First off, I've read a lot of the other discussions on this site about playing/purchasing/etc. a bouzouki. They've been extremely helpful for a new player, so I thank you all now for that.
That said, I still have a few questions that I'm hoping y'all wouldn't mind helping out with:
1. I'm a poor college student, and paying $500 for a Trinity College instrument is about all I can afford right now (I'm even selling one of my bass guitars to do so). Is a TC instrument even worth the money? Or should I just give up with that idea all together? I honestly couldn't afford anything much more expensive. I suppose $700 is my max.
2. Is the bouzouki a good instrument for playing simply for oneself? Also, does it suit vox?
3. I've played bass for sometime, now, and I find it hard to imagine that the distance between frets of the bouzouki is far greater than that of a bass. Is it fairly hard to learn to stretch your fingers out in order to play tunes well? (Maybe someone could tell me a rough estimate of how far the distance between the first fret and the nut is on a bouzouki...?)
4. Is the bouzouki able to play both chords *and* melody? Or do most players lean towards one or the other? From what I've heard, listening to various recordings and whatnot, it seems that players switch back and forth, but I just want to be sure.
I hope those questions are worthy of the asking. Thank you all in advance for what I'm sure will be sage advice. I greatly appreciate it!
i think you will find all your answers here if you search a little.
differences between the zouk and the bass
on the bass, you generally play one note for a whole bar, on one big phat slack string,
on the irish zouk, you will play chords, or some play melody, or a mixture, on double course, the tension you have to press down is alot higher, with either many note changes per bar, or few changes per bar, but lots of notes at once.
i dont own a zouk, i consider it a "big hands" instrument, a little bit beyond my mitts at present.
you can pick one up cheaper than the prices you give, try the usual channels, ebay etc.
My 'zouk has a scale length of 66 cm, and about 3.7 cm from fret #0 to fret #1.
You can use it for melody or chords. Tune it GDAd for easy chord work but not so easy melody playing, or GDAe for chord and melody. I've never played a Trinity, but I reckon that it will be ok. Just think that any cheap instrument will greatly benefit of a good setup.
It is the only true path to accompaniment for ITM. All the answers you seek can be found in the playing and recordings of the venerable saints to whom we look for inspiration:
Our Lord Alec Finn
Eoin O'Neill (For it is He)
His Joyfullness Cyril O'Donohuge
Holy Father Donal Lunny
His Holiness Andy Irvine
Johnny Moynihan (Praise be His Name!)
Manus Lunny (Glory to Him)
Reuban Bada (He is Risen!)
Tune to GDAD and prepare for enlightenment. Don't worry about the scale length; with practice you will be fine with it.
Seek out a wise teacher, or failing that receive the wisdom of the noble and all-knowing Zan MacLeod on DVD.
Welcome brother (er, or sister) - the journey is long but the rewards are . . . considerable.
1. If you can get a decent price on a used TC, it's not a bad deal. I started on one of those, and sold it for basically what I bought it for a couple years later. They're not great instruments, but they're playable, and will be sufficient to get you started. At one point, I had both a TC bouzouki and a Johnson octave mandolin, which was made in the same shop. The bouzouki was a *much* better sounding instrument, because of the longer scale. So if you're used to a bit of a reach, and moving your hand around on the bass, go for the longer scale.
2. Bouzouki is fine for playing by yourself, and accompanying vocals. Although, my personal preference for accompaniment style on the bouzouki is more of the picking pattern - counter melody style, which is less widely accepted as a backing for vocals than the guitar-style strumming.
3. The TC bouzouki is 26.75" scale length, which is pretty long for playing tunes. But I started there, and it helps me with my ability to switch between scale lengths. So since you're used to a bass, you can probably handle it. Especially if you're comfortable moving your hand a bit to reach things, instead of planting yourself in first position, and trying to stretch for stuff.
4. Most of the bouzouki players I know mainly accompany on bouzouki, although a lot of them also play melody (on bouzouki, as well as other instruments). I play melody, and occasionally accompany on bouzouki. The rub here, is that people that play tunes gravitate toward GDAE tuning (same as a fiddle and mandolin, an octave lower), and people who accompany tend to gravitate toward GDAD tuning, so that they have an open D drone string on top. So if you're comfortable moving around, you might think about playing tuned in GDAD, which can be difficult. But Roger Landes, the great bouzouki player in New Mexico, plays tunes in GDAD quite well.
