Im thinking of buying a cheap fiddle out of an auction there is no sticker or date in graved into the instruments but they look very old.....
is there any way telling aprox how old the instrument are without going to a fiddle maker????
anyone know any good sites for info on repairing fiddles or dating them?????
So does whiskey, but the oldest are not always the best. There are some pretty crappy violins that are very old and some really good new ones. I have a very old 1800's fiddle that only fit for lighting the fire with. I only keep it for sentimental reasons.I also have a Whimarsh 1954 fiddle that is quite nice and an old 1850's fiddle that is great (no name unfortunately). Just be careful what you buy. You might be lucky but you might also end up with firewood.
They certainly do improve with age, there is no doubt about that. But just because it's old doesn't necessarily mean it's a great instrument. If it wasn't well made to begin with then age will only make it a poorly made old instrument.
Also, being able to date it by looks takes an expert eye, you can't do it by reading up on it. Keep in mind that a lot of violins are "antiqued" when they are made, and can look a lot older than they are to an untrained eye.
It's not easy to evaluate a fiddle by looking at it, but there are some things you can look for. Look for light weight indicating thin, well-carved plates, a tight grain on the top, a well-carved scroll, a nicely flamed back, a straight neck set at the right angle, and preferably a one-piece belly and back (though two-piece back and/or belly doesn't always mean an inferior instrument, especially if it's only the back).
The biggest problem is that an old instrument may need work that costs more than it's worth, and it can be hard to tell what needs to be done without having a luthier look at it. And you really can't tell much about the most important aspects of the instrument without playing it.
If it's a low price and you don't mind taking a gamble, it might be worth it on the chance that you'll end up with a great-sounding old fiddle. But unless you can get an expert to look at it for you and/or are allowed to play it before hand, you're taking a chance on throwing your money away. Good luck though, if you buy it I hope it's a great find.
If the fiddles are old, there's a very, very good chance that they are German factory instruments. These can be had commonly for around $100. There's also a very, very, very good chance that you can put $200 or more into making them playable. After fixed up, the instrument is probably worth $200. This means that there is a good chance that you'll pay $300 for a $200 instrument. You can go through all that hassle, or you can go strait to a respected violin/fiddle shop and get the same, or better bang for your buck. Better yet, spend around $500 and you can often get a much, much better instrument. The key is buying from a respected shop. Preferably one that has a good luthier.
Depends what you mean by 'old', awildman2384. If they're German factory fiddles, they would be what I would consider 'modern' or 'new'. 'Old' is older than that. Also, some German factory fiddles are really quite good and will go - here in the UK at any rate - for as much as £1,500, or, say, $2,800. Others are rubbish.
Here in the UK at least, it wouldn't be worth spending as little as the equivalent of $500 at a violin shop for a fiddle. For one just about good enough for a student fiddle, you should be looking to spend at least the equivalent of $2,000. Buy one at auction and do it up, however, and you might (with a lot of luck) end up with a really nice fiddle. Of course, it's going to cost you at least $1,500 by the time you pay someone to do it up for you. And, unless you have years of experience as a skilled violin repairer, you're not going to be able to do it yourself.
OK then, somebody point me to somewhere with hard evidence that says why violins improve their tone with age. And not just the repetitive old hearsay.
Yes, violins improve when played, a brand new one will sound better after it's been played for a few months, and an old one left idle will sound better after it's been played for a few months. There's something about the vibrations that settle the things. But how can it continue to get better? Are you saying they will just keep getting better for ever? Come on now, it's bloody nonsense.
It takes a deal of luck for an instrument to survive intact for hundreds of years. A deal of luck, and, of course, If the instrument was well made and consequently expensive, it stands a greater chance of being cherished and passed on.
I haven't got any hard evidence. But it is pretty much accepted that they *do* keep getting better. I don't think it's nonsense. The wood gets harder and more brittle with age. Two hundred year old wood will sound better than new wood. To me, it doesn't seem terribly surprising.
I tried to look up one thing which I remember someone telling me ages ago. I tried to look it up, in case it isn't true. Someone here will probably have more success than me at looking it up. One of the great violin makers - I think it was Guarneri - is supposed to have bought his house because it had hundred year old floorboards in it, which he then proceeded to rip up over a period of time to make his violins. Why? Old wood.
That pdf looks interesting, I've just scanned it briefly, I'll read it properly later, but it does say in the conclusion: "and there may be no substitute for three hundred years of graceful aging".
"What does that mean? In 600 hundred years it will disintegrate if you touch it?"
Well, it might. It is organic. Heck, even some of the strads aren't sounding as good as they used to, and a few are nigh unplayable, simply because they've been patched and re-glued and repaired so dang often in the past 50 years. The more repair work that is done on an instrument, the more it loses it's structural stability, and the sound quality will suffer. And age doesn't necessarily make a good sounding instrument. A good player makes a good sounding instrument. A good player can make even a lower-end instrument sound fabulous, and an Amati or Guarneri will still sound like a dying cat when played by a beginner.
I'd stay away from the auction fiddle. Go to a luthier or dealer and play some instruments in your price range. They are making some very nice new instruments these days. But don't be fooled by the "brighter" bigger sound of new instruments...in year or two, that sound will change slightly.
to me, it stands to reason that a well loved old fiddle would have it over one that is new, but a fiddle has to start somewhere ... and it also stands to reason that one made of very old wood would have it over one made of "newer". It also stands to reason that a fiddle that is a joy to play is more likely to survive for longer than one that is not. Preloved is good I recon, but in hundreds of years there are likely to be issues and repairs that have to be made (could you blame that on climate change!) ... it clearly doesn't do a fiddle good to be left disintegrating in the shed or attic ... and in some cases the fortunes of a ffiddle through a succession of owners would have inevitably oscillated ... revolutions, local and world wars and the like ... if only they could talk, the surviving old ones, what stories they could tell. Give me the lovely sounding old one ... but where to find one? That's where the luck comes in
... but Irish Mandolin is looking for advice and websites on dating and repairing violins ... and I recon going to auctions, antique shops, talking to friends and relatives ... exploring and looking in books and websites might be a good way to start, so I think he/she is going about it in a sensible way ... trying to get a little knowledge ... the more he/she knows the more likely to come up with what he/she is looking for, hey?
