Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm sure! Like politics though, we doesn't usually get into it too much, mainly because violence and foul language usually accompanies most discussions of religion and politics. We usually try to stay on topic, you know, violins and fowl language.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Agnostic.
Those that believe in (a, the) god(s) and those that believe no such god(s) exist are all claiming to know with certainty the ultimate nature of the universe. They're all fools, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm like Socrates: I at least know that I do not know.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Tho many have tried, nobody has ever explained to me what religion is.I go to funerals in assorted religious buildings and mumble along with the various prayers and stuff. I love the singalong bits, esp Abide with Me
I have chucked a few bob in the plate over the years because it seemed to be the done thing.
Am I religious?
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Like Jusa Nutter Eejit, in a pew every Sunday, always behind an instrument of some sort. (The second reason Irish music doesn't get the attention I would otherwise give it, the first being the old day job thingy, from which I hope to derive enough retirement funds to buy the freedom to play what I like in my dotage.)
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Pagan. Dawkins is the man for me. One of those Catholics I am who managed to cast off the long shadow. Agnostics are just wusses and there's no such thing as atheism. Because there's no such thing. I'm trying to think of a tune title to sum up how I feel. I have two heroes. Jesus and Beethoven.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Agnostics are just wusses..."
That's based on the misunderstanding that a lot of people have about agnostics as just being unable to pick a side. That's not really what it means. It doesn't mean that you're sitting on the fence, it's a firm philosophical position.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Do you really expect truly religious people to step into this crock of guano ?"
Why not ? Isn't the whole world a crock of guano. Didn't Christ mix with the trashiest riff-raff, prostitutes, lepers, tax gatherers, etc.
The way I see it, you go into the (figurative) desert, to have peace and get your head together, and then you return to the (figurative) market place, which, like any large flea market, is full of pimps, madmen, musicians, clowns, thieves, every kind of person...just like this site...
Anyway, what does it matter ? We're all trashing the planet like there was no tomorrow, ensuring that there will be no tomorrow...way I see it, in another few decades there's going to be nobody around because the biosphere will have collapsed...
We've exceeded the carrying capacity of this planet. Expect a crash. Whatever you believe or don't believe will make no difference whatsoever.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
If I'm not mistaken, guitar101 is the same person who revved up the board with some very racist stuff a while back. He had several handles going at once, but I don't remember the others offhand. Jeremy banned him for a while and now he's back and, IMHO, heading in the same direction.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
gw - I suspect you may be right about guitar101 - the fellow that loved The Pogues and lamented immigrants ruining Irish culture - I remember those posts all too well.
As far as faith founders go, let me just speculate that I can easily imagine both Jesus and the Buddha at a session and enjoying the music.
However, I can't imagine Mohammed, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, enjoying any music ever.
Go ahead - put a fatwa on me, but I'd rather have tunes with Jesus and Buddha.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Don’t they say the universe is an explosion in the course of still happening, starting out with the big bang and ending up like a skyrocket exploding then coming down like a burnt stick?
I think they calculate that that we are more than half way along the explosion continuum at the moment, while the universe is still expanding but it will eventually slow down and peter out - a bit like a sun getting to the end of its use-by date and imploding.
Maybe it’s all a series of cycles, like Hinduism says it is. Whatever, it seems that it isn’t apparently a perfect or permanent system and wasn’t meant to be. (I always thought God made perfect things; if he/she didn’t make this, then who did? Sounds like a badly thought-out bet at best; and someone lost!)
“Religion” in its various forms seems to me to be ancient attempts to put a handle on all this, after all, they didn’t know about big bang theory back then – did they? Not necessarily invalid, but ways to explain “why”.
I like the handle that Kabbalah puts on this sort of thing – God’s is an "emanation", but hey, that's whole other theory.
Interesting eh? Not necessarily a religion if you don’t want it to be, but a handy way of thinking about all this stuff, I find anyway.
In some ways, from that point of view, all “religions” would be fairly compatible, in a general sense, I would have thought.
Don’t know how many people would be “religious”, but probably there’d be heaps who’d be philosophic, if they really thought about it. Probably more in music than not, I get the impression. Something about music that seems to fit somewhere in all this – probably something about mathematics or the golden mean or something like that, don’t you think?
All interesting stuff with a Guinness and a few tunes! - If your "religion" permits those sorts of things that is!
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Very religious. Raised Catholic; understand why most of the teachings were rammed down our throats; started to really read the Bible when I took a New Testament course in grad school. The words of the Bible go beyond organized religion. I believe in an afterlife, and I talk to my Dad all the time. I can't hear him but I know he can hear me.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Believe in God, not religious anymore. Something along the lines of informal Deism. Maybe. I try to avoid defining myself.
@ all the athiests: why do you all assume that god cannot exist, but always in a religious sense? Why couldn't the almighty just create life, the universe, and everything, and just observe? Why does he have to exist and be involved? Existence as a deity does not necessitate involvement. Why can't we just be a large ant farm?
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
It's always amazing to me, wild, that so many people assume that any god out there should be some sort of personal guide who has a plan in mind for each and every individual! When that doesn't happen, or everything falls apart, that really shakes foundations.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
DD, that's really is so dumb, because all the great mystics and gurus, if you had ever bothered to read them, say that you don't find God 'out there', you find God 'in here'...
(Just thought I'd crank you up a notch, seeing as you seem to be at a loss for anything better to do )
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Eastern Orthodox (that's Christian, not Jewish;) I am guessing there are not many Orthodox on this board, although I could be wrong.
Of course God exists. How else could something as heavenly as Irish music exist? Of course, the devil must exist as well. How else could something as infernal to play as the uilleann pipes exist? (I am piper, I can make digs at pipers) Frankly, I think it'd be hard to be a piper and NOT be somewhat religious...or at least invoke the name of God extensively when the !@#$%^& pipes refuse to cooperate...sorry about that, God!
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Bit of a sign of the times (sorry that's not meant to be symbolic or anything), that it has to be said that Eastern Orthodox is Christian! ai, yai yai...!!
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yes. I'm an extremely hardcore theist. But am I a muslim or a christian? I don't even know any more. Rumi makes me confused. "The lamps are different but the light is the same".
But on reflection - this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with Irish music. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it should be deleted. Anyone else agree ?
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Ha, I love all those mild almost blasphemous expletives. Like heaven forbid, flipin' heck, hell's teeth, etc. They are so flexible, you can twist them to mean anything, and you can even use them in front of your kids.
I particularly like them as exclamations. Exclamations of exasperation, exclamations of annoyance and, in splendid irony, exclamations of disbelief, etc.
I had an old uncle whose favourite was, "christ on a bike." Brilliant
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
That would be a wright-wing wouldn't it geoff?
Some crypto-blasphemes I used to hear in Australia as a kid:
gorblimey teddy!
cripes!
strike me catholic!
cheese'n'rice!
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Having waded laboriously through 70+ posts, I just want to put everyone in the picture. There is no god, there is no heaven or hell, religion is an oppression dreamed up by the ruling classes and practiced by those who are foolish and weak willed. Maybe I could quote Dick Gaughan and say "There's no gods and precious few heroes" well, apart from Thomas Muir of Hunters Hill or James Connolly.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I think a bit of modified Douglas Adams explains the universe.
" I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "The uilleann pipes are a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic."
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The only slightly positive thing that I'll say about organised religion is that if it makes you happy, fair play to ya, I wish you well, whoever your god is. As for Marx, read the theory and make your own mind up. I believe in an equal society with civil and human rights at its core, basics denied to the vast majority of the working class irrespective of their creed.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Fortunately for all of us, there is an early quotation that says "God is not mocked."
So we're all right then, 'cause He/She is bigger than all that.
UNfortunately, not every religious bigot has got the point of this, hence their trying to complain of heresy/blasphemy/whatever from anyone they disagree with.
Personally, I reckon that you're entitled to believe what you like, but not to try to impose it on anyone else. Equally personally, I spend an hour each Sunday sitting in silence with people of a like mind. But it's not a way that works for everyone.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Strayaway, old chap, I think it was Brian McNeill who wrote that song. But doesn't Dick Gaughan spit it out so well at the very end of the song: "There are NO GODS...!" It's the greatest and shortest and most complete assertion of atheism I've ever heard!
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I love that dave allen one where he's being Ian Paisley in the pulpit shouting about hell and doom fire and gnashing of teeth etc. (You have to think of it iN that harsh ulster accent) and a little old lady in the front pew puts her hand up and say's meekly, "but reverand, I have no teeth." And Paisley screems back at her, "TEETH WILL BE PROVIDED."
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yes I am religious, but don't choose to discuss it here. In case you haven't noticed, the Yellow Board is not really a fitting place to discuss such a topic. Not to say I want this thread deleted, instead let it stand as evidence of the futility of such pursuits in this setting.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Of course this thread is relevant, and should stand. There are any number of tunes with a religious reference in the name ... starting with "Father Kelly's".
I shouldn't be surprised if there are some members here who have been ordained or who belong to a religious order.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I have always being of the opinion that Irish Traditional Music, just like Gaelic Football and Hurling, was part of the Catholic Church. The only church I've ever heard it played in was a Catholic one. Just look at the annual Fleadh Church Service which has become part and parcel of the Annual Fleadh Ceol. None of your multi denominational rubbish for them. Wither you like it or not, it's a good old Catholic Mass, and packed to the rafters as well. As for me.........yes.... I'm a catholic (with a small c) who believes in the hereafter. At least I'm at the stage of my life where even when I walk into a shop nowadays....I say to myself "What am I hereafter".
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I believe there is this magic tune floating about in space. If we could only track it down and play it on our instruments all problems of the world would be solved.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Make sure you have your instrument burried with you.
There are sessions in heaven every friday evening 7 till late I understand.
I was at a seance and it vame through on the ouija board.
A well known musician by all accounts was asked by St Peter when he arrived
at the golden gates "do you have your instrument?"
"What?" said the nmusician "sessions in heaven?"
"Yes Said St Peter "every friday"
"Who is in charge?" said the musician
"God" said Peter "He plays the Fiddle & the Flute".
"Fiddle & Flute?" said the musician.
"Yes" Peter replied "Trouble is he thinks he's Frankie Gavin"
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Holy mackerel ! I was wrong, a few brave souls waded in. Wolfbird, you'd definitely enjoy The Dominant Animal by Paul R. Ehrlich, if you haven't read it already.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Reminds me of this great anecdote about Padraig O'Keeffe -- apparently true. Since he was frequently to be found in his favourite pub it seems the local parish priest came by to remonstrate him for not showing up in Church [Padraig had no time for religion apparently]. So Padraig says to him, "Well father, you see, it's like this. Five minutes in Church is like an hour. But an hour playing music in this pub with a drink in front of me is like five minutes."
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The off-topic topics here are half the crack.
I don’t subscribe to any religious beliefs, but my life has been informed and enriched by reading and discussing the foundational texts of several religions – particularly Buddhism and Christianity. There’s a lot of good psychology there, as well as material to ponder from an ethical point of view.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Everyone here knows I am a Church musician in my non ITM music existance. A real netherworld for musicians.
I thought about this question becasue I go to church so much, and can truly say I zone out most sermons and focus on cues rather than the rituals and their deep meaning.
I also know more religious than most folks and have a very cynical attitude towards the worst and a sympathetic attitude to the very few good ones who still fight the fight.
My response is that I never confuse the message with the messenger.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
If there was a God the New York Yankees, Manchester United and Tyrone Gaelic footballers would never win a match, and Antrim would win 4 All Ireland hurling titles and 3 football every decade.
Also I would be a 20 year old flute teacher living in Clare, ready to offer Dyna a place to live (see other thread)
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm not sure I like the idea of the Planetary Smile. The thought of the Earth whizzing through space looking like a cross between a Halloween pumpkin and Richard Branson is not to be borne.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Bless you, gw. But be patient. There's plenty of time for the usual brawl to arrive. I mean, if we can't fight over religion, what CAN we fight over ? Perhaps someone should start a new thread, 'Are you guys here at session.org political at all ?'
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
We can fight over whether sessions are performances and whether or not we should learn tunes from sheet music. Those are problems causing more suffering. Clearly.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
LOL, no Silver Spear, those are concrete issues we can do something about. Whether a god exists or not, we can't change that, nor does the answer (either way) affect how many tunes and pints we can cram in at our weekly sessions.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Totally agree, Steve Shaw, THE BEST. Maybe I will take a trip to Achill, DD, could be just the thing I need, btw I've been listening to Xavier Rudd recently, good stuff. Thats it from me on this subject for tonight, I'm off to work, tired, bedraggled and full of hope that I might make it through til morning, it's not easy being me.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Well, I don't think we in ROI/UK are going to be fighting over water in the immediate future. Even the South-East isn't short.
