To start, I have been playing fiddle & taking lessons for about four weeks now and everything seems to be going o.k. except that when I bow, the bow bounces on the strings. My instructor seems to thing that I might be too stiff but when I try and relax it still seems to happen (although I must admit, it happens to a lesser degree). Has anyone else had this problem and could there be something else that might be contributing the this bouncing bow syndrome? Perhaps too much rosin? Too much coffee?
Probably too much coffee...
This happened to me in the beginning, but it doesn't anymore. I think it takes some time until you relax and become completely comfortable with a box under your chin and a stick in your right hand.
Just relax and play, play, play. I'm sure it will get better. At least it did for me.
I have been playing for a few years now and still get this problem, on occasion. For me, it's a nervous/self conscious thing when I take my fiddle out in certain situations e.g. being asked to play a tune solo etc. After playing a few tunes, I warm up, relax more, and I am usually ok after this.
Unless there's something obviously wrong with the way you're holding the bow, your instructor is probably correct and you just need to relax more. I know it's easier said than done sometimes.
Your bow may not be helping you -- if it's more a stick than a bow, it may be abetting you to put weight on the string with the bow without the proper relaxation, which is causing it to bounce back off the string.
Still, even if you're bowing with a literal stick off a tree, if you have good bowing technique, you could probably manage. The weight of your hand and the shift of the emphasis on and off your index finger (classically speaking) should be enough to keep the bow connected with the string. If the emphasis on weight is across the string rather than down onto it, it bounces, you see, because you're forcing it down and across rather than letting it naturally stay connected.
Also, make sure that the hair on your bow is no tighter than the diameter of a pencil between hair and stick.
If your instructor thinks that it's because of stiffness, you probably need to relax more with your bow arm. This is kind of a weird dichotomy, really. You have to keep your arm in position, with all the motion coming from the entire forearm rather than from the elbow and not the wrist (or vice versa, depending on your teacher's bowing technique), yet keep the whole arm relaxed with natural weight keeping the bow connected with the string.
Trust your teacher. S/he can see and hear you, we can't.
By the way, it's probably not a rosin problem, although a sticker rosin might help you while you go through the process of learning correct bowing technique.
And if you need encouragement, find the recording of Irish traditional music with the young James Kelly, Daithi Sproule, and Paddy O'Brien wherein James starts off a track by chuddering his bow on the very first note, not once, but twice, while Daithi and Paddy laugh in the background and James keeps shushing them to have another go. It's hysterical (and nice that they good-humoredly left the funny bit of the track in instead of editing it out), but also comforting to a fiddler having the same problem, to think that somebody like James Kelly had the same trouble with his bow occasionally!
Doing bow exercises really helps. Ask your teacher to show you the one where you do a 8 count note with one long bow for a scale, then do two notes of 8 halving the bow, then three notes of 8 counts splitting across thirds of your bow, then four notes of 8 counts quartering the bow, etc. Be sure to relax while bowing to keep the hair of the bow well connected to the string.
Mark-
I developed that problem after I had been playing for a couple of years and started doing more interesting tunes. My teacher suggested that my bow was basically a piece of crap and that I would do well to start looking for a new one. It took a while to come up with the cash, but the problem went away when I found a properly made bow; I test drove a bunch until I found one that felt right. I think my new bow is just nicely balanced; I play with it rather than in spite of it.
Apparently this is a common biomechanical problem. It plagued me, too, early on. My teacher, who was great, never did actually figure it out. Eventually, it just stopped.
Bowing exercises such as Zina suggested will help, but you might just have to give it time. Have your teacher check your bow hand (no doubt this is already part of your lesson...). You can also check your bowing in a mirror. You want to bow at a right angle to the strings.
Bowing is really tough to master. Along with everything else about playing the fiddle. (Nigel Kennedy used to buy a cheap violin every so often and smash it just to even up the score.)
I thought this topic might discuss how to make the bow bounce on purpose -- like you hear Eileen Iverson and Win Horan and others do. So once you learn to stop making your bow bounce, you can work on making it bounce when you want it to!
Sometimes bouncing bow syndrome comes from playing with your arm held too high, or at least allowing its weight to rise above where it really needs to be. You might feel it later as a tired or even sore spot on the outer top of your bowing shoulder--evidence that your upper arm is supporting more weight than it needs to.
To counteract this, try playing a series of long bow strokes on the e string. Your hand should float basically straight up and down like it's on a rope hanging from the string. If you sit on the front edge of a chair with your legs apart, your hand should end up almost in your crotch, or slightly forward between your thighs, when you're at the tip of the bow on the e string.
To me, it feels like the weight of my hand and the bow are always *laying on* the string, on up bows as well as on down bows. This weight transfers as a gentle pressing of the hairs into the string. To get that feel on an up bow, your hand needs to be relaxed and nearly limp, hanging down from the wrist even as the wrist leads the way up toward the string.