''Sill, I don't think anyone refutes the need to play in the instrument and besides just having an instrument sit around for 300 years, is by far the greatest effect. I'm not so interested in trying to prove it since it would be much like proving water is wet''
"In the first few years in the life of all string instruments it is expected that an instrument will do what is known as settling. From then on, you can look forward to fewer adjustments and a more stable instrument."
Oh ... llig, I fairly recently bought this old obviously hand hewn chunky coffee table from the tip shop. A bit of bush furniture. Really solid and enduring (but left out in the weathers I recon on the top, which will have to be replaced) Its really grainy, and you can see where the softer parts of the wood have shrunk back from the harder rings ... I'm going to revarnish and restore it ... there's where MY reasoning comes into it ... the aging of the wood is highly visible ...
Here we go again, hey! I have only voiced my opinion ... IMHO! If you are going to quote me, please do it properly, in context.
Here's what an experienced luthier has to say about it:
Quote:
"There is no question that all things being equal, an old violin will sound better than a new one. With age the wood hardens and becomes more resonant. If the violin has a soft varnish age will make the varnish harden also. However, a new violin is much more preferable to an old violin with many repairs. A good new violin will improve with age. (On the other hand a new violin with plates that are too thin may deteriorate with age). All in all, the condition of an old violin must be weighed with the advantages of the structurally perfect condition of a new violin."
... anyway, I think the link I put up shows how highly desirable it is to learn as much as you can before you dabble into violin ownership ... and thankyou for that interesting link Ionannas.
Cheers
Ilig, what are you looking for? A scientific study proving that old wood sounds better? It can't really be done, because there's no objective way to measure the quality of the sound.
Experienced musicians and luthiers the world over consider old wood to sound better, from experience with many different instruments. Do you think that they are all mistaken?
It's like the fact that good wines can improve with age. It's obvious to anyone who has enough experience with tasting wine, but you can't really prove it because taste is subjective.
benhall, it's pretty clear what I meant about old. no need to be pedantic, as we're talking in generalizations here, not specifics. FWIW, the vast majority of German factory fiddles here in the US are of the $2-500 variety, not the $1500 variety. Most of the good ones must still be on the other side of the pond. Either that, or they're way overpriced.
As for the 2000 price point for a starter fiddle, I strongly, strongly disagree. At least in the US. Fiddles that will last a beginner 10 years or more can easily be had for around 1000. Or they can last a lifetime, depending on the player. Are the prices that different over here, or is it our opinions?
But the chemistry of ageing wine is well studied and well understood. Of course it can be measured. And it's well known that the process is not indefinite.
Likewise with instruments. That pdf posted earlier quotes lots of fine studies. But does not conclude that, beyond settling down, instruments improve with age.
I wasn't being pedantic, awildman2384. I was just putting my perspective - if you'll allow that? For me, a fiddle made at the end of the nineteenth or beginning of the twentieth century isn't old.
Have a look, if you can, at the wood of a late nineteenth century fiddle (which wood, btw, if the fiddle's a good one, will have been pretty old even by the time the fiddle was made) and compare it with the wood of an eighteenth century fiddle. You'll see a very marked difference between the two. The eighteenth century one will be really hard - almost not like wood any more.
On the subject of prices, I've often wondered about the apparent difference here with prices that you chaps in the States talk about. They seem so cheap to me. I'd be interested to find out what other UK-based people think. When was the last time you tried to buy a fiddle for under £1,200 (roughly $2,000)? Over here, as it seems to me, you have to spend nearly that much on a bow to get anything decent. And even then, it won't be particularly special.
An old fiddle can be anywhere on the scale from total cr@p up to being worth millions. It's not the age that defines the quality. If there's an old neglected fiddle in an auction, it was probably neglected for a reason. If it looks like it has not been neglected but continuously played (especially in the higher positions), looked after, professionally repaired if necessary, then at least it was treasured by someone. Fiddles that are nearly 100 years old might still have been made in a factory by mechanised means. People with a lot of violin experience (not me) will probably have glanced over all the job lots in auctions, and they can spot in an instant whether a fiddle is worth £20, £200 or £2000 - or more! - so there's not a lot of bargains for the innocent out there. (By the way, I just bought a really nice one - I know it's nice because of all the rubbishy ones I've bought in the past!)
We seem to have wandered a fair way from how to date fiddles, but I guess that's how conversations go. So, continuing the diversion...
An experiment to test the acoustics of a "played" violin vs an "unplayed" violin is underway in the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney: http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/powerhousetwins.html
The experiment started in 2001, so it is only early days, but so far, the two violins have not shown any great differences in tone. The "unplayed" violin seems to have settled in just as well as the "played" one.
One pair of violins isn't really enough for a rigorous scientific study, but it's interesting nevertheless, and some useful findings may emerge. This trial won't necessarily answer the question of whether or not violins improve with age, but it should be able to detect changes in measured acoustic properties, should they occur.
Here's hoping that the "played" violin has a long and happy life in the real world, and doesn't meet with an untimely accident.
Tell your great grandkids to watch this space...
I read this article a while back. This is more about the shorter term "playing in" of an instrument than it is about the long-term aging of the wood, but it showed some surprising results. Some of which suggests to me that the notion of instruments improving with time and age is a meme that has been perpetuated, and people swear that it happens, but that it isn't necessarily backed up with objective data.
Well, I had a 100-year-old violin restored a few years ago, including a varnish touch-up under the bridge feet. It has definitely improved with time/playing, and sounds much better now than when the varnish repair was fresh. Also, I've found old fiddles to generally have a different sound than newer ones; they tend to have a wider, more resonant sound.
