Someone mentioned on another site about how the reeds in the highest registers of their new box were -disappointingly- rather slow to speak, but that they would wait till they've 'played-in' the instrument before raising the issue with the shop.
Can anyone say whether there is a significant improvment in reed reaction after a few months' playing-in?.
Were these steel reeds or brass reeds? Brass reeds are "slower to speak" than steel ones. Can't think of any scientific reason why either type should require any "playing in", though.
i don't have any answers, but i'm interested. i have an old lachenal concertina that i bought, foolishly and against expert advice, on ebay (it is in the 'right' key-- G/C, as opposed to my G/D. turned out that the reeds are brass and the action is lamentably slow and soft. but i'm wondering if, like those new reeds you speak of, they _might_ become quicker if i play them for a while.
It is very difficult to get 100% perfect reeds, particularly if you're a piano accordionist like myself. For some reason, much more effort goes into the manufacture of button accordions. In my field anyhow, low speaking-quality of reeds is taken for granted and therefore it has become a musicianship quality to know how each reed in the accordion speaks and to adjust articulation and bellow work to hide it.
I think that reeds don't change much over time, until they finally break catastrophically.
Players who work hard and practice regularly do change over time - they follow a rising trajectory of increasing skill, strength and precision. These gradual changes - particularly the strength and precision bits - may not be noticed at all by the player or more likely the consequence of their improvement is attributed by the player to the "playing in" of a box which had been new to them and seemed stiff and slow when they began.
this is very strange to me that many are saying there is no change over time.
in the concertina world, we are very aware that reeds change over time. that much is certain. you can play a concertina that is brand new, and then play the same one a year later after someone has been playing it every day, and it will play better and sound different. this is just like violins. they have scientifically proven and measured that the wood in violins change over time and do break in. so, we could say this much: the sound and speed of a concertina/accordion does change, but as far as i know, it has never been proven whether or not it is the reeds changing or the wood. i would bet both.
all concertinas have a break in period when they are new. some makers' concertinas are harsh, tinny, and don't play well for the first few years, but then develop into the best concertina you will ever play. and some concertinas come out much closer to how they will be "in the end."
it gets more complicated, however, as there is the actual speed of the reed (the delay between when pressure is applied to the system and when it resonates), and the perceived speed of the reed. depending on how a reed sounds, it may seem to be faster than another. and, as i said, the sound of reeds WILL change over time, especially in comparison to a brand new instrument. so, it could be fast, but sound slower than it really is. also, keep in mind, that the quickest speaking reeds are in the middle of the range, and the slowest reeds are at the highest and lowest ends. the highest needs need a lot of energy (air) at a high pressure to speak, while the lowest reeds need a lot of energy, but at a lower (initial) pressure.
also, a final thing to consider is that the reeds may not be seated properly. a fraction of a millimeter too high or not high enough above a reed frame can change the speed of a freed.
Actually, does anyone know where I can find more information on reeds? It's really difficult to find anything good on the net. If someone actually could find a list of each reed type with a spectro analysis beside it, i think I'd have found heaven!
The reeds on my B/C are definately changing - originally it was just two, but now there are four or five. They're getting wetter, which I think is down to the lower of the pair vibrating at a slightly slower speed.
It's got to the point where I need to do something - I'm plucking up the courage to do it myself since I left a 'customer service request' with Mengascini about six months ago and haven't heard anything from them.
It's particularly noticeable on the high D. It makes playing slow pieces a bit painful as holding that note produces a discernable warble compared to the other notes. People often comment how sweet a sound this box has, but I need to bring a couple of notes back to that original setting before I'll be happy.
"Actually, does anyone know where I can find more information on reeds? It's really difficult to find anything good on the net. If someone actually could find a list of each reed type with a spectro analysis beside it, i think I'd have found heaven!"
The graphical comparisons are derived from CBAs, sadly, not the diatonic boxes but if you are interested in reeds you might find it interesting to study. The author's results are pretty interesting.
I've long wanted to convince someone at my university to study the effects of work hardening on the tone of accordion reeds, with the application in mind to produce reeds that are already "broken in," if such a condition exists. I could write the grant, but the department would own the patent. That's a deal breaker.
Seems to me that the whole business of reeds, etc. is a rather hush-hush affair. One accordion builder caught wind of the blog and asked to have his company's name removed. Spectral analysis would really take an accordion's clothes off. Reed makers have to protect their trade. Have you ever seen your favorite bar with the lights on? Wanna try on a pair of concrete shoes? etc. etc.
Seems reed-lore is an esoteric subject. I don't know whether it can really be asserted that reeds will change over a short period with intensive usage without lapsing into Sgt. Pluck's (of that far-off police station) style of metaphysical rumination/explication.. 'Ah, but if you blow hard enough and long enough onto it, even the nature of a piece of steel will change in a small but quite perceivable way'?. ;~b
I *do* know that after long-term usage, the nature of steel does alter tangibly (and not in a positive way) on instruments which employ a percussive mechanism on a reed-like tine or tongue to produce sound, such as certain electro-mechanical keyboards of the 60's/70's. Though hitting a piece of steel -even with a felt hammer- has to be a much more extreme process as compared with that of free-reed sound generation.
your reeds are going ont of tune for sure but although the pitch is dropping slightly, I doubt that the actual tone or response of any of your reeds has actually changed
do you play your box very hard? I seem to have been knocking seven bells out of my own 2-voice box for the last four years but it's still as dry as dust.
