No, a few old tunes are, but nearly all the ones that were truly "steroidal scales or arppeggios" have gone by the wayside. As will new tunes like that first one Ring plays on the video clip.
See, even a tunes like Tripping Upstairs does more melodically and modally than that ho-hum downhill scale run Ring calls a tune.
Yeah, I agree with Will here, for the most part. It's the playing that makes these tunes exciting. In my earlier days of playing, I used to inspired by listening to Lúnasa, or the like, playing a tune. I'd go learn the tune, just to find that it was a fairly boring tune overall, and the playing is what I found interesting.
These particular tunes seem rather rhythmic to me, which is fine, I really like a lot of rhythmic tunes, and the playing here sounds great. But as melodies, they're rather uninteresting. If you're looking for interesting melodies, give me Ed Reavy or Paddy Fahey any day over that stuff...
(I'm not saying that rhythmic tunes don't have their place in the tradition...)
Its just like any tune really -either old or new - some are utter complete sh*te and some are good - in both styles...old and new. personally I like those two - but there are plenty of new tunes I think are lame. And there are plenty of old tunes that are lame.
With the old ones, you know whether they're good or not - they wouldn't still be played if they weren't. With new ones, you have to wait and see. And it then becomes a matter of personal taste. I couldn't stand these two. But that's probably just me. And maybe Will ...
im sorry there, but those tunes are sheee-ite. they dont sound nice to the ear at all, and even i have a wide taste in music. the first one is an unnattractive 'collection' of notes (doesn't sound like music at all) stuck together with adhesive in an attempt to make a tune. it sounds like he's makin it up as he goes along. there is no 'cohesion' to the tune at all. thats my opinion. i agree with benhall..couldn't stand them.
certainly doesn't remind me of any balkan or greek tune that i've heard. horrible stuff. i like some new tunes, but the best new ones are, john carty said, the ones that sound like they've been around for ages.
It would be interesting to hear what a good fiddler could make of those two tunes. I've got a feeling that the whistle may not be the ideal instrument for them.
and so on. The point is that these are well-formed melodies, not just a scale or arppeggio exercise. Any half-competent player can make a "tune" out of noodling through a scale:
K: Em
~B3G ~A3F|~G3E FEDF|~E3F GFGA| Bdef gfed:|
Bleh. Takes all of 7 seconds and no cognitive or emotional input. Bleh.
Beethoven's 5th symphony starts off with just 4 notes "ggg e2", and then he goes on to write 502 bars of intricate and tremendous melodic and rhythmic music based just on that simple, tiny tune. I reckon he was just noodling at the keyboard.
Wow. Take a breath, Joe. Note that I was agreeing with you (and started to help flesh out your list of plenty).
All I'm suggesting is that there's a fair number of new tunes that really *are* just scales, the first tune in that Brendan Ring clip being a prime example. And that does not a "great tune" make.
One mans meat and all that. I found the kane sisters leave me cold. uninterested. it doesnt mean their tunes are sheeeit, or their playing , Just that I find them uninteresting. both the lenawee reel and the next do next to nothing for me. too....civilised....though i enjoyed the second half of the lenawee, just about starts to get there.
Will, I would agree there are a sea of mediocre or worse modern tunes. The truth is there always have been but the ones that appeal to enough people survive. We will always have tunes that some people love while others can't see why they could possibly like them. There are far more tunes that have disappeared that have survived. All you have to do is look through old books (please nobody start a dots @@@) to find rakes of utterly crap glorified scale tunes. To me, part of the beauty of this music is that it's appeal is very different to different people for different reasons.
I just can't understand how people can describe tunes as crap. It's just down to taste. I don't like hornpipes, just can't see the appeal, but knowing that some people love them I would never describe them as crap.
If you take a look at a top comedian's joke book you'll see that many of the jokes aren't all that impressive in cold print. But when that comedian delivers them live on stage with all the subtle inflections and timing - that's a far different matter.
For "comedian" read "musician", and for "joke(s)" read "tune(s)".
oh man i really get a kick outta sum of the people on this site. thats fine if you like the tunes, i dont judge people on their musical tastes. but i do have a problem with you telling me i dont hav a wide taste in music. u base that opinion on me not liking these TWO tunes! come on now! i know what like and i dont like those 'tunes'. I THINK (theres the important bit) that they dont have enough character to last. they may sound complex but at the heart of it they're more than likely not, not that it matters really though, there are plenty of beautiful paddy fahey, junior crehan,etc. tunes out there that sound much nicer and are not complex and then those that are complex, knowing paddy fahey! of course there are really old tunes that are bad aswell, look through oneills and there are plenty of forgettable ones, you'l be surprised.
i listen to lots of music not just irish, jazz, greek (seeing as i play greek bouzouki), classical. loads of stuff. i dont see where the composer is coming from with those tunes i have to say.
