I own an Irish Pub in the Nashville area. We feature traditional Irish music on Friday and Saturday evenings.
The trios that play are very careful to only play public domain fiddle tunes, but BMI demands that I pay an annual licensing fee, which so far, I have refused to do.
To prove I was 'on the up-and-up' I had the leaders of several of the trios email me play lists...
After reviewing the list, BMI insists that I still need to pay a licensing fee...
They claim that The Lark in the Strand is one of their published works...?
How do I find out which tunes are public domain, and which are published works?
I can't help with how you would find this out , but I can tell you that Lark In The Strand, any of them, are as old as the hills and there is no way you should owe them money. I have come across this rubbish in Italy as well where if a tune is called after someone, then they demand payment on behalf of that person. That the person might be dead seems neither here nor there, that they hadn't composed the tune is also irrelevant, not to mention that even when the named musician is alive, they don't get any money anyway !
The problem is, Pubboy, that someone somewhere has registered their arrangement of 'The Lark on the Strand' with the BMI.
Checking the BMI website I discovered that this tune has been registered by Grey Larsen, the flute player - see http://bit.ly/4AWzhv.
This cheeky sod has also registered 'Banish Misfortune', 'The Banks of Lough Gowna' and numerous other tunes, claiming compositional rights. Someone in his vicinity needs to give him a good harangue.
Pubboy, do you also play canned music over your sound system when no live music is happening? If so, then you need a BMI license for that. Once you've paid for it, that license should cover any music.
So it helps to be *very clear* about what BMI is requiring the license for.
Many, many tunes in the trad Irish repertoire are now under copyright, either as original compositions (all of Paddy O'Brien's, Ed Reavey's, Paddy Fahey's, and Sean Ryan's, for starters) or "as arranged" by some player or band. Altan, for instance, routinely copyrights their arrangements of trad tunes, and so these show up under licensing agreements with BMI and other such agencies.
In short, "public domain" doesn't mean as much as it used to, and hiring a lawyer to fight BMI on this will likely end up costing more than the licensing fee.
It's a real shame, especially with an age-old music such as Irish trad.
BMI likes to be a hammer, and I would equate them to thugs. It's not like they would give any of the money to someone that wrote any of the tunes anyway.
They seem to like to scare the small business pub owner, and we've lost a session site because of them. Why... I'd like to....
I have recently been informed by BMI, that you have publishing rights to a traditional Irish tune called The Lark in the Strand.
If this is true, I'd like to know if you make claim to 'composing' this tune, or just your particular arrangement of it.
I'm having a bit of a problem with BMI concerning the public use of traditional Irish music and it's legal entertainment use, and this particular tune has come into question.
BMI claims I owe them licensing fees for music that is, in some cases, centuries old...
Any insight you have regarding this issue, and further clarifying it would be most helpful.
As an American of proud Irish decent, I would hate to see one of the most cherished features of our rich heritage, reduced to selfish commercialism.
Kind regards,
Darryl McCreary"
: )
I'm really not trying to stir the poop, so to speak, but this is getting out of hand...
Correct me if i'm wrong but i thought at one point the Irish Government declared Irish Music as the property of the people as it was an aural tradition that had such importance to the cultural fabric of Ireland that it couldn't possibly belong to anyone.
I would suggest using the 'special affinity with the US govt. to declare likewise in the states and telling BMI to go feck themselves before their parasite lawyers (and people like Grey Larsen) decide to destroy our traditional at any time of their choosing.
The BMI are full of it, just because someone decided to do an 'arrangement' of a traditional tune and get it published and recognized as 'their arrangement', does not put the historic melody under their rulership. Any monies they collect won't be going back into the tradition but will line their pockets and a few pennies will go to 'composers' who have signed up... To hell with the BMI... 'Thugs' is a good description of them. Small record shops have had to routinely silence any play unless they pay to do so. Some of this 'protection' smacks of the likes of organized crime...
maybe you could find an online index for O'Neill's or some other venerable source (http://www.oldmusicproject.com/oneils1.html) and make sure you only submit tune names from that list?
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Sincerely,
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I don't know anything at all about Grey Larsen's dealings with BMI, but it is *possible* that his publisher or recording label registered with BMI for him, without his knowledge or fuill understanding of the ramifications. Seems unlikely, but it also strikes me as unlikely that Mr. Larsen would do anything to limit the continued playing and dissemination of old, public domain trad tunes.
Will be interesting to see his reply, if he makes one.
Timing couldn't be any worse either. Had lunch at a lovely Mexican restaraunt around the corner from the office here, plus some afternoon coffee. I wonder what Mr. Clenched thinks about that?
What a day, I just want to relax and play some tunes, let's see, what shall I play... [starts fiddling]
"KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK! Attention! This is the BMI! Put the fiddle down and come out with your hands up!"
Easy Will, you made me laugh so hard that I almost violated brochure #2.
airport with the quick answer! Or, "It's just one I wrote myself, 'The Humours of My Posterior' thoughtfully dedicated to a Mr. Clenched, you know him, fellas?"
When the BMI rep asks who O'McGill.... is, you reply, "Ah sure, old Paddy, rest in peace. Penned a whole turf rack full of grand, brilliant tunes. Used to live just down the street. Never gave names to any of his tunes, and never recorded them either. Just played them here over the years, and we all learned them, just like that. He's been gone three years now--ticker finally gave out at 93, y'know. No kin--he never married. But his tunes live on, eh?"
I HATE it when the generously-named "Performers' Rights Organizations" like BMI and ASCAP decide to flex their muscles to try to make people stop playing their own music. If they had it their way, money would change hands (leaving them a cut) anytime anybody played a note.
I've been thrown out of an otherwise empty bar in some rural town after a couple friends and I pulled out fiddles on our own accord. The bar owner had apparently been recently sued by a PRO, and was terrified of getting nailed again. Thanks, BMI.
But as much as I detest ASCAP & BMI's handling of small venues like yours (and believe me, I would love to leave angry skunks in the underwear drawers of the people who do this), I think it's much safer for you to just bite the bullet and pay up. Then you can have whatever sort of music you want, and nobody will bother you.
Otherwise, they'll send a lawyer over to your establishment to listen to the session and wait for somebody to make the mistake of playing a copyrighted tune (even if by accident). If they catch even one Paddy O'Brien, Ed Reavy, or Liz Carroll tune, or even if someone happens to play a set of old traditional tunes in an order that somebody like Grey Larsen recorded (that's the "arrangement"), they'll bring the lawsuit hammer down on you HARD... on the order of tens of thousands of dollars.
quote: "$30,000 for each copyrighted song performed without a license, and up to $150,000 if the infringement is willful, plus attorney's fees" (though I don't know where he got those numbers)
There have been cases of people getting around these fees (ask Roger Landes, the bouzouki player out in Arizona[1]), but it's a tightrope walk over a crocodile pit during a hurricane (and BMI's lawyers are the crocodiles). Additionally, since you're in Nashville, where the music industry (and the population of industry schills) is so huge, I would imagine your pub might look to them like a limping wildebeest wading through the crocs' breeding grounds. "Oh look! There's one we might be able to sue!"
The general sense I get is that these reptiles are not interested in making the Public Domain distinction. Instead, they'd prefer that the burden of proof (=legal $$$) is on you. In fact, they would rather have you pay the fee, and they are perfectly happy to intimidate you into doing so. Unfortunately, like any stereotypical mafia protection racket, they'll settle for making an example of you if you don't, and the laws are very much in their favor.
Of course, this is all in the name of "the musicians and composers", none of whom (at least in the Irish Trad side) are likely to see a dime worth of benefit from any of this strong-arming.
Will, with all the Morris dancers, lawyers, spies and high-tech monitoring equipment, it's getting awfully crowded up there in Mianus, let alone Feakle. (nice one Gary)
Georgi has a good point:
'I would imagine your pub might look to them like a limping wildebeest wading through the crocs' breeding grounds. "Oh look! There's one we might be able to sue!"'
It is PUBBOY's pub. Probably best to use caution, bro, especially considering your locality, like Georgi says.
The problem is that in a country which believes in the fundamental maxim of "innocent until proven guilty", somehow ASCAP and BMI have reversed that, and the onus is upon the establishment and performers to prove their innocence. Crazy!
I am sorry for any confusion on this question. I definitely did not compose this tune, and as far as I know it is in the public domain. We registered an arrangement of the tune that we recorded many years ago, but as I presume that you have your own arrangement, please feel free to proceed freely!
take any trad piece, no one knows who wrote it, the composer long since became part of a peat brickett.
however, its been recorded 100s of times.
dozens of those recordings will be slightly, or very, different to the accepted standard original version (if there is one?) that was written so long ago.
any version that strays from the original is an arrangement, has some new creativity in it (even if its crap) and as such has new copyright etc attached to it.
arrangement royalties are low compared to composer royalties, but they exist, and have to be collected, hence the license issue.
as has been said here before, the only sensible response to this is for anyone who thinks he has a novel working of tune, to register it as an arrangement.
music licencing is a real pain, but music has value, and its fair that the creative amongst us get a slice out of it.
to the original poster... on the one hand you could tell your musicians to play the standard non cop versions, and tell to the bmi, but neither will know what the standard version is. the fact is the musicians are probably playing an arrangement even if its just their own arrangement, which is still copyright
on the other hand, people are coming to your pub to hear irish music, instead of going to the pub down the road, so you are making money out of the music.
i think its fair some of it goes back into the pool for all those tortured composers out there.
I apologise for my subterfuge. I do not know you and in light of your perfectly reasonable and prompt reply I thought it only decent to come clean. There is a bit of a stink going on at thesession.org, Maybe you should chime in.
its worth pointing out that the bmi site doesnt seem to distinguish between composer and arranger (at least in the links ive followed from this thread); im sure grey didnt do anything wrong.
whilst im here again... trad music must be a tricky area for bmi etc.
if you take a mozart piece, he is well out of copyright, but at some point he actually wrote it all down;
he didnt just *lilt* the nutcracker suite at the orchestra and then they copied it; there is a record of it, which is considered the standard; this is what new arrangements are judged against.
with trad, i bet there is no accepted standard for many tunes, its more of a "it sort of goes like this" sitiation,
so if there is no standard rendition, what are arrangemeents judged against...
