springboarding off the 'Hitting the Wall" post below.
How does everyone.how long does it take to move a tune from the just knowing the tune to get through it for the Teacher to the point where it a actually sounds presentable?
Background: 2 plus years learning box. Lessons are two weeks apart. Music assigned is moderate difficulty with bass. I work on each tune 1/2 hour each day with some time in between. Total 2 hours or so each morning, sometimes get an hour in the evening also.
Learing tune by ear. A week or so just to get through it with alot of fits and starts. At the end of two weeks. sometimes I have it, sometimes not. Learning with spots, getting to the fits and starts stage comes quicker because I can read music. But I still hit the ceiling in the quality of the tune. I can think of three or four tunes in two years I really nailed well after two weeks.
What does everyone do on this sort of situation? Leave the tune for a month and come back. Hammer on it until you have it?
How do you get through the ceiling that separates just playing a tune, to the point where it is smooth and effortless.
The reason this bugs me is that on the piano, this process normally takes about a 10 minutes or less on Church cr*p, Real music, an hour to a couple of days practice.
Or is this just of function of learning a tough new instument with a demanding Teacher.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
well, I've only been playing this music since May, but it is alot like learning bebop jazz tunes.
Since you have a melody that is pretty active, usually, it can take some time. I have been finding recordings of a tune, a couple different players doing it if I can, then I find the sheet music here at the Session. Then I listen to it until I can sing it (or at least sing it in my head), then I check myself against the dots (the dots aren't always the same as what is on the recording)
then I learn it on the fiddle, then I learn on the whistle unless the tune is out of the low range, then I figure out the backing on the guitar.
basically, I have to know the tune inside out and back again before I move on to the next tune
I have a friend who has been at it alot longer than myself, and when he shows me a tune, I learn it by ear there with him, then start the process of finding recordings and everything else before we get together the next week.
And while I'm doing this, I keep playing the tunes I already know everyday. Of course I only know around a dozen or so right now, but that's what I've been doing.
Some tunes come faster than others. They all take alot of work.
but I spent 20 years learning Charlie Parker's "Confirmation" before I put it on a set list and played it on a gig, so asking how long does it take is like asking how long a man's legs should be. Long enough to touch the ground is what the mountain folks say around here.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Zipp
Now usually a week to learn a tune thoroughly [for myself] then, if I had a teacher [I don't now at the moment] I'd say another week to make it presentable [with less nerves]. But I've found that as far as trotting a tune out in public I've learned from experience [with reels especially, it's less so with polkas or jigs...depending again on their difficulty] that I like to play a tune privately for *at least* a month before I feel relaxed enough to give it a go at a session of moderate speed.
But all tunes have their intrinsic quirks and difficulties be they jig, reels, polkas, slides or otherwise. I think it's best not to worry too much. Methinks *because* it's easy for you learn C music on an instrument you've played for a long time that your frustration comes from not being able to translate that directly to a much newer instrument and music which you haven't been playing for as long and which is more in the aural tradition as opposed to being written down?
I think they are two very different things and the skills in one won't necessarily make the other 'easier'...although they certainly will help with ITM I feel sure.
I find lately...and for more difficult tunes [for me] on the fiddle that the process is speeded up somewhat [i don't really read dots] by listening very carefully to what the player is playing and marking up the bowing on the music mss...but still *not* learning from the dots. The bowing tho is there to cement the patterns and aid in the learning process [and to make it sound more authentic and me a better player in the long run].
I don't know if the same kinds of slurring issues etc apply to box style [ie, in and out motions of the box or whatever]
Anyway, it seems to be that what you describe isn't bad for only on year two!! By year 5 or so it will be much quicker. I wouldn't rush it. Better to have a dozen or so tunes played well than dozens played not well. Learn good playing habits/style now and you'll be forever on the right road and not have to undo bad habits. I'd say you're doing fine.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Don't know, but was wondering the same thing!
Amongst other ideas, I've heard of setting the instrument aside for learning from sheet and simply committing them to memory first, then picking up the instrument and playing them from memory. Don't know if that would work for you or not?
As for learning by ear, my ears will still play tricks on me, so I still have trouble with tune recognition sometimes. Maybe it's the setting or key, but I still get surprised sometimes by a tune that I really should know already.
