I recently switched back to flute from fiddle for my primary instrument. Truthfully, I'm much more of a natural on the flute, and have been playing for far more years.
Anyhow, upon telling a fiddling friend of my decision, she responded with something slightly short of horror (she's an american old-timey player, not ITM) and exclaimed upon the limitations of the flute, as well as some implication that it's so much easier than the fiddle....
Now, perhaps it's just me, but in all my years of playing flute, it never occurred to me that it is either limited nor easy. It's certainly easier FOR ME than fiddle, but still not exactly simplistic. And certainly, I've always thought that the flute, especially in trad (ITM and also world-wide) music, had a huge range of possibilities and dynamics.
I can't speak for old-timey, I'm not interested in it. And I can't speak for how easy either is, it's irrelevant. But for Irish diddley music, there is very little you can't do on the flute that you can do on the fiddle, and vice versa.
Yes, concertinas and banjos and piano accordions, etc, are on a second tier, because they are not capable of the required articulations. But the flute? No way. The flute is the tops, the essence, the business of the music.
ahh, thanks llig... yes, I wasn't asking anyone to comment upon old-timey, but rather capability of the flute within ITM, which you have done admirably.
and upon thinking about it, I suppose that I agree that the level of ease or difficulty of playing any given instrument is very likely irrelevant to its importance and capacity within the music.
whew -- i'm trying to imagine noel hill playing a 'second tier' instrument, and it's hurting my brain. what's this need to rank things about, anyway?
that said, i think, when i sink into the sound, fine flute playing comes closer to the human voice than anything else, and is incredibly expressive and evocative.
I imagine the overall note range of a violin is greater than that of a simple-system flute, and that overall the violin lends itself more to playing in the scales outwith the D, G, A bunch, if the flute is a D one. Playing in some of these scales on a D simple-system has struck me as very difficult if not impossible, though maybe there are flute players here who find them a doddle.
But llig's right about the flute's being the business of Irish music. Every once in a while cultural history brings some blow-in to an environment remote from its origins where it is wildly suitable to local usages and no-one cares to imagine what life must have been like before it came. The coming of the simple-system flute to Irish trad can be compared in this respect to the arrival of the tomato to the cuisine of the Mediterranean.
Speaking as a poor excuse for a second-rate banjo player, could I please just second llig in saying that the flute & fiddle (IMHO) both represent the very essence of the music. The flute perhaps shares a similar allure to the Uilleann pipes.
Actually, why are even bothering to discuss this?; the music when played through a sympathetic medium 'speaks' for itself.
'tinamatt, I dunno if you were around for the previous discussion on the tiers of instruments in ITM, but if you weren't you might want to go dig it up. It's quite interesting, if possibly offensive to some/many (as per usual when llig starts a conversation).
good analogy nicholas LOL
I brought it up Rick, simply because I wondered if my own perceptions were a bit askew and am much appreciating the input of the people here. However, I agree that the music does very much speak for itself.
Agreed, a flute in the right hands is a wonderful thing.
But... what about double stops? And single bows versus slurs (flute always seems legato rather than staccato, and not by choice, if you get my drift). And pizzicato. And "Cat-sneeze triplets." Not to mention notes below D, as nicholas points out.
Yes, you can argue that some fiddle effects don't belong in Irish music--but it depends on how you define "Irish music" I think. And it's fair to point them out, if the topic is "limitations of an instrument."
I come from a wind instrument background but I have to say that flute
(and clarinet, oboe, bassoon, etc etc.) have just a fraction of the
expressive power of the fiddle --- in the right hands of course. Matt
Malloy can be more subtle than most on the wooden flute but can't
compare to what Martin Hayes, Tommy Peoples and others can get
out of a fiddle. Fiddle is also monstrously hard to play compared to
flute. The main technical challenge on flute is building an embourchure
and locating a head joint that works with your anatomy - ie, shopping.
As a flute player and fiddle fan, I think the flute faces certain limitations not shared by the fiddle. But those limitations do not prevent it from being able to express the essence of traditional Irish music, and that makes it an excellent tool for the job at hand.
