I'm working with my guitar ( Taylor 310 ce ) on irish music.
Some days ago I have bought the beautiful book of Frank Kilkelly about this way to play...
But Frank only explains about Jigs and reels and not about The other structures of irish tunes as Hornpipes, marches, barndances ecc...
I would like to know some guitar patterns about these other forms of Tunes.
Is there another book which explains this? or is there anybody who can send me some patterns for guitar to play all the forms of irish tunes?
It's very doubtful whether any book could ever tell you everything you need to known about playing what is aurally-transmitted melodic music which has embedded within it its own harmonic and rhythmic structures. So, harmony and rhythm instruments as backing are irrelevant to the music, as you will understand if you go to good sessions that consist entirely of melody instruments. However, harmony and rhythm instruments are with us to stay ...
The ideal way to learn the music is to go to as many good* sessions as possible and just listen, listen, listen. This is really the only way to absorb the underlying essence of the music, but will usually take quite a while (generally enjoyable). Remember that most Irish music isn't restricted to major and minor keys but extensively uses various non-major and non-minor modes which do not necessarily fit in well with "classical" harmonic progressions.
* by "good" sessions I mean those where the musicians all understand and respect the music.
The book by Chris Smith for backing of Irish/Celtic music is very well done. Not strums per se but I thought it was a great book. Explains the things mentioned by laxyhound and make similar suggestions as his.
Hi Cork
I recently created a website covering guitar accompaniament for ITM and other traditions. Mostly about chords, though I might add something about rhythmic structures later. URL is:
www.intermix.freeuk.com
Listen lots, the Chris Smith book is excellent, with a good CD to work along with (search this site for user coyotebanjo, and you will find links to his website for book exerpts and other hints), go to local concerts to watch and listen, John Doyle has a good instructional DVD out, find local sessions and listen, find local guitarists who play this music and ask questions, or better, take lessons, oh and did I mention listen? And don't be afraid to stop playing when you don't know where the tune is going, it is budding guitarists that don't know when to stop that give all of us a bad name.
Mix, that's a good site you have started there. That's nice that you have both the dots and the sound clips for people. Lots of good stuff for someone new to the music.
To learn the structures of the tunes, just play the tunes, learn to pick a few out, by dots or ear, doesn't have to be performance quality, but you will best learn to understand the structures that way....then go build your chords around them after you get it about the timing. You will also learn that knowing the tunes, or at least being able to sense the structure of the tunes while at at session is the greatest help of all.
For example, after knowing say part A, play mostly the notes but start adding a chord in here and there instead of a note. You will, hopefully, start to sense when the changes come in. It's not as hard as it sounds. Knowing the tune or an example of a tune for structure makes it much easier. It also makes it easier to understand anything else thrown your way, even tunes you never heard before.... it helps you learn to improvise, and there is much of that in backing or accompaniment once you get cooking. That's really the fun of it, making it up as you go along...within reason of course, stick with the music!
Also, record local sessions, and stick to their most common tunes, this is the water you will be later attempting to swim in, so you should know their tunes. If you can slow them down and practice to them at home all the better. You should arrive at a session knowing how to play at least adequately and not disruptively, or else the others will make you feel really bad in many cases, in many sessions. I have seen guitar players turned into mincemeat, where truly awful fiddlers or other instruments (bodhran not included!) are generally tolerated much better. Why that is, is another discussion. Possibly because guitar players many times try to play on things they don't know.... but many times, box, fiddle and flute or banjo try too, just noodling, hunting and pecking for the tune, being disruptive. So Al's advice is very on the money about stopping when you don't get it. I once had someone scold me after a set where I dropped out in the middle and then jump in (there are graceful ways to fade oneself out too, and then back in!). So I asked would he have preferred I carry on and mess up the tune...."um, I guess not" he said.
Good luck with it... with patience and true interest in the music, you can do it. check out Mix's site....very helpful.
Sugarfoot, so right.... and along those lines, the key is only half the battle. The tune is what matters. When someone asks what key will that tune be in, they are often, not always, but often headed for trouble. So many intracacies in each tune that there is never a cookie cutter recipe such as "what key" that will suit every tune. You may not even get an answer at all, or you'll be told "D" but not that it starts on a G or the second half is in E Minor etc.
In a sense an accompanist should study the tunes possibly even more than a melody player. You not only have the melody to stick to, but you have to also concentrate hard on the melody player, where they stress notes, their mood, their speed etc. and know to let them rule. Each player will be different. Also, it's important to really listen to the phrasing the melody player uses as well. It changes from player to player.