The real thing you want to explore is what makes the bouzouki stand out in Irish music, and that's the open tuning, droning strings, percussive nature of the instrument. If you want to strum chords, and accompany songs, you might as well just play guitar.
Good luck with your journey! (And beware the slippery slope... it might just lead you to *banjo*, which is exactly what it did to me... )
I hope you have fun and you can reject the dark side ( banjo ) There is forgiveness for those that repent Reverend.
Have you thought of a cittern with the extra bass strings? Nittab
You mean, like the 5 course Fletcher Brock that I play?
Besides, the banjo isn't the dark side - like John Carty told me, "the banjo is everybody's favorite instrument, they're just afraid to admit it in front of their friends"
Great advice! Those are just the kinds of words I needed to hear (or read, heh). I've been playing guitar for the past two years instead of my bass, and, well, to be completely honest, I think it just sounds a bit too plain.
re: bazouki dave
"Have you thought of a cittern with the extra bass strings? Nittab"
Umm...not really, to be honest. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a cittern very much like a bouzouki, but tuned differently and also with a shorter scale? Hope that doesn't make me sound like an ignoramus. ;)
As far as the banjo goes, it does sound mildly appealing. But I think I'll take a decade or so and see if I can't get to playing the bouzouki first!
re: Sugarfoot Jack
Nice post. And it's "brother," in case you were wondering. ;)
I'm ashamed to say I only recognized three of the names on your list (Lunny, Irvine, and Moynihan), but I'm immensely excited to check out the rest of them! It was listening to those three players that originally had me interested in playing the bouzouki, and I'm sure the other fellows you mentioned will only increase that excitement.
re: Reverend
Thanks for answering my questions directly; it was very helpful. I think I will end up trying a TC. Maybe once I get enough money, I'll try getting it fixed up. I heard that replacing the bridge with a certain, other kind of bridge can help the sound...?
Nittab, I would suggest going to the mandolincafe.net message board and scroll down to the CBOM section (Cittern Octave Bouzouki Mandola). There's a great deal of current and archived wisdom and instrument reviews. The Trinity College stuff is a good value for the money. If you come across a shop called Lark In The Morning, Buy those cheap bouzoukis at your peril.
A big question for you would be scale length. The Trinity College bouzouki runs about 25 3/4" and their octave mandolins run about 20". You gain in ease of playability with the shorter at the expense of some "zing" in the tone in the longer(in my opinion.). Also, the TC bouzoukis come stock strung in octaves like 12 string guitars on the G and D courses. You may or may not like this...many don't. You can change them out but you may have to do a bit of tweaking at the nut and saddle. The octaves are strung in unison.
The mandolin cafe has a classified section and used octaves and zouks in your price range turn up fairly often, sometimes with upgrades in the bridge, nut, and tailpiece.
If you think you want to play the tunes, I'd go with the octave. Other makers have scale lengths of 22-23 inches which sound a bit more versatile (to me) and are still fairly easy for melody playing. They tend to be a bit pricier though.
I live in Seattle, where one of the Lark in the Morning stores is located. It's a fun shop to go to, but I would *never* recommend anyone who wants to pick up a serious instrument to go there. The staff is really nice and I love hanging out with them, but their instruments are definitely not of the highest quality.
Thank you for the website, and for the advice about how the TC bouzoukis are strung...very interesting.
There's a new solid no frills builder of mandolin family instrumentscalled Gypsy's Music...all solid wood flat top construction. there's a used octave mandolin by them in the Mandolincafe Classifieds for just under $700 with a gig bag. I have nof financial interest but it would be worth thinking about. Their stuff has gotten good reviews over there.
Well, I went to the mandolincafe site, and there was a ton of great info. Actually, it was pretty cool because there were a few good threads on the TC bouzouki itself; very informative.
I emailed the company, asking them for more information on the TC bouzouki they have listed (item number 10646). Apparently, there are a few nicks, as well as flaw which they describe as "slight binding separation on back." That makes me a tad bit nervous to purchase it. I asked them to send me some pictures, so I'll check it out.
