I've decided it's time to come out on this site! Whilst I'd be happy to list my current top ten Scottish Fiddlers, I'm less comfortable in naming a top ten of current Irish Fiddlers.
If that list was to include say Kevin Burke - what CD should I be listening to?
You get the picture! Help! This is a sad but really deserving case, in need of education. Not too much mocking though - this has not been an easy decision - with possible life changing implications.
(With apologies in advance if this newcomer has missed a subject already done to death)
Well, define what you mean by Top Ten, first. Most recorded? Most popular? Most traditional? Most modern? Most records sold? I mean, top ten is a pretty personal list for each person...
My turn to come out of the closet and admit that I'm not really a fan of Kevin Burke... ... I know lots of people are, and I can see that the humour of his playing is very appealing. But it's a bit busy for me. It all depends on what qualities you most enjoy. My recommendations would include John Carty, Oisin MacDiarmada and Caoimhin O Raghallaigh (formerly known as Kevin O'Reilly). John Carty has a great album 'Yeah, that's all it is' with Arty McGlynn - he also has a banjo album. Oisin has several albums, all lovely. Caoimhin has one just out - he's playing in duet with Mick O'Brien on pipes though, so it's not easy to hear him cleanly, if that's what you're after. But he's a unique and very soulful musician with a lovely light touch.
Martin Hayes might or might not be to your taste but he *is* a fantastic player... (and the tunes he plays are very popular). Tommy Potts is a one-off genius you should definately hear... and at that point, I'll have to hand you over to a fiddle player, since I'm not one. Those are just my personal favourites, as a civilian...
Yeah, 10 most influential, 10 most representative of the breadth and depth of Irish fiddling?
Besides, you're better off learning from live players, not recordings. Find someone who learned from someone, who learned from someone else. That said, here's my list of CDs I'd recommend to anyone wanting to understand a bit of Irish trad fiddling:
Ceol an Claire (Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, Joe Ryan, John Kelly, and Patrick Kelly)
Sweeney's Dream (Kevin Burke)
Bothy Band 1975 (Bothy Band)
Mist Covered Mountain (DeDanann, Frankie Gavin)
and
Eileen Ivers (Eileen Ivers)
But then you'd also need to listen to *everything* by Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, Kevin Doherty, Kevin Burke, Eileen Ivers, Tommy Peoples, Frankie Gavin, Martin Hayes, Mairead Mahonaigh, Ciaran Tourish, Tom Morrow, James Cullinan, James Kelly, Michael Coleman, John Vesey, Seamus Connolly, Eugene O'Donnell, Liz Carroll, Eileen Ivers, Sean Smyth, Tony Linnane, Kevin Glackin, Tommy Potts, Manus McGuire, Sean Keane, Martin Mulvihill, Brendan Mulvihill, Brian Conway, Liz Knowles, Aly Bain, Johnny Cunningham, Winnie Horan, Paul O' Shaughnessy, Brendan McGlinchey, Desi Donnelly, Nollag Casey, Liz Doherty, Matt Cranitch, and the whole lot of the rest of them.
Thanks for the tips so far.
Agree your point Will about listening to live music, preferably from source. Unfortunately, in the case of Irish fiddlers that's not possible for me,for many reasons, so have to rely on recorded or broadcast material although I know from personal experience how deceptive that can sometimes be. But a great list to be going on with. (Just to show I realise how difficult it can be - Aly Bain and Johhny Cunningham are both 'tartan' fiddlers and neither would be on my own current top ten Scottish Fiddlers list - albeit close.)
Brings me nicely on to -
So of course I realise it's very personal Zina. I'm interested in those players who would find their way on to most fiddler's top ten list, based primarily on the twin criteria of style and technique. I'm afraid I'm from the old school who believe that these are the tools all players strive to acquire and perfect. How and to what music they are subsequently applied is left to the player's and subsequently listener's discretion. I'm hoping a consensus will emerge.
I'd rather rely on the advice, knowledge and judgement of members than advertising and PR - hence the question. (and would welcome your views)
Although I know he's not everyone's cup of tea Helen, I share your views about Martin Hayes. Came across him some years ago already tagged 'The fastest fiddler in the West'. He has the tools but shows restraint and isn't frightened to experiment - sometimes more successfully than others. Nice guy too - only toowilling to share tips, criticisms and good times with mere scrapers. Just made the mistake of becoming too successful for some.
