Okay, you've convinced me that trying to tune my piano myself is a bad idea. So can I take the thick shiny lacquer off a 1940s fiddle that sounds bad and see if a different type of finish will help?
It would almost certainly sound better without that crap on it and a coat of good varnish. If it's worth much of anything, though, I would have it done by a pro. Violin varnishing is a black art. You can't use the kind of stuff you put on furniture.
thanks for the marklar - I don't think I want to invest much marklar in this marklar because it's not worth a marklar, but maybe he'd let me pick his marklar?
Well, if it isn't worth much of anything you could sand all that stuff off and see how it sounds. Some people like the sound of an unvarnished fiddle. But you can get problems with mold, rot, etc. without varnish.
Airport, Is there something in your sub-conscious that's driving you to total musical instruments? If it's shear destructive madness masking itself as curiosity, and needs an outlet NOW, then find a piper in your locale, take their chanter by force or guile, and proceed to widen the bore with a red-hot poker. Tell'em; "It's for science."
Now, now Quigley, making an instrument unpretty or slightly atonal isn't exactly the same as destroying it! I once walked into an Appleby's that had instruments decorating the walls - when I looked closer I saw they'd been affixed there using sheetrock screws.
That's exactly what I want to do Sir M. - sand it off and then maybe even try my hand at the black art of varnishing (I promise I won't use furniture products)
Thanks for that too - very interesting. Sounds like if I take the varnish off and it doesn't improve, I should probably just take it up to Appleby's instead of trying to varnish it!
You could pour gasoline over it, and light off the gasoline. Someone once suggested that as a way to clean accordions, maybe it would work on a fiddle, too!
I wonder...if you use a Guinness-based varnish, will spilling beer on it help improve the tone? Airport, you seem to be just the mad scientist to find out for us.
I now own my wife's grandfather's fiddle, and when he she was about 11 or so, and he had passed away, she thought it would be pretty with a heavy shellacking.
35 years later, after getting obnoxiously high bids, I spent two weekends with steel wool and got most of it off. It looks way better and sounds better. It's an old Hopf, so it's a noisy one, but it's great for OT.
I have taken varnish off a couple of fiddles. I dont know if my technique is the best but heres it is.
First I used a cabinet scrape to take off the most of it.
Then i used loads of sandpaper and wire wool (for the awkward bits)
To revarnish I use a couple of coats of french polish. It gives a nice finish.
There are good arguments as to why a fiddle has a heavy varnish on it; without the varnish dulling the tone a fiddle has a very harsh treble - the skill of the luthier lies in giving just the right amount of varnish to take off the top harmonics and leave an instrument that is both brilliant and mellow.
Leaving aside all other variables ( and these are many ) an over-varnished fiddle will be dull, an unvarnished fiddle too harsh.
"Leaving aside all other variables ( and these are many )..."
Yes - There many factors that affect the tone of an instrument. Have you tried any of the obvious things, like moving the bridge and/or soundpost? Checking for unglued seams? Stripping and re-varnishing seems like a drastic measure, but if you've tried everything else to no avail, then you've nothing to lose.
Thanks again all of you - I've taken it to a luthier who tried a few things and finally said that he didn't like the sound of that fiddle. I'm going to try solvents first, because I like their smell and it's an election year. I'll let you know how it goes...
Unless you've got a crappy fiddle, removing varnish is the worst way to improve the sound. The arching, the gradations, the setup, the string choice the peg materials all contribute to the sound. Removing varnish on a good fiddle is to throw away 75% of its resale value. Some fiddles will never sound good, some cheap ones can sound great.
Try other methods first. I even know a fiddler who thinks the thick build up of rosin on his fiddle makes it sound good, (I suggested cotton stuffed into the sound holes).
First rule of fiddle ownership. If it is broken, don't fix it yourself (unless trained)
get de-varnish off...
get de-varnish off...
Okay, you've convinced me that trying to tune my piano myself is a bad idea. So can I take the thick shiny lacquer off a 1940s fiddle that sounds bad and see if a different type of finish will help?
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by airport
Re: get de-varnish off...
Finish? SHINY LACQUER? Poor fiddle.
It would almost certainly sound better without that crap on it and a coat of good varnish. If it's worth much of anything, though, I would have it done by a pro. Violin varnishing is a black art. You can't use the kind of stuff you put on furniture.
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Marklar
Re: get de-varnish off...
By the way, I had some varnish work done by Brian Epp and he's a genius with varnish. He's not cheap but his prices are fair.
Here's his site:
http://www.artisanviolin.com/
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Marklar
Re: get de-varnish off...
thanks for the marklar - I don't think I want to invest much marklar in this marklar because it's not worth a marklar, but maybe he'd let me pick his marklar?