I'm kind of self-taught, so I can't really help with dealing with a demanding teacher, but I have always noticed that church music is a bit like gum-ball pop, it'll stick to just about anything (and that's even if you don't want it to!)!
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
It really depends on the tune. Some tunes are simpler than others (don't equate simpler with worse). After a few years of playing, I got to the point where I could often learn a tune in our tune learning session, and play it respectably at speed at the session that night. And that trend continues. I'll often learn a tune and pull it out at the session the same night. And occasionally it goes beyond that, and I can pick up a tune by the third time through in session, having never heard it before (usually only happens with jigs and polkas, although, the occasional reel I don't know will find its way onto my instrument in a session).
But there are tunes that take weeks or months to make presentable too. I learned a particular Paddy Fahy tune in C a couple of months ago, and I play it almost every day. But in session, I have to play it slower than I think it should go if I want to get it out. Part of that is probably because it is in C, and that's not the most common key. Part of it may just be that it's a bit of a bugger to play on banjo.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
part of my problem is that I am self taught on all of my instruments except the box (if you don't count hte 6 months before I started with a Teacher).
I joke that I have to learn to take lessons because as a kid, we couldn't afford them and I learned organ and piano by sticking some music in front of me, wading through it and plugging ahead. Our Liturginazi is trained, as are several of the freinds. When they make comments about my technique or style, I just remind them I was not blessed with four years of University on piano... But I've been doing it since 1964.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
For me, really getting a tune is all about the phrasing. Once the phrases are in my head, the whole tune will just about play itself.
On more complex tunes, I may start out hearing fairly short phrases--a measure or two at a time. I build those into longer phrases--up to four measures, say, or the natural "call and response" phrasing for that tune.
For most people, how long this takes is a function of how well immersed they are in the music. The more years you play it, the easier it gets. But you can compensate a bit for this by really concentrating on learning to recongize phrases and riffs that are common to many tunes as you learn the tunes your teacher gives you.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Just out of curiosity, zippy, are you only learning tunes that John teaches or assigns to you in lessons? Or do you pick up tunes on your own?
As I've said before, learning by ear is a skill that can be practiced. And I used to actively practice it when I was driving. I would listen to a tune that was playing on my stereo the first time through, and then I would try lilting it along the second time through. The goal would be to get the bones of it from the first time through, and flesh out the meat of it the second time through by seeing what parts I was lilting wrong. With practice, by the third time through, I could often come pretty close. (Then rinse and repeat...)
The nice thing about lilting tunes is that your voice is an instrument that you're intimately familiar with. And as you play longer, you will start to approach that kind of familiarity with your box. So that once you have something in your head, you can express it with your instrument almost as easily as you can sing it. (This is a process I am still in the middle of... but it's amazing to me how a tune I know in my head will just appear on my fingers automatically...)
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
"The nice thing about lilting tunes is that your voice is an instrument that you're intimately familiar with. And as you play longer, you will start to approach that kind of familiarity with your box."
This could have a whole nuther meaning in a different context.....
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
The other nice thing about what Will says, is that there are some pretty common phrases in ITM that will crop up from time to time - the bouncing off of a note idea, or the falling leaf pattern at the end of a tune.
After a while, you learn these common "ideas", and then you can remember that a tune has certain ideas in it (even if they're a variation upon the idea). Once you start breaking a tune down into flow, phrases, and ideas, there's a lot less to remember than if you had to remember every single note in order...
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Zipp
Wills point is a good one and often overlooked in the midst of struggling to learn a tune or even sometimes by teachers themselves!
There are a couple of ways to aid memory/speed the process/ retain better:
-look for *patterns of notes/phrases which are essentially the same* [or are identical] within the tune and use a highlighter pen or a HB pencil...note the parts in A that are the same as in B! you'd be amazed. [I just learned, finally, Trip to Durrow, after many years of procrastination on that tune and the point I just made shows up well in that tune for instance]
-also often overlooked by teachers [sometimes] is the idea of an "anchor" note...now on a fiddle that note [doesn't matter what it's called] might fall continually under the 2nd finger. In another tune it might be the 1st finger...the point is once you REALIZE that it somehow makes hearing and/or playing the tune just a wee bit easier as you can sort of predict the anchor note will [likely]begin or end a phrase
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
thanks!
