It's a familiar situation: someone posts a tune without commenting; someone else suggests that it's a vanity tune [1] and a discussion ensues with sensible (and other) comments on either side.
In the case of a tune submitted today, "The Last Night In Doolin", Slainte viewed it and commented, "Hope it's not another self-composed tune." and no doubt a discussion will follow. My views on vanity tunes are here on record (see below), but I have come to the conclusion that the situation will not change, at least not in a hurry, so I'm not going to get too upset by it.
But while I know where Slainte is coming from, it does pose an interesting question: can't you tell whether it's another self-composed tune? If not, why not? In my work I encourage people to compose tunes, and to show them to me. The first few attempts almost always display what I call "first-tune-itis" - they have creativity, but tend not to conform to traditional forms. There are other subtle qualities which betray the fact that it's a recent composition.
Anyway, back to "Last Night In Doolin". A glance at the ABC suggested to me that it probably was a new composition. However, I found sound files of a tune by the same name on-line by an Italian Irish group called Irishields; was it the same tune? Indeed it is - a slow tune, quite pleasant. The ABC lets it down by misunderstanding the phrasing, in my opinion. It's a better tune than the ABC proposes. It was submitted by Michele Andreoli, a young Italian whistle player who can be heard on YouTube as well as the sole Irishields CD, 'Last Night in Doolin', and I suspect that it's his own composition.
So, was Slainte right to question the tune's right to be here? Possibly, possibly not - I don't really know, but I hope that an enthusiastic young musician is told the convention here in a polite and friendly way, rather that being roasted for the sins of his predecessors.
"So, was Slainte right to question the tune's right to be here?"
I would say no, he has no right at all. The only person who has that right IMO is the webmaster - it's his site. The tune police are just irritating muppets who think they have a better idea of what a tune should sound like that other folk.
That said, my own opinion is that folk shouldn't post their own compositions here. If it's good enough someone else might post it. Also, if it's ok to post a self penned tune for every 5 trad tunes then surely it would be better to put that info in the 'submit a tune' section rather than the FAQ. I can't imagine many people think of going to the FAQ section when they first start using this site. Just a thought.
Yes, it's a shame to see this great site littered with rubbish tunes but to me the most annoying thing is seeing new members treated with the rudeness and ignorance that you would rarely see at a real session, NEVER where I come from. Some folk here seem to think that THEIR idea of a good tune or THEIR idea of how the site should be run etc is the true way because they think they can play their instrument better or are more involved with trad than others here. 50,000 members.
In my opinion, Slainte's view on new compositions is not necessarily the correct one. It is very easy to compose a tune which sounds traditional, for example the compositions of Charlie Lennon or Paddy Fahey.
The second argument is about vanity. Despite never having posted any of my own compositions here, I think that a person deciding to share a tune of theirs with the rest of the trad community is a great thing.
We wouldn't check on the tunes section here if we didn't see tunes as something positive, and so does it matter how they get to us? And what's wrong with someone getting a "well done" for it? Would we all stand up and say we love Mozart but also say that it's not appropriate that he posts his music himself?! - that's an extreme example but you get the point! Also, from my experience of this site, there's never enough positive energy to make anyone vain!
Being someone who submits his own compositions every so often, I think "Vanity Tune" is a great description for these and entirely accurate. I intend to use it forthwith, headlining the comments something like as follows:
X X
X X X X
X X X X
!!! VANITY TUNE !!!
*********************
- but I had better find out how to use those emoticons first...
I hope it is another self-composed tune - where have all the others come from?
Lets allow our tradition to develop naturally and not stagnate - after all we allow foreigners to play our music - perhaps their native influences may harm our tradition as much as self-composed tunes?
Imagine if someone had stopped Reavey with these types of attitudes - we would be all the poorer for that.
BTW - I am delighted that foreigners play our music and would never suggest that they ought not to!
bogman, you have a point. But bear in mind that Jeremy himself invites us to comment on each tune--what we "like or dislike about it" (right next to the comment submission box). That's bound to encourage some folks to take pot shots at tunes they don't like. So it's built into the site's culture.
