Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
In a recent post on another thread Ilig had an interesting point, which was:
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"I'm certain that starting late is no insurmountable hurdle. Absolutely you can be as good or better than those who started as kids."
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What are people's thoughts on this? How many of you began in mid-life [or later] with little or no musical training? How has the journey been? What were your fears starting out? Were you resistant because of self-defeating 'ageism' or did you tackle it like you were in your teens or twenties.
I've heard other fellow fiddlers say that you just begin to figure out what you're doing by year five and that by year 10 you might start to actually sound like you're playing tradtional music [if you've more or less gone about it the "right" way(s)]. That seems about right in my case. But what about other's experiences?
I also recently heard some heartwarming stories from fellow musicians of their mothers and even grandmothers taking up the fiddle [to pick one instrument] in their late 60s and even into late 70s/early 80s.
So is it never too late to become a decent player, or better late than never? And how 'good' can one really become? [And maybe, after all, becoming good enough to join in is really the point and there's no need to be a star.]
I'd be interested in people's personal journey anecdotes.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I didn't start playing Irish until my late 30s. I played guitar for many years before that, but wasn't even slightly good at it. Getting interested in Irish gave me the motivation to get better as a musician.
I often wish I had started young. Younger people are more malleable, and can pick up new things a bit easier. But being more mature has its benefits too, like analytical skills, and the ability to understand certain aspects of the music better.
I don't think that starting later in life is much of a hinderance, as long as you're dedicated, and can commit the time and energy to learning to play well.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Like Reverend, I came to trad music on mandolin and then banjo late (~43) after many years of playing guitar.
I sometimes wish I had started young, but then I wonder if I'd still be playing if I had? So many peope seem to peak in enthusiasm in their late teens and early twenties and then lose interest after that.
And it is such a great "hobby" for my declining years.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Maybe I should have entitled this post "The Frost is All Over"....? for all of us approaching our golden years I suppose I should have added a bit about my own story in that that I took up fiddle at 40 having never played/learned music in any formal way. It came out of bodhran playing actually. I felt I couldn't really be 'inside' the music unless I played a melody instrument. Bodhran was a natural for me since I was a percussionist as a kid...and...like the Rev says, you never lose that malleablity [or not much] once you had it. So bodhran went well and rapidly. But fiddle was another thing entirely since 1. it involved (or could) involve thinking about music as melody and intonation and dots [as opposed to more or less strictly rhythmic pattterns]. So fiddle has been a long and winding road. Two steps forward and one back as Fiddle4 has coached me here on The Session. But with the help of real life fiddle teachers here and there and dedicated practise [i don't regard it as that...it's fun...so 2-3 hours a day can go by quite nicely] and great tutor resources like Matt Cranitch, Cathal Hayden, kevin burke and Sheila Garry & Brid Crantich's irish session tune cds I think now that it's finally coming together -- a bit of theory blending nicely with a lot of listening....so now, yes, sometimes I even hear the "nyah" . It's happening!
Playing fiddle has immensely helped my feeling of and understanding for the music and,weirdly, I swear my bodhran playing is all the better for it...for having learned a melody instrument that is because the approach definitely crosses over...and, yes, bodhran can be played melodically. ;) Somewhat.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I started playing guitar at age 5, started playing professionally at age 14, studied music at a university, and have been playing my whole life.
Now I started playing fiddle just this year, but I already knew how to read music, learn by ear, knew music theory, and basically had the foundation to learn to play pretty easily.
But as to how good a person can become, who can say. All you can do is try and get the most out of the talent you have,
Also, remember there is a difference between playing 20 years and playing the same year 20 times. I'm glad I was young when I first heard that.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Ah, Nate...so here's the rub for those of us taking up late in middle years....Can you overcome lack of suppleness and being young, etc through 1. decent practise/listening habits and 2. 10+ years of simply playing the music as it's meant to be played.
Is it more a quesiton of experience then [ie, playing years] vs. any advantage that youth and a previous music background might offer?
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I am an adult learner who aspires to mediocrity on fiddle and box. I may be getting there on fiddle.
When I get discouraged at my slow progress relative to the young pups I tell myself that I am not sure if I practice I'll ever get good, but I am damn sure if I don't practice I won't.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I picked up guitar at 40 and mandolin at 42(about 5 or 6 months ago) Never could really read music. I still can't. Though I can dissect it well enough to figure out the notes and eventually play them. But it's a slow process. I prefer to use ABC and a piece of software called Band-in-a-Box to learn from as I don't have a teacher. Both give me music to listen to and dots and/or ABC to work out the rough spots.
Sadly, my guitar playing is atrocious but I've had much more success with the mandolin. I keep it simple and just pick the melody. No chords, nothing fancy but I do try to throw in a triplet here and there where i can.
Sure it would have been nice to start as child but what I really want is a teacher. It's just not affordable right now. So I practice as much as possible. Probably for an average of 2 to 3 hours a day. But on days off, I have my mandolin in hand all day long and have been learning a lot lately.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I think it is easier to learn when you are young because you have fewer responsibilities and have more time to practice.
All the great players I've known said the same thing: at some point in your life you have to spend 8 hours a day practicing for about 4 or 5 years. Once you have done that at some point in your life, you can basically stop practicing and go and play as much as you can.
and that is the hard part. I practiced no less than 8 hours a day for 5 years between the ages of 17 and 22.
And you have to have the thousands of repetitions so that the mechanical aspects of playing are completely on your "autopilot" and you are free to listen (and pay attention to) the other players in the room. I have a hard time with that on the fiddle because the bowing is new to me. I only learned to sing a song while playing fiddle just this last weekend. That's a big breakthrough for me, though, because it means I'm getting comfortable on the fiddle.
But I still have many hundreds if not thousands of hours to go before I can expect to go to Philly or Baltimore and participate in a session with other players. Its just the way it is
but on the other hand, people have more patience and can see the freedom that is at the end of the discipline better when they are older, so as long as you have breath in your lungs and the desire to play, you should do just that.
will you become a concert violinist? probably not, but then you'd have to play all those crazy accidentals if you went that route anyway. So do the best you can and remember the things that are important in this life. Its all any of us can do really.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Like several here, I played other instruments for years, even doing 'Irish' of a sort before coming to ITM and learning box.
When I was a kid, I wanted to play something, I sat down, and I played it. And Remembered it. It happened very quickly.
Still I can sit down on the chirch organ or piano and learn something new with relative ease. Relying on 50 year old synapses I am told.
On the Box, a new intrument even though I learned PA. It has been slow. I think I am better than I am and get nervous in ways I never feel it performing my other insrtruments. I tell my bix teacher that I feel like an eleven year old again when I play in front of him.
My ear and musical memory work as well as ever. The hands are still pretty good. The connections between are the struggle. You think you have it right....and you play the same screw up you did before you focused and repeated and focused and repeated.
He had 12 year old getting ready last month for the Fleadh. I watched a bit. Damn the kid was fast, precise. But he had no interest in the music, had his mother sitting there, and complained that his Mum kept putting him on new instruments hoping he would find a musical home.
But you know. At my age (ouch that sounds awful) I suppose I have to overcome the slow synapses development with attitude. I know I can play ITM and do it well. The wiring has not gotten that far yet.
ITM is fascinating as is the box. Somedays sound good. It is just that Some days I just feel like crying.
But lately Herself with the several hundred ITM CD collection on her Ipod commented that she recognized things I was playing from her collection.
I must be making progress! It must be possible to teach an old f**t new instruments.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I think not. I really believe that playing music is just too wonderful to be limited to those of us fortunate enough to have had lessons as children.
I do a fair amount of writing and teaching on the subject of music within Pagan spiritual life, and I am forever encouraging ritual music that permits everyone's participation at some level, as well as constantly spouting the above with or without the slightest encouragement.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Daniel Levitan's book _This is Your Brain on Music_ touches briefly on the topic of early vs. late starters. To paraphrase (and possibly distort - it's been awhile and I don't have the book with me), he mentions that the parts of the brain devoted to learning music "properly" will get reallocated for other functions if they're not used for music at an early enough age. The cutoffage , he says, is considerably greater than it is for learning a first language (if you can't speak a language by age seven, I think, then language will never come naturally to you), but it's not unlimited - I think he gives a cutoff of twenty or so, or just post-adolescence. None of this, of course, is to say that it's pointless to try to learn a first instrument late in life.
The good news is that this age cutoff is for learning a first instrument, and that once you've picked one up, you can learn to play others "fluently", even if you start late in life. I started fiddling in my late twenties, and although I certainly don't sound like I've been playing twenty years, as many fiddlers my age have, I don't think I sound any worse than any children I've heard who have been playing as long as I have. As a child I played recorder for a year or two, and then (classical) piano for eight or nine, and then I went over a decade without playing anything. When I first introduced myself to my fiddle teacher just over two years ago, he asked me if I'd ever played a musical instrument before. I answered in the affirmative, but did so somewhat dismissively, as it's been ages since I've played piano and I was never terribly good at it. But my teacher was encouraged to hear that I had a musical background, however dormant, and I've been pleasantly surprised over the last few years to see how much I've retained and can apply to a new instrument and a new genre.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
i would echo alot of what zippydw says.
its never too late to start, i really believe this
I played guitar (variously) from age of 10, I started playing itm on the banjo 30 years later, so now im playing catch up learning tunes.
One drawback of learning itm late is the vast amount of tunes you need to learn, against the clock, as it were.
it takes time to learn them,time to keep them working well,
and time for them to become a part of you so you can almost play them without thinking.
you do have to dedicate yourself to it.
one thing that seems to happen on the banjo, that i never really got with the guitar...is that if i dont get the chance to play for a few days, when i go back to it i feel very rusty, and the tunes dont come to my fingertips so easily.
whereas with the guitar, its all just *there*, even if i dont play it for a couple of weeks.
this may be down to how long ive been playing both (guitar 30 years, banjo 1 year) but i wonder if its that its a short term memory issue. when youre older, things dont stay in your brain as easily, especially if you drink more at 40 that you did at 10.
also, with itm, every tune is the same, but they are all different. so you are learning/remembering tunes which have many subtle differences, this makes itm more challenging than other types of music - again its a memory thing- i feel such a challenge would sit better on the unfrazzled brain of a 10 year old than a 40 year old guiness drinker.
if you start late, and dedicate yourself it, and you feel, like me, that you are playing catchup, then you can overdo it and hurt yourself by practicing too much (i will expand on this in a separate thread). i have a very sore hand at the moment due to this....
people should always be encouraged to learn,whatever age.
i think sadly, many people think learning an instrument is what your children do, not you yourself.
and it doesnt really matter what level you get to,
if your music only stops someone turning the TV on for an hour, then surely thats a small victory in itself.....
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I think the advantage to starting very young, especially if you are being classically trained, is that you are not intimidated, and you pick up the reading and motor skills for playing music with the ease with which you pick up the everyday activities of life. However, after you are about 12 or so, learning music is no easier than it is at any age after 12. From that point on, the only advantage to having started younger is that you get the experience under your belt at an earlier age, so by the time you get older, you have that experience to draw on. But it's never too late to start.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Take up an instrument late in life--no problem. Your playing won't be as polished as someone who has played it for 20-30 years, of course, but you can make enjoyable music. Which is the whole point, if you have a healthy attitude about it.
The big difference with those kids in the CCE videos, or today's adult players who started out young, is that they are steeped in the tradition in a way that an adult beginner just can't be. There's no substitute for a lifetime of practice (and/or subconscious mental "visualization") in a big, rich genre like this one.
On the other hand, those child prodigies and living legends can't be everywhere. So, if there's going to be live Irish music, one of us lesser mortals has to step up and do our best.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Ailin's first sentence captures much of what I think is a major advantage to starting young: all beginners sound terrible. Young beginners, unlike adult beginners, have the advantage of not realizing how terrible they sound, and consequently are not inhibited by self-doubt.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
When I was 7 I wanted to play the violin. I was given classical music training. I soloed; I played with orchestras, etc. By the time I got to be 13, I was sick of it. It was all work and no fun. I saw some fiddlers once, and told my classical music teacher I wanted to fiddle. He freaked out. My parents weren’t much help, just followed his lead, so I put the fiddle away, picked up the guitar, and rode my skateboard to the nearest punk rock band.
Fifteen years later, when my first son was born, one St. Patty’s Day with him in the baby seat, I was listening to the Chieftains when it hit me. “Hey son, wanna hear your old man play the fiddle?” He gurgled at me and drooled, so I went ahead and blew the dust off the sucker.
He’s 8 now and I’ll be quite content with fiddling ‘the music’ for the remainder of my time here on the globe.
I will say, despite the stress and misery of intensive classical music training it did give me a wonderful gift that made learning ‘the music’ so much easier as an adult, after a long lay-off.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I have such admiration for anyone who continues to challenge themselves by learning new things well into their dotage. A fellow we play with around town here started playing the whistle when he was 68 years old. He went in to purchase a Native American flute one day only to discover that those hand made beauties cost hundreds of dollars. "Got anything cheaper?" he asked, only to be given a Sodlums Irish whistle. He has been a regular session attendee for the past 5 years now, diligently learning new tunes and steadily improving. His story is currently featured in the latest Treoir magazine.
So no - you're never too old to learn anything new if you have the desire.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I grew up listening to my mother play the guitar and eventually, the pennywhistle, fiddle, banjo, piano and whatever else she could afford to play around with. My aunts, uncles, grandparents, great grandparents and great great grandparents on my mother's side are/were all musicians. My siblings all play an instrument or two. I feel much obliged to this familial immersion in music... I think I got a lot more out of it than any music lessons. Family reunions, church, and get togethers were always held together by music more than anything else.
My mom taught me guitar chords as soon as my hands were big enough to reach them, and then my grandparents paid for piano lessons for a while when I was seven. My teacher thought I was remarkable and talented but said I lacked the patience to make it very far. To this day, I hold that it wasn't impatience but boredom with the instrument and the particular way of learning (classical). I had a terrible tendency to play the notes perfectly while ignoring the the proper rhythm. I think, that had I been learning from ear, rather than sheet music, I never would have done this, since it didn't happen when I learned trad music from my mom when we were playing around.
