I can't believe the Yanks are bickering. It astonishes me that they would rather score political points than agree a consensus to shore up their beloved capitalism - the feckin idiots. It's like the fall of the feckin' roman empire.
It's astonishing, isn't it? The Fed and Wall Street can't run a financial empire properly, ran the boom and bust completely out of control like punch-drunk pigs at the trough.
It's not all the yanks that are bickering-it's the wretched leeches that want to get re-elected and are afraid to p*ss off their constituents.They don't have the stones to take a stand, even if it's a bad one. Let em crash and burn.....
The real problem is that it's election time, and the bailout bill is unpopular with voters. It has to pass one way or another though, or the financial system will collapse completely.
I love (in the ironic sense) the righteous indignation from across the pond. Wasn't it Churchill that said "Democracy is the worst form of goverment... except for every other form of government"
Recession: there are two consecutive quarters of decline in economic activity as measured by a decrease in GDP, the economy is said to be in a recession. During a recession, prices fall, consumers don't buy as many products (especially high-priced items), and businesses begin to fail. ...
www.enotes.com/business-finance-encyclopedia/economic-cycles
Save your gig money! Musicians' gigs are one of the classic bellwethers of the economy.
I, for one, am happy to have a hobby that one can do alone in a cabin in the mountains. Might need to...
I don't think either the American politicians who said 'No' *or* the ones who said 'Yes' to the rescue plan are "feckin' idiots". I honestly believe they are sincere. And I think that comment indicates a lack of understanding of how difficult the situation is.
Oh, and for anyone wondering about the soundness of the bail-out plan, here's a peice of reassurance for you. This is from a US Treasury spokeswoman, speaking to Forbes.com when asked why $700 billion was the magic bail-out number:
'It's not based on any particular data point... We just wanted to choose a really large number.'
People drink more in Recession hence the Irish pub trade may be revitalised, hence more music in pubs hence more gigs. I have stockpiled on instruments this year knowing that approval from the Fed ( wife) might be more difficult in the economic climate going forward.
The tears just wont stop running down my face, I really can't stop laughing at the sight of these p*icks bemoaning the loss of their million dollar/pound bonuses, having to take the kiddies out of private schools, reducing the number of servants, selling the yacht, go rot in hell, the lot of you. Time for change, time for a socially responsible response to capitalist greed, time for representation of the working classes, time for mobilisation of trade unions, time to sing the songs of Woody Guthrie, time to reflect and time to think positive.
The planet might breathe a sigh of relief with less people wanting ridiculously huge plasma screens and just about every other device you plug in, while moaning about fuel bills. I've got an open fire, a stack of logs, some oil lamps (a little oil goes a long way if you're not using it to drive anywhere), candles, and musical instruments that don't need plugging in. I was quite happy during the power cuts of the 70's, and they'll be back (it's being so pessimistic that keeps me cheerful!). How will the Farcebook/iPhone/blackberry generation fare when you can't plug anything in? Mind you, we'll have to exchange rants by carrier pigeon!
I think the $m700 bailout is mass psychology,
not really economics - although the two things are related,
aren't they? The truth is even the mighty US Govt cannot raise
the 10s of trillions needed to bail out the system.
Yes! Thank god for the tunes! When the big asteroid comes
to town, I want to be in an all night session.
I take that all back, 'cos I just this minute got an email from "Mrs. Orbersi Brenda" of the "irish customer unit" telling me I've won £1,350,000.00! (shame there's no pennies). I'm just worried now about what bank to put it in before I go and spend it all!
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the problem as one for the Wall Street fat cats. Hot shot bullsh*te sales people are responsible for the U.S. mortgage crisis which has brought these banks down which is at the bottom of this problem.
Fat cats have earned enough bonuses in the past that they and their families will weather whatever storm. The people who suffer in depressions are ordinary working people and the further down the socio-economic ladder they are, the more they suffer. Never mind not being able to afford houses, the last time something like this magnitude happened (in the Great Depression) millions of people could barely afford toilet paper!
You better hope that the U.S. government is allowed to sort out this mess. It's a U.S. problem and needs a U.S. solution.
"Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.
No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:
"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.
"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.
"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.
"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions."
Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout.
The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.
And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.
Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?
It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.
This bailout's mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It's to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It's to make sure their yachts and mansions and "way of life" go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars!
I have to stop writing this and you have to stop reading it. They are staging a financial coup this morning in our country. They are hoping Congress will act fast before they stop to think, before we have a chance to stop ".
"This IS NOT about individual home owner's mortgages and the credit card society. The hard assets in the form of properties and so on do not vanish, the banks still hold the deeds. The descent in property values vs. the true capital exposure held on the bank's accounts is not a significant amount compared to the exposure they have due to the "illegal" packaging of those loans into derivative securities. It's not the home loan, it's the millions of pretend dollars built on top of each of those home loans.
Think about it, a 100k property was converted into a 3 million dollar security instrument which in turn was converted into 30 million in hedge vehicles. This is why the push was made to remove the regulations which prevented this type of game - the SEC and the FED basically allowed the banks to create 29.9 million of debt with a hard asset value of only 100k. This was a huge ponzi scheme, a pyramid scheme where the people who created and sold these helium balloon investment vehicles profited and left the last hands holding these things to burn. Guess who those last hands belong to? China and other countries who purchased them and also purchase the majority of our treasury bonds. When they get burned on these BS mortgage based securities they sure as hell aren't going to be holding or buying treasury bonds.
If the real problem was with foreclosures then the solution would be to buy up all the bad mortgages and put the base back under the pyramid. The real world cost of doing that has been estimated at around 50 to 100 million. Obviously that's not what the plan is because that's not where the real problem lies. The real problem is that ego and greed combined with a blind eye from the DC powers allowed the investment banks to go completely insane, repackaging and re selling these same hollow derivative vehicles over and over again until the eventual collapse of these funds was inevitable.
That's why they need hundreds of billions, actually quadrillions of dollars for this "bail out". They want to buy back these funds so the rest of the World doesn't drop wall street and the US economy like a 5 dollar crack whore. They need to sweep it all under a big rug and god forbid the facts and real figures come out. Not only would wall street generate thousands of new federal prisoners but most of the politicians, appointees and so on would also burn. They intend to rape the public to cover their own asses, period.
There are other solutions, better ones - but they don't include a mechanism to hide the evidence. Mark my words. If these criminals get their way we will all suffer for it and the next rounds of "financial 911's" will make this one look like a minor market hiccup. There is not enough real money in the entire world to buy our way out of this one. Americans need to realize this for what it really is and begin dealing with reality, making the tough decisions and taking the hard but correct course to fix it. I don't see that happening. Another few days of market drops and bank crashes and they'll be calling DC to beg for the quick and easy fix. (And pay for it with our society)"
If all else fails, maybe we can sell our fiddles and banjos etc at bargain basement prices at the local pawn shop. That should buy the next meal. After that? ....there's always lilting.
Wonderful that a few Americans still have some spirit to resist the abuse and lies...
"Keep up the letter writing campaigns, keep up the emails, keep up the phone calls. This is the revolution people! This is how it will go down. Without a gun, without blood, but with words and us taking our country back the right way, by forcing those in power to yield to our will.
Yes there will be a recession, it's overdue, we have to endure it. Washington can't postpone it forever. Don't throw good money after bad. Let it happen, yes times will be tough. But we as a society got through tough times before, we will get through these tough times ahead. It's not about Wall Street, it's about Main Street. It's about the middle class, it's about the people that wake up every day and contribute to the gross national product. These are the people that need to be helped. They need to be helped by making sure that those on Wall Street do not get away with bad business and loose the money of people that work hard for it.
We should NOT bail out Wall Street but Investigate Wall Street. Don't pay them for being crooks, punish them for being crooks. If they threw away your 401K cause of bad loans, they should be held accountable for that money. If they used predatory lending practices to put you in a home you can't possibly afford they should be held accountable for those practices. We shouldn't be held accountable for their criminal and felonious assault on our economy. They should be held accountable for their bad business and those that chose this path should go down for it."
Good will come out of it – the standard lessons will be re-learned:
Greed isn’t good;
Michael Douglas’s name is Michael Douglas, not Gordon Gekko;
Gordon Gekko is not looking after your interests;
Debt isn’t good;
When you borrow money – it ain’t yours.
When you borrow money you trade your freedom;
Credit cards aren’t good;
The best thing about a credit card is a zero balance owing;
Houses aren’t piggy banks – they are to keep the rain off you and your family, and so that you don’t have to live in a tent.
It is best to build houses out of bricks, not sticks or straw.
Rich people need to do things the right way – or other people suffer.
Government regulation can make people do the right thing (depending on who is running the government).
The price of gas at the bowser does not necessarily reduce when the price of a barrel of oil collapses;
Wars are expensive and strategically unwise when your enemies and their families and acquaintances own the oil.
To list just a few. Other additions would be most welcome.
You guys are thinking there is a choice here, between a good thing and a bad thing.
Those aren't the options. The choice is between a bad thing and an even worse thing.
If the banks keep on crashing, that'll lead to recession and possibly another Depression.
BUT, if the American taxpayers are forced to bail out the banks, you'll STILL get the recession and possible Depression, but it will be even worse, because the dollar will be like toilet paper, (there'll be hyperinflation) and the taxpayers will never be able to pay enough taxes to cover all that money that's going to the bankers and the rich elite who caused the mess.
Have you looked at the numbers ? The Fed is broke. The debt is trillions and trillions of dollars already. It'll take hundreds of years to repay. That's insane.
I know, it's going to be horrible either way. The poor always suffer and the rich get away with their crimes. But, the way to fix this mess is to limit the damage, not make it worse. Printing trillions of dollars to bail out bankers doesn't fix anything, it just hastens even greater ruin and greater poverty for the US taxpayers over the longer term.
You simply cannot believe what most of the US and UK politicians and mainstream media are saying. They speak with forked tongues. Almost all of them are controlled by the big financial interests, that is, the banking industry.
Nobody bailed out the UK miners or the dockers or the steelworkers. Why is it different for rich investment bankers all of a sudden ?
There will be a crash, and a lot of innocent people will be badly hurt. That's inevitable now. So, why make the crash even deeper and more long lasting by printing money to save the guys who caused the mess ? That wont solve anything. It'll make things much, much worse
Listen to Ron Paul and Marcy Kaptur and Kuchinik, not the people who are just sock puppets for Bush and Paulson and their buddies who are looting the American economy for their own benefit.
kuec, I'd think there'd be plenty of people who said it was wise to fight against the nazis in WW2 - the Americans had more oil than their enemies in that one, so strategically, it was a pretty good bet who would win eventually.
I hate wars too, but it seems to be an ancient practice, doesn't it. No one seems to have found out a way to stop them yet.
No one intervened in the market crash before the Great Depression either, and as a result principles concerning government monetary and fiscal policy were formulated. Not doing anything now could lead to a similar meltdown, but it will not lead to the world revolution.
"No one intervened in the market crash before the Great Depression either"
You're mistaken, DD. They did exactly what they are doing now, creating more debt to cover the previous bad debt, digging the hole deeper and deeper.