Tintin oh, yeah I'm not denying it - and the flute or whistle historically
goes back much farther - even to pre-historic times. I wonder if the
ancient residents of Ireland ever had something like the Chinese erhu ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhu
Being a flute-player, I'm often envious of fiddlers being able to change keys so readily. I've had the privilege of playing with truly great fiddle players, and marvel at what they can get out of the instrument. But then I also marvel at the great flute players of our day. My vote would be the marriage of the two. Have a listen to the CD of Matt Molloy, Sean Keane and Arty McGlyyn, "Contentment is Wealth"
Fiddle more expressive, more varied in its possiblities- As a flute player, I often envy the expressive range of the fiddle. Easier? One thing that fiddles don't have to do is to breathe- at least not in a way that works with the tunes. I think that flute is harder than fiddlers give it credit for. It takes a lot of stamina in addition to skill.
Flute and fiddle are different, but it's silly to suggest one is inferior to the other for playing this music. They each bring their own voice to the music, and so both are important, even integral.
The crux of the decision of which instrument to play is: which one calls your name? Which one can you not live without playing? Which one fits *you* best? If you already know the answer, then don't worry about anyone else's opinion.
That said, it's fun and enlightening to play both. Fiddle is my main instrument, but I really enjoy playing flute. It influences my sense of phrasing on fiddle (thinking about where to breathe), and I better understand why some tunes are natural flute tunes. That makes me a better session player--more in tune to what my wind-playing session mates want to play, and better able to use my bow to complement their playing.
I wish I could play 'em all - I'm going to take up a second one
(not counting whistle) - but can't decide. Pipes is what I like but I'll
never be able to afford that - time or money.
As a fiddle player, I'm amazed at Hup's suggestion that "flute ... have just a fraction of the expressive power of the fiddle". Flute's a brilliant instrument. Wish I could play it.
Flute is a beautiful instrument indeed - probably my favourite - I listen more to flute cds than fiddle cds and almost all of the tunes I love are diffcult on the fiddle because they were written by flute players - vincent broderick tunes spring to mind.
I do think it is silly to suggest flute being a harder instrument though. They are all difficult in different ways..and only someone who has never played fiddle would think that flute would be harder somehow.
Ben - I like Harry Bradley's playing - reminds me of Andy McGann - but it
doesn't come close to Martin Hayes, Tommy Peoples or various other
fiddlers (or pipers). If I did play flute, Bradley and Broderick would be
two of my models.
After going to a workshop by Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh I can't help but feel that all instruments are inferior to the fiddle. I can't imagine how poor irish music would be without flute, I think it is essential, but when Caoimhín played and spoke about his instrument, there was so much going on, not just the note, the rhythm, the ornamentation, the bowing, but everything else. It was equal parts music straight from the recesses of his mind and his soul. I don't think any instrument can convey that music as accurately as fiddle. That said, hardly anyone gets to that kind of musical level regardless of the type of instrument they play, so it is something of a redundant question. And players on many instruments get close.
As a flute player I can sometimes envy double stops and playing in different keys. But if I really want to play in different keys I haul out the Boehm - problem solved... And the keys don't occur that often in ITM. Some tunes taditionally get played more often in fiddle friendly keys rather than flute friendly keys but that says more about the socio-dynamics of the session scene than the about the instruments.
And the flute goes much higher than the fiddle really does. Even though most players don't use the third octave much in ITM. And whoever thinks the flute is not expressive probably thinks the human voice isn't either. Properly played, the flute has more similarities with the human voice than any other instrument.
Anyway, what I'm getting down to is that the players are limited far more than the instruments.
While it's a no brainer than the violin is a more versatile instrument that the simple system flute, the question is specifically about the instruments' suitability top play diddley music. While it's nice to be able to go down below the D, and it's fun to double stop and do bowed triplets and play in antisocial keys, etc., non of the above are necessary to the music. Every last drop of necessity can be more than easily coped with on the flute.
As for having to breath? Anyone who thinks that this is a disadvantage with the flute cannot understand the music. If anything, not having to breath with the fiddle is a disadvantage.
"the question is specifically about the instruments' suitability top play diddley music" - yes, this is a very good point. Most of Caoimhín's stuff is based on traditional music, and his experience of a lifetime of playing it, but it's not traditional. And no one could argue that there is anything missing from Matt Molloy's playing of traditional music. Nor dozens of other flute players, box players, concertina players, or anything players.
Any instrument is only as limited as the person playing it. Even the humble whistle can be very complex in the right hands.
Sure, flute can't go down to low A or play double stops but a fiddle isn't so great with crans and what do you do without breath control? It's all swings and roundabouts. Anyone who things the 'simple flute system' is easy should try reels with lots of G sharps or F nats in them. Does that mean they are limited or they are MORE difficult to play well?
