This is for all who provide backing in Irish sessions;
Do you?
- always play chords
- usually back but play melody on some tunes
- combine chords & melody
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody.
Finding chords is
- a walk in the park
- not as easy as it looks
If there's a bodhran in the session do you
-work with the bodhran player
-ignore them completely and hope they go away.
Actually this is a serious question. It works better in my view if the rhythm section enjoys playing together.
Sorry clogstepping.
I enjoy Irish melodies. So I try to bring the rhythm out through the melody (& phrasing). I love lots of melody. So maybe it is not fair for me to ask about backing.
Having said that I believe you are asking a good question.
Ask away.
I like to play the melody rhythms sometimes - but sometimes I just like to sit right underneath, providing a steady but gentle rhythm, and let the melodies soar away. It's the only thing to do when the really good fiddlers are on a roll.
clogstepping you are a wonderful soul. I trust you have similar considerations for the good flute players.
I wouldn't mind hearing from some backers in Michael's session. Irish harmonies ~ childsplay?
This is for all who provide backing in Irish sessions;
Do you?
- always play chords
no
- usually back but play melody on some tunes
Yes
- combine chords & melody
Yes
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody.
No... I am a melody player first and foremost.
Finding chords is:
Depends on the tune... but mostly a walk in the park.
Clogstepping:
-If there's a bodhran in the session what do you do?
Depends on the bohdran player
Always play chords?
I've been working on leads to tunes fairly seriously for the last year, figured it would eventually help my backing, but when not playing a tune I know the lead to, then I stick to chords.
- usually back but play melody on some tunes?
Yes.
- combine chords & melody?
It would be nice to have that capability.
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody?
As much work as working out melodies is, as difficult as it is to play up to speed, and as much as I enjoy playing melodies, I still think backing well, with variety, taste, subtlety etc is very challenging and even more worth while. A guitar playing melody at a session can contribute, but often is lost in the overall sound, and besides, almost everyone else is playing the melody, but very few other instruments have the capability to back like a guitar, IMO.
Finding chords is
- a walk in the park?
Depends on the park. Finding the right chord, and acceptable substitutes and different voicings, is work. I can generally figure out chords to a new tune after a few times through, but there are some tunes and some chords which are ambiguous and take a lot of listening and trial/error.
This is for all who provide backing in Irish sessions;
I can't get to any sessions right now, but I'll answer anyway.
Do you?
- always play chords
With my guitar, yes
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody.
On mandolin melody is a walk in the park. Though playing up to speed is a challenge.
Finding chords is
- not as easy as it looks... and neither is playing the bodhran really well.
As a newcomer to ITM and octave mandolin I try to play melody (and I spend most of my practice time trying to learn tunes) because it's much more satisfying than playing a fairly limited set of chords in a limited set of keys/modes. Also we have a couple of very good guitar backers in my local session - they do a far better job than I could - so best sometimes to shoulder arms and listen if I don't know the tune.
On the other hand, one of the advantages of playing the OM is that if I don't know the tune, I can often still join in laying down some chords. And the same if I do know the tune and the flutes and fiddles set off at warp speed - that can be v. annoying, especially when I've put in a lot of effort learning a tune and am looking forward to joining in with it.
But perhaps the most satisfying of all is when melody and chords can be combined, for example by overlaying the tune with the occasional chord or substituting a chord progression for a short phrase as a variation. Only some tunes lend themselves to this treatment - at least for me and my current level of ability.
There's no benchmark, merely a comparison to the rest of the world's music. Harmonically, diddley music is very simple. As is the case rhythmically on the macro level also.
And it's unfortunate that these two facts are responsible not only for the vast majority of people who "have a go" (including, no doubt, 49,750, at least, of the people registered here), but also for the entire growth of that particular brand of session culture which dictates that, if you don't know the tune, you can still join in.
"There's no benchmark, merely a comparison to the rest of the world's music. Harmonically, diddley music is very simple."
What is 'the rest of the world's music' that is so harmonically complex? Western classical music and jazz and their derivatives can be harmonically complex. But I am not aware of other musical traditions/genres (that is not to say they don't exist - enlighten me) with such highly developed systems of harmony. Highly complex in other ways, yes, but not harmonically.
