Hi, I've been trying to play the fiddle for about 6 months now and having a great time! I have a few questions and if anyone could give their opinion it would be a great help.
1. When I try to keep my left hand at the very bottom of the neck I find it very hard to reach the correct pitch with my 4th finger, the stretch is just too much, so my thumb wants to slide up (The knuckle on my first finger stays put). If it does slide up a small bit then I have no problem playing with my fourth finger. Is this ok?
2. What is the best way to develop the feel and looseness in the wrist that all great fiddlers have?
3. What is the best way to learn tunes? I know that in order to build speed you must try to make the playing as smooth as possible. is it a good idea to keep learning tunes even though the ones you know are still slow and need work? And what is the best way to develop these?
Seek out a teacher...probably one with some classical training at this point, and have him or her take a look. At this stage, the technique you want in the left hand is going to be exactly the same (though how you adopt technique to the music will be different).
A good left hand position is a good left hand position regardless of the style of music...and good habits formed now will give you options, flexibility, and choices later, no matter what genre of music you choose to play.
If no teacher is available, pretend you're holding a wine glass up for a toast...palm facing you. That's roughly the angle you want for your wrist when you play. Notice it's angled forward, maybe 40 degrees, not backward. It's that backward angle that's going to restrict your 4th finger reach.
2. Practice, man, practice. Watch Mark O'Connor videos for that wrist looseness. I wouldn't play Irish music like him, stylistically...but for a technical role model, you can do a lot worse, IMO! Tip: Let the weight of the bow do some of the work for you. And practice very slowly. Too slow is just right.
3. The best way to learn tunes? Go to sessions, if you can. Listen a lot. And put in the time. Some people will tell you that it's best to learn one tune perfectly rather than five tunes so-so. This is true...until you just can't stand the first tune anymore and it's no longer fun. If you still enjoy the first tunes, stick with those. If you're not enjoying yourself, then go to tunes you DO enjoy, and learn those. The lessons you learn from the second batch will probably help with the first batch anyway.
Then you can hang it up for a while and pick out the next one. Concentrate first on rhythm, next on getting each detail perfect. Emulate Martin Hayes, if you have to emulate anyone. Slow and beautiful, with exquisite attention to detail. (Hayes can shred with anyone. But he's got REAL technique, so he doesn't have to!)
1, If you have to slide up a bit to hit the correct pitch, then so be it. You might find that your reach is being impeded somewhat by tension in your hand, something which will improve over time. And you might find that your reach generally just improves as you play more.
I would check with a teacher because it's possible that there might be something you could tweak to improve the situation.
2. I assume you are talking about the right hand wrist here. In a sense, bowing is simple -- you do whatever works for your body and in order to make the the bow glide smoothly across the strings about halfway between the bridge and the end of your fingerboard.
All of the stuff that you might be worrying about, like have a flexible wrist, the proper arm position, etc, is all just a means to this end. I think it is helpful to experiment with your bow, playing very slow strokes in order to become familiar with it sounds and feels to be letting the bow glide effortlessly across the strings. And then as you probably need to put some time into identifying and eliminating all sources of tension. This will be an ongoing process unless you are one of the lucky few who just seem to grok bowing from the start.
I would recommend discussing this with teacher just to keep you from wasting a lot of time.
3. This really depends on your goals. But there is a real danger of building repertoire at the expense of sounding good. I would lean towards getting a few tunes sounding really good, having gone the other direction myself in the past with unhappy results.
And one more thing -- be very careful about session playing at this stage. It can really encourage some bad technique.
I think everyone hit the nail on the head regarding questions 1 and 3. About bow arm looseness...I struggled with this for years, slogging through nasty classical concertos at warp speed, etc, etc, eventually developing all sorts of problems, like carpal tunnel and tendonitis. My big breakthrough came when a teacher in college reminded me that it's the violin that holds the bow on the strings, not your fingers or your hand. You can add pressure with your hand and arm to make a bigger sound, but the strings hold the bow up. So, with the weight taken off your fingers and wrist, you can unclench those muscles and use them to push the bow around.
Looseness comes with time and practice, but here's an exercise I still do everyday: Hold a pencil like you would a bow and "push" and "pull" it around using only your fingers, sort of flicking or wiggling your fingers up and down. You can do the same thing while practicing, moving the bow only with your fingers. Practice long strokes and when you change directions from up to down, push your wrist down slightly, and when you change from down to up, pull your wrist up slightly and push the bow with your fingers, trying to keep your shoulder and elbow loose and flowing. Practice in front of a mirror. Find a teacher or another knowledgeable fiddler or violinist to guide you through this. DON'T force your wrist up or down, it should feel natural.
If youre in Ireland then you should get a Trad fiddle teacher. There are many out there who are very good at technique and they can give you all the pointers and tips on trad stuff.
You know, I practiced that bow movement for hour after hour without a bow. Just driving around listening to fiddle music and trying to mimic the bow movement and bow pressure with my right hand flailing about.
Well, not flailing. It was controlled and deliberate. But it definitely helped. I got a lot better after I was doing that and then consciously trying to integrate that into my practicing.
1. Try to bend your wrist a little and reach out with the fourth finger. If you move your thumb you've lost your "anchor," and that's likely to throw off your intonation. The fourth finger is always a problem in the beginning, it'll get better as you get used to it. Also, you may be trying to reach too far, it's not as big of a stretch as it might seem.
2. Time. It takes time, and lots of it. Be patient, you won't get that relaxed wrist until you've played for quite a while.
3. Keep learning new tunes, and go back to the old ones once in a while. You'll improve faster by learning new tunes than by playing the same ones over and over.
I agree with Marklar You've got to build a vocabulary of common
patterns that occur in the Tunes. As you learn more of these patterns,
you will find some things you learned earlier suddenly got easy, even
though you didn't work on them very much.
If I worked on one tune until it was "perfect", I still would only know
one tune - and I wouldn't be happy with it either.
Find a classical teacher? Thats freakin garbage advice! There, I've neutralized that poison.
Go find the music being played and listen good. Listen as intensely as you can. It's a hard thing to grasp right away... people want to look, but listen. Some days will be easir than others... sometimes your listening skills will be like a steel trap... your whole being absorbing and grasping the muci... It will get into you this way... when it's in you will find a way to bring it out. Yes relaz... is what you are doing "wrong" NO... every good fiddler has a style. That style is based on physical strengths, limitations, personal tastes and physical traits. From reading a little about your history, I think you have a spark of passion for the music.... that is important... don't let anyone get in the way of that!
-I am McCracken
Sigh... This has got to be a record for the time between the original post and the flood of unhelpful advice.
Let me try to actually answer the questions asked:
1) your little finger *should* be able to reach without a bother. If it can't, you're probably holding the fiddle incorrectly (I've taught dozens of beginners, and I've never seen someone who's finger didn't reach--unless they were doing something else wrong). Here are the most common problems I've seen:
a) left elbow not underneath the fiddle
b) wrist bent (fiddle-neck resting in palm)
c) thumb too far back (it should be opposite the 2nd finger)
I'm not a fiddle-position-zealot, but I do believe that holding it correctly both helps you play in tune, AND prevents repetitive strain injuries (especially if you're starting as an adult).
2) looseness in the wrist comes from not tightening the wrist, which isn't as stupid as it sounds. But since you've only been playing for 6 months, you can't expect to have the kind of familiarity with the bow that somebody who's been playing for 30 years has. Still, there are a couple things you can do that will move you in the right direction:
a) make sure ALL of your fingers on your right hand are curved. NONE of them should EVER be locked-straight.
b) make sure you are bowing from the elbow, not the shoulder. Your upper-arm shouldn't NEED to move at all. Brace your tricep against a door-frame to see if you're moving it extraneously.
In the end, though, a good teacher, classical or otherwise (though classical teachers generally spend more time worrying about position), should be able to point out any obvious mistakes you're making that don't come through in an internet post.
