I have not. I did decide to put aside sheet music for a period of time.
I hoped my purpose would be obvious ~ to develop my aural abilities. It 'seems' to be helping. However, it has not been met with favour from at least one other player. These were the last words I heard last night, "Don't Give up on Sheet Music."
I did not. 63 days ago I posted a thread stating I would learn every new tune by ear. In that discussion I was going to try this for 28 days.
I am now extending this to 1 year.
On 9 July 2009 I will be happy to sight read anything you place in front of me.
Until then I only ask that you play the tune so I might listen. Then I will try to play what I hear.
Cheers!
I think that it's perfectly fine to learn a tune from sheet music as long as you are aware that the pitches written on the sheet don't have to correspont to 12 tone equal temperament, at all costs the actual rhythm is not exactly the same as written down, and that you have to ornament most crotchets and dotted crotchets.
For those who missed it, I tried to go back and find Notes' original thread from way back when he/she initially 'took the pledge' to learn by ear. I couldn't locate it, so you'll have to trust us.
I agree. You shouldn't give up on sheet music but you should never rely completely on sheet music to learn tunes. You should also try to learn tunes by ear (or aurally) by listening to them.
The last set of tunes I pulled off this site were from an Altan album; 'The Cat that ate the Candle' / 'Over the Water to Bessie' / 'Dandy Dinny Cronin' People in our session got copies. The player who advised me not to give up . . . had heard 'Dandy Dinny" & liked the tune. I was happy to oblige. She is not conversant in Abc notation & does not use the internet (or computers).
Yes, sbhikes, she may well be annoyed. I trust she will find another source during my time of auralization.
BTW if you know where Bidwell Park is you know where I live.
benhall1 ~ glad to have the link (28 days) in this thread.
I wonder if your session pal should try learning by ear as well?
I've come across this business of passing bits of sheet music around before. I think some people might have done this in the past in the session I go to as well. Quite often it seems to lead to people learning the tune wrong.
For sesssion playing, I don't even think you can learn stuff off CDs. Sessions themselves have a way of ironing out tunes to produce something that you can clearly recognise as the 'right' tune. If a tune's been through this process, it's normally better to learn it in sessions.
Gosh! That comes over stuffy. Ah wtf, I'm saying it anyway. Take away the suffiness, and I think I've got a point ... which I seem to be expressing badly.
I had some clowns (not bad musicians) sat in the band last night - first tune, I said we will play Harvest Home, Winster Galop, Jimmy Allen - you are bound to know those.
Yes, but we need to play from dots - we haven't got those tunes.
Yes, but you know them - you don't need the dots.
Yes, but it is easier with the dots in front of us.
Needless say, I made them do it without dots although they insisted on dots for the rest of the evening.
I despair - one is a music teacher.
Nobody who needs sheet music to get through a trad tune is anywhere near ready to play in public. It is really easy to memorize these tunes, folk who don't think so are kidding themselves.
To be clear my friend does not play from the sheet. She has forgotten more tunes than I'll ever know.
When she hears a tune she plays along softly. At home she practices from sheet music. In session she pys most of the tunes from memoriztion.
Her opinion ~ she needs all the 'help' she can get,
My opinion ~ her ear is fine . . . better than mine . . . she has a good feel for Irish trad . . . I secretly suspect she has (often) learned tunes (by ear) for which she could not find the sheet music.
I want to thank every one for the support. I welcome any comments from those who use sheet music. I hope to show this thread to my friend. So if anyone has the same perspective as her, please ~ let her know what you think.
I have been thinking about this one. My friend is free to think whatever she wants. I have decided not to show her this thread. Been there ~ done that. We have spent far too many sleepless hours discussing. Too few playing.
I cannot say for certain that playing by ear has, yet, improved my playing. I can say this has vastly improved my appreciation for Irish music & listening in general.
Maybe try thinking of it this way: ***ALL*** playing is playing by ear, if you let it be so. Sheet music is just another medium from which we can hear the tune in our mind's ear.