Actually I love both. But really - how difficult can it be to play an instrument that only plays a melody line? Eeeh, I don't know, folks nowadays don't know they're born!
??? It's not difficult at all to play a single melody line but if trad tunes were as simple as that you wouldn't see the cringeworthy attempts by some of the best 'melody line' musicians in the classical world.
"Most of Caoimhín's stuff is based on traditional music, and his experience of a lifetime of playing it, but it's not traditional."
Jaysus, when will you people ever learn? I'd stopped posting on this site for good reason but when I see something like this I just have to jump back in briefly.
'Traditional' does not mean some point frozen in time, someone's playing is not traditional because it is exactly the same as how someone played 100 years ago, in fact that's the opposite of what real traditional Irish music is.
The tradition is in a constant state of evolution and so the true essence of this tradition is in taking what's gone before and then bringing it in a new direction that respects the past but does something new with it from within the tradition. In this way Caoimhín is as 'traditional' as Willy Clancy, Tommy Potts, Paddy Fahey, Matt Molloy, Martin Hayes, Tommy Peoples etc.
Those who blindly think that being 'traditional' means you should strive to play exactly like Coleman or Morrison or some farmer who lived 150 years ago are the most inauthentic people in this tradition. They're living in a museum culture and in the vain pursuit of something they cannot possibly achieve.
So the key to really being faithful to this tradition is to find your own voice from within the music and whether you do this playing flute, fiddle, banjo, accordion or didgeridoo doesn't matter. What matters is that you just try to do it!!!
What matters is that you respect and use the best of the past, not disguard it. I'd like to respectfully suggest that it's impossible to respect the best of the past with a didgeridoo. The instrument does matter.
Bogman - I totally am with you. I was being tongue-in-cheek (or maybe just cheeky!!). I've heard classical musicians murdering Irish music. Not a pretty sound!
"What matters is that you respect and use the best of the past, not disguard it."
Exactly what I'm saying, that's what finding your own voice within the tradition entails. "You've got to learn it all then forget it all" as jazz great Louis Stewart once said.
"I'd like to respectfully suggest that it's impossible to respect the best of the past with a didgeridoo."
I was being ironic when I suggested a didgeridoo but still, a didgeridoo can produce a mean drone which when done well can ably imitate the drones of the Uilleann Pipes. Just ask Steve Cooney.
A great musician can transcend the difficulties of any instrument. I'm still convinced somebody could take something like an oboe and make it blend perfectly into the tradition.
Anyway I'm not gonna get caught up in another silly debate with you of all people Mr. Gill, so good luck to you!
I gave this a lot of thought, and finally realized that I had my answer in the following phrase: I am impressed by great fiddlers, but I am in awe of great flute players.
Several people have hit upon the essential factor--it's the player, not the instrument, that makes the difference. Really understanding the music--exactly what techniques to execute, and when-- is at least as important as the ability to execute it.
That's why some old codger with stiff, gnarled fingers can play a simple tune in a way that brings you to tears, while a youngster ripping through tunes at the speed of light, with all sorts of technical fireworks, leaves you cold. Or impresses you for a short time--but the fascination doesn't last.
So it doesn't really matter how many different tricks the instrument is capable of--it's all down to the player.
I am convinced that the more limitations an instrument has, the more a good musician can impress on it. Hence the lack of kudos held by piano accordion players.
Yes, concertinas and banjos and piano accordions, etc, are on a second tier, because they are not capable of the required articulations. But the flute? No way. The flute is the tops, the essence, the business of the music.
# Posted on October 19th 2008 by llig leahcim .
what a ridiculous statement
all these instruments can articulate very well,what they cant do,is imitate a fiddle successfully,
they can not produce glissandos that are not mechanical
,this can not be acheived on a fixed reed instrument[including a button accordian][imo]
but neither can the flute produce a glissando,it can of course bend notes.
.Micheal Gill your ill considered remarks are tedious
Kjay is of all people *not* one of those who goes around copying Morrisson or Coleman. I assure you.
This really is a stupid argument. The tunes would not be the same if there were no fiddles OR flutes. They are both needed in this music. I really think its silly to be talking about how one is better - or one is harder. Lets face it -they both matter.