No but yeah but no but yeah but no but yeah no but yeah but no because I’m not even going on the pill because Nadine reckons they stop you from getting pregnant.
- usually back but play melody on some tunes
Yeah but Louise Farren emptied a whole bottle of Fanta into Shannon’s bag but anyway Luke reckons he fingered Emma Bateman in the language lab.
- combine chords & melody
No, but yeah, but no, because if you don't let me in then Blazin' Squad are well, gonna give you beatings because I've actually already met them already anyway, actually, down at the Radio 1 Roadshow at Weston Super-Mare!
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody.
No because what happened was was I was going round Karl’s but then this whole fing happened because Shelley Todd who’s a bitch anyway has been completely going around saying that Destiny stole money out of Rochelle’s purse but I ain’t never not even spoken to Rochelle ‘cause she flicked ash into Michaela’s hair.
Finding chords is
- a walk in the park
No, but, yeah, but, no, but, yeah, but, no, but, yeah but I know because I'm not wasting police time because you know Micha? Well, she saw the whole thing, right, because she was bunking off school because she was gonna go down the wimbley and get off with Luke Griffiths, only she never because he's been trying to grow a moustache but it just looks like pubes, so she got off with Luke Torbet instead, only don't tell Bethany that because she's fancied Luke Torbet ever since she flashed her fanny at him during Home Ec'
- not as easy as it looks
No because what happened was was this whole fing happened what I don’t even know nuffin about because Ashley Cramer has been going around saying that Samantha’s brother smells of mud but anyway shut up I ain’t never even stole no car so shut up.
"you can't get any simpler than "No harmony required, thanks!""
Except that people *do* play chords. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. If it were that easy, it would nearly always work. The reason it is difficult is precisely *because* (most of*) the tunes were composed without any preconception of a harmonic structure, so the backer has to find a harmony that has a 'flow' of its own, whilst not going against the inherent flow of the melody. Some tunes are easy to back, no doubt. But there will always be tunes with challenging twists - and tunes that just seem to defy harmonisation (...which are perhaps best left unharmonised).
*Some contemporary traditional tune composers, *do*, I think have a preconceived harmonic structure in their tunes. Charlie Lennon is one who springs to mind.
I thought the survey was a simple few questions asked to "all who provide backing in Irish sessions". Why do some people keep having to troll into these things with their own bigoted view of what trad music is? The survey is clearly directed to guitar and mandolin backing players!
I like good guitar backing. I play a lot of mandolin, but chord backing on mandolin doesn't really work for this music, though I'm unbigoted enough to stand contradiction!
Fair point, lilies. Sometimes you have something to say and you have to say it. I don't think I've been called 'bigoted' before - I must be getting old.
Haha ragaman, I suppose 'bigoted' was a bit strong. Your comments have at least something to do with the subject and contributing to discussion. Sorry I posted just after you, I wasn't referring to you with that. I was annoyed at someone else earlier in the thread! It was llig leahcim's comments that really got up my nose.
I wish I had a nickel for every time I've read someone complaining about Llig's comments.
You all must understand, the grumpy, antagonistic crank in the back of the pub is a vital part of the living tradition. You need your happy social director types, your life of the party types, your “I’m a very serious musician and don’t have time to smile” types, the dance evangelist (paging Mr. Ceolachan to the white courtesy phone…) and then, my personal favorite, simply for wisdom and color, would be the grumpy, antagonistic crank in the back of the pub archetype.
All of these things are vital to the living tradition.
i dont no whay people are giving out about lligs comments! they are true. rythmicall the music is simple, its dance music originally. this rythm makes it sound simple but its attractive so loads of people 'have a go' at learning it to find that its not as easy to learn or play properly as it sounds. it is simple but like anything it takes time to learn.
but the wonderful thing is , you can make the melody or harmony as complicated as you like, thats th eonly part id disagree with llig on. listen to alec finns backing, brilliant backing for apparantly simple music. but far from merely accompanying a tune he transcends that, adding completely new harmonies, alternate melodies interlinking with the tune and using counterpoint rythm and backwards picking. it is made up on the spot, not rehearsed, only gained through understanding of the music and years of playing to come to a certain way of thinking about a tune. so the music can be as simple or as complicated as you make it, it depends on the player.
