I'd have to say no. The only time I'd consider would be if someone at a session asked you to do a solo. Even at that 2 jigs or 2 reels would sound better. However well they may link up there's always going to be that few seconds when you change rhythm that sounds odd.
Kind of depends on what the people in that particular session like, doesn't it? It's rarely done, not traditional, and can sound contrived and hokey if done too often, but if (and it's a BIG if) the people you play with are ok with it, what's the problem? Just be sure everybody is on board ahead of time.
There' s a contra dance set that was popular a while back that was Irishman's Heart to the Ladies (jig) to Big John McNeil (reel). Dancers seemed to like the change a lot.
As others have said, it'll depend entirely on who you're playing with and whether they like that sort of thing tossed at them. You can make it a bit easier for them, though, if you telegraph your transition. Make the tune that you switch to something that everyone knows, with a pretty distinctive first part, so everyone has a good chance of grabbing it even though they're not looking for that type of tune. Or you might try to switch to a related tune. I've always thought that Connaughman's Rambles and Silver Spear seemed like versions of each other, or Old John's Jig and Bank of Ireland - they seem to have similar tricks to them. You might see if you can make one of those transitions come across. If it works, and your mates pick it up, it'll be magic. If it doesn't work, it'll be forgotten by the next round. Give it a shot. Just make sure that you're able to make the switch yourself!
The Old Torn Petticoat slide into The Old Torn Petticoat reel hey? Kevin Burke has done it. or Sliabh Russell into Congress? I imagine there are heaps of them that might work given a bit of thought.
there's a few tunes with jig versions of the reel, and vice versa. And we're always making up new ones. I lack the specific musical terminology, but the trick is to keep the bar length the same, so you play a long triplet over the same time as the 4 beats of half a bar in a reel. So if you count the jig in 2/4 divided into long triplets and make it the same as the way you'd tap 2/4 in the reel. So the tune length is the same.
then there's no question about one into the other, you play them simultaneously.
I suppose you'd be playing in 12/8 really, because 12 is divisible by 4 and 3. I dunno technically, but it's a great sound. Every one chopping and changing between the 4 and 3
I agree with the observation that "jig into reel" is more common on recordings and in concert, than in sessions. Even then, the pairing is often "jig version" then "reel version" of the same tune.
Classic example is Bothy Band's "jig+5 reels" set where they kick off with Leitrim Fancy (jig) into Around the World for Sport (reel).
I've done the same sort of thing (rarely) with Out with the Boys (J) into Pigtown Fling (R), which to my ears are (sort of) the same tune. [ducks for cover]
In a sense, it reminds me of the common practice in Scottish TM of a strathspey into reel pairing, often also 2 versions of the same tune. It can give great lift - I think a classic is Celtic Fiddle Festival doing Laird of Drumblair in this fashion. Great stuff
Traditionally-speaking, the question isn't the right one. Sessions aren't that traditional in oh so many ways. I would say that you can do whatever you like as long as the assembled company agree. Have fun. There's a fantastic set on Patrick Street's "Irish Times" in which jigs go into reels. Puts a tingle down me spine every time I hear it. I seem to remember vaguely an old whistle compilation album I had once which had the same tune morphing from jig to hornpipe (or v.v.?) to reel. We play Gillan's Apples/Tripping Upstairs/Morrison's followed by Drowsy Maggie which the other lads tagged on the end. The only thing wrong is the choice of that lousy reel at the end. I'm thinking of gettin' 'em to add on Cooley's instead.
"Sessions are that traditional..." I'd say it the other way around, though. Sessions are traditional, meaning they localise themselves. The larger parts of the traditions conserve themselves, but things like the local repertoire, the favored sets of one area, or even one particular session, and the "rules" by which the game is played adapt to the way things "are done and have always been done" around here.
So because sessions are guided by tradition rather than by some external set of rules, those rules will change from one place to another. This gives us local styles, which seem to be losing their local character as players travel and CDs pass styles from here to there, and also local customs, which don't travel so much, and are still localised.
All of this going to say that it should come as no surprise at all to find that some of us despise the idea of going from jig to reel, and some of us find it as natural as breathing, because that's how traditions work.
Fairport Convention mixed jigs, reels and slip jigs together at the end of their live version of "Matty Groves". They did end that set with a reel (I don't know the names of any of the tunes they used).
I don't think anyone would agree that Fairport Convention are fine purveyors of Irish traditional music. I'm not being disparaging about the band, they're just not Irish and although they play Irish tunes, not in a very tasteful or traditional way.
