I would like the dots so they remind me of the tune once I've learnt it. I'm one of those people who sometimes forgets exactly how a tune goes even after I've learnt it so it's nice to have some physical copy of the tune there to help out.
Yes, I read, though not good enough to sight read. It has its uses.
A memory aid is a good one, though I try not to rely on it. I figure that if I forget a tune (which is rare) the tune deserves being forgotten.
And sometimes freinds send me tunes as dots. But only freinds who know my playing well enough to know how I will interpret. And I sometimes reciprocate.
I learned that first polka too, but It's not the common garden variety Glen Cottage polka. Later I found a similar-sounding reel in the Portland Collection called "The Indian". I'll look at the notes when I get home.
DJF, asking for the dots, and wanting a transcription of Burke's playing are two different things. And as Michael says, if you can suss out the difference, why not transcribe the tune from Kevin's playing? That's a very useful thing to do for your own improvement.
Airport, I will need the remainder before I get my head thru this degree I'm studying, I've realised my memory for tunes is not as good as it was before I started uni
From Llig: 'Why do you need the dots when you have a video of the music being played?'
Good sir Llig you are really priceless. You don't want people to use the dots because, it seems, they do not represent the 'traditional' way of learning ITM, but you want us all to learn from the video. The VIDEO!!!??? You mean that traditional and worthy medium? Oooh that is true irony. Do I need to continue?
I love it. You are truly an entertaining wind up. I've been enjoying your posts for a long time, and now I have my membership sorted out (thanks Jeremy) I won't rest until you admit to learning a tune or two by reading the dots in real time. If you want some help just ask. All you need is a knowledge of the alphabet from A to G, and an ability to count to twelve.
it's not whether dots are traditional or not. It's that this is largely an aural tradition. Most folk music is--we play it and learn it by ear. Using your ears is essential if you want to fit into any decent session. This music is different from genres played off the page (e.g., classical).
So rather than rely on the dots, learn to use and trust your ears. Ideally you'll learn tunes directly from other players, in person. But recordings (including videos) are okay. You'll be much more prepared to play in a session if you learn to pick up a tune from listening to a recording or video than by thumbing through reams of sheet music. In fact, if you can't learn and play by ear, all the sheet music in the world isn't going to help you sit in at a session.
If you don't understand this, and that it's *not* an outright condemnation of the dots (they have their utility), then you're plainly missing the point of this aural tradition, and perhaps of playing music at all.
Thanks for the transcription DJF - I'll need that reminder someday too. I was wrong about the title The Indian - it was called The Quarry Cross in The Portland Collection, and the notes say it came from The Fiddlecase Book of 101 Polkas by Jack Perron and Randy Miller. Good luck with the degree!
Yeah, I don't give two hoots whether anything is traditional or not. It's about having to use your ear. It's about using your ear being a prerequisite to being able to play.
It's about the fact that the amount of information present in the dots is only a tiny proportion of what is needed to be able to play. And that that tiny proportion is actually the easy bit. And if you are struggling getting that bit by ear alone, what chance have you with the rest of it?
I just prefer having the best of both worlds, Llig. I am very capable of learning a tune by ear. Maybe if I had posted this thread as "Where can I get the dots for this because I think learning it by ear is for freaks" then I would have thought your response relevant. If you have such an issue about dots then don't bother commenting on this thread, we all know how anal-retentive you are about learning by ear but what matters to me is how I want to learn the tune not how you think I should learn it.
I feel somewhat compelled to add my observation, simply my own impression, I admit:
Llig seems to feel that some vital musical abilities may be lost by not learning by ear, or by being overly dependant upon the "dots", or even using them more than necessary. Using your ear requires constant practice for most of us, and it is the most acurate way to pick up tunes as they are really played.
If you use any one method or skill all the time, you will naturally be neglecting others.
Therefore, using dots most of the time may have you picking up tunes in an antiseptic mechanical form, neglecting your ear-training, and possibly not retaining the tunes in your head as well as if you learned by ear.
Not to speak for you, Llig, as you do so quite well for yourself, but am I fairly on track as to yoru reasoning?
Also, I've heard from a few people who seem to be able to pick up tunes by ear fine, but learn a lot from dots because they are after uping their repertoir quickly. From your bio, it seems you are young, so I can understand that kind of thing. But impatience and this music don't make comfortable bed fellows
Answers should perhaps include the words, "you can find it here" or "You can't find it anywhere". These answers are relevant to the question.
Answers which aren't relevant include another question being asked in answer to the first question
e.g. Why do you need the dots when you have a video of the music being played?
What you have done, in effect, is hijack my thread by starting off your own discussion inside it. In future, why not click on "Submit your own discussion" and enter the title: "Why do you need the dots when you have a video of the music being played?" ?
Llig I'm sorry you mistoook my friendly banter for derision. You have a good point about the aural tradition of this music. During the last five years I've learned lots of music by ear, and I'm continuing to learn this skill, but I still think that written music has an important place. I taught myself to read and write music when i was a teenager, and when I started to learn and play Irish music the only source I had was notation. In fact I hadn't even heard several tunes before I played them off the page. This was very liberating for me. I have since adapted the way I play these tunes to fit in with how they're played at my session.
D.J.F. I didn't see your post about the hijack until after I posted my last reply. If you don't have any luck with the first tune on the video let me know and I'll write it out for you in standard notation.
Though if you transcribe it late at night you may get some comment from Will CPT that you are disrespecting the music if you think you should alternatively be sleeping.
DJ, You already had the direct answer to your question before my interjection.
Joel, No probs. This whole discussion is tiring for people who know the priceless value of using you ears. But every time, it needs going into again and again for those that don't yet know.
I wonder whether players who have learned by ear (but also happen to read dots) have an easier time picking up a tune (without having to refer to the dots) than players who have always learned by dots. If so - or if not - does it matter?
I also wonder whether players who have learned by ear have an easier time playing at a fast session pace, than those who have learned by dots. Again, does it matter?
As I said earlier: It's about the fact that the amount of information present in the dots is only a tiny proportion of what is needed to be able to play. And that that tiny proportion is actually the easy bit. And if you are struggling getting that bit by ear alone, what chance have you with the rest of it?
"...struggling to get that bit by ear alone, what chance have you with the rest of it?"
Are you saying that if you can't learn by ear you may as well not learn by dots?
Do you mean that some people can learn by ear and some people just can't?
(I wouldn't think that many would disagree with you that the dots are only a proportion of the tune.)
You must mean that "you can't play this music" other than that proportion provided by the dots, as you referred to.
If you can read and play the dots, you would be able to play it, provided you can play your instrument.
Hmm, I dunno. When you hear a classical player playing the tunes from the dots you wouldn't really say that they are playing a proportion of the music that's in the dots. Though technically they are, You'd really just say they are not playing it at all.
And it's not about being technically able on your instrument eaither, It's about the sound you make. Being able to read and play the dots, and have technical mastery on your instrument is not enough to play this music. The primary thing is that you have to hear it and translate what you hear into the sounds you make.
If people think that ITM should only be passed by ear then it will eventually die. I took up folk music in my late 30s. I didn't have the luxury of growing up in Ireland with the music all around me. There are few sessions where I live, so I have learned most of what I know by dots. Perhaps without dots my neighbours would have been happier over the past 7 years. However lets all value diversity and do it both ways. And if anyone has a magic wand I would love to be able to learn everything by ear - wave it please....
DD
Llig is quite right. Dots are merely an *approximation* at best ....they are the skeleton if you will of the tune.
There's no flesh, hair, smell, eyes. In other words, a skeleton. It isn't human. It's dead. But it can give you an idea of what a human might have been like [if you're a forensic pathologist or watch a lot of CSI].
And since tunes were created by living human beings why not listen to and/or watch human beings play the tunes as they were meant to be heard?\
Dots are not where it's at. They are merely an aide memoir...an archive if you will. And, as far as ITM or other trad musics go, they are ONLY a HINT of what's there.....we talk of this music as a "livining tradition"....
Consider this hypothetical scenario:
do you think the tradition would be alive if all the old/competient/current master musicians suddenly died out, passed on no tunes?...then, say 200 yrs later we found "the dots" and thought, "hey we can revive this music!"
it simply wouldn't happen. you can't reinvent a tradition from dots.....you need people to pass it on. not skeletons. dots are frozen tunes. they're dead. they're in the morgue. they're an archive at best.
you can't play ITM [correctly or with any insight and passion] from dots.
not "should only be passed by ear", but "can only be passed by ear". (However, recordings are not as good as playing with real people, but, if you are carfull, can surfice.)
You simply cannot learn the music from a book. It's as simple as that. If more and more people think they can learn it from a book, then it's dead already
If a classical player is playing from the dots "you'd really just say they are not playing it at all". I can't imagine many people saying that in relation to classical music Michael, and maybe even Irish trad, but I may be completely wrong there.
I tend to think you try to cover a lot of ground in a short time, Michael, on this topic, maybe too much for many intending players - especially those used to learning other music from dots, and that causes a fair bit of misunderstanding.
To many, I think, it won't matter whether they learn by ear or from dots, but the relative merits and advantages of each method will matter quite a bit.
I say this from the perspective of thinking that adding a visual step in the process viz 'learning from dots' to what could well be regarded, and is in reality an aural learning experience in playing traditional Irish music, makes a difference when trying to play at fast pace - but I am not sure. I think it is an important difference in results of each learning method, depending on one's goals when learning the music.
You will no doubt have additional views on other aspects of the music are missed by dot-learning.
So if dots are so important or necessary to learning and playing why not then have music stands etc at sessions? Why? Because "dots" are antithetical to the spirit and approach of traditional music.
Would you want someone shuffling through piles of music paper [as most of us here have seen done probably at some session or other during or apprenticeship in this music] at a session? Anyone who has seen someone doing so can tell you how futile it is....while you're on tune #3 he/she is still rummaging thru their pile of dots.
Not only is it annoying, it's dumb. It's also rather anti-social to boot and is somewhat insulting to the other members of the sesh.
This reminds me of a quote I once saw in a novel about Brian Boru. In reference to his son, it was said: "He had the technical ability to play a series of notes in a particular order, but he couldn't play music."
"If people think that ITM should only be passed by ear then it will eventually die."
That's asinine!
There are loads of kids learning the music by ear all around the world, and it's certainly in no danger of dying. The reverse, that if everybody only learned from sheet music, irish music would die, is quite true, though.
Llig and mtodd, your points, which may be valid to some extent, are not put across well when you make such ridiculous spelling errors, I do hope your lack of care and attention in your writing is not similarly displayed in your playing.
mtodd, I don't know whether if the music was only handed on by dots it would be dead, rather than likely have what "makes" the music, redefined. To use your analogy, perhaps, if a skeleton was to walk down the street it would do so with perhaps a fair degree of rattle, and quite a different noise to a skeleton with flesh, hair, eyes, and even shoes!
I know this topic has been overdone, but to me, the argument doesn't generally get the best out of the question. There is a very good consideration I think as to the difference in learning from dots as opposed to learning by ear, but I think it gets missed a lot of the time.
Before going on to consider what is *missed* in the music by learning from dots viz a viz learning by ear, what advantage is there, apart from that consideration, if any, to learning by ear in this music.
DJF: Really? ....mea culpa. Time heals all wounds. Whatever it was I've forgotten and now must concentrate 100% on my grammar and spelling so as not to upset Ionannas and the commakaze police! ;)
"Before going on to consider what is *missed* in the music by learning from dots viz a viz learning by ear, what advantage is there, apart from that consideration, if any, to learning by ear in this music."
Well, you sort of answered your own question DD. If you *miss* a lot of the music by learning via dots, why would you want to learn from dots?
I mean, learning music, any music, is all about, surely, playing it well and authentically and with depth and an understanding of the possible sounds/colours inherent in it etc etc etc.
I enjoy seeing this topic come up regularly, because it means newcomers are joining us. Here's how I see the question;
What to Real Book tunes, Bach partitas, and ITM have in common?
Each have their own style. If that style is missing in your playing, you will sound like a rank beginner. Sheet music is most important in classical music; less important in jazz; and useful but not necessary in ITM; but the listening component is essential to all three.
I can play all nine Beethoven symphonies within the style on my doublebass, but still can't get Lark In The Morning to sound like I think it should. I think the classical musician has the biggest adjustment to make.
Llig says "scribble out the dots" and that is very good advice.
If you write it down with your own hand you will actually be reenforcing your memory. It will help you more in the long run than finding a copy of someone else's writting.
then you'll have the sheet music be right since you wrote down what you actually heard when you learned it by ear.
it will help you music copying skills, too, since you'll need to read your own handwriting.
This horse has been beaten to death but I will add to the chorus of posters insisting that you simply cannot learn to play this music correctly unless you learn by ear and listen, listen, listen. If you know the music inside out and learn a tune from sheet music because you haven't a recording for whatever reason, then fine. But if you haven't already internalized the music and you are relying on notation to learn how to play it, then you will struggle to make progress.
