The Session >> Discussions >> Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
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Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
I was thinking about doing this post for a while now and the post today on "technique" got me motivated. My question is simply this, how do we define fiddle sound vs violin sound and what technique [if indeed any] can we use to get there. I've heard one interesting theory floated [which tends to support Illig's suggestions and fly in the face of more formal training advice] that in fact a stiff wrist and forearm [try it, it works] are what tends to give fiddling its sound [be it Irish, Cape Breton or whatever...maybe excluded Bluegrass here]. And glancing over a bunch of YOUTUBE vids of the older players might support that view -- although I suppose there are some glaring exceptions....[Martin Hayes?]
So, most of us here know what a "fiddle" sound is (intuitively), but how to we describe it vs. that of a "violin" sound...-- is it less liquid? less big? less wide vibrato? or what? -- & what makes it interesting and/or different from that classical sound?
But more importantly what lack of technique could help us get there?
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
PK
yeah, i'm really not being facetious here...I really DO think lack of technique could be a bit plus in not developing a nice sound, but possibly developing an *interesting* one!
Who says Irish music has to sound nice? or even should?
isn't classical technique all geared to that end? to playing correctly, in unison and mostly in orchestral settings where that kind of regimentation [i guess] is important and necessary, etc etc?
but tradtional music is an entirely diff kettle of fish. so why impose "classical" standards/expectations on it?
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
mtodd -- You can play with good technique and still have a "fiddle" type of sound. Good technique just means that you can efficiently and reliably do what you want to do with the instrument. What you actually decide you want to do -- how sweet versus crunchy you want to sound, etc -- is up to you.
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
i agree with crazy fingers. take the loose wrist for example, frankie gavin has a loose wrist but he has a different way of using this compared to martin hayes. short rythmical bowing versus long smooth bowing. technique is only a bases for allowing people to express themselves. having the best technique doesn't automatically make you a great player, it is, as cf said, how you put this to use.
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Classical violin places a heavy emphasis on tone and smoothness. Fiddling is all about rhythm. But there's no clear line. A fiddle is a violin and a fiddler is a violinist.
If people can dance to your playing, you're fiddling. I don't think you can get more specific than that, because there is a huge variety in the "fiddle" sound. Fiddling doesn't require less technique, it requires different technique.
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Nicely said, Sir Marklar- indeed, it is quite a buzz when my wife comes in dancing to my scraping- I feel then that all is not lost, and that there is hope.
Fiddling also seems to me to be about knowing (and trying to play) the tunes from the inside, so out to speak- from memory and with heart, however nebulous that may sound.
I have the misfortune to play with a couple of very good classical violinists, who tend to play this music as just another version of what they play elsewhere, and who seem unwilling to spend time listening, interiorising and assimilating the idiom.
To these particular individuals, good technique (and the availability of the *correct* dots) seem, sadly, to be the main criteria. [Rant over!]
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
"Stick it under your chin and scrape away" is how I learned. In retrospect, I think some guidance would’ve been helpful in the early days, but I still think the most important thing is to “scrape away.” The other most important thing is to listen and watch accomplished players.
There’s not a lot of teachable technique involved. You can spend your life in first position, there’s a small toolkit of characteristic twiddle diddles and, beyond that, if you really love the instrument you won’t be able to resist “scraping away.”
I suspect the main difference between a fiddle sound and a violin sound comes from that attitude of “give me a few hints and let me scrape away.”
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Best answer I can think of is ... Listen, you'll hear the difference.
Really I can't think of adequate words to fully describe the differences. It's all about the sound. Word descriptions fail.
To me it's like trying to describe the difference between the colors brown and green without showing someone brown and green. The adjectives are subjective without demonstration. Keen, wirey, mellow, supple ... those words will bring different images to mind to different people. Futile exercise. :D
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
I think you know the difference when you hear it - I can't fnd the words to describe it. Another thing is to listen to a violinist playing a folk tune, and it won't sound like a fiddler. Then you'll know the difference Like at this year's Last Night of the Proms there was a folk set, and it sounded like it was being played by violinists not fiddlers.
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
I think that fiddles (and other forms of trad instruments which have non trad counterparts, such as flute) are all about rhythm and lift, whereas violin (and classical flute) is more about tone and colour.
Of cours, both need both, but don't have the same priorities.
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
It helps to have an element of unpredictability in the sound. I was
listening to a scottish-style fiddler recently - and I'm not tarring them all
with the same brush. It sounded boring partly because every beat
started with a bow stroke and the tone quality was perfect.
