I'm fairly new to mandolin. I have a casual understanding of music theory, like what the main scales are, intervals, key signatures, how to make triad chords in a scale, etc.
Most of my mandolin playing is playing the straight sheet music for session songs. At the session I go to, I'm not at the point where I can keep up with most of the songs (but I'm getting there!) I'd like to learn to play chords for those songs, so I can at least participate and get a better feel for them, but I'm stuck on figuring out the right chords.
Can anyone give me a pointers on where to get started on learning how to figure out chords that go to a tune? I can't find chords online for most of the songs. Example songs would be Shoe The Donkey, King of the Faeries, Return of the Sailor.
Pointers to a good chord repository on the web, typical chord progressions in Irish music, or how to figure out the chords myself would be great.
Thanks for any help!
Mike
P.S. My 11 year old daughter keeps up with the group (on violin) much better than I do -- but she is pretty good I must say!
mel bays mandolin chords.
a minor to g is a common progression,with f ma7in between[face]
eminor to dmajor[drowsy maggie etc]
d major to c.
g c d emi amin.[in different combinations, likewise d major bminor amajor gmajor f#minorin different combinations
this is an over simplification but it might help getting youstarted
My advice would be to keep working at learning the tunes. Fight the temptation to join in with mandolin chords.
A few other thoughts, Mike. "King of the Faeries" etc should be referred to as a "tune" not a "song". A song implies lyrics that you sing. Believe it or not, some people actually get pretty prickly about this. I know it's hard to get used to, as an American, where in bluegrass nearly everything - vocal and instrumental - is called a "song".
Also, some people really hate chordal accompaniment to Irish tunes unless it's done really well. Not beginner stuff as a substitute for playing the tune! Mandos work great in bluegrass, with percussive chop chord backing, but that sound doesn't work as well in Irish music.
Now, if your session is a more eclectic, easy going jam than a hard-core, pure drop, trad-policed Irish session, what you're proposing might be perfectly okay. I'd ask first, though. Maybe a guitar player could tell you which chords they use to accompany various tunes. Best of luck to you.
A guitar is tuned in 4ths, but mandolins and banjos are tunes in 5ths, so you can take any chord shape you know from guitar and "flip it over" or invert it to find the chords on mando and banjo. I learned that old trick working in recording studios back in Dallas.
To know what chord to play when, look at the melody. You need to be able to tell which notes are chord tones and which notes are passing tones or neighboring tones.
consider an phrase like this:
gabg bcbg
the g's and b's fall on strong beats, so there's a good chance a G chord will work out. The "a" in the first quaver is clearly filling in the line from the g to the b and is probably functioning in the melody as a passing tone.
The "c" in the second quaver is moving away from the b, then moving back, so it is probably the "b" that is the strong note in that phrase.
Those are the types of clues to look for when deciding how to harmonize a melody.
If you notice, I always hedged by saying "probably".
that's because musical phrases are not cut and dried one way or the other. This is what makes backing so tricky. What ever your choice, it should make sense musically in the context of the tune.
so while all this is a little complicated, the basic idea is to get a sense of what chords are common in what modes, then look for clues in the tune's melody for where the changes in chord should take place.
there is no right or wrong, really. There's only getting glared at by the other musicians when you play something that is out of place. For me, I always remember what my old teacher used to tell me, "music is hard and tricky"
I'm sure its obvious that I'm an American with little (though I do have some, way back) Irish blood. I'm just a computer programmer with 5 kids who needed a productive hobby to help prevent a nervous breakdown I don't even know how I got settled into playing Irish tunes on mandolin, but I'm enjoying it.
Thanks for your patience with me as I enter into a culture I have no background in.
fidkid -- the session seems fairly traditional but has some variety to it. I appreciate your advice on sticking with the tunes. Part of my desire to learn chords is to eventually add a little flavor as I play the tune (an extra note of harmony here and there).
We have several guitar players, a couple mandolins, several fiddles, whistles, accordian, bohdrain, a bass, and a banjo -- from an "outsider's" view it seems pretty diverse.