Answer to first question-most practice is on assigned tunes, usually two per 2 week period. But sometimes he makes it complicated- say transpose the tune into 3 keys. I can transposr onthe fly. It's just ont he box...the fingering is a major consideration, and since I play bass, the limitations drive how you push/pull and use the alternate note buttons.
I have been working the Milliners daughter. After 4 weeks, It still doesn't sound right with the bass. When John plays it-it sounds so simple. Had similar issues with Larry O'Gaffe. I have wrestled with that (of course in two keys) for almost a year. But I can Play the peters well hornpipe which has many of the same moves without a problem.
Tunes aren't tough. Add the bass and you spend hours figuring out the alternate button passages and bellows.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Sounds more like an issue of needing to be more intimate with your box...I mean, really at home on the instrument. That takes time and attentive repetition.
Hearing the bass lines as integral parts of the phrasing should also help.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I had a tune stuck in my head this morning, (Sean Reid's is the name, I think) after I heard it on Mary Bergin's first album. I've played it for years on the whistle, but her version sounded "new" to me, and it took me a minute to realize that I already could play the tune. But, did I really "know" the tune? I obviously could get to know it better.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I saw nothing wrong with that, Gary. I do it all the time. I find it's best with a fresh highlighter pen. One where the vapours are still enough to give you a real rush. Really makes the tune come alive.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Yep. Bright yellow ink all over your ears might unsettle your session mates....
Zippy, has John given you a framework or system for figuring out the push/pulls and bass lines? Or are you just winging it?
SMW's post gets me thinking about how I "know" a tune--usually by playing with as many possibilities for variations as I can come up with. For example, I'll monkey around with the notes by trying other notes based on the underlying harmonic (chord) structure. And I'll turn riffs upside down or inside out, or substitute one common chunk for another. And I'll play with interval spacing from the tune's home note or root. Timing, too--stomping on a half-measure double stop instead of rocking through a bunch of 1/8 notes. And so on.
I don't feel like I really know a tune until I've spent some time with it doing these things. It's almost like a common exercise in drawing--filling in the space around the object, to better see the shape of the object itself.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Really, tradmoosic? I'm with Will on this one - I suspect he and I have played for about similar numbers of years, but I have to play about with the tune. Ideally, I'd like to hear a number of other people and their take on it as well. Only *then* do I start to think I "know" it.
I can play it in 5 minutes (or second time of hearing, depending on the tune). It takes me years before I "know" a tune.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I think there's a distinction to be made here between being able to remember a tune and *knowing* it... I agree that there's a period of exploration with a tune. But zippy's question was really more about the amount of time before you would consider playing it in session (which is where I tend to do some of the experimentation with the tune to get to "know" it...)
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
what constitutes really 'knowing' a tune? it take sme less than a day to learn a tune and have it well off to play say, in a concert. while im learning a tune little variations of my own just weave themselves into the tune naturally. in my opinion, you cant reach a pinnacle of truely knowing a tune and everything to do with it. everybody will play a tune differently with their own variations in it that you probably wouldn't have thought of, so you cant really know everything about one tune i dont think.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Yes, 'to know' the tune, hmm...
"To know" the tune in the Biblical sense takes a bit of time, sort of like getting more familiar with your box.
Of course it's possible to 'know' a tune rather quickly, or briefly. Hopefully you will spend time with the tune often over the years, and become close friends, deepening your understanding of it.
Or not, it could just be one of those tunes that shows up every couple of months for a quickie. You know, play it once and forget about it for another few months.
I'm trying to fit some more innuendo in here but it's awfully tough.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
When I was playing the box, I'd have said "depends on the tune". Some tunes just make sense on the box, without regard for their own complexity. Or it might just be that those tunes had some special appeal to my subconcious. And then the basses are a whole other story.
During a workshop, somebody asked Billy McComiskey how so-and-so was able to learn tunes or figure out fingerings on the fly, and he said, "It's just experience". In my little world, this seems right. I thought he meant experience of playing the accordion in sessions, not just practicing tunes at home.