I continued to play though, eventually without a teacher, until I hit my teens. I then picked up the silver flute and taught myself well enough to play in high school orchestra for a couple years. More classical, more boredom, although I did teach myself a fair number of ITM tunes and enjoyed that greatly. Ran away from home at 15 and took a pennywhistle with me and joined a punk band in which I played the guitar (badly) and sang (also badly). I did much better with the pennywhistle and continued to play it off and on throughout my life for my own amusement. Even when I wasn't playing anything, I would find myself in folk instrument stores just checking out the people and instruments.
I took a five year hiatus from music of any kind when I moved out to the wilderness. I'm now 28 and recently realized how much I had always wanted to play the fiddle but had thought I'd never be able to afford a decent instrument. I'm now the owner of three fiddles (anyone want to buy/trade for a 3/4 size I got by accident?) and am sawing merrily away at my favorite appalachian, SW mountain, irish and scottish tunes. I'm also teaching myself mandolin and teaching it to my 8 year old daughter simultaneously.
I can read music on an intermediate type level about as well as I've ever been able to. It seemed to stay stored there in my brain pretty well. I kind of regret that. I really really really wish I'd learned to play more by ear as a child. I think I'd be much better off. Now I'm attempting to train myself to do just that. I DO think that would have been easier to learn as child.
So much has to do with the listening, and any of us can do that to varying degrees. It does require a lot of concentration, focus and commitment though, especially for those not raised with that kind of listening as a standard thing.
My mother always tried to communicate that the music wasn't a mathematical thing to be done in a mechanistic way (though it could be) but something that sings in the blood and in the instrument, that's just waiting to be expressed. Like how the best art isn't created but rather revealed as something that was always waiting to happen. She thought that traditional music especially was like a living thing that spoke through the musician. Understanding that now takes the pressure off of me to feel like I need to be endlessly perfect and to focus on listening and channeling the music through me. It's humbling and magical all at once -- the music is ancient, and it doesn't care how old we are. It's in us and waiting to emerge.
That's my long winded way of saying that we're never too old to remember the music.
Now, if only my fingers would cooperate with the music ;)
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Judging by the eye-rolling my daughter gives me when I suggest she practice her harp, the main difference between learning young and learning at a more mature age is that, for the older learner, the goal is see-able and worth it. I don't think young kids understand that practice can be entertaining in itself. Half an hour on the harp and my daughter is ready to wander off. Half an hour playing ITM with my husband means my hands are just warmed up and I'm ready to tackle something at speed, or try something new.
I've played instruments since I was 8 -- silver flute and percussion in school, and then I taught myself instruments when i was in college -- different voices of recorders and mandolin -- then took piano lessons in my 30s. I didn't begin playing ITM until about 6 years ago, when I was 49. Before that, it was Renaissance music and classical things. I still love that stuff and occasionally still drag out my old books, but ITM is what I willingly practice consistently.
Most of the people in my group took up their ITM instruments after their hair turned gray, and they enjoy the music with the same enthusiasm as anybody who's an expert at 25. Will we ever be brilliant? No. We've missed a lot of years playing the music, but we aren't bored with it or only playing it because it's all we know, either. Maturity comes with an appreciation of process and complexity. It's a trade-off, but always worth it. Learning anything -- even how to use a computer or an iPod -- keeps your mind alive.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
This is a topic that is near and dear to me.
I took 2 years of piano lessons in elementary school and hated them. But I kept playing piano anyway. I eventually taught myself to play at about a Grade VI level (in my own mind), but haven't played much in the last 20 years.
Then, about 2 years ago, on my 41st birthday, I decided to take up the fiddle. It helped that I could read music, but learning to play the right note without frets and with a bow is a continuing challenge. But a few people have remarked how much better I've gotten lately (which I interpret as "you're not nearly as awful as you used to be"!)
The trick for a new fiddler is to find easy tunes to play that people like to listen to. I think if you practice a lot with a good teacher, you can play simple tunes in public much sooner than you think.
What inspired me was someone else in a similar forum who said "In ten years, I'll have been playing for ten years." Sure, I wish I'd started when I was a kid, but at least now I can say I've been playing for two years.
Just do it! And keep us posted on your journey, too.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I started music (guitar & piano) at 13; double bass at 15; all the band instruments in my 30s; began ITM on flute at 54; began bagpipes (GHB) this year, at 57. I'll probably start something else in my 60s.
While it's true that we aren't as supple as kids, we are much more focused and determined than most kids are. You can't turn back the clock, so instead fill the years ahead of you with music.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I started to play the fiddle aged 62 with no previous musical experience of any kind. I`ve now been playing for just over two years, I can sight read and hold my own....just.... in the circles in which I play. I do have considerable experience in education in all sectors and can confidently say that mature starters have considerable advantages over those who start when they are chidren.Firstly, adult learners have considerable more motivation and determination than juniors. An adult getting a mark of 60% in some exam will be disappointed and want to know where marks have been lost, a schoolchild is likely to think that 60% is an excellent mark. Secondly, a retiree like myself has much more time to spend on pracice than the young, two hours a day is easy for me to fit in, a schoolchild with demands of school, play, and growing up generally, will find it far more difficult.Thirdly, a lare starter is likely to be much more affluent than a schoolchild and will be able to afford a reasonable full size instrument from the start. The best advice I received when starting....3 days after I had picked up the fiddle for the first time......was to buy a good fiddle if I felt I was serious about playing. It would be easier to play and make a much nicer and therefore encouraging sound, that a student cheapie. Fourthly the cerebral side of playing comes much more easily, I learned to read music very quickly and I can grasp the structure of tunes/music much faster than the juniors I come into contact with.
The major downside of being old doesn`t seem to be lack of flexibility or anything like that, but a failing memory which makes it hard to learn tunes, it`s a much longer process than for younger players. I find learning by ear extremely difficult but I`m not sure that`s a function of age, and it is beginning to improve. Anyway , where I live (far north of Scotland)playing from music is the norm.
Major problem that I have found as a late starter is the attitude of some of my peers. These tend to be adult players of average competence who seem unwilling or unable to accept that you can start late and be able to play. I assume that if you are one of these people then it must be enormously satisfying to your ego to hold the view that you cannot be "averagely competent" without years of training as a junior.
Hope this doesn`t upset too many people.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I was thinking that you could divide those who play/are learning (same thing) this music into two distinct camps: Those that want play and Those that can't be arsed. Regardless of age.
But then I read through the discussion and disagreed with myself.
I now think that you can divide those who play/are learning (same thing) this music into two distinct camps: Those that listen, and those that "don't listen" / "find it difficult to play by ear" (same thing).
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
When I was younger I played in some rock and roll bands that recorded (see profile for details). I stopped playing because I didn't think I was any good and I certainly was not a musician. So, I sold all my guitars and amplifiers and moved on with my life.
In 2006, I went to my 40th prep school reunion and ran into an old friend who is a musician. He was back in the area and told me I should come to an Irish session near my house that he played at. So....I went to the session for a while and really liked the music. I've always liked Iriash music, but had been never to a session.
Well, a year and a half went by, I borrowes a guitar and started to learn some tunes at someone's house. I found it very intimidating, but really enjoyed it. I finally accumulated a little cash and bought myself my first acoustic guitar. I had it at the session one night and the woman who ran the session stopped the session and made me sit down and play. I was mortified, but I played, and decided to keep playing.
The best advice I got was to listen to the music. I have tought myself some music theory, and learned to read music a little bit, but after a year and a half, I can pretty much figure out most tunes by ear and play them in the right key. I am a work in progress, but I will say that the advice to learn by ear was very good advice indeed.
So....I am playing 5 sessions a week, have added a couple of contra dances to the mix and am enjoying myself immensely. And I ahve discovered after all these years of not playing....that perhaps I am a musician after all. I have my wife to thank for all this...if she hadn't left me and my 3 children 6 years ago, I never would have started to play music again. A true gift!
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I had been playing piano for approximately thirty years when some local musicians started an Irish Session here in 1995. Before these musicians started this Session, I didn't even know that there were such things as Irish Jam Sessions.
After attending a workshop on Folk Keyboard in 1981 which was taught by Triona ni Dhomhnaill, I had bought a copy of O'Neill's and was trying to play some of the thousands of tunes in that collection by myself. I didn't know that there was anyone else here who liked this music before 1995.
Before these musicians started this local Session, I had played piano at various local jam sessions at which I had played many different types of music as well as earning a music degree from a local university.
When I saw the poster announcing an Irish Jam Session at a seafood restaurant, I was intrigued and decided that I would go. I sat there quietly all evening and listened. While I listened, I noticed that all of the musicians played by ear and they didn't use O'Neill's or any other sheet music.
At the end of the session, I told the musicians what I played and asked if I might participate in their next session. They said yes and I have been playing piano more-or-less irregularly at the local Irish Session since then.
Thanks to my extensive background, training, and experience, I was able to learn how to fit in quickly at the Irish Sessions although I was playing an atypical, non-traditional instrument.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Death, or severe dissability, is the only cut off. Go for it. Others can argue who belongs in Irish culture, and who doesn't. Ignore 'em, unless and until it is your whole Trad-playing community trying to persuade you to do something else with your energies. Otherwise, give it a go. All the best.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
The big difference between many of us and wonderful, talented12 year old players....many (I am avoiding the 'of us', I like to think that, but know there were kids who were better) ...are playing, but have many other things going on.
How many of 'us' are encouraging those 12 year olds... IF we are are great players, encouraging them. If we are talented 12 year olds in the body of a fifty something, we are learning and giving them an example that no matter how good you are, you never stop learning.
Atahualpa ( and I thought giving our daughter the name 'Deirdre' was complicated!) has it right. 'Death , or severe disability'...tough thing to think about. But I am going for 250....and making folks listen to ITM from my box the whole time...
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
In my experience, the kids don't question (at least on how to play), whereas the adults tend to over think what they are doing. It is kinda like the argument for the gymnasts in the olympics being 16 or over. I heard it explained that the younger kids don't understand the ramifications of what they are doing, how hard it is. They just have fun doing it.
I've tried telling adults that want to learn to play fiddle to try and relax, empty their minds, and just play. a zen thing.
That said, when I have been to fiddle contests and heard the junior div. (usually 9-13 yr olds), I just want to put my fiddle back in the case for a long time!! There are a couple of small fry that are phenomenal. One of their teachers explained that they don't know it's hard.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
and by the way, 12 year olds today are much busier than most adults I know. They have school, homework, music lessons, sports, etc. At least that is what I've experienced.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I started to learn fiddle at 65 with no musical experience. I've been playing for 5 years mostly learning from a tutor book. I really love the fiddle and the music. Progress is slow but it is happening. I now play with some other guys of about the same level and it's great fun.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I was expecting to find a post from my dad on here. He had a good few decades behind him when he took up the flute and ITM. Now people think he must have taught me (it was originally the other way around) because he's so good. I think it's a combination of natural musicality, the will to succeed and practice, all of which he has in abundance, whereas I'm kinda lazy!
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Speaking of Zen and willingness to learn, I remember this advice [it might have been in relation to being a haiku poet not sure, but musician/writer/etc could easily fill in the blank], which was:
a real artist [and let us count any of us who embark on this at whatever age, as artists in the true sense of the word] always *has the eternal mind of a beginner*. This goes even for someone who's a pro at whatever they do....they always have the mind of a beginner,meaning they are always open to ideas and new things in the same way children are. Everything is new and interesting to children. I think it's amazing that the people here have managed to keep that going...that curiosity about life and sounds,e tc.
It seems to me that adulthood is so often about "putting off" or dampening those qualities that made childhood so productive: openness, wonder, curiosity.
Especially curiosity about the world.
As a great journalist once said: "Always have the mind of a five year old." Meaning, like the zen comment above, having the courage to NOT know it all as an adult. Goes a long way in being open to learning and enjoying ITM I think?
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
llig leahcim,
"It's worth mentioning that one of the reasons late comers can excel is that this music is - relatively speaking - not technically demanding."
I think that's a pretty inaccurate appraisal of the music, and quite a dangerous statement to put out thread about adult beginners learning.
The fluctuations of tonality and intonation in Bobby Casey's playing, the complexity of melodic variation in the music of Tommy Potts, and the downright physical instrument command of Coleman and Touhey - technique is evident in pretty much all the leading exponents of the music, and equal to that of any other genre of music. To lessen ITM by saying it's not technically demanding says more about your ability to understand it than it does about the music itself.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
To play the music is not a challenge. To play it very well is. I think that's the distinction Mr. Llig usually tries to make.
It is music of the people, don't we often make a stink about that? Working folks would come home after a long day and have some tunes and take a spin on the dance floor for some fun. It's designed to be easy to enjoy and participate in. It's like that boardgame Othello. "A minute to learn, a lifetime to master..."
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
ITM fiddlers use only a small part of the instrument's capabilities - which
for me is still quite a challenge! Listen to the Bartok Sonata for solo
violin or anything by Ysaye, or a bit of jazz improv from Ponti
and you won't so impressed by Fergal Scahill, etc. any more!
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I didn't read all of this, but for the last few bits I think Michael is right saying the technical demands of Irish music are, relatively speaking, simple.
When I took up the pipes at twenty one I was told it was too late to really get it. Maybe so, I think I did OK given the circumstances but I have taught twelve year olds who grew up with music around them, Paddy Canny and the like playing in their kitchen, who had an instinctive understanding of the music that would be attainable for a relatively late starter only by hard work and deep immersion.
Willie Clancy, in an interview with RTE, said the key was to start early, as a young fella, if you really want to get to the bottom of it. I think he was right.
Which doesn't mean to discourage late starters but to really get the understanding and the nuance of great music, it takes a lifetime.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I disagree with Willie Clancy. If there is a "key" that unlocks this music, then that key is simple immersion. The idea that if you missed out on it when you were a kid, then it will be locked away from you for ever cannot be true. And it's this kind of doctrined exclusivity that often stifles talent.
And to say it takes a lifetime is misleading. How long is a lifetime? What if you die young? What if you've been playing for 70 years but only once a month for a couple of hours? What if you've been playing and listening for 8 hours a day for two years?
