I played classical as a kid, progressed to beginning vibrato and shifting positions and stopped in my mid teens. Over the next 20 years I played very rarely, but listened to loads of ITM. Finally got the courage up to take fiddle lessons and while not very good, I amuse myself and can play regularly in a session.
I have a left hand problem that I don't know the origins of, nor the cure for. I tend to grip the fiddle nick quite firmly, and somehow I allow my thumb to climb the neck. Eventually I hear my fingers start to push sharp, Unless I grip so hard I give myself hand cramps. My teacher suggests a looser grip, to the point of playing with no hold as an excercise. I took Liz Kane's class at Catskill's Irish Arts week, she had no idea, and suggested a firmer grip. Neither suggestion seems to help. If I focus on my thumb very carefully, I can make it behave with effort. If I start wandering through songs and enjoying myself, the bugger creeps back up. I am convinced there is something fundamentally wrong with how I grip the fiddle.
I have spied on good players, watching how they hold. It seems fairly diverse. Is there a 'back to basics' excercise that can help convince my hand to behave itself. Beyond this, the biggest form problem is probably the elbow gets lazy and doesn't stay under the fiddle at all times, but again I have seen many great fiddle that this doesn't matter in the least for.
I do use a shoulder rest, and can support the fiddle without a hand without effort. I don't know why I do this but can't seem to stop myself. The gripless excercise I tried at my teacher's suggestion has no good tone whatsover. There's a whole world inbetweent he two if I can find it.
Hard to say without seeing you play--and as you say, it's something that varies greatly between individuals--but your "lazy elbow" might be a good clue.
Since you had some early classical influence (me too) I'd suggest you work on that posture--keep your left elbow well tucked under, and left wrist straight-ish ("non-collapsed") so that your fingertips fall naturally onto the strings. (Well, "naturally" for a violinist--it's a weird, contorted position for normal humans.)
Your hand tension is probably the end result of tension further up--neck, shoulder, elbow, wrist. Try to get comfortable in all those places too. Maybe play some easy tunes slowly, concentrating on the comfort factor rather than the notes, as a daily exercise until you get it sorted out.
I suggest getting more fundamental; relaxing face and shoulders. excess tension Anywhere can cause problems. imagine holding a little bird in your hand, dont crush it.
I learnt by having little dots painted on the fingerboard. they wore off but the lesson didnt.
If you have good thumb position and you can relax when you concentrate on it, you could try putting a piece of velcro (The stiff side) just where the thumb goes. It'll serve two purposed: reminding you to keep you thumb in place and not to squeeze because it'll kind of hurt if you do.
the only way is to force yourself to hold it a different way. the correct way is to have enough space between the neck of the fiddle and the space between your index finger and your thumb. to achieve this try sticking a pen or pencil in that space so you know how much space to leave. also play using a good shoulder pad. you should be able to hold the fiddle up straight using just your chin pushing down on the rest. your left hand should grip the neck lightly, remember with that small space between the neck and your hand. try not to grip the neck by just letting it sit completely in your hand almost like the palm of your hand, this is wrong and will prevent you from reaching for the higher notes. the neck should just sit nicely into your thumb(just above the joint) and index finger (just below the knuckle). it takes some practise and a long time to get used to. i have changed a number of times myself, but that is the best way to try and get rid of your problem.
Why suffer? If you want to make music then play something that won't hurt. It shouldn't hurt to make music. I think all pain from playing comes either from tension or from weakness. Playing the fiddle can be nerve-wracking.
Seamus Connoly once told me, "Playing the fiddle is all about pain." Even Tommy Peoples is nervous at first when he plays before people. If you can relax and not care so much your pain would diminish and your playing would get better. Easier said than done.
The fiddle is great but the music isn't about only one instrument. Life is too short to be worried and in pain with your instrument.
I used to worry about this as well (What? Me Worry?) but eventualy gave up and started using the old chest position. It cuts out third position, but means I can sing as well as play, and chat to the lads in the band. Fiddling is for enjoying, not for torture!
eventually just by playing and occasionally paying attention to those things they'll sort themselves out. Use the mirror as much as you can and maybe try experimenting with different chin and shoulder rests until you find a setup that helps you relax. Also try playing slowly and really concentrate on making your hand behave. Then throw all that out the window and play like a maniac for a tune or two.
While you're playing something easy - or just holding one note -
practice moving your thumb up and down and in and out from the neck.
The thumb has to be dynamic - not fixed in one spot and certainly not
creeping up all the time. Sometimes you _do_ have to grip the neck but
mostly not.
This may or may not be helpful, but it has helped some. It is one of many ways of holding the fiddle.