So how do you get that experience in the limited time available? More sessions, more practicing - whatever works for you. Sleeping with the box under your pillow.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I am more worried about the suggestion of getting 'more intimate' with the Box. Herself might get jealous if it were to appear in bed with us.
Actually got a lot of advice I didn't expect. I appreciate it.
I understand the fingering systems. With John, I am learning a system that uses the bass pretty extensively. So the approach to the bellows sometimes drives the buttonwork. John approach emphesizes efficiency and smooth natural flow in fingering. I will struggle through something and he will show me something I missed that makes the phrase fall together perfectly.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I know a few people who can hear a tune once and then play it the second time as if they have been playing that tune their whole lives. If only! But they have been playing their whole lives etc.
I agree with Pete - it really depends on the tunes, sometimes I can get a tune in 5 minutes, most times maybe 20 minutes - but if its a really tough tune ( 'Conlagh's big day' springs to mind) Then it could take days. Although i learnt 'The Singing stream' a fair while ago and still havent got it cause it has the trickiest bit in it for the fiddle....grrrr.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
It depends on how curly the tune is. Some are repetitive and predictable
and may contain chunks that appear in other tunes. I still
have a lot of work to do my fiddle technique so even though a tune
might be easy to learn, everything is hard to play well.
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Zippy, sounds like you're on the fast track with John able to show you things that might take you years to figure out otherwise. That's terrific.
Yet *that* could be where your frustration stems from. A good teacher can show you more efficient, effective ways to do things, but it still takes time ***doing*** them to ingrain them into your playing. Meanwhile, your understanding (and expectations) fly ahead of your abilities.
That's okay though. Better than the reverse. Most of my fiddle students hear me say "Be patient with yourself" at least once every lesson. Patient but persevering. The physical skills come with time. At least it's much faster than when you don't know what you're trying to do....
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I hate to say this one....I personally think I will be 17 forever, but at my age (56) my ADHD (face it most musicians have it in one form or another-how else could we put in the time like we do to learn to play things with techniques most human beings don't know exist!) beats the patience pretty often.
The engineer in me keeps thinking that I can find the most effective mix of practice technique, learning technique and effort will speed the process. The 'street-corner' psychologist in me keeps trying to solve the demons of my musical past (every accordion player has to have memories of being ten or eleven years old and being teased mercilesslly by other kids, and having an impatient, frustrated teacher who found criticism much easier to do than compliments). And lest we forget, there is the brain loss one seems to encounter with normal experimentation with the fruit of the vine as it were.
Thanks for the advice and help everyone.
Come to think of it, ceolachen is missing from this. He is always good for a zinger or two when one gets immersed in self-analysis!
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I learn tunes very slowly, and when I do learn one, I tend to work on it until I know it inside and out, on more than one instrument, know the chord structure that fits, know places I can play with the melody without losing it, etc. I don't just date the tunes I know, I marry them!
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Will
Progress is a relative concept...If I weren't making progress, I would have moved on to doing something otherwise productive with my time, effort, and money, like running for political office or drinking, chasing women and caousing...um actually I think those two go together. Bad image.
Anyway, I was wondering if there were ways to make my effort more efficient. Mtodd thought I was linear....strangely I have never been accused of that, not that I haven't tried it. I prefer the roundabout way most of the time.
But like I tell people being on the downs side of the aging curve, I want to make sure my skills are as good as they can be if I should be called to play a session before the Pearly Gates!
learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
springboarding off the 'Hitting the Wall" post below.
How does everyone.how long does it take to move a tune from the just knowing the tune to get through it for the Teacher to the point where it a actually sounds presentable?
Background: 2 plus years learning box. Lessons are two weeks apart. Music assigned is moderate difficulty with bass. I work on each tune 1/2 hour each day with some time in between. Total 2 hours or so each morning, sometimes get an hour in the evening also.
Learing tune by ear. A week or so just to get through it with alot of fits and starts. At the end of two weeks. sometimes I have it, sometimes not. Learning with spots, getting to the fits and starts stage comes quicker because I can read music. But I still hit the ceiling in the quality of the tune. I can think of three or four tunes in two years I really nailed well after two weeks.
What does everyone do on this sort of situation? Leave the tune for a month and come back. Hammer on it until you have it?