An important difference for today's shoddy tunes compared to yesteryear's--200 years ago, people weren't plastering every new tune onto CDs and selling them or onto YouTube.Today, we get to hear all sorts of junk that's never been vetted by the folk process.
This is such a boring topic - over and over again. In 50 years there'll be people saying - god - I hate those old has been tunes like Clodaghs big day. Some people like them and some people dont. And I'll tell you one thing - If I walked into a session and all they did is hack out the old lame tunes like St Annes and the kesh - I would first throw up from disgust and secondly make sure I never went there again...
And again - I dont agree with tune being around for a long time purely because they are good - there are loads of things that have been around a long time that are crap - take miracle whip for example. Or The Captain Pugwash....
Yes -youre right bogman - I shouldnt say crap. Just that I personally dont like the kesh. And I personally do like some other tunes, and its all personal taste and I hate how every does the this is good and this is bad thing on this site. It drives me insane - and then I react and then I get mad and then I make people mad at me....sighhhhh
"An important difference for today's shoddy tunes compared to yesteryear's--200 years ago, people weren't plastering every new tune onto CDs and selling them or onto YouTube.Today, we get to hear all sorts of junk that's never been vetted by the folk process."
Yes, that's true, youtube brings up out of tunes I don't like too. It also brings up lots of terrible playing that would never have got past the kitchen table in the past. In fact, there is a lot more terrible playing than tunes on You Tube IMO.
For YouTube of the past read O'Niells in Ireland and Atholl Collection in Scotland. Piles of dross and copycat tunes written to fill paper. There have always been piles of mediocre tunes.
I do find it quite amusing though that here we all have a very similar musical taste, one that many of the mainstream audience can't understand and think is sheee-ite. But within it there is the micro taste thing going on. I don't like hornpipes, bb doesn't like the Kesh, Ionnanas doesn't like the Kane sisters, some people hate Lunasa and bizarrely someone slagged polkas the other day - - - my life would be ruined without polkas
You're right, bogman, it *is* amusing. I seriously don't understand the blanket "I dont like hornpipes", though. There's some truly beautiful tunes out there ...
Will do you like the Banshee? Looking at your posts on this discussion I reckon you/ll HATE it.
As a fiddler I think it's fun to play, I like playing shivers...and I like playing up in third position, finding a tune that does bot of these is well good for me.
Let me get this straight, the second tune is called the Lasher, right?
Meh - If I find a hornpipe and like the tune, then I just think - this should have been a reel. There is no reason really for it I dont think -I just dont like the *swung* feel to hornpipes.
Very interesting. I always thought the point was to be able to share tunes with people. If all you do is grind out modern, obscure biscuits that just you and your clique know, isn't that defeating the purpose a bit?
bb, would you rather walk into a session and have them play a bunch of obscure, modern tunes that you don't know?
Ah well, to each their own. Me, I like sharing tunes. Couldn't care less how common or rare they are. Let's have them together, and have a good time.
Well - yes - because then I'd get motivated to learn said tunes that I had never heard before that session. I know people - many people in fact, who learnt a core bunch of tunes and never anything else - same tunes at every session, every week, every year. Where is the fun in that?
Oh and its not about how common or how rare. Its just that I firmly believe that just because a tune has been around for yonks and was composed by someone who has passed on does not make it a good tune. Some tunes are crap as I said before - both common and modern and obscure etc. And everyone has their own taste....which is ok - because otherwise everyone would be playing the exact same tunes and that would be boring.
How is it being elitist exactly -I'm just saying what I like and dislike. I dont like capsicum...does that mean I am a vegetable elitist? Its OK to like some tunes and not others....it isnt elitist in the slightest. Its human. And I never trust those people who say ' I love all irish tunes, they are all beautiful' because its usually followed closely by ' The celtic spirit of my ancestors runs through my veins'.
In regards to the session, how long would it really take to learn enough tunes to have a fufilling session? I mean really - not long (Ive done it heaps - every time I move to a new country or city in fact) I just getting sick of playing the same thing every week - same as I'd get sick of eating icecream if I had it every day.
It kind of annoys me (no offence SWFL), people whose ONLY aim is to share tunes and have a nice friendly time. Give me a session any day full of awesome tunes, only a tenth of which I know, over one full of common ones that everybody knows.
Well I can't help but point out that "awesome" and "common" are not mutually exclusive categories. For instance, Dr. Gilbert's, Sgt. Early's Dream, and The Morning Dew are both awesome and common. In fact, they are common ***because*** they're awesome.
And no, D.J.F., I don't hate the Banshee. That you'd think so based on my posts here suggests that you completely missed my point. The Banshee is a good example of taking bits of scales and arppeggios and making something interesting out of them. In contrast, that first tune on the Brendan Ring clip is just an obvious scale pattern.