Thanks also for the chord ideas to all (including the email I received already).
Thanks Nate. That's really helpful. I'll check out the link later on.
Speaking of chords for modes: I know the general I, IV, V for major and i, iv, v for minor scales, but I can't find any reference any where for what chords go with the other modes? Is it still 1, 4, and 5 but with whatever triads happen to be at those intervals? I'm still coming up to speed on this stuff, so what I just said may be wrong anyhow!
Mike, a big and very enjoyable part of the hobby is to listen to good Irish music whenever you can - partly so the tunes get stuck in your head, and partly so the style of playing gets embedded (easier than a blood transfusion!) There's fabulous end very enjoyable examples to listen to and watch here:
There's also a huge amount of good traditional music available on CDs, including many commercial bands who play (or used to play) this stuff very well such as Altan, Dervish, De Dannan, Bothy Band, and Planxty - check your library for some of these.
Mandolin strumming works a whole lot better in bluegrass than it does in Irish music, and you won't find much of it on the CDs I mention above. It's not just a question of "correctness" or whether the session is easy-going or not. The "chopping" just tends to work against the flow of music. Melody playing of Irish tunes on the mandolin is wonderful, however, and there are lots of great players in this style - Paul Kelly, Mick Moloney, etc., etc.
I hope you have many years of fun playing the music. And you're very lucky to share this with your daughter!
Mike -- for Dorian the main chords are the i and VII. For Mixolydian they are the I and VII. In both modes, you can sort of play around with the IV and the ii, but don't dwell on them. This is a gross oversimplification but it should put you on the right path.
the chords in different modes are over on Mix's website there in the link, but no, they won't strictly follow the I, IV, V pattern
The chords are, however, related to the I,IV, V of the key signature. That's not technically acurate, but its one way of thinking of it.
I better elaborate a little...in D mixolydian, the common chords are D,A,C, and G
D mix is one sharp, same a G major. And what are the I, IV, and V of G major? G, C, and D
now remember that the chord on the second scale degree also functions as a subdominant (or IV chord) and there you have the lot of them.
Now mixolydian is not the best example because there are usually accidentals in mixolydian melodies. Note that the A is a major or dominant 7th chord and not a minor chord, which means that a C# has to be introduced, but that's your leading tone in D anyway.
So there is a relationship between the common chords of a mode and the tonic, subsominant, dominant harmonic relationships, but the actual chords might be I-VII or I-II-VII in the particular mode itself.
hope that made sense and didn't get confusing. Never ask me what time it is, because I'm just as likely to tell you how to build a watch.
So while it really isn't complicated, there are alot of relationships there to explore.
Since you have no particular attachment to Irish music in itself, I reckon you will also get the same pleasure from playing Scottish and Shetland tunes. If you ever find yourself in Scotland or Shetland, you'll find they don't have any dogmatic objection to mandolin chords, but it has to be said that mandolin is primarily a melodic (like a fiddle) rather than harmonic (like a guitar), instrument. Knowledge of and a feel for chord harmony will definitely help you with double stops etc though.
Nigel's site has a good spread of Irish, Scottish, Shetland and American tunes and - gasp! - chord suggestions.
Thanks again everyone for the variety of input, from help with chords to recommendations to stick with the melody.
We're not discussing the salvation of souls, so I think there's room for different views Some are here to preserve the Irish tradition and that is very admirable. Some are here to enjoy music in a broader sense. I'm glad everyone has taken time to give me their thoughts -- it has all been good!
I've got enough to chew on for a while, and I did just send a message to the organizer of our session asking about their preference on harmonies, etc.
I look forward to more interaction with you folk! Who knows, maybe one day soon I'll have it together enough to get out of the back corner of the session and play with the group
Thanks again,
Mike
Bren - I've been to Mandolin Cafe many times and have many of the MP3's off that site. Haven't been to Nigel Gatherer's yet, though.
Also, I'd suggest you talk with the other mandolinists in the session. they can not only tell you what the usual thing is, but could give you suggestions on which chords they use and when. Two similar chord instruments playing different chords isn't particularly a good thing.