How do you get through the ceiling that separates just playing a tune, to the point where it is smooth and effortless.
The reason this bugs me is that on the piano, this process normally takes about a 10 minutes or less on Church cr*p, Real music, an hour to a couple of days practice.
Or is this just of function of learning a tough new instument with a demanding Teacher.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by zippydw
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
well, I've only been playing this music since May, but it is alot like learning bebop jazz tunes.
Since you have a melody that is pretty active, usually, it can take some time. I have been finding recordings of a tune, a couple different players doing it if I can, then I find the sheet music here at the Session. Then I listen to it until I can sing it (or at least sing it in my head), then I check myself against the dots (the dots aren't always the same as what is on the recording)
then I learn it on the fiddle, then I learn on the whistle unless the tune is out of the low range, then I figure out the backing on the guitar.
basically, I have to know the tune inside out and back again before I move on to the next tune
I have a friend who has been at it alot longer than myself, and when he shows me a tune, I learn it by ear there with him, then start the process of finding recordings and everything else before we get together the next week.
And while I'm doing this, I keep playing the tunes I already know everyday. Of course I only know around a dozen or so right now, but that's what I've been doing.
Some tunes come faster than others. They all take alot of work.
but I spent 20 years learning Charlie Parker's "Confirmation" before I put it on a set list and played it on a gig, so asking how long does it take is like asking how long a man's legs should be. Long enough to touch the ground is what the mountain folks say around here.
so hang in there
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Zipp
Now usually a week to learn a tune thoroughly [for myself] then, if I had a teacher [I don't now at the moment] I'd say another week to make it presentable [with less nerves]. But I've found that as far as trotting a tune out in public I've learned from experience [with reels especially, it's less so with polkas or jigs...depending again on their difficulty] that I like to play a tune privately for *at least* a month before I feel relaxed enough to give it a go at a session of moderate speed.
But all tunes have their intrinsic quirks and difficulties be they jig, reels, polkas, slides or otherwise. I think it's best not to worry too much. Methinks *because* it's easy for you learn C music on an instrument you've played for a long time that your frustration comes from not being able to translate that directly to a much newer instrument and music which you haven't been playing for as long and which is more in the aural tradition as opposed to being written down?
I think they are two very different things and the skills in one won't necessarily make the other 'easier'...although they certainly will help with ITM I feel sure.
I find lately...and for more difficult tunes [for me] on the fiddle that the process is speeded up somewhat [i don't really read dots] by listening very carefully to what the player is playing and marking up the bowing on the music mss...but still *not* learning from the dots. The bowing tho is there to cement the patterns and aid in the learning process [and to make it sound more authentic and me a better player in the long run].
I don't know if the same kinds of slurring issues etc apply to box style [ie, in and out motions of the box or whatever]
Anyway, it seems to be that what you describe isn't bad for only on year two!! By year 5 or so it will be much quicker. I wouldn't rush it. Better to have a dozen or so tunes played well than dozens played not well. Learn good playing habits/style now and you'll be forever on the right road and not have to undo bad habits. I'd say you're doing fine.
my 2 cents worth. ;)
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by mtodd
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Don't know, but was wondering the same thing!
Amongst other ideas, I've heard of setting the instrument aside for learning from sheet and simply committing them to memory first, then picking up the instrument and playing them from memory. Don't know if that would work for you or not?
As for learning by ear, my ears will still play tricks on me, so I still have trouble with tune recognition sometimes. Maybe it's the setting or key, but I still get surprised sometimes by a tune that I really should know already.
I'm kind of self-taught, so I can't really help with dealing with a demanding teacher, but I have always noticed that church music is a bit like gum-ball pop, it'll stick to just about anything (and that's even if you don't want it to!)!
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by mrkelahan
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
It really depends on the tune. Some tunes are simpler than others (don't equate simpler with worse). After a few years of playing, I got to the point where I could often learn a tune in our tune learning session, and play it respectably at speed at the session that night. And that trend continues. I'll often learn a tune and pull it out at the session the same night. And occasionally it goes beyond that, and I can pick up a tune by the third time through in session, having never heard it before (usually only happens with jigs and polkas, although, the occasional reel I don't know will find its way onto my instrument in a session).
