I've been using Spirocore. I'm fed up with them. They're stretchy, they're too hard on your fingers and they kind of sound 'twangy', if you see what I mean. I'm seriously thinking about going back to gut. But someone in some recent discussion said that tailpieces with adjustors (even built in) were not suitable for gut strings.
I've never really considered that adjustors wouldn't work just as well on gut strings as on synthetic or steel.
Does anyone actually know? And if it does make a difference ... why? Given that I want to keep my adjustors (because they're useful in the thick of busy sessions and even more useful for gigs) what strings *can* I use that will sound and feel like gut and yet work with adjustors?
Ben, the old gut strings were too stretchy for fine tuners to be of much use--you'd run out of screw thread before the string was in tune. And then the string would stretch or shrink again anyway.
New-age gut may not react as much to humidity and temp changes, and may run high enough tension to work with fine tuners. I don't know--never tried 'em.
For synth strings, I really like Thomastik's Titanium Vision soloist strings. Easy (silky) on the fingers, can stand up to being pushed for volume, respond excellently at any volume, all the way down to a whisper, and work well with fine tuners. I save money (and get a better E string) by buying just the G, D, and A strings, and then substitute a Lezner Goldbrokat or Helicore E.
But benhall - what about the baby lambs? I've used many synthetic strings with fine tuners, but never gut. Obligato's are a nice mellow gut-ish string (a bit pricey though)
Yip - as Will said, fine tuners are useless for gut - and it certainly isn't so easy to tweak the tuning using pegs.. But I must admit, my personal preference is for gut rather than synthetic or steel, for tone as well as what the strings give back to you when playing.
To be honest, airport, I'm at the stage of frustration where I don't really care about price. Gimme something that sounds gut-like, and will work with adjustors ("fine tuners", if you prefer) and I'll take 'em.
On my old English fiddle, I use Golden Spiral Solo, which are really nice. But I have an old-fahioned tailpiece on that and no fine tuners. I'd ideally like to be able to find a string that will work for both that fiddle (as is, with no adjustors) and my newish (2004) fiddle with adjustors. Probably a hopeless quest ... hmmm ...
If you're not worried about the cost, you should try those Obligatos - they're fine with adjustors, and probably would sound really good on a newer fiddle.
Ben - no need to ditch the tailpiece if it has built-in fine tuners, all you need do is not use those for the A to G. I bought a very nice Hill-style tailpiece with built in fine tuners for one of my fiddles, then got very frustrated with how the G string on Thomastic Dominants drags and doesn't produce the goods if asked to do anything even marginally strenuous, and switched to gut. I still use the nice tailpiece, but only the fine-tuner for the E.
Out of interest, I suppose everyone knows why it's called 'catgut' do they? You know, 'cat' being short for 'cattle', being in its turn the old word for sheep ... 'n' all ...
I support those who have suggested Obligatos and Titanium Visions. They both settle down quickly, hold their tuning and last well. Obligatos, in my experience, are probably as close to the feel and tone of wound gut as any, but without gut's instability problems. If the pegging is up to standard both types of string tune easily from the pegs; micro adjusters are an irrelevance and only add weight.
The Eudoxa wound gut A has a ball end if you require it. The Eudoxa wound gut D and G have loop ends only. You can visualise the problems those would have with micrometer adjuster fittings even if you are intent on peg tuning.
If you've got an old fiddle to spare (perhaps for Baroque or Early Musick) then there's no reason why you couldn't play around with uncovered gut A and D (or even a plain gut E if you're at baroque pitch). The G is usually covered to give it extra mass. The next item on the learning curve is learning how to tie those knots at the tailpiece end - I still can't do it properly.
Plain gut strings probably have the best quality/price ratio around (old technology, you see), and last reasonably well if looked after - I'd except the gut E from that, though.
For synthetic there is a fairly new string by Larsen called Tzigane that feels very much like gut without the hassles. I know four fiddlers who use them now.
There is also a new gut core string that has eliminated a lot of the typical gut hassles by Pirastro called Passione. I've just put on my second set. They all have ball ends so no problem using them with your tailpiece although it would probably be useless to try to use the fine tuners on the G and D. You could tweek the A a little I think. They are very strident at first but mellow after about 4 days which is when the pitch starts to stabilize too.
Lower tension strings do wonders for my fiddle, It has a lot more resonance and projection than with them than with Evah's, Vision, etc.
Thanks all. Loads of ideas there then. I reckon that for sessions/gigging I'm going to have to stick with the tailpiece with the built in adjustors. I'll do a bit more resarch on some of the strings you guys have mentioned. Maybe Passione's the answer. I'll try a few different sorts and let you know ... in about 6 months, I should think, unless I hit it right first time ...