As an incorrigible gremlin in the manifold of being, however, I have in years past smirked at the thought of the metrosexuals fighting to wash their curls in the last drops of crunchy water from some London standpipe even as salmon frolic up burgeoning rivers in the North.
Is it true that in Ireland perambulating statues of the Virgin Mary are often to be met? How far do they get? Do they say hello? It would be intriguing to meet one and listen to its / her life history, even if it included the obligatory list of ailments.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
For those keeping score at home, 148 posts about religion and not one red-faced argument. Your attempt at a wind-up FAILED Guitar101 - suck on that. Maybe you should start another anti-immigrant thread eh?
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Naah, I'm not a Freemason, DD....I'm a megalithomaniac....I've been studying the Standing Stones and Stone Circles for several decades, and I have to say, although its enjoyable, I still don't have a clue...
Hey, this is really cool. People who talk by whistling.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Hey wolf, with the stones, I started years ago with Brugh na Boinne and reading George Russell (AE). He spent his entire life on all that, and puts a pretty good handle on it, I thought.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I don't know about you guys, but I just could never be mates with someone who believed in all that mumbo jumbo holy spooks and life after death (what a stupid contradiction) nonsense.
Feel free to believe in whatever you want, I'll happily sit and play some tunes with you. But to really enjoy playing tunes with people, to really nail down that tightness that comes from many years of playing with the same people, they have to be your mates. You have to share a common sense of reality. You have to find Fr Ted more than just funny when he tells Fr Dougal that Santa doesn't exist, and to put him on the list by his bed of other things that don't exist ... which includes the abominal snowman, the loch ness monster, fairies, etc. And right at the bottom, all gods except the catholic one.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
There's several ways to reach an atheist conclusion about life on earth and in the universe, but only one way to become religious - childhood indoctrination.
I find the old Irish stories amazing, the Dagda..."sometimes depicted as oafish and crude, even comical, wearing a short, rough tunic that barely covers his rump, dragging his great penis on the ground."
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Christianity, Judaism, Paganism etc etc are things that we created to divide or define ourselves. It's part of the human condition. More humans in the world, worse the condition becomes. I watched "I Love Huckabees" recently and since then have been looking for a space hopper so that I can smash myself in the face with it instead of answering questions about religion. I was an alterboy when I was little and our catholic priest must have been an imposter cos I had to play with meself all the time!
Still looking for a space-hopper.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
We've inherited a vast mishmash of ideas from the past, from all over the world, a kind of soup of what previous generations have thought about. But just because it appears confusing and often non-sensical to us, doesn't mean it's all worthless.
It's impossible to have a conversation with someone about God, until you establish what exactly is being discussed, and what the other person means when they use that particular word.
If you trace the etymology of the word back, deity, deus, Zeus, etc, back to indo-european and sanscrit, you get something like deva or diva, which means, literally, something like 'shining one', which might be sun, or moon, or star, or ?
We all depend upon the sun and the moon for our daily life. Without them, we wouldn't exist at all.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Llig - I'm sorry to hear you say that. I hang with a group of musicians who represent everything from Richard Dawkins atheists to Evangelical Christians and we have wonderful, engaging, thoughtful, civil discussions all the time. We also have great tunes together every week. It can be done.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yeah, religion doesn't have much to do with whether or not someone is a total eejit or an a-hole.
I've met plenty of nice folks of all denominations, and the few chuckleheads I've come across over the years have also had wide-ranging religious beliefs.
This is why I enjoy the church of common sense and acting like a decent human being. Blessed be the nice folks, for they shall truly inherit having a lovely time.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Often one can't afford to be so picky about whom one engages in a discussion. Lots of people possess worthwhile insights, while at the same time holding what you and others might call irrational beliefs.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Obviously, Michael, if you hold hard, immovable (dare I say "fundamentalist"?) views on any matter, as you seem to, then of course you'd find it impossible to converse with anyone who holds a different opinion. However, if you are willing to open your mind a little, and listen to someone, not so you can rubbish their ideas later, but to try to understand actually what it is they are talking about (even if, in the end, you come to the conclusion that you disagree with them), then you will find that it makes for extremely enjoyable and interesting conversation.
Or, on the other hand, you could just rubbish people's beliefs.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Definition of a fanatic:
'Someone who can't change their mind, and won't change the subject'
(W. Churchill)
Yes, JoeCSS, like Socrates, who was obviously one of the greatest minds of all time, yet totally humble, making out that he himself knew nothing, but asking everybody he met what they thought and why they thought it, out of genuine curiosity...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
There are many many things in this world I do not understand and have no explanation for. And why most of the world's population believes in fairy stories is one of them. I engage with such people all the time, how could you not, they are everywhere. Mostly, of course, the subject doesn't come up, but when it does I am fascinated to listen.
A couple of years ago I stayed up all night discussing it with my dad. He's racially a catholic (unlike my mum who is a convert). After 8 hours he concluded that, on balance, there probably was no such thing as god and the afterlife. But he would continue to go to church out of habit.
There's no moral behind the story, just observation.
However, and I know that there is a world of difference between religion and organised religion, but it has to be said that the catholic church is nasty organisation. There are many many examples, from grass roots right up to Ratzinger. Spreading, via pseudo science, the "fact" that the membrane of a condom is not a barrier the HIV virus is the same as mass murder in my book.
When I was a kid at the local RC Primary School there was a 15th century listed building in the school grounds. One year it got squatted by a bunch of art students. The local Cannon waited until the students went out to college and without warning, bulldozed the building, along with all the students' property and artworks.
I could be said that it seems I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about all this, and it's certain that I once did. It took me a while to over it and accept that religion is one of life's mysteries, something I will probably never understand. So believe in what you like, I don't mind. Just so long as you stand up for injustice, and never ever ever make the fundamental mistake of thinking that god is on your side.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Well said Michael. When I felt a need to choose a religion, maybe in my mid/late teens, I read as much as I could about all of them, in the hope I could fall in love with one...but they all have aspects that I find unacceptable...that was until I found zen buddhism, which IMO, is a kind of anti-religion religion. It's a methodology for getting free from the social indoctrination, the conditioning, the brain washing, a way of waking up.
But that's my personal thing. I don't try to convert anybody, and I try to respect other people's beliefs, even if I think they're completely dotty, so long as they're not obviously harming other people.
I know a very old lady who is always happy and giggling in a rather inane way, and turns out she's really looking forward to death, because she's so excited she'll be meeting Jesus...now, to my mind, to tell her that her belief is rubbish would be downright cruel and immoral.
That's my problem with Dawkins. He loves logic, and I bet he'd start explaining to her that her beliefs are irrational and absurd, because there is no God, the Universe is just random and meaningless, bla, bla...
I'm on Dawkins side re Darwin. Just that i can see there's great value, for ordinary folks, in poetic wisdom, just as much as in hard literal rationalism.
It's like the distinction between head-knowledge and heart-knowledge. IMHO, we need both, and there's good and bad aspects to both.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
It's a difficult situation about the happy old lady who's looking forward to meeting Jesus. Is it cruel and immoral to tell the truth? Is it patronising to pat her on the head and say, what ever makes her happy? The traditionally religious have us believe that their truth is a sacrosanct monopoly, while the progressively religious like to think that there can can be parallel and conflicting truths. Buddhists and Methodists etc. can all be right. And the scientist believes in nothing, only theories that have yet to be proved wrong.
Stephen Dedalus stuck to his truth at his mother's death bed and beat himself up about it with his visions of snot-green bile. Was he right?
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
<<Is it cruel and immoral to tell the truth?>>
and what might that be ? are you so sure its not just your opinion? would you bet your life on it? got any proof? of course not.
Taking a position for, or against, both are an act of faith, a belief system. An open mind accepts the possibility that god exists, and that she doesnt. Im not talking about a christian god specifically, or a muslim god or any of the human constructs know as religion. simply the existance of a universal mind. the conscious universe. ( ps stephen Dedalus? was he the authour of the' staggering work of genius , or somethingr? '
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm often confronted by the religious with the notion that atheism is just another belief system. I'm confused as to why they never get it that it is not a belief system, it is a lack of belief. It's pretty straight forward.
I suppose it's one of the reasons that religion exists in the first place, it seems that human beings need to believe in something/anything, and not nothing.
As for betting my life on it? What a curious challenge: from someone who believes that when they die they don't die, to someone who accepts the finality of death.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Do you or do you not believe there is no god? how can it be anything else apart from a belief system? there is no proof either way.
I certainly didnt say i believe in life after death, where did you get that from? your imagination?
I make no claim either way, i simply dont know, maybe there is, maybe there isnt.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
You choose not to answer my question; do you believe there is no god? of course its a belief system, if its notr, what is it?
As far as the invisible cardigan argument goes, yes you are quite correct , there is no proof either way.
You choose to rubbish others belief system, without realising you hold a similarily unproveable belief system. something about removing a mote from anothers eye comes to mind.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
It's the whole attitude and language off the thing that is stacked against.
The theist is the norm. And if you don't subscribe you are an "a" theist, an atheist. The very definition is a denial. I don't deny god,
If you don't believe in invisible cardigans, you don't have to justify it, to prove it.
I don't rubbish belief systems, I just don't believe. I have no belief system. I'm trying to answer the question in as direct a manner as possible. There are many belief systems. I don't have one.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Ionannas, so you are an agnostic ?
Michael, of course it can be cruel and immoral to tell the truth...it's a matter of sensitivity and balance. I'm slightly surprised that you'd doubt that. I mean, if you love someone deeply, you care about their feelings, so why would you bash them over the head with some abstract logical notion that isn't going to benefit them in any way ?
I suppose, if I am to insist on kindness to doddery old ladies, I should be consistent, and be kind to you, by not demolishing your 'non-belief' ?
But you're a robust fellow, so you'll probably survive a critique, even with a few bruises...
Your professed belief in nothing, is every bit as much a belief system as Methodism or Buddhism. It involves all the same logical structures, e.g. rejection of opposing claims, reference to supporting evidence, assertions such as what happens after death, and so forth.
Look, a 'belief system' is what a person believes. It's the model of reality that they carry around in their brains. Just becasue someone says 'I don't believe in invisible cardigans', doesn't follow they have no belief system. That's just one of the ideas from which their belief system is constituted.
It's a philosophical position. You can't opt out. Anybody who expresses a view on existential matters is automatically indicating the belief system that they favour.
BTW, I think you are mistaken re science "believes in nothing, only theories that have yet to be proved wrong."
I've taken a hammering over that issue on a science blog. Modern science doesn't use the term 'proof'. It's a concept in mathematics and philosophy. Modern science deals in uncertainty, and degrees of probability, using stuff like Bayesian statistics, and often presented as a percentage.
The notion that you can prove that the old lady will not meet Jesus after death, is impossible to resolve. Folks much smarter than either of us have been trying to prove/disprove the existence of God or the existence of an Afterlife, for centuries, using logic, and so far without any convincing success.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Atheism may be the lack of a belief "system", but you can't get away from the fact that it is still a belief. You believe that God does not exist. You believe it to be true, and it may be. But who are you to say that it definitely is the truth?
This old lady who is looking forward to meeting Jesus -- you question, Michael, whether it would be cruel to tell her "the truth": that there is nothing after death. I think it would be cruel, though I think "nasty" would be a better way of putting it, as you're unlikely to actually change her beliefs now. I think it would be nasty in EXACTLY the same way that it would be nasty to tell a nice old atheist who is about to die that he will burn in Hell for eternity because of his sins.
"The scientist believes in nothing, only theories that have yet to be proved wrong."
The TRUE scientist knows that it is a bad move to ever say that something is true or untrue: there are only ever working models, waiting to be refined or replaced. But he is completely free to make up his own mind with regards to religion. Science is silent on the subject of God.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
But wolfbird, there is nothing to be disproved. Any idea that is put forward without any evidence (just based on "faith") can be ignored without bothering to look for evidence that disproves it.
Say that my next door neighbor believes a 10 foot tall invisible, benevolent hamster lives in his back yard. But no one has ever seen this hamster, nor any tracks, scat, nibbled greenery, or other sign of its existence. My neighbor is free to believe what he wants, whatever gets him through the night. But I would have no cause at all to believe in such a critter--there is no shred of any sign that it exists. Without any evidence of existence, there's ***no need*** to prove non-existence.
The tabloids are full of space aliens, mutant babies, and torrid love affairs or break ups that don't exist. Imagine if society spent all of its time and energy working to disprove every flippantly invented, fabricated claim. What a colossal waste of time.
I'm not a "non-believer." I believe in the attraction of masses that holds us to this planet. I believe in the pulmonary exchange of gases. I believe in 12 year Red Breast whiskey and home made applie pie. I believe that the atoms in my body will continue bumping into other atoms long after I quit breathing, as they did before I was born, and that's afterlife enough.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Science is silent on the subject of god."