Also, Jeremy runs this site at least in part with us participants in mind. Yes, he's the benevolent dictator, but he routinely lets us members set the tone, decide what we want to talk about, and decide what sort of tunes we post here. He's fairly hands-off when you think about it.
I like seeing new, original tunes here. Sure, a few people have posted strings of their own godawful tunes, but they never seem to last long--the riotious, righteous slagging usually shuts them down (even better than the 5:1 rule). And when a new tune is a good'un, people are generous with their praise for it. That's a great way to introduce new tunes to our sessions far and wide.
I'd welcome a tab for new, original tunes, but I really don't mind them being in the core data base, either. Ten years down the road, someone might come looking for a tune, not realizing that in 2008 it was a "new" tune. It'd be easier if all the tunes were kept together as they are now.
P.S. "Last Night in Doolin" is an example not of a "bad
new tune, biut of poorly constructed ABCs. Another case where the poster could easily have gotten some guidance from any number of us here willing to help with such things.
The tune is fine. The notation could be better. That's a different problem than the one Nigel raises here.
To be honest no tunes bother me here, it's not as if it's a big hassle to read through them or not as the case may be. What does bother me are bad transcriptions. In a tradition where we learn most things by ear you can expect variation in versions but some tunes here have not been researched at all. Like someone picks a tune of the radio and submits it straight away. There are some tunes on here that are a shadow of their real selves through no fault of the tune
Nigel, I wish you hadn't mentioned me. That's nothing personal. I just did what someone has to do. I just thought leaving somewhat impolite comments was actually "politer" than ignoring the very existence of the tune without leaving any comment on it.
I think I have to clarify my intention and position. I am *not* against anyone posting his/her self-composed tunes on this site. I am *not* imposing my views of what good tunes sound like on others. I just want the other memebers of this site to consider the situation in which people keep posting their own compositions.
Sharing your own compositions with others is great. I actually did it a couple of times on this site. However, as Jeremy writes, The Session is not intended for that: http://www.thesession.org/members/index/faqs And we've seen too many recent compositions being submitted recently. Do you still think we need more self-composed tunes on this site? If so, is that because we are just too lazy to transcribe the old tunes which haven't been posted?
One thing that I'm not sure has been brought out is that there is a finite number of 'traditional' tunes. I think it was touched on when Feargal mentioned stagnation.
As all the old manuscripts are poured over, there will eventually be an end to all the new old 'traditional' tunes. Somehow the line that separates old from new has to move forward as we all move forward through time.
It's not very often that someone finds a new Mozart tune, though they have recently found another fragment in a western French library according to the local news!
slainte said, "Nigel, I wish you hadn't mentioned me. That's nothing personal..."
My mentioning you was nothing personal, but you were the one who left "somewhat impolite comments" which prompted my discussion. I don't like the practice of submitting self-composed tunes, but there's nothing we can do about it. Someone joins thesession.org, looks at the tune section; sees that one can submit a tune, thinks, "That one I wrote is pretty good, I'll submit that!" There is nothing in the process which says it's wrong or frowned on, until someone else rails at them in the comments. Even on the home page the only advice is, "If you have any questions about the site, try reading the Frequently Asked Questions." - not "Read the FAQ before submitting..."
You say, "Do you still think we need more self-composed tunes on this site? If so, is that because we are just too lazy to transcribe the old tunes which haven't been posted?"
If a new member doesn't know the convention, it's unfair to conclude that they're lazy, and it's unfair to blame them for being the umpteenth self-composed tune in a row.
Nigel, I think you're misunderstanding me. I never suggested new memebers are lazy. As I wrote, *we* (older members) have been lazy. IMO all the members of this site are responsible for keeping the ratio of old traditional tunes to recent compositions. Or, should we leave this difficult job to Jeremy?
As for the new members who post tunes, they obviously need some feedback. I still believe even negative comments are better than none.
Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
It's a familiar situation: someone posts a tune without commenting; someone else suggests that it's a vanity tune [1] and a discussion ensues with sensible (and other) comments on either side.
In the case of a tune submitted today, "The Last Night In Doolin", Slainte viewed it and commented, "Hope it's not another self-composed tune." and no doubt a discussion will follow. My views on vanity tunes are here on record (see below), but I have come to the conclusion that the situation will not change, at least not in a hurry, so I'm not going to get too upset by it.