3) The best way to learn tunes is to do so constantly. Listen all the time, learn to sing them, and try to learn as many as you can, as well as you can, and as often as you can. Rework tunes you learned earlier, to try to make them better. The sweet-spot between quality and quantity is impossible to communicate over written text (another thing a teacher is good for). Suffice to say that you need some balance of both. Without some quantity, you don't get a chance to play; without quality, people prefer that you didn't play.
When I was a lad, I wanted to play the violin. I had six of classical training before I gave it up. I didn't like classical music, and was not exposed to traditional music, either Irish or American, though being of that culture.
Picked it up again fifteen years later to play traditional. I picked it up and ran with it. It's been another six years of playing since then.
About three years ago, I started to have awful forearm pain. Found a masseuse, carpal tunnel is quite frequent among us drones, as we all grind on computers all day, and there's exercises you can do.
The biggest problem was choking the fiddle neck when. When you're a kid, you have to, in order to press your fingers down. I have to correct myself constantly to avoid throttling the poor thing.
What the heck is point of all this? I have no idea. I think I've had too much of the same stuff McCracken's been into.
Hmmm ... which bits are "unhelpful", Georgi? And was the "flood of unhelpful advice" too slow? Or too quick? I'm slightly puzzled, because most of the posts above stressed that the best thing to do is to listen. To trad. That, surely, has got to be the most important thing, yes?
Regarding left hand thumb position, if heliopause's first finger doesn't stray out of position, and the thumb's mobile, I reckon that's not too bad. Better than "throttling the poor thing". Though I suppose a little more curl of the fingers over the fingerboard and the elbow being further under the fiddle might help. Impossible to tell, though, without seeing how heliopause is doing it.
The bow - well, yes, all the fingers should be curled - but this won't help if they're curled but still rigid and gripping tight to the bow. The trick is to be relaxed and not to 'grip' the bow at all.
Get a classical teacher? Can't see the point. S/he's going to teach you classical stuff. Why not learn the tunes from some decent trad player who will be able to help with technique at the same time?
Never seen anyone who's little finger won't reach, Georgi? Drop in sometime. My first and little fingers are bent slightly inward at the top joint (in towards the other fingers, that is). This restricts my reach. I've had to a) develop strategies to get round this (if possible, I pivot on the second or third fingers, taking the first finger off but using the second and third to maintain my hand position) b) playing mandolin and mandola, the longer stop length has enabled me to develop the stretch over time.
Just don't bother about technique. It doesn't really matter how you hold it, just try to feel comfortable. All the really important things to do with this music can all be done perfectly well with what any "trained" violinist would describe as poor technique.
Sure, good technique won't get in the way, but it's a case of diminishing returns.
The best advice I was ever given was to never ever ever practice. Just listen, and play. If you do enough of that, you'll never need to practice.
To help you develop the right position of your left hand and the stretch in your hand: start to put the 4th finger down on the E string (B), then the 3rd, then 2nd, then 1st. Make sure the pitch is absolutely correct (given you 're playing in D: check the 3rd finger with open A string (octave), second with open G (octave), second with open A. To check the pitch of the 4th finger, first play a B on the A string, check it with open E, then play B-E double stop and correct your 4th until you have an octave).
If you are doing it the 'usual way' (1st, 2nd etc.) it is harder for a beginner and you' re more likely to build up a wrong hand position.
Michael said 'The best advice I was ever given was to never ever ever practice. Just listen, and play. If you do enough of that, you'll never need to practice'.
Don't believe a word of it . Unless you'r e a natural talent of course.
I can see how that could be fine advice for the fiddle. If tried with pipes of most varieties though it would result in a right mess. Even though they're traditionally taught by ear practicing doublings/crans and such things is extremely important.
I have been knocking away on the fiddle for about six months, I have enjoyed every second of it, I am almost addicted, I might have a quick 15 minutes on it at 12 midnight and then another 15 minutes in the morning before I go to work, basically I am always thinking of my next opportunity to play.
I have been learning the whistle for the last year, so the tunes I learn on the whistle,without much hassle I can play them on the fiddle, not perfectly but practice makes perfect.
I bought an okish carbon bow, Good Rosin, Good strings..and a yita fiddle from ebay, Got the fiddle set up by my daughters fiddle teacher-- I have one annoying technique issue..I almost growl- Hum to the air of the tune unnoticed to myself...and I can not stop doing it !
Well bogman, IMO learning any physical skill requires a very similar approach and skill development. So whether its pipes, fiddle, driving a car, riding a horse, whatever, they all require you have the basic techniques down. developing fluid and relaxed coordination, having the manual dexterity to accomplish the task in hand. The underlying knowledge that only comes through experience and practice.
I suggest going to an expert to learn any skill, or applying the lessons learnt from an expert in another field.
,
There are many skills which are far too complicated, precise, and technical to just learn by attempting to just 'do it' without getting the fundamentals under your belt. IMO fiddling is one of these.
do you think frankie gavin cares that h doesn't hold the bow at the frog? Do you think Liz Carroll cares that she plays with her lft wrist flat to the neck? etc.
All the really important things to do with this music can all be done perfectly well with what any "trained" violinist would describe as poor technique.
A particular fiddler, such as you mention, might well have a particular quirk that would be classed as bad technique amongst some, but many bad habits? .These fiddlers are able to play great music in spite of these issues, not because of them.
They were raised within the tradition. To attempt to emulate their 'bad' habits without the fundamental training and grounding they received from childhood would not be helpful in any way. Do you think Frankie or Liz never practised?
Do you think they are proponents of the 'stick it under your chin and scrape away' method ?
liz carroll, does not have small hands,her method of playing would not work for someone with smaller hands.
holding the fiddle with a flat hand under the neck is limiting,for people with small hands,it means you cant get into third position,and sometimes it can be difficult to get the high b.
For people with large hands they can use finger extensions,
I doubt If LizCarroll could play tunes like the Dawn,which I believe goes into fifth position,with a flat hand.
So individual anatomy comes into the reckoning.
Ionannas[imo]is talkng sense
Anyone who says (or implies) that there is only one way to do something is flat out wrong.
I suspect that when llig says "don't practice, play", he means "don't bugger about with scales, and other exercises, just play tunes". I would agree. I have a friend who has been taking violin/fiddle lessons for 3 years now. His musicality only took a huge leap when he found a trad repertoire that he enjoyed playing and he started playing and listening to this stuff for the fun of it.
I suspect he would have reached exactly the same level as he has now, had he gone for the "just scrape away" method (at least for the things I consider important).
No one is suggesting *copying* the position of F Gavin or any other trad player. So long as you have a relaxed position, with both hands, you will eventually settle into something that will work for you.
Oh and one of the most rewarding ways of learning tunes is to learn to sing them (not to any high standard, but just enough to have the notes). Once you can sing a tune, you *know* the tune and it's just a matter of playing it on the instrument. At first this will be very hard. But after anywhere between 1 day and 5 years, you should be able to hear simple tunes, learn how they go and then play them.
Gee, I think I want to play the blooz... does anyone know a good classical guitar instructor I can learn from? What the heell areSOME of you people smokin? WHy on this sight is it neccesary to constantly refer to vlassical music or jazz or blues or rock or your freeakin experiences with such lesser musics? This is the session. Its about playing jigz and reelz... Go to yer classical site ot yer jazz site and your whatever site. Is the music good enough for you or what? Is the traditional of playing tunes from a rural non-classical idiom good enough fer you or NOT? How did Doherty leanr to play the fiddle or Keenan the pipes? How did all those people that came before learn the music? Look into that....Some say from the fairies... then from the fairies it is... Thats good enough for me.
I play tunes from a rural non-classical idiom , so what? that doesnt mean I have to stick my head in the sand! I still want to learn from whoever can teach me. that includes the fairies!