That's because there's nothing to say. "God" is a theory that cannot be tested, cannot be proven true or false. So there's no way (or need) to apply the scientific method to it. Any more than to apply science to my neighbor's invisible hamster.
Lots of people apparently believe that this wonderous planet and life itself could not have just happened without some intelligent creator. If that's so, then what created the creator? Surely such an intelligent, omnipotent creator could not "just happen"?
And if such a creator could "just happen," then why couldn't something like our planet and life "just happen" as well?
Point being, the notion of a creator doesn't resolve that ultimate question of how all the stuff in the universe (including the creator) came to be. So it doesn't really help explain much, eh? It's unecessary and more of a red herring than a promising lead.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
That "nothing is knowable" (including "nothing") is a (if not the) classic existential dilemma. Humans have spent thousands of years trying to prove or disprove the "truth" in this statement. Religions, philosophical schools of thought and scientific "certainties" (aka paradigms) have developed in response to the nothing is knowable dilemma and ALL have changed radically over the millenia except religion... Why is that?
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Will -
The fact that Humans believe in God - isolated communities coming up with pretty much exactly the same notion of a non-physical, omnipotent, omniscient Creator - is evidence enough for me. I think (and this is all my own opinion now, I do not hold it to be "the truth") that Mankind instinctively believes in God in the same way that a baby instinctively holds onto its mother. He doesn't need to be told that breast milk is good for him, and that he should try some, and where to find it.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The belief of a Creator is not that He "just happened". He did not come into existence, existence came into Him. The question of how He got there is invalid, because without Him, there is no "there".
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Heh, actually most human babies *do* need to be shown where to suckle.
Joe, at one time, most human societies also believed that the Earth was flat and the sun orbited us, not the other way around. Despite ample evidence to the contrary (e.g., in the first case, the rounded shadow of the Earth against the moon).
GW, are you suggesting that religious dogma hasn't changed over time? And that that's proof that it's "right"? Oh dear.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Joe, I'm guessing we'll just have to leave each other to our opinions. For me, "He did not come into existence, existence came into Him" defies any attempts I can muster to make sense of it.
Suffice to say we differ in our understanding. No problems.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Well, if you want my personal view, Will CPT, I'd say you're setting up a bunch of strawmen.
I must stress, this is my own personal view. Emphatically, I'm not trying to change anybody else's mind.
In the development of my thinking about these hard problems, I concluded that all we have are stories that we tell ourselves.
We choose this or that story as our favourite, for a number of reasons, like, it seems plausible, or that's what parents or respected figures believe, or whatever.
But they are *all* just stories. Nobody can explain the most profound mysteries, like "Why does anything exist ?"
I followed the buddhist path. Some people will say there is no God, in buddhism. But that's not quite correct. The Buddha himself said he was not offering an opinion on that question. His teaching was only concerned with the matter of human suffering.
(What he did say is that there is an 'Unconditioned'. Precisely what that means would require many pages to discuss.)
My position is that I do believe in God. The only problem is that my definition of God is rather different from most other people's idea of God.
My definition is that God is 'all you will ever know and all you will ever experience'. It is very big, totally inclusive, nothing excluded, so it's too big for any word or concept which we have in our language.
To get away from ridiculous ideas of a big bearded Daddy in the sky who beats you if you're bad and sends you to the devil for punishment (which is all rather juvenile and silly, isn't it ?) I'd prefer to call my personal God, Tao.
But, unfortunately, as soon as any word is used, the intitial concept is reduced, limited, shrunk to fit a formula that is convenient. So, it's best not to call 'it' anything. But then, if there's no name, how can we discuss it at all ?
And there you have a clue, why zen buddhists speak in riddles.
Any decent zen master will not get entangled in all the abdurdity that arise in analytical theological discourse. It's much better to put your shoes on with care, say something kind to your neighbour, remember to put the refuse out for collection.
But, if anybody wants to experience God, then, well, it's not that difficult. Much easier than winning a gold at the Olympics. Any decent zen master can teach how it is done.
Problem is, not many people really want to know. They prefer argument and confusion and all kinds of other stuff...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
+isolated communities coming up with pretty much exactly the same notion of a non-physical, omnipotent, omniscient Creator+
Seems to me that the opposite is true - genuinely isolated communities came up with wildly varying supernatural beliefs, when you consider how much else they had in common.
The big three of the Western and near-Eastern world - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - weren't isolated from each other at all.
Though I'm pretty sure science does have something to say on God - after all a leading scientist just published a best-seller called The God Delusion, and the persistence of belief in the supernatural may well be a topic of interest to socio-biologists and neuroscientists if it isn't already.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yep, agnostic. Raised by an Atheist. Who, in the last weeks of his life, told us of going down a long tunnel to meet the light, feeling the love and warmth of his welcome, figure that one out!
The universe is far greater than the understanding of man can possibly comprehend.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I believe fidkid’s cardigan analogy was meant to allude to a sense of proportion that usually gets ignored in this eternal argument. Belief in an extraordinary and unproveable claim is not intellectually or philosophically equal in merit to a dismissal of that claim.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
gw, thanks for the clarification.
Ionannas, the light and warmth phenomena are well documented in many cases of near death. I've experienced them myself, coming to in the ER while a nurse was trying to intubate me. (I'm allergic to bees--full anaphalaxis--and have been resuscitated several times.)
My own experience is that the "light" comes on when the brain is deprived of oxygen, perhaps the brain's attempt to stimulate the optic nerve and "wake up" and resolve the oxygen intake problem. I didn't find anything spiritual in it, but perhaps I was distracted by the tube being shoved down my throat....
And a spreading warmth is what happens in the late stages of shock, as your circulatory system clamps down the extemeties and concentrates blood to the vital organs. Again, my own experiences--one with hypothermia and one with significant blood loss--is that you feel warm even as your body is chilling down.
Re: "The universe is far greater than the understanding of man can possibly comprehend." Well, all the more reason to not buy in to ancient myths perpetrated by people who thought diseases were caused by curses or evil spirits and who relied on magic for everything from medicine to meteorology.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
FTR, early on in this thread I stated flat out that I'm an atheist. I also posted a link to a Richard Dawkins lecture at the TED conference that I think pretty much sums up why I have no hesitation in stating such.
IMHO, religious dogma has changed very little over the millenia (unlike science and philosophy) because the perpetrators of the dogma realize it as the "ultimate" form of control over masses of people who have an irrational fear of the unknowableness of being and death. Especially death...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Bren, re Dawkins and Dennett, and other scientists who attack religious belief....
I love biology and Darwin's understanding of life on Earth, and so on. I'm not knocking science. But I hate those two's attempts to rubbish religion.
As Joe CSS pointed out, all peoples have always had some sort of religious belief. It's an essential cultural component.
Dawkins is great on evolution and useless on religion. He only seems to understand one tiny sub-section of religion, a peculiar version of Christianity that resides in certain evangelical fundamentalists, mostly in the USA. He hates them, and they hate him.
Dawkins and Dennett operate by logic. They think that logic is the only meaningful knowledge. I find that laughable, and in any case, their position is cracked wide open by Derrida's critique of logocentrism.
Science is fine. But it cannot explain why we find things beautiful, it cannot even explain why we laugh. Science can only deal with stuff that can be measured, and to suggest that is all that exists or is important is absurd, IMO.
I mean, people here ought to understand, if anyone can, that the fun of playing music is neither logical or scientific. You can't explain it rationally, or pin it down in a formula. That's why I don't agree with Dawkins. There is 'poetic' knowledge which is just as true, in it's own way, as scientific truths.
For example, here's a story. It tells us something about the human condition. It's completely unscientific. But does that mean it's worthless, or meaningless ? Of course not...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
<<Belief in an extraordinary and unproveable claim>> And that is?; that there is no god.?
You see? For an atheist the existance of god is an extraordinary claim . And for believers the non-existance of god is an extraordinary and unprovable claim.
It all depends which 'side of the fence you sit' as to what you consider to be extraordinary.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Wolfbird, what if "poetic knowldge" turns out to just be biochemical reactions? Like, we fall "in love" with people who smell right, y'know, that theory that our brains detect subtle differences in people and are attracted to those with different immune systems from our own, the better to enhance our offspring's health and chances for survival.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"My own experience is that the "light" comes on when the brain is deprived of oxygen, perhaps the brain's attempt to stimulate the optic nerve and "wake up" and resolve the oxygen intake problem. I didn't find anything spiritual in it,"
BUT, Will CPT, all that you're saying here, is that's the story you told yourself. It's based upon what other folks have told you about biology and medicine. You're saying that a simple mechanistic process is sufficient and satisfies you.
What the heck do you think 'spiritual' means ? I mean, what sort of experience would you have to have that'd lead you to say 'I had a spiritual experience' ?
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Will CPT, ALL knowledge, whether scientific or poetic (or Classical versus Romantic, in Robert Pirsig's terminology) is just biochemistry, because, it's just electro-chemical activity in neurons.
But you're reducing the human condition to that of a computer (which many scientists and doctors are happy to do) which is just appalling, in my view. You rob humanity of all the qualities that make humans of value.
To try an analogy. All computer info is just electronic pulses, digital code. But what you see on the screen can be utter garbage, like a popup advertising online gambling, or you could be reading a pdf of Tolstoy. Quality makes a difference.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
wolfbird, Dawkins' "logical" method is not the point. That he's willing to speak out about atheism is. I'm an athiest. I do not believe in a deity or deities. I'm not saying I don't have an appreciation for certain aspects of Taoism or Zen Buddhism or even certain stories in the Old and New Testaments. I fully appreciate the "poetry." But I can experience the wonder and mystery of life without the dogmatic "unarguable" aspects of organized religion and without needing to call everything my brain can't explain "God." Some need the comfort of a "God," I don't so I appreciate the Dawkins' of the world giving voice to a subject that has heretofore been rather unpopular--to say the least.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I wonder how many different gods we’re talking about here. The god of a particular religion or cult has a back story, a cast of characters and a set of notions that come along with the package, at least to the fundamentalist. Each of these god-packages constitutes an extraordinary claim because the profusion of god-packages renders each essentially arbitrary.
“There’s this book and it’s very old, see? and it tells how the world was created and how we can live forever, yeah, that’s the ticket!...”
Lots of people (most?) who talk about god are talking about this kind of god-package. Why should I “believe” any one of them when I can go around the corner and find yet another “old book” with a different god-package?
Other people talk about God just to have a language for discussing the limits of human comprehension or to describe their experiences in self-awareness (and self-non-awareness). Arguments about the existence of this kind of god ultimately wind up begging the question.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I only used Dawkins' book as an example of scientists being interested in the God Question.
I haven't read it. Polemic tires me (if that is what it is - I won't know until I read it I suppose). I've read many of his books on genetics and evolution and I thought they were marvellous expositions and he didn't come across as a ranter.
I'm an atheist because I don't feel there's any God. Before I even begin to approach it logically. But I understand religion because I was a devout Catholic as a youngster. I don't despise religion. Religion is culture and has shaped us even if we don't know it, because it has shaped our culture. The bad things done by in the name of religion are the result of human nature. That is just the way we are - which Dawkins et al explain very well.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
--“’GW, are you suggesting that religious dogma hasn't changed over time? And that that's proof that it's "right"?’
--No. Just the opposite.”
"Huh? What would the opposite be?"
Good question. I should have just said "No" and left it at that.
That said... Religious dogma, for the most part, hasn't changed over millennia unlike science and philosophy which have gone through radical paradigm shifts. The reason for this is because the organizers of organized religion know that the dogma is an effective means of control over people who have an irrational fear of the unknown. To me, this is a kind of mind control and is unethical at best (I'm being nice here). Top billing goes to ANY form of religious fundamentalism...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
gw, I think you're speaking from a USA perspective. Atheism has a long history in the UK, long before Dawkins.
I tend to share your view on organised institutionalised religion. It's all to easy for people whose real motive is power/wealth/political manipulation, to hijack religion for their own ends. In fact, I believe that's what's brought religion into disrepute, all down the ages.
See, for example, St Paul co-opting Jesus, and the Emperor Constantine co-opting St Pau, and then the various Popes and their many disreputable acts. Including the Spanish Inquisition, (which, as we are all aware, nobody expects).
I'd call UK a post-religious soceity, whilst USA is obviously not.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
What is rather nice, is that despite you wide range of views expressed - everyone seems to have their own personal take that's different - something else is operating. Is it tolerance and consideration for others ? That's got to be splendid, eh ?
To have strong views and not get angry or upset because some other idiot has different views... sigh ...so many millions have died because of that.