Having lived through this problem myself on earler boxes, I doubt that others will notice your reed problem - but I'm sure that it's driving you mad.
I wouldn't consider trying to re-tune your reeds yourself unless you're absolutely sure that you know exactly what you're doing. Anything less and you'll end up in professional hands anyway ,the only difference being how much work is required and how much you have to pay.
Others have noticed the change - in fact, one of them gets more wound up about it than I do...
If you don't think the actual response of the reeds is changing, what do you reckon is causing the change in tuning?
I originally suspected Guinness in the reeds (not joking, it's a real risk in some of the places I play), but there is no obvious coating on the reeds in question, they look just like all the others.
It also seems to be getting worse. Or maybe it's just because I've noticed it that now I hear it every time. Work hardening would be my first guess (but then I'm an engineer).
Unfortunately the nearest expert is a long way away, and I'm not sure I'm emotionally up to losing the box for a couple of months. Not to mention the gigs I've signed up for.
by response, I mean the speed at which the reed responds to the movement of air across it - how quickly it speaks - not the timbre it creates, which seemed to be the original question in this topic
metal fatigue of the reed blade seems the most likely cause of the pitch dropping over time - that's perhaps not the same as work hardening, but then, I'm not a proper engineer
that's why I asked if you played the box hard - if the reeds are repeatedly deformed beyond their limits by high bellows pressure, the reed metal could get tired, causing the pitch to drop. otherwise maybe you got some indifferent reeds
tell your critics that it's part of the charm - just like proper fiddlers deliberately (?) playing a bit out of tune
'Playing-in' of new reeds
'Playing-in' of new reeds
Someone mentioned on another site about how the reeds in the highest registers of their new box were -disappointingly- rather slow to speak, but that they would wait till they've 'played-in' the instrument before raising the issue with the shop.
Can anyone say whether there is a significant improvment in reed reaction after a few months' playing-in?.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by cannyscribbler
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
Were these steel reeds or brass reeds? Brass reeds are "slower to speak" than steel ones. Can't think of any scientific reason why either type should require any "playing in", though.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
i don't have any answers, but i'm interested. i have an old lachenal concertina that i bought, foolishly and against expert advice, on ebay (it is in the 'right' key-- G/C, as opposed to my G/D. turned out that the reeds are brass and the action is lamentably slow and soft. but i'm wondering if, like those new reeds you speak of, they _might_ become quicker if i play them for a while.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by 'tinamatt
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
Is it just that you unconsciously develop better technique for getting a good sound out of the reeds as you play them more?
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
Hi,
Try http://www.talkingreeds.co.uk/ It's has some info on helping to get a reed to speak better.
It is very difficult to get 100% perfect reeds, particularly if you're a piano accordionist like myself. For some reason, much more effort goes into the manufacture of button accordions. In my field anyhow, low speaking-quality of reeds is taken for granted and therefore it has become a musicianship quality to know how each reed in the accordion speaks and to adjust articulation and bellow work to hide it.
Good luck and I hope you're a button accordionist
Martin.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by martin t
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
I think that reeds don't change much over time, until they finally break catastrophically.
Players who work hard and practice regularly do change over time - they follow a rising trajectory of increasing skill, strength and precision. These gradual changes - particularly the strength and precision bits - may not be noticed at all by the player or more likely the consequence of their improvement is attributed by the player to the "playing in" of a box which had been new to them and seemed stiff and slow when they began.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
this is very strange to me that many are saying there is no change over time.
in the concertina world, we are very aware that reeds change over time. that much is certain. you can play a concertina that is brand new, and then play the same one a year later after someone has been playing it every day, and it will play better and sound different. this is just like violins. they have scientifically proven and measured that the wood in violins change over time and do break in. so, we could say this much: the sound and speed of a concertina/accordion does change, but as far as i know, it has never been proven whether or not it is the reeds changing or the wood. i would bet both.
all concertinas have a break in period when they are new. some makers' concertinas are harsh, tinny, and don't play well for the first few years, but then develop into the best concertina you will ever play. and some concertinas come out much closer to how they will be "in the end."
it gets more complicated, however, as there is the actual speed of the reed (the delay between when pressure is applied to the system and when it resonates), and the perceived speed of the reed. depending on how a reed sounds, it may seem to be faster than another. and, as i said, the sound of reeds WILL change over time, especially in comparison to a brand new instrument. so, it could be fast, but sound slower than it really is. also, keep in mind, that the quickest speaking reeds are in the middle of the range, and the slowest reeds are at the highest and lowest ends. the highest needs need a lot of energy (air) at a high pressure to speak, while the lowest reeds need a lot of energy, but at a lower (initial) pressure.
also, a final thing to consider is that the reeds may not be seated properly. a fraction of a millimeter too high or not high enough above a reed frame can change the speed of a freed.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by daiv
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
the biggest changes take place in the bellows and key bearings
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
Actually, does anyone know where I can find more information on reeds? It's really difficult to find anything good on the net. If someone actually could find a list of each reed type with a spectro analysis beside it, i think I'd have found heaven!
