and though I'm beside myself with enthusiasm for it, I haven't a clue where to start.
It's a low-end 20-button Stagi. My friend gave me a John Williams instructional VHS, but I'm going to have to find a VCR before I get started.
I'm a fiddler first and foremost but thought I'd branch out a little.
Any advice?
Also:
I've never really paid too much attention to box players because I never thought I would be one. I'm not sure how well received they are. If I can carry the tune to speed, and I'm not terrible, will I be annoying people still?
Also, should I get good enough to upgrade before I venture out into public with it? I don't want to annoy people.
From what you say, it appears that you have acquired a two-row Anglo concertina. The Anglo system is diatonic, single action (i.e. a different note on push and pull) - one row for each key. So you will only be able to play in two keys. If the Stagi two-row that you have is a C/G, you will be effectively be limited to playing in one key (G) at sessions, as C is rarely used for TM. So, as with free lunches, there is no such thing as a free concertina! However, if you find that you don't get on with it, it won't have cost you any money. On the other hand, if you do get on with it, you can move up to a good quality D/G/A 3-row, and give your two-row to someone else!
You'll also be able to play in (with possibly the odd tune tweak due to mode) Em, Am, Dm and, to an extent, F. It's not quite as limiting as Mix implies.
Don't be discouraged by Mix O'Lydian's post. Some truly great and influential traditional concertina players, may they rest in peace, such as John Kelly sr, Mrs. Crotty, and many others rarely if ever played outside the 2 main rows. All their recorded legacy can be played with the notes of a 20 button concertina. That does include many tunes in G major (also in G with some or all Fs natural rather than sharp), some tunes in C (which may be unusual today for fiddles, but still very traditional) but also D "minor" (usually dorian mode to be technical), A minor (usually dorian), and many many tunes based on the keys of D that don't require a C#.
Really, 20 buttons is plenty of notes for a great musician to make fine dance music for a lifetime. Some great melodeon players do it with 10 buttons. It's about what you do with those buttons. Nothing wrong with more notes if you also use them with quality, but the lack of notes is not the main problem with a concertina like yours.
A bigger problem with the inexpensive concertinas can be their ergonomics (balance, mechanism, button and handrest geometry) and, over time, their unreliability. It is frustrating to try to play on an unreliable contraption (think of typing on an old style typewriter with some keys often sticking.... and at least with typing the quality of the result doesn't depend on exactly when each letter is formed). More serious can be the damage you can do yourself trying to force music out of a box with bad ergonomics.
Best solution -- try to find a good teacher as soon as possible. An investment in lessons is probably more important than in the instrument. A good teacher can get you making quality music early on (starting with simple music played well and progressing to advanced music played well) and will montitor what you are doing so you don't hurt yourself. Now, some concertina teachers today may be unwilling or unable to help you get nice music out of a 20 key since their concept of playing the instrument is so dependent on the third row, but that is another issue. Final tip -- the really great ones are actually the most underpriced, hard as that may be to believe. Still the little 20 keys can make a roomfull of music in the right hands.
??? what's the above about - get out of bed the wrong side or something?
The obvious thing to do is to take some tunes you know well on the fiddle, say in key of G - find where you start on the concertina and see if you can follow it.
They're a great little instrument but very different I think to fiddle or flute etc., partic. in that the tuning is fixed. You can't flatten or sharpen a note just a touch, or slide up with ease.
When I mentioned the limitation of two keys, the relative modal keys were implied. However, if we are going to be pedantic, let's ar least be accurate! So, assuming that its a C/G box, the possible keys are:
You will therefore be excluded from playing tunes in D-Major, A-Major, E-Dorian and A-Mixolydian - all very common keys at sessions. And I don't see how you will be able to play any tunes in F, unless this box has a Bb button.
Regarding the second point, I am aware that many great traditional musicians used two-row concertinas (and melodeons, as well). But we're talking about modern sessions, so unless Marcianne was given a free time machine as well as a free concertina, that point is irrelevant.
treat it as a mouth-organ (metaphorically - it won't fit in your gob) - push and pull up and down the rows.learn all your favorite tunes in C and G.
The main problem with the cheap ones is simply handling them (bellows control) - they are chunkier - If you have any signs of success, look at getting a cheap 30 key (rochelles have the edge on the action). - you will have endless fun.
If someone gave Mix a B/C box, would he tell them you could only play in B and C ?
I think we need the input of a practiced Anglo player to explain the possibilities.
Personally I play an English, which is fully chromatic, but it wasn't used much traditionally in ITM, probably because the early ones were much more expensive than anglos.
Gurnsey Pete - I don't believe that there is any such thing as as a Bnat/Cnat box - well, maybe in Gurnsey, but not where I live anyway. And if you read my second post, I did elaborate in what I said with regard to relative modal keys. Incidentally, I do own a two-row Anglo as well as an English concertina.
Granama - if playing in F major, Bb would be a fourth in the scale, so quite an important note. So if you led a tune in F major, and nobody joined in, you might look a bit silly playing a sub note! Come to think of it, if you played in F major, a lot of people wouldn't join in anyway, as most ITM major tunes are G, D or A.
Yes, a great instrument to start out with - especially if you don't know whether you are going to be suited to Anglo playing, but with limitations. If you are going to use an Anglo for serious ITM, it needs to be a G/D/A three-row.
I've never seen an Irish trad concertina player use a G/D/A. The nearly universal instrument these days is C/G with the third row being the other notes in one of the two main layouts (Jeffries and Wheatstone, named after the two main competing early makers), with the occasional slight variant from one or the other. They play easiest in C, G and D (and the related modes), but F and A aren't too terrible either. Other keys may be possible, but are well beyond me at this point (nor do I feel any need for them).
Guernsey Pete, B/C (accordion) is totally different from C/G. If the rows are a half step apart, then between them you have all 12 notes of the chromatic scale and it's possible (in principle) to play in any key. If the rows are a fifth apart, you only have 8 notes between them and you can only play in those two keys (unless you pick hexatonic or pentatonic tunes that avoid the missing notes, or substitute notes for the missing ones to make a tune hexatonic or pentatonic).
Jackie Daly told me that he would love to see someone make a half-step (B/C or C#/D) concertina.
I did say 'box', meaning accordion. Does anyone call a concertina a box ? It's a 'tina, or an English, Anglo, or Duet. Where are you, Mix, that you haven't seen a B/C melodeon ? I don't reckon I could get my head round trying to play one, even though I understand many people do, well. But then, some people don't think an English concertina is logical.
"If you are going to use an Anglo for serious ITM, it needs to be a G/D/A three-row." I've never seen a concertina like this. Anybody who would say something like this doesn't know much about concertinas. So you can discard anything this person says about concertinas and concertina playing.
I have played in the key of D on a two row. You can find ways around the missing C#. It wouldn't do for a waltz or an air unless you're pretty clever and fairly experienced. But I've found that I can play in D - my finger goes to where the C# would be on 3-row, but there's no note to be heard. On a fast reel or in a session the loss of one note isn't very noticeable.
Very many traditional tunes don't use all 7 notes of a major scale. (Some use more than 7 of course, such as the tunes I mentioned that are nominally in G but use both F# and F natural).
One familiar and obvious example is the simple Kerry Polka that starts "f#ABA." That tune, which any piano or guitar would harmonize with a D major chord, doesn't need a C# and is easily played on the G row of a 20 key C/G concertina. There are dozens more such "major" sounding tunes whose scales are pentatonic (5 notes) or hexatonic (6 notes).