I'm not the one here saying which tunes are "crap"--just that some are more shoddily constructed than others. It's fine by me if some people really like a tune that is nothing more than an embellished scale. But I also think it's healthy to understand at least a little about a tune's form and structure, and to use that understanding to inform your taste. Because if you don't learn something about the music you listen to and play, you might as well stick with Top 40 radio.
Ah Joe, it’s a tale of the Town and the Country, it truly is. Don't know if I'll ever live in a big, booming location for 'the music' with tons of high-flying musicians crankin' wild tunes ain't nobody heard before. Perhaps some day. I'm a single Dad with a group of tight knit musician friends stretched out across the suburbs, miles and miles from the nearest city. Every one of us has tunes we all haven't learned yet, and a few of us (myself included) bring new stuff to the table all the time.
We also like to play lots of old chestnuts that we all know. In fact, that's what we do the most. Not sure if we should feel badly because of it, or if we should feel somehow less-than-par. We certainly don't. We consider ourselves quiet, country folk. Your flashy big-city ways are fun and interesting yet not always hospitable.
I take your point on the 'each to his/her own' type of thing, bb. But I just don't get how anyone can dismiss a whole category of tunes, especially when they're such an important part of the tradition. Are you interested in Irish music? I mean, if someone were to say, well, I DETEST redowas, I could sort of cope with that ...
[appended not to say that I'm joking in any part of what I said above, but merely to indicate that no malice was intended]
jaysus! doesn't like hornpipes! fair enough, but have to warn you you're cutting out a large part of the tradition there. i feel sorry for you that you'll never get to hear recordings like coleman playing the wonder hornpipe and the stage and the western, frankie's humours of galway, or mary bergins mrs galvins. you're missin out on some important and classic recordings i have to say. ah well.
"i feel sorry for you that you'll never get to hear recordings like coleman" Ehh? What are you on about? What have recordings got to do with not liking hornpipes?
Oh for god sake SWFL! I just told you what I like and didnt like - I didnt sneer - if anyone is being elitist and high and mighty and holier than thou -It is you. Kiddos? really? Why dont you just grow up. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Although you wouldnt know it the way you are going on.
No no - I hate irish music. What is Irish music anyway? I just hang around boards like this spouting stuff I know nothing about because I have no life. I dont actually play anything...just have all kinds of weird and sub par opinions. Its obvious I havent a clue....damn - all that time wasted when I could have been doing something interesting like listening to the top 40.
And I know plenty ofn really amazing musicians who dont like hornpipes - and others who dont like polkas, and others who dont like slides. It doesnt make them less of a musician in my eyes. It just means they have different tatses. Elitist my foot.
Oh dear SWFL - I just listened to your soundfiles and realised that you have recorded St Annes reel. Now I understand where all they spite is coming from. Sorry to offend - it just isnt my favourite tune.
not too bright r ye bogman! what i said if you read it properly was 'recordings like coleman PLAYING ...blah blah and then i listed off some recordings of hornpipes. obviously i came to the conclusion that because bb doesn't like hornpipes than she probably wouldn't like listening to them. not an unusual thing to do bogman. i dont think anyone is offended bb, i wouldn't particuarly like slides and polkas, i know a few but i wouldn't play them that often. im sure u no urself not to take anything too seriously on this site. lol.
I like slides. But have to say I only just got into them recenetly..and Ive been around trad my whole life - so you never know. I might one day wake up and like hornpipes
I had a bt of a thought at the session tonight, bb ... I wonder if you might like hornpipes a bit better if you played them slower? I'm dead serious about this. When I was taught how to play a hornpipe, many moons ago, I was told that it was a very serious sort of tune. I was taught to think of them as 'stately'. That word's never left me. I sometimes play them too fast myself, but I'm never sorry when I play them the right speed - try them about mm 54 per half bar.
Paddy Keenan doing really fancy things with them and making them sound almost reel-like. (the picture quality of this video sucks but you can hear what he's doing fine): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fRzgAZk1DY
I used to play the hornpipe standards and everyone at my session hated me. Now I'm into the pretty ones like Harp & Shamrock, Belharbour, Queen of the West etc. - I get fewer evil looks when I play those. I just had a vivid image of myself in a brightly-lit primetime television commercial wearing a sweater set and promoting hornpipes much like smiling happy housewives promote mops. ack.
not to be a pest, but I wouldn't have called that first clip (the MacDara one) "straight" - it sounds very swingy to me. But maybe you mean straight in a different way - like in that he's wearing a button down shirt? Okay, I'm a pest, sorry...
Thanks for posting these, TheSilverSpear, great stuff. Just to give my opinion, given that this *is* about personal taste, the only two I didn't really like were Paddy Keenan and Jarlath. I *loved* the ceili band. How could you not like them? Great, old-fashioned sound, with loads of rhythm, and real bounce.
When I wrote swingy I meant like the ceili band -- I suppose playing with a really emphatic, bouncy dotted rhythm. The fiddle player isn't doing that. I may not be entirely accurate with my musical terminology but I know what I mean when I hear it played.
