hi, i was wondering what type of saxophone is best to buy for playing trad music? i like the way they sound and Im thinking about starting but i dont really know anything about them. i also know there are a lot of people on here who have very strong opinions about such matters and would like to remind them that they dont have to reply to this thread. the last thing thats needed is another long drawn out discussion about "proper" instruments
I saw a guy playing a soprano in a session - he was very good but I guess it takes some tricky fingering as a soprano is in Eb unless he pulled the mouthpiece right out.
Saxophones do have a place in the music, based on bands in the 20's. John Carty certainly doesn't have a problem with it, and I respect his opinions more than any of the self-professed "experts" that are so vocal on this websit.
Buy a sax, learn all the tunes and go crash some session! You're welcome at ours anytime.
I would guess you could have an Eb soprano altered to play in D, but I know nothing about saxophones.
A soprano is considered a concert Bb instrument--if you finger a "d" on a soprano sax like you would on a whistle or flute, the note that sounds is "c." On an Eb alto sax, the "d" fingering gives you a concert "f."
To play along w/the normal fiddle and flute crowd in a session, someone using a Bb horn would have to play tunes a whole step up. However, you can play tunes along with someone using a C whistle or C flute using the same fingerings.
Just don't start by learning those Godawful oom-pa bass lines that seem to come with tenor and lower sax territory. other than that, why not?
Proper session etiquette would be in order-- don't play/back the tune if you don't know it, and if you're feeling shaky, play it extremely quietly. presumably the session musicians will comment on how well it fits in.
If anybody gives you any guff about "trad" music, remind them that a lot of things associated with Ireland and trad music are, properly speaking, neither Irish nor traditional. St Patrick was a Roman, Guinness is English, violins are Italian, the reel is French, the jig (gigue) also French and German and Italian (and both were court music, far removed from pubs), the flute is certainly not Irish, a lot of the tunes come from other traditions, Irish sessions are a 20th century phenomenon, yadda yadda. Not even the fabled harp is Irish, though it was one of the first instruments to be adopted by the Irish chieftains for court music purposes.
At our local session we are sometimes visited by a South American who plays the caja, a box-like thing you sit on and which produces an enormous variety of sounds. He fits in superbly. Then there is the person who is well-versed in Irish music who brings a thing that looks like a sax and which is so long its end sits on the floor. This musician plays oom-pa bass lines and makes all the tunes sound like irish instrumental ABBA.
Thanks very much for all your help (that link to keith donalds website looks good) and your understanding (spledid isolation ... a man after my own tastes) ... proof that this forum does provide help and guidence and not just sarcasm and criticism as has been previously observed
I had some luck with a C melody horn. The fingerings are closer to tin whistle fingerings with a low C. And as if happens, I might be able to hook you up with such a horn - drop me a note if you're interested.
The sax worked well with the Gallowglass Ceili Band right through the sixties and seventies. The Donal Ring Ceili Band from Cork was another band that used the sax successfully around the same era.. Tony Howley was the first guy I saw playing ITM on the sax in London around the early sixties. Mind you Tony was also a dab hand on the flute as well..
Can you tell me which 1920's recordings have sax on them? I'm interested!
Also, I'm wondering if you think that just because the sax is on some 1920's recordings that real Irish musicians of that era appreciated it the same way they would have , say, more traditional instruments?
Dr Funkenstein's explanation of the meaning of "b-flat instrument" was correct, but I should add to that that the saxophone uses basically a seven-finger layout for its "c" scale (which will sound as E-flat or B-flat, or C, depending on the horn - yes, it's confusing). The small finger on the right hand, if I remember correctly, fingers the low C, and there's a B and B-flat (remember to correct for the pitch of the instrument, A and A flat on a tenor horn) below that, operated with the right hand. What does this matter? Well, if you ignore the small finger on the right hand, you have essentially a D minor (=C minor on tenor horn, F minor on alto) scale under your tin whistle fingers, with a conveniently placed sharp for the third and similarly convenient C sharp up at the top.
What all this adds up to is that tin whistle fingerings, with some adjustments, transfer most naturally to a C melody saxophone. Anything else, you'll be transposing like mad and having to use all sorts of awkward fingerings. Not that you couldn't make it work on an alto, but remember that you'd be thinking of everthing in the key of B (alto's "c" sounds an e flat, so actual pitch of d will be played on the alto as "b" - clear?) unless you found a session that played in E flat, then you'd be golden - except that your fingerings would all be off relative to the tin whistle. Playing, say, Miss Monaghan, your first note would be fingered with seven fingers down, the next would be with five, and so forth. So even if you find your E-flat session, you're still sort of out of luck, having to re-learn everything in new fingerings.