I don't know if there are Earth Mother Goddess or Gaia worshipping pagans here, but the planet seems to be doing something very peculiar....perhaps it's weary of our foolishness and has decided to shake us off ?
What exactly happens when there's a magnetic reversal ? I'm not sure. I'll have to google later, when I've had my supper...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Wolfbird, understanding biochemistry doesn't take the wonder out of life. Wonder and poetry and "quality" don't have to be reduced just because we've started to get some inkling of the neural interactions at the root of experience. And our brains are far too complex and random and free-associating to stoop to the mere level of a computer.
So take a breath and reconsider the words you seem to want to put into my mouth....
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth, Will CPT. Sorry if it cam across that way.
My point is, that your way of explaining your experience, in terms of biochemistry, etc. is like explaining how computer hardware operates.
I'm not saying it's not wonderful, or interesting in it's own right. But, to extend the analogy, the quality of the software is what really matters.
You're saying you're just a machine, even if a marvellous machine.
I think that's wrong, a mistake. A human being is something more than a soft machine.
You're free to disagree. I'm not trying to change your view.
And re gw's post, about being grateful for Dawkins - I just read that about a fifth of Americans are 'born again'. And I suppose there's a lot more who're bible bashers of one kind or another. Under those circumstances, and listening to Palin, I'd probably be very grateful for Dawkins too. Just that in UK, atheism is no big deal. Politicians rarely mention religion. I don't think it wins any votes.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The only one here who's mentioned the human-machine analogy is wolfbird. I would never say such a thing. Though he keeps insisting I'm saying it. (A bit too reminiscent of the current homecoming king competition we have going on stateside at the moment.)
I think any organism is wonderous, amazing, rife with mysteries and surprises. In contrast, even the most complex machines are utterly predictable and much easier to reduce to their basic components.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Okay, I'll try again, Will CPT.
You said "My own experience is that the "light" comes on when the brain is deprived of oxygen, perhaps the brain's attempt to stimulate the optic nerve and "wake up" and resolve the oxygen intake problem. I didn't find anything spiritual in it,"
That's accurate, isn't it ?
My comment is that your analysis is a description of mechanism. How you can say it's not mechanistic, baffles me. I didn't write those words, you did.
It's as if you were describing the innards of a motor car or a computer. You say that there's some sort of feedback loop, whereby a sensor detects oxygen shortage, so sends a signal back to the brain which produces false light in the optic nerve...whatever.
For all I know, perhaps that's correct. Perhaps that does happen. But so what ? Are you just a complicated machine ? I mean, if you conceive of yourself in the kind of terminology you used here, then it's not surprising that you didn't find any spiritual aspect, because you're looking in the wrong place.
I tried to explain that with my hardware/software analogy, but I was tired and admitedly didn't do a good job.
Spirituality is to do with consciousness. It's not the machinery, it's not the hardware, it's not the biochemistry, it's something else. It's experiences that consciousness has. Trying to explain it away by reductionist appeals to mechanisms, is hand-waving, and misses the point.
Nevermind. I've no intention here to change anybody's minds. As far as I'm concerned anybody can think whatever they want. I was merely trying to explain why I reached my own personal position with regard to religion and spiritual matters.
With a few minor disagreements, my view is mostly identical to that of Alan Wallace, who illuminates the area in a more sophisticated manner than I can.
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
In a few days time the Large Hadron Collider will be switched on at CERN in Geneva. Now if the LHC goes pear-shaped in a big way no-one on this planet will have to worry about anything ever again.
And what would be the last tune you'd like to play?
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Yer right, no one's going to change anyone's mind here."
Aye! And think of all the time missed practicing because of the hours spent yammering about being and nothingness!
Seems to me the thread is exhausted. guitar101 lost his windup attempt (benhall.1 needs to do some research), and we're all still mustard board mates...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Will CPT, I think you do not understand what 'mechanistic' thinking is, but no matter, everyone has to find their own route.
People try to make sense of themselves and their experiences in terms of stuff they already understand, or believe they understand.
When I was a little kid, interested in the brain, I read the most advanced texts available at the time, which proudly proclaimed that the brain was just like a telephone exchange (being the coolest snazziest new techno toy of the time).
Every year since, folks have come up with a new explanation.
The daftest thing I've seen recently, obviously proposed by a geek who spent too much time with a playstation, is that the Universe is actually a computer simulation, and we are all avatars being played by something or someone.
It's just one more story, although a very silly one, IMO, to explain what we don't understand.
Yes, I think religion is sorted for this week. Shall we move on to politics, and see if we can provoke a punch up ?
This guy believes that politics is the problem, not the solution. I propose that politics and politicians henceforth and forthwith be abolished. Any takers ?
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Will CPT, I think you do not understand what 'mechanistic' thinking is, but no matter, everyone has to find their own route."
D'oh! Yer absatootly right, yer honor. I dunno whas I'm talking about. Turrible eejit I am. Thanks for pointin' that out--wouldda missed my own stoopidity....
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Let that be a to you lesson, m'lad, I'm letting you off lightly this time, six months on the chain gang, bread and water only. Guards ! take him down...And no lilting !
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
No offence intended to anyone, but, really, whatever you believe or don't believe, the biosphere is collapsing all around us, whichever measure you look at...
Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm just curious.... Please don't take any offense or anything.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by guitar101
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
i'm a progressive Luddite, if that counts
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm sure! Like politics though, we doesn't usually get into it too much, mainly because violence and foul language usually accompanies most discussions of religion and politics. We usually try to stay on topic, you know, violins and fowl language.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"...violins and fowl language..."
So, about my bowing on Jenny's Chickens...
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Another thing...irish music is basically the same thing as bluegrass, right?
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by timmy!
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm a catholic atheist.
Kind of the opposite of those people who say they believe in god but not religion.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by Bren
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
But while it's good to discuss such things in real life, discussion boards can easily go haywire !
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by Bren
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Find a nice old seventies GUILD!!!!!Really nice guitars...
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
thank god .....no well not during Ramadan
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Religion is a fine thing, when taken in moderation."
From the film Trading Places with Dan Akroyd and Eddie Murphy.
Myself, I'm in the pew almost every Sunday. What can I say, I enjoy it.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"...irish music is basically the same thing as bluegrass, right?"
May your deity give you a smiteful cramp.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by kothz
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Good thing god does not exist
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by timmy!
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Agnostic.
Those that believe in (a, the) god(s) and those that believe no such god(s) exist are all claiming to know with certainty the ultimate nature of the universe. They're all fools, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm like Socrates: I at least know that I do not know.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Reformed Druid here.
Druids worship trees, we choose to worship bushes.
(Those somewhat smaller tree-like plants, not those Republican White House dudes.)
Peace.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by Piece
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Tho many have tried, nobody has ever explained to me what religion is.I go to funerals in assorted religious buildings and mumble along with the various prayers and stuff. I love the singalong bits, esp Abide with Me
I have chucked a few bob in the plate over the years because it seemed to be the done thing.
Am I religious?
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by mcknowall
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
BTW, my wife is a Reformed Orkadian (Orkney Islands).
She believes they are next in line to secede back to Norway, after the Shetlands have their go that is.
She also enjoys the harp, although I may try to convert her to keyboards instead.
Nothing like a Piano Orkadian...
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by Piece
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I find it requires more blind faith NOT to believe in God.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by feardearg
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Like Jusa Nutter Eejit, in a pew every Sunday, always behind an instrument of some sort. (The second reason Irish music doesn't get the attention I would otherwise give it, the first being the old day job thingy, from which I hope to derive enough retirement funds to buy the freedom to play what I like in my dotage.)
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Tish
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Pagan. Dawkins is the man for me. One of those Catholics I am who managed to cast off the long shadow. Agnostics are just wusses and there's no such thing as atheism. Because there's no such thing. I'm trying to think of a tune title to sum up how I feel. I have two heroes. Jesus and Beethoven.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Of course not. I'm Catholic.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Atheist for myself.
If any God exists, He/She/It's go a lot of explaining to do, and judgement will not fall lightly.
This life we all live is wonderful. To expect another after this one is pretentious in the extreme.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Fanning
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Here's mine, FWIW...
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrislees/Taoism/taoism1.html
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
flipin' heck
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Pastafarian all the way...
Arrrrrgh!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by davydd
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Agnostics are just wusses..."
That's based on the misunderstanding that a lot of people have about agnostics as just being unable to pick a side. That's not really what it means. It doesn't mean that you're sitting on the fence, it's a firm philosophical position.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Marklar
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm with Michael. I'm a flippin heckian, too.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Thank God I'm an Agnostic.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by dogmageek
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Some are and some aren't.
And?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Alex Wilding
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Hedonist.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I am a practicing Pagan, and I play my fiddle extensively at coven events and rituals.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by cathrynb
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Do you really expect truly religious people to step into this crock of guano ?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by pennhorse
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Do you really expect truly religious people to step into this crock of guano ?"
Why not ? Isn't the whole world a crock of guano. Didn't Christ mix with the trashiest riff-raff, prostitutes, lepers, tax gatherers, etc.
The way I see it, you go into the (figurative) desert, to have peace and get your head together, and then you return to the (figurative) market place, which, like any large flea market, is full of pimps, madmen, musicians, clowns, thieves, every kind of person...just like this site...
Anyway, what does it matter ? We're all trashing the planet like there was no tomorrow, ensuring that there will be no tomorrow...way I see it, in another few decades there's going to be nobody around because the biosphere will have collapsed...
We've exceeded the carrying capacity of this planet. Expect a crash. Whatever you believe or don't believe will make no difference whatsoever.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7577528.stm
http://www.enn.com/top_stories/article/38066
http://www.greatchange.org/footnotes-overshoot-easter_island.html
http://www.greatchange.org/footnotes-overshoot-st_matthew_island.html
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Sept 11 has made me even more non-religious than before
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Hup
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
...what I mean is organized religion seems to be an excuse
for people to hate each other and feel happy about it
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Hup
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
If I'm not mistaken, guitar101 is the same person who revved up the board with some very racist stuff a while back. He had several handles going at once, but I don't remember the others offhand. Jeremy banned him for a while and now he's back and, IMHO, heading in the same direction.
Answer: No, I'm an athiest.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
gw - I suspect you may be right about guitar101 - the fellow that loved The Pogues and lamented immigrants ruining Irish culture - I remember those posts all too well.
As far as faith founders go, let me just speculate that I can easily imagine both Jesus and the Buddha at a session and enjoying the music.
However, I can't imagine Mohammed, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, enjoying any music ever.
Go ahead - put a fatwa on me, but I'd rather have tunes with Jesus and Buddha.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Don’t they say the universe is an explosion in the course of still happening, starting out with the big bang and ending up like a skyrocket exploding then coming down like a burnt stick?
I think they calculate that that we are more than half way along the explosion continuum at the moment, while the universe is still expanding but it will eventually slow down and peter out - a bit like a sun getting to the end of its use-by date and imploding.
Maybe it’s all a series of cycles, like Hinduism says it is. Whatever, it seems that it isn’t apparently a perfect or permanent system and wasn’t meant to be. (I always thought God made perfect things; if he/she didn’t make this, then who did? Sounds like a badly thought-out bet at best; and someone lost!)
“Religion” in its various forms seems to me to be ancient attempts to put a handle on all this, after all, they didn’t know about big bang theory back then – did they? Not necessarily invalid, but ways to explain “why”.
I like the handle that Kabbalah puts on this sort of thing – God’s is an "emanation", but hey, that's whole other theory.
Interesting eh? Not necessarily a religion if you don’t want it to be, but a handy way of thinking about all this stuff, I find anyway.
In some ways, from that point of view, all “religions” would be fairly compatible, in a general sense, I would have thought.
Don’t know how many people would be “religious”, but probably there’d be heaps who’d be philosophic, if they really thought about it. Probably more in music than not, I get the impression. Something about music that seems to fit somewhere in all this – probably something about mathematics or the golden mean or something like that, don’t you think?
All interesting stuff with a Guinness and a few tunes! - If your "religion" permits those sorts of things that is!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Very religious. Raised Catholic; understand why most of the teachings were rammed down our throats; started to really read the Bible when I took a New Testament course in grad school. The words of the Bible go beyond organized religion. I believe in an afterlife, and I talk to my Dad all the time. I can't hear him but I know he can hear me.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Dyslexic agnostic insomniac. I lay awake all night pondering whether there really is a Dog.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by mmelec
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I believe in God. And the only man I fear is Kaiser Solze.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
guitar101, you ask about our personal beliefs and yet all you have in your personal profile is "what's up"!!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Donough
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Believe in God, not religious anymore. Something along the lines of informal Deism. Maybe. I try to avoid defining myself.