Also, they have Johnson bouzoukis, selling them for (what seems to me to be) pretty cheap, with the case, as well. I looked at some pictures, and this may sound superficial, but the sunburst style (which I love on my bass) just looks a bit odd to me on the bouzouki. The shape of the body also doesn't seem too traditional. Still, if it sounds good, I suppose I'd consider it. Anyone have thoughts on Johnson bouzoukis?
Finally, I spoke with my local wood instrument repairman, and he said he'd set up a bouzouki for about seventy bucks, which I thought was really cool. We talked for a while about bouzoukis and guitars, and he was really awesome about it.
In any case, thank you all, again, for helping me out. I feel like my bouzouki vision is starting to become a little more focused, and in all honsety, it's because of you kind folks.
Sugarfoot Jack, I'll have to check those links out later; no speakers on this computer. :( But I'm excited to see them!
P.S. I hope all my questions aren't annoying; I don't want to overstep my bounds, here. So, again, I really do thank you all for being so generous with your time.
Nittab, do yourself a huuuuuge favor and go back to the mandolincafe and do a search in the general mandolin section on Folk Of The Wood. Now I bought my TC bouzouki from them and had no problems and they have changed either or both management and ownership. An awful ot of people had incredible problems with them for quite a while.
I would look at Eldery Instruments in Michigan for online music retail. Very reliable shop and they sell Trinity College and Bill Peterson bouzoukis and octave mandolins.
Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Hey, all,
First off, I've read a lot of the other discussions on this site about playing/purchasing/etc. a bouzouki. They've been extremely helpful for a new player, so I thank you all now for that.
That said, I still have a few questions that I'm hoping y'all wouldn't mind helping out with:
1. I'm a poor college student, and paying $500 for a Trinity College instrument is about all I can afford right now (I'm even selling one of my bass guitars to do so). Is a TC instrument even worth the money? Or should I just give up with that idea all together? I honestly couldn't afford anything much more expensive. I suppose $700 is my max.
2. Is the bouzouki a good instrument for playing simply for oneself? Also, does it suit vox?
3. I've played bass for sometime, now, and I find it hard to imagine that the distance between frets of the bouzouki is far greater than that of a bass. Is it fairly hard to learn to stretch your fingers out in order to play tunes well? (Maybe someone could tell me a rough estimate of how far the distance between the first fret and the nut is on a bouzouki...?)
4. Is the bouzouki able to play both chords *and* melody? Or do most players lean towards one or the other? From what I've heard, listening to various recordings and whatnot, it seems that players switch back and forth, but I just want to be sure.
I hope those questions are worthy of the asking. Thank you all in advance for what I'm sure will be sage advice. I greatly appreciate it!
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by nittab
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Do what you want - have fun exploring and sell it if this doesn't work out.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Hup
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
i think you will find all your answers here if you search a little.
differences between the zouk and the bass
on the bass, you generally play one note for a whole bar, on one big phat slack string,
on the irish zouk, you will play chords, or some play melody, or a mixture, on double course, the tension you have to press down is alot higher, with either many note changes per bar, or few changes per bar, but lots of notes at once.
i dont own a zouk, i consider it a "big hands" instrument, a little bit beyond my mitts at present.
you can pick one up cheaper than the prices you give, try the usual channels, ebay etc.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by knucklehead
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Don't think about it,do it.And thank you for calling the instrument by it's proper name and not that awful word zouk.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by dafydd
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
My 'zouk has a scale length of 66 cm, and about 3.7 cm from fret #0 to fret #1.
You can use it for melody or chords. Tune it GDAd for easy chord work but not so easy melody playing, or GDAe for chord and melody. I've never played a Trinity, but I reckon that it will be ok. Just think that any cheap instrument will greatly benefit of a good setup.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Do it. Head to the light.
It is the only true path to accompaniment for ITM. All the answers you seek can be found in the playing and recordings of the venerable saints to whom we look for inspiration:
Our Lord Alec Finn
Eoin O'Neill (For it is He)
His Joyfullness Cyril O'Donohuge
Holy Father Donal Lunny
His Holiness Andy Irvine
Johnny Moynihan (Praise be His Name!)
Manus Lunny (Glory to Him)
Reuban Bada (He is Risen!)