Speaking from experience,playing chords on the mandolin tends to attract dirty looks from the other participants.If you want to play chords on the mandolin,stick to bluegrass.
Tastefully inserting chords in the course of playing melody can work extremely well.
Strumming is a different matter. The main objection comes up when the bluegrass "chopping" style is forced on top of Irish traditional music. Strumming in a more relaxed style such as that used by better guitarists is easier on the ear, but the higher pitch of the mando doesn't seem to me to blend as well as, say, the lower register of a guitar or a bouzouki.
Two or three points;
One; it's tunes we play, not songs.
Two; if you want to play chords, use a guitar or a lower-pitched mando-family member.
Three; There IS a different style to ITM; it's not bluegrass, don't try bluegrass 'chops', as said above.
Four; as already said, learn the tunes; this is predominantly a melody-lead tradition.
Wow, it's been a while since I first posted this! I've progressed a bit in my mandolin skills, though not as far as I'd have liked.
I've actually used much from this discussion in my "going forward". Most of my playing is melody, so that fits in well with the ITM I am learning how to add double stops and other harmony and how to fit chords to a melody (don't worry, no chop chords whilst picking an Irish tune).
Queen of the Fairies is in A Dorian. Taking advice from timmy! on chords for Dorian and picking out notes on the strong beat from Nate Ryan, I was able to come up with a chord progression for Queen of the Fairies.
I'm actually rather pleased with it It goes
A: Am G F#dim Bm Am G Am G Am
B: Am G Am G Am G Am
I've fixed up an ABC of it:
X:1
T:Queen Of The Fairies
M:4/4
L:1/8
R:hornpipe
K:Ador
|: "Am" AG | E2 A2 AB cd | e2a2 "G" g3 d | "F#dim" (3efe d2 "Bm" (3cdc B2 | "Am" ABAG E2 "G" D2 |
"Am" E2 A2 AB cd | e2a2 "G" g3 d | e2 de g2 de |1 B2 "Am" A2 A2 :|2 B2 "Am" A2 A2 AG ||
|: E2 A2 c2 A2 | e3 B cBAG | E2 "G" G2 D2 G2 | "Am" E2 "G" DE GEDB |
"Am" E2 A2 c2 A2 | e3 d cBAG | E2 "G" DE G2 B2 |1 "Am" c2 A2 A2 AG :|2 "Am"c2 A2 A2 ||
I'm currently adding double stops to the raw melody and it's starting to sound good.
Written on the treble clef there is a chord in dotted minims for example (two or more are open strings) and within the same bar theres the melody in notes of smaller value continuing on the top of the chord. It happens frequently in Renaissance Music for four course cittern.
Q. How is the chord sustained while play the melody
Mandolin & chords
Mandolin & chords
I'm fairly new to mandolin. I have a casual understanding of music theory, like what the main scales are, intervals, key signatures, how to make triad chords in a scale, etc.
Most of my mandolin playing is playing the straight sheet music for session songs. At the session I go to, I'm not at the point where I can keep up with most of the songs (but I'm getting there!) I'd like to learn to play chords for those songs, so I can at least participate and get a better feel for them, but I'm stuck on figuring out the right chords.
Can anyone give me a pointers on where to get started on learning how to figure out chords that go to a tune? I can't find chords online for most of the songs. Example songs would be Shoe The Donkey, King of the Faeries, Return of the Sailor.
Pointers to a good chord repository on the web, typical chord progressions in Irish music, or how to figure out the chords myself would be great.
Thanks for any help!
Mike
P.S. My 11 year old daughter keeps up with the group (on violin) much better than I do -- but she is pretty good I must say!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by MikeJansen
Re: Mandolin & chords
mel bays mandolin chords.
a minor to g is a common progression,with f ma7in between[face]
eminor to dmajor[drowsy maggie etc]
d major to c.
g c d emi amin.[in different combinations, likewise d major bminor amajor gmajor f#minorin different combinations
this is an over simplification but it might help getting youstarted
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Dick Miles
Re: Mandolin & chords
My advice would be to keep working at learning the tunes. Fight the temptation to join in with mandolin chords.