But there are tunes that take weeks or months to make presentable too. I learned a particular Paddy Fahy tune in C a couple of months ago, and I play it almost every day. But in session, I have to play it slower than I think it should go if I want to get it out. Part of that is probably because it is in C, and that's not the most common key. Part of it may just be that it's a bit of a bugger to play on banjo.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Reverend
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
part of my problem is that I am self taught on all of my instruments except the box (if you don't count hte 6 months before I started with a Teacher).
I joke that I have to learn to take lessons because as a kid, we couldn't afford them and I learned organ and piano by sticking some music in front of me, wading through it and plugging ahead. Our Liturginazi is trained, as are several of the freinds. When they make comments about my technique or style, I just remind them I was not blessed with four years of University on piano... But I've been doing it since 1964.
Long before she was a gleam in anyones eye!
Us south side Chicago kids call it OJT.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by zippydw
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
For me, really getting a tune is all about the phrasing. Once the phrases are in my head, the whole tune will just about play itself.
On more complex tunes, I may start out hearing fairly short phrases--a measure or two at a time. I build those into longer phrases--up to four measures, say, or the natural "call and response" phrasing for that tune.
For most people, how long this takes is a function of how well immersed they are in the music. The more years you play it, the easier it gets. But you can compensate a bit for this by really concentrating on learning to recongize phrases and riffs that are common to many tunes as you learn the tunes your teacher gives you.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Just out of curiosity, zippy, are you only learning tunes that John teaches or assigns to you in lessons? Or do you pick up tunes on your own?
As I've said before, learning by ear is a skill that can be practiced. And I used to actively practice it when I was driving. I would listen to a tune that was playing on my stereo the first time through, and then I would try lilting it along the second time through. The goal would be to get the bones of it from the first time through, and flesh out the meat of it the second time through by seeing what parts I was lilting wrong. With practice, by the third time through, I could often come pretty close. (Then rinse and repeat...)
The nice thing about lilting tunes is that your voice is an instrument that you're intimately familiar with. And as you play longer, you will start to approach that kind of familiarity with your box. So that once you have something in your head, you can express it with your instrument almost as easily as you can sing it. (This is a process I am still in the middle of... but it's amazing to me how a tune I know in my head will just appear on my fingers automatically...)
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Reverend
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
"The nice thing about lilting tunes is that your voice is an instrument that you're intimately familiar with. And as you play longer, you will start to approach that kind of familiarity with your box."
This could have a whole nuther meaning in a different context.....
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
The other nice thing about what Will says, is that there are some pretty common phrases in ITM that will crop up from time to time - the bouncing off of a note idea, or the falling leaf pattern at the end of a tune.
After a while, you learn these common "ideas", and then you can remember that a tune has certain ideas in it (even if they're a variation upon the idea). Once you start breaking a tune down into flow, phrases, and ideas, there's a lot less to remember than if you had to remember every single note in order...
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Reverend
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Zipp
Wills point is a good one and often overlooked in the midst of struggling to learn a tune or even sometimes by teachers themselves!
There are a couple of ways to aid memory/speed the process/ retain better:
-look for *patterns of notes/phrases which are essentially the same* [or are identical] within the tune and use a highlighter pen or a HB pencil...note the parts in A that are the same as in B! you'd be amazed. [I just learned, finally, Trip to Durrow, after many years of procrastination on that tune and the point I just made shows up well in that tune for instance]
-also often overlooked by teachers [sometimes] is the idea of an "anchor" note...now on a fiddle that note [doesn't matter what it's called] might fall continually under the 2nd finger. In another tune it might be the 1st finger...the point is once you REALIZE that it somehow makes hearing and/or playing the tune just a wee bit easier as you can sort of predict the anchor note will [likely]begin or end a phrase
just a thought.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by mtodd
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
You hush over there, Will
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Reverend
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Yep, mtodd found a good way of reiterating my "ideas and phrases" point too.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Reverend
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
damn. Rev beat me to it.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by mtodd
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
thanks!
Answer to first question-most practice is on assigned tunes, usually two per 2 week period. But sometimes he makes it complicated- say transpose the tune into 3 keys. I can transposr onthe fly. It's just ont he box...the fingering is a major consideration, and since I play bass, the limitations drive how you push/pull and use the alternate note buttons.