@ all the athiests: why do you all assume that god cannot exist, but always in a religious sense? Why couldn't the almighty just create life, the universe, and everything, and just observe? Why does he have to exist and be involved? Existence as a deity does not necessitate involvement. Why can't we just be a large ant farm?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by awildman2384
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
It's always amazing to me, wild, that so many people assume that any god out there should be some sort of personal guide who has a plan in mind for each and every individual! When that doesn't happen, or everything falls apart, that really shakes foundations.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I believe in blue sky and cold beer... and triplets.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
DD, that's really is so dumb, because all the great mystics and gurus, if you had ever bothered to read them, say that you don't find God 'out there', you find God 'in here'...
)
(Just thought I'd crank you up a notch, seeing as you seem to be at a loss for anything better to do
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
... and pretty redheads.
Well SOME of them anyway! LOL
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yes, I gathered, wolf. I'm just waiting for my rocking chair and banjo to arrive.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"@ all the athiests..."
The following is long, but worth watching, IMHO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxGMqKCcN6A
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
...and some chaw'n t'baccy.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Eastern Orthodox (that's Christian, not Jewish;) I am guessing there are not many Orthodox on this board, although I could be wrong.
Of course God exists. How else could something as heavenly as Irish music exist? Of course, the devil must exist as well. How else could something as infernal to play as the uilleann pipes exist? (I am piper, I can make digs at pipers) Frankly, I think it'd be hard to be a piper and NOT be somewhat religious...or at least invoke the name of God extensively when the !@#$%^& pipes refuse to cooperate...sorry about that, God!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Flute_boy
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The divil's in the D-tail.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Bit of a sign of the times (sorry that's not meant to be symbolic or anything), that it has to be said that Eastern Orthodox is Christian! ai, yai yai...!!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Here's something to stretch your brain cells, DD
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Looks great, wolf. I'll definitely read up on that. Thanks.
Real Disappearance of the Universe stuff.
- I reckon that's how ouija boards work, mate!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Seems more like some of Sheldrake's ideas, DD
http://www.sheldrake.org/Onlineexp/portal/
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
ouijy boards and crop circles - all the same gear eh!?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Are you trying to do my head in, wolf??
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Wow, wolfbird, that brings a whole new meaning to the phrase "I have felt a great disturbance in the Force..."
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Reverend
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
(ermm, the one at Princeton, I mean...)
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Reverend
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I thought you meant ouijy boards, reverend.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
it's time to listen to god play the fiddle!!
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=Zb1K5BCtLY8
Thank god it's not politics....
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by fedorastain
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I smell the earthy pungent aroma of a troll.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Robert Jones
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
too many beans.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yes. I'm an extremely hardcore theist. But am I a muslim or a christian? I don't even know any more. Rumi makes me confused. "The lamps are different but the light is the same".
I'm BAAAACK! didya'll miss me?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
nah, but have a read of this:
Uisneach:
http://www.medicinedream.com/Press/Press18.php
http://www.fourwinds.shoalhaven.net.au/white%20buffalo/nine_sacred_white_buffalo_calves.htm
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I thought the flying spaghetti monster would make an appearance somewhere around post number 2 ...
Do Flippinheckians share any beliefs with the Calathumpians?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Tish
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I thought all the flute players here worshipped Matt Molloy .
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Kenny
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Flying spaghetti monsters arrive in 2012:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012
“2012 is claimed by some to be a great year of spiritual transformation (or apocalypse). This claim is based on Christian text, Mayan civilization.”
Just after the London Olympics hopefully.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Should be deleted ?
But on reflection - this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with Irish music. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that it should be deleted. Anyone else agree ?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Kenny
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Don't be a fatwa, Kenny.
Liam Ó Maonlaí played whistle at Uisneach, what are ya talkin' about.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I worship the drink and jesus.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
No Jeremy, don't delete it please. Otherwise you'll have to e-mail it to me on my death bed. I couldn't bear it.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Heaven forbid.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Ha, I love all those mild almost blasphemous expletives. Like heaven forbid, flipin' heck, hell's teeth, etc. They are so flexible, you can twist them to mean anything, and you can even use them in front of your kids.
I particularly like them as exclamations. Exclamations of exasperation, exclamations of annoyance and, in splendid irony, exclamations of disbelief, etc.
I had an old uncle whose favourite was, "christ on a bike." Brilliant
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
What's that one I've heard from Norn Ireland - "Hangin' on like blue jesus", isn't it. Hells bells!
Bit like trying to keep up at some sessions init!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
ha
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Zounds!
Give thanks for your God-given session-gifts.
Blessed are they that believe and have not played concertina.
The Devil has the best tunes and Our Lady has some of the next best.
(I guess I am very right-wing Anglo Catholic)
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
That would be a wright-wing wouldn't it geoff?
Some crypto-blasphemes I used to hear in Australia as a kid:
gorblimey teddy!
cripes!
strike me catholic!
cheese'n'rice!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Ah, those were the days, Bren...long gone now I think. Sounds pretty Colac to me! What do you think you'd hear now?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The advantage of having had a Catholic education is that you can roll around in stitches at this sort of thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbkz_QE38pw
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by RichardB
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Having waded laboriously through 70+ posts, I just want to put everyone in the picture. There is no god, there is no heaven or hell, religion is an oppression dreamed up by the ruling classes and practiced by those who are foolish and weak willed. Maybe I could quote Dick Gaughan and say "There's no gods and precious few heroes" well, apart from Thomas Muir of Hunters Hill or James Connolly.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by strayaway
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
G.M. Chrysler!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yes, but how do you *know*, stray? It's all well and good for you, but...ok, what does Marx say about it?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I worship Odin...
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by BrownAleMugger
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Suppress this thread because it has no relevance? A bit puritanical, methinks. Irish music is the best replacement religion some of us will ever find.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Stray, always look on the bright side of life, da, da-da, da-da da-da da-da!
www.christinagallagher.org
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
O'Din!
Now he's exceptional!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Sounds pretty Colac to me! What do you think you'd hear now?"
probably "Omigahd!" or "awesome!"
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I think a bit of modified Douglas Adams explains the universe.
" I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," say Man, "The uilleann pipes are a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't though of that" and promply vanishes in a puff of logic."
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Nothing so tame, I'd say, Bren. Try again!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The only slightly positive thing that I'll say about organised religion is that if it makes you happy, fair play to ya, I wish you well, whoever your god is. As for Marx, read the theory and make your own mind up. I believe in an equal society with civil and human rights at its core, basics denied to the vast majority of the working class irrespective of their creed.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by strayaway
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Fortunately for all of us, there is an early quotation that says "God is not mocked."
So we're all right then, 'cause He/She is bigger than all that.
UNfortunately, not every religious bigot has got the point of this, hence their trying to complain of heresy/blasphemy/whatever from anyone they disagree with.
Personally, I reckon that you're entitled to believe what you like, but not to try to impose it on anyone else. Equally personally, I spend an hour each Sunday sitting in silence with people of a like mind. But it's not a way that works for everyone.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I think you might find a trip to Achill - ahm, *challenging*, stray.
Hey, can you just drop over there and see what's going down?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Strayaway, old chap, I think it was Brian McNeill who wrote that song. But doesn't Dick Gaughan spit it out so well at the very end of the song: "There are NO GODS...!" It's the greatest and shortest and most complete assertion of atheism I've ever heard!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Goodnight, and may your god go with you."
Dave Allen R.I.P.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I love that dave allen one where he's being Ian Paisley in the pulpit shouting about hell and doom fire and gnashing of teeth etc. (You have to think of it iN that harsh ulster accent) and a little old lady in the front pew puts her hand up and say's meekly, "but reverand, I have no teeth." And Paisley screems back at her, "TEETH WILL BE PROVIDED."
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
That was one of the best wasn't it!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yes I am religious, but don't choose to discuss it here. In case you haven't noticed, the Yellow Board is not really a fitting place to discuss such a topic. Not to say I want this thread deleted, instead let it stand as evidence of the futility of such pursuits in this setting.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Of course this thread is relevant, and should stand. There are any number of tunes with a religious reference in the name ... starting with "Father Kelly's".
I shouldn't be surprised if there are some members here who have been ordained or who belong to a religious order.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
If you delete it, it will only rise again.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
TATH WOL BAY PURVAIDED!!! BRILL
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
this was some pretty funny stuff, but yes, I'm religious
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I drink Bailey's and eat really dark chocolate while listening to Joni Mitchell songs - does that qualify?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The chocolate's organic.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Jesus Christ!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by mcknowall
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
That's easy for you to say, mcknowall.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I have always being of the opinion that Irish Traditional Music, just like Gaelic Football and Hurling, was part of the Catholic Church. The only church I've ever heard it played in was a Catholic one. Just look at the annual Fleadh Church Service which has become part and parcel of the Annual Fleadh Ceol. None of your multi denominational rubbish for them. Wither you like it or not, it's a good old Catholic Mass, and packed to the rafters as well. As for me.........yes.... I'm a catholic (with a small c) who believes in the hereafter. At least I'm at the stage of my life where even when I walk into a shop nowadays....I say to myself "What am I hereafter".
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Whaddya reckon, mcknowall? Wanna go along?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
me, born again Pagan!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by iwerzon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
And I say unto you: those that lose their teeth shall find them, and, putting them back in, shall rejoice at the sound.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I believe there is this magic tune floating about in space. If we could only track it down and play it on our instruments all problems of the world would be solved.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by kuec
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Make sure you have your instrument burried with you.
There are sessions in heaven every friday evening 7 till late I understand.
I was at a seance and it vame through on the ouija board.
A well known musician by all accounts was asked by St Peter when he arrived
at the golden gates "do you have your instrument?"
"What?" said the nmusician "sessions in heaven?"
"Yes Said St Peter "every friday"
"Who is in charge?" said the musician
"God" said Peter "He plays the Fiddle & the Flute".
"Fiddle & Flute?" said the musician.
"Yes" Peter replied "Trouble is he thinks he's Frankie Gavin"
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Bernie
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Holy mackerel ! I was wrong, a few brave souls waded in. Wolfbird, you'd definitely enjoy The Dominant Animal by Paul R. Ehrlich, if you haven't read it already.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by pennhorse
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Reminds me of this great anecdote about Padraig O'Keeffe -- apparently true. Since he was frequently to be found in his favourite pub it seems the local parish priest came by to remonstrate him for not showing up in Church [Padraig had no time for religion apparently]. So Padraig says to him, "Well father, you see, it's like this. Five minutes in Church is like an hour. But an hour playing music in this pub with a drink in front of me is like five minutes."
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by skin&bow
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
LOL for Paddy! Thanks mtodd, great one, I'll remember that.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"I swear there ain't no heaven"
"And I pray there ain't no hell."
by ????
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by cjp
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"And When I Die" (Laura Nyro) – bigger hit by Blood Sweat & Tears, tho. Do I win a prize?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by fidkid
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The off-topic topics here are half the crack.
I don’t subscribe to any religious beliefs, but my life has been informed and enriched by reading and discussing the foundational texts of several religions – particularly Buddhism and Christianity. There’s a lot of good psychology there, as well as material to ponder from an ethical point of view.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Could God make a burrito so hot that even he couldn't eat it?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Kheelch
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Everyone here knows I am a Church musician in my non ITM music existance. A real netherworld for musicians.
I thought about this question becasue I go to church so much, and can truly say I zone out most sermons and focus on cues rather than the rituals and their deep meaning.
I also know more religious than most folks and have a very cynical attitude towards the worst and a sympathetic attitude to the very few good ones who still fight the fight.
My response is that I never confuse the message with the messenger.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by zippydw
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
My God is bigger than your God
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by bowburner
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
If there was a God the New York Yankees, Manchester United and Tyrone Gaelic footballers would never win a match, and Antrim would win 4 All Ireland hurling titles and 3 football every decade.
Also I would be a 20 year old flute teacher living in Clare, ready to offer Dyna a place to live (see other thread)
So there is no God.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm not sure I like the idea of the Planetary Smile. The thought of the Earth whizzing through space looking like a cross between a Halloween pumpkin and Richard Branson is not to be borne.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by nicholas
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I heard that a fella was cured at The Holy Stone of Clonrichert there on your western coast.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Did you hear about the agnostic insomniac dyslexic who stayed awake at night wondering if there was a dog?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
No, what happened?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I agree- Richard Branson in the role of God is an unnerving prospect, as is the whole idea of divine smiling.
P.S. We know God exists- only just, mind- because there is reference to him in the Tunes database- "Thank God We're Surrounded By Water".
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"...the agnostic insomniac dyslexic..."
You would think the absence of barking would have clued him in
I'm amazed at the civility of this conversation!
Bravo to you all!