Set your hand so that there is a V-shaped wedge between your thumb and the bottom knuckle of your first finger. (Keep your thumb accross from that knuckle instead of in front of it.) When you put your fiddle in your hand the weight of the instrument rests on top of your knuckle (rather than actively holding it) so you'll be less likely to grab it to keep it up. Note that the tip of thumb should be touching the neck.
If your hand is creeping up, then you're probably playing out of tune. Relax your body, and use your ears to play in tune. You don't need to see or even feel much if you use your ears. if you hear it getting out of tune, make an adjustment.
I've also seen corn pads (like for your toes) place where your thumb needs to be (1st position, anyway).
If your hand is creeping up, stop it. I mean, who's in control here, you or your hand? If it's not relaxed and just resting where it needs to be, focus your attention on your hand and *will* it to relax and stay put. If it doesn't obey, stop and start over.
Tracy, I suspect you've somehow let yourself get into a bad habit. One way to break the pattern (as my violin teacher recently told me when talking about the Alexander technique) is to stop playing immediately the pattern/bad habit starts and then give yourself the choice of continuing along the old path or of doing it right. It takes a little time, but this (Alexander technique) approach does indeed work.
I have a similar history as yours. Sometimes I'd have a lot of pain due to the tension. I realized that part of it was that I was grasping the neck too firmly because I was trying to compensate for other flaws in my technique. Once I tried to remedy those it got a lot better. Also I heard someone say you don't have to push the string alll the way down on the fingerboard only halfway. That helped me relax more too. As a pianist I had the mindset that you have the push the key/string all the way down to have it sound properly. You don't. That freed me up a lot. If you love the fiddle don't quit, just fish around for the answer as you are doing until you find what works.
I think Madabouttrad has probably identified the root of the problem. If the fingers are pressed down hard, or snapped down, on the strings the thumb will automatically react with an opposing pressure. The whole hand will therefore tend to tighten, making matters worse.
I suggest an exercise that my teacher gave me: play a long steady note on the A-string and while doing so gently touch the string with the 2nd or 3rd finger. The tone of the A-string will vanish at this point, but gradually increase the weight of the finger until a clear note sounds. At this point the string should not be touching the fingerboard, although parts of the finger either side of its contact point with the string may be doing so. Pressing the finger down further until the string touches the fingerboard just uses up more energy and causes the thumb to tighten in response. It takes quite a while until this lightness of fingering becomes automatic - it's not uncommon to feel that it is counter-intuitive to use a light touch on the string when you're playing at full volume with the bow - but then volume should come from bow speed rather than bow pressure on its own (which tends to kill the tone).
If you watch an expert violinist/fiddler doing very quick finger movements, such as a really fast trill with the 3rd finger or the pinky, you'll see that the finger movement is more of a very rapid light flutter than a hammering down of the fingers, which would be slower and use up more energy.
It's also worth checking out the height of the string action. Too high an action will make you press too hard, slow you down, and tighten the thumb. I'd go for just about the lowest action that doesn't cause buzzing, depending on what type of string you use and its tension.
Well, I don't agree with either of you. (Sorry, Trevor! )
To get a proper tone, you *should* be pushing the string all the way down - hard. And good fiddle players, whether trad or classical, *do* hammer their fingers down onto notes, *especially* in the fast passages. It has alway been a maxim about playing the fiddle quietly that you should play 'piano' with the right hand (bow) but 'fortissimo' with the left hand.
All of the above *still* doesn't mean that you should have the thumb gripping the neck. It simply doesn't have to. fiddleK's right - the neck will just be resting on the knuckle of your first finger.
My left hand fingers press firmly on the strings, and hammer down. My thumb doesn't "automatically react with an opposing pressure". It doesn't need to.
think back... have you injured your left wrist in any way whatsoever? i had only 18 months ago, and now i either squeeze the neck of the violin like the trigger of a gun, rather than simply pressing lightly on the strings from above. if i wrench my wrist into this position then after about 10 minutes of solid playing i'm in agony! i have now taken up the mandolin and it's working a treat. anyway back to the matter at hand, if you have injured your wrist then this could be your body's way of saying
"Don't wrench your wrist into this position save you injure it again".
Hope this helps explain things, and good luck with your fiddling!
Left hand question for fiddlers
Left hand question for fiddlers
I played classical as a kid, progressed to beginning vibrato and shifting positions and stopped in my mid teens. Over the next 20 years I played very rarely, but listened to loads of ITM. Finally got the courage up to take fiddle lessons and while not very good, I amuse myself and can play regularly in a session.