I'm well acquainted with the concept of never stopping learning, but you cannot extrapolate that into saying you can only ever "have it" at the moment of death.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Michael I think it's like learning language, the native speaker will be able to attain a total instinctive grasp of the nuances. Late starters may by and large master the language through hard work and immersion but will rarely get to write great poetry in it.
People like Potts and Casey, they were products of their environment combined with their personalities.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I knew you'd come up with someone like that so I said 'rarely' .
Fact remains that immersion from a young age will give you a headstart that if it can be overcome at all it can only be overcome by total immersion and dedication.
This doesn't mean late starters won't be able to reach certain technical or even musical levels, I do think they'll never reach the same instinctive natural musical fluency that early starters may reach if they stick with it.
I knew a German man who spent his younger years designing the Messerschmidt 109 and took up the pipes when he was 80. He played them for 29 years, until he died last year. He never became great on them, or even half decent. He had a great time with them though.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
All I thought I knew when I started playing at 42 were three polkas. Now I don't think I know any tunes at all. I tell people that I play hundreds, but I don't know a single one really. But I love playing them not at all properly. All my friends play them not at all properly either, but in a different not-at-all-properly way to me and to each other. This is called having fun. I love it. You get out of it exactly what you put in. Round my way I doubt whether one person in a hundred who hears me could predict to within 40 years how long I've been playing.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
"they'll never reach the same instinctive natural musical fluency"
Hmmm, "never". I simply can't agree with that. It's such a negative concept. You simply cannot say to someone that they'll "never" achieve instinctive natural musical fluency.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I'm still disagreeing with you. I think that if you are a late starter, you can reach the same instinctive natural musical fluency as those who are immersed from birth.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Seems to me that that capacity for music is innate in us--something we all do as kids, clapping out rhythms, singing, etc. And it would be pretty odd for someone to grow up in an environment devoid of music. Seems more likely that we're all immersed in music for most of our lives. The fluency part only becomes "difficult" when we decide to specialize in one genre and then pick up some Rube Goldberg conglomeration of wood, horse's tail, and wire.
But if you immerse yourself in that genre and woodshed on the Goldberg invention that happens to call your name, anyone can reach fluency in about 10,000 quality hours. It's up to you whether you fit those hours into 4 years, 6, 10, or 20.
There's also a difference between being fluent with music and being a prodigy at it. Go find a YouTube clip of Chris Thile playing mandolin at 6 years old and then come talk about a "lifetime" of immersion. A few prodigies are simply astoundingly quick and intuitive. A few of them also put in hours of woodshedding. They achieve in a few years more than most of us do over decades. That prodigious talent doesn't always reveal itself in early youth. Consider Frankie Kennedy.
So the nuance and charisma of Bobby Casey's playing isn't just about immersion and woodshedding. He was one in a million, a rare talent, a stand out. The analogy to language is apt, I think. Every language has its handful of gifted poets and songwriters, but that isn't the only bar we measure "fluency" against. Few of us can write with the elan of a Shakespeare or Joyce or cummings, but that doesn't and shouldn't stopper us from speaking and writing.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
that's how I see it, too, Will. I've been fortunate enough to play with some really talented players. There are people that just have "it" and that's just the way it is.
but that doesn't mean the rest of us should all just give up
not everybody is equal. That would be communism or something. All you can really do is try and reach your own potential, whatever that may be.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I agree with that Will, I intentionally mentioned Heinz Braun who lived in Mooncoin and took great pleasure in playing the pipes.
I do think however it is burying your head in the sand if you think someone taking up the fiddle (or anything else really) has equal opportunities to someone who was immersed from their early days.
That shouldn't stop anyone from taking up an instrument and enjoying playing a few tunes. But I don't buy into the big equalizer- we're all fine- as long as you enjoy it it's all good attitude. Some people will forever be crap at it, some will be great and most will be just mediocre and that's the reality of it.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Hmmm. I'm not sure "medicore" is the word I would use to describe the wide middle ground between crap and great. For example, I would include myself in the large number of fiddlers who can play this music convincingly and with fluency, albeit not with the flair and "greatness" of a Bobby Casey or Tommy Peoples.
Similarly, when I think of pipers, Paddy Keenan strikes me as one of the greats. Now please don't take offense, Peter, but you're no Paddy Keenan. And I say that only to emphasize that your playing certainly transcends mediocrity. Your piping is very, very good--convincing, authentic, fluent. I genuinely enjoy listening to your playing on "They'll Be Good Yet."
All I'm suggesting is that immersion, woodshedding, and obsession with the music can lift you out of the mediocre masses whether or not you were born in the genre. And you yourself are a good example of that. The Paddy Keenans and Bobby Caseys and Chris Thiles have something extra that sets them apart even from other very good players, whether any of them were born to it or not.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
When I talk about people becoming intimately acquainted with the music I think of people like Micho Russell or Kitty Hayes, Mary Haren and the like who had an acute sense of rhythm and melody, people who can paint the whole picture with a few simple brush-strokes. And it's that aspect I am talking about, that acute and instinctive understanding of what makes a tune work and that's what comes from absorbing the language of music at a very young age.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I do think that someone taking up the fiddle (or anything else really) has equal opportunities to someone who was immersed from their early days. It's harder yes, but the opportunity to be just as good is certainly there.
Yes, I agree that some people will forever be crap at it, and the odd one will be great. But I will not concede that if you start late, you are doomed never to reach the ability you could have gained if you started as a kid. Yes, it will be harder work, but potential is potential. Physical limitations like arthritis aside, potential does not diminish with age.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Human beings are one of the species on this planet with the least amount of instincts. We are mot even born with the ability to suckle, that's one of the first things we learn. Compare that to a goldfinch that even if it is hand reared and never heard or seen another goldfinch in it's entire life can still sing so splendidly, like all the other goldfinches.
You talk about the "instinct" to play music. You use the wrong word. It is learned. It is all learned.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I think that if you want to say that everyone has the same basic opportunity to work hard and get to a level where they can play an instrument, then yes, anyone who stays with it and practices the right things can get to be a good player
but....
there are people who are just on another level.
for instance, I will never be able to play like Bobby Casey even if I lived to be a million and practiced every day from now until the end of the world.
and I'm a pretty musical guy
but that's just the way it is. those people are rare, but the better a player I became, the more often I'd find myself on a bandstand playing with guys like that.
Sooner or later it always became apparent that some of these guys had something very special going on.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
there is that 'otherness' to people like a Kitty Hayes or a Micho Russell -- somethng that sets them apart. Interesting examples, because, from what I've heard of both I wouldn't say it's pyrotechnics. They don't blind you with their speed of 'fancy' playing, but whatever it is in their music it's something that's light years beyond mere technique. I'm sure they worked hard and long and took the music seriously but perhaps too they were just incredibly keen listeners who knew where to take the music, and how to get that music [in them] out.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
you know mtodd, I've even known alot of guys who were fantastic musicians, but had other things in their life that kept them from ever getting famous, or having that "complete package" the record companies like to find. some of them simply wanted to raise families and didn't want to be on the road anymore.
So on top of being great players, alot of people who become famous playing music also have a good business sense and a good bit of luck to be at the right place at the right time, and are able to throw thier hat in the ring and go, too.
Sometimes you just have to say that they were born to it. With all the gifts they had what else could they be?
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
'It's all learned'
Is it Michael? There are several levels to that.
I remember one occasion that struck me deeply: Five years or so ago I was teaching Brid O Donohue's eldest daughter 'The West Wind', one of Willie Clancy's tunes. The girl had started coming to me to learn he pipes when she was twelve but had started the whistle, informally, when four. Anyhow, I played the tune through once while she listened, second time around she started playing along with the phrases she had, third time she had the tune sussed. In the third part however she turned the phrase inside out and create a lovely contrary variation that would not have been out of place in Willie's own version. It was a moment that lifted me out of my seat, it really was.
She didn't know she did it, she had sussed the structure of the tune and filled in the notes she hadn't picked up. That is what I call an instinctive insight and I care feck all if the choice of words is wrong.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I never ask people how long they've been playing.
That's an interesting story kilfa. A twelve-year-old got a bit of a tune wrong on the third time through hearing it, and substituted a phrase that sounded just as good or better than the original. But anyone with a half decent knowledge of the music would do the same. What would really be impressive would be to get it exactly right on the third time through, then throw in the variation on the fourth time through.
But I digress, we know the music isn't about being impressive. Where in your story do you not think the twelve-year-old had not learned to substitute a phrase they didn't quite get with one that still fitted? Yes, there are several levels to learning stuff. Your example is one where there was no formal learning, just subconscious immersion. But it's still learning.
Anyway, It's difficult to debate with someone who cares feck all if their choice of words is wrong.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I suspect that Michael is being biologically more accurate in his use of the terms learned and instinctive and that he and Peter are crossing swords unnecessarily here. There is no way I can possibly quote evidence, but it seems apparent to me that a child with a penchant (define - heheh) for the music will pick stuff up (define - heheh) much quicker than an adult. I started very late and my young son used to disgust me with the apparent ease and speed with which he learned to play both tunes and accompaniment (and there can be nothing instinctive about accompaniment can there...huh?) Being soaked in Eye Tee Emm from an early age does not develop instincts. It develops an all-round knowledge and appreciation of the music that makes it far easier to be comfortable in the idiom. Adult learners are struggling both with the technicalities of their instruments, quite often, as well as trying urgently to pick up tunes. A bloke who plays the fiddle with us (and who's well past the bloom of youth) has only been playing Irish for a couple of years but he is a consummate fiddle player already and hasn't got the burden of trying to master the instrument as well as learning tunes, so he's just as quick as most kids I've come across when it comes to getting into this music. It may not be very helpful to say it, but the problem is we're all different.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I came to this music in the latter half of my life (unless I live an unusually long time). And I became good enough to enjoy it. Maybe not good enough to pass muster with some self appointed music expert, or professor from some college, or member of some cultural organization, but good enough to enjoy playing it by myself, good enough to share it with some like minded musicians, good enough that people enjoy listening to it, good enough to play for dancers. And in the end, since this is folk music, music for folks to enjoy, isn't that all that is important? I can play well enough to enjoy myself, and bring beauty and joy to my life through music. And that is all that matters.
In this world, too many people don't experience this because people tell them they will never be great at it, that you need to be brought up in certain culture, that you must do it this way and must do it that way. Instead, lets reach out to people of all ages and abilities, help them to attain whatever level of competence they can, and show them that making music is a blessing, that music is not a commodity just to be listened to or consumed, but something everyone can make, and enjoy making.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I knew posts ago Michael and myself are thinking pretty much along the same lines with only minor disagreement but some issues separating us. It doesn't harm making the point though.
Anyhow, I agree early absorption is more learning than 'instinct' and I possibly should have said early absorption is the element that lies at the base of developing an intuitive understanding.
Then again, maybe I was unwittingly making my own point about language and finer nuance.
There's no clear cut answer to the initial question. It depends where you want to take it, there's a difference between enjoying what you're doing, scraping along in a big session and playing alone eking emotions out of remote corners of a melody, bending and reshaping a tune with taste and insight.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I like it, but I'm going to change it slightly:
Early absorption is the best element that can sit at the base of developing an intuitive understanding. However, if you missed out on that, an equal intuitive understanding can be gained in later life through absorption coupled with dedication. Where ever you want to take it.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I find it quite amusing that the differences between llig and kilfarboy seem to revolve around concepts like 'intuition' and 'instinct' which are so vague as to be open to myriad interpretations...
I think it was Gregory Bateson who was asked what an instinct is.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
They are vague concepts allright. I mentioned Micho and Kitty Hayes who both had that natural elegance and insight in the music they played. It's that special something that comes from being around and immersed in music. I called this, instinctive or intuitive because neither of those two could put words to what they were doing but 'knew' what was right and what didn't suit.
Both were probably extraordinary examples but it's something you find to an extend in both young and older musicians who have music around them all the time. That ready understanding of a tune.
I have in the past taught at the Willie Clancy week and can assure you there's a difference between people who have it (whatever you call it) and people who are late starters or those who are not around music much.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Another factor in all this is that people who are going to be drawn to this music or to a particular instrument probably respond to that draw at their first (or nearly first) exposure to it. For most people so-inclined, that happens when they're kids because we're routinely surrounded by "exposure opportunities." For example, I was 7 when I was first struck by the sound of fiddle (on a recording) and knew I wanted to play that instrument. No turning back.
People who start an instrument later in life either never felt that call earlier, or they ignored it. Neither of those responses to an exposure opportunity is going to make you a fluent musician, and they'll be hard to overcome even if you do eventually immerse yourself in music. Being oblivious to your bliss is *not* the path to fluency.
Also, there are lots of people who dabble in music, who think that an hour of playing a week is "plenty," and who don't bother learning to really listen. They're content to just scratch the surface. I don't think it's fair to include these folks in the same statistical sample as people who immerse themselves. It skews the results.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Unless you grow up in Colorado and want to play the uilleann pipes. If I had the resourcefulness at 7 that I had at 21 that is necessary to obtain a set when you live in the middle of nowhere (Irish music-wise), I would have started at 7. I also would have started maybe in high school or at the beginning of college if I hadn't been told that the instrument was so difficult there was no point in attempting to learn to play it. I had to be old enough as well to have more of a f*ck you attitude, do what I could to find a set (living on the East Coast at the time helped immensely) and just go for it.
I am just illustrating that there are many reasons why people do not start young even though they may feel that call earlier and did not respond to it until they were older.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Silver Spear, that is, in part, my point though. When first gripped by that passion, some people just won't take no for an answer. They're not discouraged by anything. Sure it helps if the people around you are supportive right off the bat, and if your passion happens to coincide with the culture you happen to live in. But not all "child prodigies" get such a head start. Some of them faced the same challenges you did, but they dug down and did it anyway.
In short, you ignored the call at first. Yes, there are thousands of perfectly reasonable reasons for ignoring the call. But for some people, none of those reasons matter. They just get after it.
That said, some of us are just late bloomers in the chutzpah department. So now you're doing it. Will you be older when you reach your potential than if you had started sooner? Yes. Can you still reach your potential? Certainly, if you put the time and passion into it. Good on you!
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
'Also, there are lots of people who dabble in music, who think that an hour of playing a week is "plenty," and who don't bother learning to really listen. They're content to just scratch the surface. I don't think it's fair to include these folks in the same statistical sample as people who immerse themselves. It skews the results.'