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Bless you, gw. But be patient. There's plenty of time for the usual brawl to arrive. I mean, if we can't fight over religion, what CAN we fight over ? Perhaps someone should start a new thread, 'Are you guys here at session.org political at all ?'
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm bjorn again.
Heaven is a plethora of Abba tribute bands.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by boxedup
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
We can fight over whether sessions are performances and whether or not we should learn tunes from sheet music. Those are problems causing more suffering. Clearly.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
LOL, no Silver Spear, those are concrete issues we can do something about. Whether a god exists or not, we can't change that, nor does the answer (either way) affect how many tunes and pints we can cram in at our weekly sessions.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Michael's Paisley pulpit joke set me wondering:
How many of you guys here have your own teeth?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Mine are all my own, and I have the receipts to prove it.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
They're the devil's agents, Bren. Sent to try us.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Totally agree, Steve Shaw, THE BEST. Maybe I will take a trip to Achill, DD, could be just the thing I need, btw I've been listening to Xavier Rudd recently, good stuff. Thats it from me on this subject for tonight, I'm off to work, tired, bedraggled and full of hope that I might make it through til morning, it's not easy being me.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by strayaway
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Well, I don't think we in ROI/UK are going to be fighting over water in the immediate future. Even the South-East isn't short.
As an incorrigible gremlin in the manifold of being, however, I have in years past smirked at the thought of the metrosexuals fighting to wash their curls in the last drops of crunchy water from some London standpipe even as salmon frolic up burgeoning rivers in the North.
Is it true that in Ireland perambulating statues of the Virgin Mary are often to be met? How far do they get? Do they say hello? It would be intriguing to meet one and listen to its / her life history, even if it included the obligatory list of ailments.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by nicholas
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I once saw one at a session during Willie Week. It/she was playing the spoons.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Wow a virgin at Willie week !
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I saw that one, too. Twice. I thought she was quite contrary.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I used to work with a Kerryman we called the Moving Statue.
You never saw him move, but he was always in a different position whenever you looked.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Anyone got any Knock (Knock) jokes?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
No, because some scenes Mayo fend
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Ah, well- we'll just have to watch the re-runs of Father Ted (Weds. 9-10pm, More 4)- in the UK, anyway.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
what's the difference between Jesus and a picture of Jesus?
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Knock knock knock knock
http://www.knowth.com/fourknocks.htm
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
For those keeping score at home, 148 posts about religion and not one red-faced argument. Your attempt at a wind-up FAILED Guitar101 - suck on that. Maybe you should start another anti-immigrant thread eh?
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I prefer to think that it wasn't a wind-up and that guitar101 was in fact deeply sincere in asking his question.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"knock knock knock knock" (wolfbird.)
Ahhaa - you're a mason, wolf !
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Naah, I'm not a Freemason, DD....I'm a megalithomaniac....I've been studying the Standing Stones and Stone Circles for several decades, and I have to say, although its enjoyable, I still don't have a clue...
Hey, this is really cool. People who talk by whistling.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3241128.stm
http://silbo-gomero.com/silbohome.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whistled_language
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikJnWsv0D0M&feature=related
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I Believe in a caring GOD and am into spirituality a bit. Caoineadh de tri mhuire slow air is a nice tune. Be of good cheer enjoy the tunes
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by boconnell804
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Still not deleted? There _is_ a god!
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Hup
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Denis Murphy.
--DtM
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
LOL - Dan the Man, that was predictable
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Hup
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
You mean there are 4 Knocks now? That's a miracle.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Hey wolf, with the stones, I started years ago with Brugh na Boinne and reading George Russell (AE). He spent his entire life on all that, and puts a pretty good handle on it, I thought.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
How is anyone "deply sincere" when they preface their question with "just curious"?????
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
deeply
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I don't know about you guys, but I just could never be mates with someone who believed in all that mumbo jumbo holy spooks and life after death (what a stupid contradiction) nonsense.
Feel free to believe in whatever you want, I'll happily sit and play some tunes with you. But to really enjoy playing tunes with people, to really nail down that tightness that comes from many years of playing with the same people, they have to be your mates. You have to share a common sense of reality. You have to find Fr Ted more than just funny when he tells Fr Dougal that Santa doesn't exist, and to put him on the list by his bed of other things that don't exist ... which includes the abominal snowman, the loch ness monster, fairies, etc. And right at the bottom, all gods except the catholic one.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Holy smokes!
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Jeepers, ha ha
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Flickerin' flibbertigibberts !
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Reality? Jesus, Ted, you're pushing the boat out there.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Here Lyeth
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
There's several ways to reach an atheist conclusion about life on earth and in the universe, but only one way to become religious - childhood indoctrination.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by ian clark
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
DD, well, that's an interest we share then.
I really liked Martin Brennan's fascinating book on the Boyne Valley...
http://www.knowth.com/stones_of_time.htm
http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&id=AS7hpfq8K1YC&dq=Martin+Brennan&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=-XbEtDAk9e&sig=7wHS34IQhe_lbFQ1VmukEW7aE5Y&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA8,M1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GACRxUIp39s
http://www.mythicalireland.com/astronomy/astroart/index.html
I find the old Irish stories amazing, the Dagda..."sometimes depicted as oafish and crude, even comical, wearing a short, rough tunic that barely covers his rump, dragging his great penis on the ground."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dagda#cite_note-CMT-0
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Here's another interesting video. If it's right, some Irish guys were in the US about three thousand years ago...
http://www.onter.net/trailhi.html
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Christianity, Judaism, Paganism etc etc are things that we created to divide or define ourselves. It's part of the human condition. More humans in the world, worse the condition becomes. I watched "I Love Huckabees" recently and since then have been looking for a space hopper so that I can smash myself in the face with it instead of answering questions about religion. I was an alterboy when I was little and our catholic priest must have been an imposter cos I had to play with meself all the time!
Still looking for a space-hopper.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Jack O'Lantern
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Here's another nice video of how Newgrange works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNVIw061vJ4
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
We've inherited a vast mishmash of ideas from the past, from all over the world, a kind of soup of what previous generations have thought about. But just because it appears confusing and often non-sensical to us, doesn't mean it's all worthless.
It's impossible to have a conversation with someone about God, until you establish what exactly is being discussed, and what the other person means when they use that particular word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptions_of_God
If you trace the etymology of the word back, deity, deus, Zeus, etc, back to indo-european and sanscrit, you get something like deva or diva, which means, literally, something like 'shining one', which might be sun, or moon, or star, or ?
We all depend upon the sun and the moon for our daily life. Without them, we wouldn't exist at all.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
oh, by the way its the season for psylocibin once again!!
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Jack O'Lantern
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
you'd have no doubt about that if you read this thread!
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Bren
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Llig - I'm sorry to hear you say that. I hang with a group of musicians who represent everything from Richard Dawkins atheists to Evangelical Christians and we have wonderful, engaging, thoughtful, civil discussions all the time. We also have great tunes together every week. It can be done.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yeah, religion doesn't have much to do with whether or not someone is a total eejit or an a-hole.
I've met plenty of nice folks of all denominations, and the few chuckleheads I've come across over the years have also had wide-ranging religious beliefs.
This is why I enjoy the church of common sense and acting like a decent human being. Blessed be the nice folks, for they shall truly inherit having a lovely time.
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
how can you have an engaging, thoughtful discussion with someone who believes in spooks?
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
What is a 'spook', Michael ?
# Posted on September 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Often one can't afford to be so picky about whom one engages in a discussion. Lots of people possess worthwhile insights, while at the same time holding what you and others might call irrational beliefs.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Obviously, Michael, if you hold hard, immovable (dare I say "fundamentalist"?) views on any matter, as you seem to, then of course you'd find it impossible to converse with anyone who holds a different opinion. However, if you are willing to open your mind a little, and listen to someone, not so you can rubbish their ideas later, but to try to understand actually what it is they are talking about (even if, in the end, you come to the conclusion that you disagree with them), then you will find that it makes for extremely enjoyable and interesting conversation.
Or, on the other hand, you could just rubbish people's beliefs.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Definition of a fanatic:
'Someone who can't change their mind, and won't change the subject'
(W. Churchill)
Yes, JoeCSS, like Socrates, who was obviously one of the greatest minds of all time, yet totally humble, making out that he himself knew nothing, but asking everybody he met what they thought and why they thought it, out of genuine curiosity...
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
There are many many things in this world I do not understand and have no explanation for. And why most of the world's population believes in fairy stories is one of them. I engage with such people all the time, how could you not, they are everywhere. Mostly, of course, the subject doesn't come up, but when it does I am fascinated to listen.
A couple of years ago I stayed up all night discussing it with my dad. He's racially a catholic (unlike my mum who is a convert). After 8 hours he concluded that, on balance, there probably was no such thing as god and the afterlife. But he would continue to go to church out of habit.
There's no moral behind the story, just observation.
However, and I know that there is a world of difference between religion and organised religion, but it has to be said that the catholic church is nasty organisation. There are many many examples, from grass roots right up to Ratzinger. Spreading, via pseudo science, the "fact" that the membrane of a condom is not a barrier the HIV virus is the same as mass murder in my book.
When I was a kid at the local RC Primary School there was a 15th century listed building in the school grounds. One year it got squatted by a bunch of art students. The local Cannon waited until the students went out to college and without warning, bulldozed the building, along with all the students' property and artworks.
I could be said that it seems I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about all this, and it's certain that I once did. It took me a while to over it and accept that religion is one of life's mysteries, something I will probably never understand. So believe in what you like, I don't mind. Just so long as you stand up for injustice, and never ever ever make the fundamental mistake of thinking that god is on your side.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Well said Michael. When I felt a need to choose a religion, maybe in my mid/late teens, I read as much as I could about all of them, in the hope I could fall in love with one...but they all have aspects that I find unacceptable...that was until I found zen buddhism, which IMO, is a kind of anti-religion religion. It's a methodology for getting free from the social indoctrination, the conditioning, the brain washing, a way of waking up.
But that's my personal thing. I don't try to convert anybody, and I try to respect other people's beliefs, even if I think they're completely dotty, so long as they're not obviously harming other people.
I know a very old lady who is always happy and giggling in a rather inane way, and turns out she's really looking forward to death, because she's so excited she'll be meeting Jesus...now, to my mind, to tell her that her belief is rubbish would be downright cruel and immoral.
That's my problem with Dawkins. He loves logic, and I bet he'd start explaining to her that her beliefs are irrational and absurd, because there is no God, the Universe is just random and meaningless, bla, bla...
I'm on Dawkins side re Darwin. Just that i can see there's great value, for ordinary folks, in poetic wisdom, just as much as in hard literal rationalism.
It's like the distinction between head-knowledge and heart-knowledge. IMHO, we need both, and there's good and bad aspects to both.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
what's the difference........
between jesus......
and a picture of jesus......
?
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yeah, sorry.
I dunno. What is the difference between jesus and a picture of jesus?
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
riddle me this - what the !@@$# Aren't there better things to waste time talking about???? after all , it only takes one nail to hang a picture!
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
It's a difficult situation about the happy old lady who's looking forward to meeting Jesus. Is it cruel and immoral to tell the truth? Is it patronising to pat her on the head and say, what ever makes her happy? The traditionally religious have us believe that their truth is a sacrosanct monopoly, while the progressively religious like to think that there can can be parallel and conflicting truths. Buddhists and Methodists etc. can all be right. And the scientist believes in nothing, only theories that have yet to be proved wrong.
Stephen Dedalus stuck to his truth at his mother's death bed and beat himself up about it with his visions of snot-green bile. Was he right?
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
<<Is it cruel and immoral to tell the truth?>>
and what might that be ? are you so sure its not just your opinion? would you bet your life on it? got any proof? of course not.
Taking a position for, or against, both are an act of faith, a belief system. An open mind accepts the possibility that god exists, and that she doesnt. Im not talking about a christian god specifically, or a muslim god or any of the human constructs know as religion. simply the existance of a universal mind. the conscious universe. ( ps stephen Dedalus? was he the authour of the' staggering work of genius , or somethingr? '
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Holy smokin' popes !
This thread is gettin more rise than a ouijy board.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm often confronted by the religious with the notion that atheism is just another belief system. I'm confused as to why they never get it that it is not a belief system, it is a lack of belief. It's pretty straight forward.
I suppose it's one of the reasons that religion exists in the first place, it seems that human beings need to believe in something/anything, and not nothing.
As for betting my life on it? What a curious challenge: from someone who believes that when they die they don't die, to someone who accepts the finality of death.
'Tis a pity you are not familiar with Joyce
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Probably all a bet –
a. What you see is all you get;
b. What you see isn’t all you get;
c. it isn’t;
d. it is;
e. Or all of the above.
f. Or none.