Im another fan of the vision titaniums, very stable string with good sound.
However, as my fiddle is an old gal, I am currently trying out the newly released Brilliant Vintage from Warchal's, I dont have fine tuners on my G, D or A & because the E string on the Brilliant Vintage came as a loop end, I'm currently set up with a Titanium solo E but may revert that back to a light weight Dom.
I loved the sound the Titaniums produced but, now that they are starting the settle in & give, these Brilliant Vintage strings may well prove to have the edge over them, the warmth they are developing is fantastic.
I took the plunge and got rid of the adjusters except for the E, except for one fiddle which has a Pusch tailpiece. Various not very special fiddles have come my way over the years, but a month or so ago acquired a better one. This had a set of Tonicas on it and it sounds great. No need for adjusters as the pegs behave well, and my ability to keep it in tune has improved with practice. Those alloy tailpieces are not a good thing - I tried them on two of the other fiddles and when I saw sense and put the old ebony tailpieces back on with an adjuster only on the E, the difference in volume and tone was obvious. One of the old fiddles (high-arched, German) I regarded as the worst of the lot, but after an earlier discussion and on Ben's recommendation I put Golden Spiral Solo (wound gut) on it last December, and I'm still using them and play it every day. The thing is, they took weeks to become stable, but they're totally stable now. In the first few weeks they always went sharp in the first 10 mins of playing, so you retune and they settle, but when you take the fiddle out of its case next time they're flat. Now they're brilliantly stable, and I don't think they need replacing yet. I wouldn't have taken this fiddle to a session when it first had the gut strings on it, but I'd take it now. I'm amazed the strings have lasted so long, and all the peg-tuning has been really good practice.
I saw a set on a fiddle once. Someone brought the fiddle into a session to ask our advice about it (we couldn't give any so we directed him to the local violin shop). The impression I got was that at first glance they looked just like a normal set of pegs - no gearing hanging off the side of the peg-box a la guitar.
Apparently the device uses some sort of internal helical gearing mechanism. It looks like it should work well but the main reservation I have is that there will be extra weight at the pegbox end of the instrument, which might cause problems in holding it over a period of time, and the extra weight will alter the vibration characteristics of the head and therefore have an effect on the overall tone of the instrument (which, incidentally, is a good reason why you shouldn't grip the neck tightly).
Such geared tuning pegs would, however, be very suitable for the cello, especially where the player is using synthetic or gut strings that need to be tuning from the peg - if you think a sticking fiddle peg is a pain, then try turning sticking cello pegs. No, on second thoughts, don't - it's far less expensive to get the pegs seen to by a luthier than it is to pay for a course of remedial physiotherapy.
Luis and Clark carbon-fibre cellos (they also make c-f violins and violas) use internally-geared tuning pegs made by pegheds - see http://www,pegheds.com.
Just thought I'd post an update. In the end, I took the advice of the fiddle bloke (that's English for 'luthier') that I've always gone to - Howard Morgan of San Domenico Stringed Instruments in Cardiff.
I though he'd be really pleased that I'd decided to go back to gut. Instead, he kind of looked down his nose at me and told me that gut strings were "old hat". He persuaded me to buy Eva Pirazzi (should have listened to you in the first place, Will ), which I did, but replaced the E with an Obligato gold E string. I have to say, they feel and sound great. I don't think I'll be going back to steel now. And the fine tuners do work with all the strings, though of course they don't make anywhere near the difference they would on steel strings.
Richard - for my older, English fiddle, I still think I'm going to stick to gut. And Golden Spiral solo is still my string of choice there. Though I may experiment with a gold E at some point.
Good to hear this, Ben. Evah's with an Obligato E were what I ran on my fiddle for several years. Still like that set up, but the Visions are a lot cheaper and a tad warmer sounding on my fiddle, so I switched.
Help! Another fiddle string question
Help! Another fiddle string question
I've been using Spirocore. I'm fed up with them. They're stretchy, they're too hard on your fingers and they kind of sound 'twangy', if you see what I mean. I'm seriously thinking about going back to gut. But someone in some recent discussion said that tailpieces with adjustors (even built in) were not suitable for gut strings.
I've never really considered that adjustors wouldn't work just as well on gut strings as on synthetic or steel.
Does anyone actually know? And if it does make a difference ... why? Given that I want to keep my adjustors (because they're useful in the thick of busy sessions and even more useful for gigs) what strings *can* I use that will sound and feel like gut and yet work with adjustors?
# Posted on October 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Ben, the old gut strings were too stretchy for fine tuners to be of much use--you'd run out of screw thread before the string was in tune. And then the string would stretch or shrink again anyway.