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Just to be fair, I find some of John Carty's recordings to be boring too:
for example Barge Inn on 'That's all it is' - can't stand it - sounds like
a mechanical clock or something
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
I think it also has a lot to do with the quality of the instrument itself. Most top diddley fiddle players play instruments that would would never be passable even in a provincial orchestra.
A top quality instrument is just another one of those unnecessary things to add to the list. Along with good technique and practising
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l-JAP7Kf1cI
This famous John Shehan/Andre Rieu video of the Irish Washerwoman illustrates perfectly the different approaches taken by someone who has spent his life playing Irish music in one of the Tradition's great bands, and a classical violinist who specialises in the more popular end of the market and “had a go” at playing the Washerwoman on TV (with lamentable, although hilarious, results, if I may say so).
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Ilig
good point. Hadn't thought of that.
I read in the liner note to The Raineys cd about the condition of one of the brother's fiddles...it apparently had a hole in it. or maybe two holes, can't remember.
[If you look closely at the pic on the album sleeve the state of one of their bows is rather amazing to say the least, as well as there being virtually no hair on the bow.]
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
How do we know that fiddle and bow weren't specially selected for the photo shoot, and the instruments used for the recording were - shall we say - a little different?
I may have a devious mind, but a CD by a well-known traditional fiddler mentions in the sleeve notes that the fiddle used in the recording was kindly provided by N___, and that the viola used by another musician was also kindly provided by someone else.
Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
I was thinking about doing this post for a while now and the post today on "technique" got me motivated. My question is simply this, how do we define fiddle sound vs violin sound and what technique [if indeed any] can we use to get there. I've heard one interesting theory floated [which tends to support Illig's suggestions and fly in the face of more formal training advice] that in fact a stiff wrist and forearm [try it, it works] are what tends to give fiddling its sound [be it Irish, Cape Breton or whatever...maybe excluded Bluegrass here]. And glancing over a bunch of YOUTUBE vids of the older players might support that view -- although I suppose there are some glaring exceptions....[Martin Hayes?]
So, most of us here know what a "fiddle" sound is (intuitively), but how to we describe it vs. that of a "violin" sound...-- is it less liquid? less big? less wide vibrato? or what? -- & what makes it interesting and/or different from that classical sound?
But more importantly what lack of technique could help us get there?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Great question, mtodd. As one who has lack of technique in abundance, I look forward to learning how to put it to best use
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by P-K
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
PK
yeah, i'm really not being facetious here...I really DO think lack of technique could be a bit plus in not developing a nice sound, but possibly developing an *interesting* one!
Who says Irish music has to sound nice? or even should?
isn't classical technique all geared to that end? to playing correctly, in unison and mostly in orchestral settings where that kind of regimentation [i guess] is important and necessary, etc etc?
but tradtional music is an entirely diff kettle of fish. so why impose "classical" standards/expectations on it?
i see no value in that.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
sorry, should read "big plus"
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
mtodd -- You can play with good technique and still have a "fiddle" type of sound. Good technique just means that you can efficiently and reliably do what you want to do with the instrument. What you actually decide you want to do -- how sweet versus crunchy you want to sound, etc -- is up to you.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
i agree with crazy fingers. take the loose wrist for example, frankie gavin has a loose wrist but he has a different way of using this compared to martin hayes. short rythmical bowing versus long smooth bowing. technique is only a bases for allowing people to express themselves. having the best technique doesn't automatically make you a great player, it is, as cf said, how you put this to use.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
"Stick it under your chin and scrape away", I believe is the expert advice.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by yhaalhouse
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Classical violin places a heavy emphasis on tone and smoothness. Fiddling is all about rhythm. But there's no clear line. A fiddle is a violin and a fiddler is a violinist.
If people can dance to your playing, you're fiddling. I don't think you can get more specific than that, because there is a huge variety in the "fiddle" sound. Fiddling doesn't require less technique, it requires different technique.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Nicely said, Sir Marklar- indeed, it is quite a buzz when my wife comes in dancing to my scraping- I feel then that all is not lost, and that there is hope.
Fiddling also seems to me to be about knowing (and trying to play) the tunes from the inside, so out to speak- from memory and with heart, however nebulous that may sound.
I have the misfortune to play with a couple of very good classical violinists, who tend to play this music as just another version of what they play elsewhere, and who seem unwilling to spend time listening, interiorising and assimilating the idiom.