Check out llig leahcim's 1st post. It is very good ( & concise).
Interesting though, because he is direct that is the sort of thing which may agitate others. Then they get cranky & so on & so forth. This is just the thing SWFL's saying.
Thamks all.
Me, I am not a backer. Only melody,Below are a few things I love to hear in Irish Traditional Music,
Wonderful melody ~ so much so that when I hear 2* (sometimes 3) players; on different instruments but with similar styles, it almost sounds as one instrument. This is of course with the best Irish musicians.
Another thing about really good tunes ~ they can stand alone, without the need for backing, chords, harmonies. Then the melody is essential & any harmony ~ simple (childsplay at times)**
Finally I like a good backer.
*trying to think of players who play together so well I'd have to think. Perhaps . . .
Donal Luny & Matt Molloy
Cillian & Niall Vallelly
Sharon Shannon & Michael McGoldrick (who is the fiddler on 'Tunes' CD?)
** keep in mnd this is for dance tunes &/or in session. When Liz & John are playing . . .well It is Liz & John!
I almost always just play chords and a bass line. I almost never play melody. With the bass line, I try not to play too much lower than the bottom string on a standard six-string guitar no matter how the guitar is tuned.
If the bodhran player knows what he or she is doing, I try to work with their beat. If the bodhranista doesn't know what they are doing, I do my best to ignore them.
Since I had some music theory training and a lot of hands-on, practical experience accompanying other musicians by ear before the local session started in 1995, figuring out the key and the chords is fairly easy for me.
Jim Donoghue's ~ Thanks ragaman
Not sure why I asked since Matt takes time to name the tunes. Besides which, I have listened to it every day for the past week. It leads off the 1st set of reels on the "Tunes" CD
ITM is simple in the same way that DNA is "simple". I believe many of the tunes were old before keyed and fretted instruments existed, so we can think of chords as a late development.
As a mandolin player, I get to listen to a lot of guitar accompaniment and have heard many variations and combinations of rhythm, chord and melody. What I like to say to guitarists new to the tradition is to learn the melody first. Chords are like sauce or dressing, not the meal itself. Some dishes are good with no dressing, others can stand a bit. Just don't overdo it.
There are some great guitarists doing very sophisticated backing but that doesn't mean that everyone should try that. Some players like to have backing when they play, but simple and sparse can be effective enough.
Usually back?
No I develop parallel guitar parts of equal importance to the
outcome.
Combine chords and melody ?
Of course. But sometimes more can be acheived by playing
polyphonically in two part harmony than whole chords.
Used to back in the day etc.
I've always played the same way.
Finding chords is not easy for for me. Some choices, although
basically harmonically correct, just make me want to scream
the way they sound in a tune. Finding a meaningful and appropriate chord, voicing and / or bass line/ or melody is a big challenge. I would say that I could lug the changes in a jazz standard easier than come up with a backing for a tune that I didn't know. One that made me happy anyway. I like to know the tune first and try to come up with something special to my ears, and hopefully the punters. I can't believe people say its a walk in the park.
When I hear a tune, for the 1st time it is easier to learn if no one plays backing chords. At least full chords with a strong downbeat.
The 'full' backing seems to effect the rhythm &/or phrasing; of the lead melody. This is usually just the 1st time through ~ when I am getting the tune in my head.
Now to confound things I have to say . . . if someone is playing a simple harmony or the bodhran has a simple beat * I can still get the tune in my head. Once I know the tune full chords are not the least distracting. I believe I just need to hear some nice phrasing. If you can do that with guitar chords ~ fantastic!
My theory is the tunes do not all sound the same. Each one has its own melody, phrasing (which you can vary), & rhythm (or perhaps a sub - rhythm ~ like a lilt or 'swing').
But chords overlap (more than melody). So if you completely remove the melody, leaving only chords, yes they do all begin to sound the same (at least in my minds' ear).