Where did McCracken say stick yer haead in the sand? Is that what it means to you to trust the music? What I am saying is get yer head OUT of the sand... its all around and sifting down, faster and faster, and theres to many people adding sand to the hole they are digging. So I come along and stick up for tradition and you impose a generic saying to my wisdom. I have blessed this discussion with advice and thats what I get? Try what I said helio--- just try it... don't get trapped in the sands
You've misuderstood dickens, bogman. You've ignored his last 4 words in that sentence. He said LC couldn't play the tune "WITH A FLAT HAND", which may possibly be true. Take a look again.
mcracken, you gave no advice,, you asked a bunch of questions... I have spent many years 'looking into it' as you say. What do you recomend? visit a fairy fort at midnight?
Trust the music... what do you mean?
What do you suggest a fiddler should do then? 'just scrape away'? I tried that for years, after 3 to 5 years thats all I could do. So I abandoned this 'method'. I think its a cr@p idea. maybe it might work for some, so be it. It didnt work for me.
Thanks for blessing this site with your wisdom, good fer you. so what do you suggest? the fairy fort?
Start slow - it's much harder than playing fast, but if you can play a tune slowly but rhythmically, when you do progress to playing it faster, you'll be able to play it rhythmically as well, instead of it running away with you. It also means you'll be able to learn harder tunes that you can't just play fast straight away (Trip to Windsor, Jean's Reel etc). A slack wrist comes from years of playing. I've been playing 7 years and I'm not quite there yet... As for your 4th finger, do whatever's comfortable for you. I think I do the same as you so...
Slow is grand, but it has to swing!
It can also end up creating a false sense of security, you can play this tune or that tune slowly, with all yer twiddly bits, but when you get to a real session they can be playing a warp speed! So practice/ play fast too!, 'after' you can play it slowly with swing. IMO
everything about your technique is wrong you obviously have no natural talent or else youd have gotten somewhere by no
just give up and stop wasting our valuable time which could be spent discussing monumental bands like dervish
"Sorry Georgi, but I really dont see that suggesting someone learn from a trad teacher is bad advice. But each to their own I suppose."
Never meant to suggest trad teachers are bad. But insofar as the only thing that *really* matters about playing position is NOT INJURING YOURSELF, learning how to not hold the instrument poorly is a Really Good Thing (especially when so many of the injuries you can get from the fiddle take years to develop). Any position advice that ignores that fact is, frankly, a little irresponsible.
I don't care if you hold the fiddle up, down, or even upside-down... I don't care where you hold the bow on the stick. Just don't pretend that it's ok to clench it, to lock joints in fingers, or to collapse the wrist. Those things are recipes for disaster, and that disaster will strike you down (if you're unlucky) only when you've come to really enjoy the ability to play.
I only suggest classical teachers because they tend to worry about position more than traddies, in my experience. Many trad fiddlers (eg: llig, from all appearances) seem perfectly happy to let you go ahead and do what feels comfortable now, even if it means you might be ruined in 10 years.
I'm not advocating studying classical music, mind you. Just getting somepointers on how to hold the fiddle from someone who knows something about how to avoid the fast-track to RSI.
My apologies for calling people unhelpful. But I've seen too many fiddlers and aspiring fiddlers struck down by tendinitis, carpal-tunnel, etc. because their teachers abdicated the responsibility to teach them how not to hold their fiddle before it was too late. It's not that hard to hold it correctly, so it's a real shame when it goes bad.
Oh, and for the record, the last time I saw Frankie Gavin, he was holding the bow down at the frog (though I'm aware that he didn't used to).
The last time I saw Frankie Gavin there was 3 of him...
See, see you are telling me there is a "right" way and associating that with classical training again!... BLAH BLAH BLAH... I could learn more from watching a dog puke then seeking out a classicaly trained violinist...
Hello, my name is fidwiz, I am classically trained and have played violin since I was 12 and after 30 years of that I have spent the last few years playing Irish music. Call 555-5123 for Irish music lessons. First lesson is free. Learn the right way to hold your bow in 3 easy steps. Also, I am concerned about your safety. I wouldnt want you to get hurt pursuing your passion of Irish music, so I will teach you the right way to play and hold your intrument. . Since I am so concerned about your safety, If youa re a smoker, eat to much fat and not enough lean, or drink to much or engage in risky activities we will have to work on that as well.
I played like this[ choked up] for maybe 10 years and was perfectly happy with the results. But I found myself with a few months to spare and I thought I'd re-train myself out of a lot of "traditional" bad habits; the three main ones being,
holding the palm of my left hand parallel to the neck while gripping the nut tightly in the crook of my thumb and forefinger,
not using a shoulder rest,
and holding the bow away from the frog.
It took the few months to get as good as I was with the bad techniques, but oh boy, once those hurdles were over, what an exponential difference they have made to my playing, in almost every respect.
It's basically down to how much actual technique you actually "need" to play this music. Because the answer is "hardly any really", you come across some absolutely terrific players with dreadful technique. But me? I'm after an easy life, and a bit of technique really does make things a hell of a lot simpler in the long run.
I'm agreeing with you georgi - I think its dangerous to try and teach yourself the fiddle....because then you end up with all horrid things such as the things I have currently going on. (tennis elbow which had me out of action for 6 months) and something else that is going on but which I havent figured out what it is yet where my hand swells up and gets really painful and I cant play. But I still maintain that you should get a trad teacher who has good techinque.
Hey, Georgi is making some good points, while there are many odd ways you can play instruments, there are also some approaches that work better than others. I wish I had taken lessons when I was starting guitar--a year of monthly lessons with young Matt Heaton out of Boston a few years ago worked wonders for my playing! It is harder to unlearn a bad habit than just about anything else I have ever done.
For sure you can get trad teachers with good technique, and probably classical teachers with bad! You can get great players who are awful teachers and great teachers who are awful players. Its in the nature of things. Teaching and doing are different skills.
I found playing the fiddle very hard at first. It was only after I paid attention to good form that I got anywhere at all! The best way to hold the bow, the best way to hold the fiddle. that's what ye want IMO.
'Just scratch away', IMO, is truly bad advice.Sure It could well be possible to scratch out a few tunes but why learn something one way only to have to change it all down the line? Or end up deformed and crippled as a result, and I'm not exaggerating.
Any good trad player can demonstrate how the music is to be played right. box players, whatever. I reckon its best to learn the basics of bowing etc as a separate issue. After all they are the tools/techniques , not the product. You can use good tools/techniques or bad,. good tools make the job easier but its the creative skill that inspires the product.
So an inspired player can make a poor bow and fiddle sound amazing and a bad player could make a great fiddle and bow sound terrible. same with technique, good technique can produce poor music, poor technique can produce good music. That's not in contention I think. What I am suggesting is to acquire good technique to make great music.
Deliberately playing with bad form and instrument, out of choice, is just pretension. IMO
Yeah, I'd more or less agree with that. With the caveat of just being aware of diminishing returns. What I was trying to get over earlier in this thread is that's it's vital to not getting hung up on stuff like how you hold it. Keep your focus on the music, on making music.
Yes, good technique can produce poor music, poor technique can produce good music. But specifically with this genre, poor technique can produce great music. Liz Carroll is the best example. I'm not saying copy her technique, I agree that would be foolish. But as I say, be aware of diminishing returns.
If you are finding a particular tune, or bit of tune, out-with your ability, no amount of studying different ways of holding the instrument and/or technical exercises are going to help you out anywhere near as much as just playing it over and over and over. Just scraping away.
I agree with your point about diminishing returns.
But as to just scraping away? Repeating the same thing over and over again with expectations of a different result is a definition of insanity!.
Its not the notes and there order that matters so much as bringing them alive. Being able to play 'the tune' all the notes in the right order does not make it music, MIDI does that. !
Liz Carroll has one 'bad habit' I noticed; her left wrist . She manages to make incredible music with that and lets hope it doesn't cause her to be unable to play in future. That is the risk with bad habits. That's the main point here.
For sure poor technique can create great music. but why not start of with good technique? Its only a tool. Why insist on carving with a blunt knife? you may make a beautiful piece of work, but that doesn't mean using a sharp knife the work wont be as good! It could be a lot easier and maybe the carving will be even better!.