Three years ago I would have run away from that last recording. Now I quite like it. Those old pipers did some wild stuff.
I will admit that the ceili band was my least favourite of those. I love the ceili band bouncy style for reels but prefer a bit of straightness, if you sort of comprehend what I am trying to say, in my hornpipes.
ah - I see what you meant. "straight" to me implies an unyielding dance rhythm such as a ceili band plays, and "swingy" means there's some pushing and pulling of notes happening. But I haven't studied those terms properly. Nice clips though - thanks for posting them.
Good for you. Out of interest, the reason I didn't like the two I flagged so much was that it didn;t sound trad to me. To me, that sort of stuff is doing something different with trad tunes. Nothing wrong with that. But I like trad.
Ah, but what is a "traditional" style of playing as opposed to not? Sticky question.
I finally found this recording of Brian McNamara playing a couple hornpipes. I was looking for his stuff last night, as he loves hornpipes and plays them at a very stately pace but not with a heavily dotted rhythm -- a wee bit of "swing" but not tons of it. The second one especially (The Humours of Tullycrine) has a very driving sort of feel to it. I love how he plays them.
I am pleased that bogman is reconsidering his relationship to hornpipes. It is easy to get turned off -- in Scotland (and lots of places but it seems to be much more of a rampant problem here than in Colorado and parts of Ireland) you don't have to look very hard to find people detroying tunes like Off to California and Boys of Bluehill and of course Harvest Home. But that is not the only answer! There are gorgeous hornpipes and if played well they can sound amazing.
for my money," Mrs Crotty's" (the first one ) gets the prize in the Brian McNamara clip. Talk about stately-simple yet elegant, a true gem of a tune. That's why i love the hornpipes!
I haven't been able to find Mrs Crotty's on this site (after quite a bit of searching). If anybody can find it here under a different title, let me know. If not, I'll add it. It was one of the tunes that Gearoid O hAllmhurain taught in the Catskills this year.
Yeah, Mrs. Crotty's has been stuck in my head all day after I posted that, even though I don't know it to play and was in fact practicing the other one this afternoon. Maybe I will learn it tomorrow. That usually stops them from looping in my head for some reason.
What on EARTH is this tune?
What on EARTH is this tune?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=G1T2LZqrbzY&feature=related
what's the second tune called? (starts at about 01:44)
I've learnt the first 'un and I want the second one
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
That first tune is a cracker! and thanks to the session i have the dots!
Thanks Jeremy.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
what's the first one called?
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by snowyowl
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
1.) "Maverick Angels" C: Brendan Ring
Key signature: b minor
Submitted on June 24th 2007 by No Cause For Alarm.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7397
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
The Lasher??? - also written by Brendan Ring.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Bogman
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
No idea, but they ROCK, whatever they are! Thank you Dan!
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Huh. Nice playing, but the tunes themselves leave me cold. So many "new" tunes are just steroidal scales or arppeggios. Meh.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
... as are many old tunes.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
No, a few old tunes are, but nearly all the ones that were truly "steroidal scales or arppeggios" have gone by the wayside. As will new tunes like that first one Ring plays on the video clip.
See, even a tunes like Tripping Upstairs does more melodically and modally than that ho-hum downhill scale run Ring calls a tune.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Personal taste Will. I love these two tunes.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Bogman
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Me too bogman, though the first i am learning since i heard it here today, the second didnt bite me in the same way...
Like you say, personal taste.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Yeah, I agree with Will here, for the most part. It's the playing that makes these tunes exciting. In my earlier days of playing, I used to inspired by listening to Lúnasa, or the like, playing a tune. I'd go learn the tune, just to find that it was a fairly boring tune overall, and the playing is what I found interesting.
These particular tunes seem rather rhythmic to me, which is fine, I really like a lot of rhythmic tunes, and the playing here sounds great. But as melodies, they're rather uninteresting. If you're looking for interesting melodies, give me Ed Reavy or Paddy Fahey any day over that stuff...
(I'm not saying that rhythmic tunes don't have their place in the tradition...)
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
used to *be* inspired, that is... (I was so inspired, I forgot a word!)
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Reverend
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Its just like any tune really -either old or new - some are utter complete sh*te and some are good - in both styles...old and new. personally I like those two - but there are plenty of new tunes I think are lame. And there are plenty of old tunes that are lame.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
With the old ones, you know whether they're good or not - they wouldn't still be played if they weren't. With new ones, you have to wait and see. And it then becomes a matter of personal taste. I couldn't stand these two. But that's probably just me. And maybe Will ...