As others have noted, there are also other tricks used by 10-key melodeon and 20-key concertina players to substitute or suggest notes that their box is missing. This is competely traditional, accepted and sounds great in the hands of a master like Johnny Connolly (melodeon) or the late Kitty Hayes, RIP (concertina), etc..
Even though some concertina teachers today do seem to insist their beginning students have a 30 key, there are other great players who still play and record the lovely traditional concertina settings of tunes in C etc.
I bought a low-end C/G tina a couple of years back, and had a friend of mine tune the top outter right hand C to C#. It works ok with tunes. The three first tunes I learned (without the C#) were:
Sorry, wasn't thinking properly when I referred to G/D/A Anglo concertinas (but of course, melodeons are available in that configuration). I trust all will forgive me for that particular error. However, I know of no B/C anglo concertinas - I believe that the most common two-row types available are C/G, Bb/F and G/D. Of these, G/D would be the most useful for ITM. However I believe that the budget Stagi model referred to at the start of this thread is a C/G. And to be able to play any tune in an ITM session (as opposed to only some of them) you would need a three row instrument which included C# and G#. A G/D two-row would perhaps be a good compromise, and less limiting for ITM than a C/G. I have already acknowleged that any instrument in working order is fine for learning on - especially if free - so good luck to Marcianna with it, of course!
To get an Anglo in G/D, you're talking upwards of £1500 - and that's for a modern accordion-reeded instrument. All the vintage ones in G/D will have been re-tuned from Ab/Eb and will probably cost considerably more.
The Rochelle that someone mentioned is a great beginner instrument but is only produced in C/G - because, as somebody else said, that is the standard key for playing ITM in Ireland.
So much so that most of the good vintage C/G instruments find their way into the hands of Irish Fleadh competitors.
Oh, and concertinas *do* frequently get called "boxes" - have a look at the forum on Concertina.net if you want evidence!
"G/D would be the most useful for ITM. ' Is simply not true. I don't know of any accomplished G/D players of ITM. There may be some, and Jody Kruskal is certainy accomplished, but in a hard-core ITM session I've never seen a G/D. To say it's the most useful is not true and is very misleading.
I know **too many** players of C/G (smile). Seriously, do you play? If you persist in talking about concertinas you should learn something about them and stop advising others.
I'd just like to add to the reference to Jody Kruskal - saw him perform at Towersey where he not only gave a dynamic and amusing first performance, he then went on to run a 'workshop' more like a session or a singaround.
Catch him if he's in your vicinity.
Ok cocus, et al - I give up. Clearly I am moving in a different orbit. But explain this to me. I recently made it known that I had an Anglo concertina for sale (basic quality, but concert pitch, steel reeds, wooden pokerwork ends, sound bellows, in full working order). "Bring it along to the next session, said various Anglo players", "One of us will buy it!" So I did. But when they found out it was a two-row, the interest faded away like the morning dew.
I understand your situation, though I'm not sure if you have a German 20 key or a vintage London-made one.
Obviously, there is a big difference between a gift and a purchase. When purchasing a two row anglo, concertina players *should* be cautious. As I mentioned, many of the cheap Chinese and Italian ones have ergonomic and other functional issues, and in fact so do the "basic" vintage London-made ones, such as the Lachenals, Jones, etc. The 20 key vintage ones were usually sold with 5 fold bellows which are a little short for learners, especially if there are leaks anywhere in the instrument. The 20 key Lachenals often had the "world's worst" action (quoting John Connor), with croquet-hoop action uprights that often work sloppily and tend to pull out of the woodwork, and they also tend to have deal (scotch pine) action boards that crack in dry conditions. Even in original condition, they can sometimes work great, especially for good players who can play quickly and use bellows reversal and the air button to surmount the air supply shortage of a bellows with 5 folds. But unfortunately, beginners need a better concertina maybe even more than experienced players, because they need to be practicing very slowly and that shows up the faults of a poorer instrument. In the past, to supply beginning students, I often took the vintage 20 key anglos and invested in hot-rodding the best ones I could find with 6 fold new bellows and riveted actions, and the results can have lovely sound and playability. But then you are investing more than the cost of the unrestored instrument in the upgrades, to get something like a fine-quality cajun accordion -- great quality sound and action, but a limited number of notes. That can still be useful but at the price, not for everyone. And *most* unrestored vintage 20 key anglos, which are commonly available and cheap, are just not worth giving them this treatment.
So used 20 key concertinas are not always a good buy for today's players. Under certain conditions, certain ones can be really useful and I could play all night, hundreds of tunes, on one of my hot-rodded ones. Again, the number of notes, which you focused on in your first reply to Marcianne, is not the biggest problem with them (although it is easy for anyone to understand why this *might* be a problem). The vintage 30 key concertinas with steel reeds are going for a small fortune these days; they have a much bigger market and their restoration doesn't cost much more than a 20 key (sometimes less because their woodwork might be in better shape or their original 6 fold bellows might be salvagable). So those unrestored 30 key vintage instruments, which are also much less common, have a lot more potential value and sell quicker and for more.
The big objections by other posters here to your earlier posts seem to have been that you were discouraging and negative and most of the arguments you made were misinformed.
I would advise you, just as with Marcianne, to take the opportunity to play your concertina. Since neither of you have to buy these instruments, you have a great opportunity to learn (and then show) how much music can be made with them. Trust me, there is a lot! But your concertina will probably not pay the rent this month if you sell it.
I like the idea of a hot-rodded anglo - do you cut down the bodywork, give it a flash paint job and big tyres on the back, maybe a spoiler for better aerodynamics ?
But certainly the cheapest old Lachenal anglos aren't worth tuppence, and can usually be identified by the absolutely plain mahogany ends and bone buttons, before you take any deeper inspection. Yet a top-end Lachenal is as good as a Wheatstone.
Actually some (not all) of those mahogany-top bone-button Lachenal 20 keys have really decent steel reeds in them and if you hotrod them as I suggested (and I used also to tweak the fit and profile of the reedwork), they really sound great. A uniquely sweet and warm tone, with power too if the instrument is sufficiently tightened up. The lightweight woodwork is a factor I think, since some mahogany Jones anglos with riveted action (though clunkier to play) have a similar tone.
It seems to be made for 'man hands', or else just badly designed by someone who has very large hands. I can't reach the 'thumb button' with my thumb at all (my hands are not even small), but have to contort my first finger to reach it.
Another difficulty is that it is physically difficult for me to pull the bellows out, though it's much easier to push them in- I assume it's common for a beginner to run out of air, but it is unbelievably hard to pull them out enough while maintaining an evenness of tone.
I'm still having fun, in fact it has become a great tool for helping me procrastinate other things I ought to be doing.
My band is very excited about it as well. We're already changing up some of our sets to incorporate it.
It will, no doubt, be time for an upgrade in a few months
Paul Groff - thank you for your long and detailed response. In answer to your questions, the instrument that I have has five-fold bellows, with traditional-style endpapers and bone buttons. There don't seem to be any problems with the wooden ends, which I think are made of mahogany. In spite of that, it's very light in weight - but it has a very loud sound. There is no maker's name on it (or even any evidence of a maker's nameplate which has fallen off). I believe it to be German, on balance of probability, but that's really only a guess.
It's a C/G, and I don't have C# or G#. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can see - no matter how much time I put in on it - I'll never be able to play tunes in D major, A major or the related TM modal keys. And that would cut me out of quite a lot of TM tunes that I would want to play. That is the reason I said it was limiting. If I came over as being discouraging, that certainly wasn't my intention. A free instrument of any sort - (even if basic or low quality) in playing condition provides an opportunity to find out whether it's the instrument for you - or not. If you don't get on with it, you've lost nothing. And if you do, you''l be itching to go off and buy a better one. (See Marcianne's last post!).