Claiming that you learned as an adult and didn't grow up around the music so therefore need dots is really not an excuse. Sorry if that seems harsh, but lots of people on this website, including myself, came to the music as adults and learned how to play by ear as part of the whole education process. Can you become fluent in a foreign language if all you can do is read it?
haha, DJF. I know it is a risk, but in listening to a lot of discussions on this topic in this forum, I still can't find the answer to whether, even if you learned a lot of tunes from dots, you'd be able to keep up the pace at a fast session. Whether that matters or not probably depends on the goals of the learner, and I accept that learning just from dots misses a lot of the music.
Apart from those additional things, I tend to think that at some point as the beats per minute of the music ramps up, at different sessions, or within the same session, that differences and limitations may well start to become apparent if you have learned primarily from dots. That might be an important aspect to people who ultimately want to play at sessions if they are learning from dots. Of course, if the person only ever wants to play other than at a session then it mightn't be a problem at all.
To me, learning this music has parallels with other aural skills where visualisation and a related reliance on "memory" as an intermediate step in the learning (and playing) process is regarded, and correctly, as a stumbleblock to proficient playing at speed.
Irish trad, correct me if I'm wrong, is an aural musical tradition, so how does learning from dots sit with that? Would you be giving yourself a disadvantage learning that way, which won't really be apparent to you until you try to play with people who have learned by ear? (It won't if you are playing with a whole lot of people who have similarly learned tunes from dots I wouldn't imagine, allowing of course, for llig is saying about a whole proportion of the tune being missed by learning from dots.)
Well put Greg. On another point....the classical scores I've seen of my kids [they play piano] seem to me pretty complicated to say the least. There is LOTs of direction on timbre, time, and this and that. I've seen some classical violin scores that would boggle the mind....they are Greek to me. But as far as I can tell they obviously communicate *a great deal* about how the music is/should be played.
I have another friend who is a classical guitarist. His scores are insane and his teacher adds even more handwritten notation. My point being, perhaps in a 'classical' world scores are seen as and are, in fact, necessary. It's hugely complicated music. And no doubt it's a feat to memorize that....
Now, to ITM. Are we not essentially dealing with 'simple' melodies? For the most part I think we are. But it is the embelishment of that music, via many different kinds [and takes on] the various ornaments that breathes life into those "simple" melodies.
You can't annotate the subtle bowing patterns [which change each time a really good player repeats the same phrase again in a tune] that occur. If you did, you wouldn't be able to see the dots for the trees...so to speak.
Irish music if full of hugely complex changes that are constantly re-occurring with each pass through the tune.
How can dots possibly convey that? To say nothing of the micro tuning and a zillion other things that are going on in amazing players like Patrick Kelly or The Raineys et al.
Having said that, I often use dots to work out some bowing patterns...but that's all. It's merely a mnemonic device until those patterns get under the fingers...and I often change my mind. But I work out the patterns WHILE LISTENING TO A LIVE RECORDING...because I want to understand what the player is doing...
so I'm not learning from the dots. I'm using my ears.
There is a differance between learning a tune from the dots, and trying to learn a type of music from the dots.
A style can only be learnt by listening, a tune, on the other hand, can be picked up from the dots merely by learning to read. They are different issues. I don't think anyone is saying its desirable to learn a style of music without actually listening to it.
However , we only have recorded evidence of Irish trad for a relatively few years. Who knows how it was performed 200 yrs ago, we can only guess.
Style of performance, the crux of the matter, is a separate issue to the tunes performed. Is anyone suggesting that we can learn how to play trad authentically from listening to a CD of Kila?
Every generation plays the music as they choose, Its a living tradition, It changes. Style of performance varies from person to person, village to village. A highly ornamented style may be appropriate in one area, and not in another.
I don't really see it as an "either/or" sort of thing.
I learn tunes by ear off a record or from a friend, and use the sheet music in the tunes section here as a memoriztion aide.
But I studied music at a university, so I was already able to read. Why not put to use a skill I already have?
But I draw the line at "learning" a tune solely from the dots. That just doesn't work. If you try and play it with someone who learned it for real, you'll probably be in for a big surprise.
so sheet music can help, but it also can be a crutch. You have to be able to play without any paper.
"Are we not essentially dealing with 'simple' melodies?"
What I have found as a result of learning some tunes by ear and some tunes from dots over the years is that the tunes I learned by ear I can play without *hesitation* at a fastish session. Those I learned from dots I generally cannot play at that speed, because there is a hesitation in there somewhere which I think is coming from my attempt to *remember* a visualisation of the dots before *translating* that them to notes.
There seems to be an extra step in the process created when you learn from dots which only really becomes apparent when you try to play over a certain number of beats per minute.
Dots are dead inky approximations on paper of something that *was* alive and existed in time while it was being played....[and perhaps someone was listening]
In Itm's case, dots are -- at best -- an adjunct to, not a replacement for listening.
Flogging a dead horse is basically all education is, isn't it? Well, at least for the teachers. You have to drag the thing out from behind the barn and wack the stuffing out of the poor thing every day, pretty much. There's always someone who hasn't seen you do it yet.
This is what usually happens in these threads...there are two arguments happening, one is about the inability of dots to convey style, etc, etc, of the tune, the other, which I don't think is generally raised, is the limitation(s) and/or disadvantage(s) of dot-learning, if any, viz-z-viz learning by ear in a genre that is essentially an aural tradition, and at what point the disadvantages, rather than the stylistic differences, become apparent when playing with other people who have learned by ear - if that is what you want to do. If you don't, then it won't matter a jot to you probably.
What usually happens in the session threads is that the original topic gets hijacked by the same old members which reel everyone in so it becomes a confusing jumble of posts. It's S H I T quite frankly
A little experimental theory I'm part way through here. I am trying to learn two new tunes. I want to learn it by ear rather than dots. (I can read dots ok.)
I download a tune which I really like (cause I'm gonna have to play it over and over ad nauseam), from this website. I download the sheetmusic for one tune from this site, and the midi file for the other tune from this site. I also use an excellent metronome site (hear me out) that someone kindly posted in a thread here somewhere: http://www.metronomeonline.com/
I mentally note how long it takes me to learn the tune, just the skeleton of it, from the dots compared to learning the second tune from the midi file. Maybe there isn't a difference for these two particular tunes. Then I try to play it against a slow speed on the metronome at that website. At slow beats per minute maybe there isn't any difference in being able to play both tunes. Then I start uping the beats per minute, until one tune starts to fall apart - is it the dot-learned one, or the ear-learned one.
That's where I'm up to. I think I will find that I will be able to play the ear-learned tunes at faster beats per minute quicker than I will be able to play the dot-learned ones at the same speed. Maybe I will find that over a certain speed, I just can't quite get the dot-learned ones (or some of the harder ones) right at all, and I have hit a plateau or something.
It won't matter if I only ever want to play those particular tunes at those slower beats per minute, or if I go to a session and they're playing those ones at a higher speed, I will just sit those ones out and have a listen.
I am by no means an accomplished player, I am sure, but I am very interested in the means and method to learn this music by ear.
I'd put aside the metronome until you can play all the notes in order, slowly, even if it's out of rhythm. Then you can add the metronome. The longer you spend at the very slow stage, the better you will develop the "finger memory".
To me, it doesn't matter how you learn the tune, as long as you practice it very slowly for a long time first. You are training the muscles to respond, and you will eventually be able to play it at a fast tempo.
Oooh crikey ... itr's not an argument about using your ears specifically, against using sheet music. It's an argument about using a source that is woefully inedequate in the amount of information that it contains, against the real thing.
The horrid horrid midi thing is just another way presenting the exact same amount of information that is the abc or the tadpoles. Avoid at all costs
Yes, Greg, I believe you are right. I do that actually, don't use the metronome until I have a reasonable finger memory of the tune.
If I slow down the "analysis metronome" to what I am doing when I try to learn these tunes, I note that when I look at the dots, I am having to say "oh right, I see that that dot represents A, and now here it is on my instrument" (to me, that is two mental steps and takes slightly longer to do, than hear the note on the midi file and *translate* that to a finger position.
(I know this sounds ridiculously analytical, but I am trying to slow down the mental process to observe it.) It sounds funny, I know.
It seems quicker and easier for me to get the tune down even very slowly from the midi file than from the dots, and even feel sometimes that the dots are *getting in the way*.
If there are two mental steps in the dot-learning process and it creates a reliance on translating a type of visualised memory of a tune to the instrument, and if it creates a hesitation at a very slow speed, how much more would that hesitation be apparent at a high speed, and would it make me hit a wall.
I have read somewhere on this forum that there is a view that professional players can play around ten beats per minute faster than non-professional players (not that speed is the criteria of professionalism, don't get me wrong, someone just raised it on this site is all). I wonder whether there is any significant difference between the number of professional players, for example, who learned from dots compared to those who learned by ear.
To me, that is a very central consideration around the dots -v- ear learning processes.
I don't learn from midi files, Michael, it is something that I have used once recently to try to get a handle on what differences I experience learning by ear compared to learning from dots.
For me, there is a difference, and I prefer to learn by ear, although when I started learning years ago, there wasn't much information around about the difference.
Of course, midi files are inadequate to learn from, totally agree.
"Oooh crikey ... itr's not an argument about using your ears specifically, against using sheet music. It's an argument about using a source that is woefully inedequate in the amount of information that it contains, against the real thing."
Actually, Michael, what I get from these discussions are two arguments, at the very least, to use your descriptors:
1. an argument about using your ears specifically against using sheet music;
2. an argument about using a source that is woefully inadequate in the amount of information that it contains, against the real thing.
and other arguments about the inability of dots to convey stylistic considerations.
Ah interesting, so lligs argument has got nothing to do with learning by ear, or learning by sight from the dots!
Its about the source. So tell me, its not Ok by you, to learn by ear from a beginner who has only has the bones of a tune, but it is ok to learn from a heavily notated transcription of Willie Clancy playing?
I think what it boils down to is that this is music. You have to use your ears. The better you learn to listen, the better you'll eventually be able to play this music. Relying on the dots hinders learning to listen.
If you don't agree with that, then try learning to paint blindfolded and see how well you do.
Will is right. And if I don't tear myself away from reading these posts, I'll never get any work done. It's a day off for me and my garage roof needs reshingling...
But, Will, some people are going to think that learning from dots is actually training their ears, especially those who have only ever learned music from dots. They will likely think, when they interpret a dot and translate it to their instrument and hear the sound, that that is no different and just as good (if not better) than "learning by ear" i.e. "learning without dots".
I don't think the argument as it usually pans out in these threads gets to the real point, which I think is closer to "why is it better to learn without dots, and what are the limitations later in playing the music having learned from dots - in addition to stylistic omissions."
If you are already familiar with the music of Willie Clancy, then you could probably have a decent stab at getting something reasonable out of a heavily notated transcription of Willie Clancy.
And if you are familiar with the music in general, it's relativeley straight forward to create a tune from a poor beginners bones.
If you are not familiar with the music in general, both sources will be hopeless
Dubh, past threads have covered that ground in painstaking detail.
FWIW, the dots can only tell you what the tune sounds like ***if you already know what the music sounds like because you've listened to it a lot and carefully.***
The odd thing to me is that DJF was just being lazy in starting this thread. He has the ability to suss a tune out by ear, and to transcribe it. He just didn't want to "waste" his time--apparently preferring to waste someone else's.
Can you remember what time it was when I posted this discussion? It was very late, I decided to post a discussion and then check it in the morning to see if there were any results. I then realised that there wasn't the helpful group of people online that I had been hoping for, therefore I had a go at transcribing it myself. I wasn't being lazy, I was just prioritising my sleep over transcribing a tune at the point of me submitting this discussion.
IMHO, from reading the thread, it's the defensive tone that has riled folks up.
"I need the dots coz I know that it annoys you Michael.
Will yes I do and I checked only to find that the dots don't follow the tune do they? Burke goes down to a low B and the sesh tune doesn't."
So then use your ears and change the notation.
"Can you read music Michael? If so, why?" point?
When one pokes something with a stick, one is bound to get a reaction. not a surprise.
I think this website has alot to answer for with the face of ITM it presents, and the worst aspect is the ready accessibility to score or midi of tunes, which can only enhance the propagation of tune learning by those mechanisms, especially in beginners. Only to a certain extent is that likely to be tempered by revealing discussions of this type. For that reason I don't think that this discussion can be done to death... ...the more it reappears, the more likely beginners will assimilate an attitude appropriate to the music they are beginning to engage with.
ITM should be learnt in the context of sessions, one to one transmission, and some recordings too. Score doesn't reveal the morass of information that is going on in the music of a player worth emulating. The nuance and subtlety of ornamentation, slurring, emphasis / weight length of note, phrasing, rhythm, swing and timing are all information that is not portrayed at all in score or midi. Indeed, I believe that many of these things are best learnt almost subconsciously. While conscious learning of them is possible, the requirement of the conscious act in the face of such large musical information can distort reality and produce a result which isn't quite what it should be. For example, i've noticed some players who have heavy emphasis on beat 1 and 3 (in a reel) so much so that the notes of 2 and 4 are contracted and lightened so much they are almost not heard, and certainly not given their due emphasis, and the reason given for the emphasis of beats 1 and the 3 is to emulate the swing that they've heard in some recordings. The point is, in this case, the conscious interpretation has lead to playing that betrays a decontextualisation from other important stylistic facets integral to the music, so much so that the whole thing becomes a caricature of itself.