A few other thoughts, Mike. "King of the Faeries" etc should be referred to as a "tune" not a "song". A song implies lyrics that you sing. Believe it or not, some people actually get pretty prickly about this. I know it's hard to get used to, as an American, where in bluegrass nearly everything - vocal and instrumental - is called a "song".
Also, some people really hate chordal accompaniment to Irish tunes unless it's done really well. Not beginner stuff as a substitute for playing the tune! Mandos work great in bluegrass, with percussive chop chord backing, but that sound doesn't work as well in Irish music.
Now, if your session is a more eclectic, easy going jam than a hard-core, pure drop, trad-policed Irish session, what you're proposing might be perfectly okay. I'd ask first, though. Maybe a guitar player could tell you which chords they use to accompany various tunes. Best of luck to you.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by fidkid
Re: Mandolin & chords
Mixolydian, here on this board, recently put up a website for guitar players that might help you get an idea.
The chord shapes in the diagrams won't apply directly, but what he has to say about common chords in the different modes will apply.
here's the link
http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/index.htm
A guitar is tuned in 4ths, but mandolins and banjos are tunes in 5ths, so you can take any chord shape you know from guitar and "flip it over" or invert it to find the chords on mando and banjo. I learned that old trick working in recording studios back in Dallas.
To know what chord to play when, look at the melody. You need to be able to tell which notes are chord tones and which notes are passing tones or neighboring tones.
consider an phrase like this:
gabg bcbg
the g's and b's fall on strong beats, so there's a good chance a G chord will work out. The "a" in the first quaver is clearly filling in the line from the g to the b and is probably functioning in the melody as a passing tone.
The "c" in the second quaver is moving away from the b, then moving back, so it is probably the "b" that is the strong note in that phrase.
Those are the types of clues to look for when deciding how to harmonize a melody.
If you notice, I always hedged by saying "probably".
that's because musical phrases are not cut and dried one way or the other. This is what makes backing so tricky. What ever your choice, it should make sense musically in the context of the tune.
so while all this is a little complicated, the basic idea is to get a sense of what chords are common in what modes, then look for clues in the tune's melody for where the changes in chord should take place.
there is no right or wrong, really. There's only getting glared at by the other musicians when you play something that is out of place. For me, I always remember what my old teacher used to tell me, "music is hard and tricky"
best of luck
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Mandolin & chords
Thanks for the advice so far.
I don't even know how I got settled into playing Irish tunes on mandolin, but I'm enjoying it.
I'm sure its obvious that I'm an American with little (though I do have some, way back) Irish blood. I'm just a computer programmer with 5 kids who needed a productive hobby to help prevent a nervous breakdown
Thanks for your patience with me as I enter into a culture I have no background in.
fidkid -- the session seems fairly traditional but has some variety to it. I appreciate your advice on sticking with the tunes. Part of my desire to learn chords is to eventually add a little flavor as I play the tune (an extra note of harmony here and there).
We have several guitar players, a couple mandolins, several fiddles, whistles, accordian, bohdrain, a bass, and a banjo -- from an "outsider's" view it seems pretty diverse.
Thanks also for the chord ideas to all (including the email I received already).
Mike
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by MikeJansen
Re: Mandolin & chords
heres a couple i rate:
http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/
http://home.comcast.net/~saustin98/lark/
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Mandolin & chords
Thanks Nate. That's really helpful. I'll check out the link later on.
Speaking of chords for modes: I know the general I, IV, V for major and i, iv, v for minor scales, but I can't find any reference any where for what chords go with the other modes? Is it still 1, 4, and 5 but with whatever triads happen to be at those intervals? I'm still coming up to speed on this stuff, so what I just said may be wrong anyhow!