To have the Fed create billions more dollars out of thin air to try and prop up the failing bank structure cannot possibly work. It's a disaster. It'll make USA like the Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe.
Let the banks crash. Let the bubble burst. That itself will be terrible for millions of people who lose their jobs and businesses. But the pain will be worth it. Trying to keep the present bubble going is crazy, that will only make the catastrophe much, much worse and longer lasting.
Look, if you're spent up to the limit on your credit card, what you need to do is stop spending and get finances back in order. That can be hard.
But what Bush and Paulson want, (and have been doing all year) is take out another credit card and get into more debt to pay the first card. And then another and another and another...
Eventually, the crash will come, when all the cards are used to the limit and the problem is way, way worse than if you'd sorted things out on the first card.
The Fed is broke. There's nothing to support the dollar. Printing billions more dollars is totally irresponsible.
"Printing billions more dollars is totally irresponsible"
I doubt whether that will be a reason not to intervene, wolf.
Hey, and didn't we hear that the Irish Government has just guaranteed all banks there a similar bail-out?
Then there's the ongoing nationalising of the British banks isn't there?
Must have something going for it!
We don't seem to have the problem here...the government is actually injecting $4billion into the house loan market to give a helping hand to the non-bank mortage lenders - to help them stay afloat - and provide competition against the big banks.
Go figure!
The Irish Government *obviously* has an eye to the music, wisely so...if any pubs there have bank loans to banks that are in danger of going under, no problem now apparently, the government will prop up the bank, which will prop up the loan to the pub...so sessions can continue - in the pub.
What goes around comes around doesn't it - or vice versa anyway.
It takes a lot of bailing out and screwing around with a 'crisis' to make it a 'panic'. That's what happened in 1929 and that's what is happening now. They have a 'crisis' and freak out. They print money like a printing press on amphetamines and turn the 'crisis' into a 'disaster' or a 'depression'.
The analogy of a terminal alcoholic or heroin addict works best.
They just want a little more. It's giving it to them that has caused the problem in the first place. No addict will stop themselves voluntarily, and if you keep enabling them, they will never stop. They will drink or shoot themselves to death before they stop.
The architects of the current financial debacle have hurt our
national security as much as any terrorist act, and as such, their
malpractice constitutes an actionable offense, punishable by
incarceration, seizure of assets and confiscation of personal wealth. Just my $00.00000000002.
KWT
I think the recession/collapse/financial ruin of both Ireland, Britain and 'America' will be great for pub culture myself....since everyone will be out of work there will be no where to go. You won't want to stay home and weep with the missus over the disappearance of your 401K plan now would you? Not on your life, so people will drink to drown their sorrows in pubs and bars...the exact places musos are known to inhabit! Gigging will increase. Musicians will actually BECOME RICH on the back of others' financial disaster.
The financial meltdown is a blessing in disguise for anyone who makes money offa ITM. And even really bad players will now be called in for gigs and will form desparate bands that will tour nationally.
Isn't it strange how Nancy and Barny and so many Dems want the bailout; while so many of tose fellows on the other, usually more evil side are against it? Must all be in the details.
I've got two other names for you: Freddie and Fannie.
This entirely survivable semi-demi-crash's cause is unsexy enough to not receive much scrutiny. Most journalists are ill-equipped to explain it anyway, and the truth is boring enough that most readers won't bother digging. But here you go, neatly summed up:
Whilst discussing this whole debacle with a friend yesterday he offered the caveat that he felt he was not sufficiently educated in economics to expect his opinion on the matter to be of value. I quickly reminded him that it was the opinions of the very people he measured his failings against, those he would consider scholars of economics, that created the debacle to begin with. I then asked him again to tell me how his opinions were with-out merit.
Aye, the greatest seduction in history is beginning to unravel. At some point I hope we realize money shouldn't be at the top of the heap.
I'm with Wolfbird on this one. Incarcerate those that brought this on, politicians from both sides of the aisle included, seize their assets, face the music, care for one another as we struggle through the aftermath, and never, never, let just two political parties have as much power as they do today in our country.
Hey, SWFL, you don't need guillotines. What you need is available in any hardware store, the traditional American length of rope. It was tried and tested way, way back, and found to be an efficacious remedy against traitors and those who stole from the People
Atahualpa, no mystery. The bankers pay both sides equally. It's called hedging your bets. That's there expertise - hedge funds. They apply the same principle to buying up politicians, so, whichever way you vote, they always win...look at this
Note, Lehmans and others backed McCain AND Obama...
The majority of US politicians are bought and owned by corporate interests, and vote accordingly. Usually they can safely ignore the voters, but this time the American public know they are getting screwed. And not just them, their children and gran-children. There just isn't enough money in circulation on the planet to cover all the debts that the banks have run up. The only answer is to let 'em fail. Set up new ones, more like credit unions, that are anchored in real money and value, not insane derivatives that are just theft in disguise.
I joined 'accordion players for Obama", revisited the concept of getting a street performer license in Chicago and upped my playing time daily.
Being a musician is countercyclical. When business is good the music money is, well, crummy. When business tanks, music money doesn't change much. In fact, it might even get better because people can't shout at you to go get a 'real job' because there aren't any, and throw a few extra coins into the case...
I say we get all the accordionists, bodhran players and highland pipers in the US together for a "Million Musician March on Washington".
We won't stop playing until the Clowns in the D.C. circus get things straightened out!
NEW Ear Canal Oil, the explanation you cite was written by Kevin Hassert, director of economic-policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, a well-known right-wing think tank. He's also an adviser to McCain.
The list includes the CEO of Exxon and top guns from insurance, credit card, chemical, and pharmaceutical corporations. Not quite the "non-partisan" organization it claims to be.
Good old American rope ~ "an efecatious remedy for traitors and those who stole from the people." It may have done, here, on some occasions; I can't exactly think when. Most of the judicial, and extra-judicial hangings in this country were of poor unfortunates. Is it a time tested remedy in England?
I take it the Dems want the bail-out so as to control the banks, and the Republicans don't want it because they don't want to pay extra taxes to enable this, or for any other reason.
British political parties are in hock to big financiers too. This is because nobody will join them anymore and pay the fees.
Plain greed is at the heart of all this, and both political parties can shoulder blame for letting it happen. The situation won't improve (for the long haul) until we decide to hold corporations accountable.
FAIRLY SOON ALL MONEY WILL BE WORTHLESS IT WILL GO BACK TO THE BARTER SYSTEM I HAVE TWO BIG BAGS OF FRESH DUG SPUDS ANY ONE WANT TO TRADE FOR A GIBSON MANDOLIN A4 MUST BE IN GOOD NICK.
They say the good ole USofA was built on 3 boxes: the soap box, ballot box and cartridge box.
Let’s add B/Cs and make it an even 4. Who’s with me? Now, if some of you kind villagers will help me light these torches, we’ll be off to the Big Houses.
Atahualpa, one of my ancestors was once the 'most wanted dead or alive' in England. He upset everybody, the King, the Church, the Commons, everybody. He was on the run for three years before they caught him, but he didn't get hanged, he talked his way out of it....runs in the family I guess...let Duijera Dubh be my witness, hahaha
I'd love to stay on this thread all night, but I'm exceptionally busy at the moment.
Will CPT—You're absolutely right as to who the article's author is. Disclosure like that in story attributions is why I trust Bloomberg (as opposed to—gack—the New York Times as to owning up to any political bias among their financial, and other, "reporters").
I posted that particular link because the article is succinct and correct—also because there is such a yawningly obvious political tilt to the popular U.S. media (advertisers love that soft, suburban housewifely Left). But Freddie and Fannie are at the crux of this trouble and a sane, unbiased media would and should have those agencies as the primary focus as to "why this happened."
atahualpa quigley heres how to cure that drill a small hole in your ear and attach your hearing aid to it when you turn your head quickly it will probably smack you in the face somewhere then youll be reminded to stick it in your lughole.
Starting with Reagan, Gingrich, Sen. Phil whats-his-name fromTexas (the former head of the Senate Banking Committee) or quite a number of others from the Republican side. Confine your focus only to the Dems and you miss a much larger, older picture.
Maybe if Democrats had voted to rein in Freddie and Fannie, they would have been faced with angry Dem voters whose low mortgage payments were hiked or disallowed in consequence of this. Just a thought.
I BLAME THEM ALL DAG NAMMIT! STRING THEM ALL UP! BRING THE TROOPS HOME FROM IRAQ AND INVADE WALL STREET AND DC! THE FRIZZLE FREKKIN SASSA FRASSIN AAARRGLE FRUM FRAAACK!!!
Nicholas—¡Exactamundo, mi amigo! Vote-buying in the "community" is the (shall we say, under-reported) story here . . .
Atahualpa—A sea of lobbyists for private industries are there pushing both parties for or against regulation in Washington, absolutely. What's different—and much worse—about Freddie and Fannie is that you're talking about two enormous, deeply corrupt governmental agencies/Democratic party fiefdoms spending taxpayer dollars to lobby both sides of the political aisle. And yep, the lobbying worked: a little hand-slap for fraudulent accounting in 2003-4 and F & F went back to buying up vast seas of bad mortgages. That, far and away, is what caused this (hopefully hemi-semi-demi) collapse.
It's all an illusion anyway.
Whatever the 'value' of all the stocks on Wall Street, no-one could buy them if they all went up for sale at once, there isn't enough cash in all the world. These last few weeks have just shown what a house of cards it all is. Why people trust all the mythology is beyond me.
But meanwhile we all have to eat. keep warm and dry, and be kind to our neighbour. That should keep the world going.
How to build a community;
1) Turn off the tv.
2) Step out of your front door.
3) Play some music.
Someone reported here a while back that pubs in Ireland were closing for good. This was going on in more prosperous times. Are the music pubs going belly-up now as well? It can't simply be because of operating costs. That sounds more like a change in people's tastes and habits.
It's one more thing to add to the list of stuff that the Irish in Ireland abandon, and Americans perpetuate -- after a fashion. There's nothing hoakier than an "Irish Theme Bar" in the US.
The Irish tourists here, come to see our local to have a laugh. The Irish nationals who live and work here, come to the same local out of some homesickness, or something.
Could be....could be, way off in the future. You never know. BTW, some Tennesseans set me straight about the identity of the real Hunter Lee. Thanks for being game; that was hilarious! Well played.
"Are the music pubs going belly-up now as well?"
Of course. Music will not save you (if you're a pub)
"they might have Irish Theme Bars in Ireland eventually"
They're quite common already. Decor supplied by the same people who furnish "Irish" pubs overseas.
Irish tourists and others go to Irish theme pubs overseas for the same reasons locals do: often they're the only decent pub in town; there's an understood premise that a lone traveller can go there for the sole purpose of making conversation; and they often have music and sessions.
In that way, they've actually been quite successful.
Sounds as if there is a deeper social change happening over there, more than the hassle with prohibitive costs. Is it that unprofitable to keep a bar in Ireland these days?
Irish theme pubs here are in name and furnishings - and they might have a Guinness tap. Otherwise there isn't much Irish about them. Usually fairly spacious and woody though, so they're ok to be in. The Irish pub you have when you don't have an Irish pub - sort of thing. Yes, they're popular.