That is my 2 cents a few times over. I hope it made a little bit of things. & thanks to anyone who reads this comment.
* I do not play bodhran. I know the type of beat when it is played. I just do not know what to call it.
Dave I like your 'simple' like DNA . . .
I did a bit of editing before posting the above comment.
I'll paraphrase. I am not a backer & can only offer the perspective of a melody player. When I hear a tune it is
- lead melody
- phrasing
- rhythm
these 3 closely related
Secondly
- simple harmony
- variation(s)
& Finally
- the sky is the limit for a tune once everyone in the session knows it intimately.
Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
This is for all who provide backing in Irish sessions;
Do you?
- always play chords
- usually back but play melody on some tunes
- combine chords & melody
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody.
Finding chords is
- a walk in the park
- not as easy as it looks
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Finding the RIGHT chords is not, always, as easy.
But I'm a 'zouk player for sessions, and, yes, I do all of the above.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
If there's a bodhran in the session do you
-work with the bodhran player
-ignore them completely and hope they go away.
Actually this is a serious question. It works better in my view if the rhythm section enjoys playing together.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
No one ever goes away because you ignore them.
They just beat it.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody.
Harmonically, the music is very very simple. Childsplay
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Ouch. I'm grappling with hornpipe and polka rhythms at the moment. I'll be looking for a lead from the zouk player.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Sorry clogstepping.
I enjoy Irish melodies. So I try to bring the rhythm out through the melody (& phrasing). I love lots of melody. So maybe it is not fair for me to ask about backing.
Having said that I believe you are asking a good question.
Ask away.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
I like to play the melody rhythms sometimes - but sometimes I just like to sit right underneath, providing a steady but gentle rhythm, and let the melodies soar away. It's the only thing to do when the really good fiddlers are on a roll.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
clogstepping you are a wonderful soul. I trust you have similar considerations for the good flute players.
I wouldn't mind hearing from some backers in Michael's session. Irish harmonies ~ childsplay?
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Why thankyou RN. Flute players too. I'd be interested to know what Michael is using as his benchmark. Harmonically speaking.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by clogstepping
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
This is for all who provide backing in Irish sessions;
Do you?
- always play chords
NO
- usually back but play melody on some tunes
YES
- combine chords & melody
YES
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody.
NO
Finding chords is
- a walk in the park
YES
- not as easy as it looks
YES
Can my responses be any more vain? I guess you think this post is about me, don't you?
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Eliot
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
This is for all who provide backing in Irish sessions;
Do you?
- always play chords
no
- usually back but play melody on some tunes
Yes
- combine chords & melody
Yes
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody.
No... I am a melody player first and foremost.
Finding chords is:
Depends on the tune... but mostly a walk in the park.
Clogstepping:
-If there's a bodhran in the session what do you do?
Depends on the bohdran player
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by davydd
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Always play chords?
I've been working on leads to tunes fairly seriously for the last year, figured it would eventually help my backing, but when not playing a tune I know the lead to, then I stick to chords.
- usually back but play melody on some tunes?
Yes.
- combine chords & melody?
It would be nice to have that capability.
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody?
As much work as working out melodies is, as difficult as it is to play up to speed, and as much as I enjoy playing melodies, I still think backing well, with variety, taste, subtlety etc is very challenging and even more worth while. A guitar playing melody at a session can contribute, but often is lost in the overall sound, and besides, almost everyone else is playing the melody, but very few other instruments have the capability to back like a guitar, IMO.
Finding chords is
- a walk in the park?
Depends on the park. Finding the right chord, and acceptable substitutes and different voicings, is work. I can generally figure out chords to a new tune after a few times through, but there are some tunes and some chords which are ambiguous and take a lot of listening and trial/error.
- not as easy as it looks?
Easy? It LOOKS easy?
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by ayedbl
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
This is for all who provide backing in Irish sessions;
I can't get to any sessions right now, but I'll answer anyway.
Do you?
- always play chords
With my guitar, yes
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody.
On mandolin melody is a walk in the park. Though playing up to speed is a challenge.