I started out with a 2 row C/G. It's possible to play loads of tunes in various 'flavours' of D - either because there's no C#, or where it can easily be substituted -or simply missed out.
Main probelm is learning to 'pull out' the scale of D- mainly on the C row, starting with a 'pulled' D on the LH side. and having to use the little finger on the LH 'G' row for the F#.
The C/G instument has evolved in Irish music with a style that takes advantage of the duplication of many of the notes on the C and G rows. The duplication - especially the 'overlap' between the top notes of the LH 'G' row, and the lower notes on the RH 'C' row enables exploring alternative fingerings of phrases -to find the 'most efficient' - or best sounding way of playing that phrase -as well as rapid decoration /grace note possibilities.
You can't really duplicate this style when playing 'up and down the rows' in a 'push pull' harmonica style of playing. Nothing wrong with this style of playing - its just that if you want to sound like players who use a 'cross row' style - you need to learn tio play this way.
I did finally add a C# to my 2 row (a miniature 'Jones') - by replacing the RH G row top push note (a B note so high -you just don't need it!). Although on many tunes - I was able to manage without C# - I now find myself able to play play additional tunes in D where this note is essential to the nature of the tune.
I've also recently bought a 3 row Wheatstone - but for most of the regular session tunes, -the C# is the only 3rd row button that gets much use.
I and a couple others had actually told Mix as much (in several posts further up) but it does not seem to have gotten through.
Mix,
Try "Roll her in the ryegrass," "The Boyne Hunt," "The Virginia," well we could go on and on.
Don't focus on the limited number of tunes that are off limits on your instrument, especially if you are just learning to play. The glass is not half empty. The glass is half full, actually overflowing with more great tunes playable on a 20 key C/G than most beginning students will have time to *master* in their first couple years of playing. Actually in my experience (when I have had a chance to hear them play), few if any of the concertina players who insist they "must" have a 3 row concertina to play actually sound nearly as good as John Kelly and Mrs. Crotty sounded on the 20 keys they used. [For clarity, what I mean is that John and Elizabeth used 20 keys only when playing on their 3 row instruments).
I have to repost to amend an unintended implication of my previous post, since this site doesn't allow edits.
When I wrote that " few if any players who insist they must have a 3 row concertina to play......sound nearly as good as John Kelly or Mrs. Crotty" (to me), I meant only to be talking about novice players, or folks who don't play at all, who despite their inexperience often express strong opinions that 2 row concertinas don't have enough notes. My point was that many novice players lack the experience to know how much great music can be made with 20 keys, and would do better to focus on what makes the music sound good than on what tunes cannot be played on a 2-row.
I did not mean in any way to insult the dozens, maybe hundreds of mighty concertina players these days whose styles do depend heavily on the third row. Advanced anglo players do know what they need of course, and are usually very happy to invest as much as they can afford in a great 3 row concertina.
But beginners should not be discouraged away from the concertina because the instrument they have (or the best they can afford) has only 20 keys, given the history of great music made with 20-keys by the older musicians I mentioned. Maybe we would have many more young people take up this instrument, less discouraged by its cost, if redesigned concertinas with 20 keys (or better, 21 or 22 keys, allowing the "key" C# noted by Col Arco) -- redesigned for improved quality and ergonomics --were more widely available.
Paul - you say that what you said "does not seem to have gotten through".
I'm not a beginnner at TM and I'm not stupid. I'm perfectly aware that 1000s of tunes can be played on an instrument that has only the naturals plus F#. However, the initial question turned on playing such a concertina at sessions.
As you no doubt know, "theSession" has a facility which allows members to add a tune to their personal tunebook. Using this as a rough benchmark to ITM tune popularity, the "top ten" tunes are:
Drowsy Maggie
The Kesh
The Butterfly
Cooley's
Morrison's
The Silver Spear
The Banshee
The Maid Behind the Bar
Banish Misfortune
The Wind that Shakes the Barley
Six of the above tunes require a C# as well, so without it, you wouldn't be able to play 60% of them - including the most "popular" tune on theSession - Drowsie Maggie. Unless of course your instrument was modified to provide C#. That is why I said that a C/G two-row would be limiting in a session context.
And for the record, I'm very much in favour of having all types of concertina at sessions and elswhere, incuding Anglo, English and Duet.
And I also said that any working instument would be OK for learning on, and that one could always upgrade later - (which if you read Marcianne's last post in this thread), is what she she is apparently planning to do!
I disagree with the claim that six of those ten tunes require a C#. The Kesh, The Butterfly, The Silver Spear, and The Banshee have no C#.
The C#s in the 1st version of Cooley's posted at thesession.org are a peculiarity of that version; it's very easy to find common versions that avoid them.
Morrison's has two c#s. You can substitute a d for the first and an e for the second, or leave them out entirely, and in the noisy pub environment, hardly anyone will notice.
Likewise, in Maid Behind the Bar, the few c#s can be omitted, or the B that precedes them can be held longer, or you can double up on the d that follows them.
The four c#s in Banish Misfortune can be replaced by d (or c natural if your session mates are up for trying something unusual).
In Wind that Shakes the Barley, try replacing Bc#dB with BedB and Bc#de with BAde.
That leaves only Drowsy Maggie as a problem. For that one you just need to convince the others that The Reel With the Birl is close enough (and a nicer tune, to boot) to play instead.
So now you can play 90% and have an outside shot at 100%.
Hi Gary - regarding the Silver Spear - sorry - of course, although it's In D-Major, there aren't any Cs in it (and therefore no C#s). My mistake - I'll concede you that one!
But that still leaves five out of the ten involving a "compromise".
Fine if you are playing solo - perhaps at home. But playing a "D" at a session when everyone else was playing "C#"? would be discordant, and might attract a glare or to from fiddle players and the like - or at least it would, at the sessions that I atttend. And none of this addresses the lack of a G#, and the problems that you would get with all those great tunes in A-Major (or related modal or minor keys).
A limitation is a matter of plain fact, not a matter of opinion. In reality, any non-chromatic instrument has limitations. But that doesn't matter too much for TM tunes, providing that you have a reasonable range, all the naturals - and F# C# G#. And if you intend to use your instrument to accompany songs, it's better to have all the flats and the other sharps as well.
Changing the subject, I see from your profile that you have committed the words of 300 songs to memory (or maybe only 150 on a bad day). Either way, very impressive. Speaking personally, I prefer sessions that have songs as well as tunes. Not all would agree with me on that one, either!
"So you will only be able to play in two keys. If the Stagi two-row that you have is a C/G, you will be effectively be limited to playing in one key (G) at sessions, as C is rarely used for TM."
Leaving aside the absurdity of suggesting the "need for a G/D/A three row concertina," from which you have also retreated, I am glad to see you have substantially altered the position you originally held.
Shows that even though you may not be a beginner, you are willing to learn something new!
Notice that you kept very quite about about playing "D" when other folks are playing "C#". Or have you now stopped doing that? If so, maybe you've learned something new?
Admittedly, I had ever noticed that "Silver Spear" didn't have a C# in it, even though it's in D-Major. That's because (a) I never play from music (athough I can read it perfectly well) and (b) I don't play instruments that don't have a C# available.
And hey, why don't you post up that list of 150-300 songs that you say that you can sing word-perfect from memory? Do any of the melodies of those contain a C# ?