Of course, that's all anecdotal and not exactly scientific evidence, but in my experience age does make a difference.
Yep, same study!
As far as I can see, the most recent results are from 2005, so maybe the next round of tests isn't too far away.
I'm doing my own research into this issue and have discovered that my fiddle sounds better unplayed.
That's what I'm talking about, Marklar, people swear it happens, and have always been told that it is from the vibrations realigning the wood fibers slightly to respond to the specific vibration tones, and the wood aging and becoming more brittle. But it might be the older fiddles were built differently, which is why they sound different, and that improvement in tone over time is either due to physical changes of the parts, like the sound post moving slightly, or could even just be romantic wishful thinking.
I'm not necessarily saying this is the case, I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit, and challenging people's preconceived notions...
Again, their conclusion is that "it works", but includes no scientific analysis. They also cite an MIT study that was to take place that might show some scientific evidence (this is from 11 years ago), but I haven't find anything related to that, unfortunately
Well, it's all academic anyway. The important thing is how a particular fiddle sounds, not how old it is. Age is more important for collectors than musicians, and there are many new instruments that sound as good or better than much older ones.
It's worth bearing in mind that when comparing "old" fiddles (that is, pre-19th century) with modern ones we're not comparing like with like.
Virtually every "old" fiddle in use today will have gone through at least one major rebuild during its lifetime - and I'm not including rebuilds necessary to repair damage.
An early-18th century fiddle in its original form, e.g. straight from Stradivari's workshop, would have had a shorter, thicker neck at a shallower angle to the body of the instrument, a significantly shorter fingerboard, a shorter bass-bar stuck on the underside of the belly, a fairly clunky-looking bridge (as far as we can tell), gut strings (including the E) at a lower pitch than today (probably about A415), and, rather importantly, a baroque bow to play it. All of which makes such an instrument look, play and sound very different to today's instruments.
The sound then would have been lighter and thinner, although still resonant. Some idea of how this affected the cello in particular can be assessed from Yo-Yo Ma's CD of baroque cello music that he recorded some time ago with Ton Koopman's baroque ensemble. Ma had a luthier do a partial retro makeover of his Strad for the purpose. The insurance company wouldn't allow a full retro (basically a big "no" to replacing the neck, fingerboard and bass-bar), but even so the external changes made a dramatic retro change to the sound of an old instrument that had been transformed during the 19th century to cope with the demands of the late-Classical and Romantic orchestral repertoire, and major concertos like the Dvorak.
A very respected violin maker and repairer friend of mine once told me (strictly in confidence) that people often bring him violins they say they are not happy with the sound of. He hangs them up in the shop for a week. Phones the person up to say the work is done, and when they come in and have a go, they are apoplectic with gratitude and open their cheque books accordingly.
... it does show how fickle our imaginations can be.
And maybe I, and most of the rest of the world, are imagining that fiddles do improve with age. What I *know*, because I can see it, is that you can easily tell 300 year old wood from 200 year old wood, and the older wood is a hell of a lot different, definitely harder, more brittle, makes a completely different sound if you tap it, etc.
Now, in my imagination, that wood is also 'better', in that it produces a better sound.
Still, it's obviously true, as others have said above, that a rubbish fiddle will still be a rubbish fiddle in 300 years - if it survives that long. Funnily enough, there are supposed to be one or two Strads that are rubbish. Still worth a fortune, though ...
There's also the fact that when high-end new violins are made, they are made from wood that has typically been aged for decades. So even new instruments may be made of old wood, and I doubt that luthiers would go to the trouble of gathering supplies of aged wood if age didn't make a difference in the sound.
Sir, would you complain to a doctor if you went to them with a pain, they gave you a placebo and your pain went away? Or was the Doctor merely doing his job of getting rid of your pain?
That's different, at least the doctor did something, and in that case you're paying for the office visit anyway. Charging money for work that you claim to have done but haven't is dishonest.
"A very respected violin maker and repairer..etc " ( llig leahcim)
What may be happening is that the acoustic in the luthier's shop, with hard surfaces and resonating instruments hanging around all over the place, is quite different to that of a domestic environment with all its soft furnishings, curtains and such like. No wonder the customer's instrument sounds "improved"!
I know that my fiddles give a different sound at home if I draw the curtains.
A lot of medical treatment is 60% "magic" (the placebos and bedside manner), 40% Mother Nature being a given a chance to do her healing, and 10% genuine drug treatment. Good doctors have been doing this for thousands of years.
Ok, those figures are off the top of my head, but you get the picture.
There is no logical or scientific reason I can think of why a thing made of properly seasoned wood should improve at all after a short period of settling down through playing. We get exactly the same bullsh*t with harmonicas. You're supposed to play them gently to "break them in" for weeks. A thing made of inert plastic, inert metal and inert brass, and you have to break it in. Cobblers. The only sphere of life in which you hear more rubbish than this is gardening. Received wisdom rules OK.
Wood changes at the fiber and cellular levels as it ages, and it responds to long-term stresses by slowly changing its shape. We should expect that the sound of an instrument will respond to these changes. A good luthier knows something about allowing for these changes, which is partly why most stringed instruments sound better at six months than at six days and maybe better at two years than at six months. Beyond that, it gets pretty hard to make comparisons and draw conclusions.
I’ve known lots of guitars and mandolins from fifty to a hundred years old. The older ones do often seem to have an interesting sound – I think of it as a dry, woody sound. But I’m not sure I could call it a better sound altogether. Some of the old instruments lacked the balance across strings and up the neck that modern instruments have. Maybe they had it and lost it, or maybe they never had it. And, of course, old instruments that sounded good when they were young probably stood a better chance of being preserved, thereby skewing the population of survivors toward the better instruments.
I wouldn’t choose an instrument based on its age, except that I’d slightly prefer to select from those that are at least a year old, just to get past the break-in period.