I'm not saying conscious learning isn't possible, but it comes back to what was said somewhere else about truly "hearing" what's going on, not just thinking that you are "listening" and then imposing your own view of what you believe the reality is on your own playing.
There is no 'should' about it. This music defies all boundaries beginners such as yourself can put upon it. Were you John Kelly I would consider your words carefully.
People can offer their help as they so often do, or not. Its their free choice.
ionannas ~ this is the session.org Saying (in this forum), "ITM should be learned in the context of sessions . . ." Seems like a good starting point. I.M.H.O.
I'm not someone who is obsessed or believes in some historical authenticity that can be rigorously appealed to and retrogressively applied. However, I don't go the other way... ....to p*ss on ITM and say anything goes and anyone's view is valid whatever it is. Sure the argument needs to stand up to scrutiny, which is why mine and your view are being posted on a public forum for that necessary scrutiny. To say "ITM should" is to say that there is some essence or nature of ITM that someone can at least attempt to grasp - it is to say that it is a reality and not merely a feather in a hurricane!
So your saying ITM should be learnt here? ;- ) this is the session right? Im joking, but its about as valid as saying ITM should be learnt in sessions!
ITM is learnt in many situations, to say one is right and one wrong starts creating boundaries. So if I said ITM 'should' be learnt in Ireland, or in Boston, or in a farmhouse in west Clare etc would that be 'the session speaking'? No Its just one opinion of many. Its just an opinion , and I disagree.
This music is best handed along person to person, face to face, playing or lilting it. That's essential to making this music what it is.
Other methods of transmission tend to dilute that immediate, aural essence, but they are a fact of life (and of the tradition) now. They can be useful, but they must be a secondary (or tertiary) means to pass this music along if we're to sustain any ties to the generations of musicians before us.
Some people don't care about keeping that generational musical thread alive. Some do. It's up to those who do to speak up. We can't force anyone to follow the musical thread, but we can offer the opportunity for those so inclined.
To say ITM should is clearly to invoke an ethical dimension. Denying the word "should" should ever be used is to say that no ethical dimension need ever be invoked in the approach to and propagation of ITM. I believe strongly that ITM does have an essential nature, which is the thing that attracted me to want to participate, learn and immerse myself in it. To say no "shoulds" need ever apply is to say that even if you could fathom some essential characteristics of what ITM is, you couldn't give a rats ass whether you ignore that and do everything your own way irrespective of it. All you are doing is denying what you purport to love.
Its like the uni. music choir I was at some 9 years ago which existed to work towards (on a term by term basis) a serious substantial piece of classical music, for example, the Mozart Requiem - such was explicitly described in its society description. This is did okay for a while. However, the uni. choir existed outwith a formal music department and the director wanted only to perform what the students wanted to learn. As time went on, more and more people joined the choir who didn't bother to learn the music in their own time and so found rehersals frustrating. However, they still wanted to come and join in and be apart of the musical experience. What happened was they started exerting their view that they wanted to learn easier music which they already knew, and the director acquiesced . The result was a reasonably well respected uni. choir, capable of performing substantial musical pieces ended up becoming a choir performing minimalistic arrangements of well know pop songs, and found itself quite incapable of putting a good term by term performance even of them. It was a crying shame...
Put another way: I learned some tunes directly from Kevin Burke, in his Portland apartment decades ago. He in turn had learned them directly from Bobby Casey. Bobby had learned them from his father, Scully.
That line of transmission has far more content and meaning to it than any collection of sheet music or cd recording could ever hope to hold.
Thankfully, some people still pass along the music this way.
'The nuance and subtlety of ornamentation, slurring, emphasis / weight length of note, phrasing, rhythm, swing and timing are all information that is not portrayed at all in score or midi.'
Sure but what if I learn a tune from dots that I've never heard before and then add all those things myself? Is that OK? Who's to say that the subtlety of ornamentation etc. that I'll hear at a session is correct anyway? Why should a load of (mainly) English players in an English pub claim to be doing these things authentically, just because they've learnt a tune by ear in the style that predominates at their session?
If you're an interested musician you can learn a tune from notation and try to breathe your own life into it. It's the same with classical music notation. It's a guide and (often complicated) framework. Once you have the framework sorted out, you can then start to add your own articulation, expression, phrasing etc. It's called interpretation, and it's what I did here:
''To say no "shoulds" need ever apply is to say that even if you could fathom some essential characteristics of what ITM is, you couldn't give a rats ass whether you ignore that and do everything your own way irrespective of it.''
That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But what happens if an essential aspects of ITM is the lack of 'should'? Who says what should be and what shouldn't? You, me? Tansy? who? UL? UCC ?
DJF -youre getting very snipey in your comments. I just have to say - if you want to know how to play this type of music then you take comments of people who know what they are on about on board. You dont go around telling people not to post on your thread when they were clearly trying to help you out. If you dont take these comments on board you may just turn into a session wrecker. I know which of the two I would rather be.
Ionannas - spelling mistakes....really??? Really - I'd rather be a good musician than a good speller. This is after all a music site. I mean - jesus - I had no idea that one had to be good at grammar to play this music well. Tut tut - I half wonder if you have any clue what you are on about and this is going off all the posts you have put on this site. But dont worry mate. At least you can spell, and that is all that matters. I'm sure your session mates are jumping for joy.
Nice playing Joel. I mean, really stellar and enjoyable.
But fingerpicking jigs on a guitar doesn't draw as heavily on the tradition as playing fiddle or pipes, eh? You *have* to come up with your own interpretations because you're taking a non-trad instrument and approach to the music.
From what I heard, you're succeeding. Great stuff. But that's a very different path from what most people on this site are doing at sessions.
Joel, you quote a very important point, a point that is the nuts and bolts of the argument. It's well worth repeating ... again:
'The nuance and subtlety of ornamentation, slurring, emphasis / weight length of note, phrasing, rhythm, swing and timing are all information is not portrayed at all in score or midi.'
However, you then ask a question:
"Sure, but what if I learn a tune from dots that I've never heard before and then add all those things myself? Is that OK?"
This is a difficult one. Of course you are free to do what ever you want, but, it introduces what Jamie refers to as the "ethical dimension". It's an important point. Do we owe it to the music to be true to it? What does being true to it mean? It's a double edged sword ... to allow freedom of creation for the individual and yet demand respect for the music.
I think it boils down to ego. Traditional Irish music is ego free. The best of it has the overriding respect for the myriad of personal contributions over the ages that have created it. You put the music first, not your own personal contribution to it. And this means you have to learn it properly. Learn how it has been played and learn how it is played by the best proponents of it now.
So, Joel, you say:
"If you're an interested musician you can learn a tune from notation and try to breathe your own life into it."
Yes ... you can. But for it to be "the music", a mere interest is not enough. To be able to take a tune from notation and create "the music" from it takes a great deal more than mere interest. It takes a real long lasting study.
And ... and I'm not trying to disparage your music, as I said, you are free to do what ever you want ... but your "Interpretation", as you put it, on your www.myspace.com/joelmcdermottmusic is not the music.
Thank you Will for your kind comments. I'll send you a copy of my album when it's finally done! With a few exceptions, I played all the other instruments on those recordings including the guitar (accepted in sessions during the late 1960s/70s) the Irish tenor banjo (played in its current form in Irish sessions since the 1960s following the massive success of the Dubliners) and the mandolin (played in Irish session since the turn of the last century, albeit in bowl-back form in those days).
I've heard, and I could be wrong about this, that the fiddle and pipes, at least the modern pipes, are not traditional Irish instruments at all. The fiddle as we know it came from Italy and the modern pipes have changed beyond recognition in the last hundred years or so with the introduction of various knobs and levers, of which I know nothing about.
You have a very good point: yes I have had to come up with my own interpretation the music, but not just because I play instruments that are not necessarily traditional. It was because I was doing it all on my own. I simply didn't have other people around me to tell me what was right or wrong. Sure I had recordings etc. and I went to festivals and concerts. Now I am lucky to have found a group of like-minded musicians/friends at my session who have shown me new ways of doing things. The greatest skill I have learnt from them is the ability to listen. It's the key to any music. I don't feel like I want to prove anything about my musicianship when I play with other people. All I want to do to do is fit in and add something to the harmonious whole. I love to improvise to with this in mind, and I would never dream of taking dots to the session. I tried it once a few years ago and it was a total flop!
Lllig you are quite right, but I have never claimed to play 'the music'. I wouldn't dare to presume that I have some sort of handle on traditional Irish music. I just like the tunes, and I like to record my own versions of them. I also like to play other sorts of music: in my own time, my own style, and on my own terms. I love to listen, to interpret and to jam with other people. I don't care much for authenticity, whatever that means. Although I am a staunch defender of notation, I also love to improvise. Most of the stuff I've recorded has been improvisation based on things I've heard or read. I love that kind of spontaneity. I tend to read/play the melody and try to paint a picture around it with other instruments. I believe that when I play music I am speaking from my soul. Deep inside my soul. Apart from my day job (writer) It's the only chance I get.
"You put the music first, not your own personal contribution to it"
I like that. I didn't think DJF deserved quite the keelhauling he received. On a different day someone might have posted the correct link to the tune he was after and he could have gone to sleep.
Sorry Will - I wasn't directing that comment at you. I guess my point was that you often get responses here based on the collective mood of the place (just like a real session!)
bb the only advice people were giving me were basically that "sheetmusic is wrong" so in fact they weren't helping out since the question involved finding some sheetmusic.
yes - but the fact that you cant learn a tune by ear shows that you need to work at it - not rely on sheet music. That is help..telling you to learn by ear and not notes is help, youre just choosing not to listen.
DJF, the fact that you prioritized sleep over "bothering to transcribe the tune" points to the fact that you prefer the dots to an actual audio source of a tune. If you need a memory aid to remember the tune (because your university courses are overloading your brain.... just wait til you get to the real world, my friend...), then why not just keep a bookmark to the youtube link?
(OK, I'm getting on your case a bit... I like to keep dots to everything I have learned too, although, I have stopped caring if the dots are the same setting that I learned, because I have learned to be more fluid with my settings of tunes.)
But the fundamental argument here is really the difference between using dots to learn a tune vs. trying to use dots to learn the music. And my personal take on it is that you *can't* solely use dots to learn the music. And while you *can* use dots to learn a tune, once you're at least semi-proficient in the music, why would you do that if you have an audio source?
This has been a very interesting thread. Yes, the topic comes up often. There are now 49,996 members. Let's see how many new members will have joined us, the next time a dots vs. ears thread arises, so we can approximate how many new musicians will need to sort this all out.
Is it a dots vs ears argument at all?
It appears to be a source argument masquerading as a ears argument. It seems that llig is saying you can only play trad if you listen and learn from the'' Acceptable sources''. Its not an argument against dots per se.
I think learning a tunes bones from any source is perfectly acceptable. be it a classical player or midi. How you play that tune is a matter of personal style. I don't like 'classical' interpretations, my own taste.
Is there a right way to play trad? IMO many different right ways, and many different wrong ways. That's my opinion. its valid for me, no one else, although others might agree.
As far as I can see part of the argument, at least, boils down to what do we listen to? How do we play the tunes we have learnt. Do we play in a traditional styles, or play in 'other' styles.
Its not an argument about learning tunes by ear, because llig has clearly said that learning tunes by ear from midi is unacceptable to him. Its an argument over how do we learn to play the finer details found in good players rendition. That is clear enough as a transcription of Willie Clancy's playing is acceptable.
IMO the obvious answer to this is to suggest a listening list for people. how they pick up the bones is not relevant, its how we put flesh on these bones. where we get tunes is not so relevant as to how we perform them and the finer details.
So here's a start; Listening list . The 'right way ' to play trad[ IMO;
The star above the Garter;.Dennis Murphy and Julia Clfford
Trad music of Ireland; Kathleen Collins
Traditional Irish Accordion; Tony MacMahon
Memories of Clare; Bobby Gardiner
Anything by; Seamus Creagh, fiddle
Irish traditional concertina styles; comp
Clare concertinas; Bernard O Sullivan and Tommy MacMahon
Irish traditional concertina and fiddle music; John Kelly
Traditional accordion and concertina music from Sliabh Luacra.; Jackie Daly
Kerry fiddles;Padraig O'Keefe, J Clifford, D Murphy
The piping of Seamus Ennis
The pipering of Willie Clancy
The piping of Johnny Doran
I hope others can offer their suggestions based on other regional styles.
Yes, I'm keen to move this on, and recommendations of what to listen too is a good idea. However, I'm not keen on your reference to "the fine details". It makes it sound like a sprinkling of something, a mere adjunct. I would much rather describe it as the meat and potatoes of the music.
A couple of things though, I said that learning a tune from a transcription of Willie Clancy's playing is only acceptable if you are already very familiar with his style (though it stands to reason that it would be much better to go back to the original source recording, if you can). And I'd like to reiterate that, if you are able to put flesh on bones, then you can learn tunes from dots. Though to say that it's not relevant whether you learn them off real people or off sheet music misses the vital importance of knowing how it's actually played by other musicians.
So ... your list is a good list. I'd like to ad:
Tommy Peoples for fiddle
Finbar Fury for pipes
Matt Molloy and Cathal McConnell for flute
Mary Bergin for whistle
So I think we can agree that if someone is unfamiliar with traditional Irish music its wise to listen to lots of traditional performers such as we recomend. That way they can get a better feel for the music.