Practice all this--aiming to be acutely aware of what it feels like--on the e string until it feels comfortable. Then try it on the A string, Then the D and G. Obviously, your arm has to come up a bit, supported by the upper arm and shoulder, as your cross over to the lower pitched strings. But the idea is to retain a fair amount of that same vertical, weighted rope feel.
Another image that seems to help calm a skittish bow is to think of caressing the strings with your fingers, rather than focusing so much on the hair and stick and how goofy it feels in your hand. Close your eyes and imagine just your bow-hand index finger drawing the vibrations out of the string.
Also bear in mind that most fiddlers start off struggling to control the bow when playting nearer the frog. Try getting comfortable in the middle of the bow and then gradually increasing your range from tip to frog. The relaxed wrist and subtle finger flexion are even more important close to the frog.
Sometimes you can get what I would call a "micro-bounce". I find it's most likely to happen with a long slow quiet bow. It's almost inaudible, very quick, and I suspect it's some sort of resonance between a particular frequency of vibration of the string and a natural period of vibration (or harmonic thereof) of the bow. It doesn't happen all the time.
It's possible to record this and look at the wave form in detail on something like cooledit.
Trevor
I was plagued with that problem for a long time. Two things: I read a fiddle lesson on the internet which suggested imagining (or really placing) a largeish book between bowing elbow and side of body and then bowing. This introduces the body to the idea that the better bowing technique is to think of arm pivoting at the elbow and somehow was the missing link for me (I didn't have a teacher). The other thing was: a fellow I know showed up trying to flog a fiddle and bow and I picked up the bow which was pretty decent but much lighter than the one I was using and I realized that I really didn't have enough strength to use anything but this lovely light bow which I immediately purchased. I no longer bounce.
I'm a little puzzled by your reference to "strength" in the bowing arm. I don't think we're into weight-lifting exercises here.
Ok, if you're playing the cello or double bass where you've more tension and inertia in the strings which makes them a little slower to respond, then there is arguably a slight case for developing that little extra in the arms, but it comes naturally anyway as you're learning, you don't need to go down to the local gym. With the fiddle, it's hardly more than the weight of the bow itself on the string, you just need enough pressure from the fingers to get the tone production and to stop the bow from "skating", and there's remarkably little finger pressure on the bow involved. Volume of sound is best obtained by increasing the speed of the bow and/or playing a little closer to the bridge. Too much "strength" will stifle the tone and impede the playing.
Trevor
Mark, I've only been playing for about 6 months now, and I had the *bouncing* problem too......just to say, it stops after awhile, unless, of course, that's kind of your style ....there are some really cool fiddle players who have a bit more *bounce* in their bow than others.....
Very good idea from Will: "Another image that seems to help calm a skittish bow is to think of caressing the strings with your fingers, rather than focusing so much on the hair and stick and how goofy it feels in your hand. Close your eyes and imagine just your bow-hand index finger drawing the vibrations out of the string."
That said, bow chatter can crop up despite the best visualizations and I would agree with Romkey that mirror practice is a good idea. Whenever the bow chatter crops up (and it seems to come and go at will, although when I am practicing a lot it tends to stay away...) I look in the mirror and make sure that my bowing is absolutely straight, for whatever reason this takes care of a lot of it. Also, if you start your bowstroke by pulling in your right shoulderblade this can also smooth the stroke out.
Good luck, it's a pain where ya sit (so to speak),
PC
PS--Zina, I think that James Kelly was kidding with those false starts.
For some time now I have been trying to find a way to bounce, controllably, so that I can get those fast notes on the bounce, so to speak... so I don't want to avoid the bounce, I want to use it musically to get those cool transition notes that I often hear the best players use. It relates closely, I think, to the Scottish burr that you hear on some strathspeys, and quite often in jigs and reels as played by Lunasa, etc. Does anyone have ideass about how to acquire the controlled bounce that makes the playing so memorable? I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Bouncing Bow
Bouncing Bow
To start, I have been playing fiddle & taking lessons for about four weeks now and everything seems to be going o.k. except that when I bow, the bow bounces on the strings. My instructor seems to thing that I might be too stiff but when I try and relax it still seems to happen (although I must admit, it happens to a lesser degree). Has anyone else had this problem and could there be something else that might be contributing the this bouncing bow syndrome? Perhaps too much rosin? Too much coffee?
Thanks in advance for any help.
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by MarkD
Re: Bouncing Bow
Probably too much coffee...
This happened to me in the beginning, but it doesn't anymore. I think it takes some time until you relax and become completely comfortable with a box under your chin and a stick in your right hand.
Just relax and play, play, play. I'm sure it will get better. At least it did for me.
