I wanted to ask outright if anyone here is aware of or ascribes to the idea of independent fingering on the fiddle - that is, generally only leaving down the finger producing the note, and lifting up the fingers below. The most popular example is probably Seamus Connolly, who talks a lot about playing his rolls like that, one finger down at a time. I've been incorporating it into my playing but I was just wondering: anyone else out there who does it, and do we know if any of the oldies-n-goodies like Murphy or Morrison or Doherty might've done it as well?
I have heard that Dale Russ plays his rolls that way, i.e. one finger at a time.
But another very well-respected fiddler once told me that I will never get my second- and third-finger rolls to sound right until I learn to put two fingers down on the fingerboard together. I see the point of that, but I am still struggling with it--and I have not heard any complaints about Dale's rolls, either.
I came from classical playing so to the "flying fingers" approach is ingrained to me. It's probably better to keep the fingers down for rolls if you don't already have the habit of having one finger down.
It can be done either way, but it takes some good timing and fast fingers to keep one finger down, and there's not much of an advantage to doing it that way.
I've never really thought about it, but yeah, I only put the finger down I'm using. I suppose it would me more ergonomic not to do this, but I don't think it makes a difference. When not used, my fingers tend to stick up quite high, so I have to move them a greater distance to play the strings. I was once told that this was a waste of energy and efficiency, but I don't think that matters. I play my rolls with the flick of the finger across the string rather than the down and lift method, so a bit of a longer sweep is .. well ... more rolly. I feel it's more fluid that way, but comparing it by listening to people who do it the other way, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.
I think the main advantage of doing it this way from a classical perspective is that it frees up your hand for vibrato. At least I learned it under that rationale. I suspect that it's probably good for keeping the tension in your hand down, since it seems to invite squeezing less, but I could be wrong.
One important technical aspect, though, is that the fingers overlap somewhat. By that I mean that if I'm going from a G to an F# on the D string, I want to have my second finger on the string before I lift up the third. Likewise, if I'm going up from F# to G, I want to leave my second finger down until the third finger fully stops the string. This maintains a more continuous quality of sound. In classical music, this matters a great deal; in trad perhaps not. If it helps anyone, great; if not don't worry about it.
"I was once told that this was a waste of energy and efficiency, but I don't think that matters."
That was in the days when we thought coal seams reached all the way to th centre of the Earth. Those days are gone now, Michael. Efficiency is everything.
I do my rolls (and other fingerings) both ways, or either way. Kevin Burke taught me to put down two or more fingers at once, and to leave lower fingers down while playing on higher fingers, but circumstances led me to also try the other approach, and now I use whatever feels most natural at the moment. And that varies. But it all works just fine.
D t M: off topic, I heard your idol play live for the first time this weekend
and also had a chance to ask him a few questions in a workshop. He
was very proud of his green "crocs". Of course the playing was sublime.
I'm not out to imitate the guy but I am already under the influence!
Never really thought about it 'til now. I tried just now, and it seems that, in the middle of un-ornamented bits, I might, lazily, leave my fingers down, but when I'm ornamenting, the fingers come off the finger board. But not always, and ... I think ... the trick is never to have the 'lower' fingers *glued* to the fingerboard. Now that *would* be a waste of energy.
@ all: Hm. What mickray said intrigues me: "to get second- and third-finger rolls to *sound right*". I'm in Seamus' class here at BC (hence the new ideas here), and he played rolls for us with the independent fingering and without, and of course - they both sounded amazing! Maybe a lot of it is just what your definition of a good roll sound is, like Michael there finding a "more rolly" sound.
@ Hup: Ooh, there's a man to ask, hm? Pick up anything good in the workshop?
I recently played with a new friend for the first time, and when I asked if people were CoR fans (trying to find tunes in common, you know), she remarked, "Ah, THAT'S who you remind me of!" I was very excited ^_^
Dan - after writing this I remembered another thing that's actually relevant
to your thread. He said he picked up something Tommy Potts did with
rolls - while doing the roll, make a slight upward slide on the home note. I don't think he does this all the time.
When CoR demonstrated, it was a subtle effect. He cited Potts as a big
influence along with 'Star Above the Garter".
He also said he likes to give a bow accent in the middle of a roll to make it a little more percussive.