If Liz Played with good left hand form, perhaps her playing would be even better[if that were possible!]
I think the notes and their order do matter. I know that bringing them alive is the goal, but getting them in the right order is a start isn't it? I'm saying to get them in the right order, and play them over and over until the technique of doing so becomes effortless, while all the while trying to bring them alive.
''I'm saying to get them in the right order, and play them over and over until the technique of doing so becomes effortless, while all the while trying to bring them alive.''
I agree totally. What I am suggesting is in addition to this. It is simply focusing on the process its self. The How.
I have heard this expression before; 'just scrape away' spoken by a great box player. It probably wasn't intended to be derogatory. But to my ear that's how it came out, and to be honest, the fiddler in question [not me] did scrape away. It can work in sessions, but to have to 'scrape away' in public, with no accompaniment... No thanks.
Ah ha, this is where we differ then. I would say focus on the sound, not the process. If you focus on the sound, on improving the sound, the process will take care of itself.
When I say scrape away, I don't mean to scape away with no thought. I mean scrape and concentrate on making it sound better.
Once again though, its the 'how'. How do you make it sound better? what do you have to do? and what pitfalls to avoid?
Either way, whichever route we choose, we still have a similar goal, to play 'the music'. Georgi , has some important points about not damaging ourselves with poor technique.
Why did you change your way of playing after 10 yrs? Were you suffering some pain as a result of the way you were playing.?
Do you not think that , in your own case, starting off with out those 'bad habits' might have helped you progress faster?
I certainly agree that listening is the most important skill to develop. I feel however that too many fiddlers don't listen, because if they did they would have to hear all the scratchy noises and weak tone, the fumbled intonation etc.
I know that in my case I found it frustrating to sound so bad, I knew what I wanted to sound like, I just couldn't achieve it. It was only by working on various aspects of technique as a separate issue to the music that allowed me to become comfortable with my sound.
I'm not sure why I changed, it was 15 years ago, I can't really remember. I was doing a lot of busking at the time and I was getting a sore shoulder and neck, so I thought I'd try a shoulder rest. I'd never tried one before, it made a big difference straight away. But it changed the angle of the neck and so I had to change the angle of my hand. I'd sean people hold it the proper way, so I guess I just thought why not. My intonation was terrible for ages, but it did get better than before. Hard to tell whether it's because of the change, or just that I was playing a lot and listening.
FROM A DEAR FRIEND WHO HAS HAD TO STOP PLAYING FOR EIGHT WEEKS WITH A HORRENDOUS CASE OF TENDONITIS:
"Yes, I have been picking apart my playing style quite a bit to pin down the problems and I have discovered two that I know for sure: I have to play fairly loud at my regular gigs, as they are not amplified at all. I find that when I apply pressure with my right arm, then I tense up with my left. (Although I have tendonitis in both forearms and elbows, the left is by far the worst.) Secondly, I get lazy and stop supporting my instrument with my chin and shoulder and let some of the weight shift to my left hand. (A BIG no no when I was growing up, but I no longer have teachers yelling at me in lessons, so I slack off.) In about 6 weeks, I will start playing again, very gradually, and I hope to iron out these bad habits. Plus stretching and regular breaks are a must now."
It’s the 21st century. There is nothing to be gained from poor posture, unless you too want to end up with crippling tendonitis by the time you’re 40.
There are four main aspects to producing a big tone on the fiddle (leaving aside fiddle and bow set-up and choice of strings), and these are:
1. Where you bow on the string. Too far away from the bridge will give a quiet tone, but closer to the bridge will give a bigger and more brilliant sound. Too close to the bridge is for special FX only - either that or your name is Heifetz! The best all-round place for bowing is about half-way between the end of the standard-length fingerboard and the bridge.
2. Bow pressure. You don't want much more than the weight of the bow. Too much pressure in an attempt to get more volume will kill the tone, resulting in more pressure being applied, and yet more tone being killed. You'll need a little bit more pressure when playing close to the bridge in order to make the string respond, but when playing further away from the bridge, especially near the fingerboard, you'll need to reduce the pressure because the strings are so much slacker in this region.
3. Speed of bow. This is the main factor in producing a big tone. If you learn how to combine it with the right level of pressure and not to far from the bridge, then you've arrived. Don't make the mistake of trying to use too much bow when you're playing fast (as a lot of Irish music is); you run the real danger of losing control, and it looks terrible anyway. As an example I make no apology for bringing back our old friend - the video of John Shehan showing Andre Rieu what playing the Irish Washerwoman is all about, on http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l-JAP7Kf1cI. The faster the music went the more Rieu's bow went flailing all over the place, while John Shehan was using just a neat few inches of bow very efficiently at the same speed. I'm not revealing any great secret when I say that many amateur orchestral violinists, otherwise quite good, regularly make Rieu's mistake in fast playing, and have to be pulled up about it by the conductor during rehearsal.
4. Keep the bow parallel to the bridge as much as possible. If you don't then bowing energy is being wasted and some frictional noise is generated by the wrong angle of the bow instead of tone. If you have a relaxed and light bow hold you should find that the bow will tend to find its most efficient position on the string, and this is parallel to the bridge.
A relaxed right hand, wrist and fingers, the arm moving from the elbow downwards, virtually no movement from the upper arm, and not a single straight finger or thumb to be seen in the right hand, are fundamental to acquiring all of the above.
A useful exercise in getting bow control. Take a reel you know well and try to play it more or less up to speed but using ALL of the bow from the frog to the tip for EVERY note you're playing, no matter whether it's a quarter or eighth note. It's not all easy and sounds absolutely terrible - our local fox has been seen heading for the horizon at a rate of knots - so make sure the household is out of earshot; but it's a very effective exercise in technique.
Fiddle technique
Fiddle technique
Hi, I've been trying to play the fiddle for about 6 months now and having a great time! I have a few questions and if anyone could give their opinion it would be a great help.
1. When I try to keep my left hand at the very bottom of the neck I find it very hard to reach the correct pitch with my 4th finger, the stretch is just too much, so my thumb wants to slide up (The knuckle on my first finger stays put). If it does slide up a small bit then I have no problem playing with my fourth finger. Is this ok?
2. What is the best way to develop the feel and looseness in the wrist that all great fiddlers have?
3. What is the best way to learn tunes? I know that in order to build speed you must try to make the playing as smooth as possible. is it a good idea to keep learning tunes even though the ones you know are still slow and need work? And what is the best way to develop these?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by heliopause
Re: Fiddle technique
1. Yes.
2. Play.
3. Listen. Yes. Listen and play.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Fiddle technique
Hope it works out for you. Isn't it brilliant?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Fiddle technique
Seek out a teacher...probably one with some classical training at this point, and have him or her take a look. At this stage, the technique you want in the left hand is going to be exactly the same (though how you adopt technique to the music will be different).
A good left hand position is a good left hand position regardless of the style of music...and good habits formed now will give you options, flexibility, and choices later, no matter what genre of music you choose to play.
If no teacher is available, pretend you're holding a wine glass up for a toast...palm facing you. That's roughly the angle you want for your wrist when you play. Notice it's angled forward, maybe 40 degrees, not backward. It's that backward angle that's going to restrict your 4th finger reach.
2. Practice, man, practice. Watch Mark O'Connor videos for that wrist looseness. I wouldn't play Irish music like him, stylistically...but for a technical role model, you can do a lot worse, IMO! Tip: Let the weight of the bow do some of the work for you. And practice very slowly. Too slow is just right.
3. The best way to learn tunes? Go to sessions, if you can. Listen a lot. And put in the time. Some people will tell you that it's best to learn one tune perfectly rather than five tunes so-so. This is true...until you just can't stand the first tune anymore and it's no longer fun. If you still enjoy the first tunes, stick with those. If you're not enjoying yourself, then go to tunes you DO enjoy, and learn those. The lessons you learn from the second batch will probably help with the first batch anyway.
