I have been watching carefully now and it seems that no one plays above first position. Is there a rule about only playing in first position at a session?? Is there some Irish tunes that really explore the dusty end of the neck??? Is there a few tunes that are great for first position and beyond. ( maybe on the tune file here? )I am on the bouzouki ( melody only )and have a long neck to explore.........................or should I stay in first position???????????
On my last posting about The Mason's Apron I mentioned Sean McGuire's many variations which go right up the neck. They would sound good on bouzouki. I use third position on the fiddle quite a lot if it makes the fingering easier. A few G minor tunes benefit from this. If you really want virtuoso stuff then get Scott Skinner's complete works for the fiddle. He uses some difficult keys (Eb should not exist), for many trad. players, and NEVER resists the temptation to journey up the neck. No dust there.
There's a handful of tunes in O'Neill that go above the B on the E string, and I think you'll find some on this database. I suspect some of these tunes may have originated on pipes of one sort or other.
These high positions are not uncommon in Welsh hornpipes, which were originally written mostly for the harp, although one or two were evidently written by or for fiddlers who wanted to show off their technique.
A tip to track down these tunes if you're that interested. Download a large number of tunes in abc format as a single file into your word processor (e.g. Henrik Norbeck's collection). Then do a "find" search for c', d', e' and so on - notes above b. You'll then find the tunes with the high positions.
How these high notes are played is largely up to the individual, and suggestions abound in a recent thread on the "high c" - http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/1883, and the ability to play them is never useless.
I think we've come a long way from one or two of those old so-called traditions which seemed to restrict the available techniques. About a year ago someone actually said to me in a session that I should never move out of the first position - "it wasn't traditional". I chose to ignore that advice; the person giving it wasn't even a fiddle player!
Many of the younger generation of itm fiddle players now have a background of classical training, and I can see no good reason why some of this cannot be used WHERE APPROPRIATE in itm. For instance, in a fast passage, if it helps to keep up to speed by moving briefly up into the 3rd or 4th position on the A string instead of moving to and fro between the A and E strings, then do so. But always think about it first; perhaps in such a passage there may be a need to have the brightness of notes played on the E string, so you wouldn't then necessarily use the higher positions on the A string.
Trevor
Yeah agree Trevor, and conversely on some songs, slow airs, harmonies etc in particular you want to lose some of that brightness on the E so essential for reels, jigs, strathspeys and marches etc that you'll shift to 2nd, 3rd or 4th positions purely to extract the maximum mellow mood your instrument is capable of producing on the lower strings - the resulting slides sometimes producing heart-wrenching sounds (provided they're not overdone - are you out there Aly Bain?
Similar arguments common in my neck of the woods re use/ overuse of Vibrato.
Erin, you'll note that while it's rare to go above a B (on the E string), it's also relatively rare to play anything on the G string. That's because the range of the tunes is usually constrained by the range of the whistle, the flute, and the pipes, which can go from a D up to that B. We stringy people (it's a mandolin over here) can go up much farther and down a little lower than that range. Of course moving out of first position can give you some interesting effects as the other chaps describe.
All the more remarkable to consider that, by and large, The Music does its thing in less than a two-octave range.
You'll find that most people won't go up the dusty bit because they can't. (Then again, I do know a few folk who can't, but do any way. No excuse for that)
Highland pipers were the first to believe that gut strings made a more pleasant noise in their original location.
To try to 'placate' them, it's common practice in sessions here for (some of) the fiddles to drop an octave when playing pipe reels, marches etc. It's that dynamic range which is often a useful guide in determining whether a tune was originally written for the pipes - despite the many transformations it may have gone through - or fiddle.
However some of the best Scottish fiddle tunes, particularly reels and strathspeys do use the G string a fair bit and the resultant ricochet bowing (you almost can't help it on a reel) gives the dance/dancers a lift - again in moderation.
The Dusty End of the Neck...............
The Dusty End of the Neck...............
I have been watching carefully now and it seems that no one plays above first position. Is there a rule about only playing in first position at a session?? Is there some Irish tunes that really explore the dusty end of the neck??? Is there a few tunes that are great for first position and beyond. ( maybe on the tune file here? )I am on the bouzouki ( melody only )and have a long neck to explore.........................or should I stay in first position???????????