Yet who hasn't met the old farmer who sits in the corner who was a great dancer when he went to the housedances, loves to listen but never had time, money or the inclination to play but who knows exactly and very detailed what is going on and may even be tempted to pick up a whistle and try blow a few notes to show you something and when he does goes right to the heart of the matter and shows he's soaked in music, even while he doesn't play.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Sure, Peter, but he's immersed, right through to his marrow. He's *listened.* So he's not in that group of people who, as I said, "don't bother to really listen."
And he'd probably have made a brilliant player....
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I have a few neighbours like that, men between their forties and sixties, they learned to play when in National School but never actively kept it up. Love music, are always around it but are not known as musicians. Yet if you manage to coax them into trying a tune something really lovely comes out.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I still think your categorizations are too broad, Will. Although it may well be some measure of defensiveness on my part recognizing some truth to it as I am usually pretty annoyed with myself for not starting earlier.
But I don't necessarily think all the late starters who posted on this thread either just dabble or ignored "the call" and therefore will never be able to be fluent in the music because of their reaction to "exposure opportunities."
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I said it before, and will say it again, as long as you become good enough to enjoy playing, you are good enough! The problem is not starting at an advanced age, it is the sad fact that too many people never get started at all.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Good point kifarboy, there are some things I play for fun on my own that are NOT ready to take out in public (yet). Naturally, in addition to playing for your own enjoyment, you have to know your limits, and try not to destroy someone else's enjoyment with playing that doesn't meet a certain standard!
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I'm with TheSilverSpear - I started wanting to play the violin when I was eight; my mother wouldn't let me, and put me at a piano instead. I wasn't in much of a position to disagree. By the time I was eighteen, I was a mediocre piano player who didn't much enjoy playing the piano, and had been told by many, many people that I was too old to learn to play the violin properly. I believed them, in part because my halfhearted and dismal attempts at learning to play an instrument I had no love for left me believing that I had no talent for music. At twenty-eight, I took up the fiddle, figuring that the worst thing that could happen was it would cost me a few hundred dollars for lessons I could easily afford in order to discover that I still couldn't play the fiddle. I haven't looked back. Part of me wishes I'd started earlier; but part of me is convinced that I'm driven largely by the fact that I feel I need to make up for lost time. I went twenty years wishing I played the fiddle. I didn't ignore the call; I just resigned myself to not being able to do anything about it.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
hey TD&M - you stole my story! I got stuck playing piano too even though there were two fiddles in the attic which I desperately wanted to try. I have them both finally - I've been at it about 8 years now and I think you have something there with the making up for lost time. I went far too long believing I was too old to play - no one who has some time for it and can hack the first couple of years is too old to start
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I think our stories are even more similar. I played French horn from age 7 to 13/14 and was rubbish at it (to be fair, I never practiced very much because while French horns sound very pretty, their parts in band music and classical music are usually mindnumbingly dull). I also was in choir for about five years, which was fine, and an a cappella group for a semester, which was not fine. I then extrapolated my failure as a French horn player and an a cappella singer to believing that I was a rubbish musician generally so when I was told that uilleann pipes were one of the hardest instruments, ever, to learn, I was rather dissuaded from learning them for a while. As TDM said, I did not ignore the call so much as look at the evidence from my previous musical ventures and conclude for too many years (I see this in hindsight now) I was too musically-challenged to learn an instrument as challenging as the pipes.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Yes. My fiddle teacher is fantastic for a thousand reasons, but chief among them is the fact that he never for a moment gave me any indication that he thought that adults were incapable of learning to play the fiddle well. And you know, while the fiddle beats me up daily, it's just not as hard as people (none of whom actually play the fiddle, mind you) seemed to think it would be. I can make music that I and others enjoy listening to, which is more than a lot of people thought I'd be able to do after a scant two years and change. And yeah, like you, SilverSpear, the main reason I never got any good at playing the piano was because I spent maybe an hour a week at the piano. And the reason I seldom practised piano was because **I wasn't motivated to play the piano**. Yeah, fiddle is challenging. So are pipes, from everything I've heard. But do you know what's always been the most challenging thing of all, for me anyway? *Forcing myself to do things I have no interest in doing.* I wish I'd realized that it was lack of motivation, not lack of ability, that had stunted my growth as a musician so long ago.
(Oh, SilverSpear, I too am a failed acapella singer: eight years ago I got rejected during an audition for an acapella choir and went years thinking I couldn't sing. Turns out I can sing; I just have an awkward range and don't follow directions all that well, so while I'm pretty good at coming up with harmonies on the fly (which is useful at sessions), I'm not so good at following a choir conductor's directions.)
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
And you know, while the fiddle beats me up daily, it's just not as hard as people (none of whom actually play the fiddle, mind you) seemed to think it would be. - TDM
I find the fiddle extremely hard. Its one of those things isn't it...anyone can be average or mediocre at it. But to get that something amazing - something special....
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
But bb that's why I am coming to Gundegai - to hear your "something amazing - something special" on the fiddle!
Most instruments are 90% hard work and 10% talent but you have to want to do it. For a while in my life I used to play the guitar for about 5hrs a day. If someone would comment about something I played as showing "talent" (didn't happen too often) - that used to annoy me because its like dismissing the effort I had put in.
As for age I won't talk about my efforts of late on the fiddle but I think I can relate to the whole thing about a sense of urgency because I am running out of time!
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
bb - yeah, when I say that fiddle isn't as hard as people told me it was, I mean that becoming non-horrible at it hasn't been as hard as I thought it would be. I can't speak to being something amazing, or even much good, which I'm certainly not and don't anticipate being in the forseeable future. It's just that from what folks told me, I thought it would be years and years before I'd be able to make any noises that wouldn't send folks running from the room screaming.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I find it irritating that some people find the terms 'intuition' and 'instinct' so vague as to be open to a myriad of interpretations.
I use the term instinct in its very specific definition of an ability to do something that is not learned, it is an ability to do something that is hotwired into your dna, you are born being able to do it.
And no matter what people might think about playing Irish diddley tunes, it is not instinct. I'm afraid that If you really think that some people have an innate ability to do it, you are, quite simply, wrong.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
"I use the term instinct in its very specific definition of an ability to do something that is not learned, it is an ability to do something that is hotwired into your dna, you are born being able to do it."
Michael, is speaking, or singing, or whistling, an 'instinct ' ? Or something you learn ?
dna is just a molecule, a piece of chemistry, it doesn't play music.
Did you mean 'hard wired' ? That's an analogy taken from computers, where you have the distinction between hardware and software.
We are not computers. For one thing, we can reproduce ourselves, biologically. Are we born with an attraction to the opposite sex and desire to have sex, or do we learn it ?
Babies don't have it. It's something that develops as we mature, and like almost everything that humans do, is a highly complex, ever-changing mixture of innate biological stuff, that's been passed to us by DNA, and social and cultural and environmental influences.
We are born with the potential to walk on two legs, but babies still have to learn how to do that, and some adults never stop learning, until they can extend that basic ability into, say, ballet dancing.
To say that being able to play Irish diddley music is an instinct, or is not an instinct, is vastly over-simplifying something that is incredibly complicated and poorly understood. Developmental biologists and similar folks have been arguing over what 'instinct' means, or is, for a century or more.
Although the term is commonly used by ordinary folk, I don't think scientists like to use it, because it has no conceptual precision. It dates from a time long before DNA was discovered, and was popular when Behaviourism was the favoured explanation for what we do.
Behaviourism was demolished, circa 1955, by Noam Chomsky, (which is why he became famous and is the most cited authority).
'Intuition' is even worse that 'instinct', when it comes to precise definition. Somebody says 'Use your intuition' and if you ask them what that is, or where it's located, there's lots of hand waving, and not much clarity...
You said something about goldfinches singing instinctively at the top of the thread...but even birds are not mechanical, or like computers, their songs are not hard-wired, they learn, so that birds in one wood will have a different collection of phrases from birds in another wood, local dialects, rather similar to regional styles of Irish tunes.
A few weeks back, there was a guy on the radio who cares for rescued fledgelings, who plays them CDs of their appropriate songs, for them to learn. Otherwise, when released, they'd have no chance of finding a mate because they'd not have learned the appropriate recognisable song.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Yes, Noam Chomsky took the debate away from the traditional nature v nurture debate, which is essentially the crux of this thread.
But there are still clear examples in nature where a delineation can be made. Bird song is one. There are two types of singers, those that hatch with their song as an innate skill, they sing a recognised song as they mature, even if they have never heard it or even ever socialised with another member of its own species. Other, blackbirds for example, learn their songs by listening, and hence have regional accents etc.
Yes, hot wired/hard wired was clumsy, sorry. But the word innate is very specific. It takes thousands of generations, possibly hundreds of thousands, to evolve an innate ability and some animals have bypassed this long process by learning things and passing this knowledge on instead. Orangutans are born with little knowledge of the forests they are born in, a fear of snakes perhaps, but this is non proven. But by the time they reach maturity, they know the when and whereabouts of hundreds of trees that fruit only once a century. This is one of the reasons orangutan re-introduction programmes are hopeless.
I know the argument is complex, but humans are not born with an innate ability to make music. It can be argued that we have an innate ability to learn and absorb our cultural surroundings, and that this innate ability is strongest in our formative years. But never in a million years would a baby, left to grow up in an isolated room with a violin, ever be able to play it.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Okay, Michael, we're pretty much in agreement on most of that.
Thing is, this isn't a scientific forum. Ordinary folks use words and language in a far looser manner than scientists or philosophers, and music is more about feeling than logic.
I don't know, and I don't think anybody does know, why particular people in particular regions, have particular types of indigenous or ethnic music. It might be that there is something in the DNA that produces a tendency to favour some sounds or scales against others.
I wouldn't entirely dismiss the possibility that there's a genetic factor involved, and Irish people, growing up immersed in their local music, have an advantage. But I don't think I'd dare make any sweeping statement about that. I think nobody yet understands the subject well enough.
There is, after all, tremendous variety and variability amongst humans, as a species, so most generalisations are usually a mistake.
But back to the topic. I don't think that anyone would argue against the observation, that we finding learning new stuff easier in childhood. But the old idea that the brain became 'fixed' at some stage, has been shown to be incorrect. It keeps on re-configuring itself throughout life.
So maybe the ability to learn later in life has more to do with attitude than anything, and cultivating what the zen buddhists call 'beginners mind', (which is, essentially, retaining the openness of a child, the opposite of thinking you already know everything) means you could become moderately proficient at any age.
IMO, it's probably an attitude of wonder, curiosity, experimentation, delight in achievement, that matters most.
I've met loads of adults whose negative attitude prevents them from being able to learn anything new.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Yep, that about sums it up. I too have met loads of adults whose negative attitude prevents them from being able to learn anything new. If you can keep and cultivate the attitude of wonder, curiosity and experimentation that you had when you were a kid, then being a grown up shouldn't hinder you.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I hit the back button and it did not salvage it. Maybe it doesn't work in Firefox.
This is a shorter version of the post that vanished in the cyberspace wormhole.
The idea of instincts has been around since the nineteenth century and is closely associated with Freud, who made it an integral part of his psychodynamic theory. Basically an instinct is a motivational force that drives people to fulfill basic desires. Freud classified things like sex, the "ego-instinct" (the desire for self-preservation), "the death instinct," and certain types of aggression as instincts, which come from a part of the unconscious he called the "id." He changed his theories quite a lot throughout his career, often changing what constituted an "instinct" but he stuck to some of these fundamentals. As a person matures, they develop what Freud called an ego and a superego, which repress and control the instincts. Neuroses then come from instincts bubbling up and being repressed via defense mechanisms which lead to neurotic behaviour.
That is a very simplified version but in any case, psychoanalytoc theory is more or less out of fashion with mainstream psychology, although it is still practiced by a minority of psychologists.* In modern scientific terminology, it's not correct terminology to use instincts to describe human behaviour but it is correct usage to describe bird migration or honeybee dances as instinctive.
Freud would probably make the case that playing music is a defense mechanism for repressed sexual desires.
*There are other psychoanalytic theories than Freud, who was very much a product of his time and place.
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
hilarious! but i have read it. it seems with all this scientific talk the question should be asked "why do some people play music and others not?" i think that anyone could learn to play music well at any age, but for some reason, not everyone does
Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
In a recent post on another thread Ilig had an interesting point, which was:
.....................................................................
"I'm certain that starting late is no insurmountable hurdle. Absolutely you can be as good or better than those who started as kids."
......................................................................
What are people's thoughts on this? How many of you began in mid-life [or later] with little or no musical training? How has the journey been? What were your fears starting out? Were you resistant because of self-defeating 'ageism' or did you tackle it like you were in your teens or twenties.
I've heard other fellow fiddlers say that you just begin to figure out what you're doing by year five and that by year 10 you might start to actually sound like you're playing tradtional music [if you've more or less gone about it the "right" way(s)]. That seems about right in my case. But what about other's experiences?
I also recently heard some heartwarming stories from fellow musicians of their mothers and even grandmothers taking up the fiddle [to pick one instrument] in their late 60s and even into late 70s/early 80s.
So is it never too late to become a decent player, or better late than never? And how 'good' can one really become? [And maybe, after all, becoming good enough to join in is really the point and there's no need to be a star.]
I'd be interested in people's personal journey anecdotes.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I didn't start playing Irish until my late 30s. I played guitar for many years before that, but wasn't even slightly good at it. Getting interested in Irish gave me the motivation to get better as a musician.
I often wish I had started young. Younger people are more malleable, and can pick up new things a bit easier. But being more mature has its benefits too, like analytical skills, and the ability to understand certain aspects of the music better.
I don't think that starting later in life is much of a hinderance, as long as you're dedicated, and can commit the time and energy to learning to play well.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Like Reverend, I came to trad music on mandolin and then banjo late (~43) after many years of playing guitar.
I sometimes wish I had started young, but then I wonder if I'd still be playing if I had? So many peope seem to peak in enthusiasm in their late teens and early twenties and then lose interest after that.