Then you can hang it up for a while and pick out the next one. Concentrate first on rhythm, next on getting each detail perfect. Emulate Martin Hayes, if you have to emulate anyone. Slow and beautiful, with exquisite attention to detail. (Hayes can shred with anyone. But he's got REAL technique, so he doesn't have to!)
Above all, have fun!
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Fiddle technique
My $.02...
1, If you have to slide up a bit to hit the correct pitch, then so be it. You might find that your reach is being impeded somewhat by tension in your hand, something which will improve over time. And you might find that your reach generally just improves as you play more.
I would check with a teacher because it's possible that there might be something you could tweak to improve the situation.
2. I assume you are talking about the right hand wrist here. In a sense, bowing is simple -- you do whatever works for your body and in order to make the the bow glide smoothly across the strings about halfway between the bridge and the end of your fingerboard.
All of the stuff that you might be worrying about, like have a flexible wrist, the proper arm position, etc, is all just a means to this end. I think it is helpful to experiment with your bow, playing very slow strokes in order to become familiar with it sounds and feels to be letting the bow glide effortlessly across the strings. And then as you probably need to put some time into identifying and eliminating all sources of tension. This will be an ongoing process unless you are one of the lucky few who just seem to grok bowing from the start.
I would recommend discussing this with teacher just to keep you from wasting a lot of time.
3. This really depends on your goals. But there is a real danger of building repertoire at the expense of sounding good. I would lean towards getting a few tunes sounding really good, having gone the other direction myself in the past with unhappy results.
And one more thing -- be very careful about session playing at this stage. It can really encourage some bad technique.
(OK, Llig, rip me to shreds.)
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Fiddle technique
I think everyone hit the nail on the head regarding questions 1 and 3. About bow arm looseness...I struggled with this for years, slogging through nasty classical concertos at warp speed, etc, etc, eventually developing all sorts of problems, like carpal tunnel and tendonitis. My big breakthrough came when a teacher in college reminded me that it's the violin that holds the bow on the strings, not your fingers or your hand. You can add pressure with your hand and arm to make a bigger sound, but the strings hold the bow up. So, with the weight taken off your fingers and wrist, you can unclench those muscles and use them to push the bow around.
Looseness comes with time and practice, but here's an exercise I still do everyday: Hold a pencil like you would a bow and "push" and "pull" it around using only your fingers, sort of flicking or wiggling your fingers up and down. You can do the same thing while practicing, moving the bow only with your fingers. Practice long strokes and when you change directions from up to down, push your wrist down slightly, and when you change from down to up, pull your wrist up slightly and push the bow with your fingers, trying to keep your shoulder and elbow loose and flowing. Practice in front of a mirror. Find a teacher or another knowledgeable fiddler or violinist to guide you through this. DON'T force your wrist up or down, it should feel natural.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by thebunnystomper
Re: Fiddle technique
If youre in Ireland then you should get a Trad fiddle teacher. There are many out there who are very good at technique and they can give you all the pointers and tips on trad stuff.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by bb
Re: Fiddle technique
god yes - lucky devil !!
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddle technique
You know, I practiced that bow movement for hour after hour without a bow. Just driving around listening to fiddle music and trying to mimic the bow movement and bow pressure with my right hand flailing about.
Well, not flailing. It was controlled and deliberate. But it definitely helped. I got a lot better after I was doing that and then consciously trying to integrate that into my practicing.
Very "wax-on, wax-off!"
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Fiddle technique
1. Try to bend your wrist a little and reach out with the fourth finger. If you move your thumb you've lost your "anchor," and that's likely to throw off your intonation. The fourth finger is always a problem in the beginning, it'll get better as you get used to it. Also, you may be trying to reach too far, it's not as big of a stretch as it might seem.
2. Time. It takes time, and lots of it. Be patient, you won't get that relaxed wrist until you've played for quite a while.
3. Keep learning new tunes, and go back to the old ones once in a while. You'll improve faster by learning new tunes than by playing the same ones over and over.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Fiddle technique
I agree with Marklar You've got to build a vocabulary of common
patterns that occur in the Tunes. As you learn more of these patterns,
you will find some things you learned earlier suddenly got easy, even
though you didn't work on them very much.
If I worked on one tune until it was "perfect", I still would only know
one tune - and I wouldn't be happy with it either.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddle technique
Find a classical teacher? Thats freakin garbage advice! There, I've neutralized that poison.
Go find the music being played and listen good. Listen as intensely as you can. It's a hard thing to grasp right away... people want to look, but listen. Some days will be easir than others... sometimes your listening skills will be like a steel trap... your whole being absorbing and grasping the muci... It will get into you this way... when it's in you will find a way to bring it out. Yes relaz... is what you are doing "wrong" NO... every good fiddler has a style. That style is based on physical strengths, limitations, personal tastes and physical traits. From reading a little about your history, I think you have a spark of passion for the music.... that is important... don't let anyone get in the way of that!
-I am McCracken
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Fiddle technique
Gras the muci and relaz! McCrackenz been hitting the tall bottle on the shelf...
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Fiddle technique
You take my advice and let me know how yer doing!
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Fiddle technique
Sigh... This has got to be a record for the time between the original post and the flood of unhelpful advice.
Let me try to actually answer the questions asked:
1) your little finger *should* be able to reach without a bother. If it can't, you're probably holding the fiddle incorrectly (I've taught dozens of beginners, and I've never seen someone who's finger didn't reach--unless they were doing something else wrong). Here are the most common problems I've seen:
a) left elbow not underneath the fiddle
b) wrist bent (fiddle-neck resting in palm)
c) thumb too far back (it should be opposite the 2nd finger)
I'm not a fiddle-position-zealot, but I do believe that holding it correctly both helps you play in tune, AND prevents repetitive strain injuries (especially if you're starting as an adult).
2) looseness in the wrist comes from not tightening the wrist, which isn't as stupid as it sounds. But since you've only been playing for 6 months, you can't expect to have the kind of familiarity with the bow that somebody who's been playing for 30 years has. Still, there are a couple things you can do that will move you in the right direction:
a) make sure ALL of your fingers on your right hand are curved. NONE of them should EVER be locked-straight.
b) make sure you are bowing from the elbow, not the shoulder. Your upper-arm shouldn't NEED to move at all. Brace your tricep against a door-frame to see if you're moving it extraneously.
In the end, though, a good teacher, classical or otherwise (though classical teachers generally spend more time worrying about position), should be able to point out any obvious mistakes you're making that don't come through in an internet post.
3) The best way to learn tunes is to do so constantly. Listen all the time, learn to sing them, and try to learn as many as you can, as well as you can, and as often as you can. Rework tunes you learned earlier, to try to make them better. The sweet-spot between quality and quantity is impossible to communicate over written text (another thing a teacher is good for). Suffice to say that you need some balance of both. Without some quantity, you don't get a chance to play; without quality, people prefer that you didn't play.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Fiddle technique
Sorry Georgi, but I really dont see that suggesting someone learn from a trad teacher is bad advice. But each to their own I suppose.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by bb
Re: Fiddle technique
Got a story for ya. ("...zzzzzz...")
When I was a lad, I wanted to play the violin. I had six of classical training before I gave it up. I didn't like classical music, and was not exposed to traditional music, either Irish or American, though being of that culture.
Picked it up again fifteen years later to play traditional. I picked it up and ran with it. It's been another six years of playing since then.
About three years ago, I started to have awful forearm pain. Found a masseuse, carpal tunnel is quite frequent among us drones, as we all grind on computers all day, and there's exercises you can do.
The biggest problem was choking the fiddle neck when. When you're a kid, you have to, in order to press your fingers down. I have to correct myself constantly to avoid throttling the poor thing.
What the heck is point of all this? I have no idea. I think I've had too much of the same stuff McCracken's been into.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddle technique
When what and why twice, you may ask? HA! I'll never tell.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddle technique
Hmmm ... which bits are "unhelpful", Georgi? And was the "flood of unhelpful advice" too slow? Or too quick? I'm slightly puzzled, because most of the posts above stressed that the best thing to do is to listen. To trad. That, surely, has got to be the most important thing, yes?