I have been working the Milliners daughter. After 4 weeks, It still doesn't sound right with the bass. When John plays it-it sounds so simple. Had similar issues with Larry O'Gaffe. I have wrestled with that (of course in two keys) for almost a year. But I can Play the peters well hornpipe which has many of the same moves without a problem.
Tunes aren't tough. Add the bass and you spend hours figuring out the alternate button passages and bellows.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by zippydw
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Sounds more like an issue of needing to be more intimate with your box...I mean, really at home on the instrument. That takes time and attentive repetition.
Hearing the bass lines as integral parts of the phrasing should also help.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I had a tune stuck in my head this morning, (Sean Reid's is the name, I think) after I heard it on Mary Bergin's first album. I've played it for years on the whistle, but her version sounded "new" to me, and it took me a minute to realize that I already could play the tune. But, did I really "know" the tune? I obviously could get to know it better.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by smw
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Anybody else catch the incongruity of mtodd's suggestion for zippydw, who is learning by ear, to use a highlighter pen?
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I saw nothing wrong with that, Gary. I do it all the time. I find it's best with a fresh highlighter pen. One where the vapours are still enough to give you a real rush. Really makes the tune come alive.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
less than a day. ive played my whole life so learning tunes and having them well off is second nature.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Yep. Bright yellow ink all over your ears might unsettle your session mates....
Zippy, has John given you a framework or system for figuring out the push/pulls and bass lines? Or are you just winging it?
SMW's post gets me thinking about how I "know" a tune--usually by playing with as many possibilities for variations as I can come up with. For example, I'll monkey around with the notes by trying other notes based on the underlying harmonic (chord) structure. And I'll turn riffs upside down or inside out, or substitute one common chunk for another. And I'll play with interval spacing from the tune's home note or root. Timing, too--stomping on a half-measure double stop instead of rocking through a bunch of 1/8 notes. And so on.
I don't feel like I really know a tune until I've spent some time with it doing these things. It's almost like a common exercise in drawing--filling in the space around the object, to better see the shape of the object itself.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Really, tradmoosic? I'm with Will on this one - I suspect he and I have played for about similar numbers of years, but I have to play about with the tune. Ideally, I'd like to hear a number of other people and their take on it as well. Only *then* do I start to think I "know" it.
I can play it in 5 minutes (or second time of hearing, depending on the tune). It takes me years before I "know" a tune.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I think there's a distinction to be made here between being able to remember a tune and *knowing* it... I agree that there's a period of exploration with a tune. But zippy's question was really more about the amount of time before you would consider playing it in session (which is where I tend to do some of the experimentation with the tune to get to "know" it...)
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Reverend
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
what constitutes really 'knowing' a tune? it take sme less than a day to learn a tune and have it well off to play say, in a concert. while im learning a tune little variations of my own just weave themselves into the tune naturally. in my opinion, you cant reach a pinnacle of truely knowing a tune and everything to do with it. everybody will play a tune differently with their own variations in it that you probably wouldn't have thought of, so you cant really know everything about one tune i dont think.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by tradmoosic
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Yes, 'to know' the tune, hmm...
"To know" the tune in the Biblical sense takes a bit of time, sort of like getting more familiar with your box.
Of course it's possible to 'know' a tune rather quickly, or briefly. Hopefully you will spend time with the tune often over the years, and become close friends, deepening your understanding of it.
Or not, it could just be one of those tunes that shows up every couple of months for a quickie. You know, play it once and forget about it for another few months.
I'm trying to fit some more innuendo in here but it's awfully tough.
There, just did it there too.
...and there...
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
tradmoosic gets intimate with the tunes quickly... doesn't even need to buy them dinner...
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Reverend
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
When I was playing the box, I'd have said "depends on the tune". Some tunes just make sense on the box, without regard for their own complexity. Or it might just be that those tunes had some special appeal to my subconcious. And then the basses are a whole other story.
During a workshop, somebody asked Billy McComiskey how so-and-so was able to learn tunes or figure out fingerings on the fly, and he said, "It's just experience". In my little world, this seems right. I thought he meant experience of playing the accordion in sessions, not just practicing tunes at home.