And ifi that's the case, then why not learn to play without the "middleman" of ink on paper, or watching someone else's fingers, or even asking what key a tune is in, or what note it starts on? Why not spend some quality time really learning how to use your ears?
Sure, the dots and other visual references can be useful. But without the aural dimension, music would not exist. Doesn't it make sense then to play music by giving our ears primacy and honing them and our aural comprehension to their fullest potential? Meaning that visual aides are secondary (at most).
I suspect a lot of decent musicians would dramatically up their game if they just pretended to be blind for a few months and concentrated on ***listening*** the to music.
But this doesn't need to be about converting your friend. Do it for yourself, and see where it takes you. If you give it a thoughtful, whole-hearted try, your example alone may be enough for your sessions friends to see the advantages of using your ears first and foremost, or even exclusively.
As an ear player who just learned to read music in 1994 & still learning-----I value the skill of reading, but find it to be secondary to aural intake & duplication. I find the "classic" repertoire almost entirely necessary to be read and interpreted properly.
on the other hand, I have never found music written for trad to be anywhere near its potential (as played by the pros) and, I might add I have an extreme aversion to ABC notation.
Thanks Will. The last thing I wish to do is coerce or convert anyone to change their ways because I said so. One of my challeges is due to a strange revelation. I have (had) always (often?) picked up tunes by ear until I started playing more Irish traditional. I "discovered" this after folding up the tunebooks (70 days now). I had forgotten how much I simply played what I heard. So it's dawning on me that back in the mid 80's anything I heard & enjoyed I played; regardless of whether I had the sheet or not.
Even when I bought a copy of O'Neill's I played what I heard. Locals were not playing 'according to O'Neill' This was 'remedied' with tunebooks (photocopied cut & paste). Then handouts of tune sets, with variations. Then more exact versions. Followed by Abc. Then I was producing tunebooks. No one could get enough.
"Pssst, Random ~ got any more of them books?"
Next was:
Welcome to The Session
The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive.
I was living the dream. That is when she came to the session. "Yeah we were playing this jig ~ ~ back in the late 70's. Haven't really played Irish in years. Say you know this reel? Oh, you got sheet music. Think I could get some? ;)
I realized I simply enjoy playing session. But instead I was beginnng to make work out of music.
So I do hope to get the full - tilt session going more often.
Cheers!
Heh, I feel your pain. I too have somewhat reluctantly created tunebooks for our local sessions, just to get us all on "the same page" (cringe) so we'd sound less like a 30 car pile up on a foggy interstate....
But then people don't learn to use their ears as well as they should.
So it becomes a regression, just as you cite, Random. We all start off learning music by ear--Happy Birthday, Mary Had a Little Lamb, Inky Dinky Spider, This Old Man.
And then someone shows us the inky dots and before long, we can't play without them. And our mind's ear atrophies.
Do keep us in the loop as your ear learning continues....
Hello Will.
How about this. You print up the music & the 'readers' suddenly sprout ears. "That doesn't sound right."
There is always one in every crowd. I tried!
After last weeks' session someone said, " Don't give up on sheet music." Seems I misinterpretered her intent.
I assumed she was directing this my way. Not so. She was merely repeating her affirmation mantra ~
don't give up on sheet music,
don't give up on sheet music,
don't give up on sheet music,
don't give up no don't give up,
don't give up on sheet music!
"Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
"Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
I have not. I did decide to put aside sheet music for a period of time.
I hoped my purpose would be obvious ~ to develop my aural abilities. It 'seems' to be helping. However, it has not been met with favour from at least one other player. These were the last words I heard last night, "Don't Give up on Sheet Music."
I did not. 63 days ago I posted a thread stating I would learn every new tune by ear. In that discussion I was going to try this for 28 days.
I am now extending this to 1 year.
On 9 July 2009 I will be happy to sight read anything you place in front of me.
Until then I only ask that you play the tune so I might listen. Then I will try to play what I hear.
Cheers!