Hmmm. Well, my own list of ten...though I think you're probably not going to be able to truly get a consensus (and I say that hoping that everyone will try to jump in and prove me wrong), as style and technique are also intensely personal to each person, and it's impossible to say that one style and one technique is going to be definitively superior to another, even while preferring one over another. All the fiddlers I most admire are very different to each other, yet all are superb fiddlers. It's the only thing that gives me hope that I may in my own way someday be at least listenable to!
Paddy Glackin
James Kelly
Bobby Casey
Tommy Peoples
Martin Hayes
Kevin Burke
Frankie Gavin
Liz Carroll
Paddy Fahey (though he has, insofar as I know, cut no CDs, and the only things I've ever heard are tapes from his concerts -- still, just on the basis of his tunes, he's on my list)
Sean Smyth
As Will says, though, best to listen to all the rest of them as well!
Glad you brought this topic up, fifer. I am in need of an education as well and am interested in what our fiddling session members like in other fiddlers. I am only just now becoming able to tell different fiddling styles apart. At the moment I am listening to Brian Conway and Kevin Crehan. ( Any thoughts or opinions on these two?) I do really like Martin Hayes, but am disappointed when I try to play along with a particular tune and realize he's playing in a different key (some would say the wrong key) than what I have learned that tune in.
Well, I'm personally quite fond of a shorter, more separated bowing style, but then, I also like the Clare long-bowing as well, so you can take that one for what it is. And I love the flash and brilliance of the whole Donegal thing as embodied by the Glackin brothers and James Byrne, but also find quite a bit to like in the rather somber, darker East Galway sound and more minor tunes, too (something that Paddy Fahey's tunes have in abundance). That same precision, flash and brilliance is what attracts me to both James Kelly and Liz Carroll. Oisin is also on my longer list, Helen, though I suppose what he does in the next forty or fifty years will tell us whether he'll be one of the greats (which I think he probably will, if only on the strength of how many different settings of Mason's Apron the guy plays!).
Kevin Burke has a lovely, graceful, well-ornamented sound, but I also like the authority and precision of James Kelly's ornaments. Tommy Peoples pretty much stands on his own, though I also love the way his daughter Siobhan plays as well.
Hmm. This probably isn't helping you much, is it, Andee? *grin* To add to that, what I hear in, say, Kevin Burke's playing is probably different than what Will hears in it. (Though if it were me, I'd go with what Will says, as he's got a good 15-20 years on me as a fiddler.)
It's kind of an interesting exercise, playing along with Martin Hayes and other players who change up keys. It shows you how well you know the actual tune (rather than the fingerings), for one thing!
Zina--you are helping me actually. I value your opinion very much. I see what you mean about a shorter, more separated style. Brian Conway is definitely very smooth and sleek, beautiful, though. I do like the energy of a more jagged style as well...
Well, James Kelly talks about mainly getting power (as does Sean Smyth), mainly through bowing technique. He even holds his bow differently and teaches it that way at his workshop. Sean told us at the last workshop I saw him at that he likes to learn tunes with one bow per note, and then when he knows the tune, he changes it up as the tune requires. He says he feels that you can get more power using single bows whenever possible.
Plus, it's not necessarily "shorter", now that I come to think of it. A faster longer bow often translates to lots more power to the sound.
I don't know as I actually have an opinion yet, Andee! Right now it's all good to me...I can't *play* it any way, but I love it all, really.
It's also important to listen to other players, not just fiddlers, for what they bring to the music. Singers, fluters, and whistle players for their everchanging sense of phrasing, box for melodic (even chromatic) variations and rhythm vamping, banjo for ridiculous places to put triplets , pipes for drones and flow, and so on. And individual players--the inventiveness of Bobby Casey, the fluidity of Josie McDermott, the intensity of Seamus Tansey, the sheer joy of Kevin Crawford and Tom Doorley, the tinge of sorrow behind Tommy Peoples and Paddy Keenan, Eileen Ivers' outrageous sense of timing and precision, Kevin Burke's unstoppable pulse...you get the idea.
Some of my favorite ideas about specifc tunes come from learning them off of pipers, box players, even piano. It forces you to learn the tune, rather than your given instrument's strengths and weaknesses with that tune.