But while I know where Slainte is coming from, it does pose an interesting question: can't you tell whether it's another self-composed tune? If not, why not? In my work I encourage people to compose tunes, and to show them to me. The first few attempts almost always display what I call "first-tune-itis" - they have creativity, but tend not to conform to traditional forms. There are other subtle qualities which betray the fact that it's a recent composition.
Anyway, back to "Last Night In Doolin". A glance at the ABC suggested to me that it probably was a new composition. However, I found sound files of a tune by the same name on-line by an Italian Irish group called Irishields; was it the same tune? Indeed it is - a slow tune, quite pleasant. The ABC lets it down by misunderstanding the phrasing, in my opinion. It's a better tune than the ABC proposes. It was submitted by Michele Andreoli, a young Italian whistle player who can be heard on YouTube as well as the sole Irishields CD, 'Last Night in Doolin', and I suspect that it's his own composition.
So, was Slainte right to question the tune's right to be here? Possibly, possibly not - I don't really know, but I hope that an enthusiastic young musician is told the convention here in a polite and friendly way, rather that being roasted for the sins of his predecessors.
[1] = I came up with this phrase half-jokingly, but it caused some excitement when it first appeared:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12697/comments#comment260613
# Posted on September 19th 2008 by nigelg
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
"So, was Slainte right to question the tune's right to be here?"
I would say no, he has no right at all. The only person who has that right IMO is the webmaster - it's his site. The tune police are just irritating muppets who think they have a better idea of what a tune should sound like that other folk.
That said, my own opinion is that folk shouldn't post their own compositions here. If it's good enough someone else might post it. Also, if it's ok to post a self penned tune for every 5 trad tunes then surely it would be better to put that info in the 'submit a tune' section rather than the FAQ. I can't imagine many people think of going to the FAQ section when they first start using this site. Just a thought.
Yes, it's a shame to see this great site littered with rubbish tunes but to me the most annoying thing is seeing new members treated with the rudeness and ignorance that you would rarely see at a real session, NEVER where I come from. Some folk here seem to think that THEIR idea of a good tune or THEIR idea of how the site should be run etc is the true way because they think they can play their instrument better or are more involved with trad than others here. 50,000 members.
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by Bogman
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
In my opinion, Slainte's view on new compositions is not necessarily the correct one. It is very easy to compose a tune which sounds traditional, for example the compositions of Charlie Lennon or Paddy Fahey.
The second argument is about vanity. Despite never having posted any of my own compositions here, I think that a person deciding to share a tune of theirs with the rest of the trad community is a great thing.
We wouldn't check on the tunes section here if we didn't see tunes as something positive, and so does it matter how they get to us? And what's wrong with someone getting a "well done" for it? Would we all stand up and say we love Mozart but also say that it's not appropriate that he posts his music himself?! - that's an extreme example but you get the point! Also, from my experience of this site, there's never enough positive energy to make anyone vain!
My pennys worth!
Martin
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by martin t
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
Being someone who submits his own compositions every so often, I think "Vanity Tune" is a great description for these and entirely accurate. I intend to use it forthwith, headlining the comments something like as follows:
X X
X X X X
X X X X
!!! VANITY TUNE !!!
*********************
- but I had better find out how to use those emoticons first...
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
Hmm, it's tidied up my arrangement...
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
I hope it is another self-composed tune - where have all the others come from?
Lets allow our tradition to develop naturally and not stagnate - after all we allow foreigners to play our music - perhaps their native influences may harm our tradition as much as self-composed tunes?
Imagine if someone had stopped Reavey with these types of attitudes - we would be all the poorer for that.
BTW - I am delighted that foreigners play our music and would never suggest that they ought not to!
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by Feargal French
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
bogman, you have a point. But bear in mind that Jeremy himself invites us to comment on each tune--what we "like or dislike about it" (right next to the comment submission box). That's bound to encourage some folks to take pot shots at tunes they don't like. So it's built into the site's culture.
Also, Jeremy runs this site at least in part with us participants in mind. Yes, he's the benevolent dictator, but he routinely lets us members set the tone, decide what we want to talk about, and decide what sort of tunes we post here. He's fairly hands-off when you think about it.