"This really is a stupid argument. The tunes would not be the same if there were no fiddles OR flutes. They are both needed in this music. I really think its silly to be talking about how one is better - or one is harder. Lets face it -they both matter." -bb
Unsuprisingly I agree with bb. This is about the lamest argument, ever. *Both* are important to the music and bring totally different things to it.
I wasn't actually asking whether the flute is as good and versatile as the fiddle, I realize they are very different instruments, and I was not looking for a comparison. However, the hackles raised and ensuing argument is actually pretty entertaining.
I do have a much better sense of ITM musicians feeling on the range and importance of the flute, so thank you.
And I especially like what Will said here:
"The crux of the decision of which instrument to play is: which one calls your name? Which one can you not live without playing? Which one fits *you* best? If you already know the answer, then don't worry about anyone else's opinion."
I feel I should clarify, obviously tradition is not fixed, but "Kitty Lie Over" is clearly in a traditional style, "Where the one-eyed man is king" isn't, it's something else entirely. It's this second album I was referring to. And now that I've made two additional comments to clarify my original statement, I'll say no more. (unless anyone has anything else to misinterpret, justifiably or otherwise)
llig,you will have to wait,Iam busy with more important things ,recording a new cd etc,
but I can assure you long slow rolls can be played on all three systems of concertina.
wrong Will,Ido not play slow rolls in this tune
.my understanding of a slow roll is, note,note above ,note, note below ,note.
neither do I play them in the sally gardens reel.
in my own time I will illustrate them,probably in a jig.
now Will and Llig go and play tiddley winks .
Flute/fiddle duos
Thank you airport. The 'Full Set' broadcasts look like they will be just what I wanted to hear. I don't know why I never looked past the 1st broadcast with Liam O'Flynn & Paddy Glackin.
Cheers!
No way! It's criminal I tell you. I am going to take fast tune recorded by McGoldrick & learn it all by speeding up the playback.
I hope I don't need a smiley for that remark. Actually I have tried speeding up recordings. Talk about a waste of a minute & a half. Turn the repeat loop off when you try that.
I've done that too - it's not pretty, but a useful tool for making sure you can play a tune at dance tempo. uh oh, here it comes...metronome... sheetmusic... drum machine. dam the Tourette's is acting up again!
dickens, you play what sounds like it's supposed to be a long roll in the Concertina Reel. And some sort of triplets. I assume you were under the influence while taping all that, though.
A Limited Instrument?
A Limited Instrument?
I recently switched back to flute from fiddle for my primary instrument. Truthfully, I'm much more of a natural on the flute, and have been playing for far more years.
Anyhow, upon telling a fiddling friend of my decision, she responded with something slightly short of horror (she's an american old-timey player, not ITM) and exclaimed upon the limitations of the flute, as well as some implication that it's so much easier than the fiddle....
Now, perhaps it's just me, but in all my years of playing flute, it never occurred to me that it is either limited nor easy. It's certainly easier FOR ME than fiddle, but still not exactly simplistic. And certainly, I've always thought that the flute, especially in trad (ITM and also world-wide) music, had a huge range of possibilities and dynamics.
What do you think?
# Posted on October 19th 2008 by Sweetbriar
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I can't speak for old-timey, I'm not interested in it. And I can't speak for how easy either is, it's irrelevant. But for Irish diddley music, there is very little you can't do on the flute that you can do on the fiddle, and vice versa.
Yes, concertinas and banjos and piano accordions, etc, are on a second tier, because they are not capable of the required articulations. But the flute? No way. The flute is the tops, the essence, the business of the music.
# Posted on October 19th 2008 by ...
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I love well played Irish flute.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Flute is harder to learn, IMHO.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by polkageist
Re: A Limited Instrument?
ahh, thanks llig... yes, I wasn't asking anyone to comment upon old-timey, but rather capability of the flute within ITM, which you have done admirably.
and upon thinking about it, I suppose that I agree that the level of ease or difficulty of playing any given instrument is very likely irrelevant to its importance and capacity within the music.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Sweetbriar
Re: A Limited Instrument?
whew -- i'm trying to imagine noel hill playing a 'second tier' instrument, and it's hurting my brain. what's this need to rank things about, anyway?
that said, i think, when i sink into the sound, fine flute playing comes closer to the human voice than anything else, and is incredibly expressive and evocative.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by 'tinamatt
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I imagine the overall note range of a violin is greater than that of a simple-system flute, and that overall the violin lends itself more to playing in the scales outwith the D, G, A bunch, if the flute is a D one. Playing in some of these scales on a D simple-system has struck me as very difficult if not impossible, though maybe there are flute players here who find them a doddle.