This is also why I included some "non Irish" fiddlers in my earlier post--listen to Aly Bain's setting of Farewell to Erin or Star of Munster--very different from what you'd likely hear in Ennis or Galway, and worthwhile just for that. Not that you have to incorporate everything you hear, but I think it helps to listen to a wide range of music on fiddle. Even as an Irish fiddler, I'd count among my influences some modicum of listening to Stephane Grapelli, Byron Berline, Darol Anger, James Bryan, and Benny Thomasson.
On bowing: Lots of fiddlers talk about learning tunes with single bow strokes and then letting the slurs creep in as needed. That works. In a recent workshop, Cait Reed suggested just the opposite--string whole phrases together on a single bow, from tip to frog and back again, in part to avoid relying too much on single bows. (Also in part to loosen up your long bow approach, finding ways to accent notes in the middle of a long slur, etc.) In the long run, I think it helps to use both ideas, rather than being rooted in any one mind set (unless you really want to focus just on the East Clare long-bow style, say, or the West Donegal single-bow style).
And - if you have the energy - get a hold of "The Brass Fiddle" - generously loaned to me recently and a real source of inspiration - which features such greats of the Donegal tradition as Con Cassidy, Vincent Campbell and others whose names are spoken of in whispers.
Also a recent favourite album of mine, Jesse Smith's "Jigs and Reels". Very accomplished, energetic playing!
Again, thanks to all. Some great pointers and players to follow up on. Also appreciated those comments which tried to highlight the general playing characteristics thought to differentiate the different regional styles.
Off to keep an appointment with my (friendly - it says on the blurb) bank manager.
Hands Up - SOS Time!
Hands Up - SOS Time!
I've decided it's time to come out on this site! Whilst I'd be happy to list my current top ten Scottish Fiddlers, I'm less comfortable in naming a top ten of current Irish Fiddlers.
If that list was to include say Kevin Burke - what CD should I be listening to?
You get the picture! Help! This is a sad but really deserving case, in need of education. Not too much mocking though - this has not been an easy decision - with possible life changing implications.
(With apologies in advance if this newcomer has missed a subject already done to death)
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by fifer
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Well, define what you mean by Top Ten, first. Most recorded? Most popular? Most traditional? Most modern? Most records sold? I mean, top ten is a pretty personal list for each person...
Zina
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
My turn to come out of the closet and admit that I'm not really a fan of Kevin Burke... ... I know lots of people are, and I can see that the humour of his playing is very appealing. But it's a bit busy for me. It all depends on what qualities you most enjoy. My recommendations would include John Carty, Oisin MacDiarmada and Caoimhin O Raghallaigh (formerly known as Kevin O'Reilly). John Carty has a great album 'Yeah, that's all it is' with Arty McGlynn - he also has a banjo album. Oisin has several albums, all lovely. Caoimhin has one just out - he's playing in duet with Mick O'Brien on pipes though, so it's not easy to hear him cleanly, if that's what you're after. But he's a unique and very soulful musician with a lovely light touch.
Martin Hayes might or might not be to your taste but he *is* a fantastic player... (and the tunes he plays are very popular). Tommy Potts is a one-off genius you should definately hear... and at that point, I'll have to hand you over to a fiddle player, since I'm not one. Those are just my personal favourites, as a civilian...
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Nell
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Yeah, 10 most influential, 10 most representative of the breadth and depth of Irish fiddling?
Besides, you're better off learning from live players, not recordings. Find someone who learned from someone, who learned from someone else. That said, here's my list of CDs I'd recommend to anyone wanting to understand a bit of Irish trad fiddling:
Ceol an Claire (Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, Joe Ryan, John Kelly, and Patrick Kelly)
Sweeney's Dream (Kevin Burke)
Bothy Band 1975 (Bothy Band)
Mist Covered Mountain (DeDanann, Frankie Gavin)
and
Eileen Ivers (Eileen Ivers)
But then you'd also need to listen to *everything* by Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, Kevin Doherty, Kevin Burke, Eileen Ivers, Tommy Peoples, Frankie Gavin, Martin Hayes, Mairead Mahonaigh, Ciaran Tourish, Tom Morrow, James Cullinan, James Kelly, Michael Coleman, John Vesey, Seamus Connolly, Eugene O'Donnell, Liz Carroll, Eileen Ivers, Sean Smyth, Tony Linnane, Kevin Glackin, Tommy Potts, Manus McGuire, Sean Keane, Martin Mulvihill, Brendan Mulvihill, Brian Conway, Liz Knowles, Aly Bain, Johnny Cunningham, Winnie Horan, Paul O' Shaughnessy, Brendan McGlinchey, Desi Donnelly, Nollag Casey, Liz Doherty, Matt Cranitch, and the whole lot of the rest of them.