Thanks again,
Mike
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by MikeJansen
Re: Mandolin & chords
Should have read the links first: Looks like the www.intermix.freeuk.com site may answer my mode questions.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by MikeJansen
Re: Mandolin & chords
Mike, a big and very enjoyable part of the hobby is to listen to good Irish music whenever you can - partly so the tunes get stuck in your head, and partly so the style of playing gets embedded (easier than a blood transfusion!) There's fabulous end very enjoyable examples to listen to and watch here:
http://comhaltas.ie/music/archive/C62/
There's also a huge amount of good traditional music available on CDs, including many commercial bands who play (or used to play) this stuff very well such as Altan, Dervish, De Dannan, Bothy Band, and Planxty - check your library for some of these.
Mandolin strumming works a whole lot better in bluegrass than it does in Irish music, and you won't find much of it on the CDs I mention above. It's not just a question of "correctness" or whether the session is easy-going or not. The "chopping" just tends to work against the flow of music. Melody playing of Irish tunes on the mandolin is wonderful, however, and there are lots of great players in this style - Paul Kelly, Mick Moloney, etc., etc.
I hope you have many years of fun playing the music. And you're very lucky to share this with your daughter!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by grego
Re: Mandolin & chords
Mike -- for Dorian the main chords are the i and VII. For Mixolydian they are the I and VII. In both modes, you can sort of play around with the IV and the ii, but don't dwell on them. This is a gross oversimplification but it should put you on the right path.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by timmy!
Re: Mandolin & chords
the chords in different modes are over on Mix's website there in the link, but no, they won't strictly follow the I, IV, V pattern
The chords are, however, related to the I,IV, V of the key signature. That's not technically acurate, but its one way of thinking of it.
I better elaborate a little...in D mixolydian, the common chords are D,A,C, and G
D mix is one sharp, same a G major. And what are the I, IV, and V of G major? G, C, and D
now remember that the chord on the second scale degree also functions as a subdominant (or IV chord) and there you have the lot of them.
Now mixolydian is not the best example because there are usually accidentals in mixolydian melodies. Note that the A is a major or dominant 7th chord and not a minor chord, which means that a C# has to be introduced, but that's your leading tone in D anyway.
So there is a relationship between the common chords of a mode and the tonic, subsominant, dominant harmonic relationships, but the actual chords might be I-VII or I-II-VII in the particular mode itself.
hope that made sense and didn't get confusing. Never ask me what time it is, because I'm just as likely to tell you how to build a watch.
So while it really isn't complicated, there are alot of relationships there to explore.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Mandolin & chords
Mike - a couple of things.
First, if you haven't already, check out
http://www.mandolincafe.com.
Second, check out Nigel Gatherer's excellent site:
http://www.nigelgatherer.com/
Since you have no particular attachment to Irish music in itself, I reckon you will also get the same pleasure from playing Scottish and Shetland tunes. If you ever find yourself in Scotland or Shetland, you'll find they don't have any dogmatic objection to mandolin chords, but it has to be said that mandolin is primarily a melodic (like a fiddle) rather than harmonic (like a guitar), instrument. Knowledge of and a feel for chord harmony will definitely help you with double stops etc though.
Nigel's site has a good spread of Irish, Scottish, Shetland and American tunes and - gasp! - chord suggestions.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Mandolin & chords
Thanks again everyone for the variety of input, from help with chords to recommendations to stick with the melody.
Some are here to preserve the Irish tradition and that is very admirable. Some are here to enjoy music in a broader sense. I'm glad everyone has taken time to give me their thoughts -- it has all been good!
We're not discussing the salvation of souls, so I think there's room for different views
I've got enough to chew on for a while, and I did just send a message to the organizer of our session asking about their preference on harmonies, etc.
I look forward to more interaction with you folk! Who knows, maybe one day soon I'll have it together enough to get out of the back corner of the session and play with the group
Thanks again,
Mike
Bren - I've been to Mandolin Cafe many times and have many of the MP3's off that site. Haven't been to Nigel Gatherer's yet, though.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by MikeJansen
Re: Mandolin & chords
And learn the "Down Home Waltz" by Buck White.