Finding chords is
- not as easy as it looks... and neither is playing the bodhran really well.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
As a newcomer to ITM and octave mandolin I try to play melody (and I spend most of my practice time trying to learn tunes) because it's much more satisfying than playing a fairly limited set of chords in a limited set of keys/modes. Also we have a couple of very good guitar backers in my local session - they do a far better job than I could - so best sometimes to shoulder arms and listen if I don't know the tune.
On the other hand, one of the advantages of playing the OM is that if I don't know the tune, I can often still join in laying down some chords. And the same if I do know the tune and the flutes and fiddles set off at warp speed - that can be v. annoying, especially when I've put in a lot of effort learning a tune and am looking forward to joining in with it.
But perhaps the most satisfying of all is when melody and chords can be combined, for example by overlaying the tune with the occasional chord or substituting a chord progression for a short phrase as a variation. Only some tunes lend themselves to this treatment - at least for me and my current level of ability.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Lissagriffin
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
There's no benchmark, merely a comparison to the rest of the world's music. Harmonically, diddley music is very simple. As is the case rhythmically on the macro level also.
And it's unfortunate that these two facts are responsible not only for the vast majority of people who "have a go" (including, no doubt, 49,750, at least, of the people registered here), but also for the entire growth of that particular brand of session culture which dictates that, if you don't know the tune, you can still join in.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
"There's no benchmark, merely a comparison to the rest of the world's music. Harmonically, diddley music is very simple."
What is 'the rest of the world's music' that is so harmonically complex? Western classical music and jazz and their derivatives can be harmonically complex. But I am not aware of other musical traditions/genres (that is not to say they don't exist - enlighten me) with such highly developed systems of harmony. Highly complex in other ways, yes, but not harmonically.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Do you?
- always play chords
No but yeah but no but yeah but no but yeah no but yeah but no because I’m not even going on the pill because Nadine reckons they stop you from getting pregnant.
- usually back but play melody on some tunes
Yeah but Louise Farren emptied a whole bottle of Fanta into Shannon’s bag but anyway Luke reckons he fingered Emma Bateman in the language lab.
- combine chords & melody
No, but yeah, but no, because if you don't let me in then Blazin' Squad are well, gonna give you beatings because I've actually already met them already anyway, actually, down at the Radio 1 Roadshow at Weston Super-Mare!
- used to back, back in the day, but now it is all about the melody.
No because what happened was was I was going round Karl’s but then this whole fing happened because Shelley Todd who’s a bitch anyway has been completely going around saying that Destiny stole money out of Rochelle’s purse but I ain’t never not even spoken to Rochelle ‘cause she flicked ash into Michaela’s hair.
Finding chords is
- a walk in the park
No, but, yeah, but, no, but, yeah, but, no, but, yeah but I know because I'm not wasting police time because you know Micha? Well, she saw the whole thing, right, because she was bunking off school because she was gonna go down the wimbley and get off with Luke Griffiths, only she never because he's been trying to grow a moustache but it just looks like pubes, so she got off with Luke Torbet instead, only don't tell Bethany that because she's fancied Luke Torbet ever since she flashed her fanny at him during Home Ec'
- not as easy as it looks
No because what happened was was this whole fing happened what I don’t even know nuffin about because Ashley Cramer has been going around saying that Samantha’s brother smells of mud but anyway shut up I ain’t never even stole no car so shut up.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Fiddlebabe
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
"Harmonically, diddley music is very simple" says llig, correctly of course, because you can't get any simpler than "No harmony required, thanks!"
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
"you can't get any simpler than "No harmony required, thanks!""
Except that people *do* play chords. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. If it were that easy, it would nearly always work. The reason it is difficult is precisely *because* (most of*) the tunes were composed without any preconception of a harmonic structure, so the backer has to find a harmony that has a 'flow' of its own, whilst not going against the inherent flow of the melody. Some tunes are easy to back, no doubt. But there will always be tunes with challenging twists - and tunes that just seem to defy harmonisation (...which are perhaps best left unharmonised).
*Some contemporary traditional tune composers, *do*, I think have a preconceived harmonic structure in their tunes. Charlie Lennon is one who springs to mind.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
"...sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't."