I started to write a reply, but didn't have time to finish it.
In each of the places that I suggested playing d rather than c#, the chord being played at the time (if there's a backer playing) would most likely be a D major or B minor chord. Each of those has a D in it. So you wouldn't be the only player playing a D while the other melody players are playing C#. It wouldn't really clash. In the situations where it would clash, I suggested playing something else (like an E for the second C# in Morrisons) or leaving the note out entirely. If there are no backers, it would sound a little odd IF the pub were quiet enough for one instrument to be heard playing a different note than the rest for 1/8 of a second.
Why do you assume that because I suggest that something would work that I am doing it myself? I've got C#s on my concertina and I do use them.
This isn't a website about songs, only a small fraction of my repertoire is Irish, most of them you've never heard of, I never said that I can sing them word-perfect, and it's been years since I updated my list.
You mention wanting to play lots of tunes in A Major. There are very few Irish tunes in A Major. There are quite a few in A Mixolydian, for which the C# would be important. If you're playing lots of A Major tunes, they're probably Scottish, Quebecois, or old-time, and an Irish-style tuning, even with 3 rows, probably isn't the ideal choice.
You also talk about accompanying songs. I haven't come across many instances of concertinas (or even other melody instruments) accompanying songs in sessions in Ireland. That strikes me as being more of an English and American thing. At the sessions I go to, I'll accompany if the singer is in F, C, G, D, or A, and put the concertina down if not. Anglo players who are serious about being able to accompany a song in any key have to carry around (and be able to afford) three instruments (or be really amazing players).
Hmm...I just checked your website, and the version of Banish Misfortune you have doesn't have any C#s. In fact the ones I suggested changing to Ds are already Ds in your version!
I don't think we ever met when I lived in New England but obviously you and I share a similar point of view about how many tunes in many different keys can be played in nice settings on a 20 key C/G concertina.
On the other hand I will offer a slightly different perspective on just one point. I think it's very interesting to accompany songs (and play other arrangements of many kinds of music) in all 12 keys on a 3 row anglo. I spent some time doing that and a three row C/G (or any other traditional pair of keys) can be used that way. It helps to have 33 or more buttons if you want to exploit the three-row anglo as a fully chromatic chordal instrument. I also have enjoyed playing traditional tunes in very unfamiliar keys on the 3 row anglo. This is not the best use of practice time for most "total beginners" like Marcianne who want to learn traditional music, but very rewarding for experienced players who like a challenge.
But the latter way of playing is not the traditional approach to playing Irish music on the concertina. Up to WW2 probably the vast majority of players, even the very best ones, started on 2 row German concertinas and found settings of tunes that worked great for dancing and listening on those "limited" instruments. Of course, every musical instrument is "limited" compared to some others, in some dimension of music making (no melody notes below the nominal "D" on most irish pipes, most whistles, and many flutes, no harmony or drone notes on many instruments, many of the wind instruments strongly favor some keys over others, fretted instruments don't give a sustained tone.....). But what is relevant to a musician is what can be achieved with the instrument he is playing. And some of the great Irish concertina players of the twentieth century showed again and again what can be achieved with 20 buttons or less -- since even when they were able to play on a 3 row they rarely or never used that third row. I believe Mrs. Crotty and John Kelly preferred the 3-row concertinas on which most of their recordings were made only because those particular instruments had the best tone and response of any they could obtain, not because they needed more notes. Johnny Connolly shows how many hours of music of the highest quality can be made on a Hohner 10 key melodeon -- the kind of instrument that many inferior players consider to be beneath them.
I am honestly very happy to see that Mix O'Lydian is now willing to acknowledge the thousands of tunes in many keys that are playable on a 2-row anglo. He is even willing to include "major sounding tunes with no C#" in his definition of "D major," which is actually a little farther than I usually go. But if they have no C natural either, for purposes of coaching the guitar backer most of these might as well be in D major.
It is a little discouraging in an argument when someone changes his position so drastically but still seems to be asserting he was "right all along.'" Even more discouraging to see personal attacks. I tried to stick to the arguments about facts, and also to make a point that newcomers to the concertina need encouragement and practical advice. But I admit that eventually I did lose patience a little.
So Mix, sorry if you felt attacked by me. Your erroneous claim to Marcianne that a 2-row can "essentially play only in G" is a cliche I have had to refute many times, and is usually believed most strongly by the most ignorant. Like many false and unconstructive ideas it does contain a grain of truth. You can cling to that grain if you insist. But I hope you also enjoy playing your concertina, in all the many tonalities it can accommodate... or invest in a 3 row if you prefer. No matter which, in my experience the number of notes available on the instrument or used in a setting doesn't really correlate with the quality of the music. Quality comes from something else and can be there when few notes are played, or can be missing despite all the 88 notes of a piano.
I note that you do have C# available on your concertina, and that you do use it! Admittedly, having a G# is of less importance. Where I live, we have quite a big choice of sessions to go to. Some of these are 100% Irish, (mostly tunes). Others have mixed traditional material (with songs, as well of tunes). As you rightly say, most of the tunes in A-Major tend to be Scottish. Quite a few of these are played at sessions that I attend, e.g. Mason's Apron, Devil Among the Tailors, Angus Campbell etc., - hence the need for having a G#.
In my area, interest and support for Irish traditional music seems to be increasing. Sadly though, support for the traditional songs (all countries) is at a low ebb, running at only about 1/10th the level of what it was 20 or 30 years go. And when you do get a song, it's often one that was sung a few weeks previously - in spite of there being tens of thousands of songs to choose from. That's why I would be genuinely interested in seeing your list of songs. If you have your list machine-readable, maybe you could email it to me.
With regard to "Banish Misfortune", some while ago I was experimenting with it, to see what it would sound like as a pure Mixolydian tune (i.e. without the various modulations into D-Major). I quite liked the result, but of course, nobody actually plays it that way, so it isn't really a "version" at all. Unfortunately, that was the one that I put on my website - an error, so thanks for telling me! I've sinced replaced it with the normal "standard" version. Most websites contain errors - even the big corporate ones. My site is just a not-for-profit community thing, but is also prone to errors. However, I'm happy to correct any if people tell me - so thanks for that!
An old friend just gave me a concertina
An old friend just gave me a concertina
and though I'm beside myself with enthusiasm for it, I haven't a clue where to start.
It's a low-end 20-button Stagi. My friend gave me a John Williams instructional VHS, but I'm going to have to find a VCR before I get started.
I'm a fiddler first and foremost but thought I'd branch out a little.
Any advice?
Also:
I've never really paid too much attention to box players because I never thought I would be one. I'm not sure how well received they are. If I can carry the tune to speed, and I'm not terrible, will I be annoying people still?
Also, should I get good enough to upgrade before I venture out into public with it? I don't want to annoy people.
Thanks!
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Marcianne
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Well congratulations. I can't help you but just to let you know I'm thrilled for you anyway. I'm sure you'll love the new journey.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
If you're a fiddler, you should be accustomed to annoying people.
Just have fun with it. Fun is contagious.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by mickray
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
From what you say, it appears that you have acquired a two-row Anglo concertina. The Anglo system is diatonic, single action (i.e. a different note on push and pull) - one row for each key. So you will only be able to play in two keys. If the Stagi two-row that you have is a C/G, you will be effectively be limited to playing in one key (G) at sessions, as C is rarely used for TM. So, as with free lunches, there is no such thing as a free concertina! However, if you find that you don't get on with it, it won't have cost you any money. On the other hand, if you do get on with it, you can move up to a good quality D/G/A 3-row, and give your two-row to someone else!
