I was at a TIM session last night where the only instruments were fiddles, a flute, tin whistles and a recorder.. There were no guitars and only one bodhran (the pub owner was playing the drum and providing the drinks).
Although I had my mandolin with me and knew many of the players, I declined to join them when asked because the tunes were being played "wicked" fast. And I felt I could not keep up with the playing and making chords changes to the fast tempo being new to the mandolin.
But as I sat there enjoying the tunes and listening to the better players, I wondered where do mandolins fit in. Have they always been a part of TIM? Or are they a late bloomer or an adder like guitars? Are they ever played as a background instrument?
Mandolins are new to Trad so there isn't really a well defined role. There does seem to be a consensus, however, that the chop chords used in Bluegrass are not acceptable. I think most mando players are like me and play melody parralleling as closely as possible what would be done on the fiddle.
They've been around in the English and Scottish folk revivals from early on, and I believe Andy Irvine played it with Planxty.
Trouble with mandolins in sessions is that they're easily drowned out - if the mandolinist wants to be heard, other musicians must consciously give him a "space" and quieten down a bit, playing into his music.
I associate the instrument with Italy. I wonder whether there was any crossover between Italian and Irish immigrant music in early c20 America, encouraging Irish musos to take up the mandolin. But I'd imagine its use in ITM is a postwar folk revival thing, as with the guitar.
Just a comment about mandos not being heard. It's the A style mando that's used in Irish sessions. But the A style doesn't project as well as an F style. Further you can experiment with strings and picks to get more volume.
A friend who is an incredible mandolin, banjo and guitar player gave me a pick he thought was the best for both mando and guitar. When ever he talks, I listen. BUT I only like it for guitar. On mandolin it has no volume. I prefer a larger triangular pick about .9 to 1 mm for a sound that actually can be heard.
I switched from guitar and bought an A style- oval sound hole mandolin to learn how to play melodies.
I don't know that a F style mandolin is any louder than an A style one. But I believe a F sound hole mandolin is louder and cuts through the din better than an oval hole instrument. However, I like the look of an oval sound hole instrument better.
My goal is to be able to play a few tunes on the mandolin by April and buy an octave mandolin.
Fair play to Parlor Boyle for NOT sitting in 'coz it was too fast. Nothin' spoils a session more than speed (or yer average bodhran-basher. Bodhran = Ir (v) a deafener,
As to mandolins. I use a 1920 Gibson A and sometimes a new traveling /navy mandolin. I use a jazz-guitarists pleck and can be heard above most sessions ( I know this from recordings)
As to whether or not they're new/fitting. I recommend my adult pupils to play one (IF they're unsure of which insturment they want) as they can see both hands at once ( an annoying combersome habit that is comforting to learners but only adds to curvature of the spine.)
Mandolin bands were popular in Co Waterford around 1920 and just like there are pockets of fiddles/concertinas there were/are pockets of mandolins too. In the 1780's mandolins and guitars were becoming so popular that a keyboard maker - Jacob Kirkman- gave cheap versions to street urchins and street drunks. This persuaded the "ladies" to return to (his) keyboards. In Europe there were frequent serious riots by fans over their favourite lutanists.
Peter
TIP; I find it easier to play box tunes on the mandolin as opposed to flute/fiddle tunes esp reels. Not sure why.
Oh Forgot to add I play tunes, I might "vamp" along for a few bars but only if the session is secure and there's at least one sound player. Otherwise it can put people off.
P
I concur with the decision not to join in as everything was played too fast. You won't get anything from a session where you are constantly racing to catch up.
As to mandolins fitting in. Yes they can be quiet. There are several ways round this. An extreme one might be one of the resonator mandos now on sale; however some might find the tone a bit raucous. Much the same comment applies for a banjo-mandolin. I always recommend a couple of modifications to a standard mandolin; a Red-Henry-pattern bridge and a heavier tailpiece will improve volume and tone on most mandolins, both A- and F-model instruments.
Red Henry came up with a series of improved bridge designs when he figured that it was only the bridge of F-model mandolins that took nothing from fiddle design, and wondered if that extra piece of work would boost tone and volume. Anyone with a bit of practical handymanship can make their own at home - I'm on about No. 10 on my 'zouk.
Of course, you might also just have to pick the thing harder !