So how do you get that experience in the limited time available? More sessions, more practicing - whatever works for you. Sleeping with the box under your pillow.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Gzeg
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Well, yeah, I've played tunes for big wedding ceremonies that I'd learned just 15 minutes earlier. And I pick up tunes on the fly at sessions.
But tradmoosic is right--a lifetime of playing still doesn't exhaust the possibilities within a tune. So you just keep on getting to know them.
I suspect zippy's still just early in the learning curve on box, and it will all start to fall into place with more time.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I am more worried about the suggestion of getting 'more intimate' with the Box. Herself might get jealous if it were to appear in bed with us.
Actually got a lot of advice I didn't expect. I appreciate it.
I understand the fingering systems. With John, I am learning a system that uses the bass pretty extensively. So the approach to the bellows sometimes drives the buttonwork. John approach emphesizes efficiency and smooth natural flow in fingering. I will struggle through something and he will show me something I missed that makes the phrase fall together perfectly.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by zippydw
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I know a few people who can hear a tune once and then play it the second time as if they have been playing that tune their whole lives. If only! But they have been playing their whole lives etc.
I agree with Pete - it really depends on the tunes, sometimes I can get a tune in 5 minutes, most times maybe 20 minutes - but if its a really tough tune ( 'Conlagh's big day' springs to mind) Then it could take days. Although i learnt 'The Singing stream' a fair while ago and still havent got it cause it has the trickiest bit in it for the fiddle....grrrr.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by bb
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
It depends on how curly the tune is. Some are repetitive and predictable
and may contain chunks that appear in other tunes. I still
have a lot of work to do my fiddle technique so even though a tune
might be easy to learn, everything is hard to play well.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by Hup
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Zippy, sounds like you're on the fast track with John able to show you things that might take you years to figure out otherwise. That's terrific.
Yet *that* could be where your frustration stems from. A good teacher can show you more efficient, effective ways to do things, but it still takes time ***doing*** them to ingrain them into your playing. Meanwhile, your understanding (and expectations) fly ahead of your abilities.
That's okay though. Better than the reverse. Most of my fiddle students hear me say "Be patient with yourself" at least once every lesson. Patient but persevering. The physical skills come with time. At least it's much faster than when you don't know what you're trying to do....
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I hate to say this one....I personally think I will be 17 forever, but at my age (56) my ADHD (face it most musicians have it in one form or another-how else could we put in the time like we do to learn to play things with techniques most human beings don't know exist!) beats the patience pretty often.
The engineer in me keeps thinking that I can find the most effective mix of practice technique, learning technique and effort will speed the process. The 'street-corner' psychologist in me keeps trying to solve the demons of my musical past (every accordion player has to have memories of being ten or eleven years old and being teased mercilesslly by other kids, and having an impatient, frustrated teacher who found criticism much easier to do than compliments). And lest we forget, there is the brain loss one seems to encounter with normal experimentation with the fruit of the vine as it were.
Thanks for the advice and help everyone.
Come to think of it, ceolachen is missing from this. He is always good for a zinger or two when one gets immersed in self-analysis!
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by zippydw
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
LOL, in short, what you're saying Zippy is that your progress is fine, it's your attitude about it that's causing heartburn.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
As Fiddle4 said to me, "with Irish music it's always two steps forward, one step back"
that seems about right.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by mtodd
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
I learn tunes very slowly, and when I do learn one, I tend to work on it until I know it inside and out, on more than one instrument, know the chord structure that fits, know places I can play with the melody without losing it, etc. I don't just date the tunes I know, I marry them!
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
Will
Progress is a relative concept...If I weren't making progress, I would have moved on to doing something otherwise productive with my time, effort, and money, like running for political office or drinking, chasing women and caousing...um actually I think those two go together. Bad image.
Anyway, I was wondering if there were ways to make my effort more efficient. Mtodd thought I was linear....strangely I have never been accused of that, not that I haven't tried it. I prefer the roundabout way most of the time.
But like I tell people being on the downs side of the aging curve, I want to make sure my skills are as good as they can be if I should be called to play a session before the Pearly Gates!
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by zippydw
Re: learning tunes as opposed to just playing them
In the punch line 'carousing'. I can never tell a joke right.
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by zippydw