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by Pontus Adefjord
Re: Bouncing Bow
I have been playing for a few years now and still get this problem, on occasion. For me, it's a nervous/self conscious thing when I take my fiddle out in certain situations e.g. being asked to play a tune solo etc. After playing a few tunes, I warm up, relax more, and I am usually ok after this.
Unless there's something obviously wrong with the way you're holding the bow, your instructor is probably correct and you just need to relax more. I know it's easier said than done sometimes.
John
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by Johannes J
Re: Bouncing Bow
Your bow may not be helping you -- if it's more a stick than a bow, it may be abetting you to put weight on the string with the bow without the proper relaxation, which is causing it to bounce back off the string.
Still, even if you're bowing with a literal stick off a tree, if you have good bowing technique, you could probably manage. The weight of your hand and the shift of the emphasis on and off your index finger (classically speaking) should be enough to keep the bow connected with the string. If the emphasis on weight is across the string rather than down onto it, it bounces, you see, because you're forcing it down and across rather than letting it naturally stay connected.
Also, make sure that the hair on your bow is no tighter than the diameter of a pencil between hair and stick.
If your instructor thinks that it's because of stiffness, you probably need to relax more with your bow arm. This is kind of a weird dichotomy, really. You have to keep your arm in position, with all the motion coming from the entire forearm rather than from the elbow and not the wrist (or vice versa, depending on your teacher's bowing technique), yet keep the whole arm relaxed with natural weight keeping the bow connected with the string.
Trust your teacher. S/he can see and hear you, we can't.
By the way, it's probably not a rosin problem, although a sticker rosin might help you while you go through the process of learning correct bowing technique.
And if you need encouragement, find the recording of Irish traditional music with the young James Kelly, Daithi Sproule, and Paddy O'Brien wherein James starts off a track by chuddering his bow on the very first note, not once, but twice, while Daithi and Paddy laugh in the background and James keeps shushing them to have another go. It's hysterical (and nice that they good-humoredly left the funny bit of the track in instead of editing it out), but also comforting to a fiddler having the same problem, to think that somebody like James Kelly had the same trouble with his bow occasionally!
Doing bow exercises really helps. Ask your teacher to show you the one where you do a 8 count note with one long bow for a scale, then do two notes of 8 halving the bow, then three notes of 8 counts splitting across thirds of your bow, then four notes of 8 counts quartering the bow, etc. Be sure to relax while bowing to keep the hair of the bow well connected to the string.
Good luck!
Zina
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bouncing Bow
Mark-
I developed that problem after I had been playing for a couple of years and started doing more interesting tunes. My teacher suggested that my bow was basically a piece of crap and that I would do well to start looking for a new one. It took a while to come up with the cash, but the problem went away when I found a properly made bow; I test drove a bunch until I found one that felt right. I think my new bow is just nicely balanced; I play with it rather than in spite of it.
Batlady
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by Batlady
Re: Bouncing Bow
Apparently this is a common biomechanical problem. It plagued me, too, early on. My teacher, who was great, never did actually figure it out. Eventually, it just stopped.
Bowing exercises such as Zina suggested will help, but you might just have to give it time. Have your teacher check your bow hand (no doubt this is already part of your lesson...). You can also check your bowing in a mirror. You want to bow at a right angle to the strings.
Bowing is really tough to master. Along with everything else about playing the fiddle. (Nigel Kennedy used to buy a cheap violin every so often and smash it just to even up the score.)
I thought this topic might discuss how to make the bow bounce on purpose -- like you hear Eileen Iverson and Win Horan and others do. So once you learn to stop making your bow bounce, you can work on making it bounce when you want it to!
Good luck.
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by Romkey
Re: Bouncing Bow
Sometimes bouncing bow syndrome comes from playing with your arm held too high, or at least allowing its weight to rise above where it really needs to be. You might feel it later as a tired or even sore spot on the outer top of your bowing shoulder--evidence that your upper arm is supporting more weight than it needs to.
To counteract this, try playing a series of long bow strokes on the e string. Your hand should float basically straight up and down like it's on a rope hanging from the string. If you sit on the front edge of a chair with your legs apart, your hand should end up almost in your crotch, or slightly forward between your thighs, when you're at the tip of the bow on the e string.
To me, it feels like the weight of my hand and the bow are always *laying on* the string, on up bows as well as on down bows. This weight transfers as a gentle pressing of the hairs into the string. To get that feel on an up bow, your hand needs to be relaxed and nearly limp, hanging down from the wrist even as the wrist leads the way up toward the string.
Practice all this--aiming to be acutely aware of what it feels like--on the e string until it feels comfortable. Then try it on the A string, Then the D and G. Obviously, your arm has to come up a bit, supported by the upper arm and shoulder, as your cross over to the lower pitched strings. But the idea is to retain a fair amount of that same vertical, weighted rope feel.