And it is such a great "hobby" for my declining years.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by grego
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Maybe I should have entitled this post "The Frost is All Over"....? for all of us approaching our golden years
I suppose I should have added a bit about my own story in that that I took up fiddle at 40 having never played/learned music in any formal way. It came out of bodhran playing actually. I felt I couldn't really be 'inside' the music unless I played a melody instrument. Bodhran was a natural for me since I was a percussionist as a kid...and...like the Rev says, you never lose that malleablity [or not much] once you had it. So bodhran went well and rapidly. But fiddle was another thing entirely since 1. it involved (or could) involve thinking about music as melody and intonation and dots [as opposed to more or less strictly rhythmic pattterns]. So fiddle has been a long and winding road. Two steps forward and one back as Fiddle4 has coached me here on The Session. But with the help of real life fiddle teachers here and there and dedicated practise [i don't regard it as that...it's fun...so 2-3 hours a day can go by quite nicely] and great tutor resources like Matt Cranitch, Cathal Hayden, kevin burke and Sheila Garry & Brid Crantich's irish session tune cds I think now that it's finally coming together -- a bit of theory blending nicely with a lot of listening....so now, yes, sometimes I even hear the "nyah" . 
It's happening!
Playing fiddle has immensely helped my feeling of and understanding for the music and,weirdly, I swear my bodhran playing is all the better for it...for having learned a melody instrument that is because the approach definitely crosses over...and, yes, bodhran can be played melodically. ;) Somewhat.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I started playing guitar at age 5, started playing professionally at age 14, studied music at a university, and have been playing my whole life.
Now I started playing fiddle just this year, but I already knew how to read music, learn by ear, knew music theory, and basically had the foundation to learn to play pretty easily.
But as to how good a person can become, who can say. All you can do is try and get the most out of the talent you have,
Also, remember there is a difference between playing 20 years and playing the same year 20 times. I'm glad I was young when I first heard that.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I always thought the true gift of music was that it enriched your life until the day you die.
I've known alot of musicians in my life, but I never knew a musician who ever regretted being one.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Ah, Nate...so here's the rub for those of us taking up late in middle years....Can you overcome lack of suppleness and being young, etc through 1. decent practise/listening habits and 2. 10+ years of simply playing the music as it's meant to be played.
Is it more a quesiton of experience then [ie, playing years] vs. any advantage that youth and a previous music background might offer?
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I am an adult learner who aspires to mediocrity on fiddle and box. I may be getting there on fiddle.
When I get discouraged at my slow progress relative to the young pups I tell myself that I am not sure if I practice I'll ever get good, but I am damn sure if I don't practice I won't.
Dan
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by curamach
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I picked up guitar at 40 and mandolin at 42(about 5 or 6 months ago) Never could really read music. I still can't. Though I can dissect it well enough to figure out the notes and eventually play them. But it's a slow process. I prefer to use ABC and a piece of software called Band-in-a-Box to learn from as I don't have a teacher. Both give me music to listen to and dots and/or ABC to work out the rough spots.
Sadly, my guitar playing is atrocious but I've had much more success with the mandolin. I keep it simple and just pick the melody. No chords, nothing fancy but I do try to throw in a triplet here and there where i can.
Sure it would have been nice to start as child but what I really want is a teacher. It's just not affordable right now. So I practice as much as possible. Probably for an average of 2 to 3 hours a day. But on days off, I have my mandolin in hand all day long and have been learning a lot lately.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I think it is easier to learn when you are young because you have fewer responsibilities and have more time to practice.
All the great players I've known said the same thing: at some point in your life you have to spend 8 hours a day practicing for about 4 or 5 years. Once you have done that at some point in your life, you can basically stop practicing and go and play as much as you can.
and that is the hard part. I practiced no less than 8 hours a day for 5 years between the ages of 17 and 22.
And you have to have the thousands of repetitions so that the mechanical aspects of playing are completely on your "autopilot" and you are free to listen (and pay attention to) the other players in the room. I have a hard time with that on the fiddle because the bowing is new to me. I only learned to sing a song while playing fiddle just this last weekend. That's a big breakthrough for me, though, because it means I'm getting comfortable on the fiddle.
But I still have many hundreds if not thousands of hours to go before I can expect to go to Philly or Baltimore and participate in a session with other players. Its just the way it is
but on the other hand, people have more patience and can see the freedom that is at the end of the discipline better when they are older, so as long as you have breath in your lungs and the desire to play, you should do just that.
will you become a concert violinist? probably not, but then you'd have to play all those crazy accidentals if you went that route anyway. So do the best you can and remember the things that are important in this life. Its all any of us can do really.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Like several here, I played other instruments for years, even doing 'Irish' of a sort before coming to ITM and learning box.
When I was a kid, I wanted to play something, I sat down, and I played it. And Remembered it. It happened very quickly.
Still I can sit down on the chirch organ or piano and learn something new with relative ease. Relying on 50 year old synapses I am told.
On the Box, a new intrument even though I learned PA. It has been slow. I think I am better than I am and get nervous in ways I never feel it performing my other insrtruments. I tell my bix teacher that I feel like an eleven year old again when I play in front of him.
My ear and musical memory work as well as ever. The hands are still pretty good. The connections between are the struggle. You think you have it right....and you play the same screw up you did before you focused and repeated and focused and repeated.
He had 12 year old getting ready last month for the Fleadh. I watched a bit. Damn the kid was fast, precise. But he had no interest in the music, had his mother sitting there, and complained that his Mum kept putting him on new instruments hoping he would find a musical home.
But you know. At my age (ouch that sounds awful) I suppose I have to overcome the slow synapses development with attitude. I know I can play ITM and do it well. The wiring has not gotten that far yet.
ITM is fascinating as is the box. Somedays sound good. It is just that Some days I just feel like crying.
But lately Herself with the several hundred ITM CD collection on her Ipod commented that she recognized things I was playing from her collection.
I must be making progress! It must be possible to teach an old f**t new instruments.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I think not. I really believe that playing music is just too wonderful to be limited to those of us fortunate enough to have had lessons as children.
I do a fair amount of writing and teaching on the subject of music within Pagan spiritual life, and I am forever encouraging ritual music that permits everyone's participation at some level, as well as constantly spouting the above with or without the slightest encouragement.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by cathrynb
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Daniel Levitan's book _This is Your Brain on Music_ touches briefly on the topic of early vs. late starters. To paraphrase (and possibly distort - it's been awhile and I don't have the book with me), he mentions that the parts of the brain devoted to learning music "properly" will get reallocated for other functions if they're not used for music at an early enough age. The cutoffage , he says, is considerably greater than it is for learning a first language (if you can't speak a language by age seven, I think, then language will never come naturally to you), but it's not unlimited - I think he gives a cutoff of twenty or so, or just post-adolescence. None of this, of course, is to say that it's pointless to try to learn a first instrument late in life.
The good news is that this age cutoff is for learning a first instrument, and that once you've picked one up, you can learn to play others "fluently", even if you start late in life. I started fiddling in my late twenties, and although I certainly don't sound like I've been playing twenty years, as many fiddlers my age have, I don't think I sound any worse than any children I've heard who have been playing as long as I have. As a child I played recorder for a year or two, and then (classical) piano for eight or nine, and then I went over a decade without playing anything. When I first introduced myself to my fiddle teacher just over two years ago, he asked me if I'd ever played a musical instrument before. I answered in the affirmative, but did so somewhat dismissively, as it's been ages since I've played piano and I was never terribly good at it. But my teacher was encouraged to hear that I had a musical background, however dormant, and I've been pleasantly surprised over the last few years to see how much I've retained and can apply to a new instrument and a new genre.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
i would echo alot of what zippydw says.
its never too late to start, i really believe this
I played guitar (variously) from age of 10, I started playing itm on the banjo 30 years later, so now im playing catch up learning tunes.
One drawback of learning itm late is the vast amount of tunes you need to learn, against the clock, as it were.
it takes time to learn them,time to keep them working well,
and time for them to become a part of you so you can almost play them without thinking.
you do have to dedicate yourself to it.
one thing that seems to happen on the banjo, that i never really got with the guitar...is that if i dont get the chance to play for a few days, when i go back to it i feel very rusty, and the tunes dont come to my fingertips so easily.
whereas with the guitar, its all just *there*, even if i dont play it for a couple of weeks.
this may be down to how long ive been playing both (guitar 30 years, banjo 1 year) but i wonder if its that its a short term memory issue. when youre older, things dont stay in your brain as easily, especially if you drink more at 40 that you did at 10.
also, with itm, every tune is the same, but they are all different. so you are learning/remembering tunes which have many subtle differences, this makes itm more challenging than other types of music - again its a memory thing- i feel such a challenge would sit better on the unfrazzled brain of a 10 year old than a 40 year old guiness drinker.
if you start late, and dedicate yourself it, and you feel, like me, that you are playing catchup, then you can overdo it and hurt yourself by practicing too much (i will expand on this in a separate thread). i have a very sore hand at the moment due to this....
people should always be encouraged to learn,whatever age.
i think sadly, many people think learning an instrument is what your children do, not you yourself.
and it doesnt really matter what level you get to,
if your music only stops someone turning the TV on for an hour, then surely thats a small victory in itself.....
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by knucklehead
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I think the advantage to starting very young, especially if you are being classically trained, is that you are not intimidated, and you pick up the reading and motor skills for playing music with the ease with which you pick up the everyday activities of life. However, after you are about 12 or so, learning music is no easier than it is at any age after 12. From that point on, the only advantage to having started younger is that you get the experience under your belt at an earlier age, so by the time you get older, you have that experience to draw on. But it's never too late to start.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Ailin
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Take up an instrument late in life--no problem. Your playing won't be as polished as someone who has played it for 20-30 years, of course, but you can make enjoyable music. Which is the whole point, if you have a healthy attitude about it.
The big difference with those kids in the CCE videos, or today's adult players who started out young, is that they are steeped in the tradition in a way that an adult beginner just can't be. There's no substitute for a lifetime of practice (and/or subconscious mental "visualization") in a big, rich genre like this one.
On the other hand, those child prodigies and living legends can't be everywhere. So, if there's going to be live Irish music, one of us lesser mortals has to step up and do our best.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by tuckered out
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Ailin's first sentence captures much of what I think is a major advantage to starting young: all beginners sound terrible. Young beginners, unlike adult beginners, have the advantage of not realizing how terrible they sound, and consequently are not inhibited by self-doubt.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
When I was 7 I wanted to play the violin. I was given classical music training. I soloed; I played with orchestras, etc. By the time I got to be 13, I was sick of it. It was all work and no fun. I saw some fiddlers once, and told my classical music teacher I wanted to fiddle. He freaked out. My parents weren’t much help, just followed his lead, so I put the fiddle away, picked up the guitar, and rode my skateboard to the nearest punk rock band.
Fifteen years later, when my first son was born, one St. Patty’s Day with him in the baby seat, I was listening to the Chieftains when it hit me. “Hey son, wanna hear your old man play the fiddle?” He gurgled at me and drooled, so I went ahead and blew the dust off the sucker.
He’s 8 now and I’ll be quite content with fiddling ‘the music’ for the remainder of my time here on the globe.
I will say, despite the stress and misery of intensive classical music training it did give me a wonderful gift that made learning ‘the music’ so much easier as an adult, after a long lay-off.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I have such admiration for anyone who continues to challenge themselves by learning new things well into their dotage. A fellow we play with around town here started playing the whistle when he was 68 years old. He went in to purchase a Native American flute one day only to discover that those hand made beauties cost hundreds of dollars. "Got anything cheaper?" he asked, only to be given a Sodlums Irish whistle. He has been a regular session attendee for the past 5 years now, diligently learning new tunes and steadily improving. His story is currently featured in the latest Treoir magazine.
So no - you're never too old to learn anything new if you have the desire.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I grew up listening to my mother play the guitar and eventually, the pennywhistle, fiddle, banjo, piano and whatever else she could afford to play around with. My aunts, uncles, grandparents, great grandparents and great great grandparents on my mother's side are/were all musicians. My siblings all play an instrument or two. I feel much obliged to this familial immersion in music... I think I got a lot more out of it than any music lessons. Family reunions, church, and get togethers were always held together by music more than anything else.
My mom taught me guitar chords as soon as my hands were big enough to reach them, and then my grandparents paid for piano lessons for a while when I was seven. My teacher thought I was remarkable and talented but said I lacked the patience to make it very far. To this day, I hold that it wasn't impatience but boredom with the instrument and the particular way of learning (classical). I had a terrible tendency to play the notes perfectly while ignoring the the proper rhythm. I think, that had I been learning from ear, rather than sheet music, I never would have done this, since it didn't happen when I learned trad music from my mom when we were playing around.
I continued to play though, eventually without a teacher, until I hit my teens. I then picked up the silver flute and taught myself well enough to play in high school orchestra for a couple years. More classical, more boredom, although I did teach myself a fair number of ITM tunes and enjoyed that greatly. Ran away from home at 15 and took a pennywhistle with me and joined a punk band in which I played the guitar (badly) and sang (also badly). I did much better with the pennywhistle and continued to play it off and on throughout my life for my own amusement. Even when I wasn't playing anything, I would find myself in folk instrument stores just checking out the people and instruments.
I took a five year hiatus from music of any kind when I moved out to the wilderness. I'm now 28 and recently realized how much I had always wanted to play the fiddle but had thought I'd never be able to afford a decent instrument. I'm now the owner of three fiddles (anyone want to buy/trade for a 3/4 size I got by accident?) and am sawing merrily away at my favorite appalachian, SW mountain, irish and scottish tunes. I'm also teaching myself mandolin and teaching it to my 8 year old daughter simultaneously.
I can read music on an intermediate type level about as well as I've ever been able to. It seemed to stay stored there in my brain pretty well. I kind of regret that. I really really really wish I'd learned to play more by ear as a child. I think I'd be much better off. Now I'm attempting to train myself to do just that. I DO think that would have been easier to learn as child.
So much has to do with the listening, and any of us can do that to varying degrees. It does require a lot of concentration, focus and commitment though, especially for those not raised with that kind of listening as a standard thing.