I love the mandolin, but it's not easy, and it't not very loud, and its hard to get a trad feel.
I changed to the fiddle in the end, which is also hard! But for me it has a lot more depth. I don't want to be negative, but think about it! After a few months, sessions got to be more fun with a fiddle.
hey man. personally i love the mandolin. i think it has a soft sound and there's often a mandolin player at my thursday night session in galway which adds a great sound. i think they definitely have a great place in the irish music scene. can alec fin play it?
also, irrelevant (or not?), but captain correlli's mandolin is an insightful on the mandolin book and it's a very respected instrument in greece!
The mandolin is best playing melody, but cannot be heard, hence the switch to the banjo, or even the dreaded banjo-mandolin.
I have played mandolin for years, slow airs and accompanying ballads, as it has a lovely tone.
I first heard one on a Dubliners record, with Sheehan and McKenna doing a mandolin duet on "Roisin Dubh", which caught my attention and I bought one of them. That was before Andy Irvine popularised its use.
If you are playing backing chords, get the octave mandola as you yourself suggested, Parlor.
I play backing chords on my mando quite often. As someone mentioned above choppy, bluegrass style chords don't work so well, but I have found that strumming and back-picking (similar to DADGAD style guitar) works quite well.
I played mandolin when i first started in sessions. It was a good sized instrument (easy to carry around) and was great for leaning tunes on... altho I quickly found out that i couldn't even hear myself play when a session got cranking.
I switched to fiddle not long after that... but sometimes play my Octave Mandolin in sessions which has a much larger sound.
There is some info on the Mando in ITM (And other cultures)here:
I try to switch between melody and chords depending on what the song/tune calls for. In my band, I tend to play chords on the songs (and yes, I occasionally "chop"), and play melody on the tunes. Sometimes I'll do a chord/melody mix. We have a guitar, fiddle, and accordion in our band so I'm free to jump around wherever I think I'll fit in. I tend to play melody whenever I can because our guitar play uses a guitar with 6 too many strings and it tends to drown out the mando.
hey Parlor, you know what would have sounded great at that session? A Trinity College Octave Mandolin. Black top with a hard case. (oh, and did I mention I have one for sale?)
Like any instrument, if played well it fits nicely. Personally I prefer the flat-picking over chords on the mandolin (unless you're going for that bluegrass feel!)
"Captain Corelli's Mandolin" is certainly a page-turner - I've read it - but it didn't go down well with a lot of people in Greece, I gather. The Communist resistance to the Axis, portrayed as absolute ogres in the book, was a lot more popular and grass-roots, pro-active in fighting the occupation, and considerate in its dealings with the civilian population than the novel suggests (I'm going on "Inside Hitler's Greece" by Mark Mazower, pub. in the 1990s.) Right-wing squads mobilised by the Nazis and puppet governments had a consistently more brutal track record in the latter respect.
Both sides fought a cruel and possibly avoidable civil war after WW2. The right wing, with many WW2 death squad members and active collaborationists in its ranks, was backed to the hilt by Britain and America against the Red Peril until it was discredited by the fall of the military junta in 1974. Ex-WW2 Communist resisters were killed, persecuted or exiled, and their version of things suppressed.
Now that this period is slipping away into the distant past and its protagonists fading away, some Greeks at any rate want to sort out the facts from the mythologies and bring some sort of domestic closure. "CC'sM" was very unhelpful to this, asset-stripping this ghastly time in Greek history for its sensational potential and giving a skewed narrative to the widest possible audience.
Thank you for all your replies - most appreciated.
I plan to use my new oval hole mandolin as a means of learning tunes and as a stepping stone to a new octave mandolin come Spring. I own a very rare !924 Gibson Tenor Lure (TL) tuned GDAD but no longer take it to sessions.
The mandolin is a way of continuing to be part of local sessions playing chords and flat picking tunes as I learn them but at a lower sound level.
I love the music and respect the session etiquette as a "Struggler". Making new friendships, having a free pint on the house. learning tunes are all part of being a player at a TIM session. Hopefully, the new mandolin will increase that enjoyment for me.
The A style mandolin should not be underestimated for backing tunes, favouring the lower end of the instrument, as a
fiddle player might utilise double stopping on the lower part of the fiddle, steering clear of the bluegrass chop, keeping the rhythm loose and elastic. I think the mandolins register
and lack of volume is a help rather than a hindrance in this
role, although its only the cheap ones that you can't hear in a session.