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Thanks for the tips so far.
Agree your point Will about listening to live music, preferably from source. Unfortunately, in the case of Irish fiddlers that's not possible for me,for many reasons, so have to rely on recorded or broadcast material although I know from personal experience how deceptive that can sometimes be. But a great list to be going on with. (Just to show I realise how difficult it can be - Aly Bain and Johhny Cunningham are both 'tartan' fiddlers and neither would be on my own current top ten Scottish Fiddlers list - albeit close.)
Brings me nicely on to -
So of course I realise it's very personal Zina. I'm interested in those players who would find their way on to most fiddler's top ten list, based primarily on the twin criteria of style and technique. I'm afraid I'm from the old school who believe that these are the tools all players strive to acquire and perfect. How and to what music they are subsequently applied is left to the player's and subsequently listener's discretion. I'm hoping a consensus will emerge.
I'd rather rely on the advice, knowledge and judgement of members than advertising and PR - hence the question. (and would welcome your views)
Although I know he's not everyone's cup of tea Helen, I share your views about Martin Hayes. Came across him some years ago already tagged 'The fastest fiddler in the West'. He has the tools but shows restraint and isn't frightened to experiment - sometimes more successfully than others. Nice guy too - only toowilling to share tips, criticisms and good times with mere scrapers. Just made the mistake of becoming too successful for some.
Ron
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by fifer
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Hmmm. Well, my own list of ten...though I think you're probably not going to be able to truly get a consensus (and I say that hoping that everyone will try to jump in and prove me wrong), as style and technique are also intensely personal to each person, and it's impossible to say that one style and one technique is going to be definitively superior to another, even while preferring one over another. All the fiddlers I most admire are very different to each other, yet all are superb fiddlers. It's the only thing that gives me hope that I may in my own way someday be at least listenable to!
Paddy Glackin
James Kelly
Bobby Casey
Tommy Peoples
Martin Hayes
Kevin Burke
Frankie Gavin
Liz Carroll
Paddy Fahey (though he has, insofar as I know, cut no CDs, and the only things I've ever heard are tapes from his concerts -- still, just on the basis of his tunes, he's on my list)
Sean Smyth
As Will says, though, best to listen to all the rest of them as well!
zls
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Glad you brought this topic up, fifer. I am in need of an education as well and am interested in what our fiddling session members like in other fiddlers. I am only just now becoming able to tell different fiddling styles apart. At the moment I am listening to Brian Conway and Kevin Crehan. ( Any thoughts or opinions on these two?) I do really like Martin Hayes, but am disappointed when I try to play along with a particular tune and realize he's playing in a different key (some would say the wrong key) than what I have learned that tune in.
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Andee
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Well, I'm personally quite fond of a shorter, more separated bowing style, but then, I also like the Clare long-bowing as well, so you can take that one for what it is. And I love the flash and brilliance of the whole Donegal thing as embodied by the Glackin brothers and James Byrne, but also find quite a bit to like in the rather somber, darker East Galway sound and more minor tunes, too (something that Paddy Fahey's tunes have in abundance). That same precision, flash and brilliance is what attracts me to both James Kelly and Liz Carroll. Oisin is also on my longer list, Helen, though I suppose what he does in the next forty or fifty years will tell us whether he'll be one of the greats (which I think he probably will, if only on the strength of how many different settings of Mason's Apron the guy plays!).
Kevin Burke has a lovely, graceful, well-ornamented sound, but I also like the authority and precision of James Kelly's ornaments. Tommy Peoples pretty much stands on his own, though I also love the way his daughter Siobhan plays as well.