Llig the violin improves with age coz the varnish that it is coated with when it is being made gradulally sinks into the wood which gives a better tone over time. FACT
"Do violins actually improve with age? The acoustical properties of the wood used in their construction
certainly change with the passage of years.
Moisture in wood absorbs vibrational energy, converting it to heat energy by evaporation. Although the wood used in violins is already dry, minute changes in water content can have dramatic effects on violin acoustics: a 1 percent decrease in moisture content reduces damping by up to 3.5 percent. The long-term improvement of acoustical
response depends mainly on the degradation of hemicellulose, the component of wood that adsorbs water most readily and degrades most dramatically over time. As hemicellulose degrades, the wood’s maximum water content decreases. Even over very short periods, the sound of a frequently played violin may noticeably improve as small amounts of water evaporate from the wood."
"Researchers in England say that laboratory tests conducted on wood commonly used to make violins supports age-old claims by musicians that the regular playing of a stringed instrument improves its tone."
This perennial argument will never be settled because the definitive scientific comparison will never be done. If the world community were to decide to pursue the question with massive funding and as yet undeveloped technology, here’s what I would predict as the outcome:
1. Old fiddles, as a population, do have a statistical tendency to sound slightly different from modern ones, but the difference is smaller than the difference between individual fiddles within either population.
2. There is considerable disagreement as to what constitutes a “good” sound.
I don't know about musical instruments, but I can personally testify to changes in wood over time ... hey, when I was on the cattle station and I had to chop me own wood for the fire in winter, what was available was petrified fence posts from the early days (not so long ago really, very late 19th - early 20th Century when the cattle came and fences started to go up) ... anyway, the posts were sooooooo hard they were the dickens to chop and no grain to be seen in them ... truly petrified. They were good slow burning, but I recon it still took as long to chop them as to burn them ... and noone would willingly take a chain saw to them because they wrecked chainsaws too ... that hard.
Hey, what's the "ACK!" for? ... okay, I guess it would be quite a job to try and carve a fiddle out of one ... you'd have to use a swag of diamonds! ... but Llig was earlier looking for "proof" and Ben was saying how 300 year old wood is different from 200 ... and I just thought this was my own experiencial evidence of wood aging accelerated by extreme aridity. OOOOooooo, now I get it ... you were jokin'
Ben.hall if I was given a 1750 fiddle, I'd sell it immediately - pay off my
two mortgages, do some home renovations, go on a big overseas trip,
top up my retirement account, and then spend a couple of thousand from
what's left on a new fiddle.
It's not a 'fashionable' one, Hup. In great condition, sounds great, but not worth all that much. It's English. English fiddle making is generally supposed to follow a W pattern over time, with the earliest English fiddles being pre-eminent in the world (at that time), then dipping in the mid to late eighteenth century, rising again, falling and, the latest ones, rising again so that modern English fiddles are really pretty good. If you get the right maker of course.
My fiddle happens to be a pretty good one, but still, it dates from a time which is *supposed* to be not so good, so hence its relatively low value.
Clear Drops introduces the concept of firewood. I wonder what actually happens to all the unwanted, broken, not-worth-fixing fiddles in the world? I can't imagine any of the contributers to this discussion actually deciding that a fiddle of any kind was just junk, and breaking it up and using it for kindling. I've got two cheap rubbishy fiddles, one of which I've had for 40 years, but I could never chuck it in the bin. The other one's Chinese and worth about 5p - maybe useful for practising putting soundposts up and knocking them down again. Perhaps they get used as stage props for breaking over peoples' heads. Do luthiers just break them up for recycling? Ah, just realised as I was typing this - that's what eBay's for!
Dating fiddles
Dating fiddles
Hey
Im thinking of buying a cheap fiddle out of an auction there is no sticker or date in graved into the instruments but they look very old.....
is there any way telling aprox how old the instrument are without going to a fiddle maker????
anyone know any good sites for info on repairing fiddles or dating them?????
Thanks
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Irish Mandolin
Re: Dating fiddles
Violins don't improve with age.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
Well... actually it's a fact that violins do improve with age!
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Emily Pentreath
Re: Dating fiddles
So does whiskey, but the oldest are not always the best. There are some pretty crappy violins that are very old and some really good new ones. I have a very old 1800's fiddle that only fit for lighting the fire with. I only keep it for sentimental reasons.I also have a Whimarsh 1954 fiddle that is quite nice and an old 1850's fiddle that is great (no name unfortunately). Just be careful what you buy. You might be lucky but you might also end up with firewood.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Bernie
Re: Dating fiddles
They certainly do improve with age, there is no doubt about that. But just because it's old doesn't necessarily mean it's a great instrument. If it wasn't well made to begin with then age will only make it a poorly made old instrument.
Also, being able to date it by looks takes an expert eye, you can't do it by reading up on it. Keep in mind that a lot of violins are "antiqued" when they are made, and can look a lot older than they are to an untrained eye.
It's not easy to evaluate a fiddle by looking at it, but there are some things you can look for. Look for light weight indicating thin, well-carved plates, a tight grain on the top, a well-carved scroll, a nicely flamed back, a straight neck set at the right angle, and preferably a one-piece belly and back (though two-piece back and/or belly doesn't always mean an inferior instrument, especially if it's only the back).
The biggest problem is that an old instrument may need work that costs more than it's worth, and it can be hard to tell what needs to be done without having a luthier look at it. And you really can't tell much about the most important aspects of the instrument without playing it.