Take your pick.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Do you or do you not believe there is no god? how can it be anything else apart from a belief system? there is no proof either way.
I certainly didnt say i believe in life after death, where did you get that from? your imagination?
I make no claim either way, i simply dont know, maybe there is, maybe there isnt.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Do you believe that people walk around wearing invisible cardigans? There is no evidence either way.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by fidkid
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
ha ha fid, I like it
How can not believing in something be a "belief system"
If I don't believe in invisible cardigans, do I have a "none belief in cardigans system"?
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
You choose not to answer my question; do you believe there is no god? of course its a belief system, if its notr, what is it?
As far as the invisible cardigan argument goes, yes you are quite correct , there is no proof either way.
You choose to rubbish others belief system, without realising you hold a similarily unproveable belief system. something about removing a mote from anothers eye comes to mind.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
It's the whole attitude and language off the thing that is stacked against.
The theist is the norm. And if you don't subscribe you are an "a" theist, an atheist. The very definition is a denial. I don't deny god,
If you don't believe in invisible cardigans, you don't have to justify it, to prove it.
I don't rubbish belief systems, I just don't believe. I have no belief system. I'm trying to answer the question in as direct a manner as possible. There are many belief systems. I don't have one.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
As directly as I possibly can:
Q. "If atheism is not a belief system, what is it?"
A. "It's a lack of a belief system"
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by ...
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Ionannas, so you are an agnostic ?
Michael, of course it can be cruel and immoral to tell the truth...it's a matter of sensitivity and balance. I'm slightly surprised that you'd doubt that. I mean, if you love someone deeply, you care about their feelings, so why would you bash them over the head with some abstract logical notion that isn't going to benefit them in any way ?
I suppose, if I am to insist on kindness to doddery old ladies, I should be consistent, and be kind to you, by not demolishing your 'non-belief' ?
But you're a robust fellow, so you'll probably survive a critique, even with a few bruises...
Your professed belief in nothing, is every bit as much a belief system as Methodism or Buddhism. It involves all the same logical structures, e.g. rejection of opposing claims, reference to supporting evidence, assertions such as what happens after death, and so forth.
Look, a 'belief system' is what a person believes. It's the model of reality that they carry around in their brains. Just becasue someone says 'I don't believe in invisible cardigans', doesn't follow they have no belief system. That's just one of the ideas from which their belief system is constituted.
It's a philosophical position. You can't opt out. Anybody who expresses a view on existential matters is automatically indicating the belief system that they favour.
BTW, I think you are mistaken re science "believes in nothing, only theories that have yet to be proved wrong."
I've taken a hammering over that issue on a science blog. Modern science doesn't use the term 'proof'. It's a concept in mathematics and philosophy. Modern science deals in uncertainty, and degrees of probability, using stuff like Bayesian statistics, and often presented as a percentage.
The notion that you can prove that the old lady will not meet Jesus after death, is impossible to resolve. Folks much smarter than either of us have been trying to prove/disprove the existence of God or the existence of an Afterlife, for centuries, using logic, and so far without any convincing success.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Atheism may be the lack of a belief "system", but you can't get away from the fact that it is still a belief. You believe that God does not exist. You believe it to be true, and it may be. But who are you to say that it definitely is the truth?
This old lady who is looking forward to meeting Jesus -- you question, Michael, whether it would be cruel to tell her "the truth": that there is nothing after death. I think it would be cruel, though I think "nasty" would be a better way of putting it, as you're unlikely to actually change her beliefs now. I think it would be nasty in EXACTLY the same way that it would be nasty to tell a nice old atheist who is about to die that he will burn in Hell for eternity because of his sins.
"The scientist believes in nothing, only theories that have yet to be proved wrong."
The TRUE scientist knows that it is a bad move to ever say that something is true or untrue: there are only ever working models, waiting to be refined or replaced. But he is completely free to make up his own mind with regards to religion. Science is silent on the subject of God.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
But wolfbird, there is nothing to be disproved. Any idea that is put forward without any evidence (just based on "faith") can be ignored without bothering to look for evidence that disproves it.
Say that my next door neighbor believes a 10 foot tall invisible, benevolent hamster lives in his back yard. But no one has ever seen this hamster, nor any tracks, scat, nibbled greenery, or other sign of its existence. My neighbor is free to believe what he wants, whatever gets him through the night. But I would have no cause at all to believe in such a critter--there is no shred of any sign that it exists. Without any evidence of existence, there's ***no need*** to prove non-existence.
The tabloids are full of space aliens, mutant babies, and torrid love affairs or break ups that don't exist. Imagine if society spent all of its time and energy working to disprove every flippantly invented, fabricated claim. What a colossal waste of time.
I'm not a "non-believer." I believe in the attraction of masses that holds us to this planet. I believe in the pulmonary exchange of gases. I believe in 12 year Red Breast whiskey and home made applie pie. I believe that the atoms in my body will continue bumping into other atoms long after I quit breathing, as they did before I was born, and that's afterlife enough.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
OK, my first point was covered by Wolfbird. Crosspost!
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Science is silent on the subject of god."
That's because there's nothing to say. "God" is a theory that cannot be tested, cannot be proven true or false. So there's no way (or need) to apply the scientific method to it. Any more than to apply science to my neighbor's invisible hamster.
Lots of people apparently believe that this wonderous planet and life itself could not have just happened without some intelligent creator. If that's so, then what created the creator? Surely such an intelligent, omnipotent creator could not "just happen"?
And if such a creator could "just happen," then why couldn't something like our planet and life "just happen" as well?
Point being, the notion of a creator doesn't resolve that ultimate question of how all the stuff in the universe (including the creator) came to be. So it doesn't really help explain much, eh? It's unecessary and more of a red herring than a promising lead.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
That "nothing is knowable" (including "nothing") is a (if not the) classic existential dilemma. Humans have spent thousands of years trying to prove or disprove the "truth" in this statement. Religions, philosophical schools of thought and scientific "certainties" (aka paradigms) have developed in response to the nothing is knowable dilemma and ALL have changed radically over the millenia except religion... Why is that?
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Will -
The fact that Humans believe in God - isolated communities coming up with pretty much exactly the same notion of a non-physical, omnipotent, omniscient Creator - is evidence enough for me. I think (and this is all my own opinion now, I do not hold it to be "the truth") that Mankind instinctively believes in God in the same way that a baby instinctively holds onto its mother. He doesn't need to be told that breast milk is good for him, and that he should try some, and where to find it.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The belief of a Creator is not that He "just happened". He did not come into existence, existence came into Him. The question of how He got there is invalid, because without Him, there is no "there".
Again, all my own belief.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Heh, actually most human babies *do* need to be shown where to suckle.
Joe, at one time, most human societies also believed that the Earth was flat and the sun orbited us, not the other way around. Despite ample evidence to the contrary (e.g., in the first case, the rounded shadow of the Earth against the moon).
GW, are you suggesting that religious dogma hasn't changed over time? And that that's proof that it's "right"? Oh dear.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Joe, I'm guessing we'll just have to leave each other to our opinions. For me, "He did not come into existence, existence came into Him" defies any attempts I can muster to make sense of it.
Suffice to say we differ in our understanding. No problems.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Well, if you want my personal view, Will CPT, I'd say you're setting up a bunch of strawmen.
I must stress, this is my own personal view. Emphatically, I'm not trying to change anybody else's mind.
In the development of my thinking about these hard problems, I concluded that all we have are stories that we tell ourselves.
We choose this or that story as our favourite, for a number of reasons, like, it seems plausible, or that's what parents or respected figures believe, or whatever.
But they are *all* just stories. Nobody can explain the most profound mysteries, like "Why does anything exist ?"
I followed the buddhist path. Some people will say there is no God, in buddhism. But that's not quite correct. The Buddha himself said he was not offering an opinion on that question. His teaching was only concerned with the matter of human suffering.
(What he did say is that there is an 'Unconditioned'. Precisely what that means would require many pages to discuss.)
My position is that I do believe in God. The only problem is that my definition of God is rather different from most other people's idea of God.
My definition is that God is 'all you will ever know and all you will ever experience'. It is very big, totally inclusive, nothing excluded, so it's too big for any word or concept which we have in our language.
To get away from ridiculous ideas of a big bearded Daddy in the sky who beats you if you're bad and sends you to the devil for punishment (which is all rather juvenile and silly, isn't it ?) I'd prefer to call my personal God, Tao.
But, unfortunately, as soon as any word is used, the intitial concept is reduced, limited, shrunk to fit a formula that is convenient. So, it's best not to call 'it' anything. But then, if there's no name, how can we discuss it at all ?
And there you have a clue, why zen buddhists speak in riddles.
Any decent zen master will not get entangled in all the abdurdity that arise in analytical theological discourse. It's much better to put your shoes on with care, say something kind to your neighbour, remember to put the refuse out for collection.
But, if anybody wants to experience God, then, well, it's not that difficult. Much easier than winning a gold at the Olympics. Any decent zen master can teach how it is done.
Problem is, not many people really want to know. They prefer argument and confusion and all kinds of other stuff...
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
+isolated communities coming up with pretty much exactly the same notion of a non-physical, omnipotent, omniscient Creator+
Seems to me that the opposite is true - genuinely isolated communities came up with wildly varying supernatural beliefs, when you consider how much else they had in common.
The big three of the Western and near-Eastern world - Judaism, Christianity and Islam - weren't isolated from each other at all.
Though I'm pretty sure science does have something to say on God - after all a leading scientist just published a best-seller called The God Delusion, and the persistence of belief in the supernatural may well be a topic of interest to socio-biologists and neuroscientists if it isn't already.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Bren
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"GW, are you suggesting that religious dogma hasn't changed over time? And that that's proof that it's "right"? "
No. Just the opposite.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yep, agnostic. Raised by an Atheist. Who, in the last weeks of his life, told us of going down a long tunnel to meet the light, feeling the love and warmth of his welcome, figure that one out!
The universe is far greater than the understanding of man can possibly comprehend.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I believe fidkid’s cardigan analogy was meant to allude to a sense of proportion that usually gets ignored in this eternal argument. Belief in an extraordinary and unproveable claim is not intellectually or philosophically equal in merit to a dismissal of that claim.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
gw, thanks for the clarification.
Ionannas, the light and warmth phenomena are well documented in many cases of near death. I've experienced them myself, coming to in the ER while a nurse was trying to intubate me. (I'm allergic to bees--full anaphalaxis--and have been resuscitated several times.)
My own experience is that the "light" comes on when the brain is deprived of oxygen, perhaps the brain's attempt to stimulate the optic nerve and "wake up" and resolve the oxygen intake problem. I didn't find anything spiritual in it, but perhaps I was distracted by the tube being shoved down my throat....
And a spreading warmth is what happens in the late stages of shock, as your circulatory system clamps down the extemeties and concentrates blood to the vital organs. Again, my own experiences--one with hypothermia and one with significant blood loss--is that you feel warm even as your body is chilling down.
Re: "The universe is far greater than the understanding of man can possibly comprehend." Well, all the more reason to not buy in to ancient myths perpetrated by people who thought diseases were caused by curses or evil spirits and who relied on magic for everything from medicine to meteorology.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
FTR, early on in this thread I stated flat out that I'm an atheist. I also posted a link to a Richard Dawkins lecture at the TED conference that I think pretty much sums up why I have no hesitation in stating such.
IMHO, religious dogma has changed very little over the millenia (unlike science and philosophy) because the perpetrators of the dogma realize it as the "ultimate" form of control over masses of people who have an irrational fear of the unknowableness of being and death. Especially death...
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Bren, re Dawkins and Dennett, and other scientists who attack religious belief....
I love biology and Darwin's understanding of life on Earth, and so on. I'm not knocking science. But I hate those two's attempts to rubbish religion.
As Joe CSS pointed out, all peoples have always had some sort of religious belief. It's an essential cultural component.
Dawkins is great on evolution and useless on religion. He only seems to understand one tiny sub-section of religion, a peculiar version of Christianity that resides in certain evangelical fundamentalists, mostly in the USA. He hates them, and they hate him.
Dawkins and Dennett operate by logic. They think that logic is the only meaningful knowledge. I find that laughable, and in any case, their position is cracked wide open by Derrida's critique of logocentrism.
Science is fine. But it cannot explain why we find things beautiful, it cannot even explain why we laugh. Science can only deal with stuff that can be measured, and to suggest that is all that exists or is important is absurd, IMO.
I mean, people here ought to understand, if anyone can, that the fun of playing music is neither logical or scientific. You can't explain it rationally, or pin it down in a formula. That's why I don't agree with Dawkins. There is 'poetic' knowledge which is just as true, in it's own way, as scientific truths.