CoR also talked about
how intonation can affect style - how every fiddler has their own
intonation concept. He reckoned Donegal players push certain notes
slightly sharp and it helps them get a more aggressive sound. He
demonstrated the difference between his style of intonation and a
Donegal style.
He said he tries to make the bow strokes almost disappear, using
mostly speed and pressure to put in the pulse and accents.
He demonstrated how he has been experimenting with different tone
colours, partly by moving the bow contact point into various positions,
for example up over the finger board - and partly with speed and
pressure. (This is stuff that classical violinists do all the time)
He used some left hand pizzicatto during one of his concerts - that
was a surprise. When he did that he was sort of accompanying
Enda and Eithne for just 1 or 2 bars.
Lets see - what else? Used a baroque bow with Prim steel strings.
Well, a good roll should be clean and crisp, whether you do a really percussive roll (a la Kevin Burke) or a more open, notey roll (a la Seamus Connolly), regardless of whether your fingers come down one at a time or in pairs.
That's the thing with technique--often, it doesn't really matter *how* you get the sound you're after, as long as it's the right sound. (And doesn't hurt or lead to injury.)
Yes Will that point about injury is a good one. I once spent about 20
minutes experimenting with the diagonal flick method of rolls and was
sore for two days afterwards. That's obviously not something meant for
my anatomy or else I was too enthusiastic.
Well Hup, that raises another point: this music can be played at the highest level *without physical strain.*
Better to lift a tune up from the fiddle than grind it out of it, eh? The key to good rolls (besides letting the dough rise in a warm spot), is being relaxed and easy. The more years I play, the more I realize how much effort and energy I wasted. If I live to 90, I expect to play a rousing set of reels with no discernible movement on my part....
Fiddlers: independent fingering?
Fiddlers: independent fingering?
I wanted to ask outright if anyone here is aware of or ascribes to the idea of independent fingering on the fiddle - that is, generally only leaving down the finger producing the note, and lifting up the fingers below. The most popular example is probably Seamus Connolly, who talks a lot about playing his rolls like that, one finger down at a time. I've been incorporating it into my playing but I was just wondering: anyone else out there who does it, and do we know if any of the oldies-n-goodies like Murphy or Morrison or Doherty might've done it as well?
--DtM
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
I have heard that Dale Russ plays his rolls that way, i.e. one finger at a time.
But another very well-respected fiddler once told me that I will never get my second- and third-finger rolls to sound right until I learn to put two fingers down on the fingerboard together. I see the point of that, but I am still struggling with it--and I have not heard any complaints about Dale's rolls, either.
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by mickray
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
I came from classical playing so to the "flying fingers" approach is ingrained to me. It's probably better to keep the fingers down for rolls if you don't already have the habit of having one finger down.
It can be done either way, but it takes some good timing and fast fingers to keep one finger down, and there's not much of an advantage to doing it that way.
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by Marklar
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
I've never really thought about it, but yeah, I only put the finger down I'm using. I suppose it would me more ergonomic not to do this, but I don't think it makes a difference. When not used, my fingers tend to stick up quite high, so I have to move them a greater distance to play the strings. I was once told that this was a waste of energy and efficiency, but I don't think that matters. I play my rolls with the flick of the finger across the string rather than the down and lift method, so a bit of a longer sweep is .. well ... more rolly. I feel it's more fluid that way, but comparing it by listening to people who do it the other way, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference.
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
I think the main advantage of doing it this way from a classical perspective is that it frees up your hand for vibrato. At least I learned it under that rationale. I suspect that it's probably good for keeping the tension in your hand down, since it seems to invite squeezing less, but I could be wrong.
One important technical aspect, though, is that the fingers overlap somewhat. By that I mean that if I'm going from a G to an F# on the D string, I want to have my second finger on the string before I lift up the third. Likewise, if I'm going up from F# to G, I want to leave my second finger down until the third finger fully stops the string. This maintains a more continuous quality of sound. In classical music, this matters a great deal; in trad perhaps not. If it helps anyone, great; if not don't worry about it.
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by jasonb
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
"I was once told that this was a waste of energy and efficiency, but I don't think that matters."
That was in the days when we thought coal seams reached all the way to th centre of the Earth. Those days are gone now, Michael. Efficiency is everything.