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by airport
Re: get de-varnish off...
Well, if it isn't worth much of anything you could sand all that stuff off and see how it sounds. Some people like the sound of an unvarnished fiddle. But you can get problems with mold, rot, etc. without varnish.
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Marklar
Re: get de-varnish off...
Airport, Is there something in your sub-conscious that's driving you to total musical instruments? If it's shear destructive madness masking itself as curiosity, and needs an outlet NOW, then find a piper in your locale, take their chanter by force or guile, and proceed to widen the bore with a red-hot poker. Tell'em; "It's for science."
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: get de-varnish off...
Now, now Quigley, making an instrument unpretty or slightly atonal isn't exactly the same as destroying it! I once walked into an Appleby's that had instruments decorating the walls - when I looked closer I saw they'd been affixed there using sheetrock screws.
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by airport
Re: get de-varnish off...
That's exactly what I want to do Sir M. - sand it off and then maybe even try my hand at the black art of varnishing (I promise I won't use furniture products)
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by airport
Re: get de-varnish off...
Here's some info on making a simple violin varnish:
http://www.instrumentmaking.keithhillharpsichords.com/hillviolinvarnish.html
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Marklar
Re: get de-varnish off...
Thanks for that too - very interesting. Sounds like if I take the varnish off and it doesn't improve, I should probably just take it up to Appleby's instead of trying to varnish it!
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by airport
Re: get de-varnish off...
You could pour gasoline over it, and light off the gasoline. Someone once suggested that as a way to clean accordions, maybe it would work on a fiddle, too!
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: get de-varnish off...
Don't do that! That's a waste of valuable gasoline.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by Marklar
Re: get de-varnish off...
It's reputed to work with bodhrans, and certainly will with banjos - as one Member here will confirm if he reads this.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: get de-varnish off...
I'm using alcohol - and not the kind I usually spill on it either
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by airport
Re: get de-varnish off...
I wonder...if you use a Guinness-based varnish, will spilling beer on it help improve the tone? Airport, you seem to be just the mad scientist to find out for us.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by Marklar
Re: get de-varnish off...
Airport,
I now own my wife's grandfather's fiddle, and when he she was about 11 or so, and he had passed away, she thought it would be pretty with a heavy shellacking.
35 years later, after getting obnoxiously high bids, I spent two weekends with steel wool and got most of it off. It looks way better and sounds better. It's an old Hopf, so it's a noisy one, but it's great for OT.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by nofrets
Re: get de-varnish off...
Oh I thought this was a tune thread:
Jack Broke Da Prison Door,
Da New Rigged Ship
Get De Varnish Off
...
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by Mike Floorstand
Re: get de-varnish off...
I have taken varnish off a couple of fiddles. I dont know if my technique is the best but heres it is.
First I used a cabinet scrape to take off the most of it.
Then i used loads of sandpaper and wire wool (for the awkward bits)
To revarnish I use a couple of coats of french polish. It gives a nice finish.
Good luck anyway.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by session savage
Re: get de-varnish off...
There are good arguments as to why a fiddle has a heavy varnish on it; without the varnish dulling the tone a fiddle has a very harsh treble - the skill of the luthier lies in giving just the right amount of varnish to take off the top harmonics and leave an instrument that is both brilliant and mellow.
Leaving aside all other variables ( and these are many ) an over-varnished fiddle will be dull, an unvarnished fiddle too harsh.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: get de-varnish off...
"Leaving aside all other variables ( and these are many )..."
Yes - There many factors that affect the tone of an instrument. Have you tried any of the obvious things, like moving the bridge and/or soundpost? Checking for unglued seams? Stripping and re-varnishing seems like a drastic measure, but if you've tried everything else to no avail, then you've nothing to lose.
Good Luck.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by ragaman
Re: get de-varnish off...
Thanks again all of you - I've taken it to a luthier who tried a few things and finally said that he didn't like the sound of that fiddle. I'm going to try solvents first, because I like their smell and it's an election year. I'll let you know how it goes...
# Posted on September 27th 2008 by airport
Re: get de-varnish off...
Unless you've got a crappy fiddle, removing varnish is the worst way to improve the sound. The arching, the gradations, the setup, the string choice the peg materials all contribute to the sound. Removing varnish on a good fiddle is to throw away 75% of its resale value. Some fiddles will never sound good, some cheap ones can sound great.
Try other methods first. I even know a fiddler who thinks the thick build up of rosin on his fiddle makes it sound good, (I suggested cotton stuffed into the sound holes).
First rule of fiddle ownership. If it is broken, don't fix it yourself (unless trained)
# Posted on October 5th 2008 by Fiddleshed