Regarding left hand thumb position, if heliopause's first finger doesn't stray out of position, and the thumb's mobile, I reckon that's not too bad. Better than "throttling the poor thing". Though I suppose a little more curl of the fingers over the fingerboard and the elbow being further under the fiddle might help. Impossible to tell, though, without seeing how heliopause is doing it.
The bow - well, yes, all the fingers should be curled - but this won't help if they're curled but still rigid and gripping tight to the bow. The trick is to be relaxed and not to 'grip' the bow at all.
Get a classical teacher? Can't see the point. S/he's going to teach you classical stuff. Why not learn the tunes from some decent trad player who will be able to help with technique at the same time?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Fiddle technique
Pompous much, Georgi?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Fiddle technique
I reread my advice and compared it to yours Georgi, and if mine is useless then so is yours.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Fiddle technique
Never seen anyone who's little finger won't reach, Georgi? Drop in sometime. My first and little fingers are bent slightly inward at the top joint (in towards the other fingers, that is). This restricts my reach. I've had to a) develop strategies to get round this (if possible, I pivot on the second or third fingers, taking the first finger off but using the second and third to maintain my hand position) b) playing mandolin and mandola, the longer stop length has enabled me to develop the stretch over time.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by c.g.
Re: Fiddle technique
That should, of course, be 'whose' not 'who's'. I apologise. It's early morning for me and I don't do mornings.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by c.g.
Re: Fiddle technique
Just don't bother about technique. It doesn't really matter how you hold it, just try to feel comfortable. All the really important things to do with this music can all be done perfectly well with what any "trained" violinist would describe as poor technique.
Sure, good technique won't get in the way, but it's a case of diminishing returns.
The best advice I was ever given was to never ever ever practice. Just listen, and play. If you do enough of that, you'll never need to practice.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
To help you develop the right position of your left hand and the stretch in your hand: start to put the 4th finger down on the E string (B), then the 3rd, then 2nd, then 1st. Make sure the pitch is absolutely correct (given you 're playing in D: check the 3rd finger with open A string (octave), second with open G (octave), second with open A. To check the pitch of the 4th finger, first play a B on the A string, check it with open E, then play B-E double stop and correct your 4th until you have an octave).
If you are doing it the 'usual way' (1st, 2nd etc.) it is harder for a beginner and you' re more likely to build up a wrong hand position.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddle technique
Michael said 'The best advice I was ever given was to never ever ever practice. Just listen, and play. If you do enough of that, you'll never need to practice'.
Don't believe a word of it
. Unless you'r e a natural talent of course.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddle technique
is there any such thing as an unnatural talent?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
I can see how that could be fine advice for the fiddle. If tried with pipes of most varieties though it would result in a right mess. Even though they're traditionally taught by ear practicing doublings/crans and such things is extremely important.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Bogman
Re: Fiddle technique
Sorry, I know this is a fiddle thread, but just in case learning pipers try to apply that advice to their own instrument.....
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Bogman
Re: Fiddle technique
All people are talented for fiddle playing, but some are more than others.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddle technique
Er.... possibly daft question here... what is a doubling?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
I have been knocking away on the fiddle for about six months, I have enjoyed every second of it, I am almost addicted, I might have a quick 15 minutes on it at 12 midnight and then another 15 minutes in the morning before I go to work, basically I am always thinking of my next opportunity to play.
I have been learning the whistle for the last year, so the tunes I learn on the whistle,without much hassle I can play them on the fiddle, not perfectly but practice makes perfect.
I bought an okish carbon bow, Good Rosin, Good strings..and a yita fiddle from ebay, Got the fiddle set up by my daughters fiddle teacher-- I have one annoying technique issue..I almost growl- Hum to the air of the tune unnoticed to myself...and I can not stop doing it !
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by premierview
Re: Fiddle technique
Well bogman, IMO learning any physical skill requires a very similar approach and skill development. So whether its pipes, fiddle, driving a car, riding a horse, whatever, they all require you have the basic techniques down. developing fluid and relaxed coordination, having the manual dexterity to accomplish the task in hand. The underlying knowledge that only comes through experience and practice.
I suggest going to an expert to learn any skill, or applying the lessons learnt from an expert in another field.
,
There are many skills which are far too complicated, precise, and technical to just learn by attempting to just 'do it' without getting the fundamentals under your belt. IMO fiddling is one of these.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
poppycock, stick it under your chin and scrape away.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
Ah yes, the 'stick it under your chin and scrape away method' recommended by numerous fine fiddlers such as....?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
do you think frankie gavin cares that h doesn't hold the bow at the frog? Do you think Liz Carroll cares that she plays with her lft wrist flat to the neck? etc.
All the really important things to do with this music can all be done perfectly well with what any "trained" violinist would describe as poor technique.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
A particular fiddler, such as you mention, might well have a particular quirk that would be classed as bad technique amongst some, but many bad habits? .These fiddlers are able to play great music in spite of these issues, not because of them.
They were raised within the tradition. To attempt to emulate their 'bad' habits without the fundamental training and grounding they received from childhood would not be helpful in any way. Do you think Frankie or Liz never practised?
Do you think they are proponents of the 'stick it under your chin and scrape away' method ?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
liz carroll, does not have small hands,her method of playing would not work for someone with smaller hands.
holding the fiddle with a flat hand under the neck is limiting,for people with small hands,it means you cant get into third position,and sometimes it can be difficult to get the high b.
For people with large hands they can use finger extensions,
I doubt If LizCarroll could play tunes like the Dawn,which I believe goes into fifth position,with a flat hand.
So individual anatomy comes into the reckoning.
Ionannas[imo]is talkng sense
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Fiddle technique
Anyone who says (or implies) that there is only one way to do something is flat out wrong.
I suspect that when llig says "don't practice, play", he means "don't bugger about with scales, and other exercises, just play tunes". I would agree. I have a friend who has been taking violin/fiddle lessons for 3 years now. His musicality only took a huge leap when he found a trad repertoire that he enjoyed playing and he started playing and listening to this stuff for the fun of it.
I suspect he would have reached exactly the same level as he has now, had he gone for the "just scrape away" method (at least for the things I consider important).
No one is suggesting *copying* the position of F Gavin or any other trad player. So long as you have a relaxed position, with both hands, you will eventually settle into something that will work for you.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Tirno
Re: Fiddle technique
Oh and one of the most rewarding ways of learning tunes is to learn to sing them (not to any high standard, but just enough to have the notes). Once you can sing a tune, you *know* the tune and it's just a matter of playing it on the instrument. At first this will be very hard. But after anywhere between 1 day and 5 years, you should be able to hear simple tunes, learn how they go and then play them.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Tirno
Re: Fiddle technique
"I doubt If LizCarroll could play tunes like the Dawn"
- You can not be serious.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Bogman
Re: Fiddle technique
I don't think dickens is thinking of this tune, bogman
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/167
since he's talking about the 5th (!) position! Or it must be another version.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: Fiddle technique
"is there any such thing as an unnatural talent?"
Meet me at the crossroads and find out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Johnson_(musician)
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by hotsauce
Re: Fiddle technique
Michael if it is as simple as you are claiming, than why are there so many mediocre fiddlers?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Fiddle technique
crazy....maybe that is why !...they use the 'just scrape away 'method''
henk, he's talking about this vsn;http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8214
4th position, 5th position, its all the same to me
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
Yes Henk, I realize that's the tune he means but to say Liz Carroll couldn't play it is ridiculous.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Bogman
Re: Fiddle technique
Gee, I think I want to play the blooz... does anyone know a good classical guitar instructor I can learn from? What the heell areSOME of you people smokin? WHy on this sight is it neccesary to constantly refer to vlassical music or jazz or blues or rock or your freeakin experiences with such lesser musics? This is the session. Its about playing jigz and reelz... Go to yer classical site ot yer jazz site and your whatever site. Is the music good enough for you or what? Is the traditional of playing tunes from a rural non-classical idiom good enough fer you or NOT? How did Doherty leanr to play the fiddle or Keenan the pipes? How did all those people that came before learn the music? Look into that....Some say from the fairies... then from the fairies it is... Thats good enough for me.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Fiddle technique
I play tunes from a rural non-classical idiom , so what? that doesnt mean I have to stick my head in the sand! I still want to learn from whoever can teach me. that includes the fairies!