# Posted on September 22nd 2008 by ragaman
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
I do my rolls (and other fingerings) both ways, or either way. Kevin Burke taught me to put down two or more fingers at once, and to leave lower fingers down while playing on higher fingers, but circumstances led me to also try the other approach, and now I use whatever feels most natural at the moment. And that varies. But it all works just fine.
# Posted on September 22nd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
D t M: off topic, I heard your idol play live for the first time this weekend
and also had a chance to ask him a few questions in a workshop. He
was very proud of his green "crocs". Of course the playing was sublime.
I'm not out to imitate the guy but I am already under the influence!
# Posted on September 22nd 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
Er, yeah ... what Will said ...
Never really thought about it 'til now. I tried just now, and it seems that, in the middle of un-ornamented bits, I might, lazily, leave my fingers down, but when I'm ornamenting, the fingers come off the finger board. But not always, and ... I think ... the trick is never to have the 'lower' fingers *glued* to the fingerboard. Now that *would* be a waste of energy.
# Posted on September 22nd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
@ all: Hm. What mickray said intrigues me: "to get second- and third-finger rolls to *sound right*". I'm in Seamus' class here at BC (hence the new ideas here), and he played rolls for us with the independent fingering and without, and of course - they both sounded amazing! Maybe a lot of it is just what your definition of a good roll sound is, like Michael there finding a "more rolly" sound.
@ Hup: Ooh, there's a man to ask, hm? Pick up anything good in the workshop?
I recently played with a new friend for the first time, and when I asked if people were CoR fans (trying to find tunes in common, you know), she remarked, "Ah, THAT'S who you remind me of!" I was very excited ^_^
--DtM
# Posted on September 22nd 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
Dan - after writing this I remembered another thing that's actually relevant
to your thread. He said he picked up something Tommy Potts did with
rolls - while doing the roll, make a slight upward slide on the home note. I don't think he does this all the time.
When CoR demonstrated, it was a subtle effect. He cited Potts as a big
influence along with 'Star Above the Garter".
He also said he likes to give a bow accent in the middle of a roll to make it a little more percussive.
CoR also talked about
how intonation can affect style - how every fiddler has their own
intonation concept. He reckoned Donegal players push certain notes
slightly sharp and it helps them get a more aggressive sound. He
demonstrated the difference between his style of intonation and a
Donegal style.
He said he tries to make the bow strokes almost disappear, using
mostly speed and pressure to put in the pulse and accents.
He demonstrated how he has been experimenting with different tone
colours, partly by moving the bow contact point into various positions,
for example up over the finger board - and partly with speed and
pressure. (This is stuff that classical violinists do all the time)
He used some left hand pizzicatto during one of his concerts - that
was a surprise. When he did that he was sort of accompanying
Enda and Eithne for just 1 or 2 bars.
Lets see - what else? Used a baroque bow with Prim steel strings.
OK, that's enough
# Posted on September 23rd 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
Well, a good roll should be clean and crisp, whether you do a really percussive roll (a la Kevin Burke) or a more open, notey roll (a la Seamus Connolly), regardless of whether your fingers come down one at a time or in pairs.
That's the thing with technique--often, it doesn't really matter *how* you get the sound you're after, as long as it's the right sound. (And doesn't hurt or lead to injury.)
# Posted on September 23rd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
Yes Will that point about injury is a good one. I once spent about 20
minutes experimenting with the diagonal flick method of rolls and was
sore for two days afterwards. That's obviously not something meant for
my anatomy or else I was too enthusiastic.
# Posted on September 23rd 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
Well Hup, that raises another point: this music can be played at the highest level *without physical strain.*
Better to lift a tune up from the fiddle than grind it out of it, eh? The key to good rolls (besides letting the dough rise in a warm spot), is being relaxed and easy. The more years I play, the more I realize how much effort and energy I wasted. If I live to 90, I expect to play a rousing set of reels with no discernible movement on my part....
# Posted on September 23rd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
Ha ha - well that's the general idea of how Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh plays.
# Posted on September 24th 2008 by Hup
Re: Fiddlers: independent fingering?
Unless your "cross bowing" a repetitive pattern, keep your fingers off the board. Mobility is everything.
# Posted on October 6th 2008 by hauke