Hmm. This probably isn't helping you much, is it, Andee? *grin* To add to that, what I hear in, say, Kevin Burke's playing is probably different than what Will hears in it. (Though if it were me, I'd go with what Will says, as he's got a good 15-20 years on me as a fiddler.)
It's kind of an interesting exercise, playing along with Martin Hayes and other players who change up keys. It shows you how well you know the actual tune (rather than the fingerings), for one thing!
zls
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Zina--you are helping me actually. I value your opinion very much. I see what you mean about a shorter, more separated style. Brian Conway is definitely very smooth and sleek, beautiful, though. I do like the energy of a more jagged style as well...
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Andee
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Well, James Kelly talks about mainly getting power (as does Sean Smyth), mainly through bowing technique. He even holds his bow differently and teaches it that way at his workshop. Sean told us at the last workshop I saw him at that he likes to learn tunes with one bow per note, and then when he knows the tune, he changes it up as the tune requires. He says he feels that you can get more power using single bows whenever possible.
Plus, it's not necessarily "shorter", now that I come to think of it. A faster longer bow often translates to lots more power to the sound.
I don't know as I actually have an opinion yet, Andee! Right now it's all good to me...I can't *play* it any way, but I love it all, really.
zls
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
It's also important to listen to other players, not just fiddlers, for what they bring to the music. Singers, fluters, and whistle players for their everchanging sense of phrasing, box for melodic (even chromatic) variations and rhythm vamping, banjo for ridiculous places to put triplets
, pipes for drones and flow, and so on. And individual players--the inventiveness of Bobby Casey, the fluidity of Josie McDermott, the intensity of Seamus Tansey, the sheer joy of Kevin Crawford and Tom Doorley, the tinge of sorrow behind Tommy Peoples and Paddy Keenan, Eileen Ivers' outrageous sense of timing and precision, Kevin Burke's unstoppable pulse...you get the idea.
Some of my favorite ideas about specifc tunes come from learning them off of pipers, box players, even piano. It forces you to learn the tune, rather than your given instrument's strengths and weaknesses with that tune.
This is also why I included some "non Irish" fiddlers in my earlier post--listen to Aly Bain's setting of Farewell to Erin or Star of Munster--very different from what you'd likely hear in Ennis or Galway, and worthwhile just for that. Not that you have to incorporate everything you hear, but I think it helps to listen to a wide range of music on fiddle. Even as an Irish fiddler, I'd count among my influences some modicum of listening to Stephane Grapelli, Byron Berline, Darol Anger, James Bryan, and Benny Thomasson.
On bowing: Lots of fiddlers talk about learning tunes with single bow strokes and then letting the slurs creep in as needed. That works. In a recent workshop, Cait Reed suggested just the opposite--string whole phrases together on a single bow, from tip to frog and back again, in part to avoid relying too much on single bows. (Also in part to loosen up your long bow approach, finding ways to accent notes in the middle of a long slur, etc.) In the long run, I think it helps to use both ideas, rather than being rooted in any one mind set (unless you really want to focus just on the East Clare long-bow style, say, or the West Donegal single-bow style).
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Don't forget John Doherty. He's amazing. His pipe imitations on "The Floating Bow" album sounds more like pipes than the pipes themself.
I had a few other suggestions, but they're all listed already.
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Pontus Adefjord
Brian Rooney
Don't forget Brian Rooney.
And - if you have the energy - get a hold of "The Brass Fiddle" - generously loaned to me recently and a real source of inspiration - which features such greats of the Donegal tradition as Con Cassidy, Vincent Campbell and others whose names are spoken of in whispers.
Also a recent favourite album of mine, Jesse Smith's "Jigs and Reels". Very accomplished, energetic playing!
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
...or Mick Finn!!
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Curious to know, fifer, who the 10 Scottish fiddlers are who are better than Aly Bain & Johnny Cunningham.
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by Kenny
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
Again, thanks to all. Some great pointers and players to follow up on. Also appreciated those comments which tried to highlight the general playing characteristics thought to differentiate the different regional styles.
Off to keep an appointment with my (friendly - it says on the blurb) bank manager.
# Posted on July 15th 2003 by fifer
Re: Hands Up - SOS Time!
"The Brass Fiddle", oh that's a great recording, thanks for the reminder, Aidan, I've got to have a listen to that one again.
zls
# Posted on July 16th 2003 by Zina Lee