Written by a mandolinist for mandolinists and rapidly gaining favour in Scotland and Shetland.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Mandolin & chords
Also, I'd suggest you talk with the other mandolinists in the session. they can not only tell you what the usual thing is, but could give you suggestions on which chords they use and when. Two similar chord instruments playing different chords isn't particularly a good thing.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Mandogal
Re: Mandolin & chords
Some mando-inspiration:
http://www.paythereckoning.com/thepage.htm
The main page also has a link to a downloadable tune book:
http://www.paythereckoning.com/
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by mcswiss
Re: Mandolin & chords
Speaking from experience,playing chords on the mandolin tends to attract dirty looks from the other participants.If you want to play chords on the mandolin,stick to bluegrass.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by dafydd
Re: Mandolin & chords
".If you want to play chords on the mandolin,stick to bluegrass."
Is it really so black and white?
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by timmy!
Re: Mandolin & chords
Tastefully inserting chords in the course of playing melody can work extremely well.
Strumming is a different matter. The main objection comes up when the bluegrass "chopping" style is forced on top of Irish traditional music. Strumming in a more relaxed style such as that used by better guitarists is easier on the ear, but the higher pitch of the mando doesn't seem to me to blend as well as, say, the lower register of a guitar or a bouzouki.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by grego
Re: Mandolin & chords
Two or three points;
One; it's tunes we play, not songs.
Two; if you want to play chords, use a guitar or a lower-pitched mando-family member.
Three; There IS a different style to ITM; it's not bluegrass, don't try bluegrass 'chops', as said above.
Four; as already said, learn the tunes; this is predominantly a melody-lead tradition.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Mandolin & chords
If you want to play chords,go ahead. I tried it a couple of times at sessions and it didn't go down well.Learn the tunes,that's what i did.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by dafydd
Re: Mandolin & chords
Wow, it's been a while since I first posted this! I've progressed a bit in my mandolin skills, though not as far as I'd have liked.
I am learning how to add double stops and other harmony and how to fit chords to a melody (don't worry, no chop chords whilst picking an Irish tune).
It goes
I've actually used much from this discussion in my "going forward". Most of my playing is melody, so that fits in well with the ITM
I came across a recent addition to The Session, Queen of the Fairies (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/10215), which seems to be a compliment to King of the Fairies (http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/475).
Queen of the Fairies is in A Dorian. Taking advice from timmy! on chords for Dorian and picking out notes on the strong beat from Nate Ryan, I was able to come up with a chord progression for Queen of the Fairies.
I'm actually rather pleased with it
A: Am G F#dim Bm Am G Am G Am
B: Am G Am G Am G Am
I've fixed up an ABC of it:
X:1
T:Queen Of The Fairies
M:4/4
L:1/8
R:hornpipe
K:Ador
|: "Am" AG | E2 A2 AB cd | e2a2 "G" g3 d | "F#dim" (3efe d2 "Bm" (3cdc B2 | "Am" ABAG E2 "G" D2 |
"Am" E2 A2 AB cd | e2a2 "G" g3 d | e2 de g2 de |1 B2 "Am" A2 A2 :|2 B2 "Am" A2 A2 AG ||
|: E2 A2 c2 A2 | e3 B cBAG | E2 "G" G2 D2 G2 | "Am" E2 "G" DE GEDB |
"Am" E2 A2 c2 A2 | e3 d cBAG | E2 "G" DE G2 B2 |1 "Am" c2 A2 A2 AG :|2 "Am"c2 A2 A2 ||
I'm currently adding double stops to the raw melody and it's starting to sound good.
Thanks to everyone for your input!
# Posted on February 10th 2010 by MikeJansen
Re: Mandolin & chords
Written on the treble clef there is a chord in dotted minims for example (two or more are open strings) and within the same bar theres the melody in notes of smaller value continuing on the top of the chord. It happens frequently in Renaissance Music for four course cittern.
Q. How is the chord sustained while play the melody
# Posted on January 24th 2012 by O'Riabhaigh