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
You'll also be able to play in (with possibly the odd tune tweak due to mode) Em, Am, Dm and, to an extent, F. It's not quite as limiting as Mix implies.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Marcianne,
Don't be discouraged by Mix O'Lydian's post. Some truly great and influential traditional concertina players, may they rest in peace, such as John Kelly sr, Mrs. Crotty, and many others rarely if ever played outside the 2 main rows. All their recorded legacy can be played with the notes of a 20 button concertina. That does include many tunes in G major (also in G with some or all Fs natural rather than sharp), some tunes in C (which may be unusual today for fiddles, but still very traditional) but also D "minor" (usually dorian mode to be technical), A minor (usually dorian), and many many tunes based on the keys of D that don't require a C#.
Really, 20 buttons is plenty of notes for a great musician to make fine dance music for a lifetime. Some great melodeon players do it with 10 buttons. It's about what you do with those buttons. Nothing wrong with more notes if you also use them with quality, but the lack of notes is not the main problem with a concertina like yours.
A bigger problem with the inexpensive concertinas can be their ergonomics (balance, mechanism, button and handrest geometry) and, over time, their unreliability. It is frustrating to try to play on an unreliable contraption (think of typing on an old style typewriter with some keys often sticking.... and at least with typing the quality of the result doesn't depend on exactly when each letter is formed). More serious can be the damage you can do yourself trying to force music out of a box with bad ergonomics.
Best solution -- try to find a good teacher as soon as possible. An investment in lessons is probably more important than in the instrument. A good teacher can get you making quality music early on (starting with simple music played well and progressing to advanced music played well) and will montitor what you are doing so you don't hurt yourself. Now, some concertina teachers today may be unwilling or unable to help you get nice music out of a 20 key since their concept of playing the instrument is so dependent on the third row, but that is another issue. Final tip -- the really great ones are actually the most underpriced, hard as that may be to believe. Still the little 20 keys can make a roomfull of music in the right hands.
Good luck and have fun!
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Paul Groff
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Yea ...how well received and by who.?.Get a grip and learn something about what the music is about.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by corncrake
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
??? what's the above about - get out of bed the wrong side or something?
The obvious thing to do is to take some tunes you know well on the fiddle, say in key of G - find where you start on the concertina and see if you can follow it.
They're a great little instrument but very different I think to fiddle or flute etc., partic. in that the tuning is fixed. You can't flatten or sharpen a note just a touch, or slide up with ease.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
When I mentioned the limitation of two keys, the relative modal keys were implied. However, if we are going to be pedantic, let's ar least be accurate! So, assuming that its a C/G box, the possible keys are:
C-Major
A-Aolian (or natural minor)
D-Dorian
G-Mixolydian
G-Major
E-Aolian (or natural minor)
A-Dorian
D-Mixolydian
You will therefore be excluded from playing tunes in D-Major, A-Major, E-Dorian and A-Mixolydian - all very common keys at sessions. And I don't see how you will be able to play any tunes in F, unless this box has a Bb button.
Regarding the second point, I am aware that many great traditional musicians used two-row concertinas (and melodeons, as well). But we're talking about modern sessions, so unless Marcianne was given a free time machine as well as a free concertina, that point is irrelevant.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
treat it as a mouth-organ (metaphorically - it won't fit in your gob) - push and pull up and down the rows.learn all your favorite tunes in C and G.
The main problem with the cheap ones is simply handling them (bellows control) - they are chunkier - If you have any signs of success, look at getting a cheap 30 key (rochelles have the edge on the action). - you will have endless fun.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
If someone gave Mix a B/C box, would he tell them you could only play in B and C ?
I think we need the input of a practiced Anglo player to explain the possibilities.
Personally I play an English, which is fully chromatic, but it wasn't used much traditionally in ITM, probably because the early ones were much more expensive than anglos.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
"I don't see how you will be able to play any tunes in F, unless this box has a Bb button"
In some tunes, you might get away with substituting another note for the Bb.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by ragaman
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Gurnsey Pete - I don't believe that there is any such thing as as a Bnat/Cnat box - well, maybe in Gurnsey, but not where I live anyway. And if you read my second post, I did elaborate in what I said with regard to relative modal keys. Incidentally, I do own a two-row Anglo as well as an English concertina.
Granama - if playing in F major, Bb would be a fourth in the scale, so quite an important note. So if you led a tune in F major, and nobody joined in, you might look a bit silly playing a sub note! Come to think of it, if you played in F major, a lot of people wouldn't join in anyway, as most ITM major tunes are G, D or A.
Yes, a great instrument to start out with - especially if you don't know whether you are going to be suited to Anglo playing, but with limitations. If you are going to use an Anglo for serious ITM, it needs to be a G/D/A three-row.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
I've never seen an Irish trad concertina player use a G/D/A. The nearly universal instrument these days is C/G with the third row being the other notes in one of the two main layouts (Jeffries and Wheatstone, named after the two main competing early makers), with the occasional slight variant from one or the other. They play easiest in C, G and D (and the related modes), but F and A aren't too terrible either. Other keys may be possible, but are well beyond me at this point (nor do I feel any need for them).
Guernsey Pete, B/C (accordion) is totally different from C/G. If the rows are a half step apart, then between them you have all 12 notes of the chromatic scale and it's possible (in principle) to play in any key. If the rows are a fifth apart, you only have 8 notes between them and you can only play in those two keys (unless you pick hexatonic or pentatonic tunes that avoid the missing notes, or substitute notes for the missing ones to make a tune hexatonic or pentatonic).
Jackie Daly told me that he would love to see someone make a half-step (B/C or C#/D) concertina.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
I did say 'box', meaning accordion. Does anyone call a concertina a box ? It's a 'tina, or an English, Anglo, or Duet. Where are you, Mix, that you haven't seen a B/C melodeon ? I don't reckon I could get my head round trying to play one, even though I understand many people do, well. But then, some people don't think an English concertina is logical.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Quick, give it back....
"If you are going to use an Anglo for serious ITM, it needs to be a G/D/A three-row." I've never seen a concertina like this. Anybody who would say something like this doesn't know much about concertinas. So you can discard anything this person says about concertinas and concertina playing.
I have played in the key of D on a two row. You can find ways around the missing C#. It wouldn't do for a waltz or an air unless you're pretty clever and fairly experienced. But I've found that I can play in D - my finger goes to where the C# would be on 3-row, but there's no note to be heard. On a fast reel or in a session the loss of one note isn't very noticeable.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by cocus
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Mix O'Lydian,
Very many traditional tunes don't use all 7 notes of a major scale. (Some use more than 7 of course, such as the tunes I mentioned that are nominally in G but use both F# and F natural).
One familiar and obvious example is the simple Kerry Polka that starts "f#ABA." That tune, which any piano or guitar would harmonize with a D major chord, doesn't need a C# and is easily played on the G row of a 20 key C/G concertina. There are dozens more such "major" sounding tunes whose scales are pentatonic (5 notes) or hexatonic (6 notes).
As others have noted, there are also other tricks used by 10-key melodeon and 20-key concertina players to substitute or suggest notes that their box is missing. This is competely traditional, accepted and sounds great in the hands of a master like Johnny Connolly (melodeon) or the late Kitty Hayes, RIP (concertina), etc..
Even though some concertina teachers today do seem to insist their beginning students have a 30 key, there are other great players who still play and record the lovely traditional concertina settings of tunes in C etc.