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
The second tune doesn't grab me but I do like the first. The scale reminds me of Greek / Balkan / Klezmer clarinet stuff.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by nicholas
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
im sorry there, but those tunes are sheee-ite. they dont sound nice to the ear at all, and even i have a wide taste in music. the first one is an unnattractive 'collection' of notes (doesn't sound like music at all) stuck together with adhesive in an attempt to make a tune. it sounds like he's makin it up as he goes along. there is no 'cohesion' to the tune at all. thats my opinion. i agree with benhall..couldn't stand them.
certainly doesn't remind me of any balkan or greek tune that i've heard. horrible stuff. i like some new tunes, but the best new ones are, john carty said, the ones that sound like they've been around for ages.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
It would be interesting to hear what a good fiddler could make of those two tunes. I've got a feeling that the whistle may not be the ideal instrument for them.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
fiddleruairi - obviously you don't have such a wide taste in music as you seem to think you do, as some of us really like those tunes...
And it's not MEANT to sound Balkan or Greek. Or indeed Irish, for that matter. They're just tunes, like em or leave em. And no, there's plenty of fantastic tunes that yes, sound undoubtedly modern, and no, are not by any means steroidal scales or arpeggios, and yes, fit perfectly into the tradition.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5763
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2465
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2410
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1497
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Four tunes doesn't translate into "plenty," eh?
Mind, I think there *are* some really fine modern tunes out there. Just that they're the few in a sea of mediocre (or worse) modern tunes.
Some fine modern tunes that come to mind:
Kye's Reel (Liz Kane) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2533
The Lenawee Reel (Liz Kane) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2535
Jig for Jimmy (Liz Kane) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4534
Sailing through the Narrows (John McCusker) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/491
Come Back with My Bloody Car (Donogh Hennessy) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/5847
A Tune for Frankie (Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh) http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1885
and so on. The point is that these are well-formed melodies, not just a scale or arppeggio exercise. Any half-competent player can make a "tune" out of noodling through a scale:
K: Em
~B3G ~A3F|~G3E FEDF|~E3F GFGA| Bdef gfed:|
Bleh. Takes all of 7 seconds and no cognitive or emotional input. Bleh.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
I am very sorry, Will, that I didn't trawl through the whole of thesession.org to substantiate my claim of "plenty". I will try harder next time.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Beethoven's 5th symphony starts off with just 4 notes "ggg e2", and then he goes on to write 502 bars of intricate and tremendous melodic and rhythmic music based just on that simple, tiny tune. I reckon he was just noodling at the keyboard.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Wow. Take a breath, Joe. Note that I was agreeing with you (and started to help flesh out your list of plenty).
All I'm suggesting is that there's a fair number of new tunes that really *are* just scales, the first tune in that Brendan Ring clip being a prime example. And that does not a "great tune" make.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
One mans meat and all that. I found the kane sisters leave me cold. uninterested. it doesnt mean their tunes are sheeeit, or their playing , Just that I find them uninteresting. both the lenawee reel and the next do next to nothing for me. too....civilised....though i enjoyed the second half of the lenawee, just about starts to get there.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Will, I would agree there are a sea of mediocre or worse modern tunes. The truth is there always have been but the ones that appeal to enough people survive. We will always have tunes that some people love while others can't see why they could possibly like them. There are far more tunes that have disappeared that have survived. All you have to do is look through old books (please nobody start a dots @@@) to find rakes of utterly crap glorified scale tunes. To me, part of the beauty of this music is that it's appeal is very different to different people for different reasons.
I just can't understand how people can describe tunes as crap. It's just down to taste. I don't like hornpipes, just can't see the appeal, but knowing that some people love them I would never describe them as crap.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Bogman
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
If you take a look at a top comedian's joke book you'll see that many of the jokes aren't all that impressive in cold print. But when that comedian delivers them live on stage with all the subtle inflections and timing - that's a far different matter.
For "comedian" read "musician", and for "joke(s)" read "tune(s)".
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
GREAT analogy lazyhound. We should try to remember that one for the next epic dots debate.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
oh really joe! lol.
oh man i really get a kick outta sum of the people on this site. thats fine if you like the tunes, i dont judge people on their musical tastes. but i do have a problem with you telling me i dont hav a wide taste in music. u base that opinion on me not liking these TWO tunes! come on now! i know what like and i dont like those 'tunes'. I THINK (theres the important bit) that they dont have enough character to last. they may sound complex but at the heart of it they're more than likely not, not that it matters really though, there are plenty of beautiful paddy fahey, junior crehan,etc. tunes out there that sound much nicer and are not complex and then those that are complex, knowing paddy fahey! of course there are really old tunes that are bad aswell, look through oneills and there are plenty of forgettable ones, you'l be surprised.
i listen to lots of music not just irish, jazz, greek (seeing as i play greek bouzouki), classical. loads of stuff. i dont see where the composer is coming from with those tunes i have to say.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
An important difference for today's shoddy tunes compared to yesteryear's--200 years ago, people weren't plastering every new tune onto CDs and selling them or onto YouTube.Today, we get to hear all sorts of junk that's never been vetted by the folk process.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
This is such a boring topic - over and over again. In 50 years there'll be people saying - god - I hate those old has been tunes like Clodaghs big day. Some people like them and some people dont. And I'll tell you one thing - If I walked into a session and all they did is hack out the old lame tunes like St Annes and the kesh - I would first throw up from disgust and secondly make sure I never went there again...