And the theory that you "follow" the melody player is not so great sounding where you lag a little behind them, it always throws the music a bit off, if you know the tunes or can sense where they are headed real quickly you don't tend to "follow" but you are "with" the tune. Sometimes though you get an inconsistent melody player, with bad timing, and it's really a rough job, you can't help but to be a little behind or even ahead of them at moments, and they will inevitably blame you (or the Bodhran player, LOL!) for their bad timing. I always like to let a melody player do a lead in if I don't know them well, or to see where their timing is at on that particular day on that particular tune. You really have to pay lots of attention, not just float off into your own world and alternate the chords in whatever key,
I'd say find some friends and just play along with them. There's no substitute for the interaction you get with others. If you aren't used to the bounces and snaps of hornpipes it might be helpful to have a friend stamp it out for you.
When listening to master performers for inspiration steer clear of the loud thrashy types and do yourself a favor: listen to Daithi Sproule, Micheal O'Domhnaill, and John Blake.
P.S. The Frank Kilkelly book is very good. I would steer clear of Sarah McQuaid's highly opinionated and over-the-top "DADGAD Book". Although his style is not one that I prefer, John Doyle's "Mad for Trad" DVD is helpful in the sense that it logically and systematically approaches chord placement. Caveat: that's exactly what I mean...it's easy to start playing "John Doyle chords" at specific parts, and that can get repetitive. The only person who can pull off "John Doyle chords" is...John Doyle so you gotta give him props.
Bear in mind that there is no cookie-cutter method to accompaniment.
Accompanying irish music on guitar
Accompanying irish music on guitar
Hello,
I'm working with my guitar ( Taylor 310 ce ) on irish music.
Some days ago I have bought the beautiful book of Frank Kilkelly about this way to play...
But Frank only explains about Jigs and reels and not about The other structures of irish tunes as Hornpipes, marches, barndances ecc...
I would like to know some guitar patterns about these other forms of Tunes.
Is there another book which explains this? or is there anybody who can send me some patterns for guitar to play all the forms of irish tunes?
Thank you very much!!!
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by CORK
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
It's very doubtful whether any book could ever tell you everything you need to known about playing what is aurally-transmitted melodic music which has embedded within it its own harmonic and rhythmic structures. So, harmony and rhythm instruments as backing are irrelevant to the music, as you will understand if you go to good sessions that consist entirely of melody instruments. However, harmony and rhythm instruments are with us to stay ...
The ideal way to learn the music is to go to as many good* sessions as possible and just listen, listen, listen. This is really the only way to absorb the underlying essence of the music, but will usually take quite a while (generally enjoyable). Remember that most Irish music isn't restricted to major and minor keys but extensively uses various non-major and non-minor modes which do not necessarily fit in well with "classical" harmonic progressions.
* by "good" sessions I mean those where the musicians all understand and respect the music.
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
The book by Chris Smith for backing of Irish/Celtic music is very well done. Not strums per se but I thought it was a great book. Explains the things mentioned by laxyhound and make similar suggestions as his.
# Posted on August 21st 2008 by CDNMoose
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
Hi Cork
I recently created a website covering guitar accompaniament for ITM and other traditions. Mostly about chords, though I might add something about rhythmic structures later. URL is:
www.intermix.freeuk.com
# Posted on August 22nd 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
Oops, didn't post the link correctly. Should be:
http://www.intermix.freeuk.com
# Posted on August 22nd 2008 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
HELLO
Thank you to everybody for the advise.
# Posted on August 22nd 2008 by CORK
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
Listen lots, the Chris Smith book is excellent, with a good CD to work along with (search this site for user coyotebanjo, and you will find links to his website for book exerpts and other hints), go to local concerts to watch and listen, John Doyle has a good instructional DVD out, find local sessions and listen, find local guitarists who play this music and ask questions, or better, take lessons, oh and did I mention listen? And don't be afraid to stop playing when you don't know where the tune is going, it is budding guitarists that don't know when to stop that give all of us a bad name.
# Posted on August 22nd 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
Mix, that's a good site you have started there. That's nice that you have both the dots and the sound clips for people. Lots of good stuff for someone new to the music.
# Posted on August 22nd 2008 by Nate Ryan
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
To learn the structures of the tunes, just play the tunes, learn to pick a few out, by dots or ear, doesn't have to be performance quality, but you will best learn to understand the structures that way....then go build your chords around them after you get it about the timing. You will also learn that knowing the tunes, or at least being able to sense the structure of the tunes while at at session is the greatest help of all.