One of the most popular venues here now is The Gaelic Club, where there are queues down the street to get in many nights. Everyone in the queue though seems to be dressed in grunge gear or whatever, lots of silver chains and black clothes - I'm not into it, but it's that sort of look, I think. Lots of those sorts of apparently really *cool* amped bands. No Irish music there at all, ever. The owners just rent the room from the empty Irish Club bar upstairs, or they bought it off them.
It's the same changes as are happening in UK, and happened long ago in Aus/North America:
drink drive laws are strictly enforced
people have bigger and better homes so entertain at home more, don't use the pub as meeting place so much
more cheap drink available to take away from supermarkets
the old industries are gone and people are working more in service industries so have less regular time-off
everyone's more "middle class"
as one publican in rural Aberdeenshire said recently, in response to a petition against the closure of his pub
"if all the people signing this actually *drank* at the bloody pub, we wouldn't be closing"
People are more in love with the idea of a pub than the reality
I guess one response could be that if you didn't have to get a bank loan to have a few drinks at the pub, then more people would go there.
Years ago, you could go to the pub and for a couple of dollars you'd have a skinful if you wanted. At some stage drink got really expensive, so people now buy it from supermarkets, etc.
I hear the cost of a pint in Ireland these days and it is horrendous - are they joking?! You could buy a reasonable bottle of wine for the price of two pints for godsakes!
McDonalds has the old idea doesn't it - make it cheap, pack 'em in. Works a treat by the look of it. Meanwhile, pubs close. Greedy corporate breweries that's the problem - that's why the U.S. stock market crashed didn't it!!!
Drive you to eat burgers it would.
In those days DD, people were happy to drink just the Carlton Draught or Tooheys or Guinness, wahtever the local mass-market brew and weren't demanding "premium" lagers and alcopops.
And drink wasn't that cheap at the supermarkets, or available at all hours, so drink at the pub didn't look so expensive.
And governments have disproportionately increased the duty on drink in an attempt to engineer away the perceived social evils
and they lived in smaller housing, nearer the pubs, which weren't so much like the big beer barns, and publicans were content with a modest living .. need I go on?
'publicans were content with a modest living" - maybe everyone was content with a modest living then, rather than the rampant greed and financial one-upmanship, and the "I-deserve-to-be-better-off-than-everyone-else-because-I'm-just-great" syndrome around now.
Tooheys isn't even Australian-owned nowadays - another profit-hungry foreign corporate takeover. Same as Guinness. Hey, why don't they get all the beer made in China where people have to work for frighteningly low wages, so western corporations can make even more money! It's bullsh*te what goes on.
I wonder what the breweries and publicans will do when most of the pubs close - get into the stockmarket?!
Right on D.D. Even Budweiser has been bought by foreign interests! not that their product is so great but , for such a large, long-lived (and wealthy) family business to have been so handily bought out, well that should have been seen as a major warning sign... anyway here's a joke i just thought of-
Why does Chinese beer suck?
It's God's way of keeping them from taking over the world.... heh
As we can see from events in New York this week, corporations are not necessarily everyone's friends. They are in it for themselves of course and this is tolerated by our society insofar as it is for the common good. Global corporations today have stooped to the tried and tested old formula of obtaining near-slave labour (e.g. China, but elsewhere as well), and charging top dollar for their products in western markets. In doing so, they circumvent labour and minimum wage laws of their western home countries, as well as the inevitable affect on employment opportunities in those countries.
The corporate structure is only one commercial structure of course, there are others that better serve the interests of their members and customers.
In Australian supermarkets now, it is near to impossible to find any canned agricultural produce made in this country - this country which has / had some of the best agricultural produce and practices in the world. They even import fresh garlic from China for godsake!
Oranges, for example, and orange groves and other fruits are being dumped by the tonnes and ploughed in, so they can import orange juice from the other side of the world and maximise profits. Farming families of many generations are being forcibly put not just out of business, but into bankruptcy in many cases. This is being caused by the executives of large corporations importing fresh produce half way around the world from countries which have near to slave labour conditions, where there is an elite making even bigger profits off the backs of people there. Exploitation is alive and well and bigger than ever thanks to the *global* economy.
I don't buy anything that isn't made in my own country if I can help it - which I often can't. Most of the time I don't have a choice. That is a situation that has been engineered by corporation that want to corner markets and eventually charge whatever they like.
There are solutions to this, but they won't be taken up by the general population until life becomes so difficult that there is no other choice. We are approaching that situation.
I'd like to see you trying to adopt that practice of "not buying anything not made in the same country" in the UK, DD. You'd never drink good red wine again, for one thing. Or buy Irish CDs.
I prefaced that remark, Bren, with the proviso "if I can help it".
If there is a domestic choice, I choose that product. If there isn't, well there isn't a choice is there. My difficulty is with domestic industries and product suppliers that are literally wiped out by corporate executives importing often inferior goods from countries that tolerate working conditions and wages which are outlawed in most western countries, and have been progressively over the last few hundred years. These are hard-won rights, and they are being sidelined by corporate greed.
As I said (or maybe implied), corporations will depend on the general populace arguing among themselves as to the pros and cons of the current situation to take the focus off how they are ripping us off.
DD, they're wiped out by consumers preferring the imported product. Or, more specifically, by the Hawke-Keating government, correctly I believe, dismantling Australia's insular protectionist regime.
If "they" are ripping us off, how come so many things are cheaper now in real terms than they were in my youth?
The USA has many working conditions that are outlawed in Australia - would you refuse products from there until they give mandatory four-week annual leave, guaranteed wages to wait staff and free universal health care?
We all look third-world from Norway's point of view. Should they in turn refuse our produce?
In my local UK supermarket, I can buy Shepparton pears and South Australian wine. If UK consumers refuse these, (and prefer "local" EU produce) rural Victoria and South Australia will suffer as the UK market is bigger than their domestic market. You can blame "executives" all you like but *we* (in general, maybe not *you* specifically) are the ones making the choice
People need to make the choices, I don't disagree, but when there isn't a choice to make because other "choices" have been put out of business, that doesn't help the consumer - it only helps monopoly businesses.
Don't count on being able to buy Shepparton pears in the future either, if that is a benchmark, they could well be put out of business by cheap imports - which then suddenly become more expensive once Shepparton is out of the picture. No doubt you will have the same opportunity to choose the expensive cheap import there in the U.K.
Bren, the UK market is certainly bigger than the Australian market, but the Asian markets, and the US, for Australian produce is far bigger than the UK. Australian economic focus has not been on the UK for decades now.
"The USA has many working conditions that are outlawed in Australia - would you refuse products from there until they give mandatory four-week annual leave, guaranteed wages to wait staff and free universal health care?"
Of course not - but do you like buying goods from places where people work for poverty-level wages? I don't.
"is this thing on ?" AVERY significant number of us here in the USA work for what (comparatively speaking) the EU and the rest of the "modern world" would consider "poverty-level". it's been that way for a long time here. if you're not in debt up to tour ears, it's only because you don't have sh@%t!!!
Yeah, pipe, I've heard that. I've always thought it is pretty tough there.
Anyway, there's not much from the US for sale here, it'd be too expensive for people I'd say, and like Bren says, people may well choose an alternative because it is a bit cheaper, made possible by even lower *poverty-level wages" in other countries than in your neck of the woods.
Maybe things will change in that regard though, especially if the NYSE goes into a tailspin. We've got a live telecast of the NYSE opening bell coming up today. Someone must be very concerned!
yes. that and the cost of basic needs has risen exorbitantly. Decent health care, child care, decent food, transportation, housing costs have become more luxuries than neccessities. Then along comes the friendly Wal-Monster saying " We know you're poor, that's why we've sent all your jobs and tax money to countries where labor is even cheaper than it is here- So We Could Save You Money!!!"
Yes, it's bullsh*te isn't it. They're actually spinning it that exporting your jobs is good for you. Then they obliterate the local competition so you have no choice but to buy what they offer at the price they offer it - or you go without. Then you end up with less money so that even if you wanted to make another choice, you can't afford to! None of this happens by chance, it is by very deliberate design. Some will tell you that it is your fault. I don't buy that.
What would happen to the Wal-Monster if no one bought their expensive *cheap* imports? (If there was a choice!)
Where goes the U.S., so go we all, is what I always think, so if this sort of thing hasn't happened to *you* yet, it could be coming to a country near you! They're working on it!
"Wal-Mart has received at least $1bn of public money. Over 90% of its distribution centres and many of its retail outlets have been subsidised by county and local governments. They give the chain free land, they pay for the roads, water and sewerage required to make that land usable, and they grant it property tax breaks and subsidies (called tax increment financing) originally intended to regenerate depressed communities. Sometimes state governments give the firm straight cash as well: in Virginia, for example, Wal-Mart’s distribution centres receive handouts from the Governor’s Opportunity Fund."
As a baby boomer, I remember quite a few of my contemporaries in the late 60s-early 70s were raring for the world system to collapse round the ears of the bourgeois / war pigs / running dogs / the Establishment and its lackeys in general. They themselves, of course, would dodge nimbly through the wreckage, be heroes, and survive. It is very natural to assume this when one's young.
I wonder what they're thinking forty-odd years on, now this scenario seems quite likely to happen for real. Wonder? I assume some of them are bloody terrified.
I'm sooo glad I live in a country that is not run by old/new world classicist, laissez-faire-economics politicians.
Thanks to regulation of the banking system here by successive governments since the early 1990s, while a couple of banks might take a profit dive, none are apparently in any danger whatsoever of failing, even totally without any government support.
I'm playing in a pub tonight, I think I'll play something topical.
Start with The Bank of Ireland followed by
Sixpenny Money,
The Tenpenny Bit,
The Luck Penny,
The Banks, and finish off with The Hag with the Money,
Australia doesn't seem to have the concentration of right-wingers -- or people who think they benifit somehow from voting to the right -- that America has, so abundantly.
Quigs, there is a concentration of right-wingers, but of those, I think there is only a small proportion who are as right as right-wingers there, so they just don't have the numbers. The political culture has formed differently here too, from the U.S. in a number of ways, imo, which makes for these different perspectives.
I have a pet theory too that the greater the population of a place, the less empowered people are vis-a-vis 'the establishment'. Australia I don't think has crossed that threshold yet, so *ordinary* people can still aspire and reach positions of political influence - enough of them to constitute the majority anyway. So far.
It all seems so normal here to be like that, until you see this sort of thing unfolding around the world and realise that it is something a bit special here.
I really would like to know how politicians in some of these *leading* countries reconcile their view of their own absolute belief in the correctness of their actions and primacy in world standing, with getting it so wrong. It must cause them some confusion.
Yep! Their great -grand-dads had to relinquish the slaves -- they, and their decendants, worked out a similar relationship for the next 100 years. Yah, but for the slavery thing, they won their war; and we're all happy for 'em.