And again - I dont agree with tune being around for a long time purely because they are good - there are loads of things that have been around a long time that are crap - take miracle whip for example. Or The Captain Pugwash....
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Yes -youre right bogman - I shouldnt say crap. Just that I personally dont like the kesh. And I personally do like some other tunes, and its all personal taste and I hate how every does the this is good and this is bad thing on this site. It drives me insane - and then I react and then I get mad and then I make people mad at me....sighhhhh
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Do you mean the Trumpet, bb? Great tune. Give it a chance.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
No thanks, there are loads of modern tunes out there I can waste my time on
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
"An important difference for today's shoddy tunes compared to yesteryear's--200 years ago, people weren't plastering every new tune onto CDs and selling them or onto YouTube.Today, we get to hear all sorts of junk that's never been vetted by the folk process."
Yes, that's true, youtube brings up out of tunes I don't like too. It also brings up lots of terrible playing that would never have got past the kitchen table in the past. In fact, there is a lot more terrible playing than tunes on You Tube IMO.
For YouTube of the past read O'Niells in Ireland and Atholl Collection in Scotland. Piles of dross and copycat tunes written to fill paper. There have always been piles of mediocre tunes.
I do find it quite amusing though that here we all have a very similar musical taste, one that many of the mainstream audience can't understand and think is sheee-ite. But within it there is the micro taste thing going on. I don't like hornpipes, bb doesn't like the Kesh, Ionnanas doesn't like the Kane sisters, some people hate Lunasa and bizarrely someone slagged polkas the other day - - - my life would be ruined without polkas
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Bogman
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
I dont like hornpipes either
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
You're right, bogman, it *is* amusing. I seriously don't understand the blanket "I dont like hornpipes", though. There's some truly beautiful tunes out there ...
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
I know, I don't understand it myself.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Bogman
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Wow.
I like the tune coz it's different innit?
Will do you like the Banshee? Looking at your posts on this discussion I reckon you/ll HATE it.
As a fiddler I think it's fun to play, I like playing shivers...and I like playing up in third position, finding a tune that does bot of these is well good for me.
Let me get this straight, the second tune is called the Lasher, right?
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Meh - If I find a hornpipe and like the tune, then I just think - this should have been a reel. There is no reason really for it I dont think -I just dont like the *swung* feel to hornpipes.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Very interesting. I always thought the point was to be able to share tunes with people. If all you do is grind out modern, obscure biscuits that just you and your clique know, isn't that defeating the purpose a bit?
bb, would you rather walk into a session and have them play a bunch of obscure, modern tunes that you don't know?
Ah well, to each their own. Me, I like sharing tunes. Couldn't care less how common or rare they are. Let's have them together, and have a good time.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Well - yes - because then I'd get motivated to learn said tunes that I had never heard before that session. I know people - many people in fact, who learnt a core bunch of tunes and never anything else - same tunes at every session, every week, every year. Where is the fun in that?
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
"...should have been a reel..." ?!?!?
For REEL!?!?
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
You'd rather go to a session where you didn't know any of the tunes?
Weekly, or for a visit? A visit, OK, but if I'm never coming back, and I never hear those obscure tunes again, then what's the point?
If it's a new local I'm going to attend, then sure, get cracking, learn what the locals know.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
But the great thing about hornpipes is that you can fill 'em full of triplets.. I mean, look at the Independence...
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1038
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
I'm sorry bb, I don't mean to pick, like I said, to each their own. I guess the whole elitism thing kinda turns me off.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Oh and its not about how common or how rare. Its just that I firmly believe that just because a tune has been around for yonks and was composed by someone who has passed on does not make it a good tune. Some tunes are crap as I said before - both common and modern and obscure etc. And everyone has their own taste....which is ok - because otherwise everyone would be playing the exact same tunes and that would be boring.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
How is it being elitist exactly -I'm just saying what I like and dislike. I dont like capsicum...does that mean I am a vegetable elitist? Its OK to like some tunes and not others....it isnt elitist in the slightest. Its human. And I never trust those people who say ' I love all irish tunes, they are all beautiful' because its usually followed closely by ' The celtic spirit of my ancestors runs through my veins'.
In regards to the session, how long would it really take to learn enough tunes to have a fufilling session? I mean really - not long (Ive done it heaps - every time I move to a new country or city in fact) I just getting sick of playing the same thing every week - same as I'd get sick of eating icecream if I had it every day.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Also - they wouldnt be obscure if everyone learnt them
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
It kind of annoys me (no offence SWFL), people whose ONLY aim is to share tunes and have a nice friendly time. Give me a session any day full of awesome tunes, only a tenth of which I know, over one full of common ones that everybody knows.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Yup - me too Joe.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Elitism = sneering at The Kesh and St. Anne's.