There was a young Mitchell named Joni,
Who signed a record deal with Sony,
But when she read the fine-print,
she said "Holy S**T!!,
All proceeds go to Paddy Maloney"
I thank Michael for letting me know of this discussion. This is surely a very sticky mess. I was not aware of these problems, and it has never been my intention to impede anyone who plays or records traditional tunes or who runs an establishment where traditional tunes are enjoyed. Quite the contrary. I will get in touch with BMI promptly and see what I can find out. If it will help, I will see if I can un-register arrangements that include traditional tunes which I had registered in the past.
I feel it is unfortunate that some of the folks who have posted have been mean-spirited, presuming they know the intentions of others, without asking them to speak for themselves.
I am sorry for any confusion on this question. I
definitely did not compose this tune, and as far
as I know it is in the public domain. I
registered an arrangement of the tune that I
recorded some years ago, but as I presume that
you have your own arrangement, please feel free
to proceed freely as far as I am concerned.
I think I need to confer with BMI myself on this
issue. As far as I understand and intend, I
registered my arrangement only, and that should
not impede anyone else who makes their own
arrangement of a publc domain work.
I hope this helps!
Best wishes,
Grey"
I have to say that this fellow has gone above and beyond here.
Thanks for the input everyone!
I think I'll tell them to 'stick it!' tomorrow... ; )
We have a similar situation in the graphics arts world of "paper marbling". That's the fancy paper you might see on the covers or inside on the endpaper of old leather bound books, expecially from the Victorian period though the art is at least 1000 years older. Many will be familiar with the feathery or spotted or wavy designs, deep colors.
There are many patterns, and recreating these papers/designs for book restorers has been my main livlihood for 30+ years. We have a similar dilemma in that the patterns are certainly public domain, yet we can copyright each and every piece of our "marbled art work" as our interpretation of a public domain design. All are a little different anyway, as any tune would be, played from one musician to the next. In no way would I ever imagine I own an historic pattern that has been around for centuries.
The US Copyright Office certainly understands the difference between creation of a design and interpretation of a design, so I don't get why BMI has such difficulty, or are the just bullies or ignorant?
I think maybe it's ignorance, a bunch of tunes comes in for registration and they likely don't, but ought to have a box that can be checked as to whether this is PD or original material. They likely just register everything as original. They need to change that if this is the case.
Things need to be explained to those ignorant of the difference, I do a fair amount of licensing my artwork for package design, some CD/DVD backgrounds, magazine ad backgrounds, brochures etc. I do spell out in my contracts that this does not mean, should the person pick a Bouquet pattern, that they now are the owner of that design and all who use it from then on need to get permission and pay them a fee.
In the meanwhile I will be sure to listen out for anyone playing any of the handful of tunes I have written. I wonder if I did register with BMI or ASCAP if I would ever see a cent of any fees they collected "on my behalf".
So that's what I'd tell them.... go create categories for interpretation/arrangement of a PD tune and for original tunes. Then come back and check on your pub.
Do any of these agents they send around actually know any Irish Tune names, for Heaven's sake, we have trouble enough remembering tunes names ourselves and often don agree on them. And then they have to cross reference them to the people who allegedly wrote them???? Where does the money go, I'd like to know that too, or are they acting like the Mafia, going around to pubs collecting money for their coffers?
BMI is NOT the problem. The problem is that butthead is claiming rights to public domain tunes. The weird thing (to me) is that Mr Butthead thinks he's going to make some change off the rights to an ITM tune. LOL! I sure hope he doesn't spend all of that $5.43 BMI check in one place....
I guess it's time for some dedicated soul to make sure that BMI and ASCAP know about ITM. Any volunteers??
The reason Grey published his 'arrangement' is so that when his version (CD) is played on the air, he can recoup some of his some of his recording costs.
He isn't taking credit for 'composing' the music, only rearranging it.
I don't see a problem with that, and what he said in his post is very positive.
"Hhmmm... that's not really cool.
The reason Grey published his 'arrangement' is so that when his version (CD) is played on the air, he can recoup some of his some of his recording costs.
He isn't taking credit for 'composing' the music, only rearranging it."
OK. So you're giving us a line of BS about the fees? I'm trying to track here... My band has done some recording of ITM tunes. We get performance but not publishing rights to the tune--because the tune is in the public domain. If you play Mr Grey's version, BMI can get you for performance fees for Mr Grey's rendition...
So what's the point of this thread. PUBBOY? You seem to be arguing against yourself.
The players at my Pub aren't playing Grey Larsen's ARRANGEMENT.
He has his arrangement published so that he can make some money when his unique version is played on the radio, etc.
He's not claiming to be the original composer of The Lark in the Strand, as BMI continues to insist. BMI is completely confused about what ITM is.
BMI is after me for a general licensing agreement, but the only kind of live music I allow to be played is public domain, ITM.
They give this impression that they 'own music' in general, and by the very fact that musicians play in my Pub I owe them money... hog-wash...
My point is, if I'm not using their product (licensed music) then I can't, and won't, be bullied into paying for it.
It would be one thing if the band showed up and said, 'tonight we are playing Grey Larsen's arrangements of ITM ..."
Then I would owe him (BMI) some money.
In fact I don't charge a cover for people to listen to music, nor do I require them to purchase food or drink. I simply want to have an environment for the Irish arts to be expressed. Period.
In addition to that, during the warmer months, the band plays outdoors on the sidewalk...
Why do you get 'performance rights' to Public Domain music?
That makes no sense to me...
First of all, good on Grey for chiming in, much appreciated.
The only snag here is what gw is getting at. The door is open if a lawyer can make a case that anyone playing the tune is playing the version that is copyrighted. The only real beef will be if it gets recorded and sold as the exact arrangement, I would wager, otherwise, nobody cares. If another arrangement gets sold that is his and not yours, then a lawyer can jump all over that and sink their fangs into it.
I've had this problem in the past. In the correspondence that you've received from BMI, you may notice that the letters are signed, usually, by "Marketing Representatives". In my case, I sent them a letter with a play list of PD tunes and told them to have their legal department notify me if I wasn't in compliance. I never heard from them again, because the lawyers know that they have no case on PD tunes or arrangements, but the marketing folks know it's an easy way to make some cash.
(Remember, as a presenter, that "Happy Birthday", "Wild Irish Rose" , "Danny Boy" and a lot of the modern pub songs are have copyright restrictions (since they were performed in movies and on radio) - you're safer with instrumental groups playing tunes with obscure or "newly adapted" names.
PS - as you probably know, most pubs pay ASCAP/BMI Licensing fees as a part of their business expenses. Only record stores or retailers who sell music are exempt. If you want to get around the fees - start selling CDs of Trad music - God knows there needs to be more places to sell and buy the stuff. Good Luck!
If you have trouble with your BMI*; make an appointment to see your dietitian! I imagine running a pub could cause your weight to creep up or perhaps all the worry is causing you to lose it.
This whole thread has me further disappointed at the state of justice and fairplay in this world, the musical part anyway.
I shall rant:
I think Llig hit the nail on the head with his mention of having the balls to stand up for something, and I mean all of us, not just the poor pubowners.
As a man merely of Irish descent, I can only try to imagine what the feelings of any natives of Ireland must be, seeing part of their heritage bought and sold and pimped and prostituted this way. So why is this apparently tolerated? It goes on, there must be at least the implication of approval in the community, right?
I can come up with no answer that does not reflect some gutlessness of obliviousness regarding right and wrong, an attitude of "not my problem", "don't get involved", "I have a business to run", etc etc etc.
Do not get me wrong - I am not minimizing the needs of a man or woman who has to protect his/her business/income, but where the hell do you draw the line?
But who really cares? And will take concrete action?
Have BMI and their like have found a tolerant environment for this side of their "business"?
I also wonder what to think of any artists or their families, would think of what is apparently being done in their names?
Some names cited above as possible examples (the likes of a Paddy O'Brien, an Ed Reavy, or a Liz Carroll, etc,) ?
Would they give a damn about being associated with the folks that sold their souls for the copyrights?
Or do they just heave a sigh on the way to the bank, or their next paid gig?
We heard from Grey Larsen.
Will anyone else speak up about this situation?
I wish to understand how what I am reading here can possibly be defended.
My two cents and ramblings, 90% emotional I admit.
BMI has to be a bunch of hard cases because they are looking out for musicians who would be getting screwed over without them.
I have friends that get checks from BMI every year for the radio play they get all over the world. They wouldn't even know their music was on the radio in Tokyo or something if it wasn't for BMI keeping track of it all.
So yes, our culture has been repackaged and sold back to us by the Disney Corporation and TIme Warner, but that's what happens when the guys in suits get the idea they can make a buck off of somebody else. Personally, I lay the blame squarely on the doorstep of Peter Frampton, but I digress...
After 30 years of playing in night clubs, I can truly say that there is an ocean of difference between the art of music and the music business.
Each of us as performers and participants, and even as listeners, have to reconcile the art of music with modern age capitalism.
Remember what Our Lord said when told the people to "give to Ceasar what is Ceasars"
the less you mix money with your music, the less of the music business you have to deal with. So there's a blessing in being completely broke, having no gigs comming up, yet still owning a tin whistle
"Owning a tin whistle"? A "real traditional musician™" would borrow one. Didn't many families keep a fiddle or a concertina in the house for the occasions when a traveling musician would drop in for a visit?
This is Traditional music. If you're trying to make a buck from Traditional music you need to have your head checked.
If you want to make money you need to be an entertainer, not an artist.
Traditional music is a folk art. It's not supposed to be a product consumed for a profit.
If people want to go make money with music they need to tour their behinds off entertaining people, not making folk art.
I think that's what so upsetting to a lot of folks. Many of us freely give our time, skill and effort to The Music and The Tradition and could not care less about getting a single dime in compensation. We do it because we love it and we want to share it. We love being a part of it and want to pass it on. To us, it's art, not a product to go make a buck from.
So, when people try to do that, make profits from a beloved folk art form, it's naturally upsetting to those of us that don't, and simply give freely of the thing that we love.
...and if anyone has an issue with that they are free to go Morris dancing in Mianus. Thank you.
It is nice to see truly great musicians be able to make a living being an artist, I will admit that, however the ones that earn the most respect from us are those that do not compromise their art and display a geniune love for the music.