Paul
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Paul Groff
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
and pipers who love to play their "C" sets
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Marcianne:
I bought a low-end C/G tina a couple of years back, and had a friend of mine tune the top outter right hand C to C#. It works ok with tunes. The three first tunes I learned (without the C#) were:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2395
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1016
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/104 (transposed to C)
Your in for a lot of fun and despair:.-)
Good luck!
S
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by snorre
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Sorry, wasn't thinking properly when I referred to G/D/A Anglo concertinas (but of course, melodeons are available in that configuration). I trust all will forgive me for that particular error. However, I know of no B/C anglo concertinas - I believe that the most common two-row types available are C/G, Bb/F and G/D. Of these, G/D would be the most useful for ITM. However I believe that the budget Stagi model referred to at the start of this thread is a C/G. And to be able to play any tune in an ITM session (as opposed to only some of them) you would need a three row instrument which included C# and G#. A G/D two-row would perhaps be a good compromise, and less limiting for ITM than a C/G. I have already acknowleged that any instrument in working order is fine for learning on - especially if free - so good luck to Marcianna with it, of course!
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
To get an Anglo in G/D, you're talking upwards of £1500 - and that's for a modern accordion-reeded instrument. All the vintage ones in G/D will have been re-tuned from Ab/Eb and will probably cost considerably more.
The Rochelle that someone mentioned is a great beginner instrument but is only produced in C/G - because, as somebody else said, that is the standard key for playing ITM in Ireland.
So much so that most of the good vintage C/G instruments find their way into the hands of Irish Fleadh competitors.
Oh, and concertinas *do* frequently get called "boxes" - have a look at the forum on Concertina.net if you want evidence!
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by DavyR
Mix-- do you play?
"G/D would be the most useful for ITM. ' Is simply not true. I don't know of any accomplished G/D players of ITM. There may be some, and Jody Kruskal is certainy accomplished, but in a hard-core ITM session I've never seen a G/D. To say it's the most useful is not true and is very misleading.
I know **too many** players of C/G (smile). Seriously, do you play? If you persist in talking about concertinas you should learn something about them and stop advising others.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by cocus
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Thank you everyone! I now have some good info to start with...mostly that I will find a good teacher asap.
This is going to be SO fun!
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Marcianne
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
I'd just like to add to the reference to Jody Kruskal - saw him perform at Towersey where he not only gave a dynamic and amusing first performance, he then went on to run a 'workshop' more like a session or a singaround.
Catch him if he's in your vicinity.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
"An old friend just gave me a concertina"
Marcianne ~ congratulations. I hope you have loads of fun with it.
Now, I wish I had an old friend, who wanted to give me a Bb/F Concertina!
"But then, some people don't think an English concertina is logical."
No Pete, I think we all appreciate that there is logic to the English Concertina system. What we don't think are logical .... are the players!
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Ptarmigan
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Ok cocus, et al - I give up. Clearly I am moving in a different orbit. But explain this to me. I recently made it known that I had an Anglo concertina for sale (basic quality, but concert pitch, steel reeds, wooden pokerwork ends, sound bellows, in full working order). "Bring it along to the next session, said various Anglo players", "One of us will buy it!" So I did. But when they found out it was a two-row, the interest faded away like the morning dew.
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Mix O'Lydian,
I understand your situation, though I'm not sure if you have a German 20 key or a vintage London-made one.
Obviously, there is a big difference between a gift and a purchase. When purchasing a two row anglo, concertina players *should* be cautious. As I mentioned, many of the cheap Chinese and Italian ones have ergonomic and other functional issues, and in fact so do the "basic" vintage London-made ones, such as the Lachenals, Jones, etc. The 20 key vintage ones were usually sold with 5 fold bellows which are a little short for learners, especially if there are leaks anywhere in the instrument. The 20 key Lachenals often had the "world's worst" action (quoting John Connor), with croquet-hoop action uprights that often work sloppily and tend to pull out of the woodwork, and they also tend to have deal (scotch pine) action boards that crack in dry conditions. Even in original condition, they can sometimes work great, especially for good players who can play quickly and use bellows reversal and the air button to surmount the air supply shortage of a bellows with 5 folds. But unfortunately, beginners need a better concertina maybe even more than experienced players, because they need to be practicing very slowly and that shows up the faults of a poorer instrument. In the past, to supply beginning students, I often took the vintage 20 key anglos and invested in hot-rodding the best ones I could find with 6 fold new bellows and riveted actions, and the results can have lovely sound and playability. But then you are investing more than the cost of the unrestored instrument in the upgrades, to get something like a fine-quality cajun accordion -- great quality sound and action, but a limited number of notes. That can still be useful but at the price, not for everyone. And *most* unrestored vintage 20 key anglos, which are commonly available and cheap, are just not worth giving them this treatment.
So used 20 key concertinas are not always a good buy for today's players. Under certain conditions, certain ones can be really useful and I could play all night, hundreds of tunes, on one of my hot-rodded ones. Again, the number of notes, which you focused on in your first reply to Marcianne, is not the biggest problem with them (although it is easy for anyone to understand why this *might* be a problem). The vintage 30 key concertinas with steel reeds are going for a small fortune these days; they have a much bigger market and their restoration doesn't cost much more than a 20 key (sometimes less because their woodwork might be in better shape or their original 6 fold bellows might be salvagable). So those unrestored 30 key vintage instruments, which are also much less common, have a lot more potential value and sell quicker and for more.
The big objections by other posters here to your earlier posts seem to have been that you were discouraging and negative and most of the arguments you made were misinformed.
I would advise you, just as with Marcianne, to take the opportunity to play your concertina. Since neither of you have to buy these instruments, you have a great opportunity to learn (and then show) how much music can be made with them. Trust me, there is a lot! But your concertina will probably not pay the rent this month if you sell it.
Best wishes and good luck,
Paul
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by Paul Groff
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
I like the idea of a hot-rodded anglo - do you cut down the bodywork, give it a flash paint job and big tyres on the back, maybe a spoiler for better aerodynamics ?
But certainly the cheapest old Lachenal anglos aren't worth tuppence, and can usually be identified by the absolutely plain mahogany ends and bone buttons, before you take any deeper inspection. Yet a top-end Lachenal is as good as a Wheatstone.
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Guernsey Pete,
Actually some (not all) of those mahogany-top bone-button Lachenal 20 keys have really decent steel reeds in them and if you hotrod them as I suggested (and I used also to tweak the fit and profile of the reedwork), they really sound great. A uniquely sweet and warm tone, with power too if the instrument is sufficiently tightened up. The lightweight woodwork is a factor I think, since some mahogany Jones anglos with riveted action (though clunkier to play) have a similar tone.
PG
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by Paul Groff
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Paul Goff & others, thank you for the perspective
I have been having a GREAT time with it and I can play a few songs already.
I am definitely struggling with the ergonomic issues mentioned by yourself and a few other posters.
I think what I have a is a Stagi PL-42R- or at least it looks just like the picture on this website:
http://www.jimlaabs.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=4077
It seems to be made for 'man hands', or else just badly designed by someone who has very large hands. I can't reach the 'thumb button' with my thumb at all (my hands are not even small), but have to contort my first finger to reach it.
Another difficulty is that it is physically difficult for me to pull the bellows out, though it's much easier to push them in- I assume it's common for a beginner to run out of air, but it is unbelievably hard to pull them out enough while maintaining an evenness of tone.
I'm still having fun, in fact it has become a great tool for helping me procrastinate other things I ought to be doing.
My band is very excited about it as well. We're already changing up some of our sets to incorporate it.
It will, no doubt, be time for an upgrade in a few months
Thanks again everyone!