Tune to GDAD and prepare for enlightenment. Don't worry about the scale length; with practice you will be fine with it.
Seek out a wise teacher, or failing that receive the wisdom of the noble and all-knowing Zan MacLeod on DVD.
Welcome brother (er, or sister) - the journey is long but the rewards are . . . considerable.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
In answer to the specific questions:
1. If you can get a decent price on a used TC, it's not a bad deal. I started on one of those, and sold it for basically what I bought it for a couple years later. They're not great instruments, but they're playable, and will be sufficient to get you started. At one point, I had both a TC bouzouki and a Johnson octave mandolin, which was made in the same shop. The bouzouki was a *much* better sounding instrument, because of the longer scale. So if you're used to a bit of a reach, and moving your hand around on the bass, go for the longer scale.
2. Bouzouki is fine for playing by yourself, and accompanying vocals. Although, my personal preference for accompaniment style on the bouzouki is more of the picking pattern - counter melody style, which is less widely accepted as a backing for vocals than the guitar-style strumming.
3. The TC bouzouki is 26.75" scale length, which is pretty long for playing tunes. But I started there, and it helps me with my ability to switch between scale lengths. So since you're used to a bass, you can probably handle it. Especially if you're comfortable moving your hand a bit to reach things, instead of planting yourself in first position, and trying to stretch for stuff.
4. Most of the bouzouki players I know mainly accompany on bouzouki, although a lot of them also play melody (on bouzouki, as well as other instruments). I play melody, and occasionally accompany on bouzouki. The rub here, is that people that play tunes gravitate toward GDAE tuning (same as a fiddle and mandolin, an octave lower), and people who accompany tend to gravitate toward GDAD tuning, so that they have an open D drone string on top. So if you're comfortable moving around, you might think about playing tuned in GDAD, which can be difficult. But Roger Landes, the great bouzouki player in New Mexico, plays tunes in GDAD quite well.
The real thing you want to explore is what makes the bouzouki stand out in Irish music, and that's the open tuning, droning strings, percussive nature of the instrument. If you want to strum chords, and accompany songs, you might as well just play guitar.
Good luck with your journey! (And beware the slippery slope... it might just lead you to *banjo*, which is exactly what it did to me...
)
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Oh, I do love 'Cyril O'Donohuge'! He'll be tickled pink when he hears that one.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
I hope you have fun and you can reject the dark side ( banjo ) There is forgiveness for those that repent Reverend.
Have you thought of a cittern with the extra bass strings? Nittab
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
You mean, like the 5 course Fletcher Brock that I play?
Besides, the banjo isn't the dark side - like John Carty told me, "the banjo is everybody's favorite instrument, they're just afraid to admit it in front of their friends"
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Hey, all!
Great advice!
Those are just the kinds of words I needed to hear (or read, heh). I've been playing guitar for the past two years instead of my bass, and, well, to be completely honest, I think it just sounds a bit too plain.
re: bazouki dave
"Have you thought of a cittern with the extra bass strings? Nittab"
Umm...not really, to be honest. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a cittern very much like a bouzouki, but tuned differently and also with a shorter scale? Hope that doesn't make me sound like an ignoramus. ;)
As far as the banjo goes, it does sound mildly appealing. But I think I'll take a decade or so and see if I can't get to playing the bouzouki first!
re: Sugarfoot Jack
Nice post. And it's "brother," in case you were wondering. ;)
I'm ashamed to say I only recognized three of the names on your list (Lunny, Irvine, and Moynihan), but I'm immensely excited to check out the rest of them! It was listening to those three players that originally had me interested in playing the bouzouki, and I'm sure the other fellows you mentioned will only increase that excitement.
re: Reverend
Thanks for answering my questions directly; it was very helpful. I think I will end up trying a TC. Maybe once I get enough money, I'll try getting it fixed up. I heard that replacing the bridge with a certain, other kind of bridge can help the sound...?
Thanks again, all!
# Posted on August 30th 2008 by nittab
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Make sure you check out Michael Homes With Dervish too.
Great list of Bouzouki players there Sugarfoot Jack. But ive never heard of Eoin O'Neill or Reuban Bada.
Good luck nittab with the Bouzouki, ive been toying with the idea of getting one for ages.