Unfortunately, sometimes this is not enough! Recently I lent a John Vesey CD to a fiddler who has a distinctly classical and Germanic sound, Hoping that he might get the message. Nope, he returned it saying he didn't like his style! OMG!
Its quite obvious to me that this is a lost cause for some. I hasten to add he has learnt a lot of his tunes by ear, not from the dots. By ear in sessions in Germany, if I am not mistaken...
So this brings me back to Joel's point above;
>>Why should a load of (mainly) English players in an English pub claim to be doing these things authentically, just because they've learnt a tune by ear in the style that predominates at their session?>>
Exactly.
Learning by ear is a handy skill but it bears no relation to how the music 'should' be performed, that all depends on who you learn the tunes from.
bb if you'd've cared to read my posts in this discussion you would have managed to work out that I wanted the dots solely as a REMINDER of the tune once I'd learnt it. I did not say I rely on sheetmusic to learn tunes, far from it, I can learn tunes by ear just as well as anybody on this site.
Might I suggest a separate post [Llig? or Ionannas?]
titled something like "A Recommended List for Listeners"...not a great title...but something like that?
cut and paste what we've got so far but make it a new post. that way it's fresh and easier to find perhaps for new members, beginners, and old timers alike.
? just a thought/suggestion...
I'll add:
-Kathleen Collins for fiddle
-The Raineys for fiddle in their own unique style & duo playing/live setting etc
-James Kelly's solo cd for fiddle for his amazing styling and clean playing
-Chieftans vols.1-4 only. Lots of good basic tunes [i'm not a fan otherwise] as a resource for oldies but goodies commonly played still
-Patrick Kelly from Cree cd for his virtuoso fiddling in the old vein
-ditto for Joe Ryan [solo cd]
-and perhaps anything by Bobby Casey and Tommy Potts [fiddle] again for their virtuosity and playing with temperament
OK, let me enter the fray and submit the 140th+ post to this thread.
Has *anyone* who has 'contributed' above actually heard Dan play? I had the pleasure of playing with him in a York (UK) session a few weeks ago. Let me assure you, this guy can Play! (As fast as anyone I've heard, too, but that's not very important). We played a couple of tunes he hadn't played before, and by the 2nd or 3rd time through, he'd got them. If he wants some dots, so be it. If there's anyone who can 'flesh out a tune from the dots' it's DJ. As for being 'in a rush', I think DJ is just really keen: he loves this music - in fact I can't remember the last time I came across someone so enthusiastic about it.
It is important actually, If you want to be able to play in session, you need to be able to play up to speed otherwise you will be left sitting there stumped.
The only problem DJF has mentioned is people coming in to preach their doctrine! A simple request for the dots leads to another discussion of the benefits of ear learning. This one however has clarified some of the issues for me at least.
Ion - sorry - what I meant by 'not very important' was not being able to play fast (yes - that's important), but the fact that DJF can play as fast as anyone I've heard (not so imporant!)
I'm not questioning Dan's playing abilities. But his attitude either sucks or is just poorly represented by his posts on this thread.
He wanted the dots as a reminder of how to play this polka. Since he's perfectly capable of transcribing the dots from the video clip himself (as he did), why ask others to do it for him? And if he's such a quick study, who the hell cares whether he does it before he goes to sleep or after he wakes up the next morning?
Why is it anyone's responsibility but his own to learn this tune? And then he gets all sassy when people question his motives. I don't care how well he plays, Dan has some growing up to do.
Kind of begs the question really...I mean, if he's such a quick study and has tunes down he's never heard by the 2nd or 3rd time thru [and can play them at lightening speed]...why DOES he need the dots at all?
If he 'can' play that well by EAR he doesn't need the dots, or to bother members here to do his homework for him.
jeez lads, its no bother.... why don't you get of your high horse! if you don't want to help, thats fine , if you do, thats fine. what's with the trips?
Ion, consider the initial request. For someone who claims to learn by ear so well, he couldn't even suss out the names of the polkas on the clip--and Kevin says them very clearly.
I tried to help and Dan can't even be bothered to acknowledge that.
Will you tried to help, failed, then had a pop at my laziness coz I wanted to have the dots for the tune. Fancy posting an incorrect, unhelpful to the OP link then having the cheek to call me lazy. It's not on, all I wanted was some dots, but when I realised I wasn't going to get that, I had a go at transcribing it, something I'm not that good at. Only then I get slated by slainte coz posted it on the link YOU Gave me.
Yeah it's all very well trying to help, I tried to look for the tune here, only finding the one you posted as the first response. Didn't you yourself notice that the dots weren't following the tune on the video? Does it really matter to you how I learn the tune? I just want to get a broader range of tunes that I can play, what's the harm in that?
"Kind of begs the question really...I mean, if he's such a quick study and has tunes down he's never heard by the 2nd or 3rd time thru [and can play them at lightening speed]...why DOES he need the dots at all?" ~ mtodd
Once again I'm repeating myself, mtodd did you read one of my previous posts?
"I would like the dots so they remind me of the tune once I've learnt it. I'm one of those people who sometimes forgets exactly how a tune goes even after I've learnt it so it's nice to have some physical copy of the tune there to help out." ~ D.J.F.
Domnull it was a pleasure to find out your true indentity in that session, that probably was the reason why I played so fast and furious that night, I was happy!
Dan, it all comes back to whether you're willing to use your own ears, eh? How did you ever suss out the notes if you couldn't even hear Kevin giving the names of the tunes? You want someone else to transcribe the tune because you're "not that good" at it? Well put your brain in gear and learn. How do you think the rest of us did it?
Drop the smarmy sense of entitlement and maybe you'd get some friendly help around here.
P.S. I can't help it that so many tunes are posted here under erroneous spellings. You've complained about missing sleep over this. It was 2 a.m. here when I gave you the names and links for the two polkas.
this one intrigues me:
"I'm one of those people who sometimes forgets exactly how a tune goes even after I've learnt it"
Everyone forgets tunes sometimes. I'm cursed in that I rarely do. However, when I do forget a tune I take it squarely on the chin and put it down to the tune was not worth remembering.
I know too many tunes. I wish I knew fewer. I'm not that old, mid 40s, but I'm looking forward to the day when I can claim senility
Just because you haven't given me any friendly help Will doesn't mean I don't get any 'around here'. The reason I even submitted this thread was because of the high number of friendly helpful folk there are on this site. I didn't force you to reply to my thread at 2 am, that was down to your own choice, as it was mine to ask if any transcriptions this version of the tune existed.
Ah I agree on that Llig, but sometimes I reckon it can be down to having so much other stuff squashed up inside my head and knowing tunes that are similar to each other that causes me to forget.
Just reading your posts again Will, why did it come to your mind that I was asking other people to transcribe it for me? All I wanted was to see whether there was a transcription of this tune!
I wanted to know where the dots were, I didn't want you or anyone else to transcribe them for me.
Dan, the only way for a transcription of Kevin's playing of this tune to exist is for someone to suss it out and write it down. Whether it happened last night or last year doesn't matter--you were hoping someone else had transcribed this, instead of doing it yourself.
This is silly. You won't own up to wanting someone else to save you the effort. As Michael has said, that attitude isn't going to carry you very far.
The process of listening to a good player and really sussing out every note is a tremendous way to learn not just the tune but the musical understanding of the person you're listening to. In my experience, the extra step of transcribing it can help deepen your own understanding, and also plant it all more firmly in your memory. At any rate, you're guaranteed to learn more doing it yourself than simply reading someone else's efforts. It's definitely not time wasted.
BTW, since you mentioned this when you posted your transcription, you can show doublestops and drones in abcs by using brackets. [B,E] would be the low B on the G string and the E on the D string being sounded together. If it's a quarter note, you add the "2" to each note: [B,2E2].
Any setting of a tune--even learned in person--is just a snapshot. The first time you learn a tune gives you a baseline from which you can (and should) explore and expand.
Well that’s good then DJF - I'm glad you can learn a tune faster by ear than me, it’s great to see you putting your psychic powers to good use Before you freak out, I am slagging.
As in each time round? So you play the tune 3X round as part of yer normal session set. And also you usually play the A and the B part 2wice, so for any phrase you have usually 6 gos at it to do little extra bits. Unless you count the first time round of any phrase as the "standard" one, where you make the statement of the tune, thereafter you can do what you want for the four repeats of the main phrase (and you still have scope to wander around the "question and answer" bits at the end of the repeat phrases. (Sort of the opposite of rhyming poetry.)
"So this brings me back to Joel's point above;
>>Why should a load of (mainly) English players in an English pub claim to be doing these things authentically, just because they've learnt a tune by ear in the style that predominates at their session?>>" Ionannes, Joel.
Wow. Amazing. If an Australian had said that, the poms would have come out swinging, I'd say, and someone would have to get in the ring with them (again) and slug it out.
Ionannes and Joel say it...hardly a peep.
Amazing. But maybe not surprising.
Where can I get the dots for this?
Where can I get the dots for this?
Here's Kevin Burke playing some tunes. I think he says the first tune is called the Glen Cottage polka but I can't be 100% sure.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_pOtZkeJkLE
I want to know the name and where the dots are for the first tune E minor one) please! Cheers!
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Um, you *do* know how to use the tune database here, eh?
the clip labels both tunes, and Kevin clearly introduces them. The first is the Glen Cottage, and the second is Donal Lunny's Tolka Polka.
The dots are here in the tune database.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5278
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1251
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
what do people mean by "dots"
sheet music?
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by a sheamuis
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
yep. Inky splotches on paper (or pixel spots on a screen).
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Why do you need the dots when you have a video of the music being played?
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I need the dots coz I know that it annoys you Michael.
Will yes I do and I checked only to find that the dots don't follow the tune do they? Burke goes down to a low B and the sesh tune doesn't.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I'm flabergasted. If you know the dots are wrong, then you don't need them.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I would like the dots so they remind me of the tune once I've learnt it. I'm one of those people who sometimes forgets exactly how a tune goes even after I've learnt it so it's nice to have some physical copy of the tune there to help out.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Maybe you could download the version here, edit it so it approximates what Kevin plays, and post it to the comments section as an alternate version.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Or maybe you could just scribble out the version you want and keep it to aid your memory. That's a good use for dots.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Can you read music Michael? If so, why?
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Yes, I read, though not good enough to sight read. It has its uses.
A memory aid is a good one, though I try not to rely on it. I figure that if I forget a tune (which is rare) the tune deserves being forgotten.
And sometimes freinds send me tunes as dots. But only freinds who know my playing well enough to know how I will interpret. And I sometimes reciprocate.
I never share tunes via dots with strangers.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I learned that first polka too, but It's not the common garden variety Glen Cottage polka. Later I found a similar-sounding reel in the Portland Collection called "The Indian". I'll look at the notes when I get home.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by airport
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
DJF, asking for the dots, and wanting a transcription of Burke's playing are two different things. And as Michael says, if you can suss out the difference, why not transcribe the tune from Kevin's playing? That's a very useful thing to do for your own improvement.
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
DJF - did you try the advanced search yet? you might find it under different name
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by airport
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
...but I agree with Will and Michael - you probably won't even need that reminder after you've learned it and transcribed it
# Posted on October 8th 2008 by airport
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Airport, I will need the remainder before I get my head thru this degree I'm studying, I've realised my memory for tunes is not as good as it was before I started uni
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
From Llig: 'Why do you need the dots when you have a video of the music being played?'
Good sir Llig you are really priceless. You don't want people to use the dots because, it seems, they do not represent the 'traditional' way of learning ITM, but you want us all to learn from the video. The VIDEO!!!??? You mean that traditional and worthy medium? Oooh that is true irony. Do I need to continue?
I love it. You are truly an entertaining wind up. I've been enjoying your posts for a long time, and now I have my membership sorted out (thanks Jeremy) I won't rest until you admit to learning a tune or two by reading the dots in real time. If you want some help just ask. All you need is a knowledge of the alphabet from A to G, and an ability to count to twelve.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Here you go Llig Schmig:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5278/comments#comment404187
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Sigh. Joel, your derision is misplaced.
it's not whether dots are traditional or not. It's that this is largely an aural tradition. Most folk music is--we play it and learn it by ear. Using your ears is essential if you want to fit into any decent session. This music is different from genres played off the page (e.g., classical).
So rather than rely on the dots, learn to use and trust your ears. Ideally you'll learn tunes directly from other players, in person. But recordings (including videos) are okay. You'll be much more prepared to play in a session if you learn to pick up a tune from listening to a recording or video than by thumbing through reams of sheet music. In fact, if you can't learn and play by ear, all the sheet music in the world isn't going to help you sit in at a session.
If you don't understand this, and that it's *not* an outright condemnation of the dots (they have their utility), then you're plainly missing the point of this aural tradition, and perhaps of playing music at all.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Thanks for the transcription DJF - I'll need that reminder someday too. I was wrong about the title The Indian - it was called The Quarry Cross in The Portland Collection, and the notes say it came from The Fiddlecase Book of 101 Polkas by Jack Perron and Randy Miller. Good luck with the degree!
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by airport
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
aha!
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/559
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by airport
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Yeah, I don't give two hoots whether anything is traditional or not. It's about having to use your ear. It's about using your ear being a prerequisite to being able to play.