But llig's right about the flute's being the business of Irish music. Every once in a while cultural history brings some blow-in to an environment remote from its origins where it is wildly suitable to local usages and no-one cares to imagine what life must have been like before it came. The coming of the simple-system flute to Irish trad can be compared in this respect to the arrival of the tomato to the cuisine of the Mediterranean.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by nicholas
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Speaking as a poor excuse for a second-rate banjo player, could I please just second llig in saying that the flute & fiddle (IMHO) both represent the very essence of the music. The flute perhaps shares a similar allure to the Uilleann pipes.
Actually, why are even bothering to discuss this?; the music when played through a sympathetic medium 'speaks' for itself.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Rick Payman
Re: A Limited Instrument?
'tinamatt, I dunno if you were around for the previous discussion on the tiers of instruments in ITM, but if you weren't you might want to go dig it up. It's quite interesting, if possibly offensive to some/many (as per usual when llig starts a conversation).
good analogy nicholas LOL
I brought it up Rick, simply because I wondered if my own perceptions were a bit askew and am much appreciating the input of the people here. However, I agree that the music does very much speak for itself.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Sweetbriar
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Agreed, a flute in the right hands is a wonderful thing.
But... what about double stops? And single bows versus slurs (flute always seems legato rather than staccato, and not by choice, if you get my drift). And pizzicato. And "Cat-sneeze triplets." Not to mention notes below D, as nicholas points out.
Yes, you can argue that some fiddle effects don't belong in Irish music--but it depends on how you define "Irish music" I think. And it's fair to point them out, if the topic is "limitations of an instrument."
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by John Galt
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I come from a wind instrument background but I have to say that flute
(and clarinet, oboe, bassoon, etc etc.) have just a fraction of the
expressive power of the fiddle --- in the right hands of course. Matt
Malloy can be more subtle than most on the wooden flute but can't
compare to what Martin Hayes, Tommy Peoples and others can get
out of a fiddle. Fiddle is also monstrously hard to play compared to
flute. The main technical challenge on flute is building an embourchure
and locating a head joint that works with your anatomy - ie, shopping.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Hup
Re: A Limited Instrument?
As a flute player and fiddle fan, I think the flute faces certain limitations not shared by the fiddle. But those limitations do not prevent it from being able to express the essence of traditional Irish music, and that makes it an excellent tool for the job at hand.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by mcswiss
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Tintin oh, yeah I'm not denying it - and the flute or whistle historically
goes back much farther - even to pre-historic times. I wonder if the
ancient residents of Ireland ever had something like the Chinese erhu ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhu
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Hup
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Being a flute-player, I'm often envious of fiddlers being able to change keys so readily. I've had the privilege of playing with truly great fiddle players, and marvel at what they can get out of the instrument. But then I also marvel at the great flute players of our day. My vote would be the marriage of the two. Have a listen to the CD of Matt Molloy, Sean Keane and Arty McGlyyn, "Contentment is Wealth"
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by jtrout
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Fiddle more expressive, more varied in its possiblities- As a flute player, I often envy the expressive range of the fiddle. Easier? One thing that fiddles don't have to do is to breathe- at least not in a way that works with the tunes. I think that flute is harder than fiddlers give it credit for. It takes a lot of stamina in addition to skill.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by steve98070
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Flute a limited instrument? No, it's the other way around. A tune that you can't play on the flute is a limited tune.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Flute and fiddle are different, but it's silly to suggest one is inferior to the other for playing this music. They each bring their own voice to the music, and so both are important, even integral.
The crux of the decision of which instrument to play is: which one calls your name? Which one can you not live without playing? Which one fits *you* best? If you already know the answer, then don't worry about anyone else's opinion.
That said, it's fun and enlightening to play both. Fiddle is my main instrument, but I really enjoy playing flute. It influences my sense of phrasing on fiddle (thinking about where to breathe), and I better understand why some tunes are natural flute tunes. That makes me a better session player--more in tune to what my wind-playing session mates want to play, and better able to use my bow to complement their playing.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I wish I could play 'em all - I'm going to take up a second one
(not counting whistle) - but can't decide. Pipes is what I like but I'll
never be able to afford that - time or money.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Hup
Re: A Limited Instrument?