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by martin t
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
millionyears_bc,
The reeds on my B/C are definately changing - originally it was just two, but now there are four or five. They're getting wetter, which I think is down to the lower of the pair vibrating at a slightly slower speed.
It's got to the point where I need to do something - I'm plucking up the courage to do it myself since I left a 'customer service request' with Mengascini about six months ago and haven't heard anything from them.
It's particularly noticeable on the high D. It makes playing slow pieces a bit painful as holding that note produces a discernable warble compared to the other notes. People often comment how sweet a sound this box has, but I need to bring a couple of notes back to that original setting before I'll be happy.
Eno
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
Martin, you may know of this page, but it helped me choose the tuning when I ordered a new box last year.
http://www.accordionpage.com/wetdry.html
I'd like more info on reeds as well, such as the binci-
found this link just googling binci reeds:
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.music.makers.squeezebox/2006-12/msg00070.html
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by rogfox
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
"Actually, does anyone know where I can find more information on reeds? It's really difficult to find anything good on the net. If someone actually could find a list of each reed type with a spectro analysis beside it, i think I'd have found heaven!"
martin, a long time ago I found this man's blog:
http://www.mariobruneau.com/Castelfidardo.html
The graphical comparisons are derived from CBAs, sadly, not the diatonic boxes but if you are interested in reeds you might find it interesting to study. The author's results are pretty interesting.
I've long wanted to convince someone at my university to study the effects of work hardening on the tone of accordion reeds, with the application in mind to produce reeds that are already "broken in," if such a condition exists. I could write the grant, but the department would own the patent. That's a deal breaker.
Seems to me that the whole business of reeds, etc. is a rather hush-hush affair. One accordion builder caught wind of the blog and asked to have his company's name removed. Spectral analysis would really take an accordion's clothes off. Reed makers have to protect their trade. Have you ever seen your favorite bar with the lights on? Wanna try on a pair of concrete shoes? etc. etc.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by gravelwalks
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
Seems reed-lore is an esoteric subject. I don't know whether it can really be asserted that reeds will change over a short period with intensive usage without lapsing into Sgt. Pluck's (of that far-off police station) style of metaphysical rumination/explication.. 'Ah, but if you blow hard enough and long enough onto it, even the nature of a piece of steel will change in a small but quite perceivable way'?. ;~b
I *do* know that after long-term usage, the nature of steel does alter tangibly (and not in a positive way) on instruments which employ a percussive mechanism on a reed-like tine or tongue to produce sound, such as certain electro-mechanical keyboards of the 60's/70's. Though hitting a piece of steel -even with a felt hammer- has to be a much more extreme process as compared with that of free-reed sound generation.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by cannyscribbler
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
bc-box-player
your reeds are going ont of tune for sure but although the pitch is dropping slightly, I doubt that the actual tone or response of any of your reeds has actually changed
do you play your box very hard? I seem to have been knocking seven bells out of my own 2-voice box for the last four years but it's still as dry as dust.
Having lived through this problem myself on earler boxes, I doubt that others will notice your reed problem - but I'm sure that it's driving you mad.
I wouldn't consider trying to re-tune your reeds yourself unless you're absolutely sure that you know exactly what you're doing. Anything less and you'll end up in professional hands anyway ,the only difference being how much work is required and how much you have to pay.
Good luck
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
"your reeds are going out of tune"....
Time was that the accumulation of tar from playing in smokey pubs would affect the pitch of reeds......
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by spindizzy
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
my_bc,
Others have noticed the change - in fact, one of them gets more wound up about it than I do...
If you don't think the actual response of the reeds is changing, what do you reckon is causing the change in tuning?
I originally suspected Guinness in the reeds (not joking, it's a real risk in some of the places I play), but there is no obvious coating on the reeds in question, they look just like all the others.
It also seems to be getting worse. Or maybe it's just because I've noticed it that now I hear it every time. Work hardening would be my first guess (but then I'm an engineer).
Unfortunately the nearest expert is a long way away, and I'm not sure I'm emotionally up to losing the box for a couple of months. Not to mention the gigs I've signed up for.
Eno
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
by response, I mean the speed at which the reed responds to the movement of air across it - how quickly it speaks - not the timbre it creates, which seemed to be the original question in this topic
metal fatigue of the reed blade seems the most likely cause of the pitch dropping over time - that's perhaps not the same as work hardening, but then, I'm not a proper engineer
that's why I asked if you played the box hard - if the reeds are repeatedly deformed beyond their limits by high bellows pressure, the reed metal could get tired, causing the pitch to drop. otherwise maybe you got some indifferent reeds
tell your critics that it's part of the charm - just like proper fiddlers deliberately (?) playing a bit out of tune
# Posted on October 7th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: 'Playing-in' of new reeds
Hi, thank you all for the advice on reeds, much appreciated!
M.
# Posted on October 9th 2008 by martin t