The IMRO site clearly states that an "arrangement" is as equal is fiscal reward as a "composition". This is one of the first lessons that many of the graduatres from uni trad courses are taught. All theses associations are affiliated and every time somebody anywhere in the world plays or is estimated to have played "gan ainm" the money goes into the pot and the registered artists of "gan ainm" get a return. A more transparent disclosure of the game should be available from the organisers of FACE http://www.fraynework.com/face/face/index.html
who have made no bones about expressing disdain for what is a very distasteful pursuit, particularly as it pertains to traditional Irish music and the hundreds of elderly practitioners who have never received a red cent despite their involvement as composers and arrangers. It pretty much amounts to theft as far as I am concerned never mind CCE's deal with IMRO regarding performance fees in every aspect which amounts to nothing less than wholesale looting.
When music is in the public domain, like it or not, it's fair game. But any musician or group who intends to use a tune should makes sure it is indeed in the public domain or plan on compensating where compensation is due.
Typical wording on an album, for example, for publishing purposes is:
*All Music and Lyrics by MYBand except "The Public Domain Tune" based on a traditional reel.*
If say a TV show uses our arrangement of "The Public Domain Tune" from our self-published album then MyBand gets publishing and performance fees (based on a contract with the TV company) for the use of our version of the tune. If MyBand is under contract with a record company (hopefully a good, honest one ), then the record company would typically get the publishing half of the fees... Once the show has aired the TV company must then file a "play log" with BMI or ASCAP (depending on which one MyBand is registered with) to determine royalties for the use. BMI and ASCAP negotiate rates for usage and deliver royalties to the artists based on those rates...
"I have friends that get checks from BMI every year for the radio play they get all over the world. They wouldn't even know their music was on the radio in Tokyo or something if it wasn't for BMI keeping track of it all..."
That's exactly correct. Tiny sums though they may be
"If you want to make money you need to be an entertainer, not an artist..."
Do you listen to any recorded music other than field recordings? If so, do you enjoy it? Is any of it "Folk Art" music? Do you think the music just magically shows up on the CD?... It had to go through some process to get there, and at some expense. Not to mention all the years of practice the musicians put in to be confident and competent enough to record the music. So... if they're fortunate to make a little return off of their efforts they are no longer artists? What a bunch of hooey!
The information contained in the database has been provided to BMI from a variety of sources, and BMI makes no warranties or representations whatsoever with respect to its accuracy. In some cases, the writer or publisher information shown may not reflect actual copyright ownership of a work as registered with the U.S. Copyright Office. In addition, writers or publishers for whom BMI does not license a work are not listed. Any use of this information for purposes other than to determine what musical compositions are contained in the BMI repertoire through the last update is solely at the risk of the user. Our database displays the names of recording artists that we have verified with independent, recognized industry sources.
A couple of points re the above, just a query
Q How can they present to anyone with an alleged breach of `copyright` if they can't verify the accuracy of the information contained within the database, and further, to vehemently absolve themselves of any responsibility or liability should one query the accuracy or errors that may be found.
SWFL, I included the elipsis at the end of the bit I quoted from your post to include the sentiment of the your entire post. You concluded that post with this:
"I think that's what so upsetting to a lot of folks. Many of us freely give our time, skill and effort to The Music and The Tradition and could not care less about getting a single dime in compensation. We do it because we love it and we want to share it. We love being a part of it and want to pass it on. To us, it's art, not a product to go make a buck from.
So, when people try to do that, make profits from a beloved folk art form, it's naturally upsetting to those of us that don't, and simply give freely of the thing that we love."
To me this is ludicrous. Not that some people devote their lives solely to "The Tradition" and "The Music," but that if they make that choice then they are somehow assumed to be more respectful of the "beloved art form." There are obviously plenty of fine ITM players who have recorded anywhere from slightly to significantly interpretive versions of the tunes. And they may even make a little money for their efforts. Does this mean they're any less respectful of the Tradition? If you believe this then you must think the Chieftains are the Devil incarnate--LOL!
I have no legal background, and I have not had any direct BMI conflicts.
But I was wondering if anyone could answer this:
Don't many tunes go by different names? Isn't the confusion on BMI's part with regard to the tune names? By that I mean... if a session claims it is playing "Cooley's" - doesn't BMI just look to see if "Cooley's" is on the list?
Why couldn't a session provide an "official" play list with "new" names for the tunes? Wouldn't a BMI spy have to actually recognize the tunes themselves and somehow prove that someone else had copyrighted them?
I'm sure there is a catch here... but why wouldn't this work?
the funny part is that there are bands that play "cover" songs in bars all over the world every day.
I never even thought there was a problem with that until one night when BMI walked into a club I was playing while we were in the middle of "Black Magic Woman"
They basically made us stop and then took it out on the club owner. 30 years of playing clubs and that was the only time I ever even heard of that hapening to somebody. Lucky me, eh?
So I would think that BMI would have to know about the session and actually come by and try and bust it, but if they go to all that trouble, you can bet they will make trouble for the owner of the place regardless.
Just like what they are doing with PUBBOY there in Nashville.
FWIW, I apologize to Mr Grey for my "Butthead" remark. I hadn't read the thread thoroughly before firmly inserting foot in mouth.
Also, I don't make it a habit of touting the virtues of BMI. I know there are "issues"--the context of this thread is one such problem. But there is an obvious advantage (IMHO) to having an agency set rates and guidelines for procuring artist royalties.
That said, my personal opinion is that small "Mom and Pop" establishments like PUBBOY's should not be harassed by the likes of BMI no matter what music they play. If, on the other hand, it's "The Pure Drop Cafe" and there's one in every city packed every night with hundreds of Guinness swilling ITM lovers...
If you look at the comments on http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display.php/3052 (William Winter's Quantocks Tune Book) you will see that it is a modern publication of an early 19th-century working musician's manuscript tune book that had been lost for about 150 years. Preparing and editing nearly 500 tunes from an old manuscript that is not easy to read and can be ambiguous, researching the music for possible sources, finding out what is known about William Winter and the music-making of his area in the West Country in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, making arrangements for publication, AND getting together a group of musicians to make a CD to go with the book, is not a job for the faint-hearted and takes considerable time and effort (I know the editor). Although the tunes in Winter's manuscript have no copyright in themselves today – and probably didn't in his day, either – the editorial preparation and the process of publication today inevitably attract all sorts of copyright in the printed Tune Book of 2008. Which is as it should be – publishing music isn't cheap.
Unusually, Halsway Manor, the publishers, have relaxed the copyright restrictions usually associated with printed music to the extent that, "Pages may be photocopied by the purchaser or by the purchaser's group, band, or school for use in music workshops or live performances by that group, band, or school".
Can't believe that Danny Boy is copyrighted - surely, the melody of the Derry Air goes well back in time.
Mind you, I sometimes pity people who are called Harry Potter etc., with some multi media, multi national corporation owning copyright over and trademarking your personal identity.
Another question, if I write a new tune, can I call it The Lark in the Strand or the name off limits
Glenn's question above makes me wonder how BMI would handle the situation in a place like Co Donegal where a significant number of tunes have been passed on by ear for hundreds of years, have never been committed to writing or print, and, mostly, have no names.
A couple of weeks ago I attended a number of fiddle workshops in Kilcar, Co Donegal, where we were taught about 20 tunes. The tutor, a very respected and experienced Donegal fiddler, admitted in the case of eight of those tunes that he didn't know their names!
Glenn's point is exactly why I suggested (way above in this thread) just making up names, either sarcastically, or simply calling every tune "O'Reilly's" or some such and leaving it at that. BMI would never know the difference. As long as the name is preposterous enough to NOT appear in BMI's catalogue, they won't sick their hounds on you.
The lyrics of “Danny Boy” were writtten by Frederick Edward Weatherly (1848-1929), an Englishman. Since literary copyright for a published work in the UK extends 70 years after the death of the author, I would expect copyright in these lyrics to have expired by now.
While I'm about it, “Happy Birthday To You” is still in copyright and is owned by Warner, who make a sizeable sum in royalties every year and doubtless wish that fortunate situation to continue. You have been warned!
This kind of greed driven lack of perspective (by the PROs) is also demonstrated in the way they go after small churches and youth camps and the like about thier worship music. It becomes a legal and logistical headache to even have a simple campfire sing-along. We have lost our freaking minds in this country!
"It is nice to see truly great musicians be able to make a living being an artist, I will admit that, however the ones that earn the most respect from us are those that do not compromise their art and display a geniune love for the music."
I didn't want to have to spell it out, like you're doing, I was hoping folks kind of understood who I was talking about.
...and perhaps it's overly defensive on my part, but I've gotten used to people looking at me like I have no clue or there's something wrong, simply because I don't care to have a flashy website with glamour photos and CDs to hawk, and would rather anchor a session than hire out for gigs.
So, when it's not the writer of a tune with a copyright on it, or a great one with an arrangement, or what have you, and in particular, if it's going to effect people playing the tune in sessions, not just Joe and the Shmoes trying to pimp a compact disc or an MP3, and it's going to effect pubs and publicans that support sessions, then I think that's a problem, a big one.
But, as usual, I'm over-reacting, because it's not that bad yet, well, it is for PUBBOY.
I understand what you're getting at except I keep getting stuck at the somewhat derogatory asides about musicians who you seem to regard as unworthy of "The Music." ("Truly great..." as opposed to what--damn good? pretty good? OK?; "flashy", "glamor", "hawk", "pimp"...) This is my biggest problem with hardcore trad folks--the narrow-mindedness. Play the music, and play it well; preserve the tradition and keep the flame; and by all means enjoy what you prefer, but don't demean other musicians who choose to approach it differently.
Obviously, PUBBOY has run up against a behemoth (I'm curious how much he's being asked to pay). Some responders to this thread have given some possible solutions. Mr Grey has said he would contact BMI. After reading the following, I would probably just pay up and move on...
Then we're having a shared over-sensitive moment, if you're getting stuck on it. I'm not trying to demean anyone, but I see no need to copyright arrangements of traditional tunes. My main concern here is corporations messing with sessions and publicans, and if vanity is assisting it, then I have a problem with that.
AARGH! "Vanity?" OK. The straight dope from your pal gw...