Now, all this being said, you might ask why it is that I haven't brought the revolution of saxophone to the Irish trad world. The answer is simple: even on the best instrument for the tunes, I didn't like the sound well enough to keep up the very intensive practice required to play a horn. To play a saxophone even tolerably well requires a lot of development of the musculature of the mouth, which can only be gained by slow and systematic work. If you're really fascinated by the instrument, I think it could be done, and done well - although the begrudgers would always bang on you at the sessions, to hell with them - but if you're only interested, you'll probably wind up with a white elephant horn that you sell at a loss. That's the horn that I could probably arrange to get for you, as the guy I sold it to took it from me as a favor and would probably be willing to sell it on if I contacted him. But if you check on Ebay, you'll find that mine is a very common story, and there are a lot of Conn C-melody horns available at reasonable prices.
Hey, I believe I remember hearing a soprano sax in the Riverdance band. So if it's good enough for Riverdance, it must be good enough of ITM as a whole.
The best places to look for recordings would be to try to find old recordings of the abovementioned ceilidh bands. Short of that, at the racket is the most well-known modern recordings.
Any instrument I pick up and play around with, I always try to play tunes as they're whats in my head. Its inevitable that different instruments will enter (and exit) trad music, because its the musicians who make the music, not the instruments. Tony MacMahon could probably play a Hammond organ and it would sound better than alot of lesser musicians.
The reason the Sax held some ground as an "outsider" instrument? Amplification didn't always exist, and any instrument that could be heard in a dance hall was a benefit. Plus, they were probably widely available and cheap...same reason there are so man Bodhran's at beginner sessions.
check out seamus o donnell with "At the Racket," or Tony Howley, great Trad Sax players.. savage...
if you get a C melody sax you will be able to play in regular sessions as the regualar simialar whistle fingering used on a c sax, will sound in D pitch.. if you get the Eb sax, twud be like playing an F whistle....
Those bands afore-mentioned are not from the 1920's Irish music era at all. As I guessed you were only name dropping (John Carty, Tony MacMAhon) and collecting opinion from others instead of informing people about this topic.
In the 1920's, as far as i know, there were no saxophone players on any Irish Traditional music 78s. Probably the best and earliest sax recordings in this genre were on Paddy Killoran's 1930s band recordings. But all in all, they were still pretty goofey sounding, especially when juxtaposed with his duets with Sweeney and his solo recordings. But I suppose you could say At the Racket did take the inspiration from those early Killoran records, only ATR cashed in on it much more than Killoran did. ATM is more like it.
I would not be at all surprised if MacMahon played the hammond organ and performed Queen hits with Caoimhin O Raghallaigh, Iarla O Lionaird, and the dove of peace - Dave Power, bi-weekly, in the calm of the morning, for a solely vegetarian audience.
Dieseal are good - sax and low whistle. very funky. Quick - run before the trad police come and arrest us for talking about saxaphones in irish music.....shaking in my boots.
Just because it has been done doesn't mean it sounds good.
I don't get 'At the Racket' - I've heard them - just sounds like tired old
1920's proto jazz. Some people like that stuff, I know
I've heard it done relatively well with Scottish/Shetland music. Not sure how it would go with ITM tho.
Breathing would be interesting tho. I've done dance performances with brass bands before... the poor guys nearly pass out after attempting to play ITM.
Well you guys should have a listen to Dieseal -they are pretty full on in terms of sax actually playing the tunes....but they are really very good at what they do. There is some stuff on Youtube I think
Saxophones
Saxophones
hi, i was wondering what type of saxophone is best to buy for playing trad music? i like the way they sound and Im thinking about starting but i dont really know anything about them. i also know there are a lot of people on here who have very strong opinions about such matters and would like to remind them that they dont have to reply to this thread. the last thing thats needed is another long drawn out discussion about "proper" instruments
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by caddy-cruiser
Re: Saxophones
Saturday afternoon - not a very good time to start a wind-up.
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by kuec
Re: Saxophones
its not a wind-up
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by caddy-cruiser
Re: Saxophones
I saw a guy playing a soprano in a session - he was very good but I guess it takes some tricky fingering as a soprano is in Eb unless he pulled the mouthpiece right out.