For example, here's a story. It tells us something about the human condition. It's completely unscientific. But does that mean it's worthless, or meaningless ? Of course not...
http://www.awok.org/hands-of-the-gods/
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
That's the nub of it--that irrational fear. Makes no sense to me. To fear death is to fear being alive.
Seems silly to worry. It is what it is. Might as well just enjoy the experience.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
<<Belief in an extraordinary and unproveable claim>> And that is?; that there is no god.?
You see? For an atheist the existance of god is an extraordinary claim . And for believers the non-existance of god is an extraordinary and unprovable claim.
It all depends which 'side of the fence you sit' as to what you consider to be extraordinary.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Wolfbird, what if "poetic knowldge" turns out to just be biochemical reactions? Like, we fall "in love" with people who smell right, y'know, that theory that our brains detect subtle differences in people and are attracted to those with different immune systems from our own, the better to enhance our offspring's health and chances for survival.
[sorry, couldn't resist the wind up]
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
“’GW, are you suggesting that religious dogma hasn't changed over time? And that that's proof that it's "right"?’
No. Just the opposite.”
Huh? What would the opposite be?
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"My own experience is that the "light" comes on when the brain is deprived of oxygen, perhaps the brain's attempt to stimulate the optic nerve and "wake up" and resolve the oxygen intake problem. I didn't find anything spiritual in it,"
BUT, Will CPT, all that you're saying here, is that's the story you told yourself. It's based upon what other folks have told you about biology and medicine. You're saying that a simple mechanistic process is sufficient and satisfies you.
What the heck do you think 'spiritual' means ? I mean, what sort of experience would you have to have that'd lead you to say 'I had a spiritual experience' ?
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I would like to go on record as knowing with absolute, utter certainty that there ARE forces greater than myself.
I'm married. And the father of a 2-1/2 year old.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by fidkid
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Will CPT, ALL knowledge, whether scientific or poetic (or Classical versus Romantic, in Robert Pirsig's terminology) is just biochemistry, because, it's just electro-chemical activity in neurons.
But you're reducing the human condition to that of a computer (which many scientists and doctors are happy to do) which is just appalling, in my view. You rob humanity of all the qualities that make humans of value.
To try an analogy. All computer info is just electronic pulses, digital code. But what you see on the screen can be utter garbage, like a popup advertising online gambling, or you could be reading a pdf of Tolstoy. Quality makes a difference.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
wolfbird, Dawkins' "logical" method is not the point. That he's willing to speak out about atheism is. I'm an athiest. I do not believe in a deity or deities. I'm not saying I don't have an appreciation for certain aspects of Taoism or Zen Buddhism or even certain stories in the Old and New Testaments. I fully appreciate the "poetry." But I can experience the wonder and mystery of life without the dogmatic "unarguable" aspects of organized religion and without needing to call everything my brain can't explain "God." Some need the comfort of a "God," I don't so I appreciate the Dawkins' of the world giving voice to a subject that has heretofore been rather unpopular--to say the least.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I wonder how many different gods we’re talking about here. The god of a particular religion or cult has a back story, a cast of characters and a set of notions that come along with the package, at least to the fundamentalist. Each of these god-packages constitutes an extraordinary claim because the profusion of god-packages renders each essentially arbitrary.
“There’s this book and it’s very old, see? and it tells how the world was created and how we can live forever, yeah, that’s the ticket!...”
Lots of people (most?) who talk about god are talking about this kind of god-package. Why should I “believe” any one of them when I can go around the corner and find yet another “old book” with a different god-package?
Other people talk about God just to have a language for discussing the limits of human comprehension or to describe their experiences in self-awareness (and self-non-awareness). Arguments about the existence of this kind of god ultimately wind up begging the question.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I only used Dawkins' book as an example of scientists being interested in the God Question.
I haven't read it. Polemic tires me (if that is what it is - I won't know until I read it I suppose). I've read many of his books on genetics and evolution and I thought they were marvellous expositions and he didn't come across as a ranter.
I'm an atheist because I don't feel there's any God. Before I even begin to approach it logically. But I understand religion because I was a devout Catholic as a youngster. I don't despise religion. Religion is culture and has shaped us even if we don't know it, because it has shaped our culture. The bad things done by in the name of religion are the result of human nature. That is just the way we are - which Dawkins et al explain very well.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Bren
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
--“’GW, are you suggesting that religious dogma hasn't changed over time? And that that's proof that it's "right"?’
--No. Just the opposite.”
"Huh? What would the opposite be?"
Good question. I should have just said "No" and left it at that.
That said... Religious dogma, for the most part, hasn't changed over millennia unlike science and philosophy which have gone through radical paradigm shifts. The reason for this is because the organizers of organized religion know that the dogma is an effective means of control over people who have an irrational fear of the unknown. To me, this is a kind of mind control and is unethical at best (I'm being nice here). Top billing goes to ANY form of religious fundamentalism...
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
This has been a very fun discussion to stay out of...
My personal spirituality has to do with feeling at one with the universe. It has very little to do with any "God"
But these are things that are more easily mulled over after killing a bottle of Black Bush with a friend (Will knows what I'm talking about)
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
gw, I think you're speaking from a USA perspective. Atheism has a long history in the UK, long before Dawkins.
I tend to share your view on organised institutionalised religion. It's all to easy for people whose real motive is power/wealth/political manipulation, to hijack religion for their own ends. In fact, I believe that's what's brought religion into disrepute, all down the ages.
See, for example, St Paul co-opting Jesus, and the Emperor Constantine co-opting St Pau, and then the various Popes and their many disreputable acts. Including the Spanish Inquisition, (which, as we are all aware, nobody expects).
I'd call UK a post-religious soceity, whilst USA is obviously not.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"gw, I think you're speaking from a USA perspective."
You are correct, sir! And because I've stated publicly that I'm an athiest I'll never be elected president of the good ol' USofA.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
What is rather nice, is that despite you wide range of views expressed - everyone seems to have their own personal take that's different - something else is operating. Is it tolerance and consideration for others ? That's got to be splendid, eh ?
To have strong views and not get angry or upset because some other idiot has different views... sigh ...so many millions have died because of that.
I don't know if there are Earth Mother Goddess or Gaia worshipping pagans here, but the planet seems to be doing something very peculiar....perhaps it's weary of our foolishness and has decided to shake us off ?
What exactly happens when there's a magnetic reversal ? I'm not sure. I'll have to google later, when I've had my supper...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/pf/76158139.html
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Heh, Reverend, there's nothing better than star dust saturated in Black Bush, eh?
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Wolfbird, understanding biochemistry doesn't take the wonder out of life. Wonder and poetry and "quality" don't have to be reduced just because we've started to get some inkling of the neural interactions at the root of experience. And our brains are far too complex and random and free-associating to stoop to the mere level of a computer.
So take a breath and reconsider the words you seem to want to put into my mouth....
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Hahaha, just cross posted with you Wolfbird.
Yep, let's keep this light hearted and not aggro. It helps to not mis-characterize other's comments.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Once again I'll state how amazed I am at the civility of this conversation! If it was only the same in threads about backers...
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth, Will CPT. Sorry if it cam across that way.
My point is, that your way of explaining your experience, in terms of biochemistry, etc. is like explaining how computer hardware operates.
I'm not saying it's not wonderful, or interesting in it's own right. But, to extend the analogy, the quality of the software is what really matters.
You're saying you're just a machine, even if a marvellous machine.
I think that's wrong, a mistake. A human being is something more than a soft machine.
You're free to disagree. I'm not trying to change your view.
And re gw's post, about being grateful for Dawkins - I just read that about a fifth of Americans are 'born again'. And I suppose there's a lot more who're bible bashers of one kind or another. Under those circumstances, and listening to Palin, I'd probably be very grateful for Dawkins too. Just that in UK, atheism is no big deal. Politicians rarely mention religion. I don't think it wins any votes.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
If Will is saying that humans are a sort of marvellous machine ... I don't think he's wrong. I just don't agree.
Mind you, I'm not at all sure that that's what he is saying ...
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by ethical blend
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
The only one here who's mentioned the human-machine analogy is wolfbird. I would never say such a thing. Though he keeps insisting I'm saying it. (A bit too reminiscent of the current homecoming king competition we have going on stateside at the moment.)
I think any organism is wonderous, amazing, rife with mysteries and surprises. In contrast, even the most complex machines are utterly predictable and much easier to reduce to their basic components.
# Posted on September 5th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Okay, I'll try again, Will CPT.
You said "My own experience is that the "light" comes on when the brain is deprived of oxygen, perhaps the brain's attempt to stimulate the optic nerve and "wake up" and resolve the oxygen intake problem. I didn't find anything spiritual in it,"
That's accurate, isn't it ?
My comment is that your analysis is a description of mechanism. How you can say it's not mechanistic, baffles me. I didn't write those words, you did.
It's as if you were describing the innards of a motor car or a computer. You say that there's some sort of feedback loop, whereby a sensor detects oxygen shortage, so sends a signal back to the brain which produces false light in the optic nerve...whatever.
For all I know, perhaps that's correct. Perhaps that does happen. But so what ? Are you just a complicated machine ? I mean, if you conceive of yourself in the kind of terminology you used here, then it's not surprising that you didn't find any spiritual aspect, because you're looking in the wrong place.
I tried to explain that with my hardware/software analogy, but I was tired and admitedly didn't do a good job.
Spirituality is to do with consciousness. It's not the machinery, it's not the hardware, it's not the biochemistry, it's something else. It's experiences that consciousness has. Trying to explain it away by reductionist appeals to mechanisms, is hand-waving, and misses the point.
Nevermind. I've no intention here to change anybody's minds. As far as I'm concerned anybody can think whatever they want. I was merely trying to explain why I reached my own personal position with regard to religion and spiritual matters.
With a few minor disagreements, my view is mostly identical to that of Alan Wallace, who illuminates the area in a more sophisticated manner than I can.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2381164272554857228&hl=en
And here's another guy's take on spirituality, some may find interesting
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Sprituality.html
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
In a few days time the Large Hadron Collider will be switched on at CERN in Geneva. Now if the LHC goes pear-shaped in a big way no-one on this planet will have to worry about anything ever again.
And what would be the last tune you'd like to play?
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Yer right, no one's going to change anyone's mind here.
But you're the only one here who keeps refering to machines and mechanistic stuff.
I'd prefer to think the process I described is organic, not mechanistic.
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Yer right, no one's going to change anyone's mind here."
Aye! And think of all the time missed practicing because of the hours spent yammering about being and nothingness!
Seems to me the thread is exhausted. guitar101 lost his windup attempt (benhall.1 needs to do some research), and we're all still mustard board mates...
Bravo!
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Will CPT, I think you do not understand what 'mechanistic' thinking is, but no matter, everyone has to find their own route.
People try to make sense of themselves and their experiences in terms of stuff they already understand, or believe they understand.
When I was a little kid, interested in the brain, I read the most advanced texts available at the time, which proudly proclaimed that the brain was just like a telephone exchange (being the coolest snazziest new techno toy of the time).
Every year since, folks have come up with a new explanation.
The daftest thing I've seen recently, obviously proposed by a geek who spent too much time with a playstation, is that the Universe is actually a computer simulation, and we are all avatars being played by something or someone.
It's just one more story, although a very silly one, IMO, to explain what we don't understand.
Yes, I think religion is sorted for this week. Shall we move on to politics, and see if we can provoke a punch up ?
This guy believes that politics is the problem, not the solution. I propose that politics and politicians henceforth and forthwith be abolished. Any takers ?
http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Politics.html
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
No no no! Chill wolfie! Go play some music, Have a nip, whatever.... Don't belabor the point.
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by GDub
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
"Will CPT, I think you do not understand what 'mechanistic' thinking is, but no matter, everyone has to find their own route."
D'oh! Yer absatootly right, yer honor. I dunno whas I'm talking about. Turrible eejit I am. Thanks for pointin' that out--wouldda missed my own stoopidity....
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
TL;DR. Atheist of course.
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by Björn
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Let that be a to you lesson, m'lad, I'm letting you off lightly this time, six months on the chain gang, bread and water only. Guards ! take him down...And no lilting !
# Posted on September 6th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
I'm an Ordained Deacon in the Church of What's Happenin' Now.
# Posted on September 9th 2008 by hauke
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
Anyone interested may check out www.fisheaters.com or www jesusiam.com and see what you think.
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by boconnell804
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
No offence intended to anyone, but, really, whatever you believe or don't believe, the biosphere is collapsing all around us, whichever measure you look at...
http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/09/survival-of-nicest.html
http://www.chrismartenson.com/three_beliefs
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=143E59F5A37A9C84
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Are you guys here at thesession.org religious at all?
What Operating System are YOU running ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arh_raWjYDM&feature=related
# Posted on September 17th 2008 by wolfbird