HEY, they pulled the video ! !!! What the guy says...the bailout bill applies worldwide, so any dodgy bank garbage from anywhere
will be bought by the US treasury and US taxpayers will have to pay for it...so that if there's a failed venture in Shang Hai or
Brisbane or in UK or anywhere else, the paperwork passes from the banks to the US treasury in return for dollars from the
US treasury. Someone asked for an additional clause limiting it to US assets, and Bush/Paulson vetoed it...it's clear what this
bill is about, it's looting the US of a quarter of its wealth, moving it overseas, via the banking system...sorry this is poor it's from
hearing the video once before it vanished..It's the biggest bank robbery in history, by an order of magnitude !
"It must cause them some confusion." Not a bit. They aren't bothered in the least. No self-doubt there, nor sense that some introspection might be called for.
The razor still cuts--the principle holds up well in modern science. It's basically just the idea that we shouldn't add bits that aren't necessary to explain something.
Like broadening the bail out to cover the planet just to show that it's a bad idea. It's already a bad idea even if applied to just the US.
Sure, Will. It sounds good, philosophically, but a smart scientist I read, said in practice these days, it's not a useful guide anymore, because so often explanations turn out to be very complex, weird and counterintuitive...
Hey that last link I posted suggests keeping cash on hand, enough to live for a while without a bankcard. If banks start falling fast, they may just refuse to pay out, like they did in Argentina.
What the effects of the bailout will be upon the price of oil...guess !
free reed when you go to the pub tonight ask the hag with the money if she has a boyfriend if not post her phone number i dont care how ugly she is as long as she is loaded ,my cookie jar is empty due to the crash im on the bones of me ar*e,skint and on the verge of hari kari
"Occam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham."
You guys don't have any of this red-state-vs-blue-state crap -- or-red-county-vs-blue-county crap. You have a popular vote; none of this electoral vote nonsense. Campaigning is conducted quickly there, and with a lot less expense. You don't have demagogues whipping up "culture wars." Oh yah, you haven't got an empire.
You nice americans might be wise to keep some cash in the house. When the banks stop paying out, they don't give any warning. Remember what happened in Argentina ? They just locked the doors.
You might be right. Such things could come to pass here. One anticipates a different sort of October surprise, though. McCain can't very well get elected in the face of a liquidity crisis. It would be a long time before a Republican could hope to run for any office, if they give us another 1929. What they might give us, instead, is another war.
Seems that Turner is a neo-Nazi crazy guy. Doesn't mean he's wrong, but doesn't add any confidence that he's right.
Trouble is, you can't believe *anybody* now. Remember when the pound came out of the euro currency chain ? John Major and Norman Lamont kept saying "Don't worry, everything's fine" while they threw £12 billion pounds down the drain and made George Soros very rich.
Great little video here explaining how money works and how the bankers now own and control America.
Bren, No amount of resources-based luck would have stopped the same bank meltdown happening in Australia as is happening elsewhere. Banks are regulated here, more so since the late 90s with APRA.
When other countries now putting their citizens through this pain realise that that is what is necessary, you will cease going through these traumas.
Why, when a police officer can book a citizen for a traffic infringement, that is accepted and expected, but if there is a similar "policing" agency for banks and financial sector, that is somehow regarded as "socialism"? Why is it ok for some sectors of society to do whatever they like, but others can't.
Yes, it's a very nice place to be here when the rest of the unregulated world goes into freefall. From here it is like looking at a really big storm in a gold-fish bowl.
For years my wife have wondered aloud (somewhat rhetorically, of course) about how people were doing it--all the stuff, the giant SUVs and the McMansions... We live in an old funky, but comfortable house in what used to be a semi-rural, middle class Northern California neighborhood. Over the past 10 years the open space around us has more or less totally been filled in with 3-5000 square foot homes. For about a year and a half the newer ones haven't been selling and there have been several foreclosures on ones that were bought when the prices were astronomical. "How were they doing it?" Obviously, they weren't. It's all pretty much a facade of the faux rich covering over a mountain of debt. FTR, at their peak "value," these houses were going for $1,000,000+. Several of the bigger ones were priced at $1.2 million. The people who bought in at those prices are taking a BIG hit... Not seeing many Hummers on the road these days, are we?
We don't need another war. I work as a medical clerk at a veteran's hospital and we are already having a difficult enough time just dealing with all of the veterans who come here for treatment or medicines or other assistance. Yes, we are already serving veterans who have been in Afghanistan and Iraq. The clerk who works in the Emergency Room on the day shift was stationed in Iraq when she had to be medically discharged from the Air Force which meant that the Veteran's Administration had to find her a job somewhere so they assigned her to work in the ER.
Presumably the indefatigability of your American friends in need of education exceeds that of ben (or myself)
I'm already reading of pubs and restaurants tightening their belts due to economic situation, or fear of same.
I wonder if this will have a positive or negative effect on the humble pub session?
I know that this is where we came in, but there must be +some+ positive effect, surely?
Apart from the vindication of those who would love to see everyone forced to live a more frugal life, I mean
"Say, were any of you boys Irish trad musicians, or if not Irish trad
musicians per se, were you otherwise trained in the musical arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wandering ?-------------Oh brother where art thou
The Crash
Re: The Crash
I don't think two quarters of negative growth quite constitute a "recession".
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by mcdevincabe
Re: The Crash
Buy a few spare whistles in case the factories stop producing, I suppose.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by nicholas
Re: The Crash
I have been learning "Poor But Happy at 53". Perhaps that is somehow relevant to the situation.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by timmy!
Re: The Crash
We will be too busy reading all the media stories announcing and pronouncing on the fall of capitalism. No time to play music.
You know, like when communism allegedly fell back in 1989/90, the TV and papers were full of it.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: The Crash
I'm hoarding bananas and waiting for the price of Lee Oskars to crash.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: The Crash
I can't believe the Yanks are bickering. It astonishes me that they would rather score political points than agree a consensus to shore up their beloved capitalism - the feckin idiots. It's like the fall of the feckin' roman empire.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: The Crash
It's astonishing, isn't it? The Fed and Wall Street can't run a financial empire properly, ran the boom and bust completely out of control like punch-drunk pigs at the trough.
The City of London on the other hand...
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Crash
It's not all the yanks that are bickering-it's the wretched leeches that want to get re-elected and are afraid to p*ss off their constituents.They don't have the stones to take a stand, even if it's a bad one. Let em crash and burn.....
We might as well play while Rome burns.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by rogfox
Re: The Crash
The real problem is that it's election time, and the bailout bill is unpopular with voters. It has to pass one way or another though, or the financial system will collapse completely.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Marklar
Re: The Crash
I love (in the ironic sense) the righteous indignation from across the pond. Wasn't it Churchill that said "Democracy is the worst form of goverment... except for every other form of government"
Recession: there are two consecutive quarters of decline in economic activity as measured by a decrease in GDP, the economy is said to be in a recession. During a recession, prices fall, consumers don't buy as many products (especially high-priced items), and businesses begin to fail. ...
www.enotes.com/business-finance-encyclopedia/economic-cycles
Save your gig money! Musicians' gigs are one of the classic bellwethers of the economy.
I, for one, am happy to have a hobby that one can do alone in a cabin in the mountains. Might need to...
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Georgi
Re: The Crash
Georgi, come back to Montana some time and we can probably arrange that
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by polkageist
Re: The Crash
...not alone, though, right? I mean, we'd all session together, eh?
Too bad they moved the Unibomber cabin to the Smithsonian--wouldda made an interesting session space....
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Crash
Will the financial system collapse? Not all economists agree
on that -- some think it's better to let a few businesses fail to
sort out the dead wood.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Hup
Re: The Crash
I don't think either the American politicians who said 'No' *or* the ones who said 'Yes' to the rescue plan are "feckin' idiots". I honestly believe they are sincere. And I think that comment indicates a lack of understanding of how difficult the situation is.
But never mind politics.
Are you alive? Are you healthy? PLAY CHUNES!!!
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: The Crash
So how did the music / musicians fare last time round, in the Thirties? Some historian here might know.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by nicholas
Re: The Crash
At least the casino kind of capitalism crashes. At last. Yeah!
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: The Crash
Oh, and for anyone wondering about the soundness of the bail-out plan, here's a peice of reassurance for you. This is from a US Treasury spokeswoman, speaking to Forbes.com when asked why $700 billion was the magic bail-out number:
'It's not based on any particular data point... We just wanted to choose a really large number.'
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: The Crash
People drink more in Recession hence the Irish pub trade may be revitalised, hence more music in pubs hence more gigs. I have stockpiled on instruments this year knowing that approval from the Fed ( wife) might be more difficult in the economic climate going forward.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by premierview
Re: The Crash
We could be doing Nero's job. Wasn't he playing the fiddle while Rome was burning?
(Not that the fiddle as we know it had been developed by then)
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by kuec
Re: The Crash
The tears just wont stop running down my face, I really can't stop laughing at the sight of these p*icks bemoaning the loss of their million dollar/pound bonuses, having to take the kiddies out of private schools, reducing the number of servants, selling the yacht, go rot in hell, the lot of you. Time for change, time for a socially responsible response to capitalist greed, time for representation of the working classes, time for mobilisation of trade unions, time to sing the songs of Woody Guthrie, time to reflect and time to think positive.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by strayaway
Re: The Crash
Might be a good thing in the end of the day in terms of people playing more music for themselves. Less disposable income - more self reliance etc.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: The Crash
"how did the music / musicians fare last time round?"
Watch Some Like it Hot and find out. Then go join an all girl band.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: The Crash
The planet might breathe a sigh of relief with less people wanting ridiculously huge plasma screens and just about every other device you plug in, while moaning about fuel bills. I've got an open fire, a stack of logs, some oil lamps (a little oil goes a long way if you're not using it to drive anywhere), candles, and musical instruments that don't need plugging in. I was quite happy during the power cuts of the 70's, and they'll be back (it's being so pessimistic that keeps me cheerful!). How will the Farcebook/iPhone/blackberry generation fare when you can't plug anything in? Mind you, we'll have to exchange rants by carrier pigeon!
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by RichardB
Re: The Crash
I think the $m700 bailout is mass psychology,
not really economics - although the two things are related,
aren't they? The truth is even the mighty US Govt cannot raise
the 10s of trillions needed to bail out the system.
Yes! Thank god for the tunes! When the big asteroid comes
to town, I want to be in an all night session.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Hup
Re: The Crash
I take that all back, 'cos I just this minute got an email from "Mrs. Orbersi Brenda" of the "irish customer unit" telling me I've won £1,350,000.00! (shame there's no pennies). I'm just worried now about what bank to put it in before I go and spend it all!
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by RichardB
Re: The Crash
mmmm .. pigeon
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the problem as one for the Wall Street fat cats. Hot shot bullsh*te sales people are responsible for the U.S. mortgage crisis which has brought these banks down which is at the bottom of this problem.
Fat cats have earned enough bonuses in the past that they and their families will weather whatever storm. The people who suffer in depressions are ordinary working people and the further down the socio-economic ladder they are, the more they suffer. Never mind not being able to afford houses, the last time something like this magnitude happened (in the Great Depression) millions of people could barely afford toilet paper!
You better hope that the U.S. government is allowed to sort out this mess. It's a U.S. problem and needs a U.S. solution.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
"Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.
No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:
"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.
"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.
"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.
"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions."
Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout.
The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.
And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.
Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?
It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.
This bailout's mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It's to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It's to make sure their yachts and mansions and "way of life" go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars!