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by Gromit
Re: Saxophones
Why not write to Keith Donald of Moving Hearts? He's a decent chap and will probably respond to your request.
http://www.keithdonald.com/
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Saxophones
Saxophones do have a place in the music, based on bands in the 20's. John Carty certainly doesn't have a problem with it, and I respect his opinions more than any of the self-professed "experts" that are so vocal on this websit.
Buy a sax, learn all the tunes and go crash some session! You're welcome at ours anytime.
I would guess you could have an Eb soprano altered to play in D, but I know nothing about saxophones.
Cheers
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Saxophones
A soprano is considered a concert Bb instrument--if you finger a "d" on a soprano sax like you would on a whistle or flute, the note that sounds is "c." On an Eb alto sax, the "d" fingering gives you a concert "f."
To play along w/the normal fiddle and flute crowd in a session, someone using a Bb horn would have to play tunes a whole step up. However, you can play tunes along with someone using a C whistle or C flute using the same fingerings.
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Saxophones
Just don't start by learning those Godawful oom-pa bass lines that seem to come with tenor and lower sax territory. other than that, why not?
Proper session etiquette would be in order-- don't play/back the tune if you don't know it, and if you're feeling shaky, play it extremely quietly. presumably the session musicians will comment on how well it fits in.
If anybody gives you any guff about "trad" music, remind them that a lot of things associated with Ireland and trad music are, properly speaking, neither Irish nor traditional. St Patrick was a Roman, Guinness is English, violins are Italian, the reel is French, the jig (gigue) also French and German and Italian (and both were court music, far removed from pubs), the flute is certainly not Irish, a lot of the tunes come from other traditions, Irish sessions are a 20th century phenomenon, yadda yadda. Not even the fabled harp is Irish, though it was one of the first instruments to be adopted by the Irish chieftains for court music purposes.
At our local session we are sometimes visited by a South American who plays the caja, a box-like thing you sit on and which produces an enormous variety of sounds. He fits in superbly. Then there is the person who is well-versed in Irish music who brings a thing that looks like a sax and which is so long its end sits on the floor. This musician plays oom-pa bass lines and makes all the tunes sound like irish instrumental ABBA.
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by chris stolz
Re: Saxophones
Thanks very much for all your help (that link to keith donalds website looks good) and your understanding (spledid isolation ... a man after my own tastes) ... proof that this forum does provide help and guidence and not just sarcasm and criticism as has been previously observed
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by caddy-cruiser
Re: Saxophones
I had some luck with a C melody horn. The fingerings are closer to tin whistle fingerings with a low C. And as if happens, I might be able to hook you up with such a horn - drop me a note if you're interested.
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Saxophones
The sax worked well with the Gallowglass Ceili Band right through the sixties and seventies. The Donal Ring Ceili Band from Cork was another band that used the sax successfully around the same era.. Tony Howley was the first guy I saw playing ITM on the sax in London around the early sixties. Mind you Tony was also a dab hand on the flute as well..
The Gallowglass
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtgV9-0B3F4
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Saxophones
Hello Splendid Isolation.
Can you tell me which 1920's recordings have sax on them? I'm interested!
Also, I'm wondering if you think that just because the sax is on some 1920's recordings that real Irish musicians of that era appreciated it the same way they would have , say, more traditional instruments?
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by The Grand Spy
Re: Saxophones
Dr Funkenstein's explanation of the meaning of "b-flat instrument" was correct, but I should add to that that the saxophone uses basically a seven-finger layout for its "c" scale (which will sound as E-flat or B-flat, or C, depending on the horn - yes, it's confusing). The small finger on the right hand, if I remember correctly, fingers the low C, and there's a B and B-flat (remember to correct for the pitch of the instrument, A and A flat on a tenor horn) below that, operated with the right hand. What does this matter? Well, if you ignore the small finger on the right hand, you have essentially a D minor (=C minor on tenor horn, F minor on alto) scale under your tin whistle fingers, with a conveniently placed sharp for the third and similarly convenient C sharp up at the top.
What all this adds up to is that tin whistle fingerings, with some adjustments, transfer most naturally to a C melody saxophone. Anything else, you'll be transposing like mad and having to use all sorts of awkward fingerings. Not that you couldn't make it work on an alto, but remember that you'd be thinking of everthing in the key of B (alto's "c" sounds an e flat, so actual pitch of d will be played on the alto as "b" - clear?) unless you found a session that played in E flat, then you'd be golden - except that your fingerings would all be off relative to the tin whistle. Playing, say, Miss Monaghan, your first note would be fingered with seven fingers down, the next would be with five, and so forth. So even if you find your E-flat session, you're still sort of out of luck, having to re-learn everything in new fingerings.