As a fiddle player, I'm amazed at Hup's suggestion that "flute ... have just a fraction of the expressive power of the fiddle". Flute's a brilliant instrument. Wish I could play it.
Expressive power? Listen to Harry.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Flute is a beautiful instrument indeed - probably my favourite - I listen more to flute cds than fiddle cds and almost all of the tunes I love are diffcult on the fiddle because they were written by flute players - vincent broderick tunes spring to mind.
I do think it is silly to suggest flute being a harder instrument though. They are all difficult in different ways..and only someone who has never played fiddle would think that flute would be harder somehow.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by bb
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Ben - I like Harry Bradley's playing - reminds me of Andy McGann - but it
doesn't come close to Martin Hayes, Tommy Peoples or various other
fiddlers (or pipers). If I did play flute, Bradley and Broderick would be
two of my models.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Hup
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Actually, I _do_ play flute - but the shiny metal one and not any more
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Hup
Re: A Limited Instrument?
After going to a workshop by Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh I can't help but feel that all instruments are inferior to the fiddle. I can't imagine how poor irish music would be without flute, I think it is essential, but when Caoimhín played and spoke about his instrument, there was so much going on, not just the note, the rhythm, the ornamentation, the bowing, but everything else. It was equal parts music straight from the recesses of his mind and his soul. I don't think any instrument can convey that music as accurately as fiddle. That said, hardly anyone gets to that kind of musical level regardless of the type of instrument they play, so it is something of a redundant question. And players on many instruments get close.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by kjay_bc_box
Re: A Limited Instrument?
As a flute player I can sometimes envy double stops and playing in different keys. But if I really want to play in different keys I haul out the Boehm - problem solved... And the keys don't occur that often in ITM. Some tunes taditionally get played more often in fiddle friendly keys rather than flute friendly keys but that says more about the socio-dynamics of the session scene than the about the instruments.
And the flute goes much higher than the fiddle really does. Even though most players don't use the third octave much in ITM. And whoever thinks the flute is not expressive probably thinks the human voice isn't either. Properly played, the flute has more similarities with the human voice than any other instrument.
Anyway, what I'm getting down to is that the players are limited far more than the instruments.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: A Limited Instrument?
While it's a no brainer than the violin is a more versatile instrument that the simple system flute, the question is specifically about the instruments' suitability top play diddley music. While it's nice to be able to go down below the D, and it's fun to double stop and do bowed triplets and play in antisocial keys, etc., non of the above are necessary to the music. Every last drop of necessity can be more than easily coped with on the flute.
As for having to breath? Anyone who thinks that this is a disadvantage with the flute cannot understand the music. If anything, not having to breath with the fiddle is a disadvantage.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by ...
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Bloody hell. I agree with every word of that, Michael. And that's something I try hard never to say.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: A Limited Instrument?
"the question is specifically about the instruments' suitability top play diddley music" - yes, this is a very good point. Most of Caoimhín's stuff is based on traditional music, and his experience of a lifetime of playing it, but it's not traditional. And no one could argue that there is anything missing from Matt Molloy's playing of traditional music. Nor dozens of other flute players, box players, concertina players, or anything players.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by kjay_bc_box
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Any instrument is only as limited as the person playing it. Even the humble whistle can be very complex in the right hands.
Sure, flute can't go down to low A or play double stops but a fiddle isn't so great with crans and what do you do without breath control? It's all swings and roundabouts. Anyone who things the 'simple flute system' is easy should try reels with lots of G sharps or F nats in them. Does that mean they are limited or they are MORE difficult to play well?
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by bogman
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Actually I love both. But really - how difficult can it be to play an instrument that only plays a melody line? Eeeh, I don't know, folks nowadays don't know they're born!
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: A Limited Instrument?
??? It's not difficult at all to play a single melody line but if trad tunes were as simple as that you wouldn't see the cringeworthy attempts by some of the best 'melody line' musicians in the classical world.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by bogman
Re: A Limited Instrument?
"Most of Caoimhín's stuff is based on traditional music, and his experience of a lifetime of playing it, but it's not traditional."
Jaysus, when will you people ever learn? I'd stopped posting on this site for good reason but when I see something like this I just have to jump back in briefly.