New-age gut may not react as much to humidity and temp changes, and may run high enough tension to work with fine tuners. I don't know--never tried 'em.
For synth strings, I really like Thomastik's Titanium Vision soloist strings. Easy (silky) on the fingers, can stand up to being pushed for volume, respond excellently at any volume, all the way down to a whisper, and work well with fine tuners. I save money (and get a better E string) by buying just the G, D, and A strings, and then substitute a Lezner Goldbrokat or Helicore E.
Evah Pirrazi's are also excellent synth strings.
# Posted on October 14th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
But benhall - what about the baby lambs? I've used many synthetic strings with fine tuners, but never gut. Obligato's are a nice mellow gut-ish string (a bit pricey though)
# Posted on October 14th 2008 by airport
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Yip - as Will said, fine tuners are useless for gut - and it certainly isn't so easy to tweak the tuning using pegs.. But I must admit, my personal preference is for gut rather than synthetic or steel, for tone as well as what the strings give back to you when playing.
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
To be honest, airport, I'm at the stage of frustration where I don't really care about price. Gimme something that sounds gut-like, and will work with adjustors ("fine tuners", if you prefer) and I'll take 'em.
On my old English fiddle, I use Golden Spiral Solo, which are really nice. But I have an old-fahioned tailpiece on that and no fine tuners. I'd ideally like to be able to find a string that will work for both that fiddle (as is, with no adjustors) and my newish (2004) fiddle with adjustors. Probably a hopeless quest ... hmmm ...
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Ah, Ron. You're suggesting I ditch the tailpiece and go for an old-fashioned wooden one without adjustors? Maybe I should ...
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
If you're not worried about the cost, you should try those Obligatos - they're fine with adjustors, and probably would sound really good on a newer fiddle.
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by airport
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Ben - no need to ditch the tailpiece if it has built-in fine tuners, all you need do is not use those for the A to G. I bought a very nice Hill-style tailpiece with built in fine tuners for one of my fiddles, then got very frustrated with how the G string on Thomastic Dominants drags and doesn't produce the goods if asked to do anything even marginally strenuous, and switched to gut. I still use the nice tailpiece, but only the fine-tuner for the E.
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC4wK_MI4OU&feature=related
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by airport
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Mmmm ... lamb. [smacks lips in anticipation]
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Out of interest, I suppose everyone knows why it's called 'catgut' do they? You know, 'cat' being short for 'cattle', being in its turn the old word for sheep ... 'n' all ...
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
incorrigible!
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by airport
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
crosspost - but still applies!
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by airport
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Go on! Show me a nice juicy calf now. MMMMMMMMM .....
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
If I had a didgi-camera, I could post no end of pictures of cattle for all of you to peruse. I watch my meat grow outside my windows.
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by Fanning
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
I support those who have suggested Obligatos and Titanium Visions. They both settle down quickly, hold their tuning and last well. Obligatos, in my experience, are probably as close to the feel and tone of wound gut as any, but without gut's instability problems. If the pegging is up to standard both types of string tune easily from the pegs; micro adjusters are an irrelevance and only add weight.
The Eudoxa wound gut A has a ball end if you require it. The Eudoxa wound gut D and G have loop ends only. You can visualise the problems those would have with micrometer adjuster fittings even if you are intent on peg tuning.
If you've got an old fiddle to spare (perhaps for Baroque or Early Musick) then there's no reason why you couldn't play around with uncovered gut A and D (or even a plain gut E if you're at baroque pitch). The G is usually covered to give it extra mass. The next item on the learning curve is learning how to tie those knots at the tailpiece end
- I still can't do it properly.
Plain gut strings probably have the best quality/price ratio around (old technology, you see), and last reasonably well if looked after - I'd except the gut E from that, though.
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
For synthetic there is a fairly new string by Larsen called Tzigane that feels very much like gut without the hassles. I know four fiddlers who use them now.
There is also a new gut core string that has eliminated a lot of the typical gut hassles by Pirastro called Passione. I've just put on my second set. They all have ball ends so no problem using them with your tailpiece although it would probably be useless to try to use the fine tuners on the G and D. You could tweek the A a little I think. They are very strident at first but mellow after about 4 days which is when the pitch starts to stabilize too.
Lower tension strings do wonders for my fiddle, It has a lot more resonance and projection than with them than with Evah's, Vision, etc.
Clayton
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by iampeterfonda
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Thanks all. Loads of ideas there then. I reckon that for sessions/gigging I'm going to have to stick with the tailpiece with the built in adjustors. I'll do a bit more resarch on some of the strings you guys have mentioned. Maybe Passione's the answer. I'll try a few different sorts and let you know ... in about 6 months, I should think, unless I hit it right first time ...