I like seeing new, original tunes here. Sure, a few people have posted strings of their own godawful tunes, but they never seem to last long--the riotious, righteous slagging usually shuts them down (even better than the 5:1 rule). And when a new tune is a good'un, people are generous with their praise for it. That's a great way to introduce new tunes to our sessions far and wide.
I'd welcome a tab for new, original tunes, but I really don't mind them being in the core data base, either. Ten years down the road, someone might come looking for a tune, not realizing that in 2008 it was a "new" tune. It'd be easier if all the tunes were kept together as they are now.
My 2 cents.
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
P.S. "Last Night in Doolin" is an example not of a "bad
new tune, biut of poorly constructed ABCs. Another case where the poster could easily have gotten some guidance from any number of us here willing to help with such things.
The tune is fine. The notation could be better. That's a different problem than the one Nigel raises here.
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
To be honest no tunes bother me here, it's not as if it's a big hassle to read through them or not as the case may be. What does bother me are bad transcriptions. In a tradition where we learn most things by ear you can expect variation in versions but some tunes here have not been researched at all. Like someone picks a tune of the radio and submits it straight away. There are some tunes on here that are a shadow of their real selves through no fault of the tune
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by Bogman
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
Nigel, I wish you hadn't mentioned me. That's nothing personal. I just did what someone has to do. I just thought leaving somewhat impolite comments was actually "politer" than ignoring the very existence of the tune without leaving any comment on it.
I think I have to clarify my intention and position. I am *not* against anyone posting his/her self-composed tunes on this site. I am *not* imposing my views of what good tunes sound like on others. I just want the other memebers of this site to consider the situation in which people keep posting their own compositions.
Sharing your own compositions with others is great. I actually did it a couple of times on this site. However, as Jeremy writes, The Session is not intended for that: http://www.thesession.org/members/index/faqs And we've seen too many recent compositions being submitted recently. Do you still think we need more self-composed tunes on this site? If so, is that because we are just too lazy to transcribe the old tunes which haven't been posted?
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by slainte
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
One thing that I'm not sure has been brought out is that there is a finite number of 'traditional' tunes. I think it was touched on when Feargal mentioned stagnation.
As all the old manuscripts are poured over, there will eventually be an end to all the new old 'traditional' tunes. Somehow the line that separates old from new has to move forward as we all move forward through time.
It's not very often that someone finds a new Mozart tune, though they have recently found another fragment in a western French library according to the local news!
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by mrkelahan
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
Please try not to pour over the old manuscripts. That makes the ink run, which makes it so much harder to pore over them.
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
Who knows, if we warm the old MSS over a fire, the invisible ink will show up and for the first time ever we'll see the REAL tunes..!
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
slainte said, "Nigel, I wish you hadn't mentioned me. That's nothing personal..."
My mentioning you was nothing personal, but you were the one who left "somewhat impolite comments" which prompted my discussion. I don't like the practice of submitting self-composed tunes, but there's nothing we can do about it. Someone joins thesession.org, looks at the tune section; sees that one can submit a tune, thinks, "That one I wrote is pretty good, I'll submit that!" There is nothing in the process which says it's wrong or frowned on, until someone else rails at them in the comments. Even on the home page the only advice is, "If you have any questions about the site, try reading the Frequently Asked Questions." - not "Read the FAQ before submitting..."
You say, "Do you still think we need more self-composed tunes on this site? If so, is that because we are just too lazy to transcribe the old tunes which haven't been posted?"
If a new member doesn't know the convention, it's unfair to conclude that they're lazy, and it's unfair to blame them for being the umpteenth self-composed tune in a row.
# Posted on September 22nd 2008 by nigelg
Re: Slainte and "The Last Night In Doolin"
Nigel, I think you're misunderstanding me. I never suggested new memebers are lazy. As I wrote, *we* (older members) have been lazy. IMO all the members of this site are responsible for keeping the ratio of old traditional tunes to recent compositions. Or, should we leave this difficult job to Jeremy?
As for the new members who post tunes, they obviously need some feedback. I still believe even negative comments are better than none.
# Posted on September 22nd 2008 by slainte