There's nothing inherently wrong about switching from jigs to reels etc, it just sounds a bit naff when done in a session. Unless we're back to the "session as performance" debate again.
If you do what Michael says and maintain the underlying tempo for the change I think it can sound superb myself. One man's fish is another man's poisson.
Hi it is an interesting point,of course sessions are different in relation to Set Dance or CEILI DANCE.I only know of one CEILI DANCE where there are three diffeerent tunes played insucession and that is the three tunes which consists of a jig reel and hornpipe.anton london irish centre ceili nights
ceiliman2, I know of that "Three Tunes" set of which you wrote. The jig is "Haste to the Wedding", off-hand I can't remember the names of the reel or hornpipe but have the tunes in my head as I write this. I have played this set for dancers at feisianna, it usually starts with the jig, proceeds directly to the reel, then the hornpipe, then ends with just the A section of the jig - maintaining the same tempo throughout.
That dance brings back memories. Trying to catch the eye of a dancer so you'd know when to change tunes. The other two are Leslie's Hornpipe and the German Bow I think.
I listened to David Munnelly jam with some friends and throw in a set of three jigs and a reel with Star of Munster at the end. When they took off on the reel it made you feel like you had a rocket strapped to your back. It was a grand sesson!
Thanks to everyone for your interesting responses. I especially like Jon Kiparsky's response of Sept 10. It really got me thinking. I play at a few local sessions, including one Old-Time. I'm really trying to soak in the local session "rules" and enjoy myself and learn from all. I love the idea of the uniqueness of local sessions. It's quite true isn't it?
Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Traditionally speaking, is it ever ok to play a reel and a jig in the same set at a session or ceili?
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by suzy
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17637
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17488
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
I've still never once seen anyone do it at a session, if that helps.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
I'd have to say no. The only time I'd consider would be if someone at a session asked you to do a solo. Even at that 2 jigs or 2 reels would sound better. However well they may link up there's always going to be that few seconds when you change rhythm that sounds odd.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by Deise
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
not in a session or ceili no. as a solo and on recordings yes.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Kind of depends on what the people in that particular session like, doesn't it? It's rarely done, not traditional, and can sound contrived and hokey if done too often, but if (and it's a BIG if) the people you play with are ok with it, what's the problem? Just be sure everybody is on board ahead of time.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Jigs to reels works in expert hands (I'm thinking of recordings) - reels to jigs is a train crash.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
The Foxhunters Slip Jig followed by The Foxhunters Reel was often played in many a session I played at
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Actually, Fairport pulled off Rakish Paddy to the Foxhunters' slip jig...
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Because you say "no," I know my session mates will say "no."
So I say "yes."
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by dogmageek
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
There' s a contra dance set that was popular a while back that was Irishman's Heart to the Ladies (jig) to Big John McNeil (reel). Dancers seemed to like the change a lot.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by John Culhane
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
As others have said, it'll depend entirely on who you're playing with and whether they like that sort of thing tossed at them. You can make it a bit easier for them, though, if you telegraph your transition. Make the tune that you switch to something that everyone knows, with a pretty distinctive first part, so everyone has a good chance of grabbing it even though they're not looking for that type of tune. Or you might try to switch to a related tune. I've always thought that Connaughman's Rambles and Silver Spear seemed like versions of each other, or Old John's Jig and Bank of Ireland - they seem to have similar tricks to them. You might see if you can make one of those transitions come across. If it works, and your mates pick it up, it'll be magic. If it doesn't work, it'll be forgotten by the next round. Give it a shot. Just make sure that you're able to make the switch yourself!
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
The Old Torn Petticoat slide into The Old Torn Petticoat reel hey? Kevin Burke has done it. or Sliabh Russell into Congress? I imagine there are heaps of them that might work given a bit of thought.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
there's a few tunes with jig versions of the reel, and vice versa. And we're always making up new ones. I lack the specific musical terminology, but the trick is to keep the bar length the same, so you play a long triplet over the same time as the 4 beats of half a bar in a reel. So if you count the jig in 2/4 divided into long triplets and make it the same as the way you'd tap 2/4 in the reel. So the tune length is the same.
then there's no question about one into the other, you play them simultaneously.
I suppose you'd be playing in 12/8 really, because 12 is divisible by 4 and 3. I dunno technically, but it's a great sound. Every one chopping and changing between the 4 and 3
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
1 2 3 1 2 3
1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
(thats's a bit uneven the way it's typed, but you get the idea
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
damn, the stupid filter took out the spaces. I'll try again:
/1---------2----------3---------1----------2----------3----------/
/1------2------3-------4-------1-------2-------3-------4--------/
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
I agree with the observation that "jig into reel" is more common on recordings and in concert, than in sessions. Even then, the pairing is often "jig version" then "reel version" of the same tune.