I have to stop writing this and you have to stop reading it. They are staging a financial coup this morning in our country. They are hoping Congress will act fast before they stop to think, before we have a chance to stop ".
Well said, IMO, whoever said it.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
And another one I endorse...
"This IS NOT about individual home owner's mortgages and the credit card society. The hard assets in the form of properties and so on do not vanish, the banks still hold the deeds. The descent in property values vs. the true capital exposure held on the bank's accounts is not a significant amount compared to the exposure they have due to the "illegal" packaging of those loans into derivative securities. It's not the home loan, it's the millions of pretend dollars built on top of each of those home loans.
Think about it, a 100k property was converted into a 3 million dollar security instrument which in turn was converted into 30 million in hedge vehicles. This is why the push was made to remove the regulations which prevented this type of game - the SEC and the FED basically allowed the banks to create 29.9 million of debt with a hard asset value of only 100k. This was a huge ponzi scheme, a pyramid scheme where the people who created and sold these helium balloon investment vehicles profited and left the last hands holding these things to burn. Guess who those last hands belong to? China and other countries who purchased them and also purchase the majority of our treasury bonds. When they get burned on these BS mortgage based securities they sure as hell aren't going to be holding or buying treasury bonds.
If the real problem was with foreclosures then the solution would be to buy up all the bad mortgages and put the base back under the pyramid. The real world cost of doing that has been estimated at around 50 to 100 million. Obviously that's not what the plan is because that's not where the real problem lies. The real problem is that ego and greed combined with a blind eye from the DC powers allowed the investment banks to go completely insane, repackaging and re selling these same hollow derivative vehicles over and over again until the eventual collapse of these funds was inevitable.
That's why they need hundreds of billions, actually quadrillions of dollars for this "bail out". They want to buy back these funds so the rest of the World doesn't drop wall street and the US economy like a 5 dollar crack whore. They need to sweep it all under a big rug and god forbid the facts and real figures come out. Not only would wall street generate thousands of new federal prisoners but most of the politicians, appointees and so on would also burn. They intend to rape the public to cover their own asses, period.
There are other solutions, better ones - but they don't include a mechanism to hide the evidence. Mark my words. If these criminals get their way we will all suffer for it and the next rounds of "financial 911's" will make this one look like a minor market hiccup. There is not enough real money in the entire world to buy our way out of this one. Americans need to realize this for what it really is and begin dealing with reality, making the tough decisions and taking the hard but correct course to fix it. I don't see that happening. Another few days of market drops and bank crashes and they'll be calling DC to beg for the quick and easy fix. (And pay for it with our society)"
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
If all else fails, maybe we can sell our fiddles and banjos etc at bargain basement prices at the local pawn shop. That should buy the next meal. After that? ....there's always lilting.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_-hBFcWbBk
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
Wonderful that a few Americans still have some spirit to resist the abuse and lies...
"Keep up the letter writing campaigns, keep up the emails, keep up the phone calls. This is the revolution people! This is how it will go down. Without a gun, without blood, but with words and us taking our country back the right way, by forcing those in power to yield to our will.
Yes there will be a recession, it's overdue, we have to endure it. Washington can't postpone it forever. Don't throw good money after bad. Let it happen, yes times will be tough. But we as a society got through tough times before, we will get through these tough times ahead. It's not about Wall Street, it's about Main Street. It's about the middle class, it's about the people that wake up every day and contribute to the gross national product. These are the people that need to be helped. They need to be helped by making sure that those on Wall Street do not get away with bad business and loose the money of people that work hard for it.
We should NOT bail out Wall Street but Investigate Wall Street. Don't pay them for being crooks, punish them for being crooks. If they threw away your 401K cause of bad loans, they should be held accountable for that money. If they used predatory lending practices to put you in a home you can't possibly afford they should be held accountable for those practices. We shouldn't be held accountable for their criminal and felonious assault on our economy. They should be held accountable for their bad business and those that chose this path should go down for it."
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
http://www.banned-books.com/truth-seeker/1994archive/121_3/ts213l.html
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
"Let the rich suffer for once." wolf.
Trouble is, wolf, the rich rarely suffer even in the worst of times.
The Romanovs were an exception of course.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
Good will come out of it – the standard lessons will be re-learned:
Greed isn’t good;
Michael Douglas’s name is Michael Douglas, not Gordon Gekko;
Gordon Gekko is not looking after your interests;
Debt isn’t good;
When you borrow money – it ain’t yours.
When you borrow money you trade your freedom;
Credit cards aren’t good;
The best thing about a credit card is a zero balance owing;
Houses aren’t piggy banks – they are to keep the rain off you and your family, and so that you don’t have to live in a tent.
It is best to build houses out of bricks, not sticks or straw.
Rich people need to do things the right way – or other people suffer.
Government regulation can make people do the right thing (depending on who is running the government).
The price of gas at the bowser does not necessarily reduce when the price of a barrel of oil collapses;
Wars are expensive and strategically unwise when your enemies and their families and acquaintances own the oil.
To list just a few. Other additions would be most welcome.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
DD: wars are always unwise. Oil or no oil involved.
All good things in life are free. And that's were we come in, just playing music for the fun of it. Shouldn't be allowed.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by kuec
Re: The Crash
You guys are thinking there is a choice here, between a good thing and a bad thing.
Those aren't the options. The choice is between a bad thing and an even worse thing.
If the banks keep on crashing, that'll lead to recession and possibly another Depression.
BUT, if the American taxpayers are forced to bail out the banks, you'll STILL get the recession and possible Depression, but it will be even worse, because the dollar will be like toilet paper, (there'll be hyperinflation) and the taxpayers will never be able to pay enough taxes to cover all that money that's going to the bankers and the rich elite who caused the mess.
Have you looked at the numbers ? The Fed is broke. The debt is trillions and trillions of dollars already. It'll take hundreds of years to repay. That's insane.
I know, it's going to be horrible either way. The poor always suffer and the rich get away with their crimes. But, the way to fix this mess is to limit the damage, not make it worse. Printing trillions of dollars to bail out bankers doesn't fix anything, it just hastens even greater ruin and greater poverty for the US taxpayers over the longer term.
You simply cannot believe what most of the US and UK politicians and mainstream media are saying. They speak with forked tongues. Almost all of them are controlled by the big financial interests, that is, the banking industry.
Nobody bailed out the UK miners or the dockers or the steelworkers. Why is it different for rich investment bankers all of a sudden ?
There will be a crash, and a lot of innocent people will be badly hurt. That's inevitable now. So, why make the crash even deeper and more long lasting by printing money to save the guys who caused the mess ? That wont solve anything. It'll make things much, much worse
Listen to Ron Paul and Marcy Kaptur and Kuchinik, not the people who are just sock puppets for Bush and Paulson and their buddies who are looting the American economy for their own benefit.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4933960062431353720&hl=en
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog/?p=649
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
kuec, I'd think there'd be plenty of people who said it was wise to fight against the nazis in WW2 - the Americans had more oil than their enemies in that one, so strategically, it was a pretty good bet who would win eventually.
I hate wars too, but it seems to be an ancient practice, doesn't it. No one seems to have found out a way to stop them yet.
No one intervened in the market crash before the Great Depression either, and as a result principles concerning government monetary and fiscal policy were formulated. Not doing anything now could lead to a similar meltdown, but it will not lead to the world revolution.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
THIS is the lady I admire at this historic moment ! She's dead right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S27yitK32ds
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
"No one intervened in the market crash before the Great Depression either"
You're mistaken, DD. They did exactly what they are doing now, creating more debt to cover the previous bad debt, digging the hole deeper and deeper.
To have the Fed create billions more dollars out of thin air to try and prop up the failing bank structure cannot possibly work. It's a disaster. It'll make USA like the Weimar Republic or Zimbabwe.
Let the banks crash. Let the bubble burst. That itself will be terrible for millions of people who lose their jobs and businesses. But the pain will be worth it. Trying to keep the present bubble going is crazy, that will only make the catastrophe much, much worse and longer lasting.
Look, if you're spent up to the limit on your credit card, what you need to do is stop spending and get finances back in order. That can be hard.
But what Bush and Paulson want, (and have been doing all year) is take out another credit card and get into more debt to pay the first card. And then another and another and another...
Eventually, the crash will come, when all the cards are used to the limit and the problem is way, way worse than if you'd sorted things out on the first card.
The Fed is broke. There's nothing to support the dollar. Printing billions more dollars is totally irresponsible.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
"Printing billions more dollars is totally irresponsible"
I doubt whether that will be a reason not to intervene, wolf.
Hey, and didn't we hear that the Irish Government has just guaranteed all banks there a similar bail-out?
Then there's the ongoing nationalising of the British banks isn't there?
Must have something going for it!
We don't seem to have the problem here...the government is actually injecting $4billion into the house loan market to give a helping hand to the non-bank mortage lenders - to help them stay afloat - and provide competition against the big banks.
Go figure!
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
The Irish Government *obviously* has an eye to the music, wisely so...if any pubs there have bank loans to banks that are in danger of going under, no problem now apparently, the government will prop up the bank, which will prop up the loan to the pub...so sessions can continue - in the pub.
What goes around comes around doesn't it - or vice versa anyway.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
It probably has an ear to the music as well.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
It takes a lot of bailing out and screwing around with a 'crisis' to make it a 'panic'. That's what happened in 1929 and that's what is happening now. They have a 'crisis' and freak out. They print money like a printing press on amphetamines and turn the 'crisis' into a 'disaster' or a 'depression'.
The analogy of a terminal alcoholic or heroin addict works best.
They just want a little more. It's giving it to them that has caused the problem in the first place. No addict will stop themselves voluntarily, and if you keep enabling them, they will never stop. They will drink or shoot themselves to death before they stop.
Break out the guillotines.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Crash
The architects of the current financial debacle have hurt our
national security as much as any terrorist act, and as such, their
malpractice constitutes an actionable offense, punishable by
incarceration, seizure of assets and confiscation of personal wealth. Just my $00.00000000002.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by fidkid
Re: The Crash
That'd be US$00.00000000002, wouldn't it.
Who are the architects anyway?
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
The architects? Wall Street and the financial corporate oligarchy.
You don't really think we have a republic or a democracy here, do you? Elephants and Donkeys are window dressing for those that watch American Idol.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Crash
It'll be US$00.00000000000000000000002 by now...
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by nicholas
Re: The Crash
KWT
I think the recession/collapse/financial ruin of both Ireland, Britain and 'America' will be great for pub culture myself....since everyone will be out of work there will be no where to go. You won't want to stay home and weep with the missus over the disappearance of your 401K plan now would you? Not on your life, so people will drink to drown their sorrows in pubs and bars...the exact places musos are known to inhabit! Gigging will increase. Musicians will actually BECOME RICH on the back of others' financial disaster.
The financial meltdown is a blessing in disguise for anyone who makes money offa ITM. And even really bad players will now be called in for gigs and will form desparate bands that will tour nationally.
It has never been better for ITM IMHO.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by mtodd
Re: The Crash
I'm a small shareholder, so that's me b*ggered.
Or as some might say, beggared.