It's about the fact that the amount of information present in the dots is only a tiny proportion of what is needed to be able to play. And that that tiny proportion is actually the easy bit. And if you are struggling getting that bit by ear alone, what chance have you with the rest of it?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"It's about having to use your ear."
That's right...none of those new-fangled plectrums.
It's all a bit of a hoot.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I just prefer having the best of both worlds, Llig. I am very capable of learning a tune by ear. Maybe if I had posted this thread as "Where can I get the dots for this because I think learning it by ear is for freaks" then I would have thought your response relevant. If you have such an issue about dots then don't bother commenting on this thread, we all know how anal-retentive you are about learning by ear but what matters to me is how I want to learn the tune not how you think I should learn it.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Gentles --
I feel somewhat compelled to add my observation, simply my own impression, I admit:
Llig seems to feel that some vital musical abilities may be lost by not learning by ear, or by being overly dependant upon the "dots", or even using them more than necessary. Using your ear requires constant practice for most of us, and it is the most acurate way to pick up tunes as they are really played.
If you use any one method or skill all the time, you will naturally be neglecting others.
Therefore, using dots most of the time may have you picking up tunes in an antiseptic mechanical form, neglecting your ear-training, and possibly not retaining the tunes in your head as well as if you learned by ear.
Not to speak for you, Llig, as you do so quite well for yourself, but am I fairly on track as to yoru reasoning?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Piece
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
If you'd have said from the start: "I'm quite capable of learning this by ear, but I can't be arsed." that would have been ok for me.
But I don't know you, and from your initial post it reads like you "need" the dots.
My interjections on such requests are of the utmost relevance to playing this music and I shall continue to do it. If it bugs you? Tough.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
But it wouldn't have been ok to you would it Llig? Hence you calling them "interjections"
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Sorry rook, you snuck in there.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
You can't post a discussion and not expect interjections can you?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Also, I've heard from a few people who seem to be able to pick up tunes by ear fine, but learn a lot from dots because they are after uping their repertoir quickly. From your bio, it seems you are young, so I can understand that kind of thing. But impatience and this music don't make comfortable bed fellows
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Question: Where can I get the dots for this?
Answers should perhaps include the words, "you can find it here" or "You can't find it anywhere". These answers are relevant to the question.
Answers which aren't relevant include another question being asked in answer to the first question
e.g. Why do you need the dots when you have a video of the music being played?
What you have done, in effect, is hijack my thread by starting off your own discussion inside it. In future, why not click on "Submit your own discussion" and enter the title: "Why do you need the dots when you have a video of the music being played?" ?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Llig I'm sorry you mistoook my friendly banter for derision. You have a good point about the aural tradition of this music. During the last five years I've learned lots of music by ear, and I'm continuing to learn this skill, but I still think that written music has an important place. I taught myself to read and write music when i was a teenager, and when I started to learn and play Irish music the only source I had was notation. In fact I hadn't even heard several tunes before I played them off the page. This was very liberating for me. I have since adapted the way I play these tunes to fit in with how they're played at my session.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
D.J.F. I didn't see your post about the hijack until after I posted my last reply. If you don't have any luck with the first tune on the video let me know and I'll write it out for you in standard notation.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Hey Joel, I transcribed it last night at about 2 am.
See here: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5278/comments#comment404187
Though if you transcribe it late at night you may get some comment from Will CPT that you are disrespecting the music if you think you should alternatively be sleeping.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
DJ, You already had the direct answer to your question before my interjection.
Joel, No probs. This whole discussion is tiring for people who know the priceless value of using you ears. But every time, it needs going into again and again for those that don't yet know.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
If I had an answer to my question (some links to inaccurate transcriptions) then why did you bother Llig? Why bother? Not much going on in your life?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
or yours it seems, not even sleep?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I wanted to learn a tune, that seems to be your whole life, so there isn't much going on in your life.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I wonder whether players who have learned by ear (but also happen to read dots) have an easier time picking up a tune (without having to refer to the dots) than players who have always learned by dots. If so - or if not - does it matter?
I also wonder whether players who have learned by ear have an easier time playing at a fast session pace, than those who have learned by dots. Again, does it matter?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
As I said earlier: It's about the fact that the amount of information present in the dots is only a tiny proportion of what is needed to be able to play. And that that tiny proportion is actually the easy bit. And if you are struggling getting that bit by ear alone, what chance have you with the rest of it?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"...struggling to get that bit by ear alone, what chance have you with the rest of it?"
Are you saying that if you can't learn by ear you may as well not learn by dots?
Do you mean that some people can learn by ear and some people just can't?
(I wouldn't think that many would disagree with you that the dots are only a proportion of the tune.)
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I'm saying that if you can't learn by ear you can't play this music
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
You must mean that "you can't play this music" other than that proportion provided by the dots, as you referred to.
If you can read and play the dots, you would be able to play it, provided you can play your instrument.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Hmm, I dunno. When you hear a classical player playing the tunes from the dots you wouldn't really say that they are playing a proportion of the music that's in the dots. Though technically they are, You'd really just say they are not playing it at all.
And it's not about being technically able on your instrument eaither, It's about the sound you make. Being able to read and play the dots, and have technical mastery on your instrument is not enough to play this music. The primary thing is that you have to hear it and translate what you hear into the sounds you make.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
If people think that ITM should only be passed by ear then it will eventually die. I took up folk music in my late 30s. I didn't have the luxury of growing up in Ireland with the music all around me. There are few sessions where I live, so I have learned most of what I know by dots. Perhaps without dots my neighbours would have been happier over the past 7 years. However lets all value diversity and do it both ways. And if anyone has a magic wand I would love to be able to learn everything by ear - wave it please....
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Mando Deb
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
DD
Llig is quite right. Dots are merely an *approximation* at best ....they are the skeleton if you will of the tune.
There's no flesh, hair, smell, eyes. In other words, a skeleton. It isn't human. It's dead. But it can give you an idea of what a human might have been like [if you're a forensic pathologist or watch a lot of CSI].
And since tunes were created by living human beings why not listen to and/or watch human beings play the tunes as they were meant to be heard?\
Dots are not where it's at. They are merely an aide memoir...an archive if you will. And, as far as ITM or other trad musics go, they are ONLY a HINT of what's there.....we talk of this music as a "livining tradition"....
Consider this hypothetical scenario:
do you think the tradition would be alive if all the old/competient/current master musicians suddenly died out, passed on no tunes?...then, say 200 yrs later we found "the dots" and thought, "hey we can revive this music!"
it simply wouldn't happen. you can't reinvent a tradition from dots.....you need people to pass it on. not skeletons. dots are frozen tunes. they're dead. they're in the morgue. they're an archive at best.
you can't play ITM [correctly or with any insight and passion] from dots.
you can't.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
not "should only be passed by ear", but "can only be passed by ear". (However, recordings are not as good as playing with real people, but, if you are carfull, can surfice.)
You simply cannot learn the music from a book. It's as simple as that. If more and more people think they can learn it from a book, then it's dead already
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Mando Deb
with due respect, you are quite wrong.
again, you don't need dots ....you need a good cd collection.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
If a classical player is playing from the dots "you'd really just say they are not playing it at all". I can't imagine many people saying that in relation to classical music Michael, and maybe even Irish trad, but I may be completely wrong there.
I tend to think you try to cover a lot of ground in a short time, Michael, on this topic, maybe too much for many intending players - especially those used to learning other music from dots, and that causes a fair bit of misunderstanding.
To many, I think, it won't matter whether they learn by ear or from dots, but the relative merits and advantages of each method will matter quite a bit.
I say this from the perspective of thinking that adding a visual step in the process viz 'learning from dots' to what could well be regarded, and is in reality an aural learning experience in playing traditional Irish music, makes a difference when trying to play at fast pace - but I am not sure. I think it is an important difference in results of each learning method, depending on one's goals when learning the music.
You will no doubt have additional views on other aspects of the music are missed by dot-learning.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
So if dots are so important or necessary to learning and playing why not then have music stands etc at sessions? Why? Because "dots" are antithetical to the spirit and approach of traditional music.
Would you want someone shuffling through piles of music paper [as most of us here have seen done probably at some session or other during or apprenticeship in this music] at a session? Anyone who has seen someone doing so can tell you how futile it is....while you're on tune #3 he/she is still rummaging thru their pile of dots.
Not only is it annoying, it's dumb. It's also rather anti-social to boot and is somewhat insulting to the other members of the sesh.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Oh I would love to come to your session mtodd, I would feel so welcome.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
This reminds me of a quote I once saw in a novel about Brian Boru. In reference to his son, it was said: "He had the technical ability to play a series of notes in a particular order, but he couldn't play music."
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Jiml
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
DJ
you're more than welcome to come. will you bring a music stand?
every second wednesday of the month. Tranzac Club. Bloor/Brunswick Streets. Toronto.
look forward to meeting you.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"If people think that ITM should only be passed by ear then it will eventually die."
That's asinine!
There are loads of kids learning the music by ear all around the world, and it's certainly in no danger of dying. The reverse, that if everybody only learned from sheet music, irish music would die, is quite true, though.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Nico
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Dots, in a session? no I have never seen that....
Llig and mtodd, your points, which may be valid to some extent, are not put across well when you make such ridiculous spelling errors, I do hope your lack of care and attention in your writing is not similarly displayed in your playing.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I don't need a music stand mtodd, I was trying to remind you of being really quite rude to me a while back
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
mtodd, I don't know whether if the music was only handed on by dots it would be dead, rather than likely have what "makes" the music, redefined. To use your analogy, perhaps, if a skeleton was to walk down the street it would do so with perhaps a fair degree of rattle, and quite a different noise to a skeleton with flesh, hair, eyes, and even shoes!
I know this topic has been overdone, but to me, the argument doesn't generally get the best out of the question. There is a very good consideration I think as to the difference in learning from dots as opposed to learning by ear, but I think it gets missed a lot of the time.
Before going on to consider what is *missed* in the music by learning from dots viz a viz learning by ear, what advantage is there, apart from that consideration, if any, to learning by ear in this music.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Don't get them started Duijera, we'll be here for months/years
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
DJF: Really? ....mea culpa. Time heals all wounds. Whatever it was I've forgotten and now must concentrate 100% on my grammar and spelling so as not to upset Ionannas and the commakaze police! ;)
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"Before going on to consider what is *missed* in the music by learning from dots viz a viz learning by ear, what advantage is there, apart from that consideration, if any, to learning by ear in this music."
Well, you sort of answered your own question DD. If you *miss* a lot of the music by learning via dots, why would you want to learn from dots?
I mean, learning music, any music, is all about, surely, playing it well and authentically and with depth and an understanding of the possible sounds/colours inherent in it etc etc etc.
Non?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I enjoy seeing this topic come up regularly, because it means newcomers are joining us. Here's how I see the question;
What to Real Book tunes, Bach partitas, and ITM have in common?
Each have their own style. If that style is missing in your playing, you will sound like a rank beginner. Sheet music is most important in classical music; less important in jazz; and useful but not necessary in ITM; but the listening component is essential to all three.
I can play all nine Beethoven symphonies within the style on my doublebass, but still can't get Lark In The Morning to sound like I think it should. I think the classical musician has the biggest adjustment to make.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Llig says "scribble out the dots" and that is very good advice.
If you write it down with your own hand you will actually be reenforcing your memory. It will help you more in the long run than finding a copy of someone else's writting.
then you'll have the sheet music be right since you wrote down what you actually heard when you learned it by ear.
it will help you music copying skills, too, since you'll need to read your own handwriting.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
This horse has been beaten to death but I will add to the chorus of posters insisting that you simply cannot learn to play this music correctly unless you learn by ear and listen, listen, listen. If you know the music inside out and learn a tune from sheet music because you haven't a recording for whatever reason, then fine. But if you haven't already internalized the music and you are relying on notation to learn how to play it, then you will struggle to make progress.
Claiming that you learned as an adult and didn't grow up around the music so therefore need dots is really not an excuse. Sorry if that seems harsh, but lots of people on this website, including myself, came to the music as adults and learned how to play by ear as part of the whole education process. Can you become fluent in a foreign language if all you can do is read it?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
haha, DJF. I know it is a risk, but in listening to a lot of discussions on this topic in this forum, I still can't find the answer to whether, even if you learned a lot of tunes from dots, you'd be able to keep up the pace at a fast session. Whether that matters or not probably depends on the goals of the learner, and I accept that learning just from dots misses a lot of the music.
Apart from those additional things, I tend to think that at some point as the beats per minute of the music ramps up, at different sessions, or within the same session, that differences and limitations may well start to become apparent if you have learned primarily from dots. That might be an important aspect to people who ultimately want to play at sessions if they are learning from dots. Of course, if the person only ever wants to play other than at a session then it mightn't be a problem at all.
To me, learning this music has parallels with other aural skills where visualisation and a related reliance on "memory" as an intermediate step in the learning (and playing) process is regarded, and correctly, as a stumbleblock to proficient playing at speed.
Irish trad, correct me if I'm wrong, is an aural musical tradition, so how does learning from dots sit with that? Would you be giving yourself a disadvantage learning that way, which won't really be apparent to you until you try to play with people who have learned by ear? (It won't if you are playing with a whole lot of people who have similarly learned tunes from dots I wouldn't imagine, allowing of course, for llig is saying about a whole proportion of the tune being missed by learning from dots.)