Another image that seems to help calm a skittish bow is to think of caressing the strings with your fingers, rather than focusing so much on the hair and stick and how goofy it feels in your hand. Close your eyes and imagine just your bow-hand index finger drawing the vibrations out of the string.
Also bear in mind that most fiddlers start off struggling to control the bow when playting nearer the frog. Try getting comfortable in the middle of the bow and then gradually increasing your range from tip to frog. The relaxed wrist and subtle finger flexion are even more important close to the frog.
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Bouncing Bow
play thru it!
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by geoffmc
Re: Bouncing Bow
Sometimes you can get what I would call a "micro-bounce". I find it's most likely to happen with a long slow quiet bow. It's almost inaudible, very quick, and I suspect it's some sort of resonance between a particular frequency of vibration of the string and a natural period of vibration (or harmonic thereof) of the bow. It doesn't happen all the time.
It's possible to record this and look at the wave form in detail on something like cooledit.
Trevor
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Bouncing Bow
no matter how hard i try,it seems impossible to get the bow to bounce more than twice after hurling it on the ground.
where am i going wrong?
# Posted on July 17th 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Bouncing Bow
you have to mean it, Dave. *grin*
# Posted on July 17th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bouncing Bow
trust you to hit the frog on da head!
# Posted on July 17th 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Bouncing Bow
I was plagued with that problem for a long time. Two things: I read a fiddle lesson on the internet which suggested imagining (or really placing) a largeish book between bowing elbow and side of body and then bowing. This introduces the body to the idea that the better bowing technique is to think of arm pivoting at the elbow and somehow was the missing link for me (I didn't have a teacher). The other thing was: a fellow I know showed up trying to flog a fiddle and bow and I picked up the bow which was pretty decent but much lighter than the one I was using and I realized that I really didn't have enough strength to use anything but this lovely light bow which I immediately purchased. I no longer bounce.
# Posted on July 18th 2003 by stewardy
Re: Bouncing Bow
I'm a little puzzled by your reference to "strength" in the bowing arm. I don't think we're into weight-lifting exercises here.
Ok, if you're playing the cello or double bass where you've more tension and inertia in the strings which makes them a little slower to respond, then there is arguably a slight case for developing that little extra in the arms, but it comes naturally anyway as you're learning, you don't need to go down to the local gym. With the fiddle, it's hardly more than the weight of the bow itself on the string, you just need enough pressure from the fingers to get the tone production and to stop the bow from "skating", and there's remarkably little finger pressure on the bow involved. Volume of sound is best obtained by increasing the speed of the bow and/or playing a little closer to the bridge. Too much "strength" will stifle the tone and impede the playing.
Trevor
# Posted on July 19th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Bouncing Bow
yes,in the words of late string player :'the more you press,the less sound comes out'
# Posted on July 19th 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Bouncing Bow
Mark, I've only been playing for about 6 months now, and I had the *bouncing* problem too......just to say, it stops after awhile, unless, of course, that's kind of your style
....there are some really cool fiddle players who have a bit more *bounce* in their bow than others..... 
# Posted on July 19th 2003 by BluFiddle
Re: Bouncing Bow
A controlled bounce can be another way of playing those fast triplets.
Trevor
# Posted on July 19th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Bouncing Bow
Mark,
Very good idea from Will: "Another image that seems to help calm a skittish bow is to think of caressing the strings with your fingers, rather than focusing so much on the hair and stick and how goofy it feels in your hand. Close your eyes and imagine just your bow-hand index finger drawing the vibrations out of the string."
That said, bow chatter can crop up despite the best visualizations and I would agree with Romkey that mirror practice is a good idea. Whenever the bow chatter crops up (and it seems to come and go at will, although when I am practicing a lot it tends to stay away...) I look in the mirror and make sure that my bowing is absolutely straight, for whatever reason this takes care of a lot of it. Also, if you start your bowstroke by pulling in your right shoulderblade this can also smooth the stroke out.
Good luck, it's a pain where ya sit (so to speak),
PC
PS--Zina, I think that James Kelly was kidding with those false starts.
# Posted on July 20th 2003 by allezlesbleus
Re: Bouncing Bow
When I met this problem, I tried to make the bow bounce and so get it under control. It certainly worked for most of the time anyhow.
# Posted on July 20th 2003 by Susie-Lee
Re: Bouncing Bow
For some time now I have been trying to find a way to bounce, controllably, so that I can get those fast notes on the bounce, so to speak... so I don't want to avoid the bounce, I want to use it musically to get those cool transition notes that I often hear the best players use. It relates closely, I think, to the Scottish burr that you hear on some strathspeys, and quite often in jigs and reels as played by Lunasa, etc. Does anyone have ideass about how to acquire the controlled bounce that makes the playing so memorable? I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Sudsy
# Posted on April 9th 2007 by Sudsy