Erin
# Posted on July 23rd 2003 by erin
Re: The Dusty End of the Neck...............
I've seen a few bouzouki players that go up and down the neck and it gives a nice contrast.
# Posted on July 23rd 2003 by banjomad
Re: The Dusty End of the Neck...............
On my last posting about The Mason's Apron I mentioned Sean McGuire's many variations which go right up the neck. They would sound good on bouzouki. I use third position on the fiddle quite a lot if it makes the fingering easier. A few G minor tunes benefit from this. If you really want virtuoso stuff then get Scott Skinner's complete works for the fiddle. He uses some difficult keys (Eb should not exist), for many trad. players, and NEVER resists the temptation to journey up the neck. No dust there.
# Posted on July 23rd 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: The Dusty End of the Neck...............
There's a handful of tunes in O'Neill that go above the B on the E string, and I think you'll find some on this database. I suspect some of these tunes may have originated on pipes of one sort or other.
These high positions are not uncommon in Welsh hornpipes, which were originally written mostly for the harp, although one or two were evidently written by or for fiddlers who wanted to show off their technique.
A tip to track down these tunes if you're that interested. Download a large number of tunes in abc format as a single file into your word processor (e.g. Henrik Norbeck's collection). Then do a "find" search for c', d', e' and so on - notes above b. You'll then find the tunes with the high positions.
How these high notes are played is largely up to the individual, and suggestions abound in a recent thread on the "high c" - http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/1883, and the ability to play them is never useless.
I think we've come a long way from one or two of those old so-called traditions which seemed to restrict the available techniques. About a year ago someone actually said to me in a session that I should never move out of the first position - "it wasn't traditional". I chose to ignore that advice; the person giving it wasn't even a fiddle player!
Many of the younger generation of itm fiddle players now have a background of classical training, and I can see no good reason why some of this cannot be used WHERE APPROPRIATE in itm. For instance, in a fast passage, if it helps to keep up to speed by moving briefly up into the 3rd or 4th position on the A string instead of moving to and fro between the A and E strings, then do so. But always think about it first; perhaps in such a passage there may be a need to have the brightness of notes played on the E string, so you wouldn't then necessarily use the higher positions on the A string.
Trevor
# Posted on July 23rd 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The Dusty End of the Neck...............
Yeah agree Trevor, and conversely on some songs, slow airs, harmonies etc in particular you want to lose some of that brightness on the E so essential for reels, jigs, strathspeys and marches etc that you'll shift to 2nd, 3rd or 4th positions purely to extract the maximum mellow mood your instrument is capable of producing on the lower strings - the resulting slides sometimes producing heart-wrenching sounds (provided they're not overdone - are you out there Aly Bain?
Similar arguments common in my neck of the woods re use/ overuse of Vibrato.
Ron
# Posted on July 24th 2003 by fifer
Re: The Dusty End of the Neck...............
Erin, you'll note that while it's rare to go above a B (on the E string), it's also relatively rare to play anything on the G string. That's because the range of the tunes is usually constrained by the range of the whistle, the flute, and the pipes, which can go from a D up to that B. We stringy people (it's a mandolin over here) can go up much farther and down a little lower than that range. Of course moving out of first position can give you some interesting effects as the other chaps describe.
All the more remarkable to consider that, by and large, The Music does its thing in less than a two-octave range.
---Michael B.
# Posted on July 24th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: The Dusty End of the Neck...............
You'll find that most people won't go up the dusty bit because they can't. (Then again, I do know a few folk who can't, but do any way. No excuse for that)
# Posted on July 24th 2003 by ...
Re: The Dusty End of the Neck...............
Good point Michael B.
Highland pipers were the first to believe that gut strings made a more pleasant noise in their original location.
To try to 'placate' them, it's common practice in sessions here for (some of) the fiddles to drop an octave when playing pipe reels, marches etc. It's that dynamic range which is often a useful guide in determining whether a tune was originally written for the pipes - despite the many transformations it may have gone through - or fiddle.
However some of the best Scottish fiddle tunes, particularly reels and strathspeys do use the G string a fair bit and the resultant ricochet bowing (you almost can't help it on a reel) gives the dance/dancers a lift - again in moderation.
Ron
# Posted on July 24th 2003 by fifer