Elitism = sneering at people who's goal is to have tunes with others and a good time
Bless you kiddos both!
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Ah, SWFL, you'll learn one day. Maybe when you're younger.
Wait...
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Well I can't help but point out that "awesome" and "common" are not mutually exclusive categories. For instance, Dr. Gilbert's, Sgt. Early's Dream, and The Morning Dew are both awesome and common. In fact, they are common ***because*** they're awesome.
And no, D.J.F., I don't hate the Banshee. That you'd think so based on my posts here suggests that you completely missed my point. The Banshee is a good example of taking bits of scales and arppeggios and making something interesting out of them. In contrast, that first tune on the Brendan Ring clip is just an obvious scale pattern.
I'm not the one here saying which tunes are "crap"--just that some are more shoddily constructed than others. It's fine by me if some people really like a tune that is nothing more than an embellished scale. But I also think it's healthy to understand at least a little about a tune's form and structure, and to use that understanding to inform your taste. Because if you don't learn something about the music you listen to and play, you might as well stick with Top 40 radio.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Ah Joe, it’s a tale of the Town and the Country, it truly is. Don't know if I'll ever live in a big, booming location for 'the music' with tons of high-flying musicians crankin' wild tunes ain't nobody heard before. Perhaps some day. I'm a single Dad with a group of tight knit musician friends stretched out across the suburbs, miles and miles from the nearest city. Every one of us has tunes we all haven't learned yet, and a few of us (myself included) bring new stuff to the table all the time.
We also like to play lots of old chestnuts that we all know. In fact, that's what we do the most. Not sure if we should feel badly because of it, or if we should feel somehow less-than-par. We certainly don't. We consider ourselves quiet, country folk. Your flashy big-city ways are fun and interesting yet not always hospitable.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
I take your point on the 'each to his/her own' type of thing, bb. But I just don't get how anyone can dismiss a whole category of tunes, especially when they're such an important part of the tradition. Are you interested in Irish music? I mean, if someone were to say, well, I DETEST redowas, I could sort of cope with that ...
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
jaysus! doesn't like hornpipes! fair enough, but have to warn you you're cutting out a large part of the tradition there. i feel sorry for you that you'll never get to hear recordings like coleman playing the wonder hornpipe and the stage and the western, frankie's humours of galway, or mary bergins mrs galvins. you're missin out on some important and classic recordings i have to say. ah well.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
"i feel sorry for you that you'll never get to hear recordings like coleman" Ehh? What are you on about? What have recordings got to do with not liking hornpipes?
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Bogman
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Oh for god sake SWFL! I just told you what I like and didnt like - I didnt sneer - if anyone is being elitist and high and mighty and holier than thou -It is you. Kiddos? really? Why dont you just grow up. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Although you wouldnt know it the way you are going on.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
No no - I hate irish music. What is Irish music anyway? I just hang around boards like this spouting stuff I know nothing about because I have no life. I dont actually play anything...just have all kinds of weird and sub par opinions. Its obvious I havent a clue....damn - all that time wasted when I could have been doing something interesting like listening to the top 40.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
And I know plenty ofn really amazing musicians who dont like hornpipes - and others who dont like polkas, and others who dont like slides. It doesnt make them less of a musician in my eyes. It just means they have different tatses. Elitist my foot.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Oh dear SWFL - I just listened to your soundfiles and realised that you have recorded St Annes reel. Now I understand where all they spite is coming from. Sorry to offend - it just isnt my favourite tune.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
not too bright r ye bogman! what i said if you read it properly was 'recordings like coleman PLAYING ...blah blah and then i listed off some recordings of hornpipes. obviously i came to the conclusion that because bb doesn't like hornpipes than she probably wouldn't like listening to them. not an unusual thing to do bogman. i dont think anyone is offended bb, i wouldn't particuarly like slides and polkas, i know a few but i wouldn't play them that often. im sure u no urself not to take anything too seriously on this site. lol.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
anyway, back to the point. gimme these tunes over those lifeless ones up top anyday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWdMl8HD8xE&feature=related
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
I like slides. But have to say I only just got into them recenetly..and Ive been around trad my whole life - so you never know. I might one day wake up and like hornpipes
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
sure thats it like, you might hear one recording of a hornpipe that ight spur you on to listen to others, it is the same with any tune.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
I had a bt of a thought at the session tonight, bb ... I wonder if you might like hornpipes a bit better if you played them slower? I'm dead serious about this. When I was taught how to play a hornpipe, many moons ago, I was told that it was a very serious sort of tune. I was taught to think of them as 'stately'. That word's never left me. I sometimes play them too fast myself, but I'm never sorry when I play them the right speed - try them about mm 54 per half bar.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Hornpipes can also be played with more or less swing.