# Posted on August 30th 2008 by _Jack_
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Nittab, I would suggest going to the mandolincafe.net message board and scroll down to the CBOM section (Cittern Octave Bouzouki Mandola). There's a great deal of current and archived wisdom and instrument reviews. The Trinity College stuff is a good value for the money. If you come across a shop called Lark In The Morning, Buy those cheap bouzoukis at your peril.
A big question for you would be scale length. The Trinity College bouzouki runs about 25 3/4" and their octave mandolins run about 20". You gain in ease of playability with the shorter at the expense of some "zing" in the tone in the longer(in my opinion.). Also, the TC bouzoukis come stock strung in octaves like 12 string guitars on the G and D courses. You may or may not like this...many don't. You can change them out but you may have to do a bit of tweaking at the nut and saddle. The octaves are strung in unison.
The mandolin cafe has a classified section and used octaves and zouks in your price range turn up fairly often, sometimes with upgrades in the bridge, nut, and tailpiece.
If you think you want to play the tunes, I'd go with the octave. Other makers have scale lengths of 22-23 inches which sound a bit more versatile (to me) and are still fairly easy for melody playing. They tend to be a bit pricier though.
Good luck..these are wonderful instruments!
# Posted on August 30th 2008 by Steve L
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Hey, Steve L!
I live in Seattle, where one of the Lark in the Morning stores is located. It's a fun shop to go to, but I would *never* recommend anyone who wants to pick up a serious instrument to go there. The staff is really nice and I love hanging out with them, but their instruments are definitely not of the highest quality.
Thank you for the website, and for the advice about how the TC bouzoukis are strung...very interesting.
# Posted on August 30th 2008 by nittab
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
There's a new solid no frills builder of mandolin family instrumentscalled Gypsy's Music...all solid wood flat top construction. there's a used octave mandolin by them in the Mandolincafe Classifieds for just under $700 with a gig bag. I have nof financial interest but it would be worth thinking about. Their stuff has gotten good reviews over there.
# Posted on August 30th 2008 by Steve L
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Ruben Bada (check the other links for more):
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TF--f7JxFPk
Eoin O'Neill:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFk9VK_xo_Y
# Posted on August 31st 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Hey!
Well, I went to the mandolincafe site, and there was a ton of great info. Actually, it was pretty cool because there were a few good threads on the TC bouzouki itself; very informative.
Also, I found this website:
http://www.folkofthewood.com/used/octaves-zooks-mandolas/index.html
I emailed the company, asking them for more information on the TC bouzouki they have listed (item number 10646). Apparently, there are a few nicks, as well as flaw which they describe as "slight binding separation on back." That makes me a tad bit nervous to purchase it. I asked them to send me some pictures, so I'll check it out.
Also, they have Johnson bouzoukis, selling them for (what seems to me to be) pretty cheap, with the case, as well. I looked at some pictures, and this may sound superficial, but the sunburst style (which I love on my bass) just looks a bit odd to me on the bouzouki. The shape of the body also doesn't seem too traditional. Still, if it sounds good, I suppose I'd consider it. Anyone have thoughts on Johnson bouzoukis?
Finally, I spoke with my local wood instrument repairman, and he said he'd set up a bouzouki for about seventy bucks, which I thought was really cool. We talked for a while about bouzoukis and guitars, and he was really awesome about it.
In any case, thank you all, again, for helping me out. I feel like my bouzouki vision is starting to become a little more focused, and in all honsety, it's because of you kind folks.
Sugarfoot Jack, I'll have to check those links out later; no speakers on this computer. :( But I'm excited to see them!
# Posted on August 31st 2008 by nittab
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
P.S. I hope all my questions aren't annoying; I don't want to overstep my bounds, here. So, again, I really do thank you all for being so generous with your time.
# Posted on August 31st 2008 by nittab
Re: Thinking about learning the bouzouki
Nittab, do yourself a huuuuuge favor and go back to the mandolincafe and do a search in the general mandolin section on Folk Of The Wood. Now I bought my TC bouzouki from them and had no problems and they have changed either or both management and ownership. An awful ot of people had incredible problems with them for quite a while.
I would look at Eldery Instruments in Michigan for online music retail. Very reliable shop and they sell Trinity College and Bill Peterson bouzoukis and octave mandolins.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by Steve L