Now, all this being said, you might ask why it is that I haven't brought the revolution of saxophone to the Irish trad world. The answer is simple: even on the best instrument for the tunes, I didn't like the sound well enough to keep up the very intensive practice required to play a horn. To play a saxophone even tolerably well requires a lot of development of the musculature of the mouth, which can only be gained by slow and systematic work. If you're really fascinated by the instrument, I think it could be done, and done well - although the begrudgers would always bang on you at the sessions, to hell with them - but if you're only interested, you'll probably wind up with a white elephant horn that you sell at a loss. That's the horn that I could probably arrange to get for you, as the guy I sold it to took it from me as a favor and would probably be willing to sell it on if I contacted him. But if you check on Ebay, you'll find that mine is a very common story, and there are a lot of Conn C-melody horns available at reasonable prices.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Saxophones
Correction: the bottom notes on the saxophone are fingered with the LEFT hand, not the right. Sorry about that.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Saxophones
Hey, I believe I remember hearing a soprano sax in the Riverdance band. So if it's good enough for Riverdance, it must be good enough of ITM as a whole.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by InSearchofCraic
Re: Saxophones
The best places to look for recordings would be to try to find old recordings of the abovementioned ceilidh bands. Short of that, at the racket is the most well-known modern recordings.
Any instrument I pick up and play around with, I always try to play tunes as they're whats in my head. Its inevitable that different instruments will enter (and exit) trad music, because its the musicians who make the music, not the instruments. Tony MacMahon could probably play a Hammond organ and it would sound better than alot of lesser musicians.
The reason the Sax held some ground as an "outsider" instrument? Amplification didn't always exist, and any instrument that could be heard in a dance hall was a benefit. Plus, they were probably widely available and cheap...same reason there are so man Bodhran's at beginner sessions.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Saxophones
check out seamus o donnell with "At the Racket," or Tony Howley, great Trad Sax players.. savage...
if you get a C melody sax you will be able to play in regular sessions as the regualar simialar whistle fingering used on a c sax, will sound in D pitch.. if you get the Eb sax, twud be like playing an F whistle....
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by S.Doherty
Re: Saxophones
Splendid Iso.
Those bands afore-mentioned are not from the 1920's Irish music era at all. As I guessed you were only name dropping (John Carty, Tony MacMAhon) and collecting opinion from others instead of informing people about this topic.
In the 1920's, as far as i know, there were no saxophone players on any Irish Traditional music 78s. Probably the best and earliest sax recordings in this genre were on Paddy Killoran's 1930s band recordings. But all in all, they were still pretty goofey sounding, especially when juxtaposed with his duets with Sweeney and his solo recordings. But I suppose you could say At the Racket did take the inspiration from those early Killoran records, only ATR cashed in on it much more than Killoran did. ATM is more like it.
I would not be at all surprised if MacMahon played the hammond organ and performed Queen hits with Caoimhin O Raghallaigh, Iarla O Lionaird, and the dove of peace - Dave Power, bi-weekly, in the calm of the morning, for a solely vegetarian audience.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by The Grand Spy
Re: Saxophones
Dieseal are good - sax and low whistle. very funky. Quick - run before the trad police come and arrest us for talking about saxaphones in irish music.....shaking in my boots.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by bb
Re: Saxophones
Just because it has been done doesn't mean it sounds good.
I don't get 'At the Racket' - I've heard them - just sounds like tired old
1920's proto jazz. Some people like that stuff, I know
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Hup
Re: Saxophones
I will admit, soprano sax _could_ sound good in ITM. Don't shoot me -
it's in the Riverdance orchestration and blended in pretty well there.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Hup
Re: Saxophones
I've heard it done relatively well with Scottish/Shetland music. Not sure how it would go with ITM tho.
Breathing would be interesting tho. I've done dance performances with brass bands before... the poor guys nearly pass out after attempting to play ITM.
:
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by davydd
Re: Saxophones
Well you guys should have a listen to Dieseal -they are pretty full on in terms of sax actually playing the tunes....but they are really very good at what they do. There is some stuff on Youtube I think
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by bb
Re: Saxophones
Deiseal packed up a dozen years ago. Only the band's second album, 'Sunshine Dances', features a sax (the excellent Richie Buckley who can also be heard on Déanta's 'Whisper of a Secret').
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Saxophones
Whoops, it's 'Sunshine Dance'.
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Floss the Tethers