My mother always tried to communicate that the music wasn't a mathematical thing to be done in a mechanistic way (though it could be) but something that sings in the blood and in the instrument, that's just waiting to be expressed. Like how the best art isn't created but rather revealed as something that was always waiting to happen. She thought that traditional music especially was like a living thing that spoke through the musician. Understanding that now takes the pressure off of me to feel like I need to be endlessly perfect and to focus on listening and channeling the music through me. It's humbling and magical all at once -- the music is ancient, and it doesn't care how old we are. It's in us and waiting to emerge.
That's my long winded way of saying that we're never too old to remember the music.
Now, if only my fingers would cooperate with the music ;)
~Kiva
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Sweetbriar
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Never too late. Why limit yourself when there's fun to be had? Go us!
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Joanne Ward
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Judging by the eye-rolling my daughter gives me when I suggest she practice her harp, the main difference between learning young and learning at a more mature age is that, for the older learner, the goal is see-able and worth it. I don't think young kids understand that practice can be entertaining in itself. Half an hour on the harp and my daughter is ready to wander off. Half an hour playing ITM with my husband means my hands are just warmed up and I'm ready to tackle something at speed, or try something new.
I've played instruments since I was 8 -- silver flute and percussion in school, and then I taught myself instruments when i was in college -- different voices of recorders and mandolin -- then took piano lessons in my 30s. I didn't begin playing ITM until about 6 years ago, when I was 49. Before that, it was Renaissance music and classical things. I still love that stuff and occasionally still drag out my old books, but ITM is what I willingly practice consistently.
Most of the people in my group took up their ITM instruments after their hair turned gray, and they enjoy the music with the same enthusiasm as anybody who's an expert at 25. Will we ever be brilliant? No. We've missed a lot of years playing the music, but we aren't bored with it or only playing it because it's all we know, either. Maturity comes with an appreciation of process and complexity. It's a trade-off, but always worth it. Learning anything -- even how to use a computer or an iPod -- keeps your mind alive.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Mandogal
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
This is a topic that is near and dear to me.
I took 2 years of piano lessons in elementary school and hated them. But I kept playing piano anyway. I eventually taught myself to play at about a Grade VI level (in my own mind), but haven't played much in the last 20 years.
Then, about 2 years ago, on my 41st birthday, I decided to take up the fiddle. It helped that I could read music, but learning to play the right note without frets and with a bow is a continuing challenge. But a few people have remarked how much better I've gotten lately (which I interpret as "you're not nearly as awful as you used to be"!)
The trick for a new fiddler is to find easy tunes to play that people like to listen to. I think if you practice a lot with a good teacher, you can play simple tunes in public much sooner than you think.
What inspired me was someone else in a similar forum who said "In ten years, I'll have been playing for ten years." Sure, I wish I'd started when I was a kid, but at least now I can say I've been playing for two years.
Just do it! And keep us posted on your journey, too.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Merry Mary
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I started music (guitar & piano) at 13; double bass at 15; all the band instruments in my 30s; began ITM on flute at 54; began bagpipes (GHB) this year, at 57. I'll probably start something else in my 60s.
While it's true that we aren't as supple as kids, we are much more focused and determined than most kids are. You can't turn back the clock, so instead fill the years ahead of you with music.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I started to play the fiddle aged 62 with no previous musical experience of any kind. I`ve now been playing for just over two years, I can sight read and hold my own....just.... in the circles in which I play. I do have considerable experience in education in all sectors and can confidently say that mature starters have considerable advantages over those who start when they are chidren.Firstly, adult learners have considerable more motivation and determination than juniors. An adult getting a mark of 60% in some exam will be disappointed and want to know where marks have been lost, a schoolchild is likely to think that 60% is an excellent mark. Secondly, a retiree like myself has much more time to spend on pracice than the young, two hours a day is easy for me to fit in, a schoolchild with demands of school, play, and growing up generally, will find it far more difficult.Thirdly, a lare starter is likely to be much more affluent than a schoolchild and will be able to afford a reasonable full size instrument from the start. The best advice I received when starting....3 days after I had picked up the fiddle for the first time......was to buy a good fiddle if I felt I was serious about playing. It would be easier to play and make a much nicer and therefore encouraging sound, that a student cheapie. Fourthly the cerebral side of playing comes much more easily, I learned to read music very quickly and I can grasp the structure of tunes/music much faster than the juniors I come into contact with.
The major downside of being old doesn`t seem to be lack of flexibility or anything like that, but a failing memory which makes it hard to learn tunes, it`s a much longer process than for younger players. I find learning by ear extremely difficult but I`m not sure that`s a function of age, and it is beginning to improve. Anyway , where I live (far north of Scotland)playing from music is the norm.
Major problem that I have found as a late starter is the attitude of some of my peers. These tend to be adult players of average competence who seem unwilling or unable to accept that you can start late and be able to play. I assume that if you are one of these people then it must be enormously satisfying to your ego to hold the view that you cannot be "averagely competent" without years of training as a junior.
Hope this doesn`t upset too many people.
# Posted on August 26th 2008 by Old Codger
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I was thinking that you could divide those who play/are learning (same thing) this music into two distinct camps: Those that want play and Those that can't be arsed. Regardless of age.
But then I read through the discussion and disagreed with myself.
I now think that you can divide those who play/are learning (same thing) this music into two distinct camps: Those that listen, and those that "don't listen" / "find it difficult to play by ear" (same thing).
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
When I was younger I played in some rock and roll bands that recorded (see profile for details). I stopped playing because I didn't think I was any good and I certainly was not a musician. So, I sold all my guitars and amplifiers and moved on with my life.
In 2006, I went to my 40th prep school reunion and ran into an old friend who is a musician. He was back in the area and told me I should come to an Irish session near my house that he played at. So....I went to the session for a while and really liked the music. I've always liked Iriash music, but had been never to a session.
Well, a year and a half went by, I borrowes a guitar and started to learn some tunes at someone's house. I found it very intimidating, but really enjoyed it. I finally accumulated a little cash and bought myself my first acoustic guitar. I had it at the session one night and the woman who ran the session stopped the session and made me sit down and play. I was mortified, but I played, and decided to keep playing.
The best advice I got was to listen to the music. I have tought myself some music theory, and learned to read music a little bit, but after a year and a half, I can pretty much figure out most tunes by ear and play them in the right key. I am a work in progress, but I will say that the advice to learn by ear was very good advice indeed.
So....I am playing 5 sessions a week, have added a couple of contra dances to the mix and am enjoying myself immensely. And I ahve discovered after all these years of not playing....that perhaps I am a musician after all. I have my wife to thank for all this...if she hadn't left me and my 3 children 6 years ago, I never would have started to play music again. A true gift!
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Bad typing, but you get the point!
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I turn 61 in a month, so it is never too late to learn.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I had been playing piano for approximately thirty years when some local musicians started an Irish Session here in 1995. Before these musicians started this Session, I didn't even know that there were such things as Irish Jam Sessions.
After attending a workshop on Folk Keyboard in 1981 which was taught by Triona ni Dhomhnaill, I had bought a copy of O'Neill's and was trying to play some of the thousands of tunes in that collection by myself. I didn't know that there was anyone else here who liked this music before 1995.
Before these musicians started this local Session, I had played piano at various local jam sessions at which I had played many different types of music as well as earning a music degree from a local university.
When I saw the poster announcing an Irish Jam Session at a seafood restaurant, I was intrigued and decided that I would go. I sat there quietly all evening and listened. While I listened, I noticed that all of the musicians played by ear and they didn't use O'Neill's or any other sheet music.
At the end of the session, I told the musicians what I played and asked if I might participate in their next session. They said yes and I have been playing piano more-or-less irregularly at the local Irish Session since then.
Thanks to my extensive background, training, and experience, I was able to learn how to fit in quickly at the Irish Sessions although I was playing an atypical, non-traditional instrument.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Death, or severe dissability, is the only cut off. Go for it. Others can argue who belongs in Irish culture, and who doesn't. Ignore 'em, unless and until it is your whole Trad-playing community trying to persuade you to do something else with your energies. Otherwise, give it a go. All the best.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
There is a guy in one of our local orchestras that started playing the double bass when he was 76... he's now 96!
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by davydd
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
The big difference between many of us and wonderful, talented12 year old players....many (I am avoiding the 'of us', I like to think that, but know there were kids who were better) ...are playing, but have many other things going on.
How many of 'us' are encouraging those 12 year olds... IF we are are great players, encouraging them. If we are talented 12 year olds in the body of a fifty something, we are learning and giving them an example that no matter how good you are, you never stop learning.
Atahualpa ( and I thought giving our daughter the name 'Deirdre' was complicated!) has it right. 'Death , or severe disability'...tough thing to think about. But I am going for 250....and making folks listen to ITM from my box the whole time...
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
In my experience, the kids don't question (at least on how to play), whereas the adults tend to over think what they are doing. It is kinda like the argument for the gymnasts in the olympics being 16 or over. I heard it explained that the younger kids don't understand the ramifications of what they are doing, how hard it is. They just have fun doing it.
I've tried telling adults that want to learn to play fiddle to try and relax, empty their minds, and just play. a zen thing.
That said, when I have been to fiddle contests and heard the junior div. (usually 9-13 yr olds), I just want to put my fiddle back in the case for a long time!! There are a couple of small fry that are phenomenal. One of their teachers explained that they don't know it's hard.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
and by the way, 12 year olds today are much busier than most adults I know. They have school, homework, music lessons, sports, etc. At least that is what I've experienced.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I started to learn fiddle at 65 with no musical experience. I've been playing for 5 years mostly learning from a tutor book. I really love the fiddle and the music. Progress is slow but it is happening. I now play with some other guys of about the same level and it's great fun.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Iomhair
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
THANK YOU for this thread. I no longer feel alone.
WE keep the tradition alive...
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
It's worth mentioning that one of the reasons late comers can excel is that this music is - relatively speaking - not technically demanding.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I was expecting to find a post from my dad on here. He had a good few decades behind him when he took up the flute and ITM. Now people think he must have taught me (it was originally the other way around) because he's so good. I think it's a combination of natural musicality, the will to succeed and practice, all of which he has in abundance, whereas I'm kinda lazy!
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by SineadE
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Nice story Sinead
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by Donough
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Speaking of Zen and willingness to learn, I remember this advice [it might have been in relation to being a haiku poet not sure, but musician/writer/etc could easily fill in the blank], which was:
a real artist [and let us count any of us who embark on this at whatever age, as artists in the true sense of the word] always *has the eternal mind of a beginner*. This goes even for someone who's a pro at whatever they do....they always have the mind of a beginner,meaning they are always open to ideas and new things in the same way children are. Everything is new and interesting to children. I think it's amazing that the people here have managed to keep that going...that curiosity about life and sounds,e tc.
It seems to me that adulthood is so often about "putting off" or dampening those qualities that made childhood so productive: openness, wonder, curiosity.
Especially curiosity about the world.
As a great journalist once said: "Always have the mind of a five year old." Meaning, like the zen comment above, having the courage to NOT know it all as an adult. Goes a long way in being open to learning and enjoying ITM I think?
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
ps. I agree with Donough, lovely story Sinead. Great humour in that....
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
llig leahcim,
"It's worth mentioning that one of the reasons late comers can excel is that this music is - relatively speaking - not technically demanding."
I think that's a pretty inaccurate appraisal of the music, and quite a dangerous statement to put out thread about adult beginners learning.
The fluctuations of tonality and intonation in Bobby Casey's playing, the complexity of melodic variation in the music of Tommy Potts, and the downright physical instrument command of Coleman and Touhey - technique is evident in pretty much all the leading exponents of the music, and equal to that of any other genre of music. To lessen ITM by saying it's not technically demanding says more about your ability to understand it than it does about the music itself.
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
To play the music is not a challenge. To play it very well is. I think that's the distinction Mr. Llig usually tries to make.
It is music of the people, don't we often make a stink about that? Working folks would come home after a long day and have some tunes and take a spin on the dance floor for some fun. It's designed to be easy to enjoy and participate in. It's like that boardgame Othello. "A minute to learn, a lifetime to master..."
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Worzel, do you really think that I "lessen" the music by saying that it is not technically demanding. Just listen to yourself there.
Are you really saying that to stand shoulder to shoulder along side any of the musics of the world, a music has to be technically demanding?
# Posted on August 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
What is "a leading exponent of the music?" I find myself suddenly confronted by an utterly alien concept here.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
oh come on steve ... a leading exponent is someone who leads the music in an altered direction. Matt Molloy say.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Shall we put them on pedestals then? Like the Carthys, say?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
no
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Thank God.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
And anyway, is it OK to not like Matt Molloy?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
there's no such thing as god
(apart from matt molloy of course)
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I agree about the god bit. I might agree about Matt too. What position does he play for Liverpool?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
ITM fiddlers use only a small part of the instrument's capabilities - which
for me is still quite a challenge! Listen to the Bartok Sonata for solo
violin or anything by Ysaye, or a bit of jazz improv from Ponti
and you won't so impressed by Fergal Scahill, etc. any more!
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Hup
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
That's right. A small part of the instruments' (possesive plural, ie, not just fiddles) capabilities, but just as much, if not more, musicality.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I didn't read all of this, but for the last few bits I think Michael is right saying the technical demands of Irish music are, relatively speaking, simple.
When I took up the pipes at twenty one I was told it was too late to really get it. Maybe so, I think I did OK given the circumstances but I have taught twelve year olds who grew up with music around them, Paddy Canny and the like playing in their kitchen, who had an instinctive understanding of the music that would be attainable for a relatively late starter only by hard work and deep immersion.
Willie Clancy, in an interview with RTE, said the key was to start early, as a young fella, if you really want to get to the bottom of it. I think he was right.
Which doesn't mean to discourage late starters but to really get the understanding and the nuance of great music, it takes a lifetime.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I disagree with Willie Clancy. If there is a "key" that unlocks this music, then that key is simple immersion. The idea that if you missed out on it when you were a kid, then it will be locked away from you for ever cannot be true. And it's this kind of doctrined exclusivity that often stifles talent.
And to say it takes a lifetime is misleading. How long is a lifetime? What if you die young? What if you've been playing for 70 years but only once a month for a couple of hours? What if you've been playing and listening for 8 hours a day for two years?