If it's a low price and you don't mind taking a gamble, it might be worth it on the chance that you'll end up with a great-sounding old fiddle. But unless you can get an expert to look at it for you and/or are allowed to play it before hand, you're taking a chance on throwing your money away. Good luck though, if you buy it I hope it's a great find.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
Ack, cross-posted with Bernie there. Old whiskey is a safer bet, at least after you have enough of it you won't care that it wasn't a good buy
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
ligs comment is irrelevant.
they do improve withage, if theyare played,and if theyare not made of plywood
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Rufus Jameson
Re: Dating fiddles
If the fiddles are old, there's a very, very good chance that they are German factory instruments. These can be had commonly for around $100. There's also a very, very, very good chance that you can put $200 or more into making them playable. After fixed up, the instrument is probably worth $200. This means that there is a good chance that you'll pay $300 for a $200 instrument. You can go through all that hassle, or you can go strait to a respected violin/fiddle shop and get the same, or better bang for your buck. Better yet, spend around $500 and you can often get a much, much better instrument. The key is buying from a respected shop. Preferably one that has a good luthier.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by awildman2384
Re: Dating fiddles
Depends what you mean by 'old', awildman2384. If they're German factory fiddles, they would be what I would consider 'modern' or 'new'. 'Old' is older than that. Also, some German factory fiddles are really quite good and will go - here in the UK at any rate - for as much as £1,500, or, say, $2,800. Others are rubbish.
Here in the UK at least, it wouldn't be worth spending as little as the equivalent of $500 at a violin shop for a fiddle. For one just about good enough for a student fiddle, you should be looking to spend at least the equivalent of $2,000. Buy one at auction and do it up, however, and you might (with a lot of luck) end up with a really nice fiddle. Of course, it's going to cost you at least $1,500 by the time you pay someone to do it up for you. And, unless you have years of experience as a skilled violin repairer, you're not going to be able to do it yourself.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Dating fiddles
I was dateing my fiddle for years befor we got married..... oh , hang on...got the wrong idea here....
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Dating fiddles
OK then, somebody point me to somewhere with hard evidence that says why violins improve their tone with age. And not just the repetitive old hearsay.
Yes, violins improve when played, a brand new one will sound better after it's been played for a few months, and an old one left idle will sound better after it's been played for a few months. There's something about the vibrations that settle the things. But how can it continue to get better? Are you saying they will just keep getting better for ever? Come on now, it's bloody nonsense.
It takes a deal of luck for an instrument to survive intact for hundreds of years. A deal of luck, and, of course, If the instrument was well made and consequently expensive, it stands a greater chance of being cherished and passed on.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
I haven't got any hard evidence. But it is pretty much accepted that they *do* keep getting better. I don't think it's nonsense. The wood gets harder and more brittle with age. Two hundred year old wood will sound better than new wood. To me, it doesn't seem terribly surprising.
I tried to look up one thing which I remember someone telling me ages ago. I tried to look it up, in case it isn't true. Someone here will probably have more success than me at looking it up. One of the great violin makers - I think it was Guarneri - is supposed to have bought his house because it had hundred year old floorboards in it, which he then proceeded to rip up over a period of time to make his violins. Why? Old wood.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Dating fiddles
well I found this, not directly relevant, but interesting;
http://eands.caltech.edu/articles/LXVII4/Hsieh%20Layout.pdf
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Dating fiddles
"The wood gets harder and more brittle with age"? What does that mean? In 600 hundred years it will disintegrate if you touch it?
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
That pdf looks interesting, I've just scanned it briefly, I'll read it properly later, but it does say in the conclusion: "and there may be no substitute for three hundred years of graceful aging".
"may be", not "is".
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
"What does that mean? In 600 hundred years it will disintegrate if you touch it?"
Well, it might. It is organic. Heck, even some of the strads aren't sounding as good as they used to, and a few are nigh unplayable, simply because they've been patched and re-glued and repaired so dang often in the past 50 years. The more repair work that is done on an instrument, the more it loses it's structural stability, and the sound quality will suffer. And age doesn't necessarily make a good sounding instrument. A good player makes a good sounding instrument. A good player can make even a lower-end instrument sound fabulous, and an Amati or Guarneri will still sound like a dying cat when played by a beginner.
I'd stay away from the auction fiddle. Go to a luthier or dealer and play some instruments in your price range. They are making some very nice new instruments these days. But don't be fooled by the "brighter" bigger sound of new instruments...in year or two, that sound will change slightly.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by thebunnystomper
Re: Dating fiddles
to me, it stands to reason that a well loved old fiddle would have it over one that is new, but a fiddle has to start somewhere ... and it also stands to reason that one made of very old wood would have it over one made of "newer". It also stands to reason that a fiddle that is a joy to play is more likely to survive for longer than one that is not. Preloved is good I recon, but in hundreds of years there are likely to be issues and repairs that have to be made (could you blame that on climate change!) ... it clearly doesn't do a fiddle good to be left disintegrating in the shed or attic ... and in some cases the fortunes of a ffiddle through a succession of owners would have inevitably oscillated ... revolutions, local and world wars and the like ... if only they could talk, the surviving old ones, what stories they could tell. Give me the lovely sounding old one ... but where to find one? That's where the luck comes in
... but Irish Mandolin is looking for advice and websites on dating and repairing violins ... and I recon going to auctions, antique shops, talking to friends and relatives ... exploring and looking in books and websites might be a good way to start, so I think he/she is going about it in a sensible way ... trying to get a little knowledge ... the more he/she knows the more likely to come up with what he/she is looking for, hey?
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Dating fiddles
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Dark-Side-of-The-Violin:-Crooked-Luthiers,-Greedy-Salesmen-and-Other-Creepy-Creatures-Exposed&id=248701
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Dating fiddles
lovely quote here from ;Kevin Krentz, http://violinplay-in.com/
''Sill, I don't think anyone refutes the need to play in the instrument and besides just having an instrument sit around for 300 years, is by far the greatest effect. I'm not so interested in trying to prove it since it would be much like proving water is wet''
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Dating fiddles
"it stands to reason" ??
All things stand or fall to reason. But where is this reason?
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
"to me"!!!!
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Dating fiddles
here's another quote from violinplay-in.com:
"In the first few years in the life of all string instruments it is expected that an instrument will do what is known as settling. From then on, you can look forward to fewer adjustments and a more stable instrument."