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
I think that it's perfectly fine to learn a tune from sheet music as long as you are aware that the pitches written on the sheet don't have to correspont to 12 tone equal temperament, at all costs the actual rhythm is not exactly the same as written down, and that you have to ornament most crotchets and dotted crotchets.
Now go in peace and enjoy the tune-books!
M.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by martin t
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
Go get 'em Random Notes!
For those who missed it, I tried to go back and find Notes' original thread from way back when he/she initially 'took the pledge' to learn by ear. I couldn't locate it, so you'll have to trust us.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
I agree. You shouldn't give up on sheet music but you should never rely completely on sheet music to learn tunes. You should also try to learn tunes by ear (or aurally) by listening to them.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
Why do you suppose that other player said that to you? Were they annoyed with you somehow?
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18376/comments#comment383331
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
See? That's why I don't take pledges. Someone can always find the link.
Well done ben!
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
The last set of tunes I pulled off this site were from an Altan album; 'The Cat that ate the Candle' / 'Over the Water to Bessie' / 'Dandy Dinny Cronin' People in our session got copies. The player who advised me not to give up . . . had heard 'Dandy Dinny" & liked the tune. I was happy to oblige. She is not conversant in Abc notation & does not use the internet (or computers).
Yes, sbhikes, she may well be annoyed. I trust she will find another source during my time of auralization.
BTW if you know where Bidwell Park is you know where I live.
benhall1 ~ glad to have the link (28 days) in this thread.
Cheers
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
Ha ha! I love the Session!
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Hup
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
I wonder if your session pal should try learning by ear as well?
I've come across this business of passing bits of sheet music around before. I think some people might have done this in the past in the session I go to as well. Quite often it seems to lead to people learning the tune wrong.
For sesssion playing, I don't even think you can learn stuff off CDs. Sessions themselves have a way of ironing out tunes to produce something that you can clearly recognise as the 'right' tune. If a tune's been through this process, it's normally better to learn it in sessions.
Gosh! That comes over stuffy. Ah wtf, I'm saying it anyway. Take away the suffiness, and I think I've got a point ... which I seem to be expressing badly.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
I had some clowns (not bad musicians) sat in the band last night - first tune, I said we will play Harvest Home, Winster Galop, Jimmy Allen - you are bound to know those.
Yes, but we need to play from dots - we haven't got those tunes.
Yes, but you know them - you don't need the dots.
Yes, but it is easier with the dots in front of us.
Needless say, I made them do it without dots although they insisted on dots for the rest of the evening.
I despair - one is a music teacher.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
Nobody who needs sheet music to get through a trad tune is anywhere near ready to play in public. It is really easy to memorize these tunes, folk who don't think so are kidding themselves.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Bogman
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
To be clear my friend does not play from the sheet. She has forgotten more tunes than I'll ever know.
When she hears a tune she plays along softly. At home she practices from sheet music. In session she pys most of the tunes from memoriztion.
Her opinion ~ she needs all the 'help' she can get,
My opinion ~ her ear is fine . . . better than mine . . . she has a good feel for Irish trad . . . I secretly suspect she has (often) learned tunes (by ear) for which she could not find the sheet music.
I want to thank every one for the support. I welcome any comments from those who use sheet music. I hope to show this thread to my friend. So if anyone has the same perspective as her, please ~ let her know what you think.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Random_notes
** typo
. . . In session she plays most of the tunes from memory
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Random_notes
Don't give up on musicians
I have been thinking about this one. My friend is free to think whatever she wants. I have decided not to show her this thread. Been there ~ done that. We have spent far too many sleepless hours discussing. Too few playing.
I cannot say for certain that playing by ear has, yet, improved my playing. I can say this has vastly improved my appreciation for Irish music & listening in general.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
Maybe try thinking of it this way: ***ALL*** playing is playing by ear, if you let it be so. Sheet music is just another medium from which we can hear the tune in our mind's ear.