'Traditional' does not mean some point frozen in time, someone's playing is not traditional because it is exactly the same as how someone played 100 years ago, in fact that's the opposite of what real traditional Irish music is.
The tradition is in a constant state of evolution and so the true essence of this tradition is in taking what's gone before and then bringing it in a new direction that respects the past but does something new with it from within the tradition. In this way Caoimhín is as 'traditional' as Willy Clancy, Tommy Potts, Paddy Fahey, Matt Molloy, Martin Hayes, Tommy Peoples etc.
Those who blindly think that being 'traditional' means you should strive to play exactly like Coleman or Morrison or some farmer who lived 150 years ago are the most inauthentic people in this tradition. They're living in a museum culture and in the vain pursuit of something they cannot possibly achieve.
So the key to really being faithful to this tradition is to find your own voice from within the music and whether you do this playing flute, fiddle, banjo, accordion or didgeridoo doesn't matter. What matters is that you just try to do it!!!
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Limited Instrument?
What matters is that you respect and use the best of the past, not disguard it. I'd like to respectfully suggest that it's impossible to respect the best of the past with a didgeridoo. The instrument does matter.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by ...
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Bogman - I totally am with you. I was being tongue-in-cheek (or maybe just cheeky!!). I've heard classical musicians murdering Irish music. Not a pretty sound!
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: A Limited Instrument?
How hard can a harp be? You don't even need to be alive to play one.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: A Limited Instrument?
"What matters is that you respect and use the best of the past, not disguard it."
Exactly what I'm saying, that's what finding your own voice within the tradition entails. "You've got to learn it all then forget it all" as jazz great Louis Stewart once said.
"I'd like to respectfully suggest that it's impossible to respect the best of the past with a didgeridoo."
I was being ironic when I suggested a didgeridoo but still, a didgeridoo can produce a mean drone which when done well can ably imitate the drones of the Uilleann Pipes. Just ask Steve Cooney.
A great musician can transcend the difficulties of any instrument. I'm still convinced somebody could take something like an oboe and make it blend perfectly into the tradition.
Anyway I'm not gonna get caught up in another silly debate with you of all people Mr. Gill, so good luck to you!
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by The Tune Composer
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Caoimhin is a really good flute player too, which is pretty depressing.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Ben, that really made me laugh.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by bogman
Re: A Limited Instrument?
At your service, Monsieur Bog.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I gave this a lot of thought, and finally realized that I had my answer in the following phrase: I am impressed by great fiddlers, but I am in awe of great flute players.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Ailin
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Several people have hit upon the essential factor--it's the player, not the instrument, that makes the difference. Really understanding the music--exactly what techniques to execute, and when-- is at least as important as the ability to execute it.
That's why some old codger with stiff, gnarled fingers can play a simple tune in a way that brings you to tears, while a youngster ripping through tunes at the speed of light, with all sorts of technical fireworks, leaves you cold. Or impresses you for a short time--but the fascination doesn't last.
So it doesn't really matter how many different tricks the instrument is capable of--it's all down to the player.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by John Galt
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I am convinced that the more limitations an instrument has, the more a good musician can impress on it. Hence the lack of kudos held by piano accordion players.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Yes, concertinas and banjos and piano accordions, etc, are on a second tier, because they are not capable of the required articulations. But the flute? No way. The flute is the tops, the essence, the business of the music.
# Posted on October 19th 2008 by llig leahcim .
what a ridiculous statement
all these instruments can articulate very well,what they cant do,is imitate a fiddle successfully,
they can not produce glissandos that are not mechanical
,this can not be acheived on a fixed reed instrument[including a button accordian][imo]
but neither can the flute produce a glissando,it can of course bend notes.
.Micheal Gill your ill considered remarks are tedious
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Hey Pants,
Kjay is of all people *not* one of those who goes around copying Morrisson or Coleman. I assure you.
This really is a stupid argument. The tunes would not be the same if there were no fiddles OR flutes. They are both needed in this music. I really think its silly to be talking about how one is better - or one is harder. Lets face it -they both matter.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by bb
Re: A Limited Instrument?
amen - I hate it when I wallow around in silly arguments. But what
better place to do it than the yella board? Yay!
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Hup
Re: A Limited Instrument?
BTW - I was at the same workshop KJay was talking about. I was the
one asking a whole bunch of annoying questions in front row.
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Hup
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Ha ha ha bloody ha ha. Flippin heck, the flute with holes and not keys is so so suited to smooth glissando transitions between notes.