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
" I think the classical musician has the biggest adjustment to make"
I agree. I learned to play jazz by ear from the old fellas and I'm used to the idea that the sheet music is wrong
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Well put Greg. On another point....the classical scores I've seen of my kids [they play piano] seem to me pretty complicated to say the least. There is LOTs of direction on timbre, time, and this and that. I've seen some classical violin scores that would boggle the mind....they are Greek to me. But as far as I can tell they obviously communicate *a great deal* about how the music is/should be played.
I have another friend who is a classical guitarist. His scores are insane and his teacher adds even more handwritten notation. My point being, perhaps in a 'classical' world scores are seen as and are, in fact, necessary. It's hugely complicated music. And no doubt it's a feat to memorize that....
Now, to ITM. Are we not essentially dealing with 'simple' melodies? For the most part I think we are. But it is the embelishment of that music, via many different kinds [and takes on] the various ornaments that breathes life into those "simple" melodies.
You can't annotate the subtle bowing patterns [which change each time a really good player repeats the same phrase again in a tune] that occur. If you did, you wouldn't be able to see the dots for the trees...so to speak.
Irish music if full of hugely complex changes that are constantly re-occurring with each pass through the tune.
How can dots possibly convey that? To say nothing of the micro tuning and a zillion other things that are going on in amazing players like Patrick Kelly or The Raineys et al.
Having said that, I often use dots to work out some bowing patterns...but that's all. It's merely a mnemonic device until those patterns get under the fingers...and I often change my mind. But I work out the patterns WHILE LISTENING TO A LIVE RECORDING...because I want to understand what the player is doing...
so I'm not learning from the dots. I'm using my ears.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
There is a differance between learning a tune from the dots, and trying to learn a type of music from the dots.
A style can only be learnt by listening, a tune, on the other hand, can be picked up from the dots merely by learning to read. They are different issues. I don't think anyone is saying its desirable to learn a style of music without actually listening to it.
However , we only have recorded evidence of Irish trad for a relatively few years. Who knows how it was performed 200 yrs ago, we can only guess.
Style of performance, the crux of the matter, is a separate issue to the tunes performed. Is anyone suggesting that we can learn how to play trad authentically from listening to a CD of Kila?
Every generation plays the music as they choose, Its a living tradition, It changes. Style of performance varies from person to person, village to village. A highly ornamented style may be appropriate in one area, and not in another.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I don't really see it as an "either/or" sort of thing.
I learn tunes by ear off a record or from a friend, and use the sheet music in the tunes section here as a memoriztion aide.
But I studied music at a university, so I was already able to read. Why not put to use a skill I already have?
But I draw the line at "learning" a tune solely from the dots. That just doesn't work. If you try and play it with someone who learned it for real, you'll probably be in for a big surprise.
so sheet music can help, but it also can be a crutch. You have to be able to play without any paper.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I basically do the same thing mtodd does. Its easier for me to read dots than the ABCs or tablature
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"Are we not essentially dealing with 'simple' melodies?"
What I have found as a result of learning some tunes by ear and some tunes from dots over the years is that the tunes I learned by ear I can play without *hesitation* at a fastish session. Those I learned from dots I generally cannot play at that speed, because there is a hesitation in there somewhere which I think is coming from my attempt to *remember* a visualisation of the dots before *translating* that them to notes.
There seems to be an extra step in the process created when you learn from dots which only really becomes apparent when you try to play over a certain number of beats per minute.
That's probably clear as mud sorry.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Ioannas...Right, it's a *living* tradition.
Dots aren't living.
Dots are dead inky approximations on paper of something that *was* alive and existed in time while it was being played....[and perhaps someone was listening]
In Itm's case, dots are -- at best -- an adjunct to, not a replacement for listening.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Flogging a dead horse is basically all education is, isn't it? Well, at least for the teachers. You have to drag the thing out from behind the barn and wack the stuffing out of the poor thing every day, pretty much. There's always someone who hasn't seen you do it yet.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
This is what usually happens in these threads...there are two arguments happening, one is about the inability of dots to convey style, etc, etc, of the tune, the other, which I don't think is generally raised, is the limitation(s) and/or disadvantage(s) of dot-learning, if any, viz-z-viz learning by ear in a genre that is essentially an aural tradition, and at what point the disadvantages, rather than the stylistic differences, become apparent when playing with other people who have learned by ear - if that is what you want to do. If you don't, then it won't matter a jot to you probably.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
What usually happens in the session threads is that the original topic gets hijacked by the same old members which reel everyone in so it becomes a confusing jumble of posts. It's S H I T quite frankly
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
DD
is that: "won't matter a jot"....or, perhaps, "won't matter a dot"? ;)
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Spot on...or dot on should I say.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"it becomes a confusing jumble of posts. It's S H I T quite frankly"
it is? DJ...I don't think you've been...ahem, listening.
Some very good points have been made here by DD, Ion, Llig and others.
Rather uncharitable of you...quite frankly.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
What SWFL F? So that's what I did wrong hey ... should have been flogging a dead 'orse ... and now you tell me.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
A little experimental theory I'm part way through here. I am trying to learn two new tunes. I want to learn it by ear rather than dots. (I can read dots ok.)
I download a tune which I really like (cause I'm gonna have to play it over and over ad nauseam), from this website. I download the sheetmusic for one tune from this site, and the midi file for the other tune from this site. I also use an excellent metronome site (hear me out) that someone kindly posted in a thread here somewhere: http://www.metronomeonline.com/
I mentally note how long it takes me to learn the tune, just the skeleton of it, from the dots compared to learning the second tune from the midi file. Maybe there isn't a difference for these two particular tunes. Then I try to play it against a slow speed on the metronome at that website. At slow beats per minute maybe there isn't any difference in being able to play both tunes. Then I start uping the beats per minute, until one tune starts to fall apart - is it the dot-learned one, or the ear-learned one.
That's where I'm up to. I think I will find that I will be able to play the ear-learned tunes at faster beats per minute quicker than I will be able to play the dot-learned ones at the same speed. Maybe I will find that over a certain speed, I just can't quite get the dot-learned ones (or some of the harder ones) right at all, and I have hit a plateau or something.
It won't matter if I only ever want to play those particular tunes at those slower beats per minute, or if I go to a session and they're playing those ones at a higher speed, I will just sit those ones out and have a listen.
I am by no means an accomplished player, I am sure, but I am very interested in the means and method to learn this music by ear.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I'd put aside the metronome until you can play all the notes in order, slowly, even if it's out of rhythm. Then you can add the metronome. The longer you spend at the very slow stage, the better you will develop the "finger memory".
To me, it doesn't matter how you learn the tune, as long as you practice it very slowly for a long time first. You are training the muscles to respond, and you will eventually be able to play it at a fast tempo.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Oooh crikey ... itr's not an argument about using your ears specifically, against using sheet music. It's an argument about using a source that is woefully inedequate in the amount of information that it contains, against the real thing.
The horrid horrid midi thing is just another way presenting the exact same amount of information that is the abc or the tadpoles. Avoid at all costs
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Yes, Greg, I believe you are right. I do that actually, don't use the metronome until I have a reasonable finger memory of the tune.
If I slow down the "analysis metronome" to what I am doing when I try to learn these tunes, I note that when I look at the dots, I am having to say "oh right, I see that that dot represents A, and now here it is on my instrument" (to me, that is two mental steps and takes slightly longer to do, than hear the note on the midi file and *translate* that to a finger position.
(I know this sounds ridiculously analytical, but I am trying to slow down the mental process to observe it.) It sounds funny, I know.
It seems quicker and easier for me to get the tune down even very slowly from the midi file than from the dots, and even feel sometimes that the dots are *getting in the way*.
If there are two mental steps in the dot-learning process and it creates a reliance on translating a type of visualised memory of a tune to the instrument, and if it creates a hesitation at a very slow speed, how much more would that hesitation be apparent at a high speed, and would it make me hit a wall.
I have read somewhere on this forum that there is a view that professional players can play around ten beats per minute faster than non-professional players (not that speed is the criteria of professionalism, don't get me wrong, someone just raised it on this site is all). I wonder whether there is any significant difference between the number of professional players, for example, who learned from dots compared to those who learned by ear.
To me, that is a very central consideration around the dots -v- ear learning processes.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I don't learn from midi files, Michael, it is something that I have used once recently to try to get a handle on what differences I experience learning by ear compared to learning from dots.
For me, there is a difference, and I prefer to learn by ear, although when I started learning years ago, there wasn't much information around about the difference.
Of course, midi files are inadequate to learn from, totally agree.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"Oooh crikey ... itr's not an argument about using your ears specifically, against using sheet music. It's an argument about using a source that is woefully inedequate in the amount of information that it contains, against the real thing."
Actually, Michael, what I get from these discussions are two arguments, at the very least, to use your descriptors:
1. an argument about using your ears specifically against using sheet music;
2. an argument about using a source that is woefully inadequate in the amount of information that it contains, against the real thing.
and other arguments about the inability of dots to convey stylistic considerations.
But I'm all ears.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Ah interesting, so lligs argument has got nothing to do with learning by ear, or learning by sight from the dots!
Its about the source. So tell me, its not Ok by you, to learn by ear from a beginner who has only has the bones of a tune, but it is ok to learn from a heavily notated transcription of Willie Clancy playing?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Are you asking llig, Ionannas?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"The horrid horrid midi thing is just another way presenting the exact same amount of information that is the abc or the tadpoles. "
or LACK of information you might say.....
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I am DD.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=ind6fk1wi8w
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=h_BRLtO0oL8
and,of course-
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=7w65438PCGM
whoa,Nelly! sorry about that...
-pipewatcher
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I think what it boils down to is that this is music. You have to use your ears. The better you learn to listen, the better you'll eventually be able to play this music. Relying on the dots hinders learning to listen.
If you don't agree with that, then try learning to paint blindfolded and see how well you do.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Will is right. And if I don't tear myself away from reading these posts, I'll never get any work done. It's a day off for me and my garage roof needs reshingling...
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
But, Will, some people are going to think that learning from dots is actually training their ears, especially those who have only ever learned music from dots. They will likely think, when they interpret a dot and translate it to their instrument and hear the sound, that that is no different and just as good (if not better) than "learning by ear" i.e. "learning without dots".
I don't think the argument as it usually pans out in these threads gets to the real point, which I think is closer to "why is it better to learn without dots, and what are the limitations later in playing the music having learned from dots - in addition to stylistic omissions."
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
These threads tend to give me shingles too, Greg.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
If you are already familiar with the music of Willie Clancy, then you could probably have a decent stab at getting something reasonable out of a heavily notated transcription of Willie Clancy.
And if you are familiar with the music in general, it's relativeley straight forward to create a tune from a poor beginners bones.
If you are not familiar with the music in general, both sources will be hopeless
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Dubh, past threads have covered that ground in painstaking detail.
FWIW, the dots can only tell you what the tune sounds like ***if you already know what the music sounds like because you've listened to it a lot and carefully.***
The odd thing to me is that DJF was just being lazy in starting this thread. He has the ability to suss a tune out by ear, and to transcribe it. He just didn't want to "waste" his time--apparently preferring to waste someone else's.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Hey Will, talk to my face.
Can you remember what time it was when I posted this discussion? It was very late, I decided to post a discussion and then check it in the morning to see if there were any results. I then realised that there wasn't the helpful group of people online that I had been hoping for, therefore I had a go at transcribing it myself. I wasn't being lazy, I was just prioritising my sleep over transcribing a tune at the point of me submitting this discussion.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
D.J.F. rest is important. Playing music is something I use for relaxation.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
IMHO, from reading the thread, it's the defensive tone that has riled folks up.
"I need the dots coz I know that it annoys you Michael.
Will yes I do and I checked only to find that the dots don't follow the tune do they? Burke goes down to a low B and the sesh tune doesn't."
So then use your ears and change the notation.
"Can you read music Michael? If so, why?" point?
When one pokes something with a stick, one is bound to get a reaction. not a surprise.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Hey Dan, try listening for a change, instead of just being defensive.
Why didn't you simply wait till morning to transcribe the tune? Your sleep or lack thereof is not our responsibility.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Heh, cross posting with wyogal.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Anyone who posts on this thread does it for their own motivation. You choose to 'waste your own time'
<< And if you are familiar with the music in general, it's relativeley straight forward to create a tune from a poor beginners bones.>>
As it is from the dots.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I was going to simply wait til morning to see if there were any accurate transcriptions posted in my thread.
Wyogal, that first comment (coz it annoys you Michael) was not intended to be taken seriously, sorry.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"I was going to simply wait til morning to see if there were any accurate transcriptions posted in my thread."
Right. Instead of just doing it yourself. So is that laziness or a sense of entitlement?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
It is prioritising sleep over bothering to transcribe a tune.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I think this website has alot to answer for with the face of ITM it presents, and the worst aspect is the ready accessibility to score or midi of tunes, which can only enhance the propagation of tune learning by those mechanisms, especially in beginners. Only to a certain extent is that likely to be tempered by revealing discussions of this type. For that reason I don't think that this discussion can be done to death... ...the more it reappears, the more likely beginners will assimilate an attitude appropriate to the music they are beginning to engage with.