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Hi Ben
Im another fan of the vision titaniums, very stable string with good sound.
However, as my fiddle is an old gal, I am currently trying out the newly released Brilliant Vintage from Warchal's, I dont have fine tuners on my G, D or A & because the E string on the Brilliant Vintage came as a loop end, I'm currently set up with a Titanium solo E but may revert that back to a light weight Dom.
I loved the sound the Titaniums produced but, now that they are starting the settle in & give, these Brilliant Vintage strings may well prove to have the edge over them, the warmth they are developing is fantastic.
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by Wabbit
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
I took the plunge and got rid of the adjusters except for the E, except for one fiddle which has a Pusch tailpiece. Various not very special fiddles have come my way over the years, but a month or so ago acquired a better one. This had a set of Tonicas on it and it sounds great. No need for adjusters as the pegs behave well, and my ability to keep it in tune has improved with practice. Those alloy tailpieces are not a good thing - I tried them on two of the other fiddles and when I saw sense and put the old ebony tailpieces back on with an adjuster only on the E, the difference in volume and tone was obvious. One of the old fiddles (high-arched, German) I regarded as the worst of the lot, but after an earlier discussion and on Ben's recommendation I put Golden Spiral Solo (wound gut) on it last December, and I'm still using them and play it every day. The thing is, they took weeks to become stable, but they're totally stable now. In the first few weeks they always went sharp in the first 10 mins of playing, so you retune and they settle, but when you take the fiddle out of its case next time they're flat. Now they're brilliantly stable, and I don't think they need replacing yet. I wouldn't have taken this fiddle to a session when it first had the gut strings on it, but I'd take it now. I'm amazed the strings have lasted so long, and all the peg-tuning has been really good practice.
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Oh I was going to include this link which is really informative: http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=6346
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Anybody had experience with those new-fangled geared tuning pegs? Theoretically, they should eliminate the need for fine tuners entirely.
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
I saw a set on a fiddle once. Someone brought the fiddle into a session to ask our advice about it (we couldn't give any so we directed him to the local violin shop). The impression I got was that at first glance they looked just like a normal set of pegs - no gearing hanging off the side of the peg-box a la guitar.
Apparently the device uses some sort of internal helical gearing mechanism. It looks like it should work well but the main reservation I have is that there will be extra weight at the pegbox end of the instrument, which might cause problems in holding it over a period of time, and the extra weight will alter the vibration characteristics of the head and therefore have an effect on the overall tone of the instrument (which, incidentally, is a good reason why you shouldn't grip the neck tightly).
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
And, in case anyone wants to know, it would probably cost a couple of hundred or so to have them installed.
# Posted on October 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Such geared tuning pegs would, however, be very suitable for the cello, especially where the player is using synthetic or gut strings that need to be tuning from the peg - if you think a sticking fiddle peg is a pain, then try turning sticking cello pegs. No, on second thoughts, don't - it's far less expensive to get the pegs seen to by a luthier than it is to pay for a course of remedial physiotherapy.
Luis and Clark carbon-fibre cellos (they also make c-f violins and violas) use internally-geared tuning pegs made by pegheds - see http://www,pegheds.com.
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
That link should of course be http://www.pegheds.com
# Posted on October 20th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Just thought I'd post an update. In the end, I took the advice of the fiddle bloke (that's English for 'luthier') that I've always gone to - Howard Morgan of San Domenico Stringed Instruments in Cardiff.
I though he'd be really pleased that I'd decided to go back to gut. Instead, he kind of looked down his nose at me and told me that gut strings were "old hat". He persuaded me to buy Eva Pirazzi (should have listened to you in the first place, Will
), which I did, but replaced the E with an Obligato gold E string. I have to say, they feel and sound great. I don't think I'll be going back to steel now. And the fine tuners do work with all the strings, though of course they don't make anywhere near the difference they would on steel strings.
Richard - for my older, English fiddle, I still think I'm going to stick to gut. And Golden Spiral solo is still my string of choice there. Though I may experiment with a gold E at some point.
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Good to hear this, Ben. Evah's with an Obligato E were what I ran on my fiddle for several years. Still like that set up, but the Visions are a lot cheaper and a tad warmer sounding on my fiddle, so I switched.
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
Not really on the subject but for the first time in my life tonight I broke a g string! (I've always wanted to say that). Serve me right really.
# Posted on October 26th 2008 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Help! Another fiddle string question
"Helicore," made by J. D'Addario works for me. They are warm, responsive, clear in tone and last.
# Posted on November 28th 2008 by Leendah