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by Marcianne
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Paul Groff - thank you for your long and detailed response. In answer to your questions, the instrument that I have has five-fold bellows, with traditional-style endpapers and bone buttons. There don't seem to be any problems with the wooden ends, which I think are made of mahogany. In spite of that, it's very light in weight - but it has a very loud sound. There is no maker's name on it (or even any evidence of a maker's nameplate which has fallen off). I believe it to be German, on balance of probability, but that's really only a guess.
It's a C/G, and I don't have C# or G#. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can see - no matter how much time I put in on it - I'll never be able to play tunes in D major, A major or the related TM modal keys. And that would cut me out of quite a lot of TM tunes that I would want to play. That is the reason I said it was limiting. If I came over as being discouraging, that certainly wasn't my intention. A free instrument of any sort - (even if basic or low quality) in playing condition provides an opportunity to find out whether it's the instrument for you - or not. If you don't get on with it, you've lost nothing. And if you do, you''l be itching to go off and buy a better one. (See Marcianne's last post!).
# Posted on September 7th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
I started out with a 2 row C/G. It's possible to play loads of tunes in various 'flavours' of D - either because there's no C#, or where it can easily be substituted -or simply missed out.
Main probelm is learning to 'pull out' the scale of D- mainly on the C row, starting with a 'pulled' D on the LH side. and having to use the little finger on the LH 'G' row for the F#.
The C/G instument has evolved in Irish music with a style that takes advantage of the duplication of many of the notes on the C and G rows. The duplication - especially the 'overlap' between the top notes of the LH 'G' row, and the lower notes on the RH 'C' row enables exploring alternative fingerings of phrases -to find the 'most efficient' - or best sounding way of playing that phrase -as well as rapid decoration /grace note possibilities.
You can't really duplicate this style when playing 'up and down the rows' in a 'push pull' harmonica style of playing. Nothing wrong with this style of playing - its just that if you want to sound like players who use a 'cross row' style - you need to learn tio play this way.
I did finally add a C# to my 2 row (a miniature 'Jones') - by replacing the RH G row top push note (a B note so high -you just don't need it!). Although on many tunes - I was able to manage without C# - I now find myself able to play play additional tunes in D where this note is essential to the nature of the tune.
I've also recently bought a 3 row Wheatstone - but for most of the regular session tunes, -the C# is the only 3rd row button that gets much use.
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Col Arco
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Col Arco,
Well said.
I and a couple others had actually told Mix as much (in several posts further up) but it does not seem to have gotten through.
Mix,
Try "Roll her in the ryegrass," "The Boyne Hunt," "The Virginia," well we could go on and on.
Don't focus on the limited number of tunes that are off limits on your instrument, especially if you are just learning to play. The glass is not half empty. The glass is half full, actually overflowing with more great tunes playable on a 20 key C/G than most beginning students will have time to *master* in their first couple years of playing. Actually in my experience (when I have had a chance to hear them play), few if any of the concertina players who insist they "must" have a 3 row concertina to play actually sound nearly as good as John Kelly and Mrs. Crotty sounded on the 20 keys they used. [For clarity, what I mean is that John and Elizabeth used 20 keys only when playing on their 3 row instruments).
All the best, Paul
# Posted on September 8th 2008 by Paul Groff
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
I have to repost to amend an unintended implication of my previous post, since this site doesn't allow edits.
When I wrote that " few if any players who insist they must have a 3 row concertina to play......sound nearly as good as John Kelly or Mrs. Crotty" (to me), I meant only to be talking about novice players, or folks who don't play at all, who despite their inexperience often express strong opinions that 2 row concertinas don't have enough notes. My point was that many novice players lack the experience to know how much great music can be made with 20 keys, and would do better to focus on what makes the music sound good than on what tunes cannot be played on a 2-row.
I did not mean in any way to insult the dozens, maybe hundreds of mighty concertina players these days whose styles do depend heavily on the third row. Advanced anglo players do know what they need of course, and are usually very happy to invest as much as they can afford in a great 3 row concertina.
But beginners should not be discouraged away from the concertina because the instrument they have (or the best they can afford) has only 20 keys, given the history of great music made with 20-keys by the older musicians I mentioned. Maybe we would have many more young people take up this instrument, less discouraged by its cost, if redesigned concertinas with 20 keys (or better, 21 or 22 keys, allowing the "key" C# noted by Col Arco) -- redesigned for improved quality and ergonomics --were more widely available.
PG
# Posted on September 10th 2008 by Paul Groff
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Paul - you say that what you said "does not seem to have gotten through".
I'm not a beginnner at TM and I'm not stupid. I'm perfectly aware that 1000s of tunes can be played on an instrument that has only the naturals plus F#. However, the initial question turned on playing such a concertina at sessions.
As you no doubt know, "theSession" has a facility which allows members to add a tune to their personal tunebook. Using this as a rough benchmark to ITM tune popularity, the "top ten" tunes are:
Drowsy Maggie
The Kesh
The Butterfly
Cooley's
Morrison's
The Silver Spear
The Banshee
The Maid Behind the Bar
Banish Misfortune
The Wind that Shakes the Barley
Six of the above tunes require a C# as well, so without it, you wouldn't be able to play 60% of them - including the most "popular" tune on theSession - Drowsie Maggie. Unless of course your instrument was modified to provide C#. That is why I said that a C/G two-row would be limiting in a session context.
And for the record, I'm very much in favour of having all types of concertina at sessions and elswhere, incuding Anglo, English and Duet.
And I also said that any working instument would be OK for learning on, and that one could always upgrade later - (which if you read Marcianne's last post in this thread), is what she she is apparently planning to do!
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
I disagree with the claim that six of those ten tunes require a C#. The Kesh, The Butterfly, The Silver Spear, and The Banshee have no C#.
The C#s in the 1st version of Cooley's posted at thesession.org are a peculiarity of that version; it's very easy to find common versions that avoid them.
Morrison's has two c#s. You can substitute a d for the first and an e for the second, or leave them out entirely, and in the noisy pub environment, hardly anyone will notice.
Likewise, in Maid Behind the Bar, the few c#s can be omitted, or the B that precedes them can be held longer, or you can double up on the d that follows them.
The four c#s in Banish Misfortune can be replaced by d (or c natural if your session mates are up for trying something unusual).
In Wind that Shakes the Barley, try replacing Bc#dB with BedB and Bc#de with BAde.
That leaves only Drowsy Maggie as a problem. For that one you just need to convince the others that The Reel With the Birl is close enough (and a nicer tune, to boot) to play instead.
So now you can play 90% and have an outside shot at 100%.
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Hi Gary - regarding the Silver Spear - sorry - of course, although it's In D-Major, there aren't any Cs in it (and therefore no C#s). My mistake - I'll concede you that one!
But that still leaves five out of the ten involving a "compromise".
Fine if you are playing solo - perhaps at home. But playing a "D" at a session when everyone else was playing "C#"? would be discordant, and might attract a glare or to from fiddle players and the like - or at least it would, at the sessions that I atttend. And none of this addresses the lack of a G#, and the problems that you would get with all those great tunes in A-Major (or related modal or minor keys).
A limitation is a matter of plain fact, not a matter of opinion. In reality, any non-chromatic instrument has limitations. But that doesn't matter too much for TM tunes, providing that you have a reasonable range, all the naturals - and F# C# G#. And if you intend to use your instrument to accompany songs, it's better to have all the flats and the other sharps as well.