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
Oh ... llig, I fairly recently bought this old obviously hand hewn chunky coffee table from the tip shop. A bit of bush furniture. Really solid and enduring (but left out in the weathers I recon on the top, which will have to be replaced) Its really grainy, and you can see where the softer parts of the wood have shrunk back from the harder rings ... I'm going to revarnish and restore it ... there's where MY reasoning comes into it ... the aging of the wood is highly visible ...
Here we go again, hey! I have only voiced my opinion ... IMHO! If you are going to quote me, please do it properly, in context.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Dating fiddles
Would you leave your fiddle "out in the weathers"?
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
Here's what an experienced luthier has to say about it:
Quote:
"There is no question that all things being equal, an old violin will sound better than a new one. With age the wood hardens and becomes more resonant. If the violin has a soft varnish age will make the varnish harden also. However, a new violin is much more preferable to an old violin with many repairs. A good new violin will improve with age. (On the other hand a new violin with plates that are too thin may deteriorate with age). All in all, the condition of an old violin must be weighed with the advantages of the structurally perfect condition of a new violin."
Link:
http://www.zaretandsonsviolins.com/choosingviolin.html
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
I dated a fiddle once. I do not recommend it. Get yourself a nice lass.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Dating fiddles
Yes, when dating a fiddle there are always strings attached.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
... anyway, I think the link I put up shows how highly desirable it is to learn as much as you can before you dabble into violin ownership ... and thankyou for that interesting link Ionannas.
Cheers
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Dating fiddles
"With age, the wood hardens and becomes more resonant."
How long? For ever?
"There is no question"?? AAAAArrrrrggggghh
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
... well Llig, you can't avoid it here ... the aridity has no respect for flimsy walls and doors and it even comes inside
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Dating fiddles
... many's the muso here who's become unstuck somewhere sometime here ... gets into the glue and turns it to dust.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Dating fiddles
Ilig, what are you looking for? A scientific study proving that old wood sounds better? It can't really be done, because there's no objective way to measure the quality of the sound.
Experienced musicians and luthiers the world over consider old wood to sound better, from experience with many different instruments. Do you think that they are all mistaken?
It's like the fact that good wines can improve with age. It's obvious to anyone who has enough experience with tasting wine, but you can't really prove it because taste is subjective.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
benhall, it's pretty clear what I meant about old. no need to be pedantic, as we're talking in generalizations here, not specifics. FWIW, the vast majority of German factory fiddles here in the US are of the $2-500 variety, not the $1500 variety. Most of the good ones must still be on the other side of the pond. Either that, or they're way overpriced.
As for the 2000 price point for a starter fiddle, I strongly, strongly disagree. At least in the US. Fiddles that will last a beginner 10 years or more can easily be had for around 1000. Or they can last a lifetime, depending on the player. Are the prices that different over here, or is it our opinions?
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by awildman2384
Re: Dating fiddles
But the chemistry of ageing wine is well studied and well understood. Of course it can be measured. And it's well known that the process is not indefinite.
Likewise with instruments. That pdf posted earlier quotes lots of fine studies. But does not conclude that, beyond settling down, instruments improve with age.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
I wasn't being pedantic, awildman2384. I was just putting my perspective - if you'll allow that? For me, a fiddle made at the end of the nineteenth or beginning of the twentieth century isn't old.
Have a look, if you can, at the wood of a late nineteenth century fiddle (which wood, btw, if the fiddle's a good one, will have been pretty old even by the time the fiddle was made) and compare it with the wood of an eighteenth century fiddle. You'll see a very marked difference between the two. The eighteenth century one will be really hard - almost not like wood any more.
On the subject of prices, I've often wondered about the apparent difference here with prices that you chaps in the States talk about. They seem so cheap to me. I'd be interested to find out what other UK-based people think. When was the last time you tried to buy a fiddle for under £1,200 (roughly $2,000)? Over here, as it seems to me, you have to spend nearly that much on a bow to get anything decent. And even then, it won't be particularly special.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Dating fiddles
hmm, I've just had a look at my viola (1910) and my violin (1850). There is no way you can tell which is the older just by looking, touching.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
Maybe not, Michael. But you'd see a huge difference with my fiddle from about 1750. The wood looks, feels and sounds different.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Dating fiddles
An old fiddle can be anywhere on the scale from total cr@p up to being worth millions. It's not the age that defines the quality. If there's an old neglected fiddle in an auction, it was probably neglected for a reason. If it looks like it has not been neglected but continuously played (especially in the higher positions), looked after, professionally repaired if necessary, then at least it was treasured by someone. Fiddles that are nearly 100 years old might still have been made in a factory by mechanised means. People with a lot of violin experience (not me) will probably have glanced over all the job lots in auctions, and they can spot in an instant whether a fiddle is worth £20, £200 or £2000 - or more! - so there's not a lot of bargains for the innocent out there. (By the way, I just bought a really nice one - I know it's nice because of all the rubbishy ones I've bought in the past!)
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Dating fiddles
We seem to have wandered a fair way from how to date fiddles, but I guess that's how conversations go. So, continuing the diversion...
An experiment to test the acoustics of a "played" violin vs an "unplayed" violin is underway in the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney:
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/powerhousetwins.html
The experiment started in 2001, so it is only early days, but so far, the two violins have not shown any great differences in tone. The "unplayed" violin seems to have settled in just as well as the "played" one.
One pair of violins isn't really enough for a rigorous scientific study, but it's interesting nevertheless, and some useful findings may emerge. This trial won't necessarily answer the question of whether or not violins improve with age, but it should be able to detect changes in measured acoustic properties, should they occur.
Here's hoping that the "played" violin has a long and happy life in the real world, and doesn't meet with an untimely accident.
Tell your great grandkids to watch this space...
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by GraemeO
Re: Dating fiddles
I read this article a while back. This is more about the shorter term "playing in" of an instrument than it is about the long-term aging of the wood, but it showed some surprising results. Some of which suggests to me that the notion of instruments improving with time and age is a meme that has been perpetuated, and people swear that it happens, but that it isn't necessarily backed up with objective data.