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
Where did McCracken say stick yer haead in the sand? Is that what it means to you to trust the music? What I am saying is get yer head OUT of the sand... its all around and sifting down, faster and faster, and theres to many people adding sand to the hole they are digging. So I come along and stick up for tradition and you impose a generic saying to my wisdom. I have blessed this discussion with advice and thats what I get? Try what I said helio--- just try it... don't get trapped in the sands
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Fiddle technique
You've misuderstood dickens, bogman. You've ignored his last 4 words in that sentence. He said LC couldn't play the tune "WITH A FLAT HAND", which may possibly be true. Take a look again.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Kenny
Re: Fiddle technique
mcracken, you gave no advice,, you asked a bunch of questions... I have spent many years 'looking into it' as you say. What do you recomend? visit a fairy fort at midnight?
Trust the music... what do you mean?
What do you suggest a fiddler should do then? 'just scrape away'? I tried that for years, after 3 to 5 years thats all I could do. So I abandoned this 'method'. I think its a cr@p idea. maybe it might work for some, so be it. It didnt work for me.
Thanks for blessing this site with your wisdom, good fer you. so what do you suggest? the fairy fort?
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
Ah Kenny, you're absolutely right. My apologies Dickens.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Bogman
Re: Fiddle technique
Start slow - it's much harder than playing fast, but if you can play a tune slowly but rhythmically, when you do progress to playing it faster, you'll be able to play it rhythmically as well, instead of it running away with you. It also means you'll be able to learn harder tunes that you can't just play fast straight away (Trip to Windsor, Jean's Reel etc). A slack wrist comes from years of playing. I've been playing 7 years and I'm not quite there yet... As for your 4th finger, do whatever's comfortable for you. I think I do the same as you so...
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by snowyowl
Re: Fiddle technique
Slow is grand, but it has to swing!
It can also end up creating a false sense of security, you can play this tune or that tune slowly, with all yer twiddly bits, but when you get to a real session they can be playing a warp speed! So practice/ play fast too!, 'after' you can play it slowly with swing. IMO
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
everything about your technique is wrong you obviously have no natural talent or else youd have gotten somewhere by no
just give up and stop wasting our valuable time which could be spent discussing monumental bands like dervish
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by JohnMurphy2k8
Re: Fiddle technique
"Slow has no swing" ?? Oh dear.
Time to refine my advice:
1. Listen
2. Don't practice, play. (and make sure you listen to what you play)
2. Stick it under your chin and scrape away. (and listen)
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
I'm guessing you don't play too many waltzes or jigs, michael. Might have to count to three.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Fiddle technique
tee he.
(maybe it's too many times of testing whether a microphone is on)
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
"Sorry Georgi, but I really dont see that suggesting someone learn from a trad teacher is bad advice. But each to their own I suppose."
Never meant to suggest trad teachers are bad. But insofar as the only thing that *really* matters about playing position is NOT INJURING YOURSELF, learning how to not hold the instrument poorly is a Really Good Thing (especially when so many of the injuries you can get from the fiddle take years to develop). Any position advice that ignores that fact is, frankly, a little irresponsible.
I don't care if you hold the fiddle up, down, or even upside-down... I don't care where you hold the bow on the stick. Just don't pretend that it's ok to clench it, to lock joints in fingers, or to collapse the wrist. Those things are recipes for disaster, and that disaster will strike you down (if you're unlucky) only when you've come to really enjoy the ability to play.
I only suggest classical teachers because they tend to worry about position more than traddies, in my experience. Many trad fiddlers (eg: llig, from all appearances) seem perfectly happy to let you go ahead and do what feels comfortable now, even if it means you might be ruined in 10 years.
I'm not advocating studying classical music, mind you. Just getting somepointers on how to hold the fiddle from someone who knows something about how to avoid the fast-track to RSI.
My apologies for calling people unhelpful. But I've seen too many fiddlers and aspiring fiddlers struck down by tendinitis, carpal-tunnel, etc. because their teachers abdicated the responsibility to teach them how not to hold their fiddle before it was too late. It's not that hard to hold it correctly, so it's a real shame when it goes bad.
Oh, and for the record, the last time I saw Frankie Gavin, he was holding the bow down at the frog (though I'm aware that he didn't used to).
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Fiddle technique
Try and find a Suzuki-trained teacher. They're not restricted to any particular genre.
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddle technique
The last time I saw Frankie Gavin there was 3 of him...
See, see you are telling me there is a "right" way and associating that with classical training again!... BLAH BLAH BLAH... I could learn more from watching a dog puke then seeking out a classicaly trained violinist...
Hello, my name is fidwiz, I am classically trained and have played violin since I was 12 and after 30 years of that I have spent the last few years playing Irish music. Call 555-5123 for Irish music lessons. First lesson is free. Learn the right way to hold your bow in 3 easy steps. Also, I am concerned about your safety. I wouldnt want you to get hurt pursuing your passion of Irish music, so I will teach you the right way to play and hold your intrument. . Since I am so concerned about your safety, If youa re a smoker, eat to much fat and not enough lean, or drink to much or engage in risky activities we will have to work on that as well.
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Fiddle technique
Um, can we guess from that last post that McCracken is based in the USA?
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddle technique
Hey Georgi, you can get in touch directly with Liz Carroll at this address:
mailto:lizfiddle@gmail.com
Seeings as you care so much, why don't you copy paste your posting above and send it to her.
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
if this is you georgi, looks like you're choked up a bit
http://www.georgekeith.net/
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by airport
Re: Fiddle technique
Does it matter where I'm from?
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by McCracken
Re: Fiddle technique
I played like this[ choked up] for maybe 10 years and was perfectly happy with the results. But I found myself with a few months to spare and I thought I'd re-train myself out of a lot of "traditional" bad habits; the three main ones being,
holding the palm of my left hand parallel to the neck while gripping the nut tightly in the crook of my thumb and forefinger,
not using a shoulder rest,
and holding the bow away from the frog.
It took the few months to get as good as I was with the bad techniques, but oh boy, once those hurdles were over, what an exponential difference they have made to my playing, in almost every respect.
It's basically down to how much actual technique you actually "need" to play this music. Because the answer is "hardly any really", you come across some absolutely terrific players with dreadful technique. But me? I'm after an easy life, and a bit of technique really does make things a hell of a lot simpler in the long run.
# Posted on February 4th 2006 by llig leahcim
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
Yep, that's me
# Posted on September 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
I'm agreeing with you georgi - I think its dangerous to try and teach yourself the fiddle....because then you end up with all horrid things such as the things I have currently going on. (tennis elbow which had me out of action for 6 months) and something else that is going on but which I havent figured out what it is yet where my hand swells up and gets really painful and I cant play. But I still maintain that you should get a trad teacher who has good techinque.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by bb
Re: Fiddle technique
Hey, Georgi is making some good points, while there are many odd ways you can play instruments, there are also some approaches that work better than others. I wish I had taken lessons when I was starting guitar--a year of monthly lessons with young Matt Heaton out of Boston a few years ago worked wonders for my playing! It is harder to unlearn a bad habit than just about anything else I have ever done.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Fiddle technique
For sure you can get trad teachers with good technique, and probably classical teachers with bad! You can get great players who are awful teachers and great teachers who are awful players. Its in the nature of things. Teaching and doing are different skills.
I found playing the fiddle very hard at first. It was only after I paid attention to good form that I got anywhere at all! The best way to hold the bow, the best way to hold the fiddle. that's what ye want IMO.