This guy is playing quite straight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcH3Om6A21A. Lovely stuff.
And this Ceili band's interpretation may be why you don't like them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OacB9CywjmE
Peter and Kitty playing them with moderate swing and very simply, but tastefully: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5l211NlYto
Paddy Keenan doing really fancy things with them and making them sound almost reel-like. (the picture quality of this video sucks but you can hear what he's doing fine): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fRzgAZk1DY
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
I used to play the hornpipe standards and everyone at my session hated me. Now I'm into the pretty ones like Harp & Shamrock, Belharbour, Queen of the West etc. - I get fewer evil looks when I play those. I just had a vivid image of myself in a brightly-lit primetime television commercial wearing a sweater set and promoting hornpipes much like smiling happy housewives promote mops. ack.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by airport
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Then there is Jarlath: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4mwhttyxag
For something totally different, Paddy Cronin: http://www.archive.org/details/PaddyCroninCroninsHornpipeFitzgeraldsHornpipe
And for yet another level of interpretation (and a bit of an acquired taste): http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/musicfiles/mp3s/martin_greencastle.mp3
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
not to be a pest, but I wouldn't have called that first clip (the MacDara one) "straight" - it sounds very swingy to me. But maybe you mean straight in a different way - like in that he's wearing a button down shirt? Okay, I'm a pest, sorry...
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by airport
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
*Is* that last one an acquire taste?
Thanks for posting these, TheSilverSpear, great stuff. Just to give my opinion, given that this *is* about personal taste, the only two I didn't really like were Paddy Keenan and Jarlath. I *loved* the ceili band. How could you not like them? Great, old-fashioned sound, with loads of rhythm, and real bounce.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Paddy and Jarlath are two I liked best!
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by bb
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
When I wrote swingy I meant like the ceili band -- I suppose playing with a really emphatic, bouncy dotted rhythm. The fiddle player isn't doing that. I may not be entirely accurate with my musical terminology but I know what I mean when I hear it played.
Three years ago I would have run away from that last recording. Now I quite like it. Those old pipers did some wild stuff.
I will admit that the ceili band was my least favourite of those. I love the ceili band bouncy style for reels but prefer a bit of straightness, if you sort of comprehend what I am trying to say, in my hornpipes.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
ah - I see what you meant. "straight" to me implies an unyielding dance rhythm such as a ceili band plays, and "swingy" means there's some pushing and pulling of notes happening. But I haven't studied those terms properly. Nice clips though - thanks for posting them.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by airport
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
I found this earlier discussion on swing:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12796/comments
I was feeling guilty about accusing ceili bands of playing without swing.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by airport
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Mmmm, liked the MacDarra Ó Raghallaigh clip and all the piping ones. I need to give hornpipes another chance I think.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by Bogman
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Good for you. Out of interest, the reason I didn't like the two I flagged so much was that it didn;t sound trad to me. To me, that sort of stuff is doing something different with trad tunes. Nothing wrong with that. But I like trad.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Ah, but what is a "traditional" style of playing as opposed to not? Sticky question.
I finally found this recording of Brian McNamara playing a couple hornpipes. I was looking for his stuff last night, as he loves hornpipes and plays them at a very stately pace but not with a heavily dotted rhythm -- a wee bit of "swing" but not tons of it. The second one especially (The Humours of Tullycrine) has a very driving sort of feel to it. I love how he plays them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JZPjoySqno
Here is Tim Collins playing the Humours of Tullycrine with a little bit more bounce. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2M8P97N0Is.
I am pleased that bogman is reconsidering his relationship to hornpipes. It is easy to get turned off -- in Scotland (and lots of places but it seems to be much more of a rampant problem here than in Colorado and parts of Ireland) you don't have to look very hard to find people detroying tunes like Off to California and Boys of Bluehill and of course Harvest Home. But that is not the only answer! There are gorgeous hornpipes and if played well they can sound amazing.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Finbar Dwyer playing the Derry Hornpipe, doesn't get much better than that!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-aEnSY7z6o
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
for my money," Mrs Crotty's" (the first one ) gets the prize in the Brian McNamara clip. Talk about stately-simple yet elegant, a true gem of a tune. That's why i love the hornpipes!
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
I haven't been able to find Mrs Crotty's on this site (after quite a bit of searching). If anybody can find it here under a different title, let me know. If not, I'll add it. It was one of the tunes that Gearoid O hAllmhurain taught in the Catskills this year.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: What on EARTH is this tune?
Yeah, Mrs. Crotty's has been stuck in my head all day after I posted that, even though I don't know it to play and was in fact practicing the other one this afternoon. Maybe I will learn it tomorrow. That usually stops them from looping in my head for some reason.
# Posted on September 18th 2008 by TheSilverSpear