Not me, though.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by nicholas
Re: The Crash
Isn't it strange how Nancy and Barny and so many Dems want the bailout; while so many of tose fellows on the other, usually more evil side are against it? Must all be in the details.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
THOSE
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
I've got two other names for you: Freddie and Fannie.
This entirely survivable semi-demi-crash's cause is unsexy enough to not receive much scrutiny. Most journalists are ill-equipped to explain it anyway, and the truth is boring enough that most readers won't bother digging. But here you go, neatly summed up:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0
When all's said and done, the Great Depression this ain't. Though folks do long for dramatic lives.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The Crash
Whilst discussing this whole debacle with a friend yesterday he offered the caveat that he felt he was not sufficiently educated in economics to expect his opinion on the matter to be of value. I quickly reminded him that it was the opinions of the very people he measured his failings against, those he would consider scholars of economics, that created the debacle to begin with. I then asked him again to tell me how his opinions were with-out merit.
Aye, the greatest seduction in history is beginning to unravel. At some point I hope we realize money shouldn't be at the top of the heap.
I'm with Wolfbird on this one. Incarcerate those that brought this on, politicians from both sides of the aisle included, seize their assets, face the music, care for one another as we struggle through the aftermath, and never, never, let just two political parties have as much power as they do today in our country.
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by ejsant
Re: The Crash
Hey, SWFL, you don't need guillotines. What you need is available in any hardware store, the traditional American length of rope. It was tried and tested way, way back, and found to be an efficacious remedy against traitors and those who stole from the People
http://elainemeinelsupkis.typepad.com/money_matters/2008/09/gollum-still-wa.html
Atahualpa, no mystery. The bankers pay both sides equally. It's called hedging your bets. That's there expertise - hedge funds. They apply the same principle to buying up politicians, so, whichever way you vote, they always win...look at this
http://wwsd.biz/economists/
Note, Lehmans and others backed McCain AND Obama...
The majority of US politicians are bought and owned by corporate interests, and vote accordingly. Usually they can safely ignore the voters, but this time the American public know they are getting screwed. And not just them, their children and gran-children. There just isn't enough money in circulation on the planet to cover all the debts that the banks have run up. The only answer is to let 'em fail. Set up new ones, more like credit unions, that are anchored in real money and value, not insane derivatives that are just theft in disguise.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
I joined 'accordion players for Obama", revisited the concept of getting a street performer license in Chicago and upped my playing time daily.
Being a musician is countercyclical. When business is good the music money is, well, crummy. When business tanks, music money doesn't change much. In fact, it might even get better because people can't shout at you to go get a 'real job' because there aren't any, and throw a few extra coins into the case...
I say we get all the accordionists, bodhran players and highland pipers in the US together for a "Million Musician March on Washington".
We won't stop playing until the Clowns in the D.C. circus get things straightened out!
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by zippydw
Re: The Crash
http://www.countercurrents.org/ronpaul300908.htm
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
NEW Ear Canal Oil, the explanation you cite was written by Kevin Hassert, director of economic-policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, a well-known right-wing think tank. He's also an adviser to McCain.
Hardly an unbiased view of the debacle....
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Crash
That'd be "Hassett," sorry.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Crash
Just to be clear, take a look at who's on the board of trustees at American Enterprise Institute: http://www.aei.org/about/filter.,contentID.20038142214500073/default.asp
The list includes the CEO of Exxon and top guns from insurance, credit card, chemical, and pharmaceutical corporations. Not quite the "non-partisan" organization it claims to be.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Crash
Good old American rope ~ "an efecatious remedy for traitors and those who stole from the people." It may have done, here, on some occasions; I can't exactly think when. Most of the judicial, and extra-judicial hangings in this country were of poor unfortunates. Is it a time tested remedy in England?
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
I take it the Dems want the bail-out so as to control the banks, and the Republicans don't want it because they don't want to pay extra taxes to enable this, or for any other reason.
British political parties are in hock to big financiers too. This is because nobody will join them anymore and pay the fees.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by nicholas
Re: The Crash
Wolfbird ~ I'm usually the one with the hang-'em-all attitude.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
zippydw - Be careful what you ask for.
Faced with a million tanked-up pipers and tradheads, a nervy Washington administration might just say, "OK, lads, it's all yours..."
CAN YOU *IMAGINE* A COUNTRY RUN BY TRAD MUSOS ?
!!!! FECK !!!!
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by nicholas
Re: The Crash
Plain greed is at the heart of all this, and both political parties can shoulder blame for letting it happen. The situation won't improve (for the long haul) until we decide to hold corporations accountable.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Crash
House voices, nicholas, house voices.....
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
FAIRLY SOON ALL MONEY WILL BE WORTHLESS IT WILL GO BACK TO THE BARTER SYSTEM I HAVE TWO BIG BAGS OF FRESH DUG SPUDS ANY ONE WANT TO TRADE FOR A GIBSON MANDOLIN A4 MUST BE IN GOOD NICK.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by myparasgon
Re: The Crash
"Americans could likely purchase every single house in foreclosure for $700 billion"
http://www.dakotademocrat.com/?p=149
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
They say the good ole USofA was built on 3 boxes: the soap box, ballot box and cartridge box.
Let’s add B/Cs and make it an even 4. Who’s with me? Now, if some of you kind villagers will help me light these torches, we’ll be off to the Big Houses.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by fidkid
Re: The Crash
MYPARASGON ~ SOME TIMES I FORGET TO PUT IN MY HEARING AID AND THEN I GO AROUND SHOUTING AT EVERYONE ALL DAY.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
Atahualpa, one of my ancestors was once the 'most wanted dead or alive' in England. He upset everybody, the King, the Church, the Commons, everybody. He was on the run for three years before they caught him, but he didn't get hanged, he talked his way out of it....runs in the family I guess...let Duijera Dubh be my witness, hahaha
I'd love to stay on this thread all night, but I'm exceptionally busy at the moment.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
Will CPT—You're absolutely right as to who the article's author is. Disclosure like that in story attributions is why I trust Bloomberg (as opposed to—gack—the New York Times as to owning up to any political bias among their financial, and other, "reporters").
I posted that particular link because the article is succinct and correct—also because there is such a yawningly obvious political tilt to the popular U.S. media (advertisers love that soft, suburban housewifely Left). But Freddie and Fannie are at the crux of this trouble and a sane, unbiased media would and should have those agencies as the primary focus as to "why this happened."
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The Crash
atahualpa quigley heres how to cure that drill a small hole in your ear and attach your hearing aid to it when you turn your head quickly it will probably smack you in the face somewhere then youll be reminded to stick it in your lughole.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by myparasgon
Re: The Crash
A Sane, unbiased media should focus on those agencies, the de-regulation of those agencies, and the good folks who championed all that de-regulation.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
Atahualpa—exactly so! Please read the link:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The Crash
myparasgone ~ Thanks for the tip. Ive got the paper punch in my hand right now.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
NEW Pure Drop ~ You blame the Dems, and only the Dems for de-regulation?
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
fannie and freddie should be fried in the chair my nest egg is no more, how selfish can you get owing all those houses,
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by myparasgon
Re: The Crash
Starting with Reagan, Gingrich, Sen. Phil whats-his-name fromTexas (the former head of the Senate Banking Committee) or quite a number of others from the Republican side. Confine your focus only to the Dems and you miss a much larger, older picture.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
Come on you lovely American peoples, give it some stick ! you deserve better politicians...
http://www.votenobailout.org/
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
Maybe if Democrats had voted to rein in Freddie and Fannie, they would have been faced with angry Dem voters whose low mortgage payments were hiked or disallowed in consequence of this. Just a thought.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by nicholas
Re: The Crash
myparasgone ~ Is that true about your savings?
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
Sorry, you needn't answer that. This is NOT a hemi-semi-demi crisis.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
I BLAME THEM ALL DAG NAMMIT! STRING THEM ALL UP! BRING THE TROOPS HOME FROM IRAQ AND INVADE WALL STREET AND DC! THE FRIZZLE FREKKIN SASSA FRASSIN AAARRGLE FRUM FRAAACK!!!
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Crash
Oh, sorry, yes, I'm feeling better now. The all-caps yelling is contagious. Therapeutic, too, but contagious.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Crash
1:00 o'clock . See some of you at 5:30. G'night in advance to the Irish and Brits.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
yep i cannont tell a lie ,i am in ruins, the end of my world is nigh goodnight vienna and all that iwas going to jump but i cant stand hights
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by myparasgon
Re: The Crash
What is the difference between Bush and Chavez? Bush has nationalised more banks.
I hate that commie b######rd Bush.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: The Crash
goodbye cruel world
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by myparasgon
Re: The Crash
Nicholas—¡Exactamundo, mi amigo! Vote-buying in the "community" is the (shall we say, under-reported) story here . . .
Atahualpa—A sea of lobbyists for private industries are there pushing both parties for or against regulation in Washington, absolutely. What's different—and much worse—about Freddie and Fannie is that you're talking about two enormous, deeply corrupt governmental agencies/Democratic party fiefdoms spending taxpayer dollars to lobby both sides of the political aisle. And yep, the lobbying worked: a little hand-slap for fraudulent accounting in 2003-4 and F & F went back to buying up vast seas of bad mortgages. That, far and away, is what caused this (hopefully hemi-semi-demi) collapse.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The Crash
Here's your set: The Crash / The Kesh / The Thrush in the Bush
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The Crash
Here's another perspective--just a blogger's opinion: http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080930/cm_csm/ysmith;_ylt=AmolRhHsVqE4DK3z97k611ms0NUE
Less about who's to blame.
The mortgage mess starts at the state level, where regulation is primitive at best.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Crash
Breathe.
# Posted on September 30th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: The Crash
It's all an illusion anyway.
Whatever the 'value' of all the stocks on Wall Street, no-one could buy them if they all went up for sale at once, there isn't enough cash in all the world. These last few weeks have just shown what a house of cards it all is. Why people trust all the mythology is beyond me.
But meanwhile we all have to eat. keep warm and dry, and be kind to our neighbour. That should keep the world going.
How to build a community;
1) Turn off the tv.
2) Step out of your front door.
3) Play some music.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The Crash
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by AlBrown
Re: The Crash
Guernsey Pete, I wholeheartedly agree. Good to touch base with likeminded folks here, as we do at our local sessions.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Crash
Bottle shops and off-licences in Australia and UK both report that people are buying more, and cheaper, drink, and drinking at home.
The idea that people will respond to the crisis/crunch/whatever by going out and playing/listening to music in pubs is a fantasy. I wish it were true.
Pubs are still closing at a steady rate in UK/Ireland
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
If pubs are closing in Ireland you should be able to pick up a license for a song wouldn't you. Oh well, a tune anyway.,
Seriously.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
No - rents and licences are still high and most are being converted to residential or offices, never to be pubs again
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
Someone reported here a while back that pubs in Ireland were closing for good. This was going on in more prosperous times. Are the music pubs going belly-up now as well? It can't simply be because of operating costs. That sounds more like a change in people's tastes and habits.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
I understand it is usually standing room only at Matt Malloy's pub - and that's outside!
