I have recently built a small (one room) recording studio in my house. I have the walls and ceiling pretty well sound dampened with acoustic foam, and it's a decent recording environment. I built the studio specifically for voice recording. In years past, I made a fair amount of money doing voiceover work for advertisements, corporate presentations, and narration. I am hoping to pick up a bit of extra cash doing that again.
But it is also a decent environment for recording music. I am planning on building a portable sound barrier that can be placed between two players to lessen bleed between mics for recording multiple people at the same time, but for the time being, I can really only record one instrument at a time. And the room is really only big enough for two people. Or maybe 3, if we're all playing into the same mic.
Thanks in part to a recent thread (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18289), I decided to pick up a new Fostex 16 track digital recorder. I have a decent large diaphragm condenser mic for voiceovers. I have a rack mount compressor, plenty of effects in my mixing board and in the Fostex, as well as several different dynamic mics for both instruments and vocals. And, of course, I can dump it all down to computer to do final processing and mixing, if I need.
Anyway, I have been toying with recording different instruments, and I am wondering whether people have any suggestions or tricks for getting good sound in the studio. I have yet to find the right combination for recording the banjo. My Ome banjo sounds great in person (even better when someone else plays it ), but I am having trouble capturing that sound in a recording. (I've come close by using multiple mics and a fairly bright EQ setting) I am also interested in hints on recording fiddle, pipes, bodhran, etc. Any specific microphone types, placement, effects, compression, EQ, or processing wisdom to share?
I'll try to beat ceolachan to it--leave the reverb off.
The best "live" sound I've had for fiddle is with the mic right over bridge. For bright fiddles, over the bass-side f-hole also works well. Get as close as you can without interfering with the player's bowing.
yes, Rev, I believe most people do use different mic setups for recording than they do live.
For the fiddle, if you put the mic close, you will get more of the sound of the strings and less of the sound of the box. I try for about 18" above the bridge and I set myself up an equal distance from each wall so that I have an equal amount of reflected sound comming from each direction.
For the banjo, I would use a mic up close to get the percussive part of the sound, but also use an overhead mic or one out in the room to get the sound of the box and to let that sound have a chance to develop out in the room. Then I'd balance the mics to try and get the sound on the track to be like the sound in the room. At that point, its just personal taste that guides you, so try some different arrangements of mics and different EQs and whatnot until you get what you like.
I try and write down the different setting so I can recreate them later. Keep a little notepad around in your studio when you are doing alot of recording
i've also found banjos to be hard to mic,
they always come cross incredibly middley, and in a poorly soundproofed room...arg....
the best sound i got was by gaffa taping a lapel mic (ecm77) to the head. but you wouldnt do that unless you had one already.
do they make decent transducers (pickups) for the banjo? something that integrated into the bridge like the transducers for fiddle?
its just a thought, but I record my guitars directly off the board. If anything, you get a more consistant signal, no ambient noise, and you can fidgit a little when you play (not that we would be doing anything like that, but you could if you had to)
if there's one that's any good and around $100 it might be worth giving it a try, Rev
Nate, that's basically what I did to get a decent sound. I used a cardoid condenser pencil mic close to the head, and used the large diaphragm condenser to pick up the ambient sound up about 3 feet above the instrument. Still have some tweaking to do, though. Good idea about the notepad
Did you damp entire walls or did you leave patches of hard surface to allow some natural reverb?
Did you build the walls (and floor/ceiling) slightly out of parallel to eliminate standing waves?
Have you tried the large diaphragm mic for instruments?
Personally, I wouldn’t even bother with dynamic mics in a studio setting. They’re handy for avoiding some of the irritations of live venue work, but they can’t capture subtlety as accurately as condensers. To my ears, the difference is like spinning the tone knob on a Stratocaster. Okay, slight exaggeration there.
When I started doing sound tech work years ago, all I had were SM-57’s and 58’s. Nice indestructible workhorse mikes, but when I finally got some decent condensers (under $200), I was startled at the difference – like missing dimensions had been put back into the sound. (Possible slight exaggeration.)
There are, however, smart people who disagree with me. It’s possible that the intrinsic sound processing of an SM-57 is just what you want to hear.
There are lots of trade-offs in live work. Mic choice and placement are mainly aimed at avoiding feedback.
One thing to consider is – are you trying to capture a natural you-are-there sound or are you trying to match a professional recording studio sound (which is rarely natural)?
This is a great thread Reverend, I've been thinking about these very issues for some time. Traditional instruments are notoriously difficult to get right. Charlie Lennon at Cuan Studios has been planning a course specifically for engineering traditional music sessions.
In terms of "the chain" there are two schools of thought regarding compression. I record at 24 bit and apply compression in the mix from inside my program (Logic Pro has very decent software compressors or alternatively with Liquid Mix). This leave lots of bytes of sound to play with. Because most instruments play within a certain range there's little reason to apply soft limiting either unlike singers whose range can vary dramatically over the course of a song. Quality mics and A/D conversion are paramount. James Stephens in Ottawa has excelled at recording pipes, fiddles etc as has Declan O'Doherty here in Toronto.
Bob, I dampened all the walls, and the ceiling, with the exception of a few spots. I have a glass desk in the studio, for instance. It's a nicely dampened room, but it's certainly not a completely dead room, like I am used to working in doing voiceover work. I have been in a couple of vocal booths that are rather annoying to be in because they're completely dead. This room isn't like that. But snapping your fingers feels pretty deadened.
As far as the walls go, they're parallel. I just built it in a small room in my basement, and didn't go to any extraordinary measures, and the acoustic foam is fairly thin stuff. The ceiling is done with cardboard egg crates, which allow a bit of reflection, but it scatters it pretty well. The floor is padded carpet.
I have played with the large diaphragm mic for recording the instruments, and it seems pretty good.
Patkiwi, Charlie Lennon's course sounds great! I wonder if I could use that as an excuse for a trip to Ireland Just out of curiosity, what kind of compression settings do you end up using in Logic?
For my money, there's nothing like experimentation to figure out the best way to get a sound. For the banjo, I agree that multiple mike placements would be your best bet, but since you've got the Fostex, you can listen to several simultaneously. Try setting up a bunch of placements, and then listen back to the same thing from a number of different angles. Don't forget to try close-miking the head, try going in from the back if you've got an open-back instrument, and try putting a mic on a boom over your shoulder, by your right ear (where you hear the sound as you're playing it!).
When you listen back, try to listen for complementary sounds, where several placements get different aspects of the sound. When you mix, you can then place those across the stereo spectrum for a good effect. I like to put a room mike close to center with little or no EQ, and then scatter low and high from left to right or right to left, if that makes sense.
The main thing, though, is to listen and experiment. It can be helpful, also, to have someone else to push the start and stop buttons for you, if you find concentration fails you as you're recording yourself.
I've been recording banjo for a while now and use an AKG C2000B Cardioid Condenser mic,positioned fairly close to the banjo(about 75mm), with the levels lowered accordingly.I'm no expert on recording but it's been my experience to invest in top quality microphones first, and then work back from there.Also of course the tone quality of the instrument can make an enormous difference.
I think that before you start experimenting it's worth deciding which of two camps you place yourself.
Are you a) interested in emulating the sound of your favourite recordings?
Or b) interested in emulating the sound of a musician/musicians playing music?
There's a style of recording acoustic instruments that has become very popular of late: close miked, cleanly isolated, heavily compressed, recorded dry with a touch digital reverb added later (different amount on each channel), eq heavy on the base and the top (but again, different on every channel), pops scratches and hisses removed. When you play it on a good hi-fi the sound is very intense, the level of detail can be astonishing if done well
I have quite a lot of music recorded this way and can enjoy it for what it is. Though it's a different art form than playing music. I've done it myself (years ago now) with some success.
But to record people playing music is a completely different matter. You do away with the room damping, get your two mikes (good condenser mikes of course) a good 5 or 6 feet away at least, depending on the room. And record with no compression, flat eq and dry. Comparing a recording done this way with one done the other, you can get a feeling of it being a bit distant, but it isn't really, it's just not in your face. You also get a feeling that there is less detail, but that's an illusion. It's just that often, what detail you like about the other way of recording is over amplified by the compression. There is actually more detail in a simple stereo recording, stuff like people breathing etc. The stuff of life.
For my money the Dervish album "Spirit" approaches sonic perfection for this type of music. Every new listen reveals another layer of sound as your ears get used to the density of it. They're a big band so to get the level of clarity on each instrument and voice is astounding given that they all sit in the same sonic space. A great marriage of modern pop production techniques and gung ho session playing. Mind you I love the sound of the truck revving up on Breda Kelville's album as well. There's a great creaking chair on the first track of Chulrua's new effort and someone's kicking the mic stand all over Kitty Lie Over !!
That's a great post, Michael. Since I'm not currently doing anything other than experimenting, I want to try both of those styles of recording. It's not like I'm working on a specific project or anything.
I have already done some experimenting with some things that are similar to both of those styles, but having you describe them like that gives me some more specifics of things to try. Thanks!
Remember the story about the hi-fi buff being taken to his first classical concert to a symphony orchestra, and him complaining that there was no bass response? It's an important story.
And there's a feedback loop. It must be 20 years now since I saw a small Jazz trio/quartet/quintet that didn't have the double bass amplified when the piano and horn/horns played acoustically.
I find the whole concept horedous that punters' familiarity with recordings ends up dictating how live music sounds.
"uncompressed" will sound cleaner and less homogenous.(for CD repro).
Unless you are dealing w/ exteme highs & lows, you wont need to compress. Try recording the melody instruments seperately after laying a good rythmic foundation (do overs are then possible without "ghosting" from the first trys). Sorry, don't know anything about banjo work.
Secrets to recording different instruments
Secrets to recording different instruments
I have recently built a small (one room) recording studio in my house. I have the walls and ceiling pretty well sound dampened with acoustic foam, and it's a decent recording environment. I built the studio specifically for voice recording. In years past, I made a fair amount of money doing voiceover work for advertisements, corporate presentations, and narration. I am hoping to pick up a bit of extra cash doing that again.
But it is also a decent environment for recording music. I am planning on building a portable sound barrier that can be placed between two players to lessen bleed between mics for recording multiple people at the same time, but for the time being, I can really only record one instrument at a time. And the room is really only big enough for two people. Or maybe 3, if we're all playing into the same mic.
Thanks in part to a recent thread (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18289), I decided to pick up a new Fostex 16 track digital recorder. I have a decent large diaphragm condenser mic for voiceovers. I have a rack mount compressor, plenty of effects in my mixing board and in the Fostex, as well as several different dynamic mics for both instruments and vocals. And, of course, I can dump it all down to computer to do final processing and mixing, if I need.
Anyway, I have been toying with recording different instruments, and I am wondering whether people have any suggestions or tricks for getting good sound in the studio. I have yet to find the right combination for recording the banjo. My Ome banjo sounds great in person (even better when someone else plays it
), but I am having trouble capturing that sound in a recording. (I've come close by using multiple mics and a fairly bright EQ setting) I am also interested in hints on recording fiddle, pipes, bodhran, etc. Any specific microphone types, placement, effects, compression, EQ, or processing wisdom to share?
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
I'll try to beat ceolachan to it--leave the reverb off.
The best "live" sound I've had for fiddle is with the mic right over bridge. For bright fiddles, over the bass-side f-hole also works well. Get as close as you can without interfering with the player's bowing.
YMMV.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
Yeah, the banjo has a fair amount of natural reverb. Although I tend to detect just the slightest bit of reverb in my favorite banjo recordings.
Another question is whether people do their mic setups differently for recording than they do for live music...
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
The best way to record a banjo is while it's still in the case.
Doh!
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by t4kne
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
yes, Rev, I believe most people do use different mic setups for recording than they do live.
For the fiddle, if you put the mic close, you will get more of the sound of the strings and less of the sound of the box. I try for about 18" above the bridge and I set myself up an equal distance from each wall so that I have an equal amount of reflected sound comming from each direction.
For the banjo, I would use a mic up close to get the percussive part of the sound, but also use an overhead mic or one out in the room to get the sound of the box and to let that sound have a chance to develop out in the room. Then I'd balance the mics to try and get the sound on the track to be like the sound in the room. At that point, its just personal taste that guides you, so try some different arrangements of mics and different EQs and whatnot until you get what you like.
I try and write down the different setting so I can recreate them later. Keep a little notepad around in your studio when you are doing alot of recording
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
i've also found banjos to be hard to mic,
they always come cross incredibly middley, and in a poorly soundproofed room...arg....
the best sound i got was by gaffa taping a lapel mic (ecm77) to the head. but you wouldnt do that unless you had one already.
you might check these guys
http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/postlist.php?Board=Mics
this link is all about micing, soundonsound is a good resource for serious audio buffs.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by knucklehead
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
do they make decent transducers (pickups) for the banjo? something that integrated into the bridge like the transducers for fiddle?
its just a thought, but I record my guitars directly off the board. If anything, you get a more consistant signal, no ambient noise, and you can fidgit a little when you play (not that we would be doing anything like that, but you could if you had to)
if there's one that's any good and around $100 it might be worth giving it a try, Rev
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
Nate, that's basically what I did to get a decent sound. I used a cardoid condenser pencil mic close to the head, and used the large diaphragm condenser to pick up the ambient sound up about 3 feet above the instrument. Still have some tweaking to do, though. Good idea about the notepad
And thanks for the forum link, knucklehead!
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
Yeah, they do make transducer pickups. I might investigate that.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
Some questions, Rev –
Did you damp entire walls or did you leave patches of hard surface to allow some natural reverb?
Did you build the walls (and floor/ceiling) slightly out of parallel to eliminate standing waves?
Have you tried the large diaphragm mic for instruments?
Personally, I wouldn’t even bother with dynamic mics in a studio setting. They’re handy for avoiding some of the irritations of live venue work, but they can’t capture subtlety as accurately as condensers. To my ears, the difference is like spinning the tone knob on a Stratocaster. Okay, slight exaggeration there.
When I started doing sound tech work years ago, all I had were SM-57’s and 58’s. Nice indestructible workhorse mikes, but when I finally got some decent condensers (under $200), I was startled at the difference – like missing dimensions had been put back into the sound. (Possible slight exaggeration.)
There are, however, smart people who disagree with me. It’s possible that the intrinsic sound processing of an SM-57 is just what you want to hear.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
There are lots of trade-offs in live work. Mic choice and placement are mainly aimed at avoiding feedback.
One thing to consider is – are you trying to capture a natural you-are-there sound or are you trying to match a professional recording studio sound (which is rarely natural)?
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
This is a great thread Reverend, I've been thinking about these very issues for some time. Traditional instruments are notoriously difficult to get right. Charlie Lennon at Cuan Studios has been planning a course specifically for engineering traditional music sessions.
In terms of "the chain" there are two schools of thought regarding compression. I record at 24 bit and apply compression in the mix from inside my program (Logic Pro has very decent software compressors or alternatively with Liquid Mix). This leave lots of bytes of sound to play with. Because most instruments play within a certain range there's little reason to apply soft limiting either unlike singers whose range can vary dramatically over the course of a song. Quality mics and A/D conversion are paramount. James Stephens in Ottawa has excelled at recording pipes, fiddles etc as has Declan O'Doherty here in Toronto.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
Bob, I dampened all the walls, and the ceiling, with the exception of a few spots. I have a glass desk in the studio, for instance. It's a nicely dampened room, but it's certainly not a completely dead room, like I am used to working in doing voiceover work. I have been in a couple of vocal booths that are rather annoying to be in because they're completely dead. This room isn't like that. But snapping your fingers feels pretty deadened.
As far as the walls go, they're parallel. I just built it in a small room in my basement, and didn't go to any extraordinary measures, and the acoustic foam is fairly thin stuff. The ceiling is done with cardboard egg crates, which allow a bit of reflection, but it scatters it pretty well. The floor is padded carpet.
I have played with the large diaphragm mic for recording the instruments, and it seems pretty good.
Patkiwi, Charlie Lennon's course sounds great! I wonder if I could use that as an excuse for a trip to Ireland
Just out of curiosity, what kind of compression settings do you end up using in Logic?
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
For my money, there's nothing like experimentation to figure out the best way to get a sound. For the banjo, I agree that multiple mike placements would be your best bet, but since you've got the Fostex, you can listen to several simultaneously. Try setting up a bunch of placements, and then listen back to the same thing from a number of different angles. Don't forget to try close-miking the head, try going in from the back if you've got an open-back instrument, and try putting a mic on a boom over your shoulder, by your right ear (where you hear the sound as you're playing it!).
When you listen back, try to listen for complementary sounds, where several placements get different aspects of the sound. When you mix, you can then place those across the stereo spectrum for a good effect. I like to put a room mike close to center with little or no EQ, and then scatter low and high from left to right or right to left, if that makes sense.
The main thing, though, is to listen and experiment. It can be helpful, also, to have someone else to push the start and stop buttons for you, if you find concentration fails you as you're recording yourself.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
Thanks, Jon,
Very good advice. The Fostex only has 4 simultaneous inputs. But I can easily put 4 mics on the instrument, and mix&match :D
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
Can you imagine what a banjo sounds like if you knelt on the floor and put one ear up close to it? Mike positioning is common sense
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
I've been recording banjo for a while now and use an AKG C2000B Cardioid Condenser mic,positioned fairly close to the banjo(about 75mm), with the levels lowered accordingly.I'm no expert on recording but it's been my experience to invest in top quality microphones first, and then work back from there.Also of course the tone quality of the instrument can make an enormous difference.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
I think that before you start experimenting it's worth deciding which of two camps you place yourself.
Are you a) interested in emulating the sound of your favourite recordings?
Or b) interested in emulating the sound of a musician/musicians playing music?
There's a style of recording acoustic instruments that has become very popular of late: close miked, cleanly isolated, heavily compressed, recorded dry with a touch digital reverb added later (different amount on each channel), eq heavy on the base and the top (but again, different on every channel), pops scratches and hisses removed. When you play it on a good hi-fi the sound is very intense, the level of detail can be astonishing if done well
I have quite a lot of music recorded this way and can enjoy it for what it is. Though it's a different art form than playing music. I've done it myself (years ago now) with some success.
But to record people playing music is a completely different matter. You do away with the room damping, get your two mikes (good condenser mikes of course) a good 5 or 6 feet away at least, depending on the room. And record with no compression, flat eq and dry. Comparing a recording done this way with one done the other, you can get a feeling of it being a bit distant, but it isn't really, it's just not in your face. You also get a feeling that there is less detail, but that's an illusion. It's just that often, what detail you like about the other way of recording is over amplified by the compression. There is actually more detail in a simple stereo recording, stuff like people breathing etc. The stuff of life.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
For my money the Dervish album "Spirit" approaches sonic perfection for this type of music. Every new listen reveals another layer of sound as your ears get used to the density of it. They're a big band so to get the level of clarity on each instrument and voice is astounding given that they all sit in the same sonic space. A great marriage of modern pop production techniques and gung ho session playing. Mind you I love the sound of the truck revving up on Breda Kelville's album as well. There's a great creaking chair on the first track of Chulrua's new effort and someone's kicking the mic stand all over Kitty Lie Over !!
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
That's a great post, Michael. Since I'm not currently doing anything other than experimenting, I want to try both of those styles of recording. It's not like I'm working on a specific project or anything.
I have already done some experimenting with some things that are similar to both of those styles, but having you describe them like that gives me some more specifics of things to try. Thanks!
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
Remember the story about the hi-fi buff being taken to his first classical concert to a symphony orchestra, and him complaining that there was no bass response? It's an important story.
And there's a feedback loop. It must be 20 years now since I saw a small Jazz trio/quartet/quintet that didn't have the double bass amplified when the piano and horn/horns played acoustically.
I find the whole concept horedous that punters' familiarity with recordings ends up dictating how live music sounds.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Secrets to recording different instruments
"uncompressed" will sound cleaner and less homogenous.(for CD repro).
Unless you are dealing w/ exteme highs & lows, you wont need to compress. Try recording the melody instruments seperately after laying a good rythmic foundation (do overs are then possible without "ghosting" from the first trys). Sorry, don't know anything about banjo work.
# Posted on September 2nd 2008 by hauke