ITM should be learnt in the context of sessions, one to one transmission, and some recordings too. Score doesn't reveal the morass of information that is going on in the music of a player worth emulating. The nuance and subtlety of ornamentation, slurring, emphasis / weight length of note, phrasing, rhythm, swing and timing are all information that is not portrayed at all in score or midi. Indeed, I believe that many of these things are best learnt almost subconsciously. While conscious learning of them is possible, the requirement of the conscious act in the face of such large musical information can distort reality and produce a result which isn't quite what it should be. For example, i've noticed some players who have heavy emphasis on beat 1 and 3 (in a reel) so much so that the notes of 2 and 4 are contracted and lightened so much they are almost not heard, and certainly not given their due emphasis, and the reason given for the emphasis of beats 1 and the 3 is to emulate the swing that they've heard in some recordings. The point is, in this case, the conscious interpretation has lead to playing that betrays a decontextualisation from other important stylistic facets integral to the music, so much so that the whole thing becomes a caricature of itself.
I'm not saying conscious learning isn't possible, but it comes back to what was said somewhere else about truly "hearing" what's going on, not just thinking that you are "listening" and then imposing your own view of what you believe the reality is on your own playing.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Jamie
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Dan, if you needed sleep so badly, why bother submitting a thread? Go to bed, and transcribe the tune in the morning.
A few members here have a greedy habit of expecting the rest of us to do their work for them. Perhaps we should quit enabling them....
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
''ITM should''
There is no 'should' about it. This music defies all boundaries beginners such as yourself can put upon it. Were you John Kelly I would consider your words carefully.
People can offer their help as they so often do, or not. Its their free choice.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
ionannas ~ this is the session.org Saying (in this forum), "ITM should be learned in the context of sessions . . ." Seems like a good starting point. I.M.H.O.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I'm not someone who is obsessed or believes in some historical authenticity that can be rigorously appealed to and retrogressively applied. However, I don't go the other way... ....to p*ss on ITM and say anything goes and anyone's view is valid whatever it is. Sure the argument needs to stand up to scrutiny, which is why mine and your view are being posted on a public forum for that necessary scrutiny. To say "ITM should" is to say that there is some essence or nature of ITM that someone can at least attempt to grasp - it is to say that it is a reality and not merely a feather in a hurricane!
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Jamie
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
So your saying ITM should be learnt here? ;- ) this is the session right? Im joking, but its about as valid as saying ITM should be learnt in sessions!
ITM is learnt in many situations, to say one is right and one wrong starts creating boundaries. So if I said ITM 'should' be learnt in Ireland, or in Boston, or in a farmhouse in west Clare etc would that be 'the session speaking'? No Its just one opinion of many. Its just an opinion , and I disagree.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
This music is best handed along person to person, face to face, playing or lilting it. That's essential to making this music what it is.
Other methods of transmission tend to dilute that immediate, aural essence, but they are a fact of life (and of the tradition) now. They can be useful, but they must be a secondary (or tertiary) means to pass this music along if we're to sustain any ties to the generations of musicians before us.
Some people don't care about keeping that generational musical thread alive. Some do. It's up to those who do to speak up. We can't force anyone to follow the musical thread, but we can offer the opportunity for those so inclined.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
''This music is best handed along person to person, face to face, playing or lilting it.''
I agree.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
To say ITM should is clearly to invoke an ethical dimension. Denying the word "should" should ever be used is to say that no ethical dimension need ever be invoked in the approach to and propagation of ITM. I believe strongly that ITM does have an essential nature, which is the thing that attracted me to want to participate, learn and immerse myself in it. To say no "shoulds" need ever apply is to say that even if you could fathom some essential characteristics of what ITM is, you couldn't give a rats ass whether you ignore that and do everything your own way irrespective of it. All you are doing is denying what you purport to love.
Its like the uni. music choir I was at some 9 years ago which existed to work towards (on a term by term basis) a serious substantial piece of classical music, for example, the Mozart Requiem - such was explicitly described in its society description. This is did okay for a while. However, the uni. choir existed outwith a formal music department and the director wanted only to perform what the students wanted to learn. As time went on, more and more people joined the choir who didn't bother to learn the music in their own time and so found rehersals frustrating. However, they still wanted to come and join in and be apart of the musical experience. What happened was they started exerting their view that they wanted to learn easier music which they already knew, and the director acquiesced . The result was a reasonably well respected uni. choir, capable of performing substantial musical pieces ended up becoming a choir performing minimalistic arrangements of well know pop songs, and found itself quite incapable of putting a good term by term performance even of them. It was a crying shame...
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Jamie
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Put another way: I learned some tunes directly from Kevin Burke, in his Portland apartment decades ago. He in turn had learned them directly from Bobby Casey. Bobby had learned them from his father, Scully.
That line of transmission has far more content and meaning to it than any collection of sheet music or cd recording could ever hope to hold.
Thankfully, some people still pass along the music this way.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
'The nuance and subtlety of ornamentation, slurring, emphasis / weight length of note, phrasing, rhythm, swing and timing are all information that is not portrayed at all in score or midi.'
Sure but what if I learn a tune from dots that I've never heard before and then add all those things myself? Is that OK? Who's to say that the subtlety of ornamentation etc. that I'll hear at a session is correct anyway? Why should a load of (mainly) English players in an English pub claim to be doing these things authentically, just because they've learnt a tune by ear in the style that predominates at their session?
If you're an interested musician you can learn a tune from notation and try to breathe your own life into it. It's the same with classical music notation. It's a guide and (often complicated) framework. Once you have the framework sorted out, you can then start to add your own articulation, expression, phrasing etc. It's called interpretation, and it's what I did here:
www.myspace.com/joelmcdermottmusic
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I meant http://www.myspace.com/joelmcdermottmusic
As for metronomes: isn't amazing how they all seem to slow down?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
''To say no "shoulds" need ever apply is to say that even if you could fathom some essential characteristics of what ITM is, you couldn't give a rats ass whether you ignore that and do everything your own way irrespective of it.''
That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. But what happens if an essential aspects of ITM is the lack of 'should'? Who says what should be and what shouldn't? You, me? Tansy? who? UL? UCC ?
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
. . .
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
To learn by ear all you need is the ability to *listen* i often wonder why people find this such a hard task.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by bb
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
DJF -youre getting very snipey in your comments. I just have to say - if you want to know how to play this type of music then you take comments of people who know what they are on about on board. You dont go around telling people not to post on your thread when they were clearly trying to help you out. If you dont take these comments on board you may just turn into a session wrecker. I know which of the two I would rather be.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by bb
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Ionannas - spelling mistakes....really??? Really - I'd rather be a good musician than a good speller. This is after all a music site. I mean - jesus - I had no idea that one had to be good at grammar to play this music well. Tut tut - I half wonder if you have any clue what you are on about and this is going off all the posts you have put on this site. But dont worry mate. At least you can spell, and that is all that matters. I'm sure your session mates are jumping for joy.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by bb
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Nice playing Joel. I mean, really stellar and enjoyable.
But fingerpicking jigs on a guitar doesn't draw as heavily on the tradition as playing fiddle or pipes, eh? You *have* to come up with your own interpretations because you're taking a non-trad instrument and approach to the music.
From what I heard, you're succeeding. Great stuff. But that's a very different path from what most people on this site are doing at sessions.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Will Harmon
I should get sleep but I am still logged on?
I am sure it is a fine polka by Kevin or Willie. Will this thread be moved t the "Tunes ~ Comments"?
The tight rope walk of should's & shouldn't(s) is great sport.
Here is part of a poem regarding must & mustn't in a life & death situaton ~
"we bequeath a parting tip
For sound advice of such men
Who come across in transport ship
To polish off the Dutchmen.
If you encounter any Boers
You really must not loot ‘em,
And, if you wish to leave these shores,
For pity's sake, don't shoot ‘em.
And if you'd earn a D.S.O.,
Why every British sinner
Should know the proper way to go
Is: Ask the Boer to dinner.
Let's toss a bumper down our throat
Before we pass to heaven,
And toast: "The trim-set petticoat
We leave behind in Devon."
Last poem of Harry Morant
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Joel, you quote a very important point, a point that is the nuts and bolts of the argument. It's well worth repeating ... again:
'The nuance and subtlety of ornamentation, slurring, emphasis / weight length of note, phrasing, rhythm, swing and timing are all information is not portrayed at all in score or midi.'
However, you then ask a question:
"Sure, but what if I learn a tune from dots that I've never heard before and then add all those things myself? Is that OK?"
This is a difficult one. Of course you are free to do what ever you want, but, it introduces what Jamie refers to as the "ethical dimension". It's an important point. Do we owe it to the music to be true to it? What does being true to it mean? It's a double edged sword ... to allow freedom of creation for the individual and yet demand respect for the music.
I think it boils down to ego. Traditional Irish music is ego free. The best of it has the overriding respect for the myriad of personal contributions over the ages that have created it. You put the music first, not your own personal contribution to it. And this means you have to learn it properly. Learn how it has been played and learn how it is played by the best proponents of it now.
So, Joel, you say:
"If you're an interested musician you can learn a tune from notation and try to breathe your own life into it."
Yes ... you can. But for it to be "the music", a mere interest is not enough. To be able to take a tune from notation and create "the music" from it takes a great deal more than mere interest. It takes a real long lasting study.
And ... and I'm not trying to disparage your music, as I said, you are free to do what ever you want ... but your "Interpretation", as you put it, on your www.myspace.com/joelmcdermottmusic is not the music.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Thank you Will for your kind comments. I'll send you a copy of my album when it's finally done! With a few exceptions, I played all the other instruments on those recordings including the guitar (accepted in sessions during the late 1960s/70s) the Irish tenor banjo (played in its current form in Irish sessions since the 1960s following the massive success of the Dubliners) and the mandolin (played in Irish session since the turn of the last century, albeit in bowl-back form in those days).
I've heard, and I could be wrong about this, that the fiddle and pipes, at least the modern pipes, are not traditional Irish instruments at all. The fiddle as we know it came from Italy and the modern pipes have changed beyond recognition in the last hundred years or so with the introduction of various knobs and levers, of which I know nothing about.
You have a very good point: yes I have had to come up with my own interpretation the music, but not just because I play instruments that are not necessarily traditional. It was because I was doing it all on my own. I simply didn't have other people around me to tell me what was right or wrong. Sure I had recordings etc. and I went to festivals and concerts. Now I am lucky to have found a group of like-minded musicians/friends at my session who have shown me new ways of doing things. The greatest skill I have learnt from them is the ability to listen. It's the key to any music. I don't feel like I want to prove anything about my musicianship when I play with other people. All I want to do to do is fit in and add something to the harmonious whole. I love to improvise to with this in mind, and I would never dream of taking dots to the session. I tried it once a few years ago and it was a total flop!
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Lllig you are quite right, but I have never claimed to play 'the music'. I wouldn't dare to presume that I have some sort of handle on traditional Irish music. I just like the tunes, and I like to record my own versions of them. I also like to play other sorts of music: in my own time, my own style, and on my own terms. I love to listen, to interpret and to jam with other people. I don't care much for authenticity, whatever that means. Although I am a staunch defender of notation, I also love to improvise. Most of the stuff I've recorded has been improvisation based on things I've heard or read. I love that kind of spontaneity. I tend to read/play the melody and try to paint a picture around it with other instruments. I believe that when I play music I am speaking from my soul. Deep inside my soul. Apart from my day job (writer) It's the only chance I get.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"You put the music first, not your own personal contribution to it"
I like that. I didn't think DJF deserved quite the keelhauling he received. On a different day someone might have posted the correct link to the tune he was after and he could have gone to sleep.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by airport
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Hey, I *tried* to post the right link!
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Sorry Will - I wasn't directing that comment at you. I guess my point was that you often get responses here based on the collective mood of the place (just like a real session!)
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by airport
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
bb the only advice people were giving me were basically that "sheetmusic is wrong" so in fact they weren't helping out since the question involved finding some sheetmusic.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
yes - but the fact that you cant learn a tune by ear shows that you need to work at it - not rely on sheet music. That is help..telling you to learn by ear and not notes is help, youre just choosing not to listen.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
DJF, the fact that you prioritized sleep over "bothering to transcribe the tune" points to the fact that you prefer the dots to an actual audio source of a tune. If you need a memory aid to remember the tune (because your university courses are overloading your brain.... just wait til you get to the real world, my friend...), then why not just keep a bookmark to the youtube link?
(OK, I'm getting on your case a bit... I like to keep dots to everything I have learned too, although, I have stopped caring if the dots are the same setting that I learned, because I have learned to be more fluid with my settings of tunes.)
But the fundamental argument here is really the difference between using dots to learn a tune vs. trying to use dots to learn the music. And my personal take on it is that you *can't* solely use dots to learn the music. And while you *can* use dots to learn a tune, once you're at least semi-proficient in the music, why would you do that if you have an audio source?
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
This has been a very interesting thread. Yes, the topic comes up often. There are now 49,996 members. Let's see how many new members will have joined us, the next time a dots vs. ears thread arises, so we can approximate how many new musicians will need to sort this all out.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Is it a dots vs ears argument at all?