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
It's one more thing to add to the list of stuff that the Irish in Ireland abandon, and Americans perpetuate -- after a fashion. There's nothing hoakier than an "Irish Theme Bar" in the US.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
Never know, they might have Irish Theme Bars in Ireland eventually.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
For tourists, or locals?
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
The Irish tourists here, come to see our local to have a laugh. The Irish nationals who live and work here, come to the same local out of some homesickness, or something.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
The locals!
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
Could be....could be, way off in the future. You never know. BTW, some Tennesseans set me straight about the identity of the real Hunter Lee. Thanks for being game; that was hilarious! Well played.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
Come to think of it: are you certain the old lady whom you saw was H.L.'s grand daughter, and not Bertha Jr.?
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
The other H.L, that is.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
"Are the music pubs going belly-up now as well?"
Of course. Music will not save you (if you're a pub)
"they might have Irish Theme Bars in Ireland eventually"
They're quite common already. Decor supplied by the same people who furnish "Irish" pubs overseas.
Irish tourists and others go to Irish theme pubs overseas for the same reasons locals do: often they're the only decent pub in town; there's an understood premise that a lone traveller can go there for the sole purpose of making conversation; and they often have music and sessions.
In that way, they've actually been quite successful.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
Sounds as if there is a deeper social change happening over there, more than the hassle with prohibitive costs. Is it that unprofitable to keep a bar in Ireland these days?
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
Irish theme pubs here are in name and furnishings - and they might have a Guinness tap. Otherwise there isn't much Irish about them. Usually fairly spacious and woody though, so they're ok to be in. The Irish pub you have when you don't have an Irish pub - sort of thing. Yes, they're popular.
One of the most popular venues here now is The Gaelic Club, where there are queues down the street to get in many nights. Everyone in the queue though seems to be dressed in grunge gear or whatever, lots of silver chains and black clothes - I'm not into it, but it's that sort of look, I think. Lots of those sorts of apparently really *cool* amped bands. No Irish music there at all, ever. The owners just rent the room from the empty Irish Club bar upstairs, or they bought it off them.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
It's the same changes as are happening in UK, and happened long ago in Aus/North America:
drink drive laws are strictly enforced
people have bigger and better homes so entertain at home more, don't use the pub as meeting place so much
more cheap drink available to take away from supermarkets
the old industries are gone and people are working more in service industries so have less regular time-off
everyone's more "middle class"
I'm sure you could all add a few
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
as one publican in rural Aberdeenshire said recently, in response to a petition against the closure of his pub
"if all the people signing this actually *drank* at the bloody pub, we wouldn't be closing"
People are more in love with the idea of a pub than the reality
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
I guess one response could be that if you didn't have to get a bank loan to have a few drinks at the pub, then more people would go there.
Years ago, you could go to the pub and for a couple of dollars you'd have a skinful if you wanted. At some stage drink got really expensive, so people now buy it from supermarkets, etc.
I hear the cost of a pint in Ireland these days and it is horrendous - are they joking?! You could buy a reasonable bottle of wine for the price of two pints for godsakes!
McDonalds has the old idea doesn't it - make it cheap, pack 'em in. Works a treat by the look of it. Meanwhile, pubs close. Greedy corporate breweries that's the problem - that's why the U.S. stock market crashed didn't it!!!
Drive you to eat burgers it would.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
In those days DD, people were happy to drink just the Carlton Draught or Tooheys or Guinness, wahtever the local mass-market brew and weren't demanding "premium" lagers and alcopops.
And drink wasn't that cheap at the supermarkets, or available at all hours, so drink at the pub didn't look so expensive.
And governments have disproportionately increased the duty on drink in an attempt to engineer away the perceived social evils
and they lived in smaller housing, nearer the pubs, which weren't so much like the big beer barns, and publicans were content with a modest living .. need I go on?
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
'publicans were content with a modest living" - maybe everyone was content with a modest living then, rather than the rampant greed and financial one-upmanship, and the "I-deserve-to-be-better-off-than-everyone-else-because-I'm-just-great" syndrome around now.
Tooheys isn't even Australian-owned nowadays - another profit-hungry foreign corporate takeover. Same as Guinness. Hey, why don't they get all the beer made in China where people have to work for frighteningly low wages, so western corporations can make even more money! It's bullsh*te what goes on.
I wonder what the breweries and publicans will do when most of the pubs close - get into the stockmarket?!
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
Right on D.D. Even Budweiser has been bought by foreign interests! not that their product is so great but , for such a large, long-lived (and wealthy) family business to have been so handily bought out, well that should have been seen as a major warning sign... anyway here's a joke i just thought of-
Why does Chinese beer suck?
It's God's way of keeping them from taking over the world.... heh
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: The Crash
As we can see from events in New York this week, corporations are not necessarily everyone's friends. They are in it for themselves of course and this is tolerated by our society insofar as it is for the common good. Global corporations today have stooped to the tried and tested old formula of obtaining near-slave labour (e.g. China, but elsewhere as well), and charging top dollar for their products in western markets. In doing so, they circumvent labour and minimum wage laws of their western home countries, as well as the inevitable affect on employment opportunities in those countries.
The corporate structure is only one commercial structure of course, there are others that better serve the interests of their members and customers.
In Australian supermarkets now, it is near to impossible to find any canned agricultural produce made in this country - this country which has / had some of the best agricultural produce and practices in the world. They even import fresh garlic from China for godsake!
Oranges, for example, and orange groves and other fruits are being dumped by the tonnes and ploughed in, so they can import orange juice from the other side of the world and maximise profits. Farming families of many generations are being forcibly put not just out of business, but into bankruptcy in many cases. This is being caused by the executives of large corporations importing fresh produce half way around the world from countries which have near to slave labour conditions, where there is an elite making even bigger profits off the backs of people there. Exploitation is alive and well and bigger than ever thanks to the *global* economy.
I don't buy anything that isn't made in my own country if I can help it - which I often can't. Most of the time I don't have a choice. That is a situation that has been engineered by corporation that want to corner markets and eventually charge whatever they like.
There are solutions to this, but they won't be taken up by the general population until life becomes so difficult that there is no other choice. We are approaching that situation.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
I'd like to see you trying to adopt that practice of "not buying anything not made in the same country" in the UK, DD. You'd never drink good red wine again, for one thing. Or buy Irish CDs.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
I prefaced that remark, Bren, with the proviso "if I can help it".
If there is a domestic choice, I choose that product. If there isn't, well there isn't a choice is there. My difficulty is with domestic industries and product suppliers that are literally wiped out by corporate executives importing often inferior goods from countries that tolerate working conditions and wages which are outlawed in most western countries, and have been progressively over the last few hundred years. These are hard-won rights, and they are being sidelined by corporate greed.
As I said (or maybe implied), corporations will depend on the general populace arguing among themselves as to the pros and cons of the current situation to take the focus off how they are ripping us off.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
DD, they're wiped out by consumers preferring the imported product. Or, more specifically, by the Hawke-Keating government, correctly I believe, dismantling Australia's insular protectionist regime.
If "they" are ripping us off, how come so many things are cheaper now in real terms than they were in my youth?
The USA has many working conditions that are outlawed in Australia - would you refuse products from there until they give mandatory four-week annual leave, guaranteed wages to wait staff and free universal health care?
We all look third-world from Norway's point of view. Should they in turn refuse our produce?
In my local UK supermarket, I can buy Shepparton pears and South Australian wine. If UK consumers refuse these, (and prefer "local" EU produce) rural Victoria and South Australia will suffer as the UK market is bigger than their domestic market. You can blame "executives" all you like but *we* (in general, maybe not *you* specifically) are the ones making the choice
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
People need to make the choices, I don't disagree, but when there isn't a choice to make because other "choices" have been put out of business, that doesn't help the consumer - it only helps monopoly businesses.
Don't count on being able to buy Shepparton pears in the future either, if that is a benchmark, they could well be put out of business by cheap imports - which then suddenly become more expensive once Shepparton is out of the picture. No doubt you will have the same opportunity to choose the expensive cheap import there in the U.K.
Bren, the UK market is certainly bigger than the Australian market, but the Asian markets, and the US, for Australian produce is far bigger than the UK. Australian economic focus has not been on the UK for decades now.
"The USA has many working conditions that are outlawed in Australia - would you refuse products from there until they give mandatory four-week annual leave, guaranteed wages to wait staff and free universal health care?"
Of course not - but do you like buying goods from places where people work for poverty-level wages? I don't.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
"is this thing on ?" AVERY significant number of us here in the USA work for what (comparatively speaking) the EU and the rest of the "modern world" would consider "poverty-level". it's been that way for a long time here. if you're not in debt up to tour ears, it's only because you don't have sh@%t!!!
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: The Crash
Yeah, pipe, I've heard that. I've always thought it is pretty tough there.
Anyway, there's not much from the US for sale here, it'd be too expensive for people I'd say, and like Bren says, people may well choose an alternative because it is a bit cheaper, made possible by even lower *poverty-level wages" in other countries than in your neck of the woods.
Maybe things will change in that regard though, especially if the NYSE goes into a tailspin. We've got a live telecast of the NYSE opening bell coming up today. Someone must be very concerned!
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
we all should be...
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: The Crash
Why do you say debt is such a big problem there, pipe? Do you mean that wages are so low that people can't make ends meet for basic needs?
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
yes. that and the cost of basic needs has risen exorbitantly. Decent health care, child care, decent food, transportation, housing costs have become more luxuries than neccessities. Then along comes the friendly Wal-Monster saying " We know you're poor, that's why we've sent all your jobs and tax money to countries where labor is even cheaper than it is here- So We Could Save You Money!!!"
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: The Crash
Yes, it's bullsh*te isn't it. They're actually spinning it that exporting your jobs is good for you. Then they obliterate the local competition so you have no choice but to buy what they offer at the price they offer it - or you go without. Then you end up with less money so that even if you wanted to make another choice, you can't afford to! None of this happens by chance, it is by very deliberate design. Some will tell you that it is your fault. I don't buy that.
What would happen to the Wal-Monster if no one bought their expensive *cheap* imports? (If there was a choice!)
Where goes the U.S., so go we all, is what I always think, so if this sort of thing hasn't happened to *you* yet, it could be coming to a country near you! They're working on it!
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
"Send lawyers, guns and money!"
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: The Crash
Wal-Monster ?
"Wal-Mart has received at least $1bn of public money. Over 90% of its distribution centres and many of its retail outlets have been subsidised by county and local governments. They give the chain free land, they pay for the roads, water and sewerage required to make that land usable, and they grant it property tax breaks and subsidies (called tax increment financing) originally intended to regenerate depressed communities. Sometimes state governments give the firm straight cash as well: in Virginia, for example, Wal-Mart’s distribution centres receive handouts from the Governor’s Opportunity Fund."
http://tinyurl.com/4z8tge
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
Tent cities in the USA
http://tinyurl.com/4zuq6t
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
"millions more Americans, and hundreds of thousands more Britons, will lose their jobs"
http://tinyurl.com/3nvaz4
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
what's $700 billion(bailout figure) divided by 330 million (US population)?? Talk about an economic stimulus check!!
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: The Crash
The bail out is "nevertheless the wrong thing to do"
http://tinyurl.com/4busxg
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
Emigrate before it's too late!!!