My wife, Maggie, is a rather amazing composer/arranger. In 2003, after a long stint with another group, she decided to put together a large band for the sole purpose of recording of a batch of her original tunes. We decided to call the group "The Mad Maggies". Because of the name, we thought it would be fun to include a traditional tune with "Maggie" in the title. ("Fun" is the operative word.) ITM was not a criteria, but because we share a love of The Music we had several ITM "Maggies" on the list. Ultimately, we decided on "Sleepy Maggie." FTR, we're an 8 piece band. At the time our horn lineup was trumpet, trombone, tuba, clarinet/sax. The rest of the band is bass, drums, guitar (yours truly) and Maggie on accordion/vocals. Her arrangement of "Sleepy Maggie" was obviously not going to be even remotely "traditional" with that group of instruments. The horns do the first AA BB of the tune--need I say more? She coyrighted the arrangement along with the original compositions. Our version got used (almost in it's entirety) in the pilot of a TV show, and because the arrangement of the tune was under copyright we got both publishing and performance rights in our contract with NBC. And that greatly helped us carry on as a band--a band that plays 80% original music with the odd "cover" tune thrown in to fill in the sets. We didn't make a ton of money off the deal, but it was enough to cover our out of pocket expenses for the CD with a few bucks leftover for the band members. On our second CD we used "Are Ye Sleepin' Maggie." We're working on a third, but have yet to choose a "Maggie" tune. Does any of this mean we're greedy of vain? I think not. BTW, both Mags and I are in our mid 50s. Our youngest band member is 35 and has two young children. That means we can't rely much on the "eye candy" factor or rouse a large hall of drunk 20 somethings like the Dropkick Murphys (though we could give them a run for their money ). So we do it our own way. And if you or anyone has a problem with that, I raise my Utilikilt in your general direction
Obviously, the public domain problem is a glitch in copyright law that ASCAP and BMI are exploiting. I believe unique arrangement of public domain tunes should be copyrightable, but that that the copyright ONLY applies to that particular arrangement. It's kind of a sticky wicket, but I'm holding on to it anyway...
I greatly appreciated reading everyones thoughts above on this issue, and mostly very civilized in general about a hot issue. Nate was on-target I thought with "render unto Caesar" , which about sums up my attitude.
Professional composing and performing are things I appreciate and respect. Wherever possible, I personally ask permission of artists before directly covering their works (for fun OR for profit). They created it, they own it, and they should have certain rights to it, which is merely fair and logical.
However, I maintain the belief that there are some things in this world that do belong to all of us, and I think that is at the core of some of what I have read above as well.
Ornamentation and personal interpretation really should be free to all, and if someone came up to me and said, "You cannot play it that way, Donal Lunny did it that way first, and he owns the rights," I might take it wrongly. But IMHO that is a part of what we are talking about here, if someone can manage to even copyright most of the major variations of standard tunes.
Sound silly? I am not sure.
Somewhere out there, there is someone with too much time on his hands, working it out right now.
Wounded Hussar... not sure about BMI etc. but in the copyright rules, titles are not copyrightable. Nor is color believe it or not, for artwork. That has led some to take our artwork and color alter and pretend it's theirs...but we have other ways of recognizing things.
Think about books with the same title, not a problem as far as copyright. In art, if you are registered slight variations from the original are also covered.
Maybe it would be saner to have the legalities and licensing left to where someone wants to record someone else's composition, or put it in print. I could understand that. You wouldn't want someone doing a CD with four or five of your original tunes on it, and selling it, any more than if you had written a book, that someone lifts chapters to put in their own book, even with re-wording it slightly.
I have written numerous books and don't mind one bit if people would xerox parts for a class, or would want to get up and publicly read a part of a book, even if they were a paid public speaker, but would draw the line at them putting it out there in another book under their own name without permission and/or licensing fees or royalties.
To have, for example, some agency scouting out all the paper marbling workshops and classes in the country to make sure the teacher was not reading the students parts of my books, or making sure they didn't xerox a few pages they thought helpful, that would be outrageous. Seems that is what BMI etc. are doing on the music. The music police.
Honestly, the handful of tunes I have written, I'd be pleased as could be if people thought them good enough to play in their local sessions! If someone lifted one for a CD (especially with no credit given) I'd be a bit annoyed. I am not registered with any agency but the CD is copyright. Usually from what I understand, most people who are asked if their tune can be used, they say, sure, go ahead, give me credit though. On my own CD there are mostly trad tunes, and they are my own arrangements but I don't own the tune and never would presume to. Some people may think otherwise though, who knows.
When we had to do this while playing at a local council venue in the UK, we simply gave made-up tune names with ourselves as the composers.
Since no one from the UK equivalent of the BMI has ever come looking for me to pay me the royalties for such tunes as "The Belhaven Beer Mat", I must assume that they have no intention of paying out.
PUBBOY's problem is that he has been scrupulously honest with the BMI when they asked for tune names, even though they are not being honest with him. Such a situation is made for exploitation.
I wish you guys all the luck in the world. We have the same trouble in the UK with a gang of thugs who call themselves "The Performing Rights Society". They are properly an organisation who can do valuable work making sure that Sir Paul gets his cut from perfomances of The Mull of Kintyre, but can't tell the very real difference (in law and in spirit) between that and "Father O'Flynn" or "Goathland Square Eight". The result is that in practice, they are a bunch of useless (supply your chosen descriptive noun here). Fortunately they are mostly incompetent, but that doesn't eliminate their pure annoyance value. At least you don't have a government to deal with who believe that TM needs legislation to actively discourage it, like we do!
There ..... I feel so much better now, I think I'll have a quiet lie down ............... ... .
Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I'm new to the forum, and I have a question...
I own an Irish Pub in the Nashville area. We feature traditional Irish music on Friday and Saturday evenings.
The trios that play are very careful to only play public domain fiddle tunes, but BMI demands that I pay an annual licensing fee, which so far, I have refused to do.
To prove I was 'on the up-and-up' I had the leaders of several of the trios email me play lists...
After reviewing the list, BMI insists that I still need to pay a licensing fee...
They claim that The Lark in the Strand is one of their published works...?
How do I find out which tunes are public domain, and which are published works?
Thanks in advance, PUBBOY
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by PUBBOY
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I can't help with how you would find this out , but I can tell you that Lark In The Strand, any of them, are as old as the hills and there is no way you should owe them money. I have come across this rubbish in Italy as well where if a tune is called after someone, then they demand payment on behalf of that person. That the person might be dead seems neither here nor there, that they hadn't composed the tune is also irrelevant, not to mention that even when the named musician is alive, they don't get any money anyway !
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Well that is encouraging.
Are all of the 'tunes' listed on this site PD?
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by PUBBOY
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
The problem is, Pubboy, that someone somewhere has registered their arrangement of 'The Lark on the Strand' with the BMI.
Checking the BMI website I discovered that this tune has been registered by Grey Larsen, the flute player - see http://bit.ly/4AWzhv.
This cheeky sod has also registered 'Banish Misfortune', 'The Banks of Lough Gowna' and numerous other tunes, claiming compositional rights. Someone in his vicinity needs to give him a good harangue.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Pubboy, do you also play canned music over your sound system when no live music is happening? If so, then you need a BMI license for that. Once you've paid for it, that license should cover any music.
So it helps to be *very clear* about what BMI is requiring the license for.
Many, many tunes in the trad Irish repertoire are now under copyright, either as original compositions (all of Paddy O'Brien's, Ed Reavey's, Paddy Fahey's, and Sean Ryan's, for starters) or "as arranged" by some player or band. Altan, for instance, routinely copyrights their arrangements of trad tunes, and so these show up under licensing agreements with BMI and other such agencies.
In short, "public domain" doesn't mean as much as it used to, and hiring a lawyer to fight BMI on this will likely end up costing more than the licensing fee.
It's a real shame, especially with an age-old music such as Irish trad.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
If you wish to put in a complaint to Mr. Larsen regarding this situation, you can reach him here -
http://www.greylarsen.com/
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
BMI likes to be a hammer, and I would equate them to thugs. It's not like they would give any of the money to someone that wrote any of the tunes anyway.
They seem to like to scare the small business pub owner, and we've lost a session site because of them. Why... I'd like to....
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by nofrets
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Interestingly, "Wind that Shakes the Barley" is listed as belonging to Mr Larsen AND as being a traditional tune: http://tinyurl.com/6lxrqu
Funny old world.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Robert Jones
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
We have a commercial SIRIUS satellite account.
Other than that, the only other music we use is the trad. irish fiddle tunes...
So far they haven't threatened legal action, but I fighting tooth and nail...
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by PUBBOY
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I've just sent an e-mail to Grey Larson (tee hee):
Hi Grey
Is it true that you have registered the tune "Banish Misfortune" claiming compositional rights?
I have recently recorded the tune on a commercial album and would love to reimburse you what ever money I owe. Credit where credit's due eh?
Thanks
Michael Gill
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
He's also registered wise maid, fig for a kiss, garrett barry's and a whole bunch of others:
http://repertoire.bmi.com/writer.asp?blnWriter=True&blnPublisher=True&blnArtist=True&page=1&fromrow=1&torow=25&querytype=WriterID&cae=52464589&affiliation=BMI&keyid=194712&keyname=LARSEN%20GREY%20EVEN
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by airport
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
NICE!
I'm sending him an email as well... : )
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by PUBBOY
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
It's probably not his fault entirely - look how many big names supposedly own gan ainm
http://repertoire.bmi.com/TitleSearch.asp?querytype=WorkName&page=1&fromrow=1&torow=25&keyname=gan%20ainm&blnWriter=True&blnPublisher=True&blnArtist=False&blnAltTitles=False
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by airport
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Here is my open letter to Mr. Larsen:
"Dear Mr. Larsen,
I have recently been informed by BMI, that you have publishing rights to a traditional Irish tune called The Lark in the Strand.
If this is true, I'd like to know if you make claim to 'composing' this tune, or just your particular arrangement of it.
I'm having a bit of a problem with BMI concerning the public use of traditional Irish music and it's legal entertainment use, and this particular tune has come into question.
BMI claims I owe them licensing fees for music that is, in some cases, centuries old...
Any insight you have regarding this issue, and further clarifying it would be most helpful.
As an American of proud Irish decent, I would hate to see one of the most cherished features of our rich heritage, reduced to selfish commercialism.
Kind regards,
Darryl McCreary"
: )
I'm really not trying to stir the poop, so to speak, but this is getting out of hand...