It appears to be a source argument masquerading as a ears argument. It seems that llig is saying you can only play trad if you listen and learn from the'' Acceptable sources''. Its not an argument against dots per se.
I think learning a tunes bones from any source is perfectly acceptable. be it a classical player or midi. How you play that tune is a matter of personal style. I don't like 'classical' interpretations, my own taste.
Is there a right way to play trad? IMO many different right ways, and many different wrong ways. That's my opinion. its valid for me, no one else, although others might agree.
As far as I can see part of the argument, at least, boils down to what do we listen to? How do we play the tunes we have learnt. Do we play in a traditional styles, or play in 'other' styles.
Its not an argument about learning tunes by ear, because llig has clearly said that learning tunes by ear from midi is unacceptable to him. Its an argument over how do we learn to play the finer details found in good players rendition. That is clear enough as a transcription of Willie Clancy's playing is acceptable.
IMO the obvious answer to this is to suggest a listening list for people. how they pick up the bones is not relevant, its how we put flesh on these bones. where we get tunes is not so relevant as to how we perform them and the finer details.
So here's a start; Listening list . The 'right way ' to play trad[ IMO;
The star above the Garter;.Dennis Murphy and Julia Clfford
Trad music of Ireland; Kathleen Collins
Traditional Irish Accordion; Tony MacMahon
Memories of Clare; Bobby Gardiner
Anything by; Seamus Creagh, fiddle
Irish traditional concertina styles; comp
Clare concertinas; Bernard O Sullivan and Tommy MacMahon
Irish traditional concertina and fiddle music; John Kelly
Traditional accordion and concertina music from Sliabh Luacra.; Jackie Daly
Kerry fiddles;Padraig O'Keefe, J Clifford, D Murphy
The piping of Seamus Ennis
The pipering of Willie Clancy
The piping of Johnny Doran
I hope others can offer their suggestions based on other regional styles.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Yes, I'm keen to move this on, and recommendations of what to listen too is a good idea. However, I'm not keen on your reference to "the fine details". It makes it sound like a sprinkling of something, a mere adjunct. I would much rather describe it as the meat and potatoes of the music.
A couple of things though, I said that learning a tune from a transcription of Willie Clancy's playing is only acceptable if you are already very familiar with his style (though it stands to reason that it would be much better to go back to the original source recording, if you can). And I'd like to reiterate that, if you are able to put flesh on bones, then you can learn tunes from dots. Though to say that it's not relevant whether you learn them off real people or off sheet music misses the vital importance of knowing how it's actually played by other musicians.
So ... your list is a good list. I'd like to ad:
Tommy Peoples for fiddle
Finbar Fury for pipes
Matt Molloy and Cathal McConnell for flute
Mary Bergin for whistle
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
So I think we can agree that if someone is unfamiliar with traditional Irish music its wise to listen to lots of traditional performers such as we recomend. That way they can get a better feel for the music.
Unfortunately, sometimes this is not enough! Recently I lent a John Vesey CD to a fiddler who has a distinctly classical and Germanic sound, Hoping that he might get the message. Nope, he returned it saying he didn't like his style! OMG!
Its quite obvious to me that this is a lost cause for some. I hasten to add he has learnt a lot of his tunes by ear, not from the dots. By ear in sessions in Germany, if I am not mistaken...
So this brings me back to Joel's point above;
>>Why should a load of (mainly) English players in an English pub claim to be doing these things authentically, just because they've learnt a tune by ear in the style that predominates at their session?>>
Exactly.
Learning by ear is a handy skill but it bears no relation to how the music 'should' be performed, that all depends on who you learn the tunes from.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
bb i can learn a tune by ear, faster than you could anyway
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
bb if you'd've cared to read my posts in this discussion you would have managed to work out that I wanted the dots solely as a REMINDER of the tune once I'd learnt it. I did not say I rely on sheetmusic to learn tunes, far from it, I can learn tunes by ear just as well as anybody on this site.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Maybe that's your problem, you're just in a bit too much a rush. Remember, impatience and this music do not make comfortable bed fellows.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Might I suggest a separate post [Llig? or Ionannas?]
titled something like "A Recommended List for Listeners"...not a great title...but something like that?
cut and paste what we've got so far but make it a new post. that way it's fresh and easier to find perhaps for new members, beginners, and old timers alike.
? just a thought/suggestion...
I'll add:
-Kathleen Collins for fiddle
-The Raineys for fiddle in their own unique style & duo playing/live setting etc
-James Kelly's solo cd for fiddle for his amazing styling and clean playing
-Chieftans vols.1-4 only. Lots of good basic tunes [i'm not a fan otherwise] as a resource for oldies but goodies commonly played still
-Patrick Kelly from Cree cd for his virtuoso fiddling in the old vein
-ditto for Joe Ryan [solo cd]
-and perhaps anything by Bobby Casey and Tommy Potts [fiddle] again for their virtuosity and playing with temperament
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
OK, let me enter the fray
and submit the 140th+ post to this thread.
Has *anyone* who has 'contributed' above actually heard Dan play? I had the pleasure of playing with him in a York (UK) session a few weeks ago. Let me assure you, this guy can Play! (As fast as anyone I've heard, too, but that's not very important). We played a couple of tunes he hadn't played before, and by the 2nd or 3rd time through, he'd got them. If he wants some dots, so be it. If there's anyone who can 'flesh out a tune from the dots' it's DJ. As for being 'in a rush', I think DJ is just really keen: he loves this music - in fact I can't remember the last time I came across someone so enthusiastic about it.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by domhnall.
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
It is important actually, If you want to be able to play in session, you need to be able to play up to speed otherwise you will be left sitting there stumped.
The only problem DJF has mentioned is people coming in to preach their doctrine! A simple request for the dots leads to another discussion of the benefits of ear learning. This one however has clarified some of the issues for me at least.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Ion - sorry - what I meant by 'not very important' was not being able to play fast (yes - that's important), but the fact that DJF can play as fast as anyone I've heard (not so imporant!)
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by domhnall.
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I'm not questioning Dan's playing abilities. But his attitude either sucks or is just poorly represented by his posts on this thread.
He wanted the dots as a reminder of how to play this polka. Since he's perfectly capable of transcribing the dots from the video clip himself (as he did), why ask others to do it for him? And if he's such a quick study, who the hell cares whether he does it before he goes to sleep or after he wakes up the next morning?
Why is it anyone's responsibility but his own to learn this tune? And then he gets all sassy when people question his motives. I don't care how well he plays, Dan has some growing up to do.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Kind of begs the question really...I mean, if he's such a quick study and has tunes down he's never heard by the 2nd or 3rd time thru [and can play them at lightening speed]...why DOES he need the dots at all?
If he 'can' play that well by EAR he doesn't need the dots, or to bother members here to do his homework for him.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
jeez lads, its no bother.... why don't you get of your high horse! if you don't want to help, thats fine , if you do, thats fine. what's with the trips?
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by piobagusfidil
It is not just insomnia . . .
Passion!
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Ion, consider the initial request. For someone who claims to learn by ear so well, he couldn't even suss out the names of the polkas on the clip--and Kevin says them very clearly.
I tried to help and Dan can't even be bothered to acknowledge that.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Sheer laziness on D.J.F.'s part.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
You did help though. The second post. I agree thanks are in order.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Will you tried to help, failed, then had a pop at my laziness coz I wanted to have the dots for the tune. Fancy posting an incorrect, unhelpful to the OP link then having the cheek to call me lazy. It's not on, all I wanted was some dots, but when I realised I wasn't going to get that, I had a go at transcribing it, something I'm not that good at. Only then I get slated by slainte coz posted it on the link YOU Gave me.
Yeah it's all very well trying to help, I tried to look for the tune here, only finding the one you posted as the first response. Didn't you yourself notice that the dots weren't following the tune on the video? Does it really matter to you how I learn the tune? I just want to get a broader range of tunes that I can play, what's the harm in that?
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"Kind of begs the question really...I mean, if he's such a quick study and has tunes down he's never heard by the 2nd or 3rd time thru [and can play them at lightening speed]...why DOES he need the dots at all?" ~ mtodd
Once again I'm repeating myself, mtodd did you read one of my previous posts?
"I would like the dots so they remind me of the tune once I've learnt it. I'm one of those people who sometimes forgets exactly how a tune goes even after I've learnt it so it's nice to have some physical copy of the tune there to help out." ~ D.J.F.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Domnull it was a pleasure to find out your true indentity in that session, that probably was the reason why I played so fast and furious that night, I was happy!
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Such a charming personality.....
Dan, it all comes back to whether you're willing to use your own ears, eh? How did you ever suss out the notes if you couldn't even hear Kevin giving the names of the tunes? You want someone else to transcribe the tune because you're "not that good" at it? Well put your brain in gear and learn. How do you think the rest of us did it?
Drop the smarmy sense of entitlement and maybe you'd get some friendly help around here.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
P.S. I can't help it that so many tunes are posted here under erroneous spellings. You've complained about missing sleep over this. It was 2 a.m. here when I gave you the names and links for the two polkas.
Cheers yourself.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
this one intrigues me:
"I'm one of those people who sometimes forgets exactly how a tune goes even after I've learnt it"
Everyone forgets tunes sometimes. I'm cursed in that I rarely do. However, when I do forget a tune I take it squarely on the chin and put it down to the tune was not worth remembering.
I know too many tunes. I wish I knew fewer. I'm not that old, mid 40s, but I'm looking forward to the day when I can claim senility
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Just because you haven't given me any friendly help Will doesn't mean I don't get any 'around here'. The reason I even submitted this thread was because of the high number of friendly helpful folk there are on this site. I didn't force you to reply to my thread at 2 am, that was down to your own choice, as it was mine to ask if any transcriptions this version of the tune existed.
Ah I agree on that Llig, but sometimes I reckon it can be down to having so much other stuff squashed up inside my head and knowing tunes that are similar to each other that causes me to forget.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Just reading your posts again Will, why did it come to your mind that I was asking other people to transcribe it for me? All I wanted was to see whether there was a transcription of this tune!
I wanted to know where the dots were, I didn't want you or anyone else to transcribe them for me.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Dan, the only way for a transcription of Kevin's playing of this tune to exist is for someone to suss it out and write it down. Whether it happened last night or last year doesn't matter--you were hoping someone else had transcribed this, instead of doing it yourself.
This is silly. You won't own up to wanting someone else to save you the effort. As Michael has said, that attitude isn't going to carry you very far.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Oh, erm. good luck with that.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I actually had a go at the transcription Will in response to you saying why not have a go at transcribing Kevin's playing.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Good. See, I was some help afterall.
The process of listening to a good player and really sussing out every note is a tremendous way to learn not just the tune but the musical understanding of the person you're listening to. In my experience, the extra step of transcribing it can help deepen your own understanding, and also plant it all more firmly in your memory. At any rate, you're guaranteed to learn more doing it yourself than simply reading someone else's efforts. It's definitely not time wasted.
BTW, since you mentioned this when you posted your transcription, you can show doublestops and drones in abcs by using brackets. [B,E] would be the low B on the G string and the E on the D string being sounded together. If it's a quarter note, you add the "2" to each note: [B,2E2].
Fair play to you, Dan.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"a transcription of Kevin's playing of this tune"
I saw him a few months ago and he played it a lttle differently.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by ...
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I sure hope so.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Any setting of a tune--even learned in person--is just a snapshot. The first time you learn a tune gives you a baseline from which you can (and should) explore and expand.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Amen to that
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
And I'm not taking the p*ss there at all! I always try to have a go at playing tunes a little differently each time
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Yep.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Well that’s good then DJF - I'm glad you can learn a tune faster by ear than me, it’s great to see you putting your psychic powers to good use
Before you freak out, I am slagging.
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by bb
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
As in each time round? So you play the tune 3X round as part of yer normal session set. And also you usually play the A and the B part 2wice, so for any phrase you have usually 6 gos at it to do little extra bits. Unless you count the first time round of any phrase as the "standard" one, where you make the statement of the tune, thereafter you can do what you want for the four repeats of the main phrase (and you still have scope to wander around the "question and answer" bits at the end of the repeat phrases. (Sort of the opposite of rhyming poetry.)
# Posted on October 10th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
I'm not that fast Key Maniac Lad, that would be stupid
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by I ♥ Dow
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
Hey D.J.F.
Did you learn then tune in the end? Did you enjoy it? Did others enjoy it too? Hope so...
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by McDermott
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
"So this brings me back to Joel's point above;
>>Why should a load of (mainly) English players in an English pub claim to be doing these things authentically, just because they've learnt a tune by ear in the style that predominates at their session?>>" Ionannes, Joel.
Wow. Amazing. If an Australian had said that, the poms would have come out swinging, I'd say, and someone would have to get in the ring with them (again) and slug it out.
Ionannes and Joel say it...hardly a peep.
Amazing. But maybe not surprising.
# Posted on October 11th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Where can I get the dots for this?
*****************************************************************
WE HAVE FORGOTTEN THE GREAT WISDOM OF HOULBERG.
"Some tunes get picked up by ear, some do not, who gives a flying fart"
HEED THIS MANTRA AND MAYBE YOU WILL ALL STOP BEING EEJITS.
# Posted on October 16th 2008 by mehitabel23