'Just scratch away', IMO, is truly bad advice.Sure It could well be possible to scratch out a few tunes but why learn something one way only to have to change it all down the line? Or end up deformed and crippled as a result, and I'm not exaggerating.
Any good trad player can demonstrate how the music is to be played right. box players, whatever. I reckon its best to learn the basics of bowing etc as a separate issue. After all they are the tools/techniques , not the product. You can use good tools/techniques or bad,. good tools make the job easier but its the creative skill that inspires the product.
So an inspired player can make a poor bow and fiddle sound amazing and a bad player could make a great fiddle and bow sound terrible. same with technique, good technique can produce poor music, poor technique can produce good music. That's not in contention I think. What I am suggesting is to acquire good technique to make great music.
Deliberately playing with bad form and instrument, out of choice, is just pretension. IMO
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
Yeah, I'd more or less agree with that. With the caveat of just being aware of diminishing returns. What I was trying to get over earlier in this thread is that's it's vital to not getting hung up on stuff like how you hold it. Keep your focus on the music, on making music.
Yes, good technique can produce poor music, poor technique can produce good music. But specifically with this genre, poor technique can produce great music. Liz Carroll is the best example. I'm not saying copy her technique, I agree that would be foolish. But as I say, be aware of diminishing returns.
If you are finding a particular tune, or bit of tune, out-with your ability, no amount of studying different ways of holding the instrument and/or technical exercises are going to help you out anywhere near as much as just playing it over and over and over. Just scraping away.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
I agree with your point about diminishing returns.
But as to just scraping away? Repeating the same thing over and over again with expectations of a different result is a definition of insanity!.
Its not the notes and there order that matters so much as bringing them alive. Being able to play 'the tune' all the notes in the right order does not make it music, MIDI does that. !
Liz Carroll has one 'bad habit' I noticed; her left wrist . She manages to make incredible music with that and lets hope it doesn't cause her to be unable to play in future. That is the risk with bad habits. That's the main point here.
For sure poor technique can create great music. but why not start of with good technique? Its only a tool. Why insist on carving with a blunt knife? you may make a beautiful piece of work, but that doesn't mean using a sharp knife the work wont be as good! It could be a lot easier and maybe the carving will be even better!.
If Liz Played with good left hand form, perhaps her playing would be even better[if that were possible!]
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
I think the notes and their order do matter. I know that bringing them alive is the goal, but getting them in the right order is a start isn't it? I'm saying to get them in the right order, and play them over and over until the technique of doing so becomes effortless, while all the while trying to bring them alive.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
''I'm saying to get them in the right order, and play them over and over until the technique of doing so becomes effortless, while all the while trying to bring them alive.''
I agree totally. What I am suggesting is in addition to this. It is simply focusing on the process its self. The How.
I have heard this expression before; 'just scrape away' spoken by a great box player. It probably wasn't intended to be derogatory. But to my ear that's how it came out, and to be honest, the fiddler in question [not me] did scrape away. It can work in sessions, but to have to 'scrape away' in public, with no accompaniment... No thanks.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
Ah ha, this is where we differ then. I would say focus on the sound, not the process. If you focus on the sound, on improving the sound, the process will take care of itself.
When I say scrape away, I don't mean to scape away with no thought. I mean scrape and concentrate on making it sound better.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
Once again though, its the 'how'. How do you make it sound better? what do you have to do? and what pitfalls to avoid?
Either way, whichever route we choose, we still have a similar goal, to play 'the music'. Georgi , has some important points about not damaging ourselves with poor technique.
Why did you change your way of playing after 10 yrs? Were you suffering some pain as a result of the way you were playing.?
Do you not think that , in your own case, starting off with out those 'bad habits' might have helped you progress faster?
I certainly agree that listening is the most important skill to develop. I feel however that too many fiddlers don't listen, because if they did they would have to hear all the scratchy noises and weak tone, the fumbled intonation etc.
I know that in my case I found it frustrating to sound so bad, I knew what I wanted to sound like, I just couldn't achieve it. It was only by working on various aspects of technique as a separate issue to the music that allowed me to become comfortable with my sound.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Fiddle technique
I'm not sure why I changed, it was 15 years ago, I can't really remember. I was doing a lot of busking at the time and I was getting a sore shoulder and neck, so I thought I'd try a shoulder rest. I'd never tried one before, it made a big difference straight away. But it changed the angle of the neck and so I had to change the angle of my hand. I'd sean people hold it the proper way, so I guess I just thought why not. My intonation was terrible for ages, but it did get better than before. Hard to tell whether it's because of the change, or just that I was playing a lot and listening.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddle technique
FROM A DEAR FRIEND WHO HAS HAD TO STOP PLAYING FOR EIGHT WEEKS WITH A HORRENDOUS CASE OF TENDONITIS:
"Yes, I have been picking apart my playing style quite a bit to pin down the problems and I have discovered two that I know for sure: I have to play fairly loud at my regular gigs, as they are not amplified at all. I find that when I apply pressure with my right arm, then I tense up with my left. (Although I have tendonitis in both forearms and elbows, the left is by far the worst.) Secondly, I get lazy and stop supporting my instrument with my chin and shoulder and let some of the weight shift to my left hand. (A BIG no no when I was growing up, but I no longer have teachers yelling at me in lessons, so I slack off.) In about 6 weeks, I will start playing again, very gradually, and I hope to iron out these bad habits. Plus stretching and regular breaks are a must now."
It’s the 21st century. There is nothing to be gained from poor posture, unless you too want to end up with crippling tendonitis by the time you’re 40.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddle technique
There are four main aspects to producing a big tone on the fiddle (leaving aside fiddle and bow set-up and choice of strings), and these are:
1. Where you bow on the string. Too far away from the bridge will give a quiet tone, but closer to the bridge will give a bigger and more brilliant sound. Too close to the bridge is for special FX only - either that or your name is Heifetz! The best all-round place for bowing is about half-way between the end of the standard-length fingerboard and the bridge.
2. Bow pressure. You don't want much more than the weight of the bow. Too much pressure in an attempt to get more volume will kill the tone, resulting in more pressure being applied, and yet more tone being killed. You'll need a little bit more pressure when playing close to the bridge in order to make the string respond, but when playing further away from the bridge, especially near the fingerboard, you'll need to reduce the pressure because the strings are so much slacker in this region.
3. Speed of bow. This is the main factor in producing a big tone. If you learn how to combine it with the right level of pressure and not to far from the bridge, then you've arrived. Don't make the mistake of trying to use too much bow when you're playing fast (as a lot of Irish music is); you run the real danger of losing control, and it looks terrible anyway. As an example I make no apology for bringing back our old friend - the video of John Shehan showing Andre Rieu what playing the Irish Washerwoman is all about, on http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l-JAP7Kf1cI. The faster the music went the more Rieu's bow went flailing all over the place, while John Shehan was using just a neat few inches of bow very efficiently at the same speed. I'm not revealing any great secret when I say that many amateur orchestral violinists, otherwise quite good, regularly make Rieu's mistake in fast playing, and have to be pulled up about it by the conductor during rehearsal.
4. Keep the bow parallel to the bridge as much as possible. If you don't then bowing energy is being wasted and some frictional noise is generated by the wrong angle of the bow instead of tone. If you have a relaxed and light bow hold you should find that the bow will tend to find its most efficient position on the string, and this is parallel to the bridge.
A relaxed right hand, wrist and fingers, the arm moving from the elbow downwards, virtually no movement from the upper arm, and not a single straight finger or thumb to be seen in the right hand, are fundamental to acquiring all of the above.
A useful exercise in getting bow control. Take a reel you know well and try to play it more or less up to speed but using ALL of the bow from the frog to the tip for EVERY note you're playing, no matter whether it's a quarter or eighth note. It's not all easy and sounds absolutely terrible - our local fox has been seen heading for the horizon at a rate of knots - so make sure the household is out of earshot; but it's a very effective exercise in technique.
# Posted on September 26th 2008 by lazyhound