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by PUBBOY
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Correct me if i'm wrong but i thought at one point the Irish Government declared Irish Music as the property of the people as it was an aural tradition that had such importance to the cultural fabric of Ireland that it couldn't possibly belong to anyone.
I would suggest using the 'special affinity with the US govt. to declare likewise in the states and telling BMI to go feck themselves before their parasite lawyers (and people like Grey Larsen) decide to destroy our traditional at any time of their choosing.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by jfiddlerh
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I was also informed by BMI that they work in coordination with a licensing agency in Ireland, and they deal with 'traditional music.'
Is that BS, or does anyone have any information regarding this?
In light of what jfidderh posted, it smells fishy to me...
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by PUBBOY
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Pubboy, If you hve that balls for it, I'd say dig yuour heels in and let the BMI try to close you down. There is no way they could win.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
duh, have, your
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Hey PUBBOY, next time, have the musicians make up new names for all their tunes, or, simply send BMI a list that says "Gan Aimn" like 500 times.
Honestly, corporations could screw up a decent bowel movement.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
The BMI are full of it, just because someone decided to do an 'arrangement' of a traditional tune and get it published and recognized as 'their arrangement', does not put the historic melody under their rulership. Any monies they collect won't be going back into the tradition but will line their pockets and a few pennies will go to 'composers' who have signed up... To hell with the BMI... 'Thugs' is a good description of them. Small record shops have had to routinely silence any play unless they pay to do so. Some of this 'protection' smacks of the likes of organized crime...
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
maybe you could find an online index for O'Neill's or some other venerable source (http://www.oldmusicproject.com/oneils1.html) and make sure you only submit tune names from that list?
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by airport
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Dear SWFL Fiddler:
Be advised that your personal permit for a daily bowel movement has hereby been rescinded pending further notice. Please refrain from any further bowel movements (including but not limited to pushing and/or straining, passage of particulate, liquid, or gaseous matter, and rectal flexing).
Noncompliance will result in a fine of not less than $500 per infraction, and possible deodorizing and cleaning fees deducted directly from your bank account.
If you have any questions, please refer to our brochure #2, "Maintaining a Cheerful Pucker" ($5 each from our Human Resources Department).
We apologize for any inconvenience.
Sincerely,
I.M. Clenched, Esq.
Atty.
Bowel Movement International, LLC
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Sigh. On a more serious note....
I don't know anything at all about Grey Larsen's dealings with BMI, but it is *possible* that his publisher or recording label registered with BMI for him, without his knowledge or fuill understanding of the ramifications. Seems unlikely, but it also strikes me as unlikely that Mr. Larsen would do anything to limit the continued playing and dissemination of old, public domain trad tunes.
Will be interesting to see his reply, if he makes one.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
SEE?!? WHAT DID I TELL YOU!?!? Mumble grumble...
Timing couldn't be any worse either. Had lunch at a lovely Mexican restaraunt around the corner from the office here, plus some afternoon coffee. I wonder what Mr. Clenched thinks about that?
What a day, I just want to relax and play some tunes, let's see, what shall I play... [starts fiddling]
"KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK! Attention! This is the BMI! Put the fiddle down and come out with your hands up!"
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
why that was just "SWFL's Favorite No.12" - what's the problem?
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by airport
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
And on a practical note, you could make up a play list as follows and hand it to any BMI rep who darkens your door:
Set #1
The Fee-Collector's Bluster/What Part of Nae d'ye Nowt Ken?/Leave Now and Don't Come Back
The Banshee What Ate the Barrister's Heart While it was Still Beating/The Barkeep's Delight
The Day Our Collection Man Was Never Seen Again/The Bottomfeeder's Lament
Set #2
O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's Big Bad-Ass Brother/A Knock on the Door Late at Night/Say, Have You Seen My Teeth?/The Broken Kneecaps
Bar the Door/Feck Off Ya Boyo/Pardon My Frisian
Bend Over and Smile/Is the Big Man Within?/The Agent Who Couldn't Sit
(well, you get the general idea)
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Touch Me If You Dare
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Easy Will, you made me laugh so hard that I almost violated brochure #2.
airport with the quick answer! Or, "It's just one I wrote myself, 'The Humours of My Posterior' thoughtfully dedicated to a Mr. Clenched, you know him, fellas?"
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
lol! careful though - your title's a bit incriminating according to brochure #2. I think Reel in the Style of Posterior Humours" is okay though
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by airport
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
We apologize for any inconvenience.
Sincerely,
I.M. Clenched, Esq.
Atty.
Bowel Movement International, LLC
Shouldn't that read: We apologize for any in the convenience?
And is the world headquarters in Feakle?
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Maybe the easiest way around this mess would be to hand over a set list like this:
O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's/O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's/O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's (reels)
O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's/O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's/O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's (jigs)
O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's/O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's/O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's (reels)
O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's/O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's/O'McGilliobhanaraillighamhnveen's (strathspey, hornpipe, reel)
When the BMI rep asks who O'McGill.... is, you reply, "Ah sure, old Paddy, rest in peace. Penned a whole turf rack full of grand, brilliant tunes. Used to live just down the street. Never gave names to any of his tunes, and never recorded them either. Just played them here over the years, and we all learned them, just like that. He's been gone three years now--ticker finally gave out at 93, y'know. No kin--he never married. But his tunes live on, eh?"
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Gary, sorry but no, the world headquarters are in North Mianus.
(I'm not making this up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mianus_(neighborhood)
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Did you happen to know that they have Morris dancing in Mianus?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1jGW9BKFRs
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
...which presents BMI with an astounding set of even more complex legal problems, depending on what tunes are being used.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Ouch! And a stick dance to boot! Gosh, that must hurt!
(But it does seem a strangely appropriate setting for Morris dancing....)
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Ugh PUBBOY. I feel your pain...
I HATE it when the generously-named "Performers' Rights Organizations" like BMI and ASCAP decide to flex their muscles to try to make people stop playing their own music. If they had it their way, money would change hands (leaving them a cut) anytime anybody played a note.
I've been thrown out of an otherwise empty bar in some rural town after a couple friends and I pulled out fiddles on our own accord. The bar owner had apparently been recently sued by a PRO, and was terrified of getting nailed again. Thanks, BMI.
But as much as I detest ASCAP & BMI's handling of small venues like yours (and believe me, I would love to leave angry skunks in the underwear drawers of the people who do this), I think it's much safer for you to just bite the bullet and pay up. Then you can have whatever sort of music you want, and nobody will bother you.
Otherwise, they'll send a lawyer over to your establishment to listen to the session and wait for somebody to make the mistake of playing a copyrighted tune (even if by accident). If they catch even one Paddy O'Brien, Ed Reavy, or Liz Carroll tune, or even if someone happens to play a set of old traditional tunes in an order that somebody like Grey Larsen recorded (that's the "arrangement"), they'll bring the lawsuit hammer down on you HARD... on the order of tens of thousands of dollars.
Here's part of a conversation that went on about this on my fiddle list a couple years back (this topic comes up often).
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0607D&L=FIDDLE-L&T=0&F=&S=&P=5906
quote: "$30,000 for each copyrighted song performed without a license, and up to $150,000 if the infringement is willful, plus attorney's fees" (though I don't know where he got those numbers)
There have been cases of people getting around these fees (ask Roger Landes, the bouzouki player out in Arizona[1]), but it's a tightrope walk over a crocodile pit during a hurricane (and BMI's lawyers are the crocodiles). Additionally, since you're in Nashville, where the music industry (and the population of industry schills) is so huge, I would imagine your pub might look to them like a limping wildebeest wading through the crocs' breeding grounds. "Oh look! There's one we might be able to sue!"
The general sense I get is that these reptiles are not interested in making the Public Domain distinction. Instead, they'd prefer that the burden of proof (=legal $$$) is on you. In fact, they would rather have you pay the fee, and they are perfectly happy to intimidate you into doing so. Unfortunately, like any stereotypical mafia protection racket, they'll settle for making an example of you if you don't, and the laws are very much in their favor.
Of course, this is all in the name of "the musicians and composers", none of whom (at least in the Irish Trad side) are likely to see a dime worth of benefit from any of this strong-arming.
[1] Roger Landes' comments: http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0607E&L=FIDDLE-L&T=0&F=&S=&P=456
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Ian, I suspect BMI has listening devices up in Mianus, north and south, just to be sure they don't miss a single licensed toot.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
George, good link to Roger's post--thanks for that. Voice of experience, from both of you.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Will, with all the Morris dancers, lawyers, spies and high-tech monitoring equipment, it's getting awfully crowded up there in Mianus, let alone Feakle. (nice one Gary)
Georgi has a good point:
'I would imagine your pub might look to them like a limping wildebeest wading through the crocs' breeding grounds. "Oh look! There's one we might be able to sue!"'
It is PUBBOY's pub. Probably best to use caution, bro, especially considering your locality, like Georgi says.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
This problem has been going on for quite some time. BMI/ASCAP killed a session of mine a few years ago, because the owners didn't want to fight. (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2595)
The problem is that in a country which believes in the fundamental maxim of "innocent until proven guilty", somehow ASCAP and BMI have reversed that, and the onus is upon the establishment and performers to prove their innocence. Crazy!
An interesting article here: http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/phillips.html, and there are some good links here: http://www.folkjam.org/forum/topic/free-the-music-monthly-ad-hoc-bluegrass-jam-vs-ascap-bmi
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Grey just e-mailed me:
Hello Michael.
I am sorry for any confusion on this question. I definitely did not compose this tune, and as far as I know it is in the public domain. We registered an arrangement of the tune that we recorded many years ago, but as I presume that you have your own arrangement, please feel free to proceed freely!