I have a left hand problem that I don't know the origins of, nor the cure for. I tend to grip the fiddle nick quite firmly, and somehow I allow my thumb to climb the neck. Eventually I hear my fingers start to push sharp, Unless I grip so hard I give myself hand cramps. My teacher suggests a looser grip, to the point of playing with no hold as an excercise. I took Liz Kane's class at Catskill's Irish Arts week, she had no idea, and suggested a firmer grip. Neither suggestion seems to help. If I focus on my thumb very carefully, I can make it behave with effort. If I start wandering through songs and enjoying myself, the bugger creeps back up. I am convinced there is something fundamentally wrong with how I grip the fiddle.
I have spied on good players, watching how they hold. It seems fairly diverse. Is there a 'back to basics' excercise that can help convince my hand to behave itself. Beyond this, the biggest form problem is probably the elbow gets lazy and doesn't stay under the fiddle at all times, but again I have seen many great fiddle that this doesn't matter in the least for.
Any ideas?
Tracy
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by tracywag
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
Are you trying to hold the fiddle up with the left hand? Do you use a shoulder rest? You really shouldn't be gripping the neck of the fiddle at all.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
I do use a shoulder rest, and can support the fiddle without a hand without effort. I don't know why I do this but can't seem to stop myself. The gripless excercise I tried at my teacher's suggestion has no good tone whatsover. There's a whole world inbetweent he two if I can find it.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by tracywag
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
Hard to say without seeing you play--and as you say, it's something that varies greatly between individuals--but your "lazy elbow" might be a good clue.
Since you had some early classical influence (me too) I'd suggest you work on that posture--keep your left elbow well tucked under, and left wrist straight-ish ("non-collapsed") so that your fingertips fall naturally onto the strings. (Well, "naturally" for a violinist--it's a weird, contorted position for normal humans.)
Your hand tension is probably the end result of tension further up--neck, shoulder, elbow, wrist. Try to get comfortable in all those places too. Maybe play some easy tunes slowly, concentrating on the comfort factor rather than the notes, as a daily exercise until you get it sorted out.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by mickray
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
I suggest getting more fundamental; relaxing face and shoulders. excess tension Anywhere can cause problems. imagine holding a little bird in your hand, dont crush it.
I learnt by having little dots painted on the fingerboard. they wore off but the lesson didnt.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by Ionannas
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
If you have good thumb position and you can relax when you concentrate on it, you could try putting a piece of velcro (The stiff side) just where the thumb goes. It'll serve two purposed: reminding you to keep you thumb in place and not to squeeze because it'll kind of hurt if you do.
Clayton
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by iampeterfonda
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
the only way is to force yourself to hold it a different way. the correct way is to have enough space between the neck of the fiddle and the space between your index finger and your thumb. to achieve this try sticking a pen or pencil in that space so you know how much space to leave. also play using a good shoulder pad. you should be able to hold the fiddle up straight using just your chin pushing down on the rest. your left hand should grip the neck lightly, remember with that small space between the neck and your hand. try not to grip the neck by just letting it sit completely in your hand almost like the palm of your hand, this is wrong and will prevent you from reaching for the higher notes. the neck should just sit nicely into your thumb(just above the joint) and index finger (just below the knuckle). it takes some practise and a long time to get used to. i have changed a number of times myself, but that is the best way to try and get rid of your problem.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by tradmoosic
For Christ's sake play a different instrument
Why suffer? If you want to make music then play something that won't hurt. It shouldn't hurt to make music. I think all pain from playing comes either from tension or from weakness. Playing the fiddle can be nerve-wracking.
Seamus Connoly once told me, "Playing the fiddle is all about pain." Even Tommy Peoples is nervous at first when he plays before people. If you can relax and not care so much your pain would diminish and your playing would get better. Easier said than done.
The fiddle is great but the music isn't about only one instrument. Life is too short to be worried and in pain with your instrument.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by cocus
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
I used to worry about this as well (What? Me Worry?) but eventualy gave up and started using the old chest position. It cuts out third position, but means I can sing as well as play, and chat to the lads in the band. Fiddling is for enjoying, not for torture!
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
eventually just by playing and occasionally paying attention to those things they'll sort themselves out. Use the mirror as much as you can and maybe try experimenting with different chin and shoulder rests until you find a setup that helps you relax. Also try playing slowly and really concentrate on making your hand behave. Then throw all that out the window and play like a maniac for a tune or two.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by airport
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
While you're playing something easy - or just holding one note -
practice moving your thumb up and down and in and out from the neck.
The thumb has to be dynamic - not fixed in one spot and certainly not
creeping up all the time. Sometimes you _do_ have to grip the neck but
mostly not.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Hup
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
This may or may not be helpful, but it has helped some. It is one of many ways of holding the fiddle.