Changing the subject, I see from your profile that you have committed the words of 300 songs to memory (or maybe only 150 on a bad day). Either way, very impressive. Speaking personally, I prefer sessions that have songs as well as tunes. Not all would agree with me on that one, either!
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Mix
I quote your first response to Marcianne:
"So you will only be able to play in two keys. If the Stagi two-row that you have is a C/G, you will be effectively be limited to playing in one key (G) at sessions, as C is rarely used for TM."
Leaving aside the absurdity of suggesting the "need for a G/D/A three row concertina," from which you have also retreated, I am glad to see you have substantially altered the position you originally held.
Shows that even though you may not be a beginner, you are willing to learn something new!
All the best,
Paul
# Posted on September 11th 2008 by Paul Groff
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Notice that you kept very quite about about playing "D" when other folks are playing "C#". Or have you now stopped doing that? If so, maybe you've learned something new?
Admittedly, I had ever noticed that "Silver Spear" didn't have a C# in it, even though it's in D-Major. That's because (a) I never play from music (athough I can read it perfectly well) and (b) I don't play instruments that don't have a C# available.
And hey, why don't you post up that list of 150-300 songs that you say that you can sing word-perfect from memory? Do any of the melodies of those contain a C# ?
# Posted on September 12th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
I started to write a reply, but didn't have time to finish it.
In each of the places that I suggested playing d rather than c#, the chord being played at the time (if there's a backer playing) would most likely be a D major or B minor chord. Each of those has a D in it. So you wouldn't be the only player playing a D while the other melody players are playing C#. It wouldn't really clash. In the situations where it would clash, I suggested playing something else (like an E for the second C# in Morrisons) or leaving the note out entirely. If there are no backers, it would sound a little odd IF the pub were quiet enough for one instrument to be heard playing a different note than the rest for 1/8 of a second.
Why do you assume that because I suggest that something would work that I am doing it myself? I've got C#s on my concertina and I do use them.
This isn't a website about songs, only a small fraction of my repertoire is Irish, most of them you've never heard of, I never said that I can sing them word-perfect, and it's been years since I updated my list.
You mention wanting to play lots of tunes in A Major. There are very few Irish tunes in A Major. There are quite a few in A Mixolydian, for which the C# would be important. If you're playing lots of A Major tunes, they're probably Scottish, Quebecois, or old-time, and an Irish-style tuning, even with 3 rows, probably isn't the ideal choice.
You also talk about accompanying songs. I haven't come across many instances of concertinas (or even other melody instruments) accompanying songs in sessions in Ireland. That strikes me as being more of an English and American thing. At the sessions I go to, I'll accompany if the singer is in F, C, G, D, or A, and put the concertina down if not. Anglo players who are serious about being able to accompany a song in any key have to carry around (and be able to afford) three instruments (or be really amazing players).
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Hmm...I just checked your website, and the version of Banish Misfortune you have doesn't have any C#s. In fact the ones I suggested changing to Ds are already Ds in your version!
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Gary,
I don't think we ever met when I lived in New England but obviously you and I share a similar point of view about how many tunes in many different keys can be played in nice settings on a 20 key C/G concertina.
On the other hand I will offer a slightly different perspective on just one point. I think it's very interesting to accompany songs (and play other arrangements of many kinds of music) in all 12 keys on a 3 row anglo. I spent some time doing that and a three row C/G (or any other traditional pair of keys) can be used that way. It helps to have 33 or more buttons if you want to exploit the three-row anglo as a fully chromatic chordal instrument. I also have enjoyed playing traditional tunes in very unfamiliar keys on the 3 row anglo. This is not the best use of practice time for most "total beginners" like Marcianne who want to learn traditional music, but very rewarding for experienced players who like a challenge.
But the latter way of playing is not the traditional approach to playing Irish music on the concertina. Up to WW2 probably the vast majority of players, even the very best ones, started on 2 row German concertinas and found settings of tunes that worked great for dancing and listening on those "limited" instruments. Of course, every musical instrument is "limited" compared to some others, in some dimension of music making (no melody notes below the nominal "D" on most irish pipes, most whistles, and many flutes, no harmony or drone notes on many instruments, many of the wind instruments strongly favor some keys over others, fretted instruments don't give a sustained tone.....). But what is relevant to a musician is what can be achieved with the instrument he is playing. And some of the great Irish concertina players of the twentieth century showed again and again what can be achieved with 20 buttons or less -- since even when they were able to play on a 3 row they rarely or never used that third row. I believe Mrs. Crotty and John Kelly preferred the 3-row concertinas on which most of their recordings were made only because those particular instruments had the best tone and response of any they could obtain, not because they needed more notes. Johnny Connolly shows how many hours of music of the highest quality can be made on a Hohner 10 key melodeon -- the kind of instrument that many inferior players consider to be beneath them.
I am honestly very happy to see that Mix O'Lydian is now willing to acknowledge the thousands of tunes in many keys that are playable on a 2-row anglo. He is even willing to include "major sounding tunes with no C#" in his definition of "D major," which is actually a little farther than I usually go. But if they have no C natural either, for purposes of coaching the guitar backer
most of these might as well be in D major.
It is a little discouraging in an argument when someone changes his position so drastically but still seems to be asserting he was "right all along.'" Even more discouraging to see personal attacks. I tried to stick to the arguments about facts, and also to make a point that newcomers to the concertina need encouragement and practical advice. But I admit that eventually I did lose patience a little.
So Mix, sorry if you felt attacked by me. Your erroneous claim to Marcianne that a 2-row can "essentially play only in G" is a cliche I have had to refute many times, and is usually believed most strongly by the most ignorant. Like many false and unconstructive ideas it does contain a grain of truth. You can cling to that grain if you insist. But I hope you also enjoy playing your concertina, in all the many tonalities it can accommodate... or invest in a 3 row if you prefer. No matter which, in my experience the number of notes available on the instrument or used in a setting doesn't really correlate with the quality of the music. Quality comes from something else and can be there when few notes are played, or can be missing despite all the 88 notes of a piano.
All the best,
Paul
# Posted on September 13th 2008 by Paul Groff
Re: An old friend just gave me a concertina
Hi Gary - nice reply - well considered!
I note that you do have C# available on your concertina, and that you do use it! Admittedly, having a G# is of less importance. Where I live, we have quite a big choice of sessions to go to. Some of these are 100% Irish, (mostly tunes). Others have mixed traditional material (with songs, as well of tunes). As you rightly say, most of the tunes in A-Major tend to be Scottish. Quite a few of these are played at sessions that I attend, e.g. Mason's Apron, Devil Among the Tailors, Angus Campbell etc., - hence the need for having a G#.
In my area, interest and support for Irish traditional music seems to be increasing. Sadly though, support for the traditional songs (all countries) is at a low ebb, running at only about 1/10th the level of what it was 20 or 30 years go. And when you do get a song, it's often one that was sung a few weeks previously - in spite of there being tens of thousands of songs to choose from. That's why I would be genuinely interested in seeing your list of songs. If you have your list machine-readable, maybe you could email it to me.
With regard to "Banish Misfortune", some while ago I was experimenting with it, to see what it would sound like as a pure Mixolydian tune (i.e. without the various modulations into D-Major). I quite liked the result, but of course, nobody actually plays it that way, so it isn't really a "version" at all. Unfortunately, that was the one that I put on my website - an error, so thanks for telling me! I've sinced replaced it with the normal "standard" version. Most websites contain errors - even the big corporate ones. My site is just a not-for-profit community thing, but is also prone to errors. However, I'm happy to correct any if people tell me - so thanks for that!
# Posted on September 15th 2008 by Mix O'Lydian