Best wishes,
Grey
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
take any trad piece, no one knows who wrote it, the composer long since became part of a peat brickett.
however, its been recorded 100s of times.
dozens of those recordings will be slightly, or very, different to the accepted standard original version (if there is one?) that was written so long ago.
any version that strays from the original is an arrangement, has some new creativity in it (even if its crap) and as such has new copyright etc attached to it.
arrangement royalties are low compared to composer royalties, but they exist, and have to be collected, hence the license issue.
as has been said here before, the only sensible response to this is for anyone who thinks he has a novel working of tune, to register it as an arrangement.
music licencing is a real pain, but music has value, and its fair that the creative amongst us get a slice out of it.
to the original poster... on the one hand you could tell your musicians to play the standard non cop versions, and tell to the bmi, but neither will know what the standard version is. the fact is the musicians are probably playing an arrangement even if its just their own arrangement, which is still copyright
on the other hand, people are coming to your pub to hear irish music, instead of going to the pub down the road, so you are making money out of the music.
i think its fair some of it goes back into the pool for all those tortured composers out there.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by knucklehead
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I just sent Grey a reply:
Hi Grey
I apologise for my subterfuge. I do not know you and in light of your perfectly reasonable and prompt reply I thought it only decent to come clean. There is a bit of a stink going on at thesession.org, Maybe you should chime in.
Michael
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
its worth pointing out that the bmi site doesnt seem to distinguish between composer and arranger (at least in the links ive followed from this thread); im sure grey didnt do anything wrong.
whilst im here again... trad music must be a tricky area for bmi etc.
if you take a mozart piece, he is well out of copyright, but at some point he actually wrote it all down;
he didnt just *lilt* the nutcracker suite at the orchestra and then they copied it; there is a record of it, which is considered the standard; this is what new arrangements are judged against.
with trad, i bet there is no accepted standard for many tunes, its more of a "it sort of goes like this" sitiation,
so if there is no standard rendition, what are arrangemeents judged against...
or was it Tchaikovsky
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by knucklehead
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
There was a young Mitchell named Joni,
Who signed a record deal with Sony,
But when she read the fine-print,
she said "Holy S**T!!,
All proceeds go to Paddy Maloney"
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by t byrne
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I am always blown away that the Nutcracker is portrayed as a children's piece. It is a creepy piece of music about a creepy uncle and his young niece.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I thank Michael for letting me know of this discussion. This is surely a very sticky mess. I was not aware of these problems, and it has never been my intention to impede anyone who plays or records traditional tunes or who runs an establishment where traditional tunes are enjoyed. Quite the contrary. I will get in touch with BMI promptly and see what I can find out. If it will help, I will see if I can un-register arrangements that include traditional tunes which I had registered in the past.
I feel it is unfortunate that some of the folks who have posted have been mean-spirited, presuming they know the intentions of others, without asking them to speak for themselves.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by westside
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
This last post was from Grey Larsen. I did not know that my name would not appear with the post.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by westside
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
This is the response I got from Grey:
"Hello Darryl.
I am sorry for any confusion on this question. I
definitely did not compose this tune, and as far
as I know it is in the public domain. I
registered an arrangement of the tune that I
recorded some years ago, but as I presume that
you have your own arrangement, please feel free
to proceed freely as far as I am concerned.
I think I need to confer with BMI myself on this
issue. As far as I understand and intend, I
registered my arrangement only, and that should
not impede anyone else who makes their own
arrangement of a publc domain work.
I hope this helps!
Best wishes,
Grey"
I have to say that this fellow has gone above and beyond here.
Thanks for the input everyone!
I think I'll tell them to 'stick it!' tomorrow... ; )
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by PUBBOY
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Glad to see your comments here, Grey. And your "low" number (4620) reveals you to be a long-standing member here.
Good on you for taking this up with BMI. It will be most interesting to hear the results of your interactions with them.
(And thanks for the brilliant flute tutor, btw!
)
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
We have a similar situation in the graphics arts world of "paper marbling". That's the fancy paper you might see on the covers or inside on the endpaper of old leather bound books, expecially from the Victorian period though the art is at least 1000 years older. Many will be familiar with the feathery or spotted or wavy designs, deep colors.
There are many patterns, and recreating these papers/designs for book restorers has been my main livlihood for 30+ years. We have a similar dilemma in that the patterns are certainly public domain, yet we can copyright each and every piece of our "marbled art work" as our interpretation of a public domain design. All are a little different anyway, as any tune would be, played from one musician to the next. In no way would I ever imagine I own an historic pattern that has been around for centuries.
The US Copyright Office certainly understands the difference between creation of a design and interpretation of a design, so I don't get why BMI has such difficulty, or are the just bullies or ignorant?
I think maybe it's ignorance, a bunch of tunes comes in for registration and they likely don't, but ought to have a box that can be checked as to whether this is PD or original material. They likely just register everything as original. They need to change that if this is the case.
Things need to be explained to those ignorant of the difference, I do a fair amount of licensing my artwork for package design, some CD/DVD backgrounds, magazine ad backgrounds, brochures etc. I do spell out in my contracts that this does not mean, should the person pick a Bouquet pattern, that they now are the owner of that design and all who use it from then on need to get permission and pay them a fee.
In the meanwhile I will be sure to listen out for anyone playing any of the handful of tunes I have written. I wonder if I did register with BMI or ASCAP if I would ever see a cent of any fees they collected "on my behalf".
So that's what I'd tell them.... go create categories for interpretation/arrangement of a PD tune and for original tunes. Then come back and check on your pub.
Do any of these agents they send around actually know any Irish Tune names, for Heaven's sake, we have trouble enough remembering tunes names ourselves and often don agree on them. And then they have to cross reference them to the people who allegedly wrote them???? Where does the money go, I'd like to know that too, or are they acting like the Mafia, going around to pubs collecting money for their coffers?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
BMI is NOT the problem. The problem is that butthead is claiming rights to public domain tunes. The weird thing (to me) is that Mr Butthead thinks he's going to make some change off the rights to an ITM tune. LOL! I sure hope he doesn't spend all of that $5.43 BMI check in one place....
I guess it's time for some dedicated soul to make sure that BMI and ASCAP know about ITM. Any volunteers??
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by gw
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Hhmmm... that's not really cool.
The reason Grey published his 'arrangement' is so that when his version (CD) is played on the air, he can recoup some of his some of his recording costs.
He isn't taking credit for 'composing' the music, only rearranging it.
I don't see a problem with that, and what he said in his post is very positive.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by PUBBOY
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
"Hhmmm... that's not really cool.
The reason Grey published his 'arrangement' is so that when his version (CD) is played on the air, he can recoup some of his some of his recording costs.
He isn't taking credit for 'composing' the music, only rearranging it."
OK. So you're giving us a line of BS about the fees? I'm trying to track here... My band has done some recording of ITM tunes. We get performance but not publishing rights to the tune--because the tune is in the public domain. If you play Mr Grey's version, BMI can get you for performance fees for Mr Grey's rendition...
So what's the point of this thread. PUBBOY? You seem to be arguing against yourself.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by gw
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
The players at my Pub aren't playing Grey Larsen's ARRANGEMENT.
He has his arrangement published so that he can make some money when his unique version is played on the radio, etc.
He's not claiming to be the original composer of The Lark in the Strand, as BMI continues to insist. BMI is completely confused about what ITM is.
BMI is after me for a general licensing agreement, but the only kind of live music I allow to be played is public domain, ITM.
They give this impression that they 'own music' in general, and by the very fact that musicians play in my Pub I owe them money... hog-wash...
My point is, if I'm not using their product (licensed music) then I can't, and won't, be bullied into paying for it.
It would be one thing if the band showed up and said, 'tonight we are playing Grey Larsen's arrangements of ITM ..."
Then I would owe him (BMI) some money.
In fact I don't charge a cover for people to listen to music, nor do I require them to purchase food or drink. I simply want to have an environment for the Irish arts to be expressed. Period.
In addition to that, during the warmer months, the band plays outdoors on the sidewalk...
Why do you get 'performance rights' to Public Domain music?
That makes no sense to me...
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by PUBBOY
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
First of all, good on Grey for chiming in, much appreciated.
The only snag here is what gw is getting at. The door is open if a lawyer can make a case that anyone playing the tune is playing the version that is copyrighted. The only real beef will be if it gets recorded and sold as the exact arrangement, I would wager, otherwise, nobody cares. If another arrangement gets sold that is his and not yours, then a lawyer can jump all over that and sink their fangs into it.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I've had this problem in the past. In the correspondence that you've received from BMI, you may notice that the letters are signed, usually, by "Marketing Representatives". In my case, I sent them a letter with a play list of PD tunes and told them to have their legal department notify me if I wasn't in compliance. I never heard from them again, because the lawyers know that they have no case on PD tunes or arrangements, but the marketing folks know it's an easy way to make some cash.
(Remember, as a presenter, that "Happy Birthday", "Wild Irish Rose" , "Danny Boy" and a lot of the modern pub songs are have copyright restrictions (since they were performed in movies and on radio) - you're safer with instrumental groups playing tunes with obscure or "newly adapted" names.
PS - as you probably know, most pubs pay ASCAP/BMI Licensing fees as a part of their business expenses. Only record stores or retailers who sell music are exempt. If you want to get around the fees - start selling CDs of Trad music - God knows there needs to be more places to sell and buy the stuff. Good Luck!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Toppish
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
The problem is if the pub or establishment isn't willing to fight the good fight, or pony up and pay, the musicians lose out in the end.
I wonder what the official definition of a music retailer is, and whether you can really get around it by offering a few CDs for sale...
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
If you have trouble with your BMI*; make an appointment to see your dietitian! I imagine running a pub could cause your weight to creep up or perhaps all the worry is causing you to lose it.
*Body Mass Index: kg/m2
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by yhaalhouse
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Maybe there is a possibility of a free or cheap consult with an entertainment lawyer in your area?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
This whole thread has me further disappointed at the state of justice and fairplay in this world, the musical part anyway.
I shall rant:
I think Llig hit the nail on the head with his mention of having the balls to stand up for something, and I mean all of us, not just the poor pubowners.
As a man merely of Irish descent, I can only try to imagine what the feelings of any natives of Ireland must be, seeing part of their heritage bought and sold and pimped and prostituted this way. So why is this apparently tolerated? It goes on, there must be at least the implication of approval in the community, right?
I can come up with no answer that does not reflect some gutlessness of obliviousness regarding right and wrong, an attitude of "not my problem", "don't get involved", "I have a business to run", etc etc etc.
Do not get me wrong - I am not minimizing the needs of a man or woman who has to protect his/her business/income, but where the hell do you draw the line?
But who really cares? And will take concrete action?
Have BMI and their like have found a tolerant environment for this side of their "business"?
I also wonder what to think of any artists or their families, would think of what is apparently being done in their names?