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
As a baby boomer, I remember quite a few of my contemporaries in the late 60s-early 70s were raring for the world system to collapse round the ears of the bourgeois / war pigs / running dogs / the Establishment and its lackeys in general. They themselves, of course, would dodge nimbly through the wreckage, be heroes, and survive. It is very natural to assume this when one's young.
I wonder what they're thinking forty-odd years on, now this scenario seems quite likely to happen for real. Wonder? I assume some of them are bloody terrified.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by nicholas
Re: The Crash
I'm sooo glad I live in a country that is not run by old/new world classicist, laissez-faire-economics politicians.
Thanks to regulation of the banking system here by successive governments since the early 1990s, while a couple of banks might take a profit dive, none are apparently in any danger whatsoever of failing, even totally without any government support.
No place like home.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
No elective wars too. No empire.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
the original Utopia
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
I'm playing in a pub tonight, I think I'll play something topical.
Start with The Bank of Ireland followed by
Sixpenny Money,
The Tenpenny Bit,
The Luck Penny,
The Banks, and finish off with The Hag with the Money,
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Free Reed
Re: The Crash
PHEW!!!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4AvbYUu1Mg
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
Australia doesn't seem to have the concentration of right-wingers -- or people who think they benifit somehow from voting to the right -- that America has, so abundantly.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
Looks like Joe Sixpack is gonna get nailed whichever way it goes.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
Quigs, there is a concentration of right-wingers, but of those, I think there is only a small proportion who are as right as right-wingers there, so they just don't have the numbers. The political culture has formed differently here too, from the U.S. in a number of ways, imo, which makes for these different perspectives.
I have a pet theory too that the greater the population of a place, the less empowered people are vis-a-vis 'the establishment'. Australia I don't think has crossed that threshold yet, so *ordinary* people can still aspire and reach positions of political influence - enough of them to constitute the majority anyway. So far.
It all seems so normal here to be like that, until you see this sort of thing unfolding around the world and realise that it is something a bit special here.
I really would like to know how politicians in some of these *leading* countries reconcile their view of their own absolute belief in the correctness of their actions and primacy in world standing, with getting it so wrong. It must cause them some confusion.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
Couldn't Australia have an outreach program? We'll give you our un-reconstructed Confederacy for your western browns.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
An outreach program! Nah, we're after all the help we can get.
Un-reconstructed?! Don't politicians from the confederacy run your government there?
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
Yep! Their great -grand-dads had to relinquish the slaves -- they, and their decendants, worked out a similar relationship for the next 100 years. Yah, but for the slavery thing, they won their war; and we're all happy for 'em.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
So you're not keen on Wall Street then?
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
HEY, they pulled the video ! !!! What the guy says...the bailout bill applies worldwide, so any dodgy bank garbage from anywhere
will be bought by the US treasury and US taxpayers will have to pay for it...so that if there's a failed venture in Shang Hai or
Brisbane or in UK or anywhere else, the paperwork passes from the banks to the US treasury in return for dollars from the
US treasury. Someone asked for an additional clause limiting it to US assets, and Bush/Paulson vetoed it...it's clear what this
bill is about, it's looting the US of a quarter of its wealth, moving it overseas, via the banking system...sorry this is poor it's from
hearing the video once before it vanished..It's the biggest bank robbery in history, by an order of magnitude !
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
"It must cause them some confusion." Not a bit. They aren't bothered in the least. No self-doubt there, nor sense that some introspection might be called for.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
If they pulled the video, wolf, maybe that means the guy was just making it all up.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
Ockham's razor, wolf, Ockham's razor
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2008/10/rep-brad-sherman-on-bailing-out-foreign.html
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqIFoBXGizc
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
"Ockham's razor, wolf, Ockham's razor"
I nicked myself tryin to shave with that damned thing.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Bob himself
Re: The Crash
It's your money and standard of living Bob...hey, I thought his name was Occam ? and that his principle had been superceded in modern science ?
http://www.urbansurvival.com/week.htm
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
The razor still cuts--the principle holds up well in modern science. It's basically just the idea that we shouldn't add bits that aren't necessary to explain something.
Like broadening the bail out to cover the planet just to show that it's a bad idea. It's already a bad idea even if applied to just the US.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Crash
Sure, Will. It sounds good, philosophically, but a smart scientist I read, said in practice these days, it's not a useful guide anymore, because so often explanations turn out to be very complex, weird and counterintuitive...
Hey that last link I posted suggests keeping cash on hand, enough to live for a while without a bankcard. If banks start falling fast, they may just refuse to pay out, like they did in Argentina.
What the effects of the bailout will be upon the price of oil...guess !
http://tinyurl.com/3l4sr6
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
It doesn't matter how complex or counterintuitive an explanation is--the razor still applies. Unnecessary bits are still unnecessary.
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The Crash
free reed when you go to the pub tonight ask the hag with the money if she has a boyfriend if not post her phone number i dont care how ugly she is as long as she is loaded ,my cookie jar is empty due to the crash im on the bones of me ar*e,skint and on the verge of hari kari
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by myparasgon
Re: The Crash
http://www.outlawjournalism.com/news/?p=6601
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
And here I was thinking you were a classicist, wolf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor
"Occam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham."
# Posted on October 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
If you want to stop insitutions from stuffing up your economy, this is what you do:
http://www.apra.gov.au/
Politicians in "leading" countries will no doubt discover this at some point.
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
You guys don't have any of this red-state-vs-blue-state crap -- or-red-county-vs-blue-county crap. You have a popular vote; none of this electoral vote nonsense. Campaigning is conducted quickly there, and with a lot less expense. You don't have demagogues whipping up "culture wars." Oh yah, you haven't got an empire.
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
Yes, it's very much a no-bullsh*t system, Quigs.
Empires tend to come back and bite you on the bum in my observation. Anyway, Australia wouldn't need an empire, it's got everything here already.
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
The Roman empire was never defeated. It collapsed because of its size.
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by kuec
Re: The Crash
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
BBC's man in Sydney seems to agree with you DD:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/nickbryant/
He even quotes that old ceili (Minogue) tune: Lucky, Lucky, Lucky
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
You nice americans might be wise to keep some cash in the house. When the banks stop paying out, they don't give any warning. Remember what happened in Argentina ? They just locked the doors.
http://halturnershow.blogspot.com/
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
You might be right. Such things could come to pass here. One anticipates a different sort of October surprise, though. McCain can't very well get elected in the face of a liquidity crisis. It would be a long time before a Republican could hope to run for any office, if they give us another 1929. What they might give us, instead, is another war.
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
But then again, that bunch could give us both of those things; and with the complete aquiescence of the Democrats, bless 'em.
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
ACQUIESCENCE
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The Crash
Seems that Turner is a neo-Nazi crazy guy. Doesn't mean he's wrong, but doesn't add any confidence that he's right.
Trouble is, you can't believe *anybody* now. Remember when the pound came out of the euro currency chain ? John Major and Norman Lamont kept saying "Don't worry, everything's fine" while they threw £12 billion pounds down the drain and made George Soros very rich.
Great little video here explaining how money works and how the bankers now own and control America.
http://tinyurl.com/27jppm
# Posted on October 2nd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
Bren, No amount of resources-based luck would have stopped the same bank meltdown happening in Australia as is happening elsewhere. Banks are regulated here, more so since the late 90s with APRA.
When other countries now putting their citizens through this pain realise that that is what is necessary, you will cease going through these traumas.
Why, when a police officer can book a citizen for a traffic infringement, that is accepted and expected, but if there is a similar "policing" agency for banks and financial sector, that is somehow regarded as "socialism"? Why is it ok for some sectors of society to do whatever they like, but others can't.
Yes, it's a very nice place to be here when the rest of the unregulated world goes into freefall. From here it is like looking at a really big storm in a gold-fish bowl.
# Posted on October 3rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
Let's hope it doesn't get down to The Luck Penny in some of those places over there.
# Posted on October 3rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
Don't worry! Sarah Palin will answer all your questions about the economy tonight!!
# Posted on October 3rd 2008 by gw
Re: The Crash
Foreclosures and trashouts in S. California..
http://tinyurl.com/545fdf
# Posted on October 3rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
"Foreclosures and trashouts in S. California..."
For years my wife have wondered aloud (somewhat rhetorically, of course) about how people were doing it--all the stuff, the giant SUVs and the McMansions... We live in an old funky, but comfortable house in what used to be a semi-rural, middle class Northern California neighborhood. Over the past 10 years the open space around us has more or less totally been filled in with 3-5000 square foot homes. For about a year and a half the newer ones haven't been selling and there have been several foreclosures on ones that were bought when the prices were astronomical. "How were they doing it?" Obviously, they weren't. It's all pretty much a facade of the faux rich covering over a mountain of debt. FTR, at their peak "value," these houses were going for $1,000,000+. Several of the bigger ones were priced at $1.2 million. The people who bought in at those prices are taking a BIG hit... Not seeing many Hummers on the road these days, are we?
# Posted on October 3rd 2008 by gw
Re: The Crash
You only see hummers at sessions nowadays.
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: The Crash
Ha, it seems mortgage foreclosures are actually ILLEGAL, there was a test case....
http://tinyurl.com/52bx34
# Posted on October 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
We don't need another war. I work as a medical clerk at a veteran's hospital and we are already having a difficult enough time just dealing with all of the veterans who come here for treatment or medicines or other assistance. Yes, we are already serving veterans who have been in Afghanistan and Iraq. The clerk who works in the Emergency Room on the day shift was stationed in Iraq when she had to be medically discharged from the Air Force which meant that the Veteran's Administration had to find her a job somewhere so they assigned her to work in the ER.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: The Crash
I'm not watching 123 minutes of that, wolfie! What does it say?
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: The Crash
It'd take me more than 123 minutes to explain, ben
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
Ah!
Oh well, I'll just stay ignorant, then.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: The Crash
I think it's mostly an effort to educate our American friends, Ben, who've just had their republic stolen from them by the bankers.
As you know, we've always been subjects of the monarch, so we never had a free republic to be stolen from us.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: The Crash
Presumably the indefatigability of your American friends in need of education exceeds that of ben (or myself)
I'm already reading of pubs and restaurants tightening their belts due to economic situation, or fear of same.
I wonder if this will have a positive or negative effect on the humble pub session?
I know that this is where we came in, but there must be +some+ positive effect, surely?
Apart from the vindication of those who would love to see everyone forced to live a more frugal life, I mean
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
Bloody hell, Bren! Eight syllables?! On a Sunday?!!!!?!?
And no, there's nothing positive. We're all DOOMED. D'ye hear me? DOOMED!
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: The Crash
... in fact, polysyllabification. So there!
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: The Crash
It was a salute to the former member for Glasgow Hillhead, ben, and his contribution to the lexicon
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by Bren
Re: The Crash
Presumably that would be our mate George (yes, just put the brown paper parcel over there, that'll be fine) rather than Woy of the Wovers.
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: The Crash
"Say, were any of you boys Irish trad musicians, or if not Irish trad
musicians per se, were you otherwise trained in the musical arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wandering ?-------------Oh brother where art thou
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by hauke