Put another way: Sometimes it sounds brilliant, sometimes it sounds appalling.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
I thought the survey was a simple few questions asked to "all who provide backing in Irish sessions". Why do some people keep having to troll into these things with their own bigoted view of what trad music is? The survey is clearly directed to guitar and mandolin backing players!
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by amongthelilies
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
I like good guitar backing. I play a lot of mandolin, but chord backing on mandolin doesn't really work for this music, though I'm unbigoted enough to stand contradiction!
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Fair point, lilies. Sometimes you have something to say and you have to say it. I don't think I've been called 'bigoted' before - I must be getting old.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Learn the tunes. It's all in the tunes.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Haha ragaman, I suppose 'bigoted' was a bit strong. Your comments have at least something to do with the subject and contributing to discussion. Sorry I posted just after you, I wasn't referring to you with that. I was annoyed at someone else earlier in the thread! It was llig leahcim's comments that really got up my nose.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by amongthelilies
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
I wish I had a nickel for every time I've read someone complaining about Llig's comments.
You all must understand, the grumpy, antagonistic crank in the back of the pub is a vital part of the living tradition. You need your happy social director types, your life of the party types, your “I’m a very serious musician and don’t have time to smile” types, the dance evangelist (paging Mr. Ceolachan to the white courtesy phone…) and then, my personal favorite, simply for wisdom and color, would be the grumpy, antagonistic crank in the back of the pub archetype.
All of these things are vital to the living tradition.
Now where’s me flippin’ nickels?
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
"It was llig leahcim's comments that really got up my nose."
Mine too. They do that. He seems to have a thing about noses.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
"It was llig leahcim's comments that really got up my nose."
Pull em out with a pair of tweezers.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
combine chords & melody (chicks dig it)
and
a walk in the park (but that walk can be in Central Park at 3:27 a.m. if one is feeling one's oats and one enjoys tweaking the ossified prigs)
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
i dont no whay people are giving out about lligs comments! they are true. rythmicall the music is simple, its dance music originally. this rythm makes it sound simple but its attractive so loads of people 'have a go' at learning it to find that its not as easy to learn or play properly as it sounds. it is simple but like anything it takes time to learn.
but the wonderful thing is , you can make the melody or harmony as complicated as you like, thats th eonly part id disagree with llig on. listen to alec finns backing, brilliant backing for apparantly simple music. but far from merely accompanying a tune he transcends that, adding completely new harmonies, alternate melodies interlinking with the tune and using counterpoint rythm and backwards picking. it is made up on the spot, not rehearsed, only gained through understanding of the music and years of playing to come to a certain way of thinking about a tune. so the music can be as simple or as complicated as you make it, it depends on the player.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Check out llig leahcim's 1st post. It is very good ( & concise).
Interesting though, because he is direct that is the sort of thing which may agitate others. Then they get cranky & so on & so forth. This is just the thing SWFL's saying.
Thamks all.
Me, I am not a backer. Only melody,Below are a few things I love to hear in Irish Traditional Music,
Wonderful melody ~ so much so that when I hear 2* (sometimes 3) players; on different instruments but with similar styles, it almost sounds as one instrument. This is of course with the best Irish musicians.
Another thing about really good tunes ~ they can stand alone, without the need for backing, chords, harmonies. Then the melody is essential & any harmony ~ simple (childsplay at times)**
Finally I like a good backer.
*trying to think of players who play together so well I'd have to think. Perhaps . . .
Donal Luny & Matt Molloy
Cillian & Niall Vallelly
Sharon Shannon & Michael McGoldrick (who is the fiddler on 'Tunes' CD?)
** keep in mnd this is for dance tunes &/or in session. When Liz & John are playing . . .well It is Liz & John!
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
I almost always just play chords and a bass line. I almost never play melody. With the bass line, I try not to play too much lower than the bottom string on a standard six-string guitar no matter how the guitar is tuned.
If the bodhran player knows what he or she is doing, I try to work with their beat. If the bodhranista doesn't know what they are doing, I do my best to ignore them.