For example, after knowing say part A, play mostly the notes but start adding a chord in here and there instead of a note. You will, hopefully, start to sense when the changes come in. It's not as hard as it sounds. Knowing the tune or an example of a tune for structure makes it much easier. It also makes it easier to understand anything else thrown your way, even tunes you never heard before.... it helps you learn to improvise, and there is much of that in backing or accompaniment once you get cooking. That's really the fun of it, making it up as you go along...within reason of course, stick with the music!
Also, record local sessions, and stick to their most common tunes, this is the water you will be later attempting to swim in, so you should know their tunes. If you can slow them down and practice to them at home all the better. You should arrive at a session knowing how to play at least adequately and not disruptively, or else the others will make you feel really bad in many cases, in many sessions. I have seen guitar players turned into mincemeat, where truly awful fiddlers or other instruments (bodhran not included!) are generally tolerated much better. Why that is, is another discussion. Possibly because guitar players many times try to play on things they don't know.... but many times, box, fiddle and flute or banjo try too, just noodling, hunting and pecking for the tune, being disruptive. So Al's advice is very on the money about stopping when you don't get it. I once had someone scold me after a set where I dropped out in the middle and then jump in (there are graceful ways to fade oneself out too, and then back in!). So I asked would he have preferred I carry on and mess up the tune...."um, I guess not" he said.
Good luck with it... with patience and true interest in the music, you can do it. check out Mix's site....very helpful.
# Posted on August 22nd 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
Learn the tunes.
Know the tunes.
The tunes are the key, everything else is superfluous, so you need a degree of humility to accompany them.
# Posted on August 22nd 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
I found this great site by my favourite guitar player Paul McSherry which gives some useful tips"
http://www.paulmcsherry.com/
You can contact him by his email I am sure if you need more
# Posted on August 22nd 2008 by eurbanjo
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
Sugarfoot, so right.... and along those lines, the key is only half the battle. The tune is what matters. When someone asks what key will that tune be in, they are often, not always, but often headed for trouble. So many intracacies in each tune that there is never a cookie cutter recipe such as "what key" that will suit every tune. You may not even get an answer at all, or you'll be told "D" but not that it starts on a G or the second half is in E Minor etc.
In a sense an accompanist should study the tunes possibly even more than a melody player. You not only have the melody to stick to, but you have to also concentrate hard on the melody player, where they stress notes, their mood, their speed etc. and know to let them rule. Each player will be different. Also, it's important to really listen to the phrasing the melody player uses as well. It changes from player to player.
And the theory that you "follow" the melody player is not so great sounding where you lag a little behind them, it always throws the music a bit off, if you know the tunes or can sense where they are headed real quickly you don't tend to "follow" but you are "with" the tune. Sometimes though you get an inconsistent melody player, with bad timing, and it's really a rough job, you can't help but to be a little behind or even ahead of them at moments, and they will inevitably blame you (or the Bodhran player, LOL!) for their bad timing. I always like to let a melody player do a lead in if I don't know them well, or to see where their timing is at on that particular day on that particular tune. You really have to pay lots of attention, not just float off into your own world and alternate the chords in whatever key,
# Posted on August 22nd 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
Thank you mix & euro banjo. Two great sites !
# Posted on August 24th 2008 by hauke
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
I'd say find some friends and just play along with them. There's no substitute for the interaction you get with others. If you aren't used to the bounces and snaps of hornpipes it might be helpful to have a friend stamp it out for you.
When listening to master performers for inspiration steer clear of the loud thrashy types and do yourself a favor: listen to Daithi Sproule, Micheal O'Domhnaill, and John Blake.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by DADGADLad
Re: Accompanying irish music on guitar
P.S. The Frank Kilkelly book is very good. I would steer clear of Sarah McQuaid's highly opinionated and over-the-top "DADGAD Book". Although his style is not one that I prefer, John Doyle's "Mad for Trad" DVD is helpful in the sense that it logically and systematically approaches chord placement. Caveat: that's exactly what I mean...it's easy to start playing "John Doyle chords" at specific parts, and that can get repetitive. The only person who can pull off "John Doyle chords" is...John Doyle so you gotta give him props.
Bear in mind that there is no cookie-cutter method to accompaniment.
# Posted on August 28th 2008 by DADGADLad