I consider all my remarks.
Have you that slow/long roll you promised me?
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by ...
Re: A Limited Instrument?
"Flute limited compared to fiddle..." what a crock... Only a fiddler would dare say such a thing.
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Michael Eskin
Re: A Limited Instrument?
"This really is a stupid argument. The tunes would not be the same if there were no fiddles OR flutes. They are both needed in this music. I really think its silly to be talking about how one is better - or one is harder. Lets face it -they both matter." -bb
Unsuprisingly I agree with bb. This is about the lamest argument, ever. *Both* are important to the music and bring totally different things to it.
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I wasn't actually asking whether the flute is as good and versatile as the fiddle, I realize they are very different instruments, and I was not looking for a comparison. However, the hackles raised and ensuing argument is actually pretty entertaining.
I do have a much better sense of ITM musicians feeling on the range and importance of the flute, so thank you.
And I especially like what Will said here:
"The crux of the decision of which instrument to play is: which one calls your name? Which one can you not live without playing? Which one fits *you* best? If you already know the answer, then don't worry about anyone else's opinion."
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Sweetbriar
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I feel I should clarify, obviously tradition is not fixed, but "Kitty Lie Over" is clearly in a traditional style, "Where the one-eyed man is king" isn't, it's something else entirely. It's this second album I was referring to. And now that I've made two additional comments to clarify my original statement, I'll say no more. (unless anyone has anything else to misinterpret, justifiably or otherwise)
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by kjay_bc_box
Re: A Limited Instrument?
"Ha ha ha bloody ha ha."
Wrong rhythm llig.
"Hardy ha-ha, bloody ha".
That's it!
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Ya gotta *listen*, man.
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: A Limited Instrument?
llig,you will have to wait,Iam busy with more important things ,recording a new cd etc,
but I can assure you long slow rolls can be played on all three systems of concertina.
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: A Limited Instrument?
No need to wait. You can hear dickens playing long slow rolls here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrt6Xkkq-co&feature=related
Whether they sound good or not is up to you.
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: A Limited Instrument?
A slight off - topic detour. Are there flute/fiddle duos which are particularly nice?
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I couldn't hear any rolls in that link, but a lovely air which I shall learn. The song of the books, very nice.
I would have to agree with Dickens on the comment from llig regarding Hierarchy of musical instruments. WTF? Has Llig ever actually been to Ireland ?
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: A Limited Instrument?
wrong Will,Ido not play slow rolls in this tune
.my understanding of a slow roll is, note,note above ,note, note below ,note.
neither do I play them in the sally gardens reel.
in my own time I will illustrate them,probably in a jig.
now Will and Llig go and play tiddley winks .
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: A Limited Instrument?
So much for too "busy .
with more important things . . . '
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Random_notes - there are some Full Set clips on youtube that have some great fiddle & flute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h_hnvJle2E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIr42PhLIDA
Paul O'Shaughnessy and Harry Bradley are great too!
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by airport
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Harry Bradley!
: - )
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: A Limited Instrument?
Flute/fiddle duos
Thank you airport. The 'Full Set' broadcasts look like they will be just what I wanted to hear. I don't know why I never looked past the 1st broadcast with Liam O'Flynn & Paddy Glackin.
Cheers!
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: A Limited Instrument?
happy to help! by the way I learned a bunch of those tunes by downloaded the videos and slowing them down
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by airport
Re: A Limited Instrument?
No way! It's criminal I tell you. I am going to take fast tune recorded by McGoldrick & learn it all by speeding up the playback.
I hope I don't need a smiley for that remark. Actually I have tried speeding up recordings. Talk about a waste of a minute & a half. Turn the repeat loop off when you try that.
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: A Limited Instrument?
I've done that too - it's not pretty, but a useful tool for making sure you can play a tune at dance tempo. uh oh, here it comes...metronome... sheetmusic... drum machine. dam the Tourette's is acting up again!
# Posted on October 21st 2008 by airport
Re: A Limited Instrument?
notes...dots...feck...
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: A Limited Instrument?
arpeggios.....
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by airport
Re: A Limited Instrument?
dickens, you play what sounds like it's supposed to be a long roll in the Concertina Reel. And some sort of triplets. I assume you were under the influence while taping all that, though.
# Posted on October 22nd 2008 by Will Harmon