To these particular individuals, good technique (and the availability of the *correct* dots) seem, sadly, to be the main criteria. [Rant over!]
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by P-K
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
- from the inside out, so to speak...
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by P-K
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
I think you shouldn't necessarily believe it, when a good fiddler tells you, "Aw shucks, I just stick it under my chin and scrape away."
I don't think it's possible to sound like, say, Brendan Mulvihill without developing a whole bunch of technique:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSO_47oyMp4
Note the clear, ringing tone--and the rock-solid rhythm. Those things don't just happen by random chance.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by mickray
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Fiddle - keen and wiry.
Violin - mellow and supple.
At any rate, that's how I'd summarise the difference, a lot of the time.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
"Stick it under your chin and scrape away" is how I learned. In retrospect, I think some guidance would’ve been helpful in the early days, but I still think the most important thing is to “scrape away.” The other most important thing is to listen and watch accomplished players.
There’s not a lot of teachable technique involved. You can spend your life in first position, there’s a small toolkit of characteristic twiddle diddles and, beyond that, if you really love the instrument you won’t be able to resist “scraping away.”
I suspect the main difference between a fiddle sound and a violin sound comes from that attitude of “give me a few hints and let me scrape away.”
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
I think double stops and shuffling are fiddle characteristics. Plus being more relaxed.
Violinists are focused on playing perfect notes exactly as they are writen on the page. Double stops and shuffling are frowned upon.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Lisa01032
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Double stops frowned upon? I don't think so.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Brilliant set by Brendon there. thanks for the link.
masterful.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
There's lots of double-stopping in classical violin playing. Lots.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Best answer I can think of is ... Listen, you'll hear the difference.
Really I can't think of adequate words to fully describe the differences. It's all about the sound. Word descriptions fail.
To me it's like trying to describe the difference between the colors brown and green without showing someone brown and green. The adjectives are subjective without demonstration. Keen, wirey, mellow, supple ... those words will bring different images to mind to different people. Futile exercise. :D
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by RogueFiddler
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
I think you know the difference when you hear it - I can't fnd the words to describe it. Another thing is to listen to a violinist playing a folk tune, and it won't sound like a fiddler. Then you'll know the difference
Like at this year's Last Night of the Proms there was a folk set, and it sounded like it was being played by violinists not fiddlers.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by snowyowl
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
I think that fiddles (and other forms of trad instruments which have non trad counterparts, such as flute) are all about rhythm and lift, whereas violin (and classical flute) is more about tone and colour.
Of cours, both need both, but don't have the same priorities.
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Tirno
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
It helps to have an element of unpredictability in the sound. I was
listening to a scottish-style fiddler recently - and I'm not tarring them all
with the same brush. It sounded boring partly because every beat
started with a bow stroke and the tone quality was perfect.
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Hup
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Just to be fair, I find some of John Carty's recordings to be boring too:
for example Barge Inn on 'That's all it is' - can't stand it - sounds like
a mechanical clock or something
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Hup
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Probably the biggest difference is that in classical, you usually smoothly fade into the notes, whereas in fiddling, the notes start off with a bang.
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Whiddler - that generalization does not hold up for either type of music
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Hup
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
I think it also has a lot to do with the quality of the instrument itself. Most top diddley fiddle players play instruments that would would never be passable even in a provincial orchestra.
A top quality instrument is just another one of those unnecessary things to add to the list. Along with good technique and practising
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l-JAP7Kf1cI
This famous John Shehan/Andre Rieu video of the Irish Washerwoman illustrates perfectly the different approaches taken by someone who has spent his life playing Irish music in one of the Tradition's great bands, and a classical violinist who specialises in the more popular end of the market and “had a go” at playing the Washerwoman on TV (with lamentable, although hilarious, results, if I may say so).
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
Ilig
good point. Hadn't thought of that.
I read in the liner note to The Raineys cd about the condition of one of the brother's fiddles...it apparently had a hole in it. or maybe two holes, can't remember.
[If you look closely at the pic on the album sleeve the state of one of their bows is rather amazing to say the least, as well as there being virtually no hair on the bow.]
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Getting a fiddle sound vs. 'violin' sound [or any sound at all]
How do we know that fiddle and bow weren't specially selected for the photo shoot, and the instruments used for the recording were - shall we say - a little different?
I may have a devious mind, but a CD by a well-known traditional fiddler mentions in the sleeve notes that the fiddle used in the recording was kindly provided by N___, and that the viola used by another musician was also kindly provided by someone else.
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by lazyhound