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~jw/reprints/IntaViolin.pdf
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Dating fiddles
oops, cross post. Same study, GraemeO
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Dating fiddles
Well, I had a 100-year-old violin restored a few years ago, including a varnish touch-up under the bridge feet. It has definitely improved with time/playing, and sounds much better now than when the varnish repair was fresh. Also, I've found old fiddles to generally have a different sound than newer ones; they tend to have a wider, more resonant sound.
Of course, that's all anecdotal and not exactly scientific evidence, but in my experience age does make a difference.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
Yep, same study!
As far as I can see, the most recent results are from 2005, so maybe the next round of tests isn't too far away.
I'm doing my own research into this issue and have discovered that my fiddle sounds better unplayed.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by GraemeO
Re: Dating fiddles
That's what I'm talking about, Marklar, people swear it happens, and have always been told that it is from the vibrations realigning the wood fibers slightly to respond to the specific vibration tones, and the wood aging and becoming more brittle. But it might be the older fiddles were built differently, which is why they sound different, and that improvement in tone over time is either due to physical changes of the parts, like the sound post moving slightly, or could even just be romantic wishful thinking.
I'm not necessarily saying this is the case, I'm just playing devil's advocate a bit, and challenging people's preconceived notions...
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Dating fiddles
Oh, and last time we discussed this, I had also run across this article: http://www.acousticguitar.com/Gear/advice/vibration.shtml
Again, their conclusion is that "it works", but includes no scientific analysis. They also cite an MIT study that was to take place that might show some scientific evidence (this is from 11 years ago), but I haven't find anything related to that, unfortunately
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Dating fiddles
Well, it's all academic anyway. The important thing is how a particular fiddle sounds, not how old it is. Age is more important for collectors than musicians, and there are many new instruments that sound as good or better than much older ones.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
It's worth bearing in mind that when comparing "old" fiddles (that is, pre-19th century) with modern ones we're not comparing like with like.
Virtually every "old" fiddle in use today will have gone through at least one major rebuild during its lifetime - and I'm not including rebuilds necessary to repair damage.
An early-18th century fiddle in its original form, e.g. straight from Stradivari's workshop, would have had a shorter, thicker neck at a shallower angle to the body of the instrument, a significantly shorter fingerboard, a shorter bass-bar stuck on the underside of the belly, a fairly clunky-looking bridge (as far as we can tell), gut strings (including the E) at a lower pitch than today (probably about A415), and, rather importantly, a baroque bow to play it. All of which makes such an instrument look, play and sound very different to today's instruments.
The sound then would have been lighter and thinner, although still resonant. Some idea of how this affected the cello in particular can be assessed from Yo-Yo Ma's CD of baroque cello music that he recorded some time ago with Ton Koopman's baroque ensemble. Ma had a luthier do a partial retro makeover of his Strad for the purpose. The insurance company wouldn't allow a full retro (basically a big "no" to replacing the neck, fingerboard and bass-bar), but even so the external changes made a dramatic retro change to the sound of an old instrument that had been transformed during the 19th century to cope with the demands of the late-Classical and Romantic orchestral repertoire, and major concertos like the Dvorak.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Dating fiddles
A very respected violin maker and repairer friend of mine once told me (strictly in confidence) that people often bring him violins they say they are not happy with the sound of. He hangs them up in the shop for a week. Phones the person up to say the work is done, and when they come in and have a go, they are apoplectic with gratitude and open their cheque books accordingly.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
Aha! So they do improve with age, and in as little as a week!
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
Actually, I don't think I'd have much respect for a luthier that did that...seems pretty dishonest.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
Yeah, it is dishonest ... but ...
... it does show how fickle our imaginations can be.
And maybe I, and most of the rest of the world, are imagining that fiddles do improve with age. What I *know*, because I can see it, is that you can easily tell 300 year old wood from 200 year old wood, and the older wood is a hell of a lot different, definitely harder, more brittle, makes a completely different sound if you tap it, etc.
Now, in my imagination, that wood is also 'better', in that it produces a better sound.
Still, it's obviously true, as others have said above, that a rubbish fiddle will still be a rubbish fiddle in 300 years - if it survives that long. Funnily enough, there are supposed to be one or two Strads that are rubbish. Still worth a fortune, though ...
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Dating fiddles
There's also the fact that when high-end new violins are made, they are made from wood that has typically been aged for decades. So even new instruments may be made of old wood, and I doubt that luthiers would go to the trouble of gathering supplies of aged wood if age didn't make a difference in the sound.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
Sir, would you complain to a doctor if you went to them with a pain, they gave you a placebo and your pain went away? Or was the Doctor merely doing his job of getting rid of your pain?
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
That's different, at least the doctor did something, and in that case you're paying for the office visit anyway. Charging money for work that you claim to have done but haven't is dishonest.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
"A very respected violin maker and repairer..etc " ( llig leahcim)
What may be happening is that the acoustic in the luthier's shop, with hard surfaces and resonating instruments hanging around all over the place, is quite different to that of a domestic environment with all its soft furnishings, curtains and such like. No wonder the customer's instrument sounds "improved"!
I know that my fiddles give a different sound at home if I draw the curtains.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Dating fiddles
A lot of medical treatment is 60% "magic" (the placebos and bedside manner), 40% Mother Nature being a given a chance to do her healing, and 10% genuine drug treatment. Good doctors have been doing this for thousands of years.
