Show me.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
While it is true that dickens is playing all the notes for a roll - it does not sound like a roll. The timing is shot and it sounds wrong.
# Posted on November 2nd 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
To be honest ~ I do not want to be here. TD&M helped get me into this mess.
Michael, your last post is correct ~ if you get the sound of a long roll (on fiddle) similar to the way I hear it on flute . . .or more precisely the way someone like Matt Molloy hears it (better ears), then that (the sound) is the real deal. No bones about it.
I do not play fiddle & simply do not know 'how' you articulate on fiddle.* That is O.K.
The sound (including timing) is what's relevant
I am back. again. because you mentioned a clip of Matt Molloy. Which now I have to go find because it is Matt Molloy & . . . when I made the comment (about listening more closely to MM) I did not know you had included a clip, Not surprised though,
Cheers!
* I do not know how you ornament/ articulate in order to produce the same effect (sound) as on flute. There are subtleties for any instrument.
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by Random_notes
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Thanks random. Yeah, the thing is, you get the same sound on the fiddle by doing exactly the same thing that you do on the flute. You articulate in exactly the same way ... brief interruptions of the note, above and below.
And that clip of Matt Molloy is truly sublime. He has the reputation of overdoing it, but you can't say that of these jigs. Very very simple and sublime, and the timing is so beautiful
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
I have the clip now.
Thanks!
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by Random_notes
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
While it is true that dickens is playing all the notes for a roll - it does not sound like a roll. The timing is shot and it sounds wrong.
the timing is not shot[what Iam playing is a turn[classical terminology]or a roll[as Micheal Coleman would have played it].
there is an emphasis on the first part of the roll as I believe there should be.
wrong,wrong.[ha ha ha]
I love people who pontificate about what is right and wrong.,
carry on, standardise everything.
[He has the reputation of overdoing it,]quote micheal gill.
what reputation,more session bullsh*t,why cant you just say his playing is good,you carping back biter.
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Dickens - I am not having a go at you in the slightest. It just doesnt sound exactly what I think of when I think of a roll. If you like it then go for it, play the way you want.
# Posted on November 3rd 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Don't go back to the semantic argument, it's of no consequence now that I asked for an Irish sounding roll and you astonishingly missinterpreted me and gave me a classical turn. Get over it.
Matt Moolloy is my favourite musician. I dissagree with some peoples' opinion that he over does it. Do you want me to say he "is" the best? Do you want me to say his playing "is" good? I'm not going to take your bait and pontificate on what "is" right.
However, I stand do stand with baited breath and the lump hammer on by plate ... Is it possible to reproduce that very very common sound in Irish music, that is exampled by Matt Molloy on the clip I posted?
# Posted on November 4th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Sorry, my typing goes awry when I'm being goaded ....
I do stand with baited breath and the lump hammer on by plate, knife and fork at the ready ... Is it possible to reproduce that very very common sound in Irish music, that is exampled by Matt Molloy on the clip I posted, on the concertina?
If yes, examples please.
# Posted on November 4th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
BB
.I said that I only use rolls/Turns occassionally,
I gave detailed descriptions of the ornamentation I use,and what I prefer.
Gill,I would rather you said nothing at all.
as far as Iam concerned, and here we will have to disagree,a classical turn and a roll are one and the same.
if its good enough for Coleman its good enough for me.
# Posted on November 4th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Concertinas in symphony?
# Posted on November 4th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
You don't think the timing is different?
Do you think that your clip is the same timing as Michael Coleman's rolls?
# Posted on November 4th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Some good stuff here. A lttle more eratic than Matt Molloy, but lovely all the same. It's dificult for anyone to compare it with Dickens now his clip is removed.
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=18853
# Posted on November 4th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
still hilarious
# Posted on November 4th 2008 by pavlf
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=3527.
Micheal hope you enjoy this,not sure its what you are looking for,but good concertina playing and flute playing,ftrom Paul Davis
# Posted on November 4th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
shame about the piano player,the recording would be better without her.,but Colemans playing is excellent,bear in mind it was probably first take,and no editing.
llig,it is good manners to credit your sources,presumably you have permission?
# Posted on November 4th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Its a pity Dickens removed his exposition on concertina rolls from soundlantern.com
I hope its been archived somewhere for posterity.
# Posted on November 4th 2008 by dogbox
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Comments
Playing rolls on a DG box
Playing rolls on a DG box
Have any of the DG box players among you worked out how to successfully play rolls - and which notes are best suited for rolls on the instrument?
I've experimented with rolling some notes on the G row without much progress, so I'm hoping others have fared better. I'm ok with ornamenting using cross-row triplets and some single-note triplets. The different arrangement of notes on the DG means I'll never reproduce the sound of rolls on a chromatic box, but I'll still try ...
Are there any commercial videos or dvds on irish chromatic box techniques you've seen that explained rolls in a way that was transferrable to the DG box?
thanks, Ian
# Posted on April 5th 2007 by dogbox .
# Posted on November 5th 2008 by anon
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Flipin heck, dicky ickey whicky pickens, I think I'd rather stab myself straight in between my ears with a rusty barbecue skewer than have to listen to that clip again.
However, in the interests of not allowing my taste to interfere with the conversation at hand ... There were no rolls.
# Posted on November 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
Hahhaa - Michael - you just made my day...thanks!
# Posted on November 5th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: slow rolls and articulation on the concertina
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/19215/commenPrhttp://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/19215/commenPr
now, that is funny.
# Posted on November 5th 2008 by anon