And ifi that's the case, then why not learn to play without the "middleman" of ink on paper, or watching someone else's fingers, or even asking what key a tune is in, or what note it starts on? Why not spend some quality time really learning how to use your ears?
Sure, the dots and other visual references can be useful. But without the aural dimension, music would not exist. Doesn't it make sense then to play music by giving our ears primacy and honing them and our aural comprehension to their fullest potential? Meaning that visual aides are secondary (at most).
I suspect a lot of decent musicians would dramatically up their game if they just pretended to be blind for a few months and concentrated on ***listening*** the to music.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
But this doesn't need to be about converting your friend. Do it for yourself, and see where it takes you. If you give it a thoughtful, whole-hearted try, your example alone may be enough for your sessions friends to see the advantages of using your ears first and foremost, or even exclusively.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
As an ear player who just learned to read music in 1994 & still learning-----I value the skill of reading, but find it to be secondary to aural intake & duplication. I find the "classic" repertoire almost entirely necessary to be read and interpreted properly.
on the other hand, I have never found music written for trad to be anywhere near its potential (as played by the pros) and, I might add I have an extreme aversion to ABC notation.
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by hauke
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
Thanks Will. The last thing I wish to do is coerce or convert anyone to change their ways because I said so. One of my challeges is due to a strange revelation. I have (had) always (often?) picked up tunes by ear until I started playing more Irish traditional. I "discovered" this after folding up the tunebooks (70 days now). I had forgotten how much I simply played what I heard. So it's dawning on me that back in the mid 80's anything I heard & enjoyed I played; regardless of whether I had the sheet or not.
Even when I bought a copy of O'Neill's I played what I heard. Locals were not playing 'according to O'Neill' This was 'remedied' with tunebooks (photocopied cut & paste). Then handouts of tune sets, with variations. Then more exact versions. Followed by Abc. Then I was producing tunebooks. No one could get enough.
"Pssst, Random ~ got any more of them books?"
Next was:
Welcome to The Session
The exchange of tunes is what keeps traditional Irish music alive.
I was living the dream. That is when she came to the session. "Yeah we were playing this jig ~ ~ back in the late 70's. Haven't really played Irish in years. Say you know this reel? Oh, you got sheet music. Think I could get some? ;)
I realized I simply enjoy playing session. But instead I was beginnng to make work out of music.
So I do hope to get the full - tilt session going more often.
Cheers!
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
geoff, the mind boggles at any otherwise competent musician who needs sheet music to play Harvest Home.
But then I've scraped my way into a few last minute gigs by getting sheet music emailed to me in time, so I can't be against it.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Bren
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
Heh, I feel your pain. I too have somewhat reluctantly created tunebooks for our local sessions, just to get us all on "the same page" (cringe) so we'd sound less like a 30 car pile up on a foggy interstate....
But then people don't learn to use their ears as well as they should.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Will CPT
Sheet music?
last minute "gigs" you say.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
So it becomes a regression, just as you cite, Random. We all start off learning music by ear--Happy Birthday, Mary Had a Little Lamb, Inky Dinky Spider, This Old Man.
And then someone shows us the inky dots and before long, we can't play without them. And our mind's ear atrophies.
Do keep us in the loop as your ear learning continues....
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
Hello Will.
How about this. You print up the music & the 'readers' suddenly sprout ears. "That doesn't sound right."
There is always one in every crowd. I tried!
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
LOL, too true!
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: "Don't Give up on Sheet Music!"
Some fun! Have to stop with the doting on dottage for now.
Session is tonight.
No coercion ~ just craic!
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Random_notes
*
doting? Oh well.
Later.
# Posted on September 16th 2008 by Random_notes
Don't Give up - 1 week later
After last weeks' session someone said, " Don't give up on sheet music." Seems I misinterpretered her intent.
I assumed she was directing this my way. Not so. She was merely repeating her affirmation mantra ~
don't give up on sheet music,
don't give up on sheet music,
don't give up on sheet music,
don't give up no don't give up,
don't give up on sheet music!
Kinda catchy don't ya' think?
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by Random_notes