Since it is usually tuned same range as fiddle, mando can really strengthen the melodic line. Keep ornamentation to a mininum. Tremelo (repeatedly picking one note) helps to accent the intrinsic rhythm of the tune on dance tunes, and can be very pretty on airs.
When there is no guitar or zouk at session, the mando can provide a good pulse by playing the root notes on the first of the measure, then the fifth and/or the melody as it sails by.
The "hearability" of the mando is directly affected by the harmonic density of the backing instruments. As a plucked instrument, it is producing waveforms similar to the guitar, banjo and bouzouki. When these instruments are putting out chords, especially three or more string ones, all those extra harmonics can cause literal cancellation of the sonic strength of the mando's sound. So if you play with chordally generous string players, ask them to play fewer strings (after getting them a pint).
One of my favorite sound combinations is mandolin and english concertina playing the melody in unison. The attack of the plucked string really emphasizes the tune, while the sustained sound of the free reed makes it sing.
I reckon they are played as a background instrument in groups but in solo I prefer melody- I'd say I mostly play melody, sometimes even in sessions regardless of whether it's heard or not
I usually just pick up the banjo (Which I prefer-It's tuned the same) and swap between them at a session
I can't understand anybody not being completly satisfied with a mandolin at any session. So what if you're not heard??
But switching to fiddle means getting a GOOD teacher to get the bowing RIGHT from the start. I've seen so many bad fiddlers(ie bad bowing) who started on mandolin first and then had a good left-hand and a very dodgy bow-hand that they never learned to control - as well. Shame.
But for God's sake avoid the dreaded banjo-mandolin. Yes it CAN be heard. and FU** all else.
Peter
Where do mandolins fit in?
Where do mandolins fit in?
I was at a TIM session last night where the only instruments were fiddles, a flute, tin whistles and a recorder.. There were no guitars and only one bodhran (the pub owner was playing the drum and providing the drinks).
Although I had my mandolin with me and knew many of the players, I declined to join them when asked because the tunes were being played "wicked" fast. And I felt I could not keep up with the playing and making chords changes to the fast tempo being new to the mandolin.
But as I sat there enjoying the tunes and listening to the better players, I wondered where do mandolins fit in. Have they always been a part of TIM? Or are they a late bloomer or an adder like guitars? Are they ever played as a background instrument?
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Cape Cod Struggler
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
Mandolins are new to Trad so there isn't really a well defined role. There does seem to be a consensus, however, that the chop chords used in Bluegrass are not acceptable. I think most mando players are like me and play melody parralleling as closely as possible what would be done on the fiddle.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by dlkes
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
They've been around in the English and Scottish folk revivals from early on, and I believe Andy Irvine played it with Planxty.
Trouble with mandolins in sessions is that they're easily drowned out - if the mandolinist wants to be heard, other musicians must consciously give him a "space" and quieten down a bit, playing into his music.
I associate the instrument with Italy. I wonder whether there was any crossover between Italian and Irish immigrant music in early c20 America, encouraging Irish musos to take up the mandolin. But I'd imagine its use in ITM is a postwar folk revival thing, as with the guitar.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
Just a comment about mandos not being heard. It's the A style mando that's used in Irish sessions. But the A style doesn't project as well as an F style. Further you can experiment with strings and picks to get more volume.
A friend who is an incredible mandolin, banjo and guitar player gave me a pick he thought was the best for both mando and guitar. When ever he talks, I listen. BUT I only like it for guitar. On mandolin it has no volume. I prefer a larger triangular pick about .9 to 1 mm for a sound that actually can be heard.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
"the pub owner was playing the drum and providing the drinks"
You see, if you pay for the drinks any instrument will "fit in"
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Johnny Jay
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
I switched from guitar and bought an A style- oval sound hole mandolin to learn how to play melodies.
I don't know that a F style mandolin is any louder than an A style one. But I believe a F sound hole mandolin is louder and cuts through the din better than an oval hole instrument. However, I like the look of an oval sound hole instrument better.