Some names cited above as possible examples (the likes of a Paddy O'Brien, an Ed Reavy, or a Liz Carroll, etc,) ?
Would they give a damn about being associated with the folks that sold their souls for the copyrights?
Or do they just heave a sigh on the way to the bank, or their next paid gig?
We heard from Grey Larsen.
Will anyone else speak up about this situation?
I wish to understand how what I am reading here can possibly be defended.
My two cents and ramblings, 90% emotional I admit.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Rook
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
around here there are good, hard working, family oriented mobsters you can go to to fix problems like that.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
BMI has to be a bunch of hard cases because they are looking out for musicians who would be getting screwed over without them.
I have friends that get checks from BMI every year for the radio play they get all over the world. They wouldn't even know their music was on the radio in Tokyo or something if it wasn't for BMI keeping track of it all.
So yes, our culture has been repackaged and sold back to us by the Disney Corporation and TIme Warner, but that's what happens when the guys in suits get the idea they can make a buck off of somebody else. Personally, I lay the blame squarely on the doorstep of Peter Frampton, but I digress...
After 30 years of playing in night clubs, I can truly say that there is an ocean of difference between the art of music and the music business.
Each of us as performers and participants, and even as listeners, have to reconcile the art of music with modern age capitalism.
Remember what Our Lord said when told the people to "give to Ceasar what is Ceasars"
the less you mix money with your music, the less of the music business you have to deal with. So there's a blessing in being completely broke, having no gigs comming up, yet still owning a tin whistle
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
"Owning a tin whistle"? A "real traditional musician™" would borrow one. Didn't many families keep a fiddle or a concertina in the house for the occasions when a traveling musician would drop in for a visit?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Grey larsen must have given the tune to incoperate in Alans irish fiddler I have the 9d version. He must be really, really old!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by brians
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
OK, one more rant into that dark night...
This is Traditional music. If you're trying to make a buck from Traditional music you need to have your head checked.
If you want to make money you need to be an entertainer, not an artist.
Traditional music is a folk art. It's not supposed to be a product consumed for a profit.
If people want to go make money with music they need to tour their behinds off entertaining people, not making folk art.
I think that's what so upsetting to a lot of folks. Many of us freely give our time, skill and effort to The Music and The Tradition and could not care less about getting a single dime in compensation. We do it because we love it and we want to share it. We love being a part of it and want to pass it on. To us, it's art, not a product to go make a buck from.
So, when people try to do that, make profits from a beloved folk art form, it's naturally upsetting to those of us that don't, and simply give freely of the thing that we love.
...and if anyone has an issue with that they are free to go Morris dancing in Mianus. Thank you.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
It is nice to see truly great musicians be able to make a living being an artist, I will admit that, however the ones that earn the most respect from us are those that do not compromise their art and display a geniune love for the music.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
you're right, there, Gary. I stand corrected. A BORROWED whistle is an even greater blessing.
I agree with you, too, SWFL. I used to try and actually make a living at it, but they don't call the guitar the "starvation box" for no reason at all.
but it's our own personal choice what we try and do with our ability. Everybody has to decide it for themselves at some point.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
The IMRO site clearly states that an "arrangement" is as equal is fiscal reward as a "composition". This is one of the first lessons that many of the graduatres from uni trad courses are taught. All theses associations are affiliated and every time somebody anywhere in the world plays or is estimated to have played "gan ainm" the money goes into the pot and the registered artists of "gan ainm" get a return. A more transparent disclosure of the game should be available from the organisers of FACE http://www.fraynework.com/face/face/index.html
who have made no bones about expressing disdain for what is a very distasteful pursuit, particularly as it pertains to traditional Irish music and the hundreds of elderly practitioners who have never received a red cent despite their involvement as composers and arrangers. It pretty much amounts to theft as far as I am concerned never mind CCE's deal with IMRO regarding performance fees in every aspect which amounts to nothing less than wholesale looting.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Horrible spelling, sorry.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
"Why do you get 'performance rights' to Public Domain music?"
http://www.pdinfo.com/copyrt.htm
When music is in the public domain, like it or not, it's fair game. But any musician or group who intends to use a tune should makes sure it is indeed in the public domain or plan on compensating where compensation is due.
Typical wording on an album, for example, for publishing purposes is:
*All Music and Lyrics by MYBand except "The Public Domain Tune" based on a traditional reel.*
If say a TV show uses our arrangement of "The Public Domain Tune" from our self-published album then MyBand gets publishing and performance fees (based on a contract with the TV company) for the use of our version of the tune. If MyBand is under contract with a record company (hopefully a good, honest one
), then the record company would typically get the publishing half of the fees... Once the show has aired the TV company must then file a "play log" with BMI or ASCAP (depending on which one MyBand is registered with) to determine royalties for the use. BMI and ASCAP negotiate rates for usage and deliver royalties to the artists based on those rates...
"I have friends that get checks from BMI every year for the radio play they get all over the world. They wouldn't even know their music was on the radio in Tokyo or something if it wasn't for BMI keeping track of it all..."
That's exactly correct. Tiny sums though they may be
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by gw
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
"If you want to make money you need to be an entertainer, not an artist..."
Do you listen to any recorded music other than field recordings? If so, do you enjoy it? Is any of it "Folk Art" music? Do you think the music just magically shows up on the CD?... It had to go through some process to get there, and at some expense. Not to mention all the years of practice the musicians put in to be confident and competent enough to record the music. So... if they're fortunate to make a little return off of their efforts they are no longer artists? What a bunch of hooey!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by gw
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
gw, please go read my second post.
Yes, it you want to make a lot of money as a musician, I would NOT advise trying to become a world-famous Irish Traditional Musician.
I would advise getting a band together and playing some of that really popular Celtic Rock. You'll have much more of a chance.
Really want to make some money in the music business?
Get yourself some skimpy clothing and dance around suggestively to a computerized beat.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Hi there,
From BMI Website
The information contained in the database has been provided to BMI from a variety of sources, and BMI makes no warranties or representations whatsoever with respect to its accuracy. In some cases, the writer or publisher information shown may not reflect actual copyright ownership of a work as registered with the U.S. Copyright Office. In addition, writers or publishers for whom BMI does not license a work are not listed. Any use of this information for purposes other than to determine what musical compositions are contained in the BMI repertoire through the last update is solely at the risk of the user. Our database displays the names of recording artists that we have verified with independent, recognized industry sources.
A couple of points re the above, just a query
Q How can they present to anyone with an alleged breach of `copyright` if they can't verify the accuracy of the information contained within the database, and further, to vehemently absolve themselves of any responsibility or liability should one query the accuracy or errors that may be found.
Just a thot
pkev
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by pkev
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
SWFL, I included the elipsis at the end of the bit I quoted from your post to include the sentiment of the your entire post. You concluded that post with this:
"I think that's what so upsetting to a lot of folks. Many of us freely give our time, skill and effort to The Music and The Tradition and could not care less about getting a single dime in compensation. We do it because we love it and we want to share it. We love being a part of it and want to pass it on. To us, it's art, not a product to go make a buck from.
So, when people try to do that, make profits from a beloved folk art form, it's naturally upsetting to those of us that don't, and simply give freely of the thing that we love."
To me this is ludicrous. Not that some people devote their lives solely to "The Tradition" and "The Music," but that if they make that choice then they are somehow assumed to be more respectful of the "beloved art form." There are obviously plenty of fine ITM players who have recorded anywhere from slightly to significantly interpretive versions of the tunes. And they may even make a little money for their efforts. Does this mean they're any less respectful of the Tradition? If you believe this then you must think the Chieftains are the Devil incarnate--LOL!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by gw
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I have no legal background, and I have not had any direct BMI conflicts.
But I was wondering if anyone could answer this:
Don't many tunes go by different names? Isn't the confusion on BMI's part with regard to the tune names? By that I mean... if a session claims it is playing "Cooley's" - doesn't BMI just look to see if "Cooley's" is on the list?
Why couldn't a session provide an "official" play list with "new" names for the tunes? Wouldn't a BMI spy have to actually recognize the tunes themselves and somehow prove that someone else had copyrighted them?
I'm sure there is a catch here... but why wouldn't this work?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by glenn
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
the funny part is that there are bands that play "cover" songs in bars all over the world every day.
I never even thought there was a problem with that until one night when BMI walked into a club I was playing while we were in the middle of "Black Magic Woman"
They basically made us stop and then took it out on the club owner. 30 years of playing clubs and that was the only time I ever even heard of that hapening to somebody. Lucky me, eh?
So I would think that BMI would have to know about the session and actually come by and try and bust it, but if they go to all that trouble, you can bet they will make trouble for the owner of the place regardless.
Just like what they are doing with PUBBOY there in Nashville.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
FWIW, I apologize to Mr Grey for my "Butthead" remark. I hadn't read the thread thoroughly before firmly inserting foot in mouth.
Also, I don't make it a habit of touting the virtues of BMI. I know there are "issues"--the context of this thread is one such problem. But there is an obvious advantage (IMHO) to having an agency set rates and guidelines for procuring artist royalties.
That said, my personal opinion is that small "Mom and Pop" establishments like PUBBOY's should not be harassed by the likes of BMI no matter what music they play. If, on the other hand, it's "The Pure Drop Cafe" and there's one in every city packed every night with hundreds of Guinness swilling ITM lovers...
Love and Kisses!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by gw
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
If you look at the comments on http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display.php/3052 (William Winter's Quantocks Tune Book) you will see that it is a modern publication of an early 19th-century working musician's manuscript tune book that had been lost for about 150 years. Preparing and editing nearly 500 tunes from an old manuscript that is not easy to read and can be ambiguous, researching the music for possible sources, finding out what is known about William Winter and the music-making of his area in the West Country in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, making arrangements for publication, AND getting together a group of musicians to make a CD to go with the book, is not a job for the faint-hearted and takes considerable time and effort (I know the editor). Although the tunes in Winter's manuscript have no copyright in themselves today – and probably didn't in his day, either – the editorial preparation and the process of publication today inevitably attract all sorts of copyright in the printed Tune Book of 2008. Which is as it should be – publishing music isn't cheap.
Unusually, Halsway Manor, the publishers, have relaxed the copyright restrictions usually associated with printed music to the extent that, "Pages may be photocopied by the purchaser or by the purchaser's group, band, or school for use in music workshops or live performances by that group, band, or school".