Classic example is Bothy Band's "jig+5 reels" set where they kick off with Leitrim Fancy (jig) into Around the World for Sport (reel).
I've done the same sort of thing (rarely) with Out with the Boys (J) into Pigtown Fling (R), which to my ears are (sort of) the same tune. [ducks for cover]
In a sense, it reminds me of the common practice in Scottish TM of a strathspey into reel pairing, often also 2 versions of the same tune. It can give great lift - I think a classic is Celtic Fiddle Festival doing Laird of Drumblair in this fashion. Great stuff
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by domnull
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
it's all so hackneyed
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Traditionally-speaking, the question isn't the right one. Sessions aren't that traditional in oh so many ways. I would say that you can do whatever you like as long as the assembled company agree. Have fun. There's a fantastic set on Patrick Street's "Irish Times" in which jigs go into reels. Puts a tingle down me spine every time I hear it. I seem to remember vaguely an old whistle compilation album I had once which had the same tune morphing from jig to hornpipe (or v.v.?) to reel. We play Gillan's Apples/Tripping Upstairs/Morrison's followed by Drowsy Maggie which the other lads tagged on the end. The only thing wrong is the choice of that lousy reel at the end. I'm thinking of gettin' 'em to add on Cooley's instead.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Kind of cute to see Michael struggling to express a musical idea in written form, no?
(Sorry, llig, I couldn't resist... no offense meant)
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
"Sessions are that traditional..." I'd say it the other way around, though. Sessions are traditional, meaning they localise themselves. The larger parts of the traditions conserve themselves, but things like the local repertoire, the favored sets of one area, or even one particular session, and the "rules" by which the game is played adapt to the way things "are done and have always been done" around here.
So because sessions are guided by tradition rather than by some external set of rules, those rules will change from one place to another. This gives us local styles, which seem to be losing their local character as players travel and CDs pass styles from here to there, and also local customs, which don't travel so much, and are still localised.
All of this going to say that it should come as no surprise at all to find that some of us despise the idea of going from jig to reel, and some of us find it as natural as breathing, because that's how traditions work.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Fairport Convention mixed jigs, reels and slip jigs together at the end of their live version of "Matty Groves". They did end that set with a reel (I don't know the names of any of the tunes they used).
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by pbassnote
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
I don't think anyone would agree that Fairport Convention are fine purveyors of Irish traditional music. I'm not being disparaging about the band, they're just not Irish and although they play Irish tunes, not in a very tasteful or traditional way.
There's nothing inherently wrong about switching from jigs to reels etc, it just sounds a bit naff when done in a session. Unless we're back to the "session as performance" debate again.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by boxedup
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
If you do what Michael says and maintain the underlying tempo for the change I think it can sound superb myself. One man's fish is another man's poisson.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
I'm not saying make the change from one to the other, I'm saying play both at the same time ... on top of each other.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Hi it is an interesting point,of course sessions are different in relation to Set Dance or CEILI DANCE.I only know of one CEILI DANCE where there are three diffeerent tunes played insucession and that is the three tunes which consists of a jig reel and hornpipe.anton london irish centre ceili nights
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by ceiliman2
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
ceiliman2, I know of that "Three Tunes" set of which you wrote. The jig is "Haste to the Wedding", off-hand I can't remember the names of the reel or hornpipe but have the tunes in my head as I write this. I have played this set for dancers at feisianna, it usually starts with the jig, proceeds directly to the reel, then the hornpipe, then ends with just the A section of the jig - maintaining the same tempo throughout.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by pbassnote
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
That dance brings back memories. Trying to catch the eye of a dancer so you'd know when to change tunes. The other two are Leslie's Hornpipe and the German Bow I think.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Deise
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Bugger that, Michael. I'm far too simple for that. I misunderstood there.
# Posted on September 12th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
I listened to David Munnelly jam with some friends and throw in a set of three jigs and a reel with Star of Munster at the end. When they took off on the reel it made you feel like you had a rocket strapped to your back. It was a grand sesson!
# Posted on September 14th 2008 by jrathbun
Re: Jigs and Reels played in the same set
Thanks to everyone for your interesting responses. I especially like Jon Kiparsky's response of Sept 10. It really got me thinking. I play at a few local sessions, including one Old-Time. I'm really trying to soak in the local session "rules" and enjoy myself and learn from all. I love the idea of the uniqueness of local sessions. It's quite true isn't it?
# Posted on September 29th 2008 by suzy