Ok, those figures are off the top of my head, but you get the picture.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Dating fiddles
If you really want to improve your fiddle's tone, play it in a tile bathroom.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
There is no logical or scientific reason I can think of why a thing made of properly seasoned wood should improve at all after a short period of settling down through playing. We get exactly the same bullsh*t with harmonicas. You're supposed to play them gently to "break them in" for weeks. A thing made of inert plastic, inert metal and inert brass, and you have to break it in. Cobblers. The only sphere of life in which you hear more rubbish than this is gardening. Received wisdom rules OK.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Dating fiddles
Wood changes at the fiber and cellular levels as it ages, and it responds to long-term stresses by slowly changing its shape. We should expect that the sound of an instrument will respond to these changes. A good luthier knows something about allowing for these changes, which is partly why most stringed instruments sound better at six months than at six days and maybe better at two years than at six months. Beyond that, it gets pretty hard to make comparisons and draw conclusions.
I’ve known lots of guitars and mandolins from fifty to a hundred years old. The older ones do often seem to have an interesting sound – I think of it as a dry, woody sound. But I’m not sure I could call it a better sound altogether. Some of the old instruments lacked the balance across strings and up the neck that modern instruments have. Maybe they had it and lost it, or maybe they never had it. And, of course, old instruments that sounded good when they were young probably stood a better chance of being preserved, thereby skewing the population of survivors toward the better instruments.
I wouldn’t choose an instrument based on its age, except that I’d slightly prefer to select from those that are at least a year old, just to get past the break-in period.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Dating fiddles
Llig the violin improves with age coz the varnish that it is coated with when it is being made gradulally sinks into the wood which gives a better tone over time. FACT
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: Dating fiddles
proof?
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Dating fiddles
QUOTE:
"Do violins actually improve with age? The acoustical properties of the wood used in their construction
certainly change with the passage of years.
Moisture in wood absorbs vibrational energy, converting it to heat energy by evaporation. Although the wood used in violins is already dry, minute changes in water content can have dramatic effects on violin acoustics: a 1 percent decrease in moisture content reduces damping by up to 3.5 percent. The long-term improvement of acoustical
response depends mainly on the degradation of hemicellulose, the component of wood that adsorbs water most readily and degrades most dramatically over time. As hemicellulose degrades, the wood’s maximum water content decreases. Even over very short periods, the sound of a frequently played violin may noticeably improve as small amounts of water evaporate from the wood."
LINK:
http://eands.caltech.edu/articles/LXVII4/Hsieh%20Layout.pdf
----------------------------
QUOTE:
"Researchers in England say that laboratory tests conducted on wood commonly used to make violins supports age-old claims by musicians that the regular playing of a stringed instrument improves its tone."
LINK:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E5DB1139F934A15751C0A960958260&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
This perennial argument will never be settled because the definitive scientific comparison will never be done. If the world community were to decide to pursue the question with massive funding and as yet undeveloped technology, here’s what I would predict as the outcome:
1. Old fiddles, as a population, do have a statistical tendency to sound slightly different from modern ones, but the difference is smaller than the difference between individual fiddles within either population.
2. There is considerable disagreement as to what constitutes a “good” sound.
3. Now can we just play tunes?
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Dating fiddles
3. Now can we just play tunes?
You appear to be calling for the demise of this site.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Dating fiddles
You mean, like, because we mostly come here to argue moot points over and over again? Nah, that's half the fun.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Dating fiddles
Well, "moot points" are, after all, just that. They're points worthy of a moot.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Dating fiddles
But it's good to argue moot points over and over again. Everyone knows they get better with age.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
Hmmm, I think we have to award points for that one, Sir M.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Dating fiddles
A worthy point, Ben.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Dating fiddles
I don't know about musical instruments, but I can personally testify to changes in wood over time ... hey, when I was on the cattle station and I had to chop me own wood for the fire in winter, what was available was petrified fence posts from the early days (not so long ago really, very late 19th - early 20th Century when the cattle came and fences started to go up) ... anyway, the posts were sooooooo hard they were the dickens to chop and no grain to be seen in them ... truly petrified. They were good slow burning, but I recon it still took as long to chop them as to burn them ... and noone would willingly take a chain saw to them because they wrecked chainsaws too ... that hard.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Dating fiddles
ACK! Let's not bring fire wood and chainsaws into a fiddle discussion!
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Dating fiddles
Hey, what's the "ACK!" for? ... okay, I guess it would be quite a job to try and carve a fiddle out of one ... you'd have to use a swag of diamonds! ... but Llig was earlier looking for "proof" and Ben was saying how 300 year old wood is different from 200 ... and I just thought this was my own experiencial evidence of wood aging accelerated by extreme aridity. OOOOooooo, now I get it ... you were jokin'
... slinks off back down her bunyip hole
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Dating fiddles
Ben.hall if I was given a 1750 fiddle, I'd sell it immediately - pay off my
two mortgages, do some home renovations, go on a big overseas trip,
top up my retirement account, and then spend a couple of thousand from
what's left on a new fiddle.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by Hup
Re: Dating fiddles
It's not a 'fashionable' one, Hup. In great condition, sounds great, but not worth all that much. It's English. English fiddle making is generally supposed to follow a W pattern over time, with the earliest English fiddles being pre-eminent in the world (at that time), then dipping in the mid to late eighteenth century, rising again, falling and, the latest ones, rising again so that modern English fiddles are really pretty good. If you get the right maker of course.
My fiddle happens to be a pretty good one, but still, it dates from a time which is *supposed* to be not so good, so hence its relatively low value.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Dating fiddles
Clear Drops introduces the concept of firewood. I wonder what actually happens to all the unwanted, broken, not-worth-fixing fiddles in the world? I can't imagine any of the contributers to this discussion actually deciding that a fiddle of any kind was just junk, and breaking it up and using it for kindling. I've got two cheap rubbishy fiddles, one of which I've had for 40 years, but I could never chuck it in the bin. The other one's Chinese and worth about 5p - maybe useful for practising putting soundposts up and knocking them down again. Perhaps they get used as stage props for breaking over peoples' heads. Do luthiers just break them up for recycling? Ah, just realised as I was typing this - that's what eBay's for!
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Dating fiddles
Yes, you're supposed to put them on eBay with descriptions like "RARE ANTIQUE STRADIVARIUS!!! L@@K!!!"
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by Marklar