My goal is to be able to play a few tunes on the mandolin by April and buy an octave mandolin.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Cape Cod Struggler
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
Fair play to Parlor Boyle for NOT sitting in 'coz it was too fast. Nothin' spoils a session more than speed (or yer average bodhran-basher. Bodhran = Ir (v) a deafener,
As to mandolins. I use a 1920 Gibson A and sometimes a new traveling /navy mandolin. I use a jazz-guitarists pleck and can be heard above most sessions ( I know this from recordings)
As to whether or not they're new/fitting. I recommend my adult pupils to play one (IF they're unsure of which insturment they want) as they can see both hands at once ( an annoying combersome habit that is comforting to learners but only adds to curvature of the spine.)
Mandolin bands were popular in Co Waterford around 1920 and just like there are pockets of fiddles/concertinas there were/are pockets of mandolins too. In the 1780's mandolins and guitars were becoming so popular that a keyboard maker - Jacob Kirkman- gave cheap versions to street urchins and street drunks. This persuaded the "ladies" to return to (his) keyboards. In Europe there were frequent serious riots by fans over their favourite lutanists.
Peter
TIP; I find it easier to play box tunes on the mandolin as opposed to flute/fiddle tunes esp reels. Not sure why.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Peter O'Connor
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
Oh Forgot to add I play tunes, I might "vamp" along for a few bars but only if the session is secure and there's at least one sound player. Otherwise it can put people off.
P
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Peter O'Connor
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
I concur with the decision not to join in as everything was played too fast. You won't get anything from a session where you are constantly racing to catch up.
As to mandolins fitting in. Yes they can be quiet. There are several ways round this. An extreme one might be one of the resonator mandos now on sale; however some might find the tone a bit raucous. Much the same comment applies for a banjo-mandolin. I always recommend a couple of modifications to a standard mandolin; a Red-Henry-pattern bridge and a heavier tailpiece will improve volume and tone on most mandolins, both A- and F-model instruments.
Red Henry came up with a series of improved bridge designs when he figured that it was only the bridge of F-model mandolins that took nothing from fiddle design, and wondered if that extra piece of work would boost tone and volume. Anyone with a bit of practical handymanship can make their own at home - I'm on about No. 10 on my 'zouk.
Of course, you might also just have to pick the thing harder !
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
I love the mandolin, but it's not easy, and it't not very loud, and its hard to get a trad feel.
I changed to the fiddle in the end, which is also hard! But for me it has a lot more depth. I don't want to be negative, but think about it! After a few months, sessions got to be more fun with a fiddle.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by lestow
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
hey man. personally i love the mandolin. i think it has a soft sound and there's often a mandolin player at my thursday night session in galway which adds a great sound. i think they definitely have a great place in the irish music scene. can alec fin play it?
also, irrelevant (or not?), but captain correlli's mandolin is an insightful on the mandolin book and it's a very respected instrument in greece!
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by pamplemousse
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
The mandolin is best playing melody, but cannot be heard, hence the switch to the banjo, or even the dreaded banjo-mandolin.
I have played mandolin for years, slow airs and accompanying ballads, as it has a lovely tone.
I first heard one on a Dubliners record, with Sheehan and McKenna doing a mandolin duet on "Roisin Dubh", which caught my attention and I bought one of them. That was before Andy Irvine popularised its use.
If you are playing backing chords, get the octave mandola as you yourself suggested, Parlor.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
I play backing chords on my mando quite often. As someone mentioned above choppy, bluegrass style chords don't work so well, but I have found that strumming and back-picking (similar to DADGAD style guitar) works quite well.
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Nopstavon
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
I played mandolin when i first started in sessions. It was a good sized instrument (easy to carry around) and was great for leaning tunes on... altho I quickly found out that i couldn't even hear myself play when a session got cranking.
I switched to fiddle not long after that... but sometimes play my Octave Mandolin in sessions which has a much larger sound.
There is some info on the Mando in ITM (And other cultures)here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandolin#Ireland
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by davydd
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
I try to switch between melody and chords depending on what the song/tune calls for. In my band, I tend to play chords on the songs (and yes, I occasionally "chop"), and play melody on the tunes. Sometimes I'll do a chord/melody mix. We have a guitar, fiddle, and accordion in our band so I'm free to jump around wherever I think I'll fit in. I tend to play melody whenever I can because our guitar play uses a guitar with 6 too many strings and it tends to drown out the mando.
hey Parlor, you know what would have sounded great at that session? A Trinity College Octave Mandolin. Black top with a hard case. (oh, and did I mention I have one for sale?)