Set your hand so that there is a V-shaped wedge between your thumb and the bottom knuckle of your first finger. (Keep your thumb accross from that knuckle instead of in front of it.) When you put your fiddle in your hand the weight of the instrument rests on top of your knuckle (rather than actively holding it) so you'll be less likely to grab it to keep it up. Note that the tip of thumb should be touching the neck.
It's worth a try anyway.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by fiddleK
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
I agree with fiddleK
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Hup
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
If your hand is creeping up, then you're probably playing out of tune. Relax your body, and use your ears to play in tune. You don't need to see or even feel much if you use your ears. if you hear it getting out of tune, make an adjustment.
I've also seen corn pads (like for your toes) place where your thumb needs to be (1st position, anyway).
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
If your hand is creeping up, stop it. I mean, who's in control here, you or your hand? If it's not relaxed and just resting where it needs to be, focus your attention on your hand and *will* it to relax and stay put. If it doesn't obey, stop and start over.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
Tracy, I suspect you've somehow let yourself get into a bad habit. One way to break the pattern (as my violin teacher recently told me when talking about the Alexander technique) is to stop playing immediately the pattern/bad habit starts and then give yourself the choice of continuing along the old path or of doing it right. It takes a little time, but this (Alexander technique) approach does indeed work.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
"If it doesn't obey, stop and start over."
"Alexander technique."
So common sense has a trademarked name now, eh?
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
I have a similar history as yours. Sometimes I'd have a lot of pain due to the tension. I realized that part of it was that I was grasping the neck too firmly because I was trying to compensate for other flaws in my technique. Once I tried to remedy those it got a lot better. Also I heard someone say you don't have to push the string alll the way down on the fingerboard only halfway. That helped me relax more too. As a pianist I had the mindset that you have the push the key/string all the way down to have it sound properly. You don't. That freed me up a lot. If you love the fiddle don't quit, just fish around for the answer as you are doing until you find what works.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by madabouttrad
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
I think Madabouttrad has probably identified the root of the problem. If the fingers are pressed down hard, or snapped down, on the strings the thumb will automatically react with an opposing pressure. The whole hand will therefore tend to tighten, making matters worse.
I suggest an exercise that my teacher gave me: play a long steady note on the A-string and while doing so gently touch the string with the 2nd or 3rd finger. The tone of the A-string will vanish at this point, but gradually increase the weight of the finger until a clear note sounds. At this point the string should not be touching the fingerboard, although parts of the finger either side of its contact point with the string may be doing so. Pressing the finger down further until the string touches the fingerboard just uses up more energy and causes the thumb to tighten in response. It takes quite a while until this lightness of fingering becomes automatic - it's not uncommon to feel that it is counter-intuitive to use a light touch on the string when you're playing at full volume with the bow - but then volume should come from bow speed rather than bow pressure on its own (which tends to kill the tone).
If you watch an expert violinist/fiddler doing very quick finger movements, such as a really fast trill with the 3rd finger or the pinky, you'll see that the finger movement is more of a very rapid light flutter than a hammering down of the fingers, which would be slower and use up more energy.
It's also worth checking out the height of the string action. Too high an action will make you press too hard, slow you down, and tighten the thumb. I'd go for just about the lowest action that doesn't cause buzzing, depending on what type of string you use and its tension.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
Well, I don't agree with either of you. (Sorry, Trevor!
)
To get a proper tone, you *should* be pushing the string all the way down - hard. And good fiddle players, whether trad or classical, *do* hammer their fingers down onto notes, *especially* in the fast passages. It has alway been a maxim about playing the fiddle quietly that you should play 'piano' with the right hand (bow) but 'fortissimo' with the left hand.
All of the above *still* doesn't mean that you should have the thumb gripping the neck. It simply doesn't have to. fiddleK's right - the neck will just be resting on the knuckle of your first finger.
My left hand fingers press firmly on the strings, and hammer down. My thumb doesn't "automatically react with an opposing pressure". It doesn't need to.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
"Doc, it hurts when I do this."
"Then don't do that."
# Posted on September 12th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Left hand question for fiddlers
think back... have you injured your left wrist in any way whatsoever? i had only 18 months ago, and now i either squeeze the neck of the violin like the trigger of a gun, rather than simply pressing lightly on the strings from above. if i wrench my wrist into this position then after about 10 minutes of solid playing i'm in agony! i have now taken up the mandolin and it's working a treat. anyway back to the matter at hand, if you have injured your wrist then this could be your body's way of saying
"Don't wrench your wrist into this position save you injure it again".
Hope this helps explain things, and good luck with your fiddling!
# Posted on November 13th 2008 by jack.rowe