Since I had some music theory training and a lot of hands-on, practical experience accompanying other musicians by ear before the local session started in 1995, figuring out the key and the chords is fairly easy for me.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Matt Molloy on 'The Session' - LIVE - 1987
How do you like this backing? On the 1st set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RPRVI0pWFg
What is the reel between The Independence & Gravel Walk?
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Lovely backing, Random. But the fact that McGlynn and Lunny make it look and sound like childsplay doesn't mean it is.
The reel in the middle is Jim Donoghue's - Matt Molloy says so in the introduction. http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2536
# Posted on September 19th 2008 by ragaman
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Have a listen to anything with Alec Finn on.
# Posted on September 19th 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Didn't mean any offence to anyone by the way
That video is great
# Posted on September 19th 2008 by amongthelilies
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
Jim Donoghue's ~ Thanks ragaman
Not sure why I asked since Matt takes time to name the tunes. Besides which, I have listened to it every day for the past week. It leads off the 1st set of reels on the "Tunes" CD
Jim Donoghue's
The Cappataggle Shuffle
The Abbey
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
ITM is simple in the same way that DNA is "simple". I believe many of the tunes were old before keyed and fretted instruments existed, so we can think of chords as a late development.
As a mandolin player, I get to listen to a lot of guitar accompaniment and have heard many variations and combinations of rhythm, chord and melody. What I like to say to guitarists new to the tradition is to learn the melody first. Chords are like sauce or dressing, not the meal itself. Some dishes are good with no dressing, others can stand a bit. Just don't overdo it.
# Posted on September 20th 2008 by Dave McGrath
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
'learn the melody first.' I like that Dave. Hopefully the not so newcomers are listening to the melody as well
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
There are some great guitarists doing very sophisticated backing but that doesn't mean that everyone should try that. Some players like to have backing when they play, but simple and sparse can be effective enough.
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by Bren
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
always play chords?
No, I develop motifs.
Usually back?
No I develop parallel guitar parts of equal importance to the
outcome.
Combine chords and melody ?
Of course. But sometimes more can be acheived by playing
polyphonically in two part harmony than whole chords.
Used to back in the day etc.
I've always played the same way.
Finding chords is not easy for for me. Some choices, although
basically harmonically correct, just make me want to scream
the way they sound in a tune. Finding a meaningful and appropriate chord, voicing and / or bass line/ or melody is a big challenge. I would say that I could lug the changes in a jazz standard easier than come up with a backing for a tune that I didn't know. One that made me happy anyway. I like to know the tune first and try to come up with something special to my ears, and hopefully the punters. I can't believe people say its a walk in the park.
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Mandolin/Guitar backers survey
When I hear a tune, for the 1st time it is easier to learn if no one plays backing chords. At least full chords with a strong downbeat.
The 'full' backing seems to effect the rhythm &/or phrasing; of the lead melody. This is usually just the 1st time through ~ when I am getting the tune in my head.
Now to confound things I have to say . . . if someone is playing a simple harmony or the bodhran has a simple beat * I can still get the tune in my head. Once I know the tune full chords are not the least distracting. I believe I just need to hear some nice phrasing. If you can do that with guitar chords ~ fantastic!
My theory is the tunes do not all sound the same. Each one has its own melody, phrasing (which you can vary), & rhythm (or perhaps a sub - rhythm ~ like a lilt or 'swing').
But chords overlap (more than melody). So if you completely remove the melody, leaving only chords, yes they do all begin to sound the same (at least in my minds' ear).
That is my 2 cents a few times over. I hope it made a little bit of things. & thanks to anyone who reads this comment.
* I do not play bodhran. I know the type of beat when it is played. I just do not know what to call it.
Dave I like your 'simple' like DNA . . .
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by Random_notes
*
I did a bit of editing before posting the above comment.
I'll paraphrase. I am not a backer & can only offer the perspective of a melody player. When I hear a tune it is
- lead melody
- phrasing
- rhythm
these 3 closely related
Secondly
- simple harmony
- variation(s)
& Finally
- the sky is the limit for a tune once everyone in the session knows it intimately.
# Posted on September 21st 2008 by Random_notes