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Can't believe that Danny Boy is copyrighted - surely, the melody of the Derry Air goes well back in time.
Mind you, I sometimes pity people who are called Harry Potter etc., with some multi media, multi national corporation owning copyright over and trademarking your personal identity.
Another question, if I write a new tune, can I call it The Lark in the Strand or the name off limits
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Glenn's question above makes me wonder how BMI would handle the situation in a place like Co Donegal where a significant number of tunes have been passed on by ear for hundreds of years, have never been committed to writing or print, and, mostly, have no names.
A couple of weeks ago I attended a number of fiddle workshops in Kilcar, Co Donegal, where we were taught about 20 tunes. The tutor, a very respected and experienced Donegal fiddler, admitted in the case of eight of those tunes that he didn't know their names!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Glenn's point is exactly why I suggested (way above in this thread) just making up names, either sarcastically, or simply calling every tune "O'Reilly's" or some such and leaving it at that. BMI would never know the difference. As long as the name is preposterous enough to NOT appear in BMI's catalogue, they won't sick their hounds on you.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
The lyrics of “Danny Boy” were writtten by Frederick Edward Weatherly (1848-1929), an Englishman. Since literary copyright for a published work in the UK extends 70 years after the death of the author, I would expect copyright in these lyrics to have expired by now.
For a discussion of the history of the tune, which seems to dated back to the 18th century, see the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Londonderry_Air.
While I'm about it, “Happy Birthday To You” is still in copyright and is owned by Warner, who make a sizeable sum in royalties every year and doubtless wish that fortunate situation to continue. You have been warned!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
This kind of greed driven lack of perspective (by the PROs) is also demonstrated in the way they go after small churches and youth camps and the like about thier worship music. It becomes a legal and logistical headache to even have a simple campfire sing-along. We have lost our freaking minds in this country!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by jasonlburnfield
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
gw
"It is nice to see truly great musicians be able to make a living being an artist, I will admit that, however the ones that earn the most respect from us are those that do not compromise their art and display a geniune love for the music."
I didn't want to have to spell it out, like you're doing, I was hoping folks kind of understood who I was talking about.
...and perhaps it's overly defensive on my part, but I've gotten used to people looking at me like I have no clue or there's something wrong, simply because I don't care to have a flashy website with glamour photos and CDs to hawk, and would rather anchor a session than hire out for gigs.
So, when it's not the writer of a tune with a copyright on it, or a great one with an arrangement, or what have you, and in particular, if it's going to effect people playing the tune in sessions, not just Joe and the Shmoes trying to pimp a compact disc or an MP3, and it's going to effect pubs and publicans that support sessions, then I think that's a problem, a big one.
But, as usual, I'm over-reacting, because it's not that bad yet, well, it is for PUBBOY.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
SWFL
I understand what you're getting at except I keep getting stuck at the somewhat derogatory asides about musicians who you seem to regard as unworthy of "The Music." ("Truly great..." as opposed to what--damn good? pretty good? OK?; "flashy", "glamor", "hawk", "pimp"...) This is my biggest problem with hardcore trad folks--the narrow-mindedness. Play the music, and play it well; preserve the tradition and keep the flame; and by all means enjoy what you prefer, but don't demean other musicians who choose to approach it differently.
Obviously, PUBBOY has run up against a behemoth (I'm curious how much he's being asked to pay). Some responders to this thread have given some possible solutions. Mr Grey has said he would contact BMI. After reading the following, I would probably just pay up and move on...
http://www.woodpecker.com/writing/essays/royalty-politics.html
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by gw
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Then we're having a shared over-sensitive moment, if you're getting stuck on it. I'm not trying to demean anyone, but I see no need to copyright arrangements of traditional tunes. My main concern here is corporations messing with sessions and publicans, and if vanity is assisting it, then I have a problem with that.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Good article too, thanks.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
AARGH! "Vanity?" OK. The straight dope from your pal gw...
My wife, Maggie, is a rather amazing composer/arranger. In 2003, after a long stint with another group, she decided to put together a large band for the sole purpose of recording of a batch of her original tunes. We decided to call the group "The Mad Maggies". Because of the name, we thought it would be fun to include a traditional tune with "Maggie" in the title. ("Fun" is the operative word.) ITM was not a criteria, but because we share a love of The Music we had several ITM "Maggies" on the list. Ultimately, we decided on "Sleepy Maggie." FTR, we're an 8 piece band. At the time our horn lineup was trumpet, trombone, tuba, clarinet/sax. The rest of the band is bass, drums, guitar (yours truly) and Maggie on accordion/vocals. Her arrangement of "Sleepy Maggie" was obviously not going to be even remotely "traditional" with that group of instruments. The horns do the first AA BB of the tune--need I say more? She coyrighted the arrangement along with the original compositions. Our version got used (almost in it's entirety) in the pilot of a TV show, and because the arrangement of the tune was under copyright we got both publishing and performance rights in our contract with NBC. And that greatly helped us carry on as a band--a band that plays 80% original music with the odd "cover" tune thrown in to fill in the sets. We didn't make a ton of money off the deal, but it was enough to cover our out of pocket expenses for the CD with a few bucks leftover for the band members. On our second CD we used "Are Ye Sleepin' Maggie." We're working on a third, but have yet to choose a "Maggie" tune. Does any of this mean we're greedy of vain? I think not. BTW, both Mags and I are in our mid 50s. Our youngest band member is 35 and has two young children. That means we can't rely much on the "eye candy" factor or rouse a large hall of drunk 20 somethings like the Dropkick Murphys (though we could give them a run for their money
). So we do it our own way. And if you or anyone has a problem with that, I raise my Utilikilt in your general direction 
Obviously, the public domain problem is a glitch in copyright law that ASCAP and BMI are exploiting. I believe unique arrangement of public domain tunes should be copyrightable, but that that the copyright ONLY applies to that particular arrangement. It's kind of a sticky wicket, but I'm holding on to it anyway...
http://www.utilikilts.com/
(check out their "Mock-U-Mercials"--there's some very funny ones.)
Peace, love and music!
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by gw
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I greatly appreciated reading everyones thoughts above on this issue, and mostly very civilized in general about a hot issue. Nate was on-target I thought with "render unto Caesar" , which about sums up my attitude.
Professional composing and performing are things I appreciate and respect. Wherever possible, I personally ask permission of artists before directly covering their works (for fun OR for profit). They created it, they own it, and they should have certain rights to it, which is merely fair and logical.
However, I maintain the belief that there are some things in this world that do belong to all of us, and I think that is at the core of some of what I have read above as well.
Ornamentation and personal interpretation really should be free to all, and if someone came up to me and said, "You cannot play it that way, Donal Lunny did it that way first, and he owns the rights," I might take it wrongly. But IMHO that is a part of what we are talking about here, if someone can manage to even copyright most of the major variations of standard tunes.
Sound silly? I am not sure.
Somewhere out there, there is someone with too much time on his hands, working it out right now.
Cheers.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Rook
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Wounded Hussar... not sure about BMI etc. but in the copyright rules, titles are not copyrightable. Nor is color believe it or not, for artwork. That has led some to take our artwork and color alter and pretend it's theirs...but we have other ways of recognizing things.
Think about books with the same title, not a problem as far as copyright. In art, if you are registered slight variations from the original are also covered.
Maybe it would be saner to have the legalities and licensing left to where someone wants to record someone else's composition, or put it in print. I could understand that. You wouldn't want someone doing a CD with four or five of your original tunes on it, and selling it, any more than if you had written a book, that someone lifts chapters to put in their own book, even with re-wording it slightly.
I have written numerous books and don't mind one bit if people would xerox parts for a class, or would want to get up and publicly read a part of a book, even if they were a paid public speaker, but would draw the line at them putting it out there in another book under their own name without permission and/or licensing fees or royalties.
To have, for example, some agency scouting out all the paper marbling workshops and classes in the country to make sure the teacher was not reading the students parts of my books, or making sure they didn't xerox a few pages they thought helpful, that would be outrageous. Seems that is what BMI etc. are doing on the music. The music police.
Honestly, the handful of tunes I have written, I'd be pleased as could be if people thought them good enough to play in their local sessions! If someone lifted one for a CD (especially with no credit given) I'd be a bit annoyed. I am not registered with any agency but the CD is copyright. Usually from what I understand, most people who are asked if their tune can be used, they say, sure, go ahead, give me credit though. On my own CD there are mostly trad tunes, and they are my own arrangements but I don't own the tune and never would presume to. Some people may think otherwise though, who knows.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
When we had to do this while playing at a local council venue in the UK, we simply gave made-up tune names with ourselves as the composers.
Since no one from the UK equivalent of the BMI has ever come looking for me to pay me the royalties for such tunes as "The Belhaven Beer Mat", I must assume that they have no intention of paying out.
PUBBOY's problem is that he has been scrupulously honest with the BMI when they asked for tune names, even though they are not being honest with him. Such a situation is made for exploitation.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by Bren
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
Hey gw, I missed your reply.
I know your band, I didn't bring it up previously. It's in your bio.
Now, if BMI is going to arrest everyone with a tuba playing "Drowsy Maggie" then I'd say yes, you vain so-and-so, look what you did!
Thankfully, I don't think we need to worry about that.
Also, we're talking about trad here, not brand new world fusion music like you guys do. It's cool, but it's not 'the music'.
I'm not talking about someone copyrighting their own world-music fused tuba-led romp through Drowsy Maggie.
The problem here is with people copyrighting traditional tunes in the manner that they'd be played at any session on the planet.
That's vanity.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Problems with BMI!!! HELP!!!!
I wish you guys all the luck in the world. We have the same trouble in the UK with a gang of thugs who call themselves "The Performing Rights Society". They are properly an organisation who can do valuable work making sure that Sir Paul gets his cut from perfomances of The Mull of Kintyre, but can't tell the very real difference (in law and in spirit) between that and "Father O'Flynn" or "Goathland Square Eight". The result is that in practice, they are a bunch of useless (supply your chosen descriptive noun here). Fortunately they are mostly incompetent, but that doesn't eliminate their pure annoyance value. At least you don't have a government to deal with who believe that TM needs legislation to actively discourage it, like we do!
There ..... I feel so much better now, I think I'll have a quiet lie down ............... ... .
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by Ebor_fiddler