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by CleverName
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
Like any instrument, if played well it fits nicely. Personally I prefer the flat-picking over chords on the mandolin (unless you're going for that bluegrass feel!)
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by bdh
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
Where's Bren? His resonator mandolin is easily heard at a session and I quite like the sound. Brett get back to your studies lad!!
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Donough
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
"Captain Corelli's Mandolin" is certainly a page-turner - I've read it - but it didn't go down well with a lot of people in Greece, I gather. The Communist resistance to the Axis, portrayed as absolute ogres in the book, was a lot more popular and grass-roots, pro-active in fighting the occupation, and considerate in its dealings with the civilian population than the novel suggests (I'm going on "Inside Hitler's Greece" by Mark Mazower, pub. in the 1990s.) Right-wing squads mobilised by the Nazis and puppet governments had a consistently more brutal track record in the latter respect.
Both sides fought a cruel and possibly avoidable civil war after WW2. The right wing, with many WW2 death squad members and active collaborationists in its ranks, was backed to the hilt by Britain and America against the Red Peril until it was discredited by the fall of the military junta in 1974. Ex-WW2 Communist resisters were killed, persecuted or exiled, and their version of things suppressed.
Now that this period is slipping away into the distant past and its protagonists fading away, some Greeks at any rate want to sort out the facts from the mythologies and bring some sort of domestic closure. "CC'sM" was very unhelpful to this, asset-stripping this ghastly time in Greek history for its sensational potential and giving a skewed narrative to the widest possible audience.
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
Thank you for all your replies - most appreciated.
I plan to use my new oval hole mandolin as a means of learning tunes and as a stepping stone to a new octave mandolin come Spring. I own a very rare !924 Gibson Tenor Lure (TL) tuned GDAD but no longer take it to sessions.
The mandolin is a way of continuing to be part of local sessions playing chords and flat picking tunes as I learn them but at a lower sound level.
I love the music and respect the session etiquette as a "Struggler". Making new friendships, having a free pint on the house. learning tunes are all part of being a player at a TIM session. Hopefully, the new mandolin will increase that enjoyment for me.
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Cape Cod Struggler
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
The A style mandolin should not be underestimated for backing tunes, favouring the lower end of the instrument, as a
fiddle player might utilise double stopping on the lower part of the fiddle, steering clear of the bluegrass chop, keeping the rhythm loose and elastic. I think the mandolins register
and lack of volume is a help rather than a hindrance in this
role, although its only the cheap ones that you can't hear in a session.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
Since it is usually tuned same range as fiddle, mando can really strengthen the melodic line. Keep ornamentation to a mininum. Tremelo (repeatedly picking one note) helps to accent the intrinsic rhythm of the tune on dance tunes, and can be very pretty on airs.
When there is no guitar or zouk at session, the mando can provide a good pulse by playing the root notes on the first of the measure, then the fifth and/or the melody as it sails by.
The "hearability" of the mando is directly affected by the harmonic density of the backing instruments. As a plucked instrument, it is producing waveforms similar to the guitar, banjo and bouzouki. When these instruments are putting out chords, especially three or more string ones, all those extra harmonics can cause literal cancellation of the sonic strength of the mando's sound. So if you play with chordally generous string players, ask them to play fewer strings (after getting them a pint).
One of my favorite sound combinations is mandolin and english concertina playing the melody in unison. The attack of the plucked string really emphasizes the tune, while the sustained sound of the free reed makes it sing.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Dave McGrath
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
I reckon they are played as a background instrument in groups but in solo I prefer melody- I'd say I mostly play melody, sometimes even in sessions regardless of whether it's heard or not
I usually just pick up the banjo (Which I prefer-It's tuned the same) and swap between them at a session
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by jlocky
Re: Where do mandolins fit in?
I can't understand anybody not being completly satisfied with a mandolin at any session. So what if you're not heard??
But switching to fiddle means getting a GOOD teacher to get the bowing RIGHT from the start. I've seen so many bad fiddlers(ie bad bowing) who started on mandolin first and then had a good left-hand and a very dodgy bow-hand that they never learned to control - as well. Shame.
But for God's sake avoid the dreaded banjo-mandolin. Yes it CAN be heard. and FU** all else.
Peter
# Posted on October 28th 2008 by Peter O'Connor