I'm well acquainted with the concept of never stopping learning, but you cannot extrapolate that into saying you can only ever "have it" at the moment of death.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Michael I think it's like learning language, the native speaker will be able to attain a total instinctive grasp of the nuances. Late starters may by and large master the language through hard work and immersion but will rarely get to write great poetry in it.
People like Potts and Casey, they were products of their environment combined with their personalities.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
What about Samual Becket writing in French?
I never said it wasn't harder to take it up late
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I knew you'd come up with someone like that so I said 'rarely' .
Fact remains that immersion from a young age will give you a headstart that if it can be overcome at all it can only be overcome by total immersion and dedication.
This doesn't mean late starters won't be able to reach certain technical or even musical levels, I do think they'll never reach the same instinctive natural musical fluency that early starters may reach if they stick with it.
I knew a German man who spent his younger years designing the Messerschmidt 109 and took up the pipes when he was 80. He played them for 29 years, until he died last year. He never became great on them, or even half decent. He had a great time with them though.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
The point is not to be good
This thread is too long already and nobody will read what I've written. Age is unimportant.
You don't play so that you can play well. You play to free your soul.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by cocus
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
You play to give tunes wings, make them fly. That's playing well, that frees your soul.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
All I thought I knew when I started playing at 42 were three polkas. Now I don't think I know any tunes at all. I tell people that I play hundreds, but I don't know a single one really. But I love playing them not at all properly. All my friends play them not at all properly either, but in a different not-at-all-properly way to me and to each other. This is called having fun. I love it. You get out of it exactly what you put in. Round my way I doubt whether one person in a hundred who hears me could predict to within 40 years how long I've been playing.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
"they'll never reach the same instinctive natural musical fluency"
Hmmm, "never". I simply can't agree with that. It's such a negative concept. You simply cannot say to someone that they'll "never" achieve instinctive natural musical fluency.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I said 'never the same' as compared to who are immersed from birth not just 'never' as in 'at all'.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I'm still disagreeing with you. I think that if you are a late starter, you can reach the same instinctive natural musical fluency as those who are immersed from birth.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Seems to me that that capacity for music is innate in us--something we all do as kids, clapping out rhythms, singing, etc. And it would be pretty odd for someone to grow up in an environment devoid of music. Seems more likely that we're all immersed in music for most of our lives. The fluency part only becomes "difficult" when we decide to specialize in one genre and then pick up some Rube Goldberg conglomeration of wood, horse's tail, and wire.
But if you immerse yourself in that genre and woodshed on the Goldberg invention that happens to call your name, anyone can reach fluency in about 10,000 quality hours. It's up to you whether you fit those hours into 4 years, 6, 10, or 20.
There's also a difference between being fluent with music and being a prodigy at it. Go find a YouTube clip of Chris Thile playing mandolin at 6 years old and then come talk about a "lifetime" of immersion. A few prodigies are simply astoundingly quick and intuitive. A few of them also put in hours of woodshedding. They achieve in a few years more than most of us do over decades. That prodigious talent doesn't always reveal itself in early youth. Consider Frankie Kennedy.
So the nuance and charisma of Bobby Casey's playing isn't just about immersion and woodshedding. He was one in a million, a rare talent, a stand out. The analogy to language is apt, I think. Every language has its handful of gifted poets and songwriters, but that isn't the only bar we measure "fluency" against. Few of us can write with the elan of a Shakespeare or Joyce or cummings, but that doesn't and shouldn't stopper us from speaking and writing.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
that's how I see it, too, Will. I've been fortunate enough to play with some really talented players. There are people that just have "it" and that's just the way it is.
but that doesn't mean the rest of us should all just give up
not everybody is equal. That would be communism or something. All you can really do is try and reach your own potential, whatever that may be.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I agree with that Will, I intentionally mentioned Heinz Braun who lived in Mooncoin and took great pleasure in playing the pipes.
I do think however it is burying your head in the sand if you think someone taking up the fiddle (or anything else really) has equal opportunities to someone who was immersed from their early days.
That shouldn't stop anyone from taking up an instrument and enjoying playing a few tunes. But I don't buy into the big equalizer- we're all fine- as long as you enjoy it it's all good attitude. Some people will forever be crap at it, some will be great and most will be just mediocre and that's the reality of it.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
'taking up the fiddle late in life' was meant to go there, to make sense of the whole sentence.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Hmmm. I'm not sure "medicore" is the word I would use to describe the wide middle ground between crap and great.
For example, I would include myself in the large number of fiddlers who can play this music convincingly and with fluency, albeit not with the flair and "greatness" of a Bobby Casey or Tommy Peoples.
Similarly, when I think of pipers, Paddy Keenan strikes me as one of the greats. Now please don't take offense, Peter, but you're no Paddy Keenan. And I say that only to emphasize that your playing certainly transcends mediocrity. Your piping is very, very good--convincing, authentic, fluent. I genuinely enjoy listening to your playing on "They'll Be Good Yet."
All I'm suggesting is that immersion, woodshedding, and obsession with the music can lift you out of the mediocre masses whether or not you were born in the genre. And you yourself are a good example of that. The Paddy Keenans and Bobby Caseys and Chris Thiles have something extra that sets them apart even from other very good players, whether any of them were born to it or not.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
When I talk about people becoming intimately acquainted with the music I think of people like Micho Russell or Kitty Hayes, Mary Haren and the like who had an acute sense of rhythm and melody, people who can paint the whole picture with a few simple brush-strokes. And it's that aspect I am talking about, that acute and instinctive understanding of what makes a tune work and that's what comes from absorbing the language of music at a very young age.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I do think that someone taking up the fiddle (or anything else really) has equal opportunities to someone who was immersed from their early days. It's harder yes, but the opportunity to be just as good is certainly there.
Yes, I agree that some people will forever be crap at it, and the odd one will be great. But I will not concede that if you start late, you are doomed never to reach the ability you could have gained if you started as a kid. Yes, it will be harder work, but potential is potential. Physical limitations like arthritis aside, potential does not diminish with age.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Well said, Michael.
But I see Peter's point too.
Interesting discussion....
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Human beings are one of the species on this planet with the least amount of instincts. We are mot even born with the ability to suckle, that's one of the first things we learn. Compare that to a goldfinch that even if it is hand reared and never heard or seen another goldfinch in it's entire life can still sing so splendidly, like all the other goldfinches.
You talk about the "instinct" to play music. You use the wrong word. It is learned. It is all learned.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I think that if you want to say that everyone has the same basic opportunity to work hard and get to a level where they can play an instrument, then yes, anyone who stays with it and practices the right things can get to be a good player
but....
there are people who are just on another level.
for instance, I will never be able to play like Bobby Casey even if I lived to be a million and practiced every day from now until the end of the world.
and I'm a pretty musical guy
but that's just the way it is. those people are rare, but the better a player I became, the more often I'd find myself on a bandstand playing with guys like that.
Sooner or later it always became apparent that some of these guys had something very special going on.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
there is that 'otherness' to people like a Kitty Hayes or a Micho Russell -- somethng that sets them apart. Interesting examples, because, from what I've heard of both I wouldn't say it's pyrotechnics. They don't blind you with their speed of 'fancy' playing, but whatever it is in their music it's something that's light years beyond mere technique. I'm sure they worked hard and long and took the music seriously but perhaps too they were just incredibly keen listeners who knew where to take the music, and how to get that music [in them] out.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by mtodd
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
you know mtodd, I've even known alot of guys who were fantastic musicians, but had other things in their life that kept them from ever getting famous, or having that "complete package" the record companies like to find. some of them simply wanted to raise families and didn't want to be on the road anymore.
So on top of being great players, alot of people who become famous playing music also have a good business sense and a good bit of luck to be at the right place at the right time, and are able to throw thier hat in the ring and go, too.
Sometimes you just have to say that they were born to it. With all the gifts they had what else could they be?
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
'It's all learned'
Is it Michael? There are several levels to that.
I remember one occasion that struck me deeply: Five years or so ago I was teaching Brid O Donohue's eldest daughter 'The West Wind', one of Willie Clancy's tunes. The girl had started coming to me to learn he pipes when she was twelve but had started the whistle, informally, when four. Anyhow, I played the tune through once while she listened, second time around she started playing along with the phrases she had, third time she had the tune sussed. In the third part however she turned the phrase inside out and create a lovely contrary variation that would not have been out of place in Willie's own version. It was a moment that lifted me out of my seat, it really was.
She didn't know she did it, she had sussed the structure of the tune and filled in the notes she hadn't picked up. That is what I call an instinctive insight and I care feck all if the choice of words is wrong.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Ok Michael - name some people who have taken up the fiddle later in life and become incredible at it.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I never ask people how long they've been playing.
That's an interesting story kilfa. A twelve-year-old got a bit of a tune wrong on the third time through hearing it, and substituted a phrase that sounded just as good or better than the original. But anyone with a half decent knowledge of the music would do the same. What would really be impressive would be to get it exactly right on the third time through, then throw in the variation on the fourth time through.
But I digress, we know the music isn't about being impressive. Where in your story do you not think the twelve-year-old had not learned to substitute a phrase they didn't quite get with one that still fitted? Yes, there are several levels to learning stuff. Your example is one where there was no formal learning, just subconscious immersion. But it's still learning.
Anyway, It's difficult to debate with someone who cares feck all if their choice of words is wrong.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I suspect that Michael is being biologically more accurate in his use of the terms learned and instinctive and that he and Peter are crossing swords unnecessarily here. There is no way I can possibly quote evidence, but it seems apparent to me that a child with a penchant (define - heheh) for the music will pick stuff up (define - heheh) much quicker than an adult. I started very late and my young son used to disgust me with the apparent ease and speed with which he learned to play both tunes and accompaniment (and there can be nothing instinctive about accompaniment can there...huh?) Being soaked in Eye Tee Emm from an early age does not develop instincts. It develops an all-round knowledge and appreciation of the music that makes it far easier to be comfortable in the idiom. Adult learners are struggling both with the technicalities of their instruments, quite often, as well as trying urgently to pick up tunes. A bloke who plays the fiddle with us (and who's well past the bloom of youth) has only been playing Irish for a couple of years but he is a consummate fiddle player already and hasn't got the burden of trying to master the instrument as well as learning tunes, so he's just as quick as most kids I've come across when it comes to getting into this music. It may not be very helpful to say it, but the problem is we're all different.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I came to this music in the latter half of my life (unless I live an unusually long time). And I became good enough to enjoy it. Maybe not good enough to pass muster with some self appointed music expert, or professor from some college, or member of some cultural organization, but good enough to enjoy playing it by myself, good enough to share it with some like minded musicians, good enough that people enjoy listening to it, good enough to play for dancers. And in the end, since this is folk music, music for folks to enjoy, isn't that all that is important? I can play well enough to enjoy myself, and bring beauty and joy to my life through music. And that is all that matters.
In this world, too many people don't experience this because people tell them they will never be great at it, that you need to be brought up in certain culture, that you must do it this way and must do it that way. Instead, lets reach out to people of all ages and abilities, help them to attain whatever level of competence they can, and show them that making music is a blessing, that music is not a commodity just to be listened to or consumed, but something everyone can make, and enjoy making.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I knew posts ago Michael and myself are thinking pretty much along the same lines with only minor disagreement but some issues separating us. It doesn't harm making the point though.
Anyhow, I agree early absorption is more learning than 'instinct' and I possibly should have said early absorption is the element that lies at the base of developing an intuitive understanding.
Then again, maybe I was unwittingly making my own point about language and finer nuance.
There's no clear cut answer to the initial question. It depends where you want to take it, there's a difference between enjoying what you're doing, scraping along in a big session and playing alone eking emotions out of remote corners of a melody, bending and reshaping a tune with taste and insight.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I like it, but I'm going to change it slightly:
Early absorption is the best element that can sit at the base of developing an intuitive understanding. However, if you missed out on that, an equal intuitive understanding can be gained in later life through absorption coupled with dedication. Where ever you want to take it.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I used to think that, now I am not sure anymore.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I find it quite amusing that the differences between llig and kilfarboy seem to revolve around concepts like 'intuition' and 'instinct' which are so vague as to be open to myriad interpretations...
I think it was Gregory Bateson who was asked what an instinct is.
He replied, 'It's an explanatory principle'.
'What does it explain ?'
He answered, 'Nothing'.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
They are vague concepts allright. I mentioned Micho and Kitty Hayes who both had that natural elegance and insight in the music they played. It's that special something that comes from being around and immersed in music. I called this, instinctive or intuitive because neither of those two could put words to what they were doing but 'knew' what was right and what didn't suit.
Both were probably extraordinary examples but it's something you find to an extend in both young and older musicians who have music around them all the time. That ready understanding of a tune.
I have in the past taught at the Willie Clancy week and can assure you there's a difference between people who have it (whatever you call it) and people who are late starters or those who are not around music much.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Another factor in all this is that people who are going to be drawn to this music or to a particular instrument probably respond to that draw at their first (or nearly first) exposure to it. For most people so-inclined, that happens when they're kids because we're routinely surrounded by "exposure opportunities." For example, I was 7 when I was first struck by the sound of fiddle (on a recording) and knew I wanted to play that instrument. No turning back.
People who start an instrument later in life either never felt that call earlier, or they ignored it. Neither of those responses to an exposure opportunity is going to make you a fluent musician, and they'll be hard to overcome even if you do eventually immerse yourself in music. Being oblivious to your bliss is *not* the path to fluency.
Also, there are lots of people who dabble in music, who think that an hour of playing a week is "plenty," and who don't bother learning to really listen. They're content to just scratch the surface. I don't think it's fair to include these folks in the same statistical sample as people who immerse themselves. It skews the results.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Unless you grow up in Colorado and want to play the uilleann pipes. If I had the resourcefulness at 7 that I had at 21 that is necessary to obtain a set when you live in the middle of nowhere (Irish music-wise), I would have started at 7. I also would have started maybe in high school or at the beginning of college if I hadn't been told that the instrument was so difficult there was no point in attempting to learn to play it. I had to be old enough as well to have more of a f*ck you attitude, do what I could to find a set (living on the East Coast at the time helped immensely) and just go for it.
I am just illustrating that there are many reasons why people do not start young even though they may feel that call earlier and did not respond to it until they were older.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Silver Spear, that is, in part, my point though. When first gripped by that passion, some people just won't take no for an answer. They're not discouraged by anything. Sure it helps if the people around you are supportive right off the bat, and if your passion happens to coincide with the culture you happen to live in. But not all "child prodigies" get such a head start. Some of them faced the same challenges you did, but they dug down and did it anyway.
In short, you ignored the call at first. Yes, there are thousands of perfectly reasonable reasons for ignoring the call. But for some people, none of those reasons matter. They just get after it.
That said, some of us are just late bloomers in the chutzpah department. So now you're doing it. Will you be older when you reach your potential than if you had started sooner? Yes. Can you still reach your potential? Certainly, if you put the time and passion into it. Good on you!
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
'Also, there are lots of people who dabble in music, who think that an hour of playing a week is "plenty," and who don't bother learning to really listen. They're content to just scratch the surface. I don't think it's fair to include these folks in the same statistical sample as people who immerse themselves. It skews the results.'
Yet who hasn't met the old farmer who sits in the corner who was a great dancer when he went to the housedances, loves to listen but never had time, money or the inclination to play but who knows exactly and very detailed what is going on and may even be tempted to pick up a whistle and try blow a few notes to show you something and when he does goes right to the heart of the matter and shows he's soaked in music, even while he doesn't play.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Sure, Peter, but he's immersed, right through to his marrow. He's *listened.* So he's not in that group of people who, as I said, "don't bother to really listen."
And he'd probably have made a brilliant player....
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I have a few neighbours like that, men between their forties and sixties, they learned to play when in National School but never actively kept it up. Love music, are always around it but are not known as musicians. Yet if you manage to coax them into trying a tune something really lovely comes out.
# Posted on August 29th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I still think your categorizations are too broad, Will. Although it may well be some measure of defensiveness on my part recognizing some truth to it as I am usually pretty annoyed with myself for not starting earlier.
But I don't necessarily think all the late starters who posted on this thread either just dabble or ignored "the call" and therefore will never be able to be fluent in the music because of their reaction to "exposure opportunities."
# Posted on August 30th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I said it before, and will say it again, as long as you become good enough to enjoy playing, you are good enough! The problem is not starting at an advanced age, it is the sad fact that too many people never get started at all.
# Posted on August 30th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
As the story has it: 'Do you want to play to please yourself or do you want to play to please the others?'
Where do you set your standards? I surely have a few instruments I enjoy playing that I won't let myself be seen with playing in public.
# Posted on August 30th 2008 by <>-_-_-<>
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Good point kifarboy, there are some things I play for fun on my own that are NOT ready to take out in public (yet). Naturally, in addition to playing for your own enjoyment, you have to know your limits, and try not to destroy someone else's enjoyment with playing that doesn't meet a certain standard!
# Posted on August 30th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I'm with TheSilverSpear - I started wanting to play the violin when I was eight; my mother wouldn't let me, and put me at a piano instead. I wasn't in much of a position to disagree. By the time I was eighteen, I was a mediocre piano player who didn't much enjoy playing the piano, and had been told by many, many people that I was too old to learn to play the violin properly. I believed them, in part because my halfhearted and dismal attempts at learning to play an instrument I had no love for left me believing that I had no talent for music. At twenty-eight, I took up the fiddle, figuring that the worst thing that could happen was it would cost me a few hundred dollars for lessons I could easily afford in order to discover that I still couldn't play the fiddle. I haven't looked back. Part of me wishes I'd started earlier; but part of me is convinced that I'm driven largely by the fact that I feel I need to make up for lost time. I went twenty years wishing I played the fiddle. I didn't ignore the call; I just resigned myself to not being able to do anything about it.
# Posted on August 31st 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
hey TD&M - you stole my story! I got stuck playing piano too even though there were two fiddles in the attic which I desperately wanted to try. I have them both finally - I've been at it about 8 years now and I think you have something there with the making up for lost time. I went far too long believing I was too old to play - no one who has some time for it and can hack the first couple of years is too old to start
# Posted on August 31st 2008 by airport
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I think our stories are even more similar. I played French horn from age 7 to 13/14 and was rubbish at it (to be fair, I never practiced very much because while French horns sound very pretty, their parts in band music and classical music are usually mindnumbingly dull). I also was in choir for about five years, which was fine, and an a cappella group for a semester, which was not fine. I then extrapolated my failure as a French horn player and an a cappella singer to believing that I was a rubbish musician generally so when I was told that uilleann pipes were one of the hardest instruments, ever, to learn, I was rather dissuaded from learning them for a while. As TDM said, I did not ignore the call so much as look at the evidence from my previous musical ventures and conclude for too many years (I see this in hindsight now) I was too musically-challenged to learn an instrument as challenging as the pipes.
# Posted on August 31st 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Yes. My fiddle teacher is fantastic for a thousand reasons, but chief among them is the fact that he never for a moment gave me any indication that he thought that adults were incapable of learning to play the fiddle well. And you know, while the fiddle beats me up daily, it's just not as hard as people (none of whom actually play the fiddle, mind you) seemed to think it would be. I can make music that I and others enjoy listening to, which is more than a lot of people thought I'd be able to do after a scant two years and change. And yeah, like you, SilverSpear, the main reason I never got any good at playing the piano was because I spent maybe an hour a week at the piano. And the reason I seldom practised piano was because **I wasn't motivated to play the piano**. Yeah, fiddle is challenging. So are pipes, from everything I've heard. But do you know what's always been the most challenging thing of all, for me anyway? *Forcing myself to do things I have no interest in doing.* I wish I'd realized that it was lack of motivation, not lack of ability, that had stunted my growth as a musician so long ago.
(Oh, SilverSpear, I too am a failed acapella singer: eight years ago I got rejected during an audition for an acapella choir and went years thinking I couldn't sing. Turns out I can sing; I just have an awkward range and don't follow directions all that well, so while I'm pretty good at coming up with harmonies on the fly (which is useful at sessions), I'm not so good at following a choir conductor's directions.)
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
And you know, while the fiddle beats me up daily, it's just not as hard as people (none of whom actually play the fiddle, mind you) seemed to think it would be. - TDM
I find the fiddle extremely hard. Its one of those things isn't it...anyone can be average or mediocre at it. But to get that something amazing - something special....
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
But bb that's why I am coming to Gundegai - to hear your "something amazing - something special" on the fiddle!
Most instruments are 90% hard work and 10% talent but you have to want to do it. For a while in my life I used to play the guitar for about 5hrs a day. If someone would comment about something I played as showing "talent" (didn't happen too often) - that used to annoy me because its like dismissing the effort I had put in.
As for age I won't talk about my efforts of late on the fiddle but I think I can relate to the whole thing about a sense of urgency because I am running out of time!
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by Donough
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
bb - yeah, when I say that fiddle isn't as hard as people told me it was, I mean that becoming non-horrible at it hasn't been as hard as I thought it would be. I can't speak to being something amazing, or even much good, which I'm certainly not and don't anticipate being in the forseeable future. It's just that from what folks told me, I thought it would be years and years before I'd be able to make any noises that wouldn't send folks running from the room screaming.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I find it irritating that some people find the terms 'intuition' and 'instinct' so vague as to be open to a myriad of interpretations.
I use the term instinct in its very specific definition of an ability to do something that is not learned, it is an ability to do something that is hotwired into your dna, you are born being able to do it.
And no matter what people might think about playing Irish diddley tunes, it is not instinct. I'm afraid that If you really think that some people have an innate ability to do it, you are, quite simply, wrong.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I must admit, michael, you confused me, because you used the word that way yourself further up this thread ...
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
"I use the term instinct in its very specific definition of an ability to do something that is not learned, it is an ability to do something that is hotwired into your dna, you are born being able to do it."
Michael, is speaking, or singing, or whistling, an 'instinct ' ? Or something you learn ?
dna is just a molecule, a piece of chemistry, it doesn't play music.
Did you mean 'hard wired' ? That's an analogy taken from computers, where you have the distinction between hardware and software.
We are not computers. For one thing, we can reproduce ourselves, biologically. Are we born with an attraction to the opposite sex and desire to have sex, or do we learn it ?
Babies don't have it. It's something that develops as we mature, and like almost everything that humans do, is a highly complex, ever-changing mixture of innate biological stuff, that's been passed to us by DNA, and social and cultural and environmental influences.
We are born with the potential to walk on two legs, but babies still have to learn how to do that, and some adults never stop learning, until they can extend that basic ability into, say, ballet dancing.
To say that being able to play Irish diddley music is an instinct, or is not an instinct, is vastly over-simplifying something that is incredibly complicated and poorly understood. Developmental biologists and similar folks have been arguing over what 'instinct' means, or is, for a century or more.
Although the term is commonly used by ordinary folk, I don't think scientists like to use it, because it has no conceptual precision. It dates from a time long before DNA was discovered, and was popular when Behaviourism was the favoured explanation for what we do.
Behaviourism was demolished, circa 1955, by Noam Chomsky, (which is why he became famous and is the most cited authority).
'Intuition' is even worse that 'instinct', when it comes to precise definition. Somebody says 'Use your intuition' and if you ask them what that is, or where it's located, there's lots of hand waving, and not much clarity...
You said something about goldfinches singing instinctively at the top of the thread...but even birds are not mechanical, or like computers, their songs are not hard-wired, they learn, so that birds in one wood will have a different collection of phrases from birds in another wood, local dialects, rather similar to regional styles of Irish tunes.
A few weeks back, there was a guy on the radio who cares for rescued fledgelings, who plays them CDs of their appropriate songs, for them to learn. Otherwise, when released, they'd have no chance of finding a mate because they'd not have learned the appropriate recognisable song.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Yes, Noam Chomsky took the debate away from the traditional nature v nurture debate, which is essentially the crux of this thread.
But there are still clear examples in nature where a delineation can be made. Bird song is one. There are two types of singers, those that hatch with their song as an innate skill, they sing a recognised song as they mature, even if they have never heard it or even ever socialised with another member of its own species. Other, blackbirds for example, learn their songs by listening, and hence have regional accents etc.
Yes, hot wired/hard wired was clumsy, sorry. But the word innate is very specific. It takes thousands of generations, possibly hundreds of thousands, to evolve an innate ability and some animals have bypassed this long process by learning things and passing this knowledge on instead. Orangutans are born with little knowledge of the forests they are born in, a fear of snakes perhaps, but this is non proven. But by the time they reach maturity, they know the when and whereabouts of hundreds of trees that fruit only once a century. This is one of the reasons orangutan re-introduction programmes are hopeless.
I know the argument is complex, but humans are not born with an innate ability to make music. It can be argued that we have an innate ability to learn and absorb our cultural surroundings, and that this innate ability is strongest in our formative years. But never in a million years would a baby, left to grow up in an isolated room with a violin, ever be able to play it.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Oh, f*ck. I just wrote a really long post about Freud and the f*cking thing ate it!!! Arrghhh!
Will repost later.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Okay, Michael, we're pretty much in agreement on most of that.
Thing is, this isn't a scientific forum. Ordinary folks use words and language in a far looser manner than scientists or philosophers, and music is more about feeling than logic.
I don't know, and I don't think anybody does know, why particular people in particular regions, have particular types of indigenous or ethnic music. It might be that there is something in the DNA that produces a tendency to favour some sounds or scales against others.
I wouldn't entirely dismiss the possibility that there's a genetic factor involved, and Irish people, growing up immersed in their local music, have an advantage. But I don't think I'd dare make any sweeping statement about that. I think nobody yet understands the subject well enough.
There is, after all, tremendous variety and variability amongst humans, as a species, so most generalisations are usually a mistake.
But back to the topic. I don't think that anyone would argue against the observation, that we finding learning new stuff easier in childhood. But the old idea that the brain became 'fixed' at some stage, has been shown to be incorrect. It keeps on re-configuring itself throughout life.
So maybe the ability to learn later in life has more to do with attitude than anything, and cultivating what the zen buddhists call 'beginners mind', (which is, essentially, retaining the openness of a child, the opposite of thinking you already know everything) means you could become moderately proficient at any age.
IMO, it's probably an attitude of wonder, curiosity, experimentation, delight in achievement, that matters most.
I've met loads of adults whose negative attitude prevents them from being able to learn anything new.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Yep, that about sums it up. I too have met loads of adults whose negative attitude prevents them from being able to learn anything new. If you can keep and cultivate the attitude of wonder, curiosity and experimentation that you had when you were a kid, then being a grown up shouldn't hinder you.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
by the way, if the session.org ever eats a post, just use the back button on your browser (works in Safari anyway). Life is full of simple solutions.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
I hit the back button and it did not salvage it. Maybe it doesn't work in Firefox.
This is a shorter version of the post that vanished in the cyberspace wormhole.
The idea of instincts has been around since the nineteenth century and is closely associated with Freud, who made it an integral part of his psychodynamic theory. Basically an instinct is a motivational force that drives people to fulfill basic desires. Freud classified things like sex, the "ego-instinct" (the desire for self-preservation), "the death instinct," and certain types of aggression as instincts, which come from a part of the unconscious he called the "id." He changed his theories quite a lot throughout his career, often changing what constituted an "instinct" but he stuck to some of these fundamentals. As a person matures, they develop what Freud called an ego and a superego, which repress and control the instincts. Neuroses then come from instincts bubbling up and being repressed via defense mechanisms which lead to neurotic behaviour.
That is a very simplified version but in any case, psychoanalytoc theory is more or less out of fashion with mainstream psychology, although it is still practiced by a minority of psychologists.* In modern scientific terminology, it's not correct terminology to use instincts to describe human behaviour but it is correct usage to describe bird migration or honeybee dances as instinctive.
Freud would probably make the case that playing music is a defense mechanism for repressed sexual desires.
*There are other psychoanalytic theories than Freud, who was very much a product of his time and place.
# Posted on September 1st 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
Jung?? Joseph Campbell??
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by pipewatcher
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
pipewatcher, You came late to the debate, so let me sum it up. Most people think that you don't have to be Jung to take up ITM.
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Is it never too late to take up an instrument and/or ITM?
hilarious! but i have read it. it seems with all this scientific talk the question should be asked "why do some people play music and others not?" i think that anyone could learn to play music well at any age, but for some